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View Full Version : Funny thing with Brigitte..


Servus Christi
11-17-2010, 01:12 AM
I understand why someone had to be there to help get over how the dragons were going to change the face of warfare, the face of the world.

But why Brigitte? She's seen worse surely? Her reaction to the dragons doesn't ring true to me.

"Elayne, these dragons will change the world."
"Yea.. didn't yuo like, watch entire cities burn to ashes when some dude pointed a little metal stick at the walls?"

Frenzy
11-17-2010, 01:25 AM
true, but now anyone can burn cities to ashes, not just the dudes with metal sticks.

Rand al'Fain
11-17-2010, 01:34 AM
I think it was more in response to Brigitte thinking ahead with this. Because with the dragons, aka cannons, walls and troop formations can be leveled rather quickly while out of range from arrows or crossbow bolts. And once it gets massed produced by other nations (it will in time), the death tolls will sky rocket. Brigitte has the memories from at least 3000 years (last we heard, she could remember to the foundation of the White Tower), and putting this kind of weaponry on such a scale will change the world. Not that hard to fathom.

Servus Christi
11-17-2010, 01:38 AM
I think it was more in response to Brigitte thinking ahead with this. Because with the dragons, aka cannons, walls and troop formations can be leveled rather quickly while out of range from arrows or crossbow bolts. And once it gets massed produced by other nations (it will in time), the death tolls will sky rocket. Brigitte has the memories from at least 3000 years (last we heard, she could remember to the foundation of the White Tower), and putting this kind of weaponry on such a scale will change the world. Not that hard to fathom.

No, I understand that reaction. I just don't understand it from her. It didn't come off as a simple statement from her, it came out as if it was a random soldier was the one realising war had changed.

Maybe I need to re-read.

Rand al'Fain
11-17-2010, 01:49 AM
No, I understand that reaction. I just don't understand it from her. It didn't come off as a simple statement from her, it came out as if it was a random soldier was the one realising war had changed.

Maybe I need to re-read.

With that invention though, it gives the regular soldier the means to destroy cities without having to worry about arrow fire or without having to be a channeler. The ability to destroy was just increased at an incredibly high level, to the point where even someone like Brigitte who has lived many lives and fought in countless battles and remembers many of them, to comment on the destructive force of it. Even the Forsaken were surprised by fireworks, as it looks like they did not have any during the AOL. So blackpowder weapons are incredibly new and delivers a whole new level of lethality and destruction that has not been seen in at least 2 Ages.

Cortar
11-17-2010, 03:05 AM
Dragons will change warfare, but not terribly much, I mean, we have two sides both with armies of people who can magically make create fire and lightning out of thin air, I would say cannons are kinda silly compared to what an army of Ash'aman or Damane could do.

morat'corlm
11-17-2010, 03:24 AM
That all depends on whether they're Dumai's Wells Asha'man or Battle of Maradon Asha'man.

Cannons don't get tired.

GonzoTheGreat
11-17-2010, 04:53 AM
Cannons don't get tired.They can overheat, though. And when they do, either you stop firing them, or they blow up in your face.

arioch
11-17-2010, 07:14 AM
They can overheat, though. And when they do, either you stop firing them, or they blow up in your face.

You can build another one faster than an Asha'man can recuperate. Or you know, just roll up another one.

dpt24
11-17-2010, 07:23 AM
With Dammne and Ash'aman, though, cannon's aren't quite as useful as they'd be otherwise. Still very deadly, but I'm not sure if they'll be as useful as Mat and Elayne thinks, especially as a counter to the Damne and Dreadlords, since I think channelers could use weaves of air to block them.

Terez
11-17-2010, 07:34 AM
Birgitte can't remember anything before around the Trolloc Wars or so. Last we heard it was around the founding of the White Tower, but I'm sure she's lost some more memories since then.

Casabamelon
11-17-2010, 09:22 AM
I don't get the resistance.

Channelers vary in raw strength and ability/skill/talent. Not every channeler can be used to knock down walls from a mile away, and not every (any) channeler can stop a dragon's egg they can't see coming.

On the other hand, every dragon can "blow sh1t up" every time, every one is the same, and every one can be used by anyone. Oh, and the quantity is limited only by the resources allocated to manufacturing. Channelers, on the other hand, have to be bred.
________
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Bayle
11-17-2010, 10:40 AM
What I don't get is why Birgitte or Elayne, with all the need for "secrecy" while developing the Dragons - why they didn't just gate out into the Waste to test them out, someplace remote where they could be built and tended.

For that matter, why have them on carts at all, just open up a gateway in front of your target, fire through the gateway... no need to move them... sigh, silly silly child-queen

Rand al'Fain
11-17-2010, 10:46 AM
What I don't get is why Birgitte or Elayne, with all the need for "secrecy" while developing the Dragons - why they didn't just gate out into the Waste to test them out, someplace remote where they could be built and tended.

For that matter, why have them on carts at all, just open up a gateway in front of your target, fire through the gateway... no need to move them... sigh, silly silly child-queen

A channeler won't always be present. Plus it would be rather hard to move the cannon, even through a portal, if it doesn't have wheels. The cart they're describing is basically just so that the recoil doesn't blast it upside down, and for it to be able to move. Simple really.

Landro
11-17-2010, 10:52 AM
A channeler won't always be present. Plus it would be rather hard to move the cannon, even through a portal, if it doesn't have wheels. The cart they're describing is basically just so that the recoil doesn't blast it upside down, and for it to be able to move. Simple really.

With a cannon behind a gateway you wouldn't have to move the cannon at all. You can use the gateway destination to aim it

Bayle
11-17-2010, 10:53 AM
Oh I understand that, the recoil dampening mechanism of a cannon, and sure to move them initially you would need wheels- I just mean shooting them through gateways would be pretty destructive and seems like a great plan, in my opinion.

Possibly narrative breaking, however :)

Bayle
11-17-2010, 10:54 AM
With a cannon behind a gateway you wouldn't have to move the cannon at all. You can use the gateway destination to aim it

Exactly my point ;)

WinespringBrother
11-17-2010, 11:01 AM
What I don't get is why Birgitte or Elayne, with all the need for "secrecy" while developing the Dragons - why they didn't just gate out into the Waste to test them out, someplace remote where they could be built and tended.

For that matter, why have them on carts at all, just open up a gateway in front of your target, fire through the gateway... no need to move them... sigh, silly silly child-queen

The selling point of cannons is surprise attacks on targets from far off. Opening a gateway to the attackees gives then a reverse route for a counter attack.

ChristmasMarine
11-17-2010, 11:18 AM
I may be reading into this too much, or flat out wrong, but cannons seem to represent something much more than destruction.

Cannons would be important to nations in a number of ways other than directly military. For perhaps the first time in WOT history, there is a weapon on the battlefield that is able to cause as much destruction as the OP. The implications of this could be potentially huge. Suddenly, an army doesn't NEED OP users to succeed against an army with a significant amount of OP users (And considering what happened to the Shaido when they fought Perrin, and Dumai's Wells, OP users are the make or break unit for an army).

Seems to me that this would mean that people wouldn't need the White Tower or other such organizations as much anymore, if they can have weapons that let simple soldiers do the same amount of destruction. Cannons are the first step on the path to industry, and represent the first serious challenge to the OP (in the form of science)

GonzoTheGreat
11-17-2010, 11:50 AM
Apart from the fact that blocking off the front of the cannon with a weave of Air would pretty much render it useless. At best.

Landro
11-17-2010, 12:00 PM
Apart from the fact that blocking off the front of the cannon with a weave of Air would pretty much render it useless. At best.

They would only know that if they have watched Buggs Bunny cartoons. I don't think they have television yet though :p

tiredofbuttons
11-17-2010, 12:30 PM
There is also the problem of escalating force.

1) With a channeler they can decide how much force to use. Even to use deadly force or not. Dragons can only be used to kill.

2) There are maybe 5000 trained channelers in the world. They could easily make a lot more dragons.

3) With the tiny amount of training necessary, just about anyone can use a dragon. Including bandits/renegades etc.

Khoram
11-17-2010, 12:39 PM
Seems to me that this would mean that people wouldn't need the White Tower or other such organizations as much anymore, if they can have weapons that let simple soldiers do the same amount of destruction. Cannons are the first step on the path to industry, and represent the first serious challenge to the OP (in the form of science)

Which greatly diminishes the influence that the WT has over Randland.

But don't forget Rand's academy in Cairhien - the art of long-range warfare (and I mean long-range) really began there with the advent of the trebuchet, as used against the Shaido in the Siege of Cairhien. Plus there's the invention of the steamwagon (which doesn't really work that well, yet, but it'll come soon).

Servus Christi
11-17-2010, 12:43 PM
Plus there's the invention of the steamwagon (which doesn't really work that well, yet, but it'll come soon).

What? The thing works great, it made it from Cairhien to Tear after all.

Terez
11-17-2010, 12:44 PM
There are maybe 5000 trained channelers in the world.
Only if you aren't counting the Windfinders, Seanchan, Ayyad, or Land o Madmen channelers. There are close to 1000 Aes Sedai, close to 1000 Asha'man, close to 2000 Kin, close to 1000 channeling Wise Ones (probably more), etc.

Edit: And I forgot about the close to 2000 novices at the White Tower, many of whom have been raised to Accepted now. They have been trained at least to a degree.

tiredofbuttons
11-17-2010, 01:13 PM
Only if you aren't counting the Windfinders, Seanchan, Ayyad, or Land o Madmen channelers. There are close to 1000 Aes Sedai, close to 1000 Asha'man, close to 2000 Kin, close to 1000 channeling Wise Ones (probably more), etc.

Edit: And I forgot about the close to 2000 novices at the White Tower, many of whom have been raised to Accepted now. They have been trained at least to a degree.

I meant battle trained. Useful in battle. You could up the number by 10 and the number of potential dragons would still overwhelm it.

Khoram
11-17-2010, 01:34 PM
What? The thing works great, it made it from Cairhien to Tear after all.

Did it? :eek: I don't remember if it had. I don't even remember it leaving for Tear, to be completely honest. :rolleyes:

Landro
11-17-2010, 01:54 PM
Did it? :eek: I don't remember if it had. I don't even remember it leaving for Tear, to be completely honest. :rolleyes:

There was a scene where Rand saw it arrive in Tear. Just before Darling got promoted to king I think.

mokaloka99
11-17-2010, 01:56 PM
When i read what brigitte had stated it came across as more profound to me and almost like a foretelling of things to come. A "Glimpse" of future changes.

Not just Cannons making it easier for people to kill others and have armies that can replicate the OP.

These dragons are a giant step in innovation for hundreds of new technologies that will change the age and help usher in an age of rebuilding and technology.

Cannons > Guns > bombs > Steam Power > machines >
Not to mention the improvements in the business sectors with these technologies.

nikunjm
11-17-2010, 08:12 PM
One of the first weapon obsoleted by the canons was the bow and arrow, Birgitte's favored weapon.

her world is changed forever, not just this life, future lives too!!!

imagine being obsolete for this life and all future lives too.

Khoram
11-22-2010, 01:44 PM
One of the first weapon obsoleted by the canons was the bow and arrow, Birgitte's favored weapon.

her world is changed forever, not just this life, future lives too!!!

imagine being obsolete for this life and all future lives too.

There's still strategic advantage for bows and arrows - stealth. One can carry a relatively small bow with arrows, and can quietly take out different people - a cannon is just loud, noisome, and unwieldy. When they get guns (especially with silencers), that's when the bow and arrow is made more or less obsolete.

tiredofbuttons
11-22-2010, 01:47 PM
One of the first weapon obsoleted by the canons was the bow and arrow, Birgitte's favored weapon.

her world is changed forever, not just this life, future lives too!!!

imagine being obsolete for this life and all future lives too.

Until the next breaking. I bet she'd be awesome with a gun anyway.

Khoram
11-22-2010, 01:48 PM
Until the next breaking. I bet she'd be awesome with a gun anyway.

She'd probably be a sniper...

Rand al'Fain
11-23-2010, 12:55 AM
Which greatly diminishes the influence that the WT has over Randland.

But don't forget Rand's academy in Cairhien - the art of long-range warfare (and I mean long-range) really began there with the advent of the trebuchet, as used against the Shaido in the Siege of Cairhien. Plus there's the invention of the steamwagon (which doesn't really work that well, yet, but it'll come soon).

You mean ballistas. A trebuchet is this:
http://gottatopic.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/trebuchet_copy.jpg

While a ballista is this:

http://www.enciclopedia.com.pt/images/ballista_1_jpg021397f3-be73-4b1a-99ae-5b95335b61a1Large.jpg
As you can see, the trebuchet is not designed to fire spears, arrows, or bolts. A ballista is, and is what was made, unless it was a scorpion (smakker, more mobile version of ballista).

Khoram
11-23-2010, 08:40 AM
Yes. That's what I meant. I got them mixed up, is all. :D

GonzoTheGreat
11-23-2010, 09:44 AM
Yes. That's what I meant. I got them mixed up, is all. :DNo problem. Until 25 of the wrong type arrive during a siege in reaction to such a mistake on an order form.

Khoram
11-23-2010, 09:47 AM
No problem. Until 25 of the wrong type arrive during a siege in reaction to such a mistake on an order form.

Well, now we know I won't be making such a mistake. ;)

I seem to remember hearing that the Scorpion wasn't very effective. Did I hear wrong?

GonzoTheGreat
11-23-2010, 09:57 AM
I seem to remember hearing that the Scorpion wasn't very effective. Did I hear wrong?From what I know of it (not all that much, but mayhap a bit more than the average person), they did not do all that much damage. So in purely numeric terms, they may not have been cost effective. But on the other hand, they had a long range, and high penetration power.
So standing far away did not make you safe. Holding up a shield in front of you did not make you safe. This tended to be disheartening to the party that did not have these things, and as a result morale suffered. Which affected combat strength, and as a result may have made the scorpions effective after all.

So the answer is: sometimes they were, sometimes they weren't. Useful, that, isn't it?

Khoram
11-23-2010, 10:14 AM
From what I know of it (not all that much, but mayhap a bit more than the average person), they did not do all that much damage. So in purely numeric terms, they may not have been cost effective. But on the other hand, they had a long range, and high penetration power.
So standing far away did not make you safe. Holding up a shield in front of you did not make you safe. This tended to be disheartening to the party that did not have these things, and as a result morale suffered. Which affected combat strength, and as a result may have made the scorpions effective after all.

So the answer is: sometimes they were, sometimes they weren't. Useful, that, isn't it?

Very. :D

Maybe I was just thinking of their abilities at a relatively close range compared to longer ranges. Any long-range weapon up close isn't usually as effective as if it's being used from a greater distance away. Unless we're talking bows and arrows.