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amazinglarry
11-16-2010, 04:23 PM
Haven't seen anyone start an in-depth discussion of Lanfear/Mierin's appearance in the epilogue, so here goes...

First of all, how did she get into Rand's dream? Shouldn't this be impossible with his wards?

She seemed to be making a desperate plea for help. My first impression was that this was a genuine plea. Rand seemed concerned for her, and called her by the name "Mierin" rather than "Lanfear." Could this be an indication that enlightened Rand now sees her as her pre-Forsaken persona rather than as evil Lanfear? Or could this whole thing be a setup meant to draw Rand in?

If it is genuine, it could be foreshadowing that Lanfear will flip to the light side. Rand told Nynaeve about his plans for using Callandor and seemed certain about her participation, but he waffled on who the 3rd woman would be. I wonder if this could be setting up Mierin as the 3rd.

We also have Min's viewing in ACoS that Rand would fail without a woman who is "dead and gone." Most people interpret this as Moiraine, since that's how Min herself interprets it. But we don't know if the viewing literally named Moiraine or not. If the "dead and gone" wording represents the viewing verbatim, it can't be Moiraine, because she's never been dead...it would have to be referring to a transmigrated Forsaken - like Lanfear. The way it's written from Min's POV it's unclear what part is the actual viewing and what is Min's interpretation, unfortunately...

A villain turning back to the good side is a common trope in Fantasy (and literature in general), and we have Moiraine's insistence that no one can turn so far to the dark side that they can't turn back from early in the series. You could argue that the trope has already been covered in WoT via Ingtar, though.

In summary: Likely? Probably not, but I think it's at least worth considering. Opinions?

amazinglarry

tiredofbuttons
11-16-2010, 04:25 PM
We also have Min's viewing in ACoS that Rand would fail without a woman who is "dead and gone." amazinglarry

I thought she specifically mentioned Moiraine later about this? Am I incorrect?

jana
11-16-2010, 04:30 PM
I thought she specifically mentioned Moiraine later about this? Am I incorrect?

She has never specifically said that the "Rand will surely fail without _______" was about Moiraine. She said her viewing about Moiraine failed. It was a different viewing. The viewing "Rand will fail without ___" can't fail. It's an "if" viewing.

I know the Lanfear theory is more interesting to some people, but the viewing is obviously about Moiraine considering she's going to "save the world."

I also think at some point Min would have had an internal thought about Lanfear helping Rand and the Light.

thewyrm
11-16-2010, 04:30 PM
Can't help but feel sorry for Mierin/Lanfear,evil though she is.
If Rand succeeds in turning her back to the light that would be great.

amazinglarry
11-16-2010, 04:32 PM
I thought she specifically mentioned Moiraine later about this? Am I incorrect?

She does, in the same chapter (ACoS 35). But we never find out whether the literal viewing is "Rand will fail without a woman who is dead and gone" and Min infers that it's Moiraine, or the viewing is "Rand will fail without Moiraine."

amazinglarry

amazinglarry
11-16-2010, 04:33 PM
She has never specifically said that the "Rand will surely fail without _______" was about Moiraine. She said her viewing about Moiraine failed. It was a different viewing.

Are you sure? I thought Min was referring back to the "Rand will fail without ____" viewing... Is there evidence of a second Moiraine viewing that Min thinks failed?

amazinglarry

tiredofbuttons
11-16-2010, 04:37 PM
Are you sure? I thought Min was referring back to the "Rand will fail without ____" viewing... Is there evidence of a second Moiraine viewing that Min thinks failed?

amazinglarry

I suspect it would have to do with Tom and her marrying. Moiraine knew the face of the person she was going to marry (despite immediately pretending she could have been saying something else) and says that she KNEW tom would live.

J is probably correct. Sigh. I need to do yet another reread.

morat'corlm
11-16-2010, 04:38 PM
Haven't seen anyone start an in-depth discussion of Lanfear/Mierin's appearance in the epilogue, so here goes...
Here are (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4333) a few. (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4323)
Or could this whole thing be a setup meant to draw Rand in?

If it is genuine, it could be foreshadowing that Lanfear will flip to the light side.I think it's both, and that Lanfear's attempt to turn to the Light to escape her torment will result in Rand learning how to re-seal the Bore and the use of the cour'sovra to destroy her, which will cause Rand anguish.

jana
11-16-2010, 04:38 PM
Are you sure? I thought Min was referring back to the "Rand will fail without ____" viewing... Is there evidence of a second Moiraine viewing that Min thinks failed?

amazinglarry

yes I'm sure. That viewing CANNOT fail. It's not possible.

Rand will fail without _______.
If she's not there he will fail.
If she's there he might not fail.

The viewing is true no matter what. It can't be made untrue.

We've had plenty of evidence that Min had a viewing that Moiraine and Thom would marry, which Min would think failed since she assumes Moiraine is dead.


In that chapter Min says "Moiraine's was the only viewing of hers that had ever failed" but she doesn't refer specifically to it being that viewing (because it can't fail).

amazinglarry
11-16-2010, 04:40 PM
I suspect it would have to do with Tom and her marrying. Moiraine knew the face of the person she was going to marry (despite immediately pretending she could have been saying something else) and says that she KNEW tom would live.

Did she learn these things in Rhuidean or did she make that statement before going? Maybe she did learn them from Min. I don't remember...I could use a reread too!

amazinglarry

tiredofbuttons
11-16-2010, 04:41 PM
Did she learn these things in Rhuidean or did she make that statement before going? Maybe she did learn them from Min. I don't remember...I could use a reread too!

amazinglarry

Both statements were made before Rhuidean.

amazinglarry
11-16-2010, 04:45 PM
In that chapter Min says "Moiraine's was the only viewing of hers that had ever failed" but she doesn't refer specifically to it being that viewing (because it can't fail).

Ahh, I see your logic here. So her later thought must have been about the Thom thing then. We still don't know for sure whether "_____" is "Moiraine" or "a woman who is dead and gone," though. So I think the Mierin thing is still unresolved, even though I'll admit it's unlikely at best. The dream scene in the epilogue could be a trap or just a red herring.

edit: thanks for looking up the Rhuidean thing, tiredofbuttons.

amazinglarry

Crispin's Crispian
11-16-2010, 04:45 PM
yes I'm sure. That viewing CANNOT fail. It's not possible.

Rand will fail without _______.
If she's not there he will fail.
If she's there he might not fail.

The viewing is true no matter what. It can't be made untrue.

We've had plenty of evidence that Min had a viewing that Moiraine and Thom would marry, which Min would think failed since she assumes Moiraine is dead.


In that chapter Min says "Moiraine's was the only viewing of hers that had ever failed" but she doesn't refer specifically to it being that viewing (because it can't fail).

Exactly. Her viewing about Moiraine is:



"He would almost certainly fail without a woman who was dead and gone..."

So, there's a chance that Rand won't fail without her, but it's a slim one. But whether she's there or not, the viewing itself will be correct (he'll either fail or he won't).

jana
11-16-2010, 04:47 PM
Ahh, I see your logic here. So her later thought must have been about the Thom thing then. We still don't know for sure whether "_____" is "Moiraine" or "a woman who is dead and gone," though. So I think the Mierin thing is still unresolved, even though I'll admit it's unlikely at best. The dream scene in the epilogue could be a trap or just a red herring.

edit: thanks for looking up the Rhuidean thing, tiredofbuttons.

amazinglarry

Ya. It still *could* be Lanfear. I think the thing was a trap though. She hated Rand very recently. I'm hoping he'll be forced to kill her and actually do it this time.

tiredofbuttons
11-16-2010, 04:50 PM
Ya. It still *could* be Lanfear. I think the thing was a trap though. She hated Rand very recently. I'm hoping he'll be forced to kill her and actually do it this time.

Would the new Rand use balefire? Or is that evil since it is pattern destroying? Would he avoid Balefire even knowing that the DO could bring them back?

Ieyasu
11-16-2010, 04:52 PM
First of all, how did she get into Rand's dream? Shouldn't this be impossible with his wards?

She said she could break his wards if she wanted to, and that it would not be pleasant for Rand.

jana
11-16-2010, 05:05 PM
She said she could break his wards if she wanted to, and that it would not be pleasant for Rand.

and if not, Rand is connected to Moridin.

Ishara
11-16-2010, 05:06 PM
Well, I'd imagine that fighting the DO is going to be unpleasant. ;)

My opinion? It's not really Lanfear. It's Moridin manipulating Rand in his dreams.

alleluia_cone
11-16-2010, 05:17 PM
My opinion? It's not really Lanfear. It's Moridin manipulating Rand in his dreams.

I doubt this personally, even if it was Moridin manipulating the dream. Why wouldn't he use the real thing if he could? And even disregarding that point, Rand recognized her not because the way she looked but because he actually perceived her soul.

My opinion on the matter is that the entire incident was unintentional; Rand was simply leaking into Moridin's dreams again. They are increasingly becoming the same person per Min's viewing. Thus, I think Lanfear is being genuine, which I don't find all that surprising given that she is probably desperate after being raped both physically and mentally by Moridin for quite some time now.

For those familiar with the different treatment Moghedien and Lanfear have received following their blunders you get what I mean about the particular attention Moridin pays to Lanfear (credit to Terez).

As for what will happen? Well, much like Tamyrlin, I have the the long dormant theory that Lanfear would help Rand with the Bore, after all, she is more knowledgeable about the subject than . . . well, everybody. I don't know if it will come true or not but I'll be rooting for it.

Terez
11-16-2010, 05:22 PM
She seemed to be making a desperate plea for help. My first impression was that this was a genuine plea. Rand seemed concerned for her, and called her by the name "Mierin" rather than "Lanfear." Could this be an indication that enlightened Rand now sees her as her pre-Forsaken persona rather than as evil Lanfear?
He called her Mierin the first time he ever really remembered her, in TFOH6.

She does, in the same chapter (ACoS 35). But we never find out whether the literal viewing is "Rand will fail without a woman who is dead and gone" and Min infers that it's Moiraine, or the viewing is "Rand will fail without Moiraine."
The woman dead and gone is assumed to be Moiraine partly because we knew she wasn't actually dead and gone, partly because Min mentioned her failed viewing just after that, and partly because of 'half the light of the world to save the world'.

amazinglarry
11-16-2010, 05:24 PM
As for what will happen? Well, much like Tamyrlin, I have the the long dormant theory that Lanfear would help Rand with the Bore, after all, she is more knowledgeable about the subject than . . . well, everybody. I don't know if it will come true or not but I'll be rooting for it.

One thing I didn't mention above is that we know that Lanfear is not truly devoted to the Shadow's cause, at least not like Moridin is. She suggested to Rand that they use the Choeden Kal to challenge the DO (or the Creator) in TFoH ch. 6. She's one of the bad guys who joined for personal advancement, not because she simply liked being evil.

It seems to me that Lanfear and Moridin are the only two remaining who could possibly turn, and Moridin is a pretty long shot as others have pointed out in other threads here.

amazinglarry

frenchie
11-16-2010, 05:49 PM
Am I sensing a little hostility towards Demandred?

arioch
11-16-2010, 05:50 PM
The woman dead and gone is assumed to be Moiraine partly because we knew she wasn't actually dead and gone, partly because Min mentioned her failed viewing just after that, and partly because of 'half the light of the world to save the world'.

Unless there's a RJ quote that is definite on this (no weasel words) I am of the opinion that interpreting the "failed viewing" together with the "dead and gone" viewing is very tenuous.

"Half the light of the world to save the world" is a better qualifier by far, but I note that does not exclude Rand tossing Nynaeve out of the candidate list at the last minute to combine with Moiraine and Lanfear.

The argument against the above is that Nynaeve is a much more deft, delicate, and instinctive wielder of the One Power and in that regard is a much better potential candidate than either of the other two.

So, if we CAN assume that Lanfear's cry for help is for real and we extrapolate that extraordinarily far out to her being rescued then helping at the Bore, here are the pros and cons of each candidate as things stand at the end of ToM:

1) Nynaeve

Pros
a) Rand intends to use her
b) Is extraordinarily skilled at delving and healing (the Pattern?)
c) Strong in the One Power (not necessarily needed because she is to help guide saidin with Callandor)

Cons
a) Rand intends to use her (I count this in both columns for a reason and that reason is RJ loves his dramatic irony)

2) Moiraine

Pros
a) Viewings and 'finns says she will be needed to save the world

Cons
a) Rand doesn't know she's alive yet
b) Weak in the One Power (give that bracelet to Nynaeve, thanks? Also strength in the One Power not necessarily required)

3) Lanfear

Pros
a) Probably knows the most about the Pattern and the Bore
b) "dead and gone" viewing was ambiguous enough to be about her, unless contradicted directly and unequivocally by the horse's mouth
c) Still ridiculously strong in the OP (not a criteria?)

Cons
a) Crazy
b) Still evil
c) Cour'souvra

alleluia_cone
11-16-2010, 05:58 PM
Am I sensing a little hostility towards Demandred?

She's basically done what Jordan and Sanderson couldn't, despite repeated attempts and plenty of mismanagement on their parts, and ruined Demandred for me. Just the mental image of it . . . [shudders]


Cons
a) Crazy


There is no way this is a con. You need the crazy factor; it brings a whole level of excitement into play. Knowing Lanfear she'll probably try to fry Aviendha with Callandor before even bothering with the Bore.

arioch
11-16-2010, 06:05 PM
Knowing Lanfear she'll probably try to fry Aviendha with Callandor before even bothering with the Bore.

We do need the blood of the Dragon Reborn on the rocks of Shayol Ghul. Maybe this is also how Aviendha averts the future she saw in the crystal columns. (The Dragon's kids not present anymore to interfere with post-TG Randland politics)

morat'corlm
11-16-2010, 06:20 PM
Knowing Lanfear she'll probably try to fry Aviendha with Callandor before even bothering with the Bore.Just like Rand outsmarted Egwene, he outsmarted Lanfear as well... and not just preemptively, but before he even had access to his full memories. And all it took was sacrificing his modesty by screwing three women at the same time.

"Aviendha is dead, Lews Therin, dead just like that yellow-haired chit Ilyena. Dead! Now you're all mine!"

"Not so fast, Mieren. I still have two in reserve, and I'm not telling you who they are. So are you going to get to work on the Bore or what?"

FelixPax
11-16-2010, 06:56 PM
Can't help but feel sorry for Mierin/Lanfear,evil though she is.

Whether Mierin was or became "EVIL" is highly debatable question.

Why? Hurin's Nose.

Hurin smelled violence on Mierin a Mirror World of the "future", but that smelled went away upon Mierin entering the "present" True World in TGH book. What does this mean? It implies Mierin was not truly evil during the Age of Legends.

Did anyone noticed that Rand's scene with Hurin in TofM was OFF SCENE, too! :D
Hurin would have reminded Rand about Mierin's true role.



First of all, how did she get into Rand's dream? Shouldn't this be impossible with his wards?


Rand and Moridin tied together souls theory would point towards the "two-way bizarre mental connection", as one possibility.

There's another interesting possibility for a cause of how Mierin appeared in Rand's point of view/Dreams in TofM book:


Mierin love for Rand
Rand love for Mierin
Moridin hate for Rand


Remember how Bair answered Egwene al'Vere's question of how a person can be pulled into another person's Dream?

Egwene chose her words carefully. And went on with her dressing, casually, in the same white algode blouse and bulky wool skirt the Wise Ones wore. “Is it possible to be pulled into someone’s dream against your will?”

“Of course not,” Amys said, “not unless your touch is all thumbs.”

But right on top of her, Bair said, “Not unless there is strong emotion involved. If you try to watch the dream of someone who loves or hates you, you can be pulled in. Or if you love or hate them. That last is why we do not dare try to watch Sevanna’s dreams, or even to speak with the Shaido Wise Ones in their dreams.” It still surprised Egwene that these women, and the other Wise Ones, all visited and talked with the Shaido Wise Ones. Wise Ones were supposed to be above feuds and battles, but she would have thought opposing the Car’a’carn, vowing to kill him, took the Shaido well beyond that. “Leaving the dream of someone who hates you, or loves you,” Bair finished, “is like trying to climb from a deep pit with sheer sides.”

Lord of Chaos, Chapter 15 'A Pile of Sand' - Egwene al'Vere point of view; with three Aiel Dreamwalkers: Bair, Amys, Melaine

One remaining open question is, how was Mierin "pulled" away from Rand al'Thor Dream by Moridin, in TofM Book?

If this interaction between was in a 'normal Dream', Mierin should not have been able to been "pulled" away by Moridin, from Rand al'Thor Dream point of view. E.g. - Egwene al'Vere being pulled into Gawyn's Dream repeatedly.

It seems like there is an interplaying of mechanism causes, between the "two-way bizarre mental connection" of Rand & Moridin and Bair's Dream claims of extreme "Love, Hate" to Egwene al'Vere.


Which other historical tales likely influenced Robert Jordan creation of the character of Mierin/Lanfear/Selene?


Tales of Baba Yoga found in Slavic Mythology, found in East, South and West areas of Slavic settlements. Tales are also found in Hungarian, Romanian mythologies among many, many others.
The role of Moon guiding Freemasons from their homes to their Lodges, in the darkness of night.


Yes, my interpretation comes to a different conclusion than Linda's of 13th Depositary does in terms of character parallels for Mierin (http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/lanfear.html). Baba Yoga nor the role of Freemason's Moon are mentioned by Linda in refer to Mierin. But then again, Linda believes Cyndane and Mierin are the same soul, too. :rolleyes:

Who was a foe of Baba Yoga? A Slavic deity named Perun.
Who has elements of Perun in their character in WoT? Rand, Mat, Perrin.

jana
11-16-2010, 09:09 PM
not a criteria?

^ this.

I feel more strongly about this than probably anything else that will happen in the final book. Strength in the OP will not matter (at all) when fighting the Dark One.

It will matter when all the good guys are fighting the Dark One's minions, but Rand's job (and thus the job of whoever he links with) isn't to fight a bunch of random minions. We've seen that plenty of times. It would just be silly. He's not the Dragon Reborn because he's super strong in the OP.


This is how Rand seems to feel too. I'm not saying he's infallible, but he never once says "I need someone strong in the power to wield callandor with me." He says "I need someone I can trust."

Ishara
11-17-2010, 08:16 AM
As for what will happen? Well, much like Tamyrlin, I have the the long dormant theory that Lanfear would help Rand with the Bore, after all, she is more knowledgeable about the subject than . . . well, everybody. I don't know if it will come true or not but I'll be rooting for it.
I'm still sceptical on that. She discovered the energy source and created the Bore, but we STILL don't know if she had a clue as to what the energy source was at the time, or if she made the Bore intentionally or not. Just because she was there doesn't convince me that she's an expert on the thing. We simply don't have enough to go on there, in my opinion. All we have is the PoV of an Aiel (who she wouldn't have shared all the details with).

One thing I didn't mention above is that we know that Lanfear is not truly devoted to the Shadow's cause, at least not like Moridin is. ... She's one of the bad guys who joined for personal advancement, not because she simply liked being evil.

It seems to me that Lanfear and Moridin are the only two remaining who could possibly turn, and Moridin is a pretty long shot as others have pointed out in other threads here.

I would say that with the execption of Moridin - they ALL joined the Dark Side for reasons of personal advancement - that and being evil are not mutually exclusive ideas. The only clue we've been given to how Lanfear came to be a Forsaken is that she was greedy. But, so was Graendal, so was Moghedian. So was Demandred, for that matter. He wants the credit, the limelight, the attention that LTT got during the AoL - that's why he joined.

I can't say that I see her turning to the Light, but I can see her acting for her own best interests, and the two coinciding for a breif period of time.

Belazamon
11-17-2010, 02:21 PM
I'm still sceptical on that. She discovered the energy source and created the Bore, but we STILL don't know if she had a clue as to what the energy source was at the time, or if she made the Bore intentionally or not. Just because she was there doesn't convince me that she's an expert on the thing. We simply don't have enough to go on there, in my opinion. All we have is the PoV of an Aiel (who she wouldn't have shared all the details with).
No, but if she was instrumental in opening a hole in reality, that at least implies that she might have some ideas on how to repair said hole in reality. It could have all been a huge accident, but the end result was pretty damn similar to the stated goal, even if Mierin wasn't expecting to find exactly what she found.

Neilbert
11-17-2010, 02:28 PM
but the end result was pretty damn similar to the stated goal

IIRC the stated goal was to tap into a power source that both males and females could use.

The True Power meets this criteria admirably.

Belazamon
11-17-2010, 02:39 PM
IIRC the stated goal was to tap into a power source that both males and females could use.

The True Power meets this criteria admirably.
Well, that too. I was more referring to the "tap into" portion, myself.

alleluia_cone
11-17-2010, 04:01 PM
I'm still sceptical on that. She discovered the energy source and created the Bore, but we STILL don't know if she had a clue as to what the energy source was at the time, or if she made the Bore intentionally or not. Just because she was there doesn't convince me that she's an expert on the thing. We simply don't have enough to go on there, in my opinion. All we have is the PoV of an Aiel (who she wouldn't have shared all the details with).

I'm not assuming it was intentional, if anything, I assume it was the opposite. And no, I don't think she knew what the True Power was. But given that she was the leading researcher in the leading research institution during the Age of Legends and was the one directly responsible for figuring out that another power source existed and how to tap into it . . . well, by my book, that makes her more knowledgeable about the One Power than anybody. She knows its limits, what it can do, how it can create a Bore into the Dark One's prison, and presumably, how the One Power and the True Power interact.

I know some people will have trouble coming to grips with this thought but if Lanfear was an Aes Sedai today, she'd be Brown Ajah, and the most accomplished at that. You can see this even in the way she knows so much about the Mirror Worlds and the Dream World and pretty much everything else, including which sa'angreal are the most powerful. She's like a vast reservoir of ancient and esoteric knowledge.

So given all that, and because she did in fact create the Bore, you'd think she would be the most knowledgeable about the subject. Whether she ends up helping Rand or not, and has a "memory of light," that's another issue entirely.

arioch
11-17-2010, 04:22 PM
So given all that, and because she did in fact create the Bore, you'd think she would be the most knowledgeable about the subject. Whether she ends up helping Rand or not, and has a "memory of light," that's another issue entirely.

From my understanding of where people are in the story, it appears to me that Lanfear is the missing piece of the puzzle Rand needs to do what it seems like he must do at Shayol Ghul, which is why I'm giving the Lanfear "redemption" arc theory as much credence as I'm giving. And again, not so much a "redemption" as a temporary intersection of "self interest" and the "common good".

Ishara
11-17-2010, 07:37 PM
Put it another way - just because BP knew how to tap into oil at the bottom of the ocean doesn't mean that they knew how to close that hole. That's where I'm coming from.

Curious yes, knowledgeable, not necessarily.

jana
11-17-2010, 07:47 PM
I'm not discounting the possibility that she comes back to Light.

But I would hate it. And if I was Moiraine I would kill her :p

Neilbert
11-17-2010, 10:24 PM
Put it another way - just because BP knew how to tap into oil at the bottom of the ocean doesn't mean that they knew how to close that hole. That's where I'm coming from.

Curious yes, knowledgeable, not necessarily.

Yes, and damn you for making me take BP's side in this metaphor, but I will still take BP over someone who has never drilled or even seen the bottom of an ocean.

amazinglarry
11-17-2010, 10:37 PM
Put it another way - just because BP knew how to tap into oil at the bottom of the ocean doesn't mean that they knew how to close that hole. That's where I'm coming from.

Lanfear: Hi Rand, I decided to turn to the Light side and help you close the bore.
Rand: Great, I've figured out that we have to break the seals but what should we do next?
Lanfear: I have this great idea. Let's throw a bunch of garbage and golf balls in it.

amazinglarry

alleluia_cone
11-17-2010, 10:37 PM
I'm not saying Lanfear has all the solutions but she really is the best placed person to know a lot about the topics that Rand needs to know about: the Dark One, the True Power, the limits of the One Power, the reason the seals are failing, the other Forsaken, Moridin, etc.

Edit: Expanding on my point, it's almost certainly true that Lanfear doesn't know how to close the Bore even though she might posses information which would help in the matter. As I'm sure everyone remembers, her plan in dealing with the Dark One was to blast him using the access keys, which has already been implied wouldn't work and in any case, can't work at this point because they are gone.

jana
11-17-2010, 10:41 PM
Let's throw a bunch of garbage and golf balls in it.

:D

Neilbert
11-18-2010, 12:43 AM
As I'm sure everyone remembers, her plan in dealing with the Dark One was to blast him using the access keys

I don't remember that. I remember her planning on supplanting the Dark One and maybe even the creator using the access keys, but I don't ever recall her giving any specifics on how she intended to do so and I certainly don't recall a plan to "blast" anything.

Ishara
11-18-2010, 08:30 AM
Yes, and damn you for making me take BP's side in this metaphor, but I will still take BP over someone who has never drilled or even seen the bottom of an ocean.

LOL :p Interesting question: I don't think that Lanfear has used the TP, ever. Has she? If not, then how would she know anything about it, beyond the fact that it can be used by both men and women, and that it's straight from the DO? The other Forsaken have actually channeled it, I would say that they are more knowledgeable about it.

And yeah, I would say that her plan was to use the keys as a threat to supplant power, as opposed to a nuclear strike to ensure she got it.

manolin
11-23-2010, 04:39 AM
not in this age, but for sure in the last age: she is smart and curious about things which can increase her power.

alleluia_cone
11-23-2010, 10:30 AM
LOL :p Interesting question: I don't think that Lanfear has used the TP, ever. Has she? If not, then how would she know anything about it, beyond the fact that it can be used by both men and women, and that it's straight from the DO? The other Forsaken have actually channeled it, I would say that they are more knowledgeable about it.

And yeah, I would say that her plan was to use the keys as a threat to supplant power, as opposed to a nuclear strike to ensure she got it.

There is no indication one way or another. As the previous poster stated, it does not seem likely she used the True Power during this age. Having said that, if I remember correctly, twenty-nine people were allowed to use it by the Dark One during the Age of Legends. Given she's the strongest woman ever and the one directly responsible for setting him free, I surmise that the Dark One probably included her as one of those twenty-nine. There is also the fact that she was the one studying the True Power when it was first discovered and she was the one who figured out how to tap into it, thus creating the Bore. Whether she was actually able to learn anything about the True Power from these experiences is up to speculation but she was, without question, best placed out of anybody, with the exception of Moridin perhaps, to figure out its secrets.

looqas
11-29-2010, 04:07 AM
If it is genuine, it could be foreshadowing that Lanfear will flip to the light side. Rand told Nynaeve about his plans for using Callandor and seemed certain about her participation, but he waffled on who the 3rd woman would be. I wonder if this could be setting up Mierin as the 3rd.

amazinglarry

It certainly smells like that to me too. And who better to be there than the woman who actually drilled open the can of worms in the first place.

I was actually starting to think that it would be quite cool and twisty if Mierin was the 3rd woman on Rand's grave. Min would be killed of course. Actually if I'm brutally honest I would change any of Rand's 3 honeys to Mierin in a blink of an eye.

About Moiraine being the 3rd; I've been wondering what Moiraine says that "she still might have role to play in all this." It always smacked me that's it's an option and not a requirement to win at the LB. I know Moiraine has a vital role to play in winning, but I kinda hope it's not the Callandor one.

yasiru89
11-29-2010, 04:38 AM
Interesting was the mention of strong emotions attracting dreams back from Egwene and Gawyn's dream sex session. The obvious answer though is that Moridin figured out how to use the connection between him and Rand- seeing as they met that time for a pleasant fireside chat, he could have been working on it for a while now.
Whichever it is, I can see Mierin being instrumental somehow in the sealing of the Bore, but only as a source of knowledge. And perhaps not even a truly repentant and willing one.
Likely Rand's Callandor circle will have Nynaeve (though even she isn't a sure thing despite Rand's intention) and Alivia. I don't think Moiraine or Mierin will be involved there at all.

In fact, with Alivia- how about the theory that they lose Callandor halfway through, but maintain the circle, and Rand has to remain defenceless without Callandor with Alivia in charge to complete the job (perhaps the saidar related portion of it) and that's how he gets killed? Fulfils Alivia helping him die, right?

Anyway, I'm partial to the view that Mierin was genuinely asking for help back in Rand's dream. But even if it's a trap, he's probably going to try saving her anyway, and perhaps drags her in tow as he escapes and then forces her to relent information.

alleluia_cone
11-29-2010, 11:36 AM
Anyway, I'm partial to the view that Mierin was genuinely asking for help back in Rand's dream. But even if it's a trap, he's probably going to try saving her anyway, and perhaps drags her in tow as he escapes and then forces her to relent information.

I think you bring up an interesting point which has seemingly gone unmentioned in discussing whether Lanfear is being genuine or not, which is, that whatever the truth of that question, isn't it almost certain that Rand will try to rescue her anyway?

Does anyone want to conjecture that Rand will not go running after Lanfear?

Because I'm almost taking that as a given which brings up a whole host of other questions.

yasiru89
11-29-2010, 12:05 PM
Yes, Rand is most probably going to do a Mat and try and rescue her.
One thing I always found curious is why Lanfear ever got mindtrapped in the first place. She didn't exactly screw up as badly as Moghedien- she just got herself trapped in Finnland and presumably killed. Did the Dark One learn of her ambitions?

GonzoTheGreat
11-29-2010, 12:16 PM
She did try to kill Rand at a moment when that was politically incorrect*.

* Should we launch the term Shadowically Incorrect (SI), or is there a better term anyone can come up with?

Bryan
11-29-2010, 12:17 PM
Regardless of whether Lanfear is truly "evil" she is batshit insane and I don't know how Rand could ever trust her. Smells like a trap to me.

GonzoTheGreat
11-29-2010, 12:19 PM
Regardless of whether Lanfear is truly "evil" she is batshit insane and I don't know how Rand could ever trust her. Smells like a trap to me.Only someone who was batshit insane himself wouldn't spot that. Fortunately Rand is totally sane now.

dominominic
11-29-2010, 12:32 PM
Yes, Rand is most probably going to do a Mat and try and rescue her.
One thing I always found curious is why Lanfear ever got mindtrapped in the first place. She didn't exactly screw up as badly as Moghedien- she just got herself trapped in Finnland and presumably killed. Did the Dark One learn of her ambitions?

Read Terez' "Forsaken Love Story" thread. It's interesting.

looqas
11-29-2010, 01:57 PM
Yes, Rand is most probably going to do a Mat and try and rescue her.
One thing I always found curious is why Lanfear ever got mindtrapped in the first place. She didn't exactly screw up as badly as Moghedien- she just got herself trapped in Finnland and presumably killed. Did the Dark One learn of her ambitions?


If you read Ghenjei part (or rather the rabbit supper chapter) carefully you see that Moiraine said there had been a man looking for someone and Moiraine was not her. So obviously Moridin came to cash in Lanfear. This raises a very interesting question what Moridin had to pay for his requests. I'm pretty sure the price is hinted at earlier in Mor's POVs or Forsaken dealings. Or if not Moridin then really good choice is Slayer since there's an unexplained connection between him and the tower of Ghenjei.

Also Finns feeding on power capacity of a channeler neatly explained why Cyndane was not as powerful as Lanfear had been. Although she was still immensely powerful. Lanfear's death had been a working accident on 'finns part.

Fain Jarstrider
11-29-2010, 01:59 PM
Actually if I'm brutally honest I would change any of Rand's 3 honeys to Mierin in a blink of an eye.


Sadly, I have the same opinion. (ok heres my crazy) Maybe Avienda will come to the conclusion that to avert the future she cant let Rands babies be born (maybe Lanfear was Nakomi and is going to compulse her haha) :)

yasiru89
11-29-2010, 02:39 PM
Read Terez' "Forsaken Love Story" thread. It's interesting.
I did, but I like to think there's something more substantial or clear plot-wise for this fate to have befallen her.
I don't buy the 'tried to kill Rand at the wrong time' theory either- that Draghkar could have killed him and nearly did had Aviendha not fried it.

Slayer being able to seek refuge in the Tower of Ghenjei when Birgitte said it was even more difficult if not impossible to escape it from the Dream, leads me to the conclusion that the Shadow has some sort of arrangement with the Finn.

alleluia_cone
11-29-2010, 05:29 PM
I did, but I like to think there's something more substantial or clear plot-wise for this fate to have befallen her.
I don't buy the 'tried to kill Rand at the wrong time' theory either- that Draghkar could have killed him and nearly did had Aviendha not fried it.

Slayer being able to seek refuge in the Tower of Ghenjei when Birgitte said it was even more difficult if not impossible to escape it from the Dream, leads me to the conclusion that the Shadow has some sort of arrangement with the Finn.

Even if you are not entirely convinced with Terez' theory, I think you would have to acknowledge there is some undercurrent to Lanfear's relationship with Moridin. I think there is enough evidence of this both in the meeting that Perrin witnessed between them, as well as in their interactions after Lanfear has been enslaved.

As for this topic in general, I'm more interested in the question of when Rand is going to go on his crazy jaunt to save Mierin. He is so pressed for time that it seems highly unlikely he will bother, especially when taking everything else into consideration, but then again, I have to think he will in fact go because, otherwise, the dream at the end of ToM will just be a cheap and irrelevant cliffhanger.

Could what Moiraine has to tell him spurn him in some way? She would seem to have interesting information about Lanfear; perhaps her wishes to the Finns or even something else learned while captive together. Any other ideas?

yasiru89
11-29-2010, 08:37 PM
It was exactly the exchange that Perrin witnesses that for me detracts from that theory. But I guess we'll see.
I can see Egwene ordering a Domination Band if Rand announced he's off for a quick jaunt to save one of the Forsaken before he heads on to the Last Battle. :D
The both of them got wishes right? I can see Moiraine trying to screw things up for Lanfear with her wishes- after all, back when they fell through the archway, Lanfear was the major obstacle in Rand's path to victory at Tarmon Gai'don (Ishamael was believed gone). Perhaps this is how she ends up getting Mindtrapped- Moiraine told on her. (I'm half serious though, it could be something Moiraine did to take her out of the game and clear the path)
Moiraine would have been guided by the visions of life choices she saw in making her wishes- this is why I think Moiraine's role in saving the world is to provide the final clues that fit everything together.
Going by Lanfear's interests at that point, I might wager she asked for a ter'angreal access key to the Choedan Kal (the Finn could provide one right? They'd be able to find out where the surviving ones are), though she gives no indication of it during Moridin sending everyone off to stop the cleansing. Not that it matters now, but that could well have been one of her wishes. I've no idea for the rest, because the miserable existence she seems to suffer through appears devoid of any boons. Or perhaps what she wished for are useless in her current condition.

FelixPax
11-29-2010, 11:13 PM
Lanfear's death had been a working accident on 'finns part.

Then who is the woman Rand al'Thor once called Selene, who L.T.T once knew as Mierin Eronaile? (See TofM, Epilogue "And After")

Lanfear is not dead. :D


Mat Cauthon still has not fulfilled Egwene's Dream:

Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended...She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps.

The Path of Daggers, Chapter 15 "Stronger Than Written Law" - Egwene point of view; a Dream foretelling




What character parallel or mythology background was most likely draw to aid the creation of Mierin/Lanfear/Selene character?

Baba Yaga.
The ever famous Baba Yaga tales.

Lanfear is to be the 4th Maiden, for Rand al'Thor to marry on Sunday. ;)

morat'corlm
11-29-2010, 11:29 PM
Felix, you almost convinced me that there might be something that possibly could be interpreted as Lanfear≠Cyndane in the epilogue, but then I remembered that she is described as having the soul recognizable as Lanfear but looking exactly like Cyndane, which instead drives the final nail in the coffin of that theory.

Still, a good effort.

doomsgate
11-30-2010, 09:30 AM
mat has fulfilled the dream by placing moraine over verin.

Belazamon
11-30-2010, 01:18 PM
mat has fulfilled the dream by placing moraine over verin.
Giggity.

Casabamelon
11-30-2010, 02:44 PM
mat has fulfilled the dream by placing moraine over verin.
Giggity.

*horf*
________
HEADSHOPS (http://headshop.net/)

FelixPax
11-30-2010, 04:25 PM
Felix, you almost convinced me that there might be something that possibly could be interpreted as Lanfear≠Cyndane in the epilogue, but then I remembered that she is described as having the soul recognizable as Lanfear but looking exactly like Cyndane, which instead drives the final nail in the coffin of that theory.

Still, a good effort.

Okay, can you show us all your proof that one character looked into Cyndane's eyes and could tell that Mierin's Soul is WITHIN Cyndane's body?


Your difficulty is, there is NOT a single quotation in the series anywhere to back-up this memory. The only person to have claimed to have looked into Mierin's eyes is Rand al'Thor, who now possesses and accepts all of L.T.T.'s memories (TofM).

Why did Mierin look so old in TofM book possibly?


The Eelfinn's price was to "age" Mierin.
Even Mat Cauthon knows of tales, where the Eelfinn & Aelfinn did exactly this.

finn
11-30-2010, 09:15 PM
We have Cyndane's POV to indicate it is Lanfear's soul transmigrated.
mat has fulfilled the dream by placing moraine over verin.

Probably yes. Although we haven't yet seen if he made the right decision with Caemlyn in peril, the Finns think his bargain for Moiraine will save the world.

yasiru89
12-01-2010, 01:58 AM
Is Elayne instead of Verin there less 'giggity' or more? The former basically identifies herself with Andor (if she refers to herself as 'the Crown' again I swear I'll add 'Elayne's survival' as a book-burning-inducingly bad development on that other thread. Even Moridin's Nae'blis routine didn't piss me off that much.

Especially not 'the Crown will take a bath'!

FelixPax
12-01-2010, 02:12 AM
We have Cyndane's POV to indicate it is Lanfear's soul transmigrated.

Did morat'corlm mention an Cyndane POV? No.

but then I remembered that she is described as having the soul recognizable as Lanfear but looking exactly like Cyndane, which instead drives the final nail in the coffin of that theory.


Finn, if your referring to Cyndane POV in Winter's Heart in Chapter 35, that is extremely misleading POV and absolutely WRONG. Ever heard of a Chosen using Compulsion on an individual? That's as good of an explanation for Cyndane POV in Winter's Heart as any other. There are other major behavioral or cognitive problems with the Cyndane = Lanfear theory, which have been mentioned in prior threads at Theoryland forum by myself.


Why would Moridin torture Mierin daily in a Dream (TofM), if he already controls her via a Mindtrap? It makes no sense at all.

GonzoTheGreat
12-01-2010, 03:58 AM
Why would Moridin torture Mierin daily in a Dream (TofM), if he already controls her via a Mindtrap? It makes no sense at all.Remind me again, please: why should we expect the actions of a known madman to make sense?

yasiru89
12-01-2010, 04:09 AM
Remind me again, please: why should we expect the actions of a known madman to make sense?
Is he mad though? I think he's just going batsh*t crazy because once the Dark One is free there won't be much more time to go insane (and everyone wants to at least once, come on- admit it! :D), so he's a hedonist. Then there's sense to his actions also- he's exploring sadism, Shadow style (perhaps had it recommended from Shaidar Haran who is into all sorts of nasty stuff... like, um... rape.). Even explains his overuse of the True Power (and a a joke on the Shadow's part, since the name seems to imply that it's the only true power you can hold before everything comes to an end!).

looqas
12-01-2010, 05:19 AM
Why would Moridin torture Mierin daily in a Dream (TofM), if he already controls her via a Mindtrap? It makes no sense at all.

Because dreams and thoughts are usually one's own property. If you can torture a human in those areas then you totally own them. There simply is no escape to anywhere after that.

yasiru89
12-01-2010, 05:31 AM
Because dreams and thoughts are usually one's own property. If you can torture a human in those areas then you totally own them. There simply is no escape to anywhere after that.
There are so many ways of literally 'getting owned' in WoT- being da'covale, mindtrapped, Galina'd with the Oath Rod, etc.

And also, Moridin doesn't fully control her, it's the risk of it that makes them obey. Perhaps she made some small transgression. Perhaps killing that minion way back when, can't remember exactly.

finn
12-01-2010, 12:57 PM
Did morat'corlm mention an Cyndane POV? No.Was my post a response to anyone in particular? No.

Finn, if your referring to Cyndane POV in Winter's Heart in Chapter 35, that is extremely misleading POV and absolutely WRONG. Ever heard of a Chosen using Compulsion on an individual? That's as good of an explanation for Cyndane POV in Winter's Heart as any other. There are other major behavioral or cognitive problems with the Cyndane = Lanfear theory, which have been mentioned in prior threads at Theoryland forum by myself. As I haven't heard of any of those problems, allow me to hold on to my scepticism for the time being. Are you really suggesting that someone would compel Cyndane to "believe" she was Lanfear? Sorry but that's far-fetched. What would be the point?

Anyone could allege any of the other POVs to be misleading by reason of compulsion. I could say Nynaeve and Elayne never really captured Moghedien, they just thought they did and all the other events were just an elaborate plot by the spider, all scripted after they were first placed under her compulsion in Tanchico. Similarly Egwene could be under compulsion by Arangar, or Rand by Lanfear. Everyones POVs could be suspect.

Why would Moridin torture Mierin daily in a Dream (TofM), if he already controls her via a Mindtrap? It makes no sense at all.
You mean apart from him being Insane, sadistic, domineering, following the Dark One's orders for punishment, simply exercising the authority to put one of the Chosen in her place or any one of the other excellent reasons given in the posts above??

Maybe the dream is a fake, something to lure Rand into a trap. I find that more likely than the idea of some regular girl thinking she's Lanfear in her head. Shadar Haran told Graendal that another had the task of dealing with Rand. Rand can now expose darkfriends and can't be broken by the usual means. So what options does the shadow have left? Rand's fully integrated with Lews Therin with all his memories, a source of vast experience and strength but also a potential weakness. If he still desires Mierin, why not use that against him? Give him a vision of her, regretful and in pain, another damsel in distress for Lews Therin to "rescue".

Glen
12-11-2010, 07:16 AM
I'm starting to wonder about Mierin/Lanfear. There's an oddity to her overall character that makes me think there's more to her than meets the eye.

Let's summarise some of the key events that have involved Lanfear since the start of the series.

- She travels with Rand through a mirror world, and tries to guide him to develop his ability to channel.
- She repeatedly tries to seduce Rand, even before the keys to the Choedal Kal have been found.
- She masquerades as Else Grinwell and gives Egwene/Elayne/Nynaeve information that helps them track the Black Ajah.
- It is speculated that she appeared to Egwene as Silvie and informed her about Callandor.
- She spent time travelling amongst Aiel as Keille Shaogi, and when the chance comes, she almost-shields Asmodean in order to get him to help Rand.

Note that all of this is before "Cyndane".

The only times that she has actually done anything against the Light is when inspired by jealousy. Which is curious, in my view.

Now, regarding Cyndane - she has been "mindtrapped". What the mindtrap does, or so it is said, is that it traps the person's soul, or at least the essence of it. If the mindtrap is then crushed, the person's willpower disappears and they basically become a mindless puppet.

Think about it - what would happen to Lanfear if her soul (which, for the sake of our discussion, we'll assume is not that of a supporter of the dark) is separated from her? Her behaviour is consistent with this idea - she would act pretty much just as Cyndane has been.

But her soul would hold onto the part of her that is fighting against the Shadow. This may be the origin of Mierin's appearance in Rand's dream - Moridin holds her mindtrap, and her soul is reaching out through either T'A'R or Moridin in order to contact Rand, now that he can hold off the Dark One's influence. Her behaviour in his dream could be a combination of true feelings and some subtle manipulation in an effort to win over Rand.

This could conceivably also explain Aviendha's meeting with Nakomi; if Lanfear is able to be herself while Dreaming (note the capital D), she might actually pull Aviendha into T'A'R for the discussion, and have good intentions.

Aran'gar expressed, in KoD, that she was uncertain that Cyndane was really Lanfear. This would make sense if my theory is accurate, as Cyndane would only be showing Lanfear's evil elements, and thus would lack much of her previous personality.


Lanfear lusts for power, but I suspect that she was never truly aligned with the Shadow - I think she has been a double-agent all along. Her actions in the AoL are even curious - she proclaimed her 'loyalty' to the Shadow in the Hall of Servants itself... most of the others revealed their loyalty through acts against the Light, but Lanfear just made an announcement. Meanwhile, she is attributed as having "tormented" people in their dreams during the War of Power... what if she only tormented a few in order to establish an MO, and otherwise allowed most other nightmares to be attributed to her?

She is described as having contributed much to the shadow, but seems to have operated purely in dreams... this seems strange to me, given how strong she was in the OP. But if she's been a double-agent all along, it makes sense.

Lanfear is the only Forsaken who was able to get Rand into a situation (via the Portal Stones) in which he was separated from anyone who might seriously protect him from her, and thus could easily have used her mastery of compulsion to basically win the war for the Shadow, or alternatively to plant the appropriate seeds to make sure he would be malleable to her influence. But she didn't do that. Why not? She seemed to do nothing except work to help Rand develop his ability to channel... and then did it again via Asmodean later on.

Why did Lanfear get mindtrapped in the first place? As a subversive amongst the Shadow, it makes sense. But if she really was working primarily for the Shadow (and for herself if the opportunity arose), then she'd just be doing as expected by the DO.



In short, I wouldn't be surprised if Lanfear was the Forsaken equivalent of Verin, at least in the sense of being bound to the Shadow, but not truly loyal to the Shadow.

Weird Harold
12-11-2010, 05:04 PM
I'm starting to wonder about Mierin/Lanfear. There's an oddity to her overall character that makes me think there's more to her than meets the eye.

...

The only times that she has actually done anything against the Light is when inspired by jealousy. Which is curious, in my view.

Ther is both More to Lanfear and Less to Lanfear than meets the eye. Lanfear isn't a dedicated and loyal Darkfriend, but she's not working for the Light either. Lanfear has one and only one priority: What Lanfear Wants, Lanfear Gets.

If you think of her as a stereotypical Psycho Cheerleader who never grew up -- Crossed with Awesome Powers of Petty Revenge (a la Carrie (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074285/)) and you get Lanfear.

When you can get her to focus on a mission, she's effective, but she'd much rather let someone else do it and steal the credit.

Now, regarding Cyndane - she has been "mindtrapped". What the mindtrap does, or so it is said, is that it traps the person's soul, or at least the essence of it. If the mindtrap is then crushed, the person's willpower disappears and they basically become a mindless puppet.

A question I've never been able to answer precisely is whether mind-traps block the ability to Dreamwalk or otherwise enter T'A'R. IIRC, the only time we've seen Mierin's soul in anything dream related since Lanfear died was in the Epilogue of ToM. I'm pretty sure we haven't seen any evidence of Moghedien involved with Dreams or T'A'R since she was mind-trapped either.

Stripped of her main abilities, and much of her strength in the OP, and being mind-trapped, Lanfear becomes Cyndane -- the equivlent of the Head Cheerleader graduating and having to get a real job where her looks and "dadddy's money" won't get her anything except another rude customer who has to think about the answer to, "Do you want fries with that?"





In short, I wouldn't be surprised if Lanfear ... bound to the Shadow, but not truly loyal to the Shadow.

That's kind of a, "Well Duh! How long did it take to figure That out?" kind of conclusion. :D The Double agent part is new, but the basic conclusion that Lanfear isn't the most Evil (or stable) of Evil Minions is pretty much taken for granted.

Belazamon
12-12-2010, 12:20 AM
A question I've never been able to answer precisely is whether mind-traps block the ability to Dreamwalk or otherwise enter T'A'R. IIRC, the only time we've seen Mierin's soul in anything dream related since Lanfear died was in the Epilogue of ToM. I'm pretty sure we haven't seen any evidence of Moghedien involved with Dreams or T'A'R since she was mind-trapped either.
'Fraid that's not the case. The Forsaken Meetings in KoD and in WH take place in TAR ("The chairs could have been anything, here in Tel’aran’rhiod"), and Cyndane and Moghedien are both at the second one.

Weird Harold
12-12-2010, 12:30 AM
'Fraid that's not the case. The Forsaken Meetings in KoD and in WH take place in TAR ("The chairs could have been anything, here in Tel’aran’rhiod"), and Cyndane and Moghedien are both at the second one.
Good point, but I'm not sure that's not a special case because they're presumably there with Moridin, who holds their mindtraps. Perhaps I should have said I can't recall any instance of independent action in T'A'R.

Belazamon
12-12-2010, 12:35 AM
Perhaps I should have said I can't recall any instance of independent action in T'A'R.
Perhaps you should have, if that's what you meant. ;)

Weird Harold
12-12-2010, 12:44 AM
Perhaps you should have, if that's what you meant. ;)
Well, it isn't precisely what I mean -- obviously they are NOT capable of much independent action anywhere, but I always forget the Forsaken Coffe Hours because they seem to be more accessories to Moridin's stage management than real characters in those scenes.

Glen
12-12-2010, 02:02 AM
That's kind of a, "Well Duh! How long did it take to figure That out?" kind of conclusion. :D The Double agent part is new, but the basic conclusion that Lanfear isn't the most Evil (or stable) of Evil Minions is pretty much taken for granted.

I think you missed my point. Lanfear's loyalty, according to standard speculation, is to whatever can give her power. She will be loyal to the Dark so long as the Dark offers her power and she can't get more than the Dark offers, is the common view.

My thought is that perhaps that isn't true; that is, perhaps Lanfear's loyalty is actually to the Light, and that her apparent defection to the Dark was a farce because she felt that she could gain the coveted third name through bringing down the Dark One's forces from the inside. She is enamoured by power, but the Dark One can't truly give her what she wants.

Another way to think of it is this way: Mierin feels responsible for unleashing the Dark One; she could never truly be considered to be "great" until she undoes her biggest mistake. And her thirst for power isn't so much about the power itself, as it is about the recognition of the power. And as such, helping the Dark One win wouldn't give her that desired recognition, so she couldn't really be "loyal" to the Dark One.

Juan
12-12-2010, 02:49 AM
@Glen
I don't think so. Lanfear is indeed loyal only to herself and her own ambitions. Her loyalty is not to the Light. If the Light gave her that power and recognition then you could argue that she would then turn to the Light. And even then she wouldn't be loyal to the Light, but rather be using the Light to achieve her own ambitions.

We've seen evil act after evil act committed by Lanfear. Her unstableness and her way of thinking is not of one who would be loyal to the Light. She's not going to pull a Verin on us because they're two completely different people with very different goals, motivations, mentalities, etc. etc.

Glen
12-12-2010, 04:31 AM
@Glen
I don't think so. Lanfear is indeed loyal only to herself and her own ambitions. Her loyalty is not to the Light. If the Light gave her that power and recognition then you could argue that she would then turn to the Light. And even then she wouldn't be loyal to the Light, but rather be using the Light to achieve her own ambitions.

We've seen evil act after evil act committed by Lanfear. Her unstableness and her way of thinking is not of one who would be loyal to the Light. She's not going to pull a Verin on us because they're two completely different people with very different goals, motivations, mentalities, etc. etc.
As demonstrated by Fain, and as demonstrated by Semirhage prior to the bore, evil =/= Dark. One can be evil, but opposed to the Dark (as with Fain), or unaware of the Dark (as with pre-bore Semirhage).

When I say that she is loyal to the Light, I mean it in the sense that she perceives the Light as the only way that she can get what she wants.

When I compare her with Verin, it is not to say that they are truly comparable, but that there is a similarity in that they have always been working against the Dark. What distinguishes them is motive. Verin's motivation is Light itself. Lanfear's motivation is personal ambition. And this means that the nature of Lanfear's actions will be very different from those of Verin. Verin wasn't concerned with appearances; she ensured her own death in order to do the right thing, whereas Lanfear wants to be seen as a saviour.

Many have speculated that Lanfear will actually play a role in the permanent re-sealing of the bore. I could definitely see it happening, in conjunction with all of this. Not only does she know how the bore was created in the first place, but she effectively organised Rand's training in how to use the One Power.

She has been worked up throughout the series as perhaps the worst of the forsaken... yet when you look at her actual actions, her only "evil" actions have been driven by pure jealousy. Compare, by the way, with one of the least evil-seeming forsaken, Asmodean. He went around maiming artists just for the fun of it once he joined the Dark. What did Lanfear do? A bit of meddling with peoples' dreams?

Weird Harold
12-12-2010, 05:01 AM
My thought is that perhaps that isn't true; that is, perhaps Lanfear's loyalty is actually to the Light, and that her apparent defection to the Dark was a farce because she felt that she could gain the coveted third name through bringing down the Dark One's forces from the inside. She is enamoured by power, but the Dark One can't truly give her what she wants.

Lanfear's loyalty has been, ever and always, only to Lanfear -- at least in Lanfear's mind; the DO and Moridin apparently disagree.

I personally don't think Lanfear is capable of seeing any consequence that disgrees with her view of what is due her. She wouldn't think far enough ahead to consider actually earning a third name; in her mind, she deserves that third name simply for being born. Doing something for the light, who generally scorn her ambitions as unseemly, wouldn't occur to her, and the Shadow vocabulary pretty much doesn't include "can't" -- or didn't until recently -- so it is the perfect place for someone like Lanfear who has never recognised the word as applying to her anyway.

I can't see Lanfear getting beyond her "the universe revolves around me" mentality to consider helping even a rich old lady acraoss the street, let alone put herself in mortal danger to help people who keep saying "can't."

LIke I said before the double agent idea is new, but I really can't see the common conception of Lanfear as being that far off.

GonzoTheGreat
12-12-2010, 05:09 AM
What did Lanfear do? A bit of meddling with peoples' dreams?Yep, that's about it. As the BWB states:
While never a field commander, Lanfear was very useful to the Dark One both before and during the War of the Shadow. Using dreams, she guided a number of operations that turned people against established authority, creating massive riots. She is credited with winning several battles for the Shadow by the same means. She is credited with driving a number of people mad and driving others to suicide, as well as performing outright assassinations in Tel'aran'rhiod.

Aside from these useful pursuits, Lanfear served as a governor of conquered territory at least once. She was involved in many atrocities, perhaps more than most of the Forsaken, but the people she governed had more than the usual horrors of the Shadow to face; they feared sleep itself. Suicide rates were extremely high in her territory, even considering the fact that suicide was endemic in all the conquered territories.

Glen
12-12-2010, 06:31 AM
Lanfear's loyalty has been, ever and always, only to Lanfear -- at least in Lanfear's mind; the DO and Moridin apparently disagree.
I agree - she places herself ahead of everything else. But this is what distinguishes her from the rest of the Forsaken; the rest of them fight and maneouvre for the position of Naeblis, but Lanfear doesn't seem to actually care about it.

She wouldn't think far enough ahead to consider actually earning a third name; in her mind, she deserves that third name simply for being born.
Her history contradicts you on this. She was the one who did the research to find a new source of power. It was to be her amazing contribution, the act that would earn her a third name. It wasn't that she wasn't trying to earn a third name, it was that she felt she had already earned it... but she would keep trying until she made it.

To the rest of the Forsaken, the Dark allowed them to play out their fantasies, essentially. Asmodean, for instance, got to mutilate artists, and Semirhage got to perform her twisted experiments. What did Lanfear get out of it? There was no more reason for her to work for the Dark than for the Light. So why did she defect? What was in it for her? The supposed reasons were the power that she could get and the opportunity to get Lews Therin.

But she was considered the strongest a woman can be in the One Power. She had power in that form already. She didn't want power, she wanted prestige, and she couldn't get that from the Dark One. Meanwhile, Lews Therin was on the side of the Light. Defecting to the Dark wouldn't help her to get Lews Therin. She was jealous, she hungered for prestige... but neither motivation fits her defection.

In short, the whole... mythology... surrounding Lanfear just doesn't seem to mesh quite right. It wasn't enough on its own, though - what it took to make me question it is our most recent view of Mierin. Rand's attitude towards her is distinctly different from what we saw previously... but why? Everyone found it so strange that Rand seemed to view her with, not disgust (EDIT: He felt hatred, concern, and desire... yet not disgust, which is the emotion you'd expect based on the stories), but fondness. Curious, that once his LTT memories have been fully integrated, Rand's opinion of Lanfear would be different...


EDIT: There's actually another question to ask - what were Lanfear's three gifts from the Eelfinn?

Weird Harold
12-12-2010, 07:34 AM
I agree - she places herself ahead of everything else. But this is what distinguishes her from the rest of the Forsaken; the rest of them fight and maneouvre for the position of Naeblis, but Lanfear doesn't seem to actually care about it.

Lanfear is an old-fashioned kind of girl -- her self-worth isn't measured by her having the top position, it is measured by possessing the person who does have the top position. That gives her the (reflected) prestige of Nae'blis without the responsibilities.

"Psycho Cheerleader" doesn't want to be the Quarterback, she want to date the quarterback -- as is her natural birthright.


In short, the whole... mythology... surrounding Lanfear just doesn't seem to mesh quite right. It wasn't enough on its own, though -

"History becomes Legend which becomes Myth before fading into the Mists of Time."

The Legend is that Lanfear led the search for a new source of power. I suspect the History was that Meirin was an actually a moderately talented researcher but Beidomon was the Head of the project and Meirin was less important to the research than her Legend claims.

Being the lead reseercher doesn't fit with the Psycho Cheerleader stereotype; inflating her importance after Beidomon and the others conveniently commited suicide and couldn't refute her claims, does fit the Psycho Cheerleader stereotype.

what it took to make me question it is our most recent view of Mierin. Rand's attitude towards her is distinctly different from what we saw previously... but why?...

Rand Sedai saw Meirin, NOT Lanfear or Cyndane. "Meirin" is the person he felt some affection for before her Psycho Cheerleader personality drove him off. Lanfear is the persona/personality associated with affection turned to hate, and Cyndane is unknown to him.

EDIT: There's actually another question to ask - what were Lanfear's three gifts from the Eelfinn?

Now that is a question for a whole new thread. The short answer is that she probably didn't get to keep them when she died.

alleluia_cone
12-12-2010, 02:26 PM
I'm not in a position to dig up the quote right now but Jordan basically foreclosed the possibility of Lanfear being "good" in every sense of the word in response to such speculation before. She's just out for herself (and, at times, for Rand/Lews Therin)--that's it. She's not loyal to the Dark One or the Light or anybody else for that matter. And she's only a double agent in the sense that she was never working for anyone but herself, so any shows of loyalty on her part to anybody else was just for show.

alleluia_cone
12-12-2010, 02:27 PM
Now that is a question for a whole new thread. The short answer is that she probably didn't get to keep them when she died.

I'm really hoping that's not true. Already there have been wonderful avenues of speculation shut down in a wholly unsatisfactory manner (i.e, Carlinya, Nicola, etc.).

Weird Harold
12-12-2010, 05:43 PM
The short answer is that she probably didn't get to keep them when she died.

Already there have been wonderful avenues of speculation shut down in a wholly unsatisfactory manner.

I find that a wonderfully satisfactory answer. :D

Glen
12-13-2010, 12:36 AM
Lanfear is an old-fashioned kind of girl -- her self-worth isn't measured by her having the top position, it is measured by possessing the person who does have the top position. That gives her the (reflected) prestige of Nae'blis without the responsibilities.

"Psycho Cheerleader" doesn't want to be the Quarterback, she want to date the quarterback -- as is her natural birthright.
She doesn't seem to have spent any time trying to cosy up to Moridin, though.

It also doesn't explain her shift in attitude towards Rand upon becoming Cyndane. You can argue that it's because she's crazy, or whatever, but it doesn't fit the "Psycho Cheerleader" MO, because she doesn't get any prestige from it. As Cyndane, she seems to have cold fury, where as Lanfear she had hot passionate (jealous) fury.

"History becomes Legend which becomes Myth before fading into the Mists of Time."

The Legend is that Lanfear led the search for a new source of power. I suspect the History was that Meirin was an actually a moderately talented researcher but Beidomon was the Head of the project and Meirin was less important to the research than her Legend claims.

Being the lead reseercher doesn't fit with the Psycho Cheerleader stereotype; inflating her importance after Beidomon and the others conveniently commited suicide and couldn't refute her claims, does fit the Psycho Cheerleader stereotype.
Rand experienced the life of Charn, a Da'shain Aiel in service to Mierin Sedai, when passing through the glass pillars. From what I can tell, it seems to be consistent with the legend.

Lanfear had a lot of things attributed to her... but unlike the other forsaken, hers were things that could very well have been nothing more than attribution (that is, she didn't actually do it, she just let people think she did) - when people had disturbing dreams (and one would, during the War of Power), they blamed them on Lanfear. This is distinct from, say, Sammael, who left the Gates of Hevan open and led the Shadow into Satelle. The other forsaken all had confirmable acts, things that were undoubtedly their work. Lanfear had nightmares and deaths-in-the-night?

If I had to make a judgment on which of the two legends (her role in creating the bore and her exploits for the Shadow) became a myth, I'd have to say that a vague list of alleged exploits would be far more likely to be exaggerated, especially with Ishamael running around seeding stories to increase fear of the Forsaken.

Rand Sedai saw Meirin, NOT Lanfear or Cyndane. "Meirin" is the person he felt some affection for before her Psycho Cheerleader personality drove him off. Lanfear is the persona/personality associated with affection turned to hate, and Cyndane is unknown to him.
Mierin's behaviour prior to the bore was that of jealousy. It was prior to the bore that she had made multiple attempts to woo LTT away from Ilyena, and LTT had to rebuff her multiple times.

Now that is a question for a whole new thread. The short answer is that she probably didn't get to keep them when she died.
Perhaps... or perhaps there's more to it than meets the eye. The point is, if she did get some gifts from the Eelfinn, and she did get to keep them, then this could potentially play into the story. In the context of this discussion, what if she got something that will be of use to Rand?

FelixPax
12-13-2010, 02:08 AM
Lanfear's loyalty has been, ever and always, only to Lanfear -- at least in Lanfear's mind; the DO and Moridin apparently disagree.

If that claim above was TRUE, Lanfear/Mierin would have physically kidnapped Rand al'Thor from the Stone and directly taken him to be turned to the Shadow.

No, Mierin ultimately desires above anything else "love", not "power". Though "strength in power" in the form of independence is a desire of hers as well. The only soul Mierin has kneeled to truly follow is the Dragon Reborn, with Hurin and Loial present to witness this action (TGH book). Mierin lied to the Dark One, she's ultimately loyal to the Dragon, and no one else. Why? For his love, his attention.

Why did Mierin attack Rand al'Thor on the Cairhien docks, because she felt betrayed, her heart was broken, and Rand stated he would NEVER love her. Mierin almost killed Rand, Egwene, and Aviendha because her heart was broken. What was it? Vengeance. Spitefulness. Retribution. Ruthlessness. Malevolence.


Mierin loyalty even during the days of the War against the Shadow, was ultimately I'd predict with Lews Therin, the Dragon. Why? Because they had a secret plan together:

Lanfear stared at Rand, too. For the first time ever that he had seen, she looked uncertain. “How much do you remember, Lews Therin? How much is you, and how much the shepherd? This is the sort of plan you might have devised when we—” Drawing a deep breath, she turned her head to Asmodean.

The Shadow Rising, Chapter 58 "The Traps of Rhuidean" -- Rand point of view; with Mierin, Asmodean.

Mierin spied on the Shadow, who ultimately worked with the Dragon--that's my claim. That's why Mierin askes above "How much do you remember?"

Asmodean presents at Rhuidean, is the main reason she cannot complete this sentence: "This is the sort of plan you might have devised when we--".

Mierin cannot let anyone but Rand al'Thor know for sure where she stands. To speak of their arrangement with anyone else around to listen, would place Mierin in grave danger with the other Forsaken & the Dark One. Asmodean is untrustworthy, Mierin later claims to Rand.

How did Mierin protect the Da'Shain Aiel during the War of Shadow, perhaps by giving advance information to Lews Therin.

Weird Harold
12-13-2010, 07:56 AM
She doesn't seem to have spent any time trying to cosy up to Moridin, though.

Moridin isn't the "Quarterback" he's a tool to make the Quarterback jealous or get even with the Quarterback.

It also doesn't explain her shift in attitude towards Rand upon becoming Cyndane. You can argue that it's because she's crazy, or whatever, but it doesn't fit the "Psycho Cheerleader" MO, because she doesn't get any prestige from it. As Cyndane, she seems to have cold fury, where as Lanfear she had hot passionate (jealous) fury.

Cyndane is mind-trapped -- she has no soul to be passionate with; or at least does not have control of her own soul. Her behavior is closely controlled by the mind-trap, so she she isn't allowed to indulge her Psycho Cheerleader nature.

One could also argue that dying and being transmigrated cured -- or at least tempered -- the Psycho Cheerleader. It is the ultimate "Can't" that even the most psycho of psycho cheerleaders has to acknowledge really does apply to her. :D

Like any good Epic Fantasy, characters evolve; RJ's characters evolve more realistically than most. Moridin is noticeably less bat**** crazy than Ba'alzamon was, for example.

Glen
12-13-2010, 11:04 AM
Mierin loyalty even during the days of the War against the Shadow, was ultimately I'd predict with Lews Therin, the Dragon. Why? Because they had a secret plan together:



Mierin spied on the Shadow, who ultimately worked with the Dragon--that's my claim. That's why Mierin askes above "How much do you remember?"

Asmodean presents at Rhuidean, is the main reason she cannot complete this sentence: "This is the sort of plan you might have devised when we--".

Mierin cannot let anyone but Rand al'Thor know for sure where she stands. To speak of their arrangement with anyone else around to listen, would place Mierin in grave danger with the other Forsaken & the Dark One. Asmodean is untrustworthy, Mierin later claims to Rand.

How did Mierin protect the Da'Shain Aiel during the War of Shadow, perhaps by giving advance information to Lews Therin.
Wow, Felix. Generally, in the short time I've been here, your posts have been rather out-there and strange... but here, you caught an interesting point.

I'd been speculating to myself that maybe Lanfear would have planned her "defection" with LTT in the first place, and that LTT in Rand's head was insane, and thus incapable of remembering this fact... but I couldn't see how it was consistent, until now that you've provided that quote.

And it has led me to another one, that may be relevant, where Rand is just telling Lanfear about how he cut Asmodean's tie to the Dark One:


"I cut him off from the Dark One, Lanfear. I cut him off!"

Her eyes widened in shock, staring from him to Asmodean. The man had begun to weep. 'I did not think that was possible. Why? Do you think to bring him to the Light? You've changed nothing about him."
(bold mine, italics from text EDIT: underline was italicised in text; whole quote is italicised by quote tags)

Odd choice of words for Lanfear... "bring" him to the Light?

But wait, there's more. Lanfear has just been provoked by Asmodean, and is preparing to kill him. Rand intervenes with something that sounds similar to balefire, but not quite the same. Lanfear turns on Rand in anger... then quashes that anger and says

"No, I mustn't kill him. Not after we have gone to so much effort."

What effort is she talking about? All she has done to this point to Asmodean is give him a nice nearly-shield. That's not exactly much effort. However, if Lanfear is talking about her effort at ensuring that the Light wins, it makes sense - she needs Rand to be taught how to channel, in order to make sure that all their effort hasn't been for nothing.

And more:
"I remember when you were too softhearted to use anyone. Devious in battle, hard as a stone and arrogant as the mountains, but open and softhearted as any girl! No, I did not harm any of your precious Aes Sedai, or your previous Aiel. I do not kill without cause, Lews Therin. I do not even hurt without cause."

Curious, that a Forsaken would not kill or hurt without cause.

Lanfear is unique in so many ways. She's the only one who chose her own name. She seems to be willing to help the good guys, where the others would only do so under duress (for instance, Moghedien). She revealed her "defection" to the Shadow through a simple announcement, where the others invariably did it through evil deeds. She doesn't even kill or hurt people unless she has good reason to do so, where the others seem quite happy to do all sorts of things just because they can.

Most notably, though, she is driven by love. A twisted kind of love, yes, but love nonetheless. It is the jealousy of love that drove her to attack Rand at the end of tFoH. Indeed, her only "evil" actions have been the result of rampant love... not an emotion one associates with the Forsaken. This is an unrequited love that has had over three thousand years to fester... but it is noteworthy that her love never actually transferred to another person of power.


And now, I give you one more interesting observation. Lanfear means "Daughter of the Night", right? And her pseudonym is "Selene", which refers to a goddess of the moon. Wolves call her Moonhunter. Many think Sylvie was Lanfear, and Sylvia was the roman goddess of the forest and the moon. This is important.

Why? What is the moon? A bright source of Light in the Darkness, of course. I think RJ has hidden Lanfear's true allegiance (other than to herself, I mean) in plain sight, here. Yes, the moon is reflecting light from the sun... but it does so from a dark sky; in the Light, it appears dark; only when in the dark does its brilliant luminescence show itself.

RJ has made it quite clear that Lanfear is connected with the Moon. I also think it's worth noting the phases of the moon - over time, it darkens and brightens. Much like Lanfear's moods. But the only time it goes "dark" is when it is near the sun... kind of like how she went berserk when near Aviendha and Rand in the afterglow of... well, you know. :p


Weird Harold: Moridin is the quarterback for the Shadow. Either Lanfear's "Psycho Cheerleader" role is only for the quarterback for the Light, Rand, in which case it's consistent with my theory, or she just wants to be with a quarterback, in which case Moridin should be just as much a target, now that he's the current Naeblis.

Weird Harold
12-13-2010, 05:05 PM
What effort is she talking about? All she has done to this point to Asmodean is give him a nice nearly-shield. That's not exactly much effort.

At that point in the story, Lanfear was in an alliance with Sammael, Rahvin, and Greandal -- those are the "we" that expended the "effort" to lead Rand into a trap. I've never been sure whether forcing Asmodean to teach Rand was part of that plan or a betrayal of that plan; the whole plan didn't make much sense to me. :D

Most notably, though, she is driven by love. A twisted kind of love, yes, but love nonetheless.

Lanfear thinks of it as Love, but it is not any sort of affection or romance. Lanfear's "love" of LTT bears more relation to Scrooge McDuck's 'love' of money than any normal person would think of as 'love' -- it is not a twisted sort of Love, it is an obsession blown all out of proportion.

Why? What is the moon? A bright source of Light in the Darkness, of course. I think RJ has hidden Lanfear's true allegiance (other than to herself, I mean) in plain sight, here. Yes, the moon is reflecting light from the sun... but it does so from a dark sky; in the Light, it appears dark; only when in the dark does its brilliant luminescence show itself.

This is a very interesting analysis. It's not actually incompatible with Psycho Cheerleader, either. I'd be very surprised if LTT or anyone outside of Lanfear's fantasies knew anything about her "secret mission" but I can see her believing she's on a secret mission.

Weird Harold: Moridin is the quarterback for the Shadow. Either Lanfear's "Psycho Cheerleader" role is only for the quarterback for the Light, Rand, in which case it's consistent with my theory, or she just wants to be with a quarterback, in which case Moridin should be just as much a target, now that he's the current Naeblis.

Lanfear as Psycho Cheerleader is fixated on LTT. No other quarterback will do and if she can't have him, he will suffer and anyone who tries to take him will regret it. It's not about 'Love' it's about "MINE!"

looqas
12-14-2010, 04:19 AM
And now, I give you one more interesting observation. Lanfear means "Daughter of the Night", right? And her pseudonym is "Selene", which refers to a goddess of the moon. Wolves call her Moonhunter. Many think Sylvie was Lanfear, and Sylvia was the roman goddess of the forest and the moon. This is important.

Why? What is the moon? A bright source of Light in the Darkness, of course. I think RJ has hidden Lanfear's true allegiance (other than to herself, I mean) in plain sight, here. Yes, the moon is reflecting light from the sun... but it does so from a dark sky; in the Light, it appears dark; only when in the dark does its brilliant luminescence show itself.

RJ has made it quite clear that Lanfear is connected with the Moon. I also think it's worth noting the phases of the moon - over time, it darkens and brightens. Much like Lanfear's moods. But the only time it goes "dark" is when it is near the sun... kind of like how she went berserk when near Aviendha and Rand in the afterglow of... well, you know. :p



This is the most interesting thing I've read in this board for weeks. I would rep you if I could.

And I agree with almost everyone here. Lanfear is just really interesting character together with Moridin and LTT/Rand. Sometimes I feel like they were siblings.

Ancalagon
12-14-2010, 06:47 AM
The wishes?

Lanfear: I wish any woman who loves Rand were to die in a fire.
Moraine: I wish for a powerful angreal
Lanfear: I wish Rand were to love me and only me.
Moraine: I wish for a rescue party consisting of Thom, Mat and Noal.
Lanfear: I wish to be rescued by Rand.
Moraine: I wish Lanfear were gay.

As the old joke goes.

Anyway, I do think Lanfear is being sincere when she appears to Rand. He might try to rescue her, but there just isnt much time in the last book. Perhaps he will grant her the mercy of death instead. JesusRand seems to know exactly what he has to do, so I'm not sure he even needs her help.

Glen
12-14-2010, 07:55 AM
JesusRand seems to know exactly what he has to do, so I'm not sure he even needs her help.

This actually makes me think of another possible topic of discussion: most of the major threads of the story are in some way inspired by one myth/story or another. One of the few Rand-based inspirations that doesn't have an explicit Lanfear connection is Rand as Jesus.

Could Lanfear actually have a connection to the story of Jesus? Could she be Mary Magdaleine? After all, she is widely believed to have been a sinful prostitute, when in canon she was merely a woman cleansed of "seven demons" by Jesus. Mary Magdalene's name is more accurately Maria, the latin form of the greek name Mariam...

Mierin.

I think you see where I'm going, here. Mary was present at the crucifixion, the burial, and the discovery of the empty tomb. Mary is also often considered to have been a companion, or even a wife, to Jesus. Mierin fits a similar description with LTT.

Perhaps Mierin's appearance within Rand's dream is to be part of his "cleansing" of her. She is currently being tormented by the Shadow in some way (the details are unclear), and Rand is going to "cleanse" her, after which she will become one of his most devoted followers, perhaps.

If this speculation is accurate, we can expect Lanfear to be redeemed/cleansed before the bore is sealed, and be present at the sealing, and Rand's death. She could perhaps even be the one to resurrect him.

Also interesting is that, according to some versions, another Mary was present at the discovery of the empty tomb: Mary of Clopas. This Mary is varyingly considered to be sister to Virgin Mary, cousin to Virgin Mary, or sister-in-law to Virgin Mary, sister to Jesus's stepfather, Joseph.

Who would this Mary be? Well, Rand's mother was Tigraine, and she was married to Taringail Damodred, as I recall. And who is another Damodred that we know? His half-sister, Moiraine, of course. Indeed, "Moiraine" could also be seen to bear a striking resemblance to the name "Mary" or "Mariam". The reason I bring this up is that this would be the second commonality between these two women, after their experience with the Eelfinn.

There's more speculation around this possible connection, such as other possible ladies who might be present at that event, and the angel "man in white" who is present at the time (Galad?). But that's for discussion elsewhere. I just mentioned the Moiraine = Mary of Clopas possibility as supporting evidence for Mierin as Mary Magdalene.