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Terez
11-16-2010, 05:28 PM
...if, after turning everyone inside the Black Tower to the Shadow (that timeline is behind the others - ha!), Taim waits for everyone to get to Merrilor, then he plops the dreamspike in their midst, getting Moghedien and Cyndane to guard it, and then surrounds the place with his evil army of Asha'man and Aes Sedai? Rolling ring of Earth and Fire, baby!

WinespringBrother
11-16-2010, 05:31 PM
...if, after turning everyone inside the Black Tower to the Shadow (that timeline is behind the others - ha!), Taim waits for everyone to get to Merrilor, then he plops the dreamspike in their midst, getting Moghedien and Cyndane to guard it, and then surrounds the place with his evil army of Asha'man and Aes Sedai? Rolling ring of Earth and Fire, baby!

It would be even funnier if they all saw Rand and went blind and stilled :P

Rand al'Fain
11-16-2010, 05:31 PM
No, as that would be pretty anti-climatic and a huge dissapointment for me.

alleluia_cone
11-16-2010, 05:33 PM
...if, after turning everyone inside the Black Tower to the Shadow (that timeline is behind the others - ha!), Taim waits for everyone to get to Merrilor, then he plops the dreamspike in their midst, getting Moghedien and Cyndane to guard it, and then surrounds the place with his evil army of Asha'man and Aes Sedai? Rolling ring of Earth and Fire, baby!

I've considered this possibility but you have to factor in that the Shadow will never do anything reasonable. Graendal won't simply open a gateway and balefire Perrin; she'll orchestrate an elaborate scheme involving multiple armies attacking each other, multiple people she has no control over acting precisely as she thinks they will, and one lone soldier, with no special abilities, managing to kill a ta'veren, assuming he will be completely unguarded and unaware.

tiredofbuttons
11-16-2010, 05:35 PM
I've considered this possibility but you have to factor in that the Shadow will never do anything reasonable. Graendal won't simply open a gateway and balefire Perrin; she'll orchestrate an elaborate scheme involving multiple armies attacking each other, multiple people she has no control over acting precisely as she thinks they will, and one lone soldier, with no special abilities, managing to kill a ta'veren, assuming he will be completely unguarded and unaware.

If she attempted to gate in and balefire him a bird would choose that time to fly by and accidentally plant its beak in her eye or something ridiculous. He's ta'veren.

Why in gods name would a great manipulator who is terrified of death put herself in harms way? He is also known to have many AS and ashaman around him. DUH!

Terez
11-16-2010, 05:37 PM
It would be even funnier if they all saw Rand and went blind and stilled :P
In reply to that...
No, as that would be pretty anti-climatic and a huge dissapointment for me.
What he said. And in reply to that...

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k320/jalapenoguy/SeriousBusiness.png

alleluia_cone
11-16-2010, 05:39 PM
If she attempted to gate in and balefire him a bird would choose that time to fly by and accidentally plant its beak in her eye or something ridiculous. He's ta'veren.

Why in gods name would a great manipulator who is terrified of death put herself in harms way? He is also known to have many AS and ashaman around him. DUH!

Your logic is faulty because it dictates someone would kill Byar just as he is about to plunge his sword into Perrin, and that his very ta'veren nature will dictate this, even if the person to step in and save Perrin is Byar's very best friend and . . . hey, wait a minute . . .

Taking your view, Graendel should have just given up to start with.

WinespringBrother
11-16-2010, 05:45 PM
Your logic is faulty because it dictates someone would kill Byar just as he is about to plunge his sword into Perrin, and that his very ta'veren nature will dictate this, even if the person to step in and save Perrin is Byar's very best friend and . . . hey, wait a minute . . .

Taking your view, Graendel should have just given up to start with.

And Demandred is sitting it out, waiting for everyone else to fail first. Shaidar Haran only has so much energy...

morat'corlm
11-16-2010, 05:46 PM
If the Asha'man appeared at Merrilor, Elayne could just go out in disguise and tell Taim that "let the Lord of Chaos rule" is back in effect, and to go back to his room.

alleluia_cone
11-16-2010, 05:47 PM
And Demandred is sitting it out, waiting for everyone else to fail first. Shaidar Haran only has so much energy...

I swear, if Demandred wasn't ruined before, he is now. Terez has given me mental images that won't go away and I fear that whenever he appears in the next book, no matter how menacing, it just won't work.

torquemada
11-16-2010, 06:06 PM
...if, after turning everyone inside the Black Tower to the Shadow (that timeline is behind the others - ha!), Taim waits for everyone to get to Merrilor, then he plops the dreamspike in their midst, getting Moghedien and Cyndane to guard it, and then surrounds the place with his evil army of Asha'man and Aes Sedai? Rolling ring of Earth and Fire, baby!

That would not be funny, not at all. It would be Fabulous!:) While the light side may be the biggest collection of nit wits and nincompoops this side of Mordor the dark side isn't much smarter. I doubt they have the smarts to pull this off.

On a related note Terez may I say that your evilness manifests itself in the most delightful ways.

Terez
11-16-2010, 06:10 PM
On a related note Terez may I say that your evilness manifests itself in the most delightful ways.
Why thank you. :D

dpt24
11-16-2010, 06:10 PM
It seems like when Rand channels a lot it drives darkfriends crazy, but that could be a problem at the Black tower, since a bunch of crazy men who can channel would not be a good thing. Also, I do think it's a little crazy that the Black Tower hasn't (apparently) been fixed before Rand goes to the Field...

morat'corlm
11-16-2010, 06:24 PM
It seems like when Rand channels a lot it drives darkfriends crazy, but that could be a problem at the Black tower, since a bunch of crazy men who can channel would not be a good thing.But it doesn't drive them crazy. It causes enough pain that they become suicidal. There's a big difference.

arioch
11-16-2010, 06:46 PM
But it doesn't drive them crazy. It causes enough pain that they become suicidal. There's a big difference.

A thousand more Dragonmounts?

Uno
11-16-2010, 06:55 PM
It would be pretty funny, but as soon as they're all turned, the Asha'man will not be able to carry out such a simple task, as all the badies in Randland are infected with incurable incompetence. There's something about being a minion that ruins people's brains, I gather.

dpt24
11-16-2010, 08:47 PM
Yeah... suicidal channelers could be just as bad...

Belazamon
11-16-2010, 09:20 PM
A thousand more Dragonmounts?
The Spine of the Dragon, perhaps?

arioch
11-16-2010, 09:21 PM
The Spine of the Dragon, perhaps?

There's already a Spine of the Dragon, so I'm going to go with Dragontail.

Belazamon
11-16-2010, 09:31 PM
There's already a Spine of the Dragon, so I'm going to go with Dragontail.
I believe you're thinking of the Spine of the World.

Of course, the land is one with the Dragon, so those are actually the same thing... so maybe you're right.

arioch
11-16-2010, 09:41 PM
I believe you're thinking of the Spine of the World.

Of course, the land is one with the Dragon, so those are actually the same thing... so maybe you're right.

Dragonwall, Spine of the World.

Amusingly, there's also a Fingers of the Dragon.

Belazamon
11-16-2010, 09:45 PM
Dragonwall, Spine of the World.

Amusingly, there's also a Fingers of the Dragon.
Man, the Dragon really did leave a lot of body parts lying around, didn't he?

I guess we're lucky that Dragonmount got an innocuous name. Well, relatively.

WinespringBrother
11-16-2010, 10:42 PM
You left out his weapon, Kinslayer's Dagger ;)

finn
11-16-2010, 10:48 PM
Your logic is faulty because it dictates someone would kill Byar just as he is about to plunge his sword into Perrin, and that his very ta'veren nature will dictate this, even if the person to step in and save Perrin is Byar's very best friend and . . . hey, wait a minute . . .

Taking your view, Graendel should have just given up to start with.
Bornhald believed that Perrin wasn't his father's killer. The resulting doubts about Perrin, guilt about Bornhald's own past actions and the fact that Perrin had saved them all was enough to compel Bornhald for a moment to instinctively prevent a cowardly assault by an officer under his command. He didn't think about what he was doing but there was a probability, however small, that he could act the way he did under those circumstances and so he did.

Graendal might have succeeded had she seeded the pattern with more chaos, thus obfuscating the chances that Perrin would survive. And chosen a tool(if indeed Byar was her tool) that doesn't scream out right before plunging the sword in.

alleluia_cone
11-16-2010, 10:59 PM
Bornhald believed that Perrin wasn't his father's killer. The resulting doubts about Perrin, guilt about Bornhald's own past actions and the fact that Perrin had saved them all was enough to compel Bornhald for a moment to instinctively prevent a cowardly assault by an officer under his command. He didn't think about what he was doing but there was a probability, however small, that he could act the way he did under those circumstances and so he did.

Graendal might have succeeded had she seeded the pattern with more chaos, thus obfuscating the chances that Perrin would survive. And chosen a tool(if indeed Byar was her tool) that doesn't scream out right before plunging the sword in.

Doesn't balefire, which actually burns through the pattern, work better than simply "obfuscating" the pattern with chaos?

Servus Christi
11-16-2010, 11:00 PM
Well, the Dreamspike hardly stops channelling. So, Taim and his Dreadlords show up. Rand spanks them. Everyone goes home.

jana
11-16-2010, 11:11 PM
"obfuscating"
:D

Caveatar
11-16-2010, 11:13 PM
You left out his weapon, Kinslayer's Dagger ;)

Interesting.
I don't suppose the Manga 'Dragonball Z' originated from an ancient memory of the Dragon did it? :D

morat'corlm
11-16-2010, 11:18 PM
Bornhald believed that Perrin wasn't his father's killer. The resulting doubts about Perrin, guilt about Bornhald's own past actionsNo kidding. I wonder what would happen if Perrin were to find out Bornhald covered up Fain's mass murder (and what else?) of his entire family. And then
“I betrayed no one,” Perrin said in a loud voice so everyone could hear. “If your father died at Falme, those who killed him are called the Seanchan. I don’t know whether they are Darkfriends, but I do know they use the One Power in battle.”

“Liar!” Spittle flew from Bornhald’s lips. “The Seanchan are a tale concocted by the White Tower to hide their foul lies! You are a Darkfriend!”
Oops.

Jonai
11-17-2010, 12:07 AM
Oh I don't know, if Rand was smart enough to bring Callandor, he can just do rolling ring of blossoms of fire. Then beat Taim down with his stump.

GonzoTheGreat
11-17-2010, 04:27 AM
Moridin could use the TP to pick up the Guardians from Far Madding, and drop those at the Field of Mellilor. Then send Trollocs into the area, and put Dreadlords around it to kill anyone who tries to get out.

jana
11-17-2010, 04:30 AM
Moridin could use the TP to pick up the Guardians from Far Madding, and drop those at the Field of Mellilor. Then send Trollocs into the area, and put Dreadlords around it to kill anyone who tries to get out.


Quit thinking of ideas that are way too smart for the Forsaken or anyone else on the bad side to ever think of.

GonzoTheGreat
11-17-2010, 05:00 AM
Quit thinking of ideas that are way too smart for the Forsaken or anyone else on the bad side to ever think of.I think that calling them the "bad side" is too prejudiced. We should use "differently colored side" from now on.

Daekyras
11-17-2010, 07:06 AM
I think that calling them the "bad side" is too prejudiced. We should use "differently colored side" from now on.

Interesting, i see no mention of colour....or color, for our american friends.

WinespringBrother
11-17-2010, 07:59 AM
Interesting, i see no mention of colour....or color, for our american friends.

We can always call them the Light-Impaired :D

Casabamelon
11-17-2010, 09:27 AM
Interesting, i see no mention of colour....or color, for our american friends.

This American recommends treading lightly with the words "people" and "color".
________
Alaska dispensary (http://alaska.dispensaries.org/)

Daekyras
11-17-2010, 10:08 AM
This American recommends treading lightly with the words "people" and "color".

I know that's what I was pointing out to Gonzo....

DahLliA
11-17-2010, 10:09 AM
I think that calling them the "bad side" is too prejudiced. We should use "differently colored side" from now on.

morally-impaired side?

GonzoTheGreat
11-17-2010, 11:46 AM
morally-impaired side?I don't think that it is fair to accuse them of having morals. Besides, if you use that criterion, how do you tell which side is which?

yasiru89
11-27-2010, 10:25 AM
Rand goes, 'Quick! Everyone use Egwene's utterly-inept-at-battle Aes Sedai as a human shield while we sing Perrin to sleep!'- problem solved.
Perrin's wolf dream prowess against the two 'we own this place' AoL figures should be interesting.

And Rand could just weave that shield he used once that was able to stop anything short of balefire in strategic positions (in a non-enclosing sort of way- and allow his own Asha'man to see the weave) since it's unlikely Taim's minions and the Shadow-turned lot know to use balefire.

Hmm... I wonder if you can enter Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh with a Dreamspike active. It's like Travelling, but not quite, so perhaps you can- this will make Perrin even more powerful if Rand opens the way for him. And since we're talking about extreme possibilities here, why not have Elayne give Perrin a spare foxhead, so now he doesn't even need to think to worry about weaves at all and can concentrate purely on the Dream.

About Graendal trying to balefire Perrin, I don't think her nature allows her to disguise herself, invert weaves and hide her ability, then stride into camp and wait for a chance to get at Perrin alone. For one thing, he's always surrounded by Asha'man and Aes Sedai/Wise Ones so that a clean getaway (even by gateway, forgive the pun) is unlikely (even balefiring from a distance, and since ta'veren effects, as we've seen with Rand seem almost based on quantum uncertainty like principles, the less sure she is that he's at a particular place, the more freedom for him to have slipped out to the privy the back way or something if she tried to balefire his tent for instance) even if she manages the deed (and it's not like she'll run the risk of sacrificing herself for it).

Caveatar
11-27-2010, 10:43 AM
For one thing, he's always surrounded by Asha'man and Aes Sedai/Wise Ones

"so that a clean getaway (even by gateway, forgive the pun)" .

Would that be a "Gateaway"? :)

yasiru89
11-27-2010, 11:01 AM
I suppose it should have been. :o

Oh, and for Moridin dropping off Guardians- if Rand still has access to the True Power (which I suspect he does, despite not using it) there'd be no issue. And of course, there's the possibility that Moridin accidentally drops the thing on Taim and his Asha'man because the Pattern bends around Rand... :D

Seeker
11-27-2010, 09:23 PM
I've considered this possibility but you have to factor in that the Shadow will never do anything reasonable. Graendal won't simply open a gateway and balefire Perrin; she'll orchestrate an elaborate scheme involving multiple armies attacking each other, multiple people she has no control over acting precisely as she thinks they will, and one lone soldier, with no special abilities, managing to kill a ta'veren, assuming he will be completely unguarded and unaware.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Laconic/IdiotPlot

subwoofer
11-27-2010, 10:56 PM
...if, after turning everyone inside the Black Tower to the Shadow (that timeline is behind the others - ha!), Taim waits for everyone to get to Merrilor, then he plops the dreamspike in their midst, getting Moghedien and Cyndane to guard it, and then surrounds the place with his evil army of Asha'man and Aes Sedai? Rolling ring of Earth and Fire, baby!

Just don't see it happening.

Couple of flaws.

-First off, it smacks of teamwork. The forsaken are not renowned for that. Moggy, Cy working with Taim? For Taim? Heh.

-Second, that plan revolves around Team Light doing nuthin' while all this unfolds.

- Third, Perrin. Wolf Dream Badass himself. Think Moggy and Cy would stand a chance? Make it interesting, put Faile as a hostage (actually, I could see that happen somehow) and watch Perrin go bugnuts.

- Forth, we are making a leap that Taim is left to his own devices and everything goes his way. I think Taim's plans for his bad guy Tower flying is gonna be squashed soon.

- Fifth, big deal that a ring of baddies appear. Is it the general consensus that Team light are gonna sit and take it and are not going to defend themselves?

- Sixth- like pioneers of old that pull their wagons in a circle, it is a very defensible position. And with the Dreamspike that means that baddies cannot Travel in and wreak havoc in their midst.

- Okay, that was more than a couple, but anyways, the point is, it is not the end of the world if it does happen.

Terez
11-27-2010, 11:19 PM
Just don't see it happening.
No one ever said it was probable. :rolleyes:

dominominic
11-28-2010, 02:02 AM
Just don't see it happening.

Couple of flaws.

-First off, it smacks of teamwork. The forsaken are not renowned for that. Moggy, Cy working with Taim? For Taim? Heh.

They'll do what Moridin tells them.

-Second, that plan revolves around Team Light doing nuthin' while all this unfolds.

- Third, Perrin. Wolf Dream Badass himself. Think Moggy and Cy would stand a chance? Make it interesting, put Faile as a hostage (actually, I could see that happen somehow) and watch Perrin go bugnuts.

Moggy may still have some TAR tricks up her sleeve!

- Forth, we are making a leap that Taim is left to his own devices and everything goes his way. I think Taim's plans for his bad guy Tower flying is gonna be squashed soon.

- Fifth, big deal that a ring of baddies appear. Is it the general consensus that Team light are gonna sit and take it and are not going to defend themselves?

- Sixth- like pioneers of old that pull their wagons in a circle, it is a very defensible position. And with the Dreamspike that means that baddies cannot Travel in and wreak havoc in their midst.

Unless they have the key.

- Okay, that was more than a couple, but anyways, the point is, it is not the end of the world if it does happen.

My edit.

subwoofer
11-28-2010, 09:16 AM
My edit.

Dang it, I hit the quote button and that was all I got. Too lazy to do cut and paste...

Ahem:

-Fine, let them do what Moridin tells them. Team Dark will still bungle. First there will be an argument over who is in charge, then everybody will first prepare a cover story why they didn't succeed. Then the backstabbing will begin. Team Dark have finely honed skills at the blame game. They started that before the Great Game.

-Moggy is a know T'AR hussy. She doesn't usually wear sleeves;)

-Gee, well if there was a key, Mesaana shoulda stumbled onto it in the Tower as there was some serious damage done to Team Dark in that kerfuffle. See previous statement about Team Dark and bungling. Now Egwene might actually have a change to get the Tower going in the right direction.

-And Team Dark vs. the combined pull of Rand and Perrin's ta'vereness in the same area? Those be tall odds. I think I'd rather be the cannon fodder attacking Caemlyn.

The Immortal One
11-28-2010, 10:01 AM
I doubt any of the Forsaken are as good at TAR as Perrin. Moggy couldn't dream away Nynaeve's a'dam, and Egwene broke Mesaana's mind in the same sort of way.

But even Egwene - who thinks she is one of the best in the Dream and who is almost certainly stronger in the Dream than Nynaeve - is shocked to see Perrin's skill in the Wolf Dream (I loved his off-hand comment that even Balefire is 'just another weave' and that he simply didn't allow it to exist).

Everyone except Perrin partly depends on the One Power or training and 'learning the rules', but Perrin has simply learned that 'there is no spoon'. (and even more so when his Ta'veren-ness causes the Pattern to bend around him)

I wonder, when you're in TAR in the flesh you have less control over the Dream but are much stronger - especially in the One Power. Would Perrin be able to stop someone channelling at him if they're in the flesh?

yasiru89
11-28-2010, 10:15 AM
Well, they could get Shaidar Haran to supervise- if anyone sets a foot out of line he threatens them with rape (Taim's reaction would be worth this entire scenario).

subwoofer
11-28-2010, 10:19 AM
I wonder, when you're in TAR in the flesh you have less control over the Dream but are much stronger - especially in the One Power. Would Perrin be able to stop someone channelling at him if they're in the flesh?

Short answer- yuppers.

Regardless of what, whomever is in T'AR in the flesh, is still in T'AR. So regardless of what, the rules governing T'AR still apply. And Perrin gets this. Hence the whole Hopper training bit where Perrin is shoved into a nightmare and does not let it overcome him and the repeated training (Hopper crashing into him) that what Perrin is, is. Know who you are in the dream, have that control, and the rest is Duck Soup.

dominominic
11-28-2010, 11:19 AM
Dang it, I hit the quote button and that was all I got. Too lazy to do cut and paste...

Ahem:

-Fine, let them do what Moridin tells them. Team Dark will still bungle. First there will be an argument over who is in charge, then everybody will first prepare a cover story why they didn't succeed. Then the backstabbing will begin. Team Dark have finely honed skills at the blame game. They started that before the Great Game.

They're not bungling; they're just unlucky. Repeatedly and predictably!

-Moggy is a know T'AR hussy. She doesn't usually wear sleeves;)

Down her bodice then?

-Gee, well if there was a key, Mesaana shoulda stumbled onto it in the Tower as there was some serious damage done to Team Dark in that kerfuffle. See previous statement about Team Dark and bungling. Now Egwene might actually have a change to get the Tower going in the right direction.

Moridin said he knew the key for the one that went to Tar Valon. So the other one probably has a key too.

-And Team Dark vs. the combined pull of Rand and Perrin's ta'vereness in the same area? Those be tall odds. I think I'd rather be the cannon fodder attacking Caemlyn.

My hard-to-quote edit. ;)

subwoofer
11-28-2010, 12:38 PM
My hard-to-quote edit. ;)
Originally Posted by subwoofer View Post
Dang it, I hit the quote button and that was all I got. Too lazy to do cut and paste...

Ahem:

-Fine, let them do what Moridin tells them. Team Dark will still bungle. First there will be an argument over who is in charge, then everybody will first prepare a cover story why they didn't succeed. Then the backstabbing will begin. Team Dark have finely honed skills at the blame game. They started that before the Great Game.

They're not bungling; they're just unlucky. Repeatedly and predictably!

-Isn't that the definition of bungling? repeated and predictable putzing up?

-Moggy is a know T'AR hussy. She doesn't usually wear sleeves

Down her bodice then?

That idea does have possibilities... but Nynaeve has dibs on whooping Moggy's ass. Or maybe just spanking it.


-Gee, well if there was a key, Mesaana shoulda stumbled onto it in the Tower as there was some serious damage done to Team Dark in that kerfuffle. See previous statement about Team Dark and bungling. Now Egwene might actually have a change to get the Tower going in the right direction.

Moridin said he knew the key for the one that went to Tar Valon. So the other one probably has a key too.
- If that was the case, why did he let the whole worm in the Tower thing collapse? Mesaana was doing fine at causing havoc with the ladies. Now all that effort was for not as Egwene at least has them pointed in the right direction, even if they are not ready.:confused::confused:

Y'know?