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View Full Version : 3 questions -- Janduin, Rand's Power, Armies of the World


fisher80
11-15-2010, 03:02 PM
Hi folks, I have 3 questions/thoughts after finishing ToM, looked back and didn't see these questions really discussed too much/at all, but sorry if this stuff has already been hashed out and i just missed it.

1. Didn't Rand's Dad Janduin go into the blight after Tigraine died? So maybe he's now a Red Aiel and still has a role to play. Maybe he can even channel -- didn't have the spark but maybe could learn. Or maybe Ishamael just has him imprisoned somewhere up there. Anyone else think we'll see him again?

2. Was Rand's super One Power display at Maradon ever explained? It seems like he was channeling at at least Callandor level (if not more) given that he laid waste to ~50,000 trollocs. Doesn't he say after the battle that he "had help"? Was this the Creator? Seems 4 possibilities...
--1. Rand's just that powerful now, has sa'angreal level channeling ability now, without even using one directly.
--2. Creator is able to lend Rand aid if Rand asks for it, though Rand seems to hint in the text that there's some limit to this, maybe how often? (Also, didn't the Creator possibly lend Rand aid at the end of TEoTW when he killed the trollocs at Tarwin's Gap?)
--3. Was he using Callandor?
--4. Was Lews Therin this strong? Seems unlikely. Rand now has full access to Lews Therin's knowledge and ability with weaves, but being re-integrated with Lews Therin shouldn't make Rand stronger should it? I always thought they were equal strength.

3. What armies did Rand bring with him to Maradon? I know he had Bashere's small force, but did he also bring the Legion of the Dragon? This was never clear. It seems that he had more than Bashere's 9,000 Saldeaens since they pushed the trollocs back to the fortifications.
Also, where are all the Aiel armies? It seems only an unspecified group came to the Fields of Merrilor from Tear, and they are camped with Egwene. What's up with this? Are the Legion of the Dragon at the Fields -- text never said. In fact, anyone have a list of what armies are at the Feilds and which are conspicuously absent?
Anyone have guesses at the size of each army in Randland, including the Seanchan, maybe the Seanchan have ~250,000 troops total including locals?

Thanks for your resposnes!!

frenchie
11-15-2010, 03:06 PM
As to #1, he was run through by a man in the blight who looked exactly like Shaiel (Lord Luc). So it is reallllllllllllllllllllly unlikely that Janduin is going to make a sudden reappearance.

morat'corlm
11-15-2010, 03:09 PM
Didn't Rand's Dad Janduin go into the blight after Tigraine died?Those who returned said he was killed by a man, though. They said Janduin claimed this man looked like Shaiel, and he would not raise his spear when the man ran him throughI.e., he was killed by Luc.
Was Rand's super One Power display at Maradon ever explained?No.
Also, where are all the Aiel armies? [...] Are the Legion of the Dragon at the FieldsGood question. They've been missing for several books now.maybe the Seanchan have ~250,000 troops total including localsThe Seanchan almost certainly have a lot more people than that.

finn
11-15-2010, 03:43 PM
2. Was Rand's super One Power display at Maradon ever explained? It seems like he was channeling at at least Callandor level (if not more) given that he laid waste to ~50,000 trollocs. Doesn't he say after the battle that he "had help"? Was this the Creator? Seems 4 possibilities...
--1. Rand's just that powerful now, has sa'angreal level channeling ability now, without even using one directly.
--4. Was Lews Therin this strong? Seems unlikely. Rand now has full access to Lews Therin's knowledge and ability with weaves, but being re-integrated with Lews Therin shouldn't make Rand stronger should it? I always thought they were equal strength.
I'm leaning with 1. Rand held more of the power than ever before with the access key at Dragonmount. Might have leveled up. Male channellers gain strength differently from women.

Lews Therin had the power to create Dragonmount btw, the highest mountain(volcano) in the world. I think he would have killed more than 50k doing that at Maradon, including himself of course.

Gareth Tomlinson
11-16-2010, 01:50 AM
1. Killed ny Lord Luc/Slayer

2.I saw it as he was more efficient in the use of his weaves as he is now in Sync with LTT. Maybe the pattern is upping his power and his general taveren nature, to get the will of the pattern done so close to the Last Battle (e.g. Rands scene in the White Tower where no one bar Egwene could talk due to Rand's strong taveren nature).

3. Not sure, does it mention in TGS how many troops he has prior to marching into Arad Doman?

skaywalker
11-16-2010, 04:00 AM
Anyone have guesses at the size of each army in Randland, including the Seanchan, maybe the Seanchan have ~250,000 troops total including locals?

The Seanchan lost an army of 150-200,000 in Almoth Plain. Then their general told Iturald that they now will send even a bigger army to deal with the domani. And this is only in the western front. The Seanchan had positioned huge armies for an attack against Illian and also there are other smaller armies in Altara guarding the northern borders. So I'll guess that they could easily have at least 400-500,000 troops

Lord of tomorrow
12-13-2010, 04:26 PM
The armies of the seanchan are way more than 250 000 soldiers.
We are being told in the knife of dreams that the seanchan have an army going for arad doman that numbers in more than 300 000 soldiers. 100 000 soldiers are at the border of altara-ilian that acts as a buffer and as a guarding force against anything that murandy or andor would send against them. We are being told there is an army in illian bent on qounqering. This army is almost certainly way larger than the army that acts like a buffer or a guarding force. I believe it to be at the least 200 000 men but this is a rought estimate. The only thing that gives me something to go bye here is what they sent to arad doman before and the army that acts like a buffer. Numbers could easily vary between 100 000-300 000 soldiers.
However we know of forces that numbers at the least 500 000 by this count. This is the armies we know of. I would put the seanchan at numbers way more than this. Why send everything they got against illian and araddoman-seems unlikely.

Lord of tomorrow
12-13-2010, 04:50 PM
As for the army of shadowspawn that attacked Maradon-this is entirely built upon speculation.
First off we have seen 200 ashaman hold off 40 000 aiel with more than 400 wise ones who can channel.
Also we have seen 50 ashaman with 5000 soldiers hold off 50 000 seanchan soliders with at least 100 damane.
Now with Ituralde you have one of the great captains with 100 ashaman and his 40 000 soliders barely able to hold off an army of shadowspawn. This i believe gives us an rough estimate at the numbers that were assaulting Maradon.
This army should have at the least 250 000+ men.
Then we are being told that there be quite the reinforcements coming that would have taken Maradon if not Rand had stepped in and saved the day. The reinforcements put there army many times the one that HAD assaulten Maradon-this would seem to indicate an army numbering in about a million.
However when we here of the numbers of dead trollocs we are being told that tens of thousands of trollocs were dead-we would have heard of the hundred of thousands dead i belive if the army really numbers in 1 million. This is a bit confucing
We have seen Ituralde with an army of 100 000 with no channelers beating an army of 200 000 thousand seanshan with a 100 damane?. Surely this great captain can hold off 200 000 thousand shadowspawn with an army of 40 000 and 100 ashaman to boost behind fortifications?
We were also told that Rand "was like an entire army of channelers" when he trashed the shadowspawn army.
Going by all of this i still put the army of shadowspawn at nearly 1 million.
That is the army that comes to mind. However if we keep it on the low side then the trolloc army that assaulted Maradon had 150 000 soldiers. And the reinforcements that were many times this number would then be lets say 4 times as large. Then we get an army numbering at 600 000 shadowspawn that - attacked Rand.
This is THE lowest number i can think of when you have Ituralde with his men and ashaman behind fortifications doing there best tho hold. The army that attacked Rand seems to incredible to believe almost but if the statement that it was many times the number that assaulted Maradon is correct- then it numbers at the very lowest at 600 000 but probably more as i noted before.

Lord of tomorrow
12-13-2010, 05:14 PM
As for other armies in the land.
I belive Perrins army is numbering 90 000 soliders at the least. We have been told that he had force 70 000 strong when he had ended up with the whitecloacs and after he had been to see Elayne.
His numbers have increased since then. Alliandre and Mayne had about 1 thousand soldiers each. But we were being told that Perrin asked them to bring whatever they could from there lands to join him. He also asked this of the two rivers.
Surely Ghealdan can bring fouth an army way larger than merely a thousand strong. Mayne as well even though it is only a city state.
The numbers they bring certainly brings Perrins army up to 90 000 strong at the least.
70-90 thousand soldiers do i put the legion of the dragon at. In a crown of swords we are being told that bashere can only bring 15 000 soldiers-because they are the ones that are trained and have weapons-however we are being told that they number way more even then.
There numbers are being scooped up by ashaman looking for channelers and are being sent to bashere legion of dragon camp. We know that only 1-2 procent of the population can channel-we know that the black tower holds at the least 800 men probably more like 900+-so going by this i put the numbers at 70-90k.
The aiel have here in the westlands a force of 400 000 or more. In the waist there should be reinforcements to call fourth as well should Rand like to. Not to many but he should be able to muster 400-500 k aiel in total.
60 000-70 000 soldiers at the least for illian,80- 90 000 for tear.
Carhien should have 40 000 at least. We see 6 houses muster an army of 20 000 probably when meeting Elayne. Surely there are more than 6 houses in Carhien-we know that there are. 25-30 thousand soldiers for the band of the red hand. 140-150 thousand soldiers for Andor.
Egwene have with Brynes men plus the soldiers under Guyborn an army that likely numbers at 110 000 soldiers at the least. More than 50 000 soldiers under Bryne and nearly 50 000 under Guyborn. Probably well more than 50 000 now under Bryne.

Juan
12-13-2010, 05:21 PM
@Lord of tomorrow
Keep in mind though that against the Seanchan, Ituralde could always sort of choose the battlefield and fight there. He had little flexibility in this situation, where he was to defend Maradon. Also note that the Shadow army had Dreadlords of its own, and Trollocs are stronger than humans. They had Myrdraals too. And when you have the Trollocs linked to the Myrdraal, the Trollocs are even more efficient fighting units than regular Trollocs. They also had Draghkar flying in as distractions (and although they're not as good fighters as they are assassins, they are still pretty effective distractions). Lastly, note that as great a general as Ituralde is, as he had noted to Rand before, he had never faced Shadowspawn before. So even though he had an amazing performance and held off an army against ridiculous odds, this was his "test/learning" battle. Ituralde is a quick learner, and now that he knows what he's up against and how Shadowspawn act, think, and fight, you can be sure he'll be even more effective next time he faces them.

Lord of tomorrow
12-13-2010, 05:40 PM
True indeed.
It was not easy to give an estimate to the numbers of men Ituralde faced at Maradon or what Rand faced.
As i said the numbers i put fouth were only speculation based on situations with Ituralde in it, as well as ashaman.
Putting a number to some of the other forces were tough as well thou in some cases easier as we have more to go bye. But speculation is in order for most forces as we are not given a fixed number.

Juan
12-13-2010, 06:06 PM
Yeah haha that's why I didn't say anything about the speculation of numbers. I just addressed the very different sort of troops Ituralde faced in respect to Seanchan and Shadowspawn.

Btw there was a thread that addressed a bit of the sizes of the armies...

http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4832

Lord of tomorrow
12-13-2010, 06:18 PM
:) Ty for the response Juan and thank you for the thread. I missed that one. Seems to me i should have put my guess and speculation on that thread instead of this one perhaps..

Juan
12-13-2010, 06:28 PM
It's fine bro. Just figured you and others who hadn't seen it would be interested in checking it out. :)

New Futurist Man
12-14-2010, 09:09 PM
fisher80: Was Rand's super One Power display at Maradon ever explained? It seems like he was channeling at at least Callandor level (if not more) given that he laid waste to ~50,000 trollocs.
As stunningly devastating as the Dragon's display outside Maradon was - I don't think it really compares with his last use of Callandor when he fought the Seanchan. Nor with the amount of Power he was handling through the Choden Kal.

The trollocs were well within range on the battleground outside Maradon and there coming to him just played into his hands! He simply created a mincing machine for them.

Using Callandor against the Seanchan on the other hand the Dragon was able to call lighting down for literally miles all around! It was after Callandor's use, that the Seanchan commander, if only to himself, conceded defeat.

LTT's knowledge was bound to have expanded Rand's armoury of weapons, and maybe he did experience a jump in strength too - but I think his lethality outside Maradon was due to the complexity and skill of the weaves he was able to execute, and the amount of stuff he was able to tie off and just let wreak havoc!

Agder
12-15-2010, 08:37 AM
Ituralde had like 50k soldiers in Saldea I think and he killed alot more outside/inside Maradon with his tactics, Bashere said he was very effective.

And it is said in the chapter that trolloc army approaching was many times more the army assaulting Maradon and that it would've wiped through anything Randland could muster against it unless Rand had made an alliance with Seanchan. 50k? I think it was more like a million, but they started to run from him after a while tho, so who knows how many he killed?

CreationEdge
12-15-2010, 08:55 AM
Didn't Rand remember more past lives than just LTT's when he unlocked Messiah Rand?

He synced up with a lot more than LTT.
While he might not remember those older past lives (like Birgitte doesn't remember that for back anymore), perhaps he still has access to their "power"?