PDA

View Full Version : One of the weakest books in the series?


sheikh chilli
11-15-2010, 03:24 PM
Firstly let me say that after the immense TGS, i was quite looking forward to towers of midnight. I think the series suffered from lack of plot progression and TGS rectified alot of that.

But after reading TOM i can't help feeling disappointed.

Pages dedicated to elayne,lan, perrin, faile, berelain and aviendha. Lack of plot progression in the black tower. Lack of logain's whereabouts. Forsaken getting whooped as usual. Rand and egwene's plots after the tremendous TGS are stuck in 2nd gear.

I just think after 2 books we should have resolved everything by now. Instead i feel AMOL is going to look rushed. The last battle has been built up as some sort of epic encounter and yet i get the feeling it's going to end with a whimper.

TOM is not a bad book but being the penultimate book i expected something more. I mean it's taken perrin 13 books to finally accept himself. I don't know. And the most annoying thing is how the shadow seems to be incapable of actually doing any great damage to goodside. They tried to turn rand. They failed. They tried to break the white tower they failed. Let's get real. we all expect a happy ending because that's the nature of the series but would it hurt just to see the bad guys actually smash the good guys at least once?

Zaela Sedai
11-15-2010, 03:32 PM
The good guys are doing enough damage to themselves on their own. i.e. the Seanchan.

This book was a set up for the last book, just as CoT was a setup up for KoD. It's necessary, however ToM was also a great read :)

The Angry Druid
11-15-2010, 03:52 PM
While I certainly enjoyed ToM in parts, and in particular, I thought Perrin was wonderful, as was Avi's trip to Rhuidean and the columns, I was disappointed in the main.

Eggy and Rand apparently take 20 days off. The BT is avoided. Where are the Aiel? What about the Sea Folk and the Bargain? Why didn't Egwene gather in the sisters (BT, Borderlander's, those in Caemlyn), she had a month. No serious thought from anyone besides Min on how to actually win the thing? I though Mat/Verin's letter was disappointing. As was leaving Mo's rescue so late, and still not revealing too much.

It felt like a tease, and deliberately so. Like getting no Mat in tPoD after a wall collapses on him in aCoS (OK, not that bad).

Still, other than that, I though tPoD was very well done thematically, though I seem to be in the minority.

morat'corlm
11-15-2010, 04:15 PM
I wouldn't say so. Plots were wrapped up without a great deal of extraneous writing. That there remains a lot to be wrapped up in AMOL is not something that could have been avoided in this book, I think. Of the last few, TGS had the most bloat, but that was a consequence of dividing the "final book" plotwise and thematically, which I'm not really a fan of, though I understand its necessity in preventing a fan revolt.

But, no, I wouldn't call it one of the weakest in the series. My ranking at the moment would probably go

1. The Shadow Rising
2. Knife of Dreams, The Fires of Heaven, Lord of Chaos
5. A Crown of Swords, The Path of Daggers*, Towers of Midnight
8. Winter's Heart*, Crossroads of Twilight*, The Great Hunt
11. The Gathering Storm, The Dragon Reborn
13. The Eye of the World, The Shaido Plot excised from *d books

alleluia_cone
11-15-2010, 04:18 PM
I have it 6th or 7th. Nowhere near the top but at the same time, not towards the bottom either. I don't think it approaches any of the first five books and maybe not even LoC either; that's more questionable for me. As it is, I think I'm in the minority in thinking LoC as nowhere near as great as TFoH and certainly not TSR, which is far, far superior. For some reason, people tend to group those three, which makes no sense to me because the only thing LoC has in common with the other two is its length.

Either way, I think from LoC on the series started trending downwards, although, not along a consistent slope. I thought LoC and ACoS were pretty entertaining although they were flawed in ways that the previous books were not and showed many of the bad features that would plague later books. Then came TPoD and WH, where I think the series hit a nadir. In my mind, CoT and KoD picked it up besides the Elayne portions of those books, which were brutal and painful during the few times they were not an absolute abomination.

I straight out disliked TGS, especially the Rand half of the book and 80% of the Mat and Perrin material. The Egwene stuff was the only saving grace. Still, it was nowhere near as bad as WH or TPoD.

Given all that I have written, ToM is the best WoT book since at least 1994. So I'm pleased, although, I was expecting top 3, not top 6.

David Selig
11-15-2010, 04:25 PM
It's miles better than book 8-11, but then again this is not much of an achievement IMO since those were quite bad. It's not as good as TGS IMO, but this was pretty much inevitable due to the split which left this installment with plotlines which are less important in the grand scheme of things and had to tie up so many loose ends of all kinds.

For now I have it somewhere in the middle of my personal ranking, behind TSR, TDR, TFOH, TGS, LOC and TGH.

Daekyras
11-15-2010, 04:33 PM
I wouldn't say so. Plots were wrapped up without a great deal of extraneous writing. That there remains a lot to be wrapped up in AMOL is not something that could have been avoided in this book, I think. Of the last few, TGS had the most bloat, but that was a consequence of dividing the "final book" plotwise and thematically, which I'm not really a fan of, though I understand its necessity in preventing a fan revolt.
But, no, I wouldn't call it one of the weakest in the series. My ranking at the moment would probably go
1. The Shadow Rising
2. Knife of Dreams, The Fires of Heaven, Lord of Chaos
5. A Crown of Swords, The Path of Daggers*, Towers of Midnight
8. Winter's Heart*, Crossroads of Twilight*, The Great Hunt
11. The Gathering Storm, The Dragon Reborn
13. The Eye of the World, The Shaido Plot excised from *d books

morat, i saw you mention some of this before when talking about rating the books. I get a lot of what you are saying but plese could you give me some details on why you have tEotW last on the list and even more shockingly tGH somewhere from 8th to 10th!!?

This is not meant as an attack, merely an interested question as i find tGH to be one of the top three of all the books and probably the most consistently exciting of them all. TSR and tFOH are my other top 3.

alleluia_cone
11-15-2010, 04:36 PM
Eggy and Rand apparently take 20 days off.

As I have stated before, downright embarrassing.

The BT is avoided.

But somehow Brandon saw it as imperative to squeeze one useless Elayne chapter after another. I was just thrilled at seeing the Cairhien coronation and more politicking with nobles, and Elayne being airlifted, bed and all, to the top of a tower. Oh yes, pure gold!

Where are the Aiel?

Where ever they are, they're not as important as Mat's three pairs of boots or Elayne bloody Trakand.

What about the Sea Folk and the Bargain?

Rand is too busy shagging Min right now to care about that!

Why didn't Egwene gather in the sisters (BT, Borderlander's, those in Caemlyn), she had a month.

Please, those Aes Sedai are not important at all. It's not like any of them pose a potential threat to Rand or are currently serving as his main advisors and know exactly where the hell Rand is . . . oh, wait . . .

No serious thought from anyone besides Min on how to actually win the thing?

You're not quick on the uptake, are you? The plan right now is to stop Rand from destroying the world! The Dark One? Well, I'm sure he can take a number.

morat'corlm
11-15-2010, 05:00 PM
morat, i saw you mention some of this before when talking about rating the books. I get a lot of what you are saying but plese could you give me some details on why you have tEotW last on the list and even more shockingly tGH somewhere from 8th to 10th!!?Well, let me say that I like The Great Hunt by far the most of any of the first triad of books; I just like it less than those I've listed ahead of it, because I feel that it has a lot of flaws. There are some great chapters: "Blood Calls Blood", "The Dragon Reborn", "To Come Out of the Shadow", "The Grave Is No Bar To My Call", and arguably the best chapter in the entire series, "What Might Be", along with a few other notable ones (the prologue, "Summoned", "Seanchan", "The Wheel Weaves", "Damane", "A Plan", "Five Will Ride Forth"); but there's also a great deal in the middle that really drags. It's necessary build-up, but it's build-up nonetheless, and much of it happens from the POV of a character, Rand, who I find less than fascinating at this point. The Daes Dae'mar plotline is silly, and Ingtar's buffoonery is just grating.

But yes, the Fal Dara chapters were entertaining and there was great payoff at the end, the first time Jordan demonstrates his real talent for gradually escalating tension to set up a climax. Unlike, to address your other question, in Eye of the World, which had a lot fewer highs ("Dragonmount", "The Web Tightens"), even more lows, and was more poorly written in addition to its weak structuring and nigh-incomprehensible plot once the hobbits leave the Shire (I say nigh-incomprehensible as a fan of the series who's read it multiple times; from what I can see, the biggest impact of the Eye was to provide foreshadowing of the use of the Wells in Far Madding). It was a first novel in what even then was expected to be a long series; it's forgivable that there were kinks. It's just not something I'd care to plow through if given the choice.

I realize that was completely off-topic, but I suppose I invited that in the first place by giving my ranking.

Davian93
11-15-2010, 05:02 PM
tEotW was written as a possible stand alone novel in case it didnt sell well. Take that into consideration with the structure of the book.

The Mardy Asha'man
11-15-2010, 05:14 PM
I actually quite like ToM one of my fav books for all its flaws. I think I was so excited that Perrin actually did something not only mildly interesting but awesome, for the first time in like 10 books, that I overlooked a great many of its flaws :o.

It had some BT in it finally although the portion was anorexic to put it mildly (MOAR!!!).

I Like Jesus Rand hes all mellow and calm it makes me happy.

I like that the characters didn't do the 'lets not tell anyone anything; keep it all to ourselves untill were in so much **** that we can't find a way out' it was refreshing :)they comunicated alot more than in any book ever. I know its a sad reason to enjoy somthing but after suffering through the horrible communication skills of those whom reside in Randland for 12 books i couldn't contain my glee :o.

Nynaeve was uber. Avi's scene was really powerful.

I think my biggest problem with it was the Rand had 20 days to clean house at the BT (not enough time my ass) he should have done it. In fact he should have done that first after he hugged his dad. Bollocks to the borderlanders let them rot 200k soldiers Vs 500(? I dunno how many can be saved) Asha'man its a no brainer. Plus Androl is awesome and needs your help so get your stump out of your behind and get to it!!

RDDK
11-15-2010, 05:19 PM
It's a single book that had to be split into three. It's not going to be perfect. I'm sure once AMOL is out, and you can read straight through, it will be more enjoyable.

jana
11-15-2010, 09:29 PM
I'd put it in the bottom half or bottom third. Even though Perrin improved I don't think I will ever re-read his sections of ToM. Same with Elayne.

I was so relieved by Knife of Dreams. I really enjoyed Perrin's section in that book. I thought "okay, they (perrin and elayne) are caught up now and they've dealt with their problems. Yay. Now Perrin can bump into Galad and they can head to Caemlyn/Rand. We're getting somewhere!" And then... you know the rest of the story. Perrin still doesn't want to be a Lord, and he has to spend 5 chapters learning how to Dreamwalk, even though he could have done some of that while searching for Faile.

The other problem is I am very whimpy and don't like reading depressing stuff. So even though Aviendha's stuff was written well, it was a huge downer.


I liked every chapter with Rand, Mat, and Nynaeve, I liked Egwene maneuvering the Hall, and I liked the T'A'R battle. But those things only make up 30-40% of the book.

The good news is that it was certainly a setup book. Elayne's done politicking and Perrin is done developing. The stuff I don't like to read about is over. That means AMoL could (potentially) be really, really awesome.

Dewairah
11-15-2010, 09:37 PM
haha you're wimpy :p

I didnt think the book was that bad.. it wouldnt make my top 6 but it'd be in my top 10 I'd say.

To be honest, i actually think brandon has done a relatively decent job. RJ created too many plot threads and too many too late in the series for BS to give them all the same kind of treatment and justice that each deserved. Some had to be shortened or skipped or lengthened and I doubt BS would've been able to write many things the way he wanted to if he still expected there to be only 1 more book

jana
11-15-2010, 09:43 PM
It wasn't bad. I love the books that were worse :p

Another thing is that two characters I really like(d) acted in ways that upset me and so I'm dwelling on those things. Right now I'm worried about what they will do next book, and now I have to wait a long time to see if they snap out of it.

Dewairah
11-15-2010, 09:53 PM
which characters?

Andrac
11-15-2010, 10:01 PM
I straight out disliked TGS, especially the Rand half of the book and 80% of the Mat and Perrin material. The Egwene stuff was the only saving grace. Still, it was nowhere near as bad as WH or TPoD.

Given all that I have written, ToM is the best WoT book since at least 1994. So I'm pleased, although, I was expecting top 3, not top 6.

Uhhh? The egwene stuff was terrible. I can't stand reading how some 19/20 year old girl all of a sudden becomes the hardest toughest person in the world with more arrogance then every noble that has ever lived COMBINED. It was just really bad to read.

I don't know how you didn't like the mat chapters. They were hilarious. Going full on scoundrel and goofball was just great to read. I couldn't stop laughing during his letter to elayne, and the badger scene was awsome. His interactions with talamanes were also well written I think. His dry wit sometimes bordering on sarcastic blended well with mat's outrageous off the wall ways.

Squocka
11-15-2010, 10:03 PM
Nynaeve was uber.


I've seen this often but I didn't think much of her at all in the book.

TOM was a little disapointing for me, it had all the stuff we needed and some good scenes but the Rand/Egwene/Mat lost 20 days arrgghh and the short chapters

Icarium
11-15-2010, 10:15 PM
Uhhh? The egwene stuff was terrible. I can't stand reading how some 19/20 year old girl all of a sudden becomes the hardest toughest person in the world with more arrogance then every noble that has ever lived COMBINED. It was just really bad to read.

I agree. Also, I hate when all Aes Sedai are turned into utter morons so that Egwene can outsmart them. I mean, they aren't that bright in general but around Egwene they seem extra stupid.

Personally, absolutely loved the parts of ToM dealing with Mat, Aviendha, Rand and Nynaeve. The rest was decent too, with moments of brilliance and except Egwene's (expected) idiocy there wasn't much annoying stuff, so overal lI really liked this volume. I think it's unfair to blame it for the things that weren't in it, at least until we see if they won't feature in the final book.

I wish the Forsaken had achieved something for a change but that has always been a problem with WoT, so it doesn't really makes ToM worse than the other volumes. If the Forsaken had half a clue all the good guys would have long been dead.

alleluia_cone
11-15-2010, 10:35 PM
I agree. Also, I hate when all Aes Sedai are turned into utter morons so that Egwene can outsmart them. I mean, they aren't that bright in general but around Egwene they seem extra stupid.

Sometimes this is done so badly that it's nearly unbearable to read. Like:

Egwene: "I'll deal with the monarchs exclusively."

Hall: "OK"

Egwene: "The Dragon Reborn is a monarch, so therefore I will deal with him exclusively! HAHAHA . . . I outsmarted you with my brilliant Machiavellian schemes!"

Hall: "Yes you did, even though a five year old could have figured out your plot ten minutes ago since it was so blindly obvious but we're Aes Sedai and therefore stupid."

I mean, seriously, these were the people running the world for the past 3,000 years?

fdsaf3
11-15-2010, 11:12 PM
Progression of the narrative throughout the series is a theme I've been talking about for years. To be honest, I have received flack and frustrated responses from people on this forum for expressing my views on the issue. Maybe it's more appropriate now.

Anyway, there's no need to bring up all of my issues here again. An interesting thing to note for you all is that Aes Sedai when they were first introduced were mysterious, powerful, and feared women who pulled the strings of the world. Ogier and Aes Sedai were always referred to as having maintained knowledge and information from the Age of Legends. It is not explicitly stated how much each Aes Sedai knows, but the general picture painted (so to speak) of them as an organization is that they are worldly, intelligent, and capable. Then, around book 6 or so, that starts to change. Other female channelers are introduced which undermines Aes Sedai authority derived from wielding the One Power. As readers, our main connection points to the series in the form of the main characters are also more worldly; it is not surprising that their views and interactions with Aes Sedai change accordingly.

The frustrating thing is that Aes Sedai change how they act. It's not a change in reference, it is a change in behavior. As I said, change in reference makes sense given that Rand et al have changed. But as the series goes on, Aes Sedai become stupider, more out of touch with reality, and more obsessed with power struggles, straightening of skirts, and the like. That change is just one microcosm of the frustration I have with this series. Everything has changed from the first book. Every major institution has undergone significant change, sometimes wildly so. Remember when being a blademaster was something you had to practice to accomplish to do for 5 years, and that was only something Rand could do because he was a natural? Well, a few short years later not only Rand but Mat and Perrin have become blademaster-quality fighters. Neither Mat nor Perrin use a sword so they cannot be considered blademasters, but both have demonstrated significantly above-average skills with fighting.

It's stuff like that which really bugs me.

alleluia_cone
11-15-2010, 11:30 PM
I think the whole point is that the legends were fake. The Aes Sedai, in general, were nothing like what they were supposed to be like. Their image was completely falsified.

If as readers we were deceived as well, this is simply a function of the fact that during the first book we only ever got to know Moiraine and she really is like the legends say Aes Sedai are supposed to be like. Only later did we discover that she was the exception. Even Elaida helped to perpetrate this myth because the first time we saw her she had one of her foretellings, during which she really does seem all powerful and mysterious, and so forth.

That being said, making the Aes Sedai seem so stupid that you seriously question how they ever managed to be taken seriously by anyone above the age of ten was a huge mistake. I understand this was done in order to bolster Egwene's position and make it believable that an 18 year-old village girl could command women hundreds of years her senior but this ends up making both parties look bad; the Aes Sedai, for being so pathetic, and Egwene, dumb for thinking the Aes Sedai are the answer to the world's problems.

morat'corlm
11-15-2010, 11:38 PM
Remember when being a blademaster was something you had to practice to accomplish to do for 5 years, and that was only something Rand could do because he was a natural? Well, a few short years later not only Rand but Mat and Perrin have become blademaster-quality fighters. Neither Mat nor Perrin use a sword so they cannot be considered blademasters, but both have demonstrated significantly above-average skills with fighting.I don't see how Mat's impressive abilities with the quarterstaff, adapted to the spear, and Perrin's rather less-impressive abilities with the hammer and axe (seriously, Perrin was losing badly to the only near-blademaster swordsman he ever faced before Aram was shot) do anything to disprove conceptions about how long it takes to learn the sword.

jana
11-15-2010, 11:44 PM
Ya, I don't think that's the issue at all. Aes Sedai haven't changed.

We were just introduced to two of the best (or THE best) Aes Sedai around in the first two books. Moiraine and Verin.

We were spoiled.


That being said...
That being said, making the Aes Sedai seem so stupid

I do agree with this, but only in TGS and TOM. Elaida had been power-hungry for a long time but she turned into a cartoon in TGS. I had problems with some of the others too but she was worst. I wanted Egwene to defeat someone who put up a good fight. (I also wanted Elaida to know she was beat... before she was taken by the Seanchan)

David Selig
11-16-2010, 02:38 AM
Elaida was always stupid, especially since she gained the Amyrlin Seat ("I have to build myself a huge palace on the eve of the Last Battle") and reached the height of her idiocy in KoD.

"Hey, I know Egwene can meet with the rebels in TAR. What should I do? I know, I'll let her enough freedom to move through the Tower, see everything and report it. Come to think of it, I'll let her meet with Leane and speak in private to her too.

You know what? I don't think I even need to check up on Egwene at all, I am too busy having sex with my pillowfriend from my Accepted days".

Daekyras
11-16-2010, 02:55 AM
I liked ToM. It's no TSR or tGH but it's good.

I have a problewm in that it was 800 or so pages long and felt rushed. Now, assuming that aMoL will be the same length, or a little longer, I'm getting worried that it will not contain a satisfyting ending.

Just wondering what everyones thoughts would be on the possiblity of the next book NOT being the last i.e. BS gets to write another 2 or 3?

I'm not talking about Out-Rigger stuff. Just that we extend the story/ number of books to allow it to be adequately finished. I know we've been waiting for many years but I would be willing to wait for another 2-3 years to get it right.

Rand al'Fain
11-16-2010, 02:59 AM
I liked ToM. It's no TSR or tGH but it's good.

I have a problewm in that it was 800 or so pages long and felt rushed. Now, assuming that aMoL will be the same length, or a little longer, I'm getting worried that it will not contain a satisfyting ending.

Just wondering what everyones thoughts would be on the possiblity of the next book NOT being the last i.e. BS gets to write another 2 or 3?

I'm not talking about Out-Rigger stuff. Just that we extend the story/ number of books to allow it to be adequately finished. I know we've been waiting for many years but I would be willing to wait for another 2-3 years to get it right.
I would be willing to wait as well. If it takes another book or two, so be it. So long as it is done well, I will be happy.

jana
11-16-2010, 03:12 AM
I don't think two books will be necessary but I would be happy about it.

Andrac
11-16-2010, 03:40 AM
Sometimes this is done so badly that it's nearly unbearable to read. Like:

Egwene: "I'll deal with the monarchs exclusively."

Hall: "OK"

Egwene: "The Dragon Reborn is a monarch, so therefore I will deal with him exclusively! HAHAHA . . . I outsmarted you with my brilliant Machiavellian schemes!"

Hall: "Yes you did, even though a five year old could have figured out your plot ten minutes ago since it was so blindly obvious but we're Aes Sedai and therefore stupid."

I mean, seriously, these were the people running the world for the past 3,000 years?

Ummm, you were the one that said the egwene scenes were the only saving grace of the book. Now you are basically saying the same thing as the rest of us, they were terrible and unbelievable. So which is it?


You know what? I don't think I even need to check up on Egwene at all, I am too busy having sex with my pillowfriend from my Accepted days".

I know this was so bad. I mean not a single scene of this described at all. The friend who's full name I can't remember had such a big bosom to. Bosom! :(

Daekyras
11-16-2010, 04:06 AM
Ummm, you were the one that said the egwene scenes were the only saving grace of the book. Now you are basically saying the same thing as the rest of us, they were terrible and unbelievable. So which is it?


Actually Andrac, I think alleuia said that she really enjoyed egwene's scenes in tGS and disliked the Mat storyline(Hinterstrap anyone?).

The scene so excellently parodied was in ToM. Which I bellieve Alleuia said where annoying, the egwene bits anyway.

:)

Mort
11-16-2010, 05:23 AM
I wouldn't want AMoL to be split up into yet another set of books. The end is long overdue at this point. I more want it to END than having a very good one at this point.
Frankly, after waiting this long for the end to come, I'm not sure any ending will be satisfactory. Either it's too much of what we expected, which will be boring; or it will something far-fetched and weird; or we'll see a pretty good ending somewhere inbetween but feeling it will be rushed, like always.

Actually, any ending will probaby feel it's been rushed because you can't wait many years for an event you know is going to happen and then feeling totally satisfied when it happens. Expectations are just too high. This has been the case with almost all big events in the series to some degree.

alleluia_cone
11-16-2010, 11:32 AM
Ummm, you were the one that said the egwene scenes were the only saving grace of the book. Now you are basically saying the same thing as the rest of us, they were terrible and unbelievable. So which is it?

Daekyras already answered for me but basically you just got the books mixed up.

As to Egwene in TGS, I really do think her portions of the book while having their flaws (and with Egwene, there are always flaws), are pretty entertaining. Rand's scenes on the other hand, besides the part with Semirhage and the part atop of Dragonmount, consisted of him walking his horse around brooding; be it in Bandar Eban, Tear or wherever else he went. Speaking truthfully, I find 80% of his passages in the book unreadable. As for Mat and Perrin, they were basically no shows, with Mat having what was seemingly a completely random and unnecessary arc. So besides the part where Mat was coming up with an elaborate cover scheme and the Verin chapter, I could have done without either Mat or Perrin if they were not even going to be used.

Now, as for Egwene in ToM, and Rand as well, I have made my views on the matter more than clear on various postings all throughout this forum. Basically, 28 days passed in the timeline for both of them in the book and we were given something like 5 days of screen action for each of them.

What happened those other 20-23 days as the world is literally ending and there are about a billion things that need to be done in order to prevent that from happening?

No clue.

Do we get some type of explanation in one of their POVs?

Nope.

Will this be addressed in the next book?

God, I hope so.

GonzoTheGreat
11-16-2010, 11:54 AM
I have no doubt that Egwene has been busy making the office of Amyrlin more important. After all, that's what is going to settle TG one way or another, isn't it?

Elwynn
11-16-2010, 02:05 PM
I have a problewm in that it was 800 or so pages long and felt rushed. Now, assuming that aMoL will be the same length, or a little longer, I'm getting worried that it will not contain a satisfyting ending.

I'm becoming increasingly worried that all BS had to say about the ending was that he was satisfied.
This was a man who never wondered about asmodean, never theorized about anything like us wot junkies.
Not shocking, or mind blowing, or surprising, or emotionally wrecking, not even a simple...it was awesome, or it definitely delivers.

sheikh chilli
11-16-2010, 03:59 PM
When the decision to split AMOL into 3 books was made i loved it because at the end of KOD alot of plots were still not resolved.

I really don't understand the need to waste pages of pages on Elayne for example. Or perrin for that matter. Things like the black tower resolution, or the impending seanchan attack on the white tower or even demandred's whereabouts/plans was what i wanted.

At this point in time nothing can do justice to tarmon gaidon. TOM should have ended with rand al thor breaking the seals. We need a whole book just on TG. Instead we face the prospect of TG starting somewhere in the middle of book 14. So ridiculous

morat'corlm
11-16-2010, 04:06 PM
I really don't understand the need to waste pages of pages on Elayne for example. Or perrin for that matter.That's simple enough. They're two of the six more or less coequal main characters. WOT hasn't been "The Story of Rand" since the middle of Book 1.

Nafro
11-16-2010, 04:10 PM
This is not one of the weakest books in the series. It was excellent. I think much of the angst over this book is that many things are revealed to not be what many readers thought or theorized them to be. I must say, however, that as I neared the end of the book I started getting angry at Mat's seeming absence. Then BANG! Payoff!

jana
11-16-2010, 04:33 PM
I'm becoming increasingly worried that all BS had to say about the ending was that he was satisfied.

Not shocking, or mind blowing, or surprising, or emotionally wrecking, not even a simple...it was awesome, or it definitely delivers.

It doesn't worry me at all. Of all the words he could use, "satisfying" sounds the best in my opinion. I don't want it to be shocking :p.

sheikh chilli
11-17-2010, 04:33 PM
That's simple enough. They're two of the six more or less coequal main characters. WOT hasn't been "The Story of Rand" since the middle of Book 1.

sure but to waste pages and pages on them. Especially Elayne....

BS has basically put too much filler in TOM. He caught the RJ disease

googly
11-20-2010, 05:02 PM
sure but to waste pages and pages on them. Especially Elayne....

BS has basically put too much filler in TOM. He caught the RJ diseaseNot to mention Morgase. Who the hell cares about Morgase (apparently not even Elayne).

David Selig
11-20-2010, 05:16 PM
Not to mention Morgase. Who the hell cares about Morgase (apparently not even Elayne).
Come on, you got the admit the part where Morgase explained for 4 pages the right way for a maid to pour tea was just awesome. :D

Jonai
11-20-2010, 05:18 PM
That was a high point for me.

morat'corlm
11-20-2010, 05:50 PM
Eh, Morgase is a lot more interesting than Rand most days. Certainly more so than Perrin.

jana
11-20-2010, 06:54 PM
Come on, you got the admit the part where Morgase explained for 4 pages the right way for a maid to pour tea was just awesome. :D

No sarcasm here... I really liked Morgase's PoV.

alleluia_cone
11-20-2010, 07:04 PM
No sarcasm here... I really liked Morgase's PoV.

Me too.

Spasmodean
11-20-2010, 08:01 PM
Come on, you got the admit the part where Morgase explained for 4 pages the right way for a maid to pour tea was just awesome. :D

If you're going to have 4 pages on tea-pouring, I'd rather have it done the way it was done in ToM than any other book.

That scene almost seemed like Brandon homaging RJ's writing style but interjecting his own pace into it. It made me smile.

Madgod
11-20-2010, 08:08 PM
Yeah, I didn't mind Morgase's POV either. It was well-written, considering the topic, and it gave a good view of what was going on in her head, which was important given her role in the trial later.

Davian93
11-21-2010, 11:51 AM
Yeah, I didn't mind Morgase's POV either. It was well-written, considering the topic, and it gave a good view of what was going on in her head, which was important given her role in the trial later.

And it led in very well to her new role in Andor...particularly where Elayne notices that her mother has taken the role of serving Dyelin and her tea. It was worth the 4 pages.

David Selig
11-21-2010, 12:24 PM
Coincidently, I just reread the part where Morgase was pouring tea in ToM a few minutes ago, seems much better when I am not impatient as on the first reread where the first chapters got me worried the pace was too slow and I wanted to see what's going on with Rand, Mat and Elayne.

ShadowbaneX
11-21-2010, 12:38 PM
And it led in very well to her new role in Andor...particularly where Elayne notices that her mother has taken the role of serving Dyelin and her tea. It was worth the 4 pages.

as a slight tangent I've been wondering about Aviendha's walk through the future and the seeming absence of Min, Elayne & Aviendha less than two or so decades following the last battle.

First we've got Nicola's Prophecy. "The Lion Sword, the Dedicated Spear and She Who Sees Beyond. Three on a boat, with He Who is Dead, Yet Lives." Rand fakes his death, takes his three women with him and goes on a boat ride. Perhaps he agrees to go off with Tuon, or perhaps he heads down to the Sea Folk Isles. Either way it seems that Elayne, Aviendha, Min and Rand leave Randland after the Last Battle.

So where does that leave us? Elayne's got twins coming but they might have to remain behind to hold the throne. Two heirs, two thrones, and a Queen Mother to be regent? Seems like the perfect role for Morgase if Elayne does have to leave.

As for the split with the Court of the Sun, perhaps, like Alliandre suggested in the event that Faile inherits the Saldaean throne, one of the twins takes the Lion Throne, and the other takes the Sun Throne. Heh, if the twins are fraternal, one boy, one girl, it makes for a double entendre for the Throne of the Sun/Son.

Could also set up Moiraine & Thom as the Regent of the Sun Throne which she'd probably like much better then actually being Queen, much like Perrin probably much prefers the title of Stewart of the Two Rivers.

Davian93
11-21-2010, 12:53 PM
as a slight tangent I've been wondering about Aviendha's walk through the future and the seeming absence of Min, Elayne & Aviendha less than two or so decades following the last battle.

First we've got Nicola's Prophecy. "The Lion Sword, the Dedicated Spear and She Who Sees Beyond. Three on a boat, with He Who is Dead, Yet Lives." Rand fakes his death, takes his three women with him and goes on a boat ride. Perhaps he agrees to go off with Tuon, or perhaps he heads down to the Sea Folk Isles. Either way it seems that Elayne, Aviendha, Min and Rand leave Randland after the Last Battle.

So where does that leave us? Elayne's got twins coming but they might have to remain behind to hold the throne. Two heirs, two thrones, and a Queen Mother to be regent? Seems like the perfect role for Morgase if Elayne does have to leave.

As for the split with the Court of the Sun, perhaps, like Alliandre suggested in the event that Faile inherits the Saldaean throne, one of the twins takes the Lion Throne, and the other takes the Sun Throne. Heh, if the twins are fraternal, one boy, one girl, it makes for a double entendre for the Throne of the Sun/Son.

Could also set up Moiraine & Thom as the Regent of the Sun Throne which she'd probably like much better then actually being Queen, much like Perrin probably much prefers the title of Stewart of the Two Rivers.

If Elayne's boy twin is born first, the thrones split automatically due to Andor's reverse Salic laws...so its very possible.

sheikh chilli
11-22-2010, 04:49 PM
as a slight tangent I've been wondering about Aviendha's walk through the future and the seeming absence of Min, Elayne & Aviendha less than two or so decades following the last battle.

First we've got Nicola's Prophecy. "The Lion Sword, the Dedicated Spear and She Who Sees Beyond. Three on a boat, with He Who is Dead, Yet Lives." Rand fakes his death, takes his three women with him and goes on a boat ride. Perhaps he agrees to go off with Tuon, or perhaps he heads down to the Sea Folk Isles. Either way it seems that Elayne, Aviendha, Min and Rand leave Randland after the Last Battle.

So where does that leave us? Elayne's got twins coming but they might have to remain behind to hold the throne. Two heirs, two thrones, and a Queen Mother to be regent? Seems like the perfect role for Morgase if Elayne does have to leave.

As for the split with the Court of the Sun, perhaps, like Alliandre suggested in the event that Faile inherits the Saldaean throne, one of the twins takes the Lion Throne, and the other takes the Sun Throne. Heh, if the twins are fraternal, one boy, one girl, it makes for a double entendre for the Throne of the Sun/Son.

Could also set up Moiraine & Thom as the Regent of the Sun Throne which she'd probably like much better then actually being Queen, much like Perrin probably much prefers the title of Stewart of the Two Rivers.

rand al thor is going to retire with his 3 honeys when everything is said and done

Sooner1222
11-22-2010, 05:36 PM
I enjoyed most of it, however I still feel that Brandon just isn't able to pull off Mat's character very well.

I've stated elsewhere that BS's Mat comes across as more of a Buffoon than in the earlier books. Contrast the bargaining scene in ACoS and KoD with the one with Elayne in ToM. Mat, starting in the middle books, is portrayed as a worldly character that is comfortable no matter what environment he is in. I felt like BS played up Elayne's abilities in that regard. While she is probably more competent, I just don't buy that she goes from being a crappy bargainer with the Seafolk to being able to hold her own with Mat in half a year.

This is one of a couple that bugged me. Granted, I did enjoy scenes like the one with the badger and the ToG sequence.

subwoofer
11-22-2010, 06:03 PM
I dunno, I enjoyed this book very much. I understand what everyone is talking about when they mention Hindertap, but this felt infinitely better. And I think Mat's letter to Elayne was worth reading the book for.

And for the size of the book the pace was done very well. For 800+ pages of book it flew by. There were some characters that progressed, some that regressed. Egwene took a back seat to the Amrylin that she was in the last book. Perrin finally came into the leader that he was supposed to be. I think the big problem that everyone has is the methodical way Perrin approaches things and the time it took for him to settle who he is with who he thinks he is. That and Faile. In this case Faile actually does something useful and helps bring Perrin around to accept his leadership. For all intents and purposes, Brandon was faithful to the way Perrin has been written the last few books so I had no complaints.

And Brandon did an admirable job at describing Berelain in Galad's POV. That sealed it for me:)

Jonai
11-22-2010, 06:34 PM
I dunno, I enjoyed this book very much. I understand what everyone is talking about when they mention Hindertap, but this felt infinitely better. And I think Mat's letter to Elayne was worth reading the book for.

And for the size of the book the pace was done very well. For 800+ pages of book it flew by. There were some characters that progressed, some that regressed. Egwene took a back seat to the Amrylin that she was in the last book. Perrin finally came into the leader that he was supposed to be. I think the big problem that everyone has is the methodical way Perrin approaches things and the time it took for him to settle who he is with who he thinks he is. That and Faile. In this case Faile actually does something useful and helps bring Perrin around to accept his leadership. For all intents and purposes, Brandon was faithful to the way Perrin has been written the last few books so I had no complaints.

And Brandon did an admirable job at describing Berelain in Galad's POV. That sealed it for me:)

I agree. I mean hell, I think Caemlyn on fire, Moiraine and rand going WoP on those trollocs were all worth the price of admission.

Davian93
11-22-2010, 06:46 PM
I enjoyed most of it, however I still feel that Brandon just isn't able to pull off Mat's character very well.

I've stated elsewhere that BS's Mat comes across as more of a Buffoon than in the earlier books. Contrast the bargaining scene in ACoS and KoD with the one with Elayne in ToM. Mat, starting in the middle books, is portrayed as a worldly character that is comfortable no matter what environment he is in. I felt like BS played up Elayne's abilities in that regard. While she is probably more competent, I just don't buy that she goes from being a crappy bargainer with the Seafolk to being able to hold her own with Mat in half a year.

This is one of a couple that bugged me. Granted, I did enjoy scenes like the one with the badger and the ToG sequence.

They were bargaining with different goals in mind...and Mat didnt realize how desperate Elayne was for an edge against the Seanchan. He was desperate to get the Dragons built in time for the Last Battle and he's used to Elayne not taking him seriously as he was asking for massive resources to be allocated. He was bargaining with very important short-term goals in mind while she was bargaining strategically. Both "won" the bargain but Elayne's win will have more lasting effects.

Besides which, Mat is Andoran, knows Rand wont be around long and genuinely likes Elayne so he really had no major issues attaching the Band to Andor.

Sooner1222
11-22-2010, 07:29 PM
Yeah, I guess I agree with that Davian. I don't even think that it was so much the bargain that I didn't like.

I do think Mat was a lot better, I just don't feel like BS portrays Mat the way RJ did. I'm fine with that, overall I love the way he has written the books. I especially thought Perrin was excellently written.

Spasmodean
11-23-2010, 04:16 PM
Mat went in thinking he'd get laughed out.
Elayne practically handed herself to him when she said this was exactly what she'd been looking for.
He was still reeling from her eagerness to bargain harder. Still I think they both walked away happy.

Edit: Though his letter to Elayne sounded like Granny Weatherwax wrote it.

GonzoTheGreat
11-23-2010, 04:37 PM
Then again, there weren't many other occasions in the series where he wrote anything.

ShadowLord
11-23-2010, 04:39 PM
Come on, folks. That letter was pure sarcasm.

Caveatar
11-23-2010, 04:51 PM
Edit: Though his letter to Elayne sounded like Granny Weatherwax wrote it.
It does sound like something she would write to Queen Magrat. :D

hmmmm. Is Emond's field anywhere near the Ramtops?
Granny Weatherwax and Havelock Vetinari would straighten stuff out!

tardz0r
11-27-2010, 04:47 AM
Bah, both TOM and TGS stepped things up greatly for a series that had been stuck in a rut ever since the shadow rising or whatever the fourth book was called. TOM focused on wrapping things up nice and tightly for Perrin and to an extent Mat, while TGS did the same for Rand. When Rand sat crying at the slopes of Dragonmount at the end of TGS he was essentially ready for the last battle, and the chapters dealing with him in TOM were essentially just to position his plot line parallelly to those of the other major characters pending tarmon gaidon.

The wheel of time hasn't been truly great since The eye of the world, but barring "the dragon reborn" (third book) and "the shadow rising" (fourth book), Brandon Sanderson is the best thing that could have happened to the series.

TankSpill
11-27-2010, 12:26 PM
I don't find it to be a particularly weak book from what I recall, but I can say that I'm having trouble reading it again. I'm not really sure why, and I'm wanting to figure it out. After each of the books that has come out, minus CoT and NS, I flew through them as soon as they were out, put them down for a couple weeks, then re-read them much more slowly. I'm unable to find the willpower to go through this one again though.


The wheel of time hasn't been truly great since The eye of the world, but barring "the dragon reborn" (third book) and "the shadow rising" (fourth book), Brandon Sanderson is the best thing that could have happened to the series.

Huh... interesting.

yasiru89
11-27-2010, 12:32 PM
About Aes Sedai, don't you think you were just duped, instead of them changing through the course of the story? By tDR I was certain of my long-standing suspicions that Moiraine was faking half (or all) the mystery she exuded. A cryptic comment there, a serene face here, all very big on theatrics, but it all hid ignorance as she stumbled forth as poorly as our heroes.

That said, ToM was certainly not one of the weaker books of the series. In fact, the only real problem with it was predictability. Sure, we had some stunners like Aviendha's visions in Rhuidean, but I suspect for the sake of tying up plotlines that have needed it since many a book ago, Brandon decided to keep it straightforward. This is what seems to chagrin most of the folk who think poorly of the book. But I thought the epilogue went a long way towards rectifying this. Also, we can now rest assured that aMoL has more 'degrees of freedom' to work with. I just hope Tarmon Gai'don is done with by the first three quarters of the book and the rest is about sorting through the mess the Seanchan et al are bound to make of matters. Such an exercise would be tedious enough to still the tongues of any who might think to complain of a happy ending! That said, I missed Tylee, and Dobraine, and the Aiel clan chiefs, etc. etc. but that was just the price of tidying up.
I hope the Shadow makes a comeback before being defeated (?) though. Funny things showing up in the Blight is all well and fine, but maybe let's have Andor razed through a combination of the strike on Caemlyn and a battle at the Black Tower, the White Tower in shambles due to a Seanchan raid (maybe have Galgan be a darkfriend?) and just have some Trollocs destroy Far Madding just because that place pisses me off and seems fine for cannon fodder.
Elayne losing Andor would be a good thing if the Band manages to salvage the dragons from the jaws of the Shadow. She's hoarding the things while the whole world needs an edge desperately. Maybe she didn't get the 'whole of Creation at stake' memo that Egwene also apparently missed.

The Immortal One
11-28-2010, 11:20 AM
About Aes Sedai, don't you think you were just duped, instead of them changing through the course of the story? By tDR I was certain of my long-standing suspicions that Moiraine was faking half (or all) the mystery she exuded. A cryptic comment there, a serene face here, all very big on theatrics, but it all hid ignorance as she stumbled forth as poorly as our heroes.

I agree with this. Though I think I have a better opinion of Moiraine than you. She not only seems more knowledgable and mysterious than any other Aes Sedai, but she also seemed to use the One Power with more skill and more better weaves than most others (and also she seemed a little more emotional than most Aes Sedai - if you know what to look for).

I really think that ToM was one of the better books.

Also, the Eye of the World is one of the best books.

yasiru89
11-28-2010, 08:06 PM
I agree with this. Though I think I have a better opinion of Moiraine than you. She not only seems more knowledgable and mysterious than any other Aes Sedai, but she also seemed to use the One Power with more skill and more better weaves than most others (and also she seemed a little more emotional than most Aes Sedai - if you know what to look for).

I really think that ToM was one of the better books.

Also, the Eye of the World is one of the best books.
I don't exactly regard her poorly. I remember one of my psychology lecturers saying that very often, the key to eventual success is in following the dictum 'fake it till you make it'. The point though is that she does only seem to be that knowledgeable. But that's exactly what was needed thankfully, in many situations that arose.
She's definitely one of the most skilled among the Aes Sedai, especially in battle, and character-strength wise, her only shortcoming was perhaps her unrelenting focus (tip a bit more and you have lady Byar). So while she's what was needed (in making blind stumbling seem directed in her fervour) she was not without, sometimes major, personal shortcomings. I think what set her to 'self-actualisation' (in keeping with the psychology references) was that trip to Rhuidean and not in itself the 'channelling saiRand' near the end.

ShadowLord
11-28-2010, 11:11 PM
I disagree with the major poinr of this thread. ToM was not weak, just different from TGS. Everything covered was necesary to get us to MoL.

Considering everything that had to be covered. I thought it was well done. Was there more I would have liked to see? Of course. But BWS is handling the wrap-up quite well.

Ed Wood
11-29-2010, 01:46 AM
When did WoT turn into David Eddings?

Everyone meets up, everyone makes friends. Some of it is not even subtle. It's like all the loose ends needed to be tied as quickly as possible. The book could have been twice as long and better for it - it feels rushed.

Disappointed in the lack of intrigue or intelligence in the plotline. No OMG moments, and what the blazes is RaT doing ignoring several hundred channellers that he's been warned will turn against him??

Summary: Plot is overly simplistic, overly rushed and all a bit Candide for my tastes.

Ed Wood
11-29-2010, 01:54 AM
I would be willing to wait as well. If it takes another book or two, so be it. So long as it is done well, I will be happy.

Unfortunately the opportunity was missed with this book to do that