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Edynol
11-17-2010, 10:56 AM
I've been trying to think of Callandor's other fult which Min talks about. We all know that one fault is that it has no buffer like other angreal, but what could the other one be? I can't really think of anything and it's buggin me. lol. I have a few theories but I don't really know if they are plausible.

One is that it might lock a circle together. What I mean is this. To use it safely, men and women have to link, and when linking, traditionally, one can leave the circle if they wish and can't be forced to do or aid in something. But what if using Call binds the circle together, therefore allowing whoever is in control to do whatever he wants despite what those linked to him/her wish?

My other thought is maybe it might be similar to an ad'am, in a way. We know if a man who can channel or learn to channel links with a female dammane, they both die because saidin can't control saidar and vice versa. So what if callandor allows whoever is in control to not just feed of saidar/saidin, having the two work together, but instead to control both, allowing whoever is in control to drain those linked to him, thus removing the safety of linking? We know that in a circle, one cannot cause another to burn out, but what if using the link as a buffer itself comes at the price of allowing those linked to burn out to protect the one in control? Or like the ad'am, it slowly kills all who are linked so it can't be used for an extended length of time?

Like I said, these are just the only things I can think that might possibly hold some weight. If someone has a better idea, please share it. I just wanna know. lol.

Grig
11-17-2010, 11:00 AM
To use it safely, men and women have to link, and when linking, traditionally, one can leave the circle if they wish and can't be forced to do or aid in something.

Can you cite this? My recollection is that one cannot leave a circle when they wish, they need to be released by the one controlling the circle. This is one reason the Forsaken won't be caught dead linking with each other.

WinespringBrother
11-17-2010, 11:12 AM
Can you cite this? My recollection is that one cannot leave a circle when they wish, they need to be released by the one controlling the circle. This is one reason the Forsaken won't be caught dead linking with each other.

This is correct. Also, the a'dam does not slowly kill people who are linked through it. Are you thinking of the Domination Band (aka e've) that allows bleed-through of the control from the women to the men?

As for the possibility of the buffer coming at the expense of the linked channelers, that exactly contradicts what Cadsuane said about the only safe way to wield Callandor. I wouldn't call it safe, exactly.

Nafro
11-17-2010, 11:35 AM
I think that the flaw is that it can not only channel Saidin, but can also channel the True Power.

Edynol
11-17-2010, 11:36 AM
Can you cite this? My recollection is that one cannot leave a circle when they wish, they need to be released by the one controlling the circle. This is one reason the Forsaken won't be caught dead linking with each other.

This is explained when they ued the Bowl of the Winds. One cannot be forced to link.

This is correct. Also, the a'dam does not slowly kill people who are linked through it. Are you thinking of the Domination Band (aka e've) that allows bleed-through of the control from the women to the men?In TGH, is it explained that only females can be sul'dam. And that sometimes men who put on the bracelet wouldkill both themselves and the dammane. There is only one conclusion, that when the man and dammane die, it means the man can learn to channel.

And it kills quickly, not slowly. Whe I say "like" the ad'am, I meant similar, not exactly like it.

As for the possibility of the buffer coming at the expense of the linked channelers, that exactly contradicts what Cadsuane said about the only safe way to wield Callandor. I wouldn't call it safe, exactly.
It would be safe for a limited time, as long as whoever is in control is careful. I would be 'safer', I should say than using it unaided.

arioch
11-17-2010, 11:51 AM
I've been trying to think of Callandor's other fult which Min talks about.

Given the context of the discussion it certainly refers to the line of prophecy about how all that is the wielder of Callandor can be seized, and the viewing of Min of an onyx hand holding the sword. No need to get so wildly speculative except in regards to the specific mechanism of the above.

Grig
11-17-2010, 12:17 PM
This is explained when they ued the Bowl of the Winds. One cannot be forced to link.

One cannot be forced to enter a link. That is completely different from being able to leave whenever one chooses. Besides, one really can be forced to enter a link, as the BA uses that as a means of torture (but of course the AS and Sea Folk were not aware of this possibility).

tiredofbuttons
11-17-2010, 12:20 PM
I've been trying to think of Callandor's other fult which Min talks about. We all know that one fault is that it has no buffer like other angreal, but what could the other one be? I can't really think of anything and it's buggin me. lol. I have a few theories but I don't really know if they are plausible.

One is that it might lock a circle together. What I mean is this. To use it safely, men and women have to link, and when linking, traditionally, one can leave the circle if they wish and can't be forced to do or aid in something. But what if using Call binds the circle together, therefore allowing whoever is in control to do whatever he wants despite what those linked to him/her wish?

My other thought is maybe it might be similar to an ad'am, in a way. We know if a man who can channel or learn to channel links with a female dammane, they both die because saidin can't control saidar and vice versa. So what if callandor allows whoever is in control to not just feed of saidar/saidin, having the two work together, but instead to control both, allowing whoever is in control to drain those linked to him, thus removing the safety of linking? We know that in a circle, one cannot cause another to burn out, but what if using the link as a buffer itself comes at the price of allowing those linked to burn out to protect the one in control? Or like the ad'am, it slowly kills all who are linked so it can't be used for an extended length of time?

Like I said, these are just the only things I can think that might possibly hold some weight. If someone has a better idea, please share it. I just wanna know. lol.

Magnifies the taint. Since the taint is the true power it is a sa'angreal for the true power ;-)

Landro
11-17-2010, 12:44 PM
Magnifies the taint. Since the taint is the true power it is a sa'angreal for the true power ;-)

Rand has used Callandor to channel Saidin and so have others during the Cleansing. It could be possible that Callandor can be used for both or even also for Saidar.

tiredofbuttons
11-17-2010, 01:15 PM
Rand has used Callandor to channel Saidin and so have others during the Cleansing. It could be possible that Callandor can be used for both or even also for Saidar.

I didn't say it wasn't a sa'angreal for the one power as well.

nameless
11-17-2010, 01:25 PM
Magnifying the taint is probably gonna end up being the important one. Rand's already got a huge amount of darkness trying to eat his brain, so anything that makes him even more vulnerable to mental manipulation is certain to be A Bad Thing. Fortunately he won't be the one in control of the circle so it probably won't really matter if he goes crazy halfway through whatever it is he's gonna end up doing.

Edynol
11-18-2010, 09:06 AM
Magnifying the taint is probably gonna end up being the important one. Rand's already got a huge amount of darkness trying to eat his brain, so anything that makes him even more vulnerable to mental manipulation is certain to be A Bad Thing. Fortunately he won't be the one in control of the circle so it probably won't really matter if he goes crazy halfway through whatever it is he's gonna end up doing.

I'm pretty sure he is going to be leading the circle. He's the one who has to do the weaves to seal the bore. He knows the weave, and there is no way he can teach to a woman. And only the one leading the circle can actually do weaves. The others are just a power source. And even if he could, there's no way of telling if they'd do it right. Rand has the knowledge and as LTT he has done it before. So for him to not lead the circle would be pointless. That basically would say he isn't even needed for TG because he would just be used as a power source. And if that's all he would be, a dozen or so ashies could stand in for him while he blew up shadowspawn.

Davian93
11-18-2010, 09:20 AM
Two quick points:

1. There is no taint to magnify at this point...Saidin is clean.

2. Rand can't lead a circle of 1 man and 2 women...


TITLE: Path of Daggers
CHAPTER: 27 - The Bargain
"What do you mean about Callandor?" "It is flawed," she replied curtly, "lacking the buffer that makes other sa'angreal safe to use. And it apparently magnifies the taint, inducing wildness of the mind. So long as a man is using it, anyway. The only safe way for you to use The Sword That Is Not a Sword, the only way to use it without the risk of killing yourself, or trying to do the Light alone knows what insanity, is linked with two women, and one of them guiding the flows."

Landro
11-18-2010, 09:28 AM
2. Rand can't lead a circle of 1 man and 2 women...

So you're saying he should add channelers to the circle until a man can direct the weaves?

Edynol
11-18-2010, 09:40 AM
Two quick points:
2. Rand can't lead a circle of 1 man and 2 women...

The women guiding the flows part is just AS beingproud thinking they know everything. I don't think that's a real fact. And anyone can lead a circle. It may take a woman to start it, but anyone can be passed lead. And I actually think someone can take the lead by force if the BotW scene is a indication where the Windfinder snatches control before Elayne actually passes it to her. But there might be other variables to concider there. Not sure.

Or actually, Come to think of it, the reason for women guiding the flows is so it doesn't magnify te taint. But now that it's gone, there's no reason a man can't.

Davian93
11-18-2010, 09:51 AM
The women guiding the flows part is just AS beingproud thinking they know everything. I don't think that's a real fact. And anyone can lead a circle. It may take a woman to start it, but anyone can be passed lead. And I actually think someone can take the lead by force if the BotW scene is a indication where the Windfinder snatches control before Elayne actually passes it to her. But there might be other variables to concider there. Not sure.

Or actually, Come to think of it, the reason for women guiding the flows is so it doesn't magnify te taint. But now that it's gone, there's no reason a man can't.

It induces wildness as well. Rand (or any man wielding it) could simply lose control using it.

Caveatar
11-18-2010, 09:55 AM
I've been trying to think of Callandor's other fault which Min talks about. We all know that one fault is that it has no buffer like other angreal, but what could the other one be? I can't really think of anything and it's buggin me. lol. I have a few theories but I don't really know if they are plausible.


Maybe a SoulTrap like the 2 or 3 that Moridin is wearing. (Azura's Star? anyone who plays Morrowind or Oblivion?"

"Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized."

"There's a phrase," Min said, "in the Jendai Prophecy. I wish we knew more of them. Anyway, it says 'and the Blade will bind him by twain.'"
MinPOV after Maradon
"Rand al'Thor was the Dragon Reborn. He'd be bled dry, ground down, used up before this was through. It was almost enough to make a woman stop trying."
"There's another phrase, from The Karaethon Cycle. Anyway, I think that Callandor might be flawed beyond that. I think it might . . . Rand, I think it might make you weak, open you to attack, if you use it."

So Rand may be vulnerable to being soul trapped while holding Callandor and Callandor may be a Coursouvra device.

Since it is basically unlimited in some ways by having no buffer maybe good ol' Rand will SoulTrap the Dark One or Moridin inside it. Wouldn't That Kill The Goat?

Or Rand himself, his soul, 'all that he is' is seized by the Blade. Then when Moridin removes Rand's blood, like Semirhage talked about having done before, his body becomes the 'husk' seen in some vision or other.

Then 3 on a boat and he who is dead yet lives, with his soul absent from his body.
That state would be like when a Draghkar consumes the soul before ending the life as Aviendha mentioned to Rand once.

His blood on the Rocks. Check.
he who is dead yet lives. Check

Now if it will BIND HIM BY TWAIN means bound to the two other taveren... "and "the Three shall be One"

The Eye of the World CH:47
(Moiraine to Agelmar)
"They are ta'veren," Moiraine said soothingly. "The Pattern weaves itself around them. Already the Dark One has tried to kill each of them more than once.
Three ta'veren in one place are enough to change the life around them as surely as a whirlpool changes the path of a straw.

When the place is the Eye of the World, the Pattern might weave even the Father of Lies into itself, and make him harmless again."

The pattern reweaves and Bob's your uncle.

Several other things but it is too long already so I will stop.

Grig
11-18-2010, 10:20 AM
Davian, you really didn't bold enough.

The only safe way for you to use The Sword That Is Not a Sword, the only way to use it without the risk of killing yourself, or trying to do the Light alone knows what insanity, is linked with two women, and one of them guiding the flows."

Caddy only a woman needs to guide the flows because the taint was still in effect, and Callandor magnifies the taint. A woman needed to guide the flows because the male drawing saidin through it would be batshit insane for the duration.

David Selig
11-18-2010, 10:29 AM
According to the rules for linking and mixed circles in the BWB, in a circle of two women and one man, any of them can lead. Plus we've see both a man(Damer Flinn) and a woman(Elza) lead such crcles during the fight at the end of WH.

Maybe it's something specific to Callandor.

Edynol
11-18-2010, 10:40 AM
It induces wildness as well. Rand (or any man wielding it) could simply lose control using it.
If it induces wildness, then it would affect females as well. But the whole concept of "wildness" I think is silly and something someone made up cause I never heard of it in the series.

Caveatar, I think you have the best theories so far. I think you might be right on one or more of those. That actually gives me an idea. If Rand's soul gets trapped in the blade, this give Ave a huge role. She can read ter'angreal we know, but what if her talent expands beyond that? Or what if Cal is both Sa' and ter'angreal? Seems crazy I know cause how can something be two types of angreal? I myself find it unlikely.

But anyway, what if Ave can somehow figure this out by touching it? We know some angreal are beyond her, like the one in Rhuidian, but maybe her power/talent will grow by that time. So then she can maybe sense Rand's soul and maybe put it back in his body. Or maybe Ny can. And it wouldn't really be like healing death, since it would only be a one time thing, something that can only be done with someone who died using Cal. So we wouldn't have to worry about a weave to heal death getting out and all.

Wild theories I know but I've seen a few theories that most of the forums thought would never happen, happen.

Caveatar
11-18-2010, 12:00 PM
If it induces wildness, then it would affect females as well. But the whole concept of "wildness" I think is silly and something someone made up cause I never heard of it in the series.

Caveatar, I think you have the best theories so far. I think you might be right on one or more of those. That actually gives me an idea. If Rand's soul gets trapped in the blade, this give Ave a huge role. She can read ter'angreal we know, but what if her talent expands beyond that? Or what if Cal is both Sa' and ter'angreal? Seems crazy I know cause how can something be two types of angreal? I myself find it unlikely.

But anyway, what if Ave can somehow figure this out by touching it? We know some angreal are beyond her, like the one in Rhuidian, but maybe her power/talent will grow by that time. So then she can maybe sense Rand's soul and maybe put it back in his body. Or maybe Ny can. And it wouldn't really be like healing death, since it would only be a one time thing, something that can only be done with someone who died using Cal. So we wouldn't have to worry about a weave to heal death getting out and all.

Wild theories I know but I've seen a few theories that most of the forums thought would never happen, happen.



"Your theory is crazy, but it's not crazy enough to be true." - Niels Bohr

So are our collective theories crazy I believe, however I have confidence in RJ and BS to come up with ideas that ARE crazy enough to be the real thing. :D

I just hope that the Pattern DOES weave the DO into itself, ending up with a Linear Time that doesn't keep recycling the same old sh1t over and over and over. Of course then Randlanders would have to worry about the Heat Death of the Universe or maybe Al'Gore or D'Anquayle could come up with something else to stir up crap with like BowlofWindsWarming or OnePowerWinter. It is fun to theorize and try to outguess the writer(s) though. :)

tiredofbuttons
11-18-2010, 12:07 PM
Two quick points:

1. There is no taint to magnify at this point...Saidin is clean.

2. Rand can't lead a circle of 1 man and 2 women...

I suspect that the taint WAS the true power that bled back into the source when the bore was sealed. It makes people ill and insane when they channel it. Moridin gets ill when he channels the OP now because he has channeled too much TP.

If it magnified the taint why could it not have been an angreal or sa'angreal for the TP? Noone who could know has handled the thing or studied it.

Ieyasu
11-18-2010, 01:12 PM
I suspect that the taint WAS the true power that bled back into the source when the bore was sealed. It makes people ill and insane when they channel it. Moridin gets ill when he channels the OP now because he has channeled too much TP.

If it magnified the taint why could it not have been an angreal or sa'angreal for the TP? Noone who could know has handled the thing or studied it.

That is a rather creative and unfounded reason for Rand's channeling illness... I am not convinced Moridin felt the same illness himself if he channeled the One Power. He looked ill one time, but that does not mean he felt ill like Rand did every time, which leads me to believe he was feeling Rand's illness rather than feeling his own.

I do not think it is reasonable to think that the Lightfriends who created the sword knew anything at all about the True Power, which would make it difficult to make it a TP magnifier,

There is an author quote saying the flaw was a manufacturing flaw, which would lead it to be unintentional.

I think the flaw in the buffer will somehow allow the Shadow to enter into, or sieze control of, the circle.

Pixelante
11-18-2010, 04:39 PM
I always figured that a woman needed to lead the circle so that the buffer against drawing too much from being a participant in the circle offset Callandor's lack of built in buffer.

Then they could draw the maximum amount of power through Callandor without burning the man out, where as if he were to lead the circle, he would not benefit from the circle's anti-burnout protection.

Mort
11-18-2010, 05:35 PM
My take on the whole Callandor issue is that whatever "flaws" Callandor has, they are actually built into the blade with a purpose. Not actual "flaws" as it were.

Callandor was built specifically for the Dragon. At the time of creation, the taint was a very real threat (with no solution to get rid of it) and they probably made a weapon for the Dragon to use safely so that he wouldn't affect him with the taint as much, or at all - while using two women channelers.

At the same time I think Callandor was made specifially to help the Dragon fulfill his destiny, fight the DO. I think one of the "flaws" built into Callandor is actually going to be helpful in the Dragons attempt at fighting the DO. Just don't know exactly how yet.

arioch
11-18-2010, 05:41 PM
My take on the whole Callandor issue is that whatever "flaws" Callandor has, they are actually built into the blade with a purpose. Not actual "flaws" as it were.

Callandor was built specifically for the Dragon. At the time of creation, the taint was a very real threat (with no solution to get rid of it) and they probably made a weapon for the Dragon to use safely so that he wouldn't affect him with the taint as much, or at all - while using two women channelers.

At the same time I think Callandor was made specifially to help the Dragon fulfill his destiny, fight the DO. I think one of the "flaws" built into Callandor is actually going to be helpful in the Dragons attempt at fighting the DO. Just don't know exactly how yet.

I too think the flaws are intentional. The Karaethon Cycle Callandor Prophecies are those usage manual CAUTIONs.

Davian93
11-18-2010, 06:44 PM
My take on the whole Callandor issue is that whatever "flaws" Callandor has, they are actually built into the blade with a purpose. Not actual "flaws" as it were.

Callandor was built specifically for the Dragon. At the time of creation, the taint was a very real threat (with no solution to get rid of it) and they probably made a weapon for the Dragon to use safely so that he wouldn't affect him with the taint as much, or at all - while using two women channelers.

At the same time I think Callandor was made specifially to help the Dragon fulfill his destiny, fight the DO. I think one of the "flaws" built into Callandor is actually going to be helpful in the Dragons attempt at fighting the DO. Just don't know exactly how yet.

RJ's comments on the matter seem to contradict that though...they are supposedly manufacturing flaws due to quality control issues.


JWB: Was Callandor constructed during the War of Power?
RJ: Yes

JWB: Was it used in the War of Power?
RJ: Yes, that is how the flaw was discovered.

JWB: Why didn't they ward/buffer Callandor?
RJ: The flaw with Callandor is simply a manufacturing flaw. (He went on to talk about how they were at the end of their tech age with only a few sho-wings and jo-cars left. A couple of shocklances were still around but they were not as prevalent as they had been. Anyway they had been mass producing ter'angreal, angreal, and sa'angreal, and there are bound to be flaws with the products. The flaw with Callandor is simply one such flaw.)

Squocka
11-18-2010, 08:55 PM
The Rules of Circles, if can remember them correctly. Will try to look in BWB as i think thats where it came from.

women start the link but can only link up to 13 before a man is required then you can have 26 female 1 male from then on it is 1 male per (8 I think) extra females up to 72 total channelers.

There also must always be more females in the circle than males except for 1 on 1, 2 on 2 and (2 males and 1 female, cant remember why this is allowed but i think it is will have to look it up.)

Anybody can be in charge of the circle except for the following rules
A man must lead the biggest circle 72
A man must lead in all circles where men equal or better the females ie 1 on 1, 2 on 2, and the 2men 1 female
A man must also lead if there are more than 1 man in a circle of less than 13
A female must lead if there are only the minimum number of men present for a maximum sized circle, ie 13 female 1 male (female must lead)26 female 2 male, 34/3, 42/4, 50/5, 58/6.

Also once you are linked only death can unlink you unless the leader releases you, you can walk far enough away for your power to be not useful but you will still be part of the circle.

Edynol
04-27-2011, 04:20 PM
Maybe the flaw is something simple. I mean, when Narishma was using it in the circle during the cleansing, it worked just fine. I'm thinking maybe it just makes the user get tired more quickly. Or maybe it allows the leader of the circle to draw too much of the power from the holder and removes the protection from the link.

I mean, it buffers them from drawing too much power at once thus burning them out, but it allows to keep on drawing power consistantly, thus making him die from sheer exhaustion as if they were channeling by themselves. Though then again, that almost happened to Ny during the cleansing, so maybe that's not a flaw at all but just a danger of linking period. I just remember Narishma being exhausted and sitting on the ground while holding the sword while the sisters he was linked with were still standing.

Or maybe the part where it induces Wildness is the second and everyone else just forgot about it somehow. The buffer is one flaw, but the Wildness is a seperate, second flaw, not connected to the buffer.