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Sodas
11-17-2010, 06:33 PM
So yes, I finally am back after my long vacation to Florida and have now read TOM. I tried to do this without any outside influence, so if it's already been covered, I apologize. Also, to be frank, I didn't much like tGS. I felt it was story was dull and that the writing was too dry for my taste. So coming into TOM i was a little apprehensive.

That said, I actually was pleasantly suprised. I like TOM more than I liked TGS. This is mostly because I really enjoyed Perrin and Aviendha's scenes throughout the Book. The TOG didn't disappoint either. There were a few characters that were a bit off, but some of the scenes were gripping, and made up for the books other shortcomings.

To start, the Dreamspike was awesome. I'm so glad that it turned into the major plot point for this book. I had long said that my favorite subject in the series is TAR, and TAR played the major role in this book. I have long argued that TAR is critical to Traveling, and lo and behold we have an object placed in TAR that effects Traveling in the Real World. I argued that Trollocs and Fades could not enter TAR, and that moving through a Gateway was tantamount to moving through TAR. So I primarily argued that Trollocs and Fades couldn't Travel during the debate over whether or not Trolloc's Traveled into the Stone back in TDR because they couldn't enter TAR. Compile that with a Talent for Gateways belonging to someone whose intensely observant for details, which seems like someone who could control TAR well, and it continues to suggest that I've been vindicated in my view pretty thoroughly.

I thought the best scene in the book was the 3 battles in Tar Valon with the Dreamspike. Poor Hopper, but the battle was well told. I also enjoyed the reveal of Mesaana. However, I definitely didn't agree with SH blaming Graendal for Mesaana's demise. Who cares if the people working for Mesaana thought they would have done better elsewhere for the battle, they failed because Mesaana (as well as everyone else) was overpowered in TAR by Egwene. Mesaana and the Black Ajah would have failed reguardless of where in TAR they fought Egwene. So the failure is all Mesaana and the Black Ajah, not Graendal.

I also didn't like that SH equated Graendal's actions leading to Mesaana's death to Aran'gars (where she directly contributed to it) and Asmodean's (where we still have no clue what really happened). So is the book seemingly leaves us to interpret how Graendal was behind Asmodean's demise. Afterall, Graendal was responsible for Aran'gars death and supposedly Mesaana's death, but she didn't actually kill them. Does that mean the same for Asmodean? That her actions lead to Asmodean's death, but that she didn't really kill him? Seems like the Asmodean question continues.

Overall, I really liked Perrin's character development. I also liked Aviendha's. Her scene in Rhuidean was great. The one thing that stuck out to me was that the Aiel decided to go to war with the Seachan, which lead to their own demise. I figured that now that their history was common knowledge, that they came from the ways of peace, that they would have returned to it. But instead, Rand's children seemed to think that they were purely a weapon of war, and used it as their rationale for going to war with the Seachan. I kinda found that to be irrational, but did like finding out that Aviendha might have quadruplet super-channelers. Aviendha seems to be the central cog of the world after the Last Battle.

Speaking of Rand, I think TOM settled the Real vs Construct debate decisively. The voice was created by the Taint and the voice was Real.

The scene that is important is Nyneave's delving and removal of the Taint on the other Asha'man's mind. She was able to do so and he was permanently clear of those Shadows. Well, coincidentally, Rand built a layer of Light under the Taint on his brain, supposedly when he reintegrated on Dragonmount, and he no longer hears a seperate voice. I think that proves that the voice was created by the Taint, and that voice was more than what Rand normally would have ever known without the Taint.

I also thought the scene's where Rand talked about his mental state spoke very clearly on the subject, particularly the "test" by the Borderlands. Rand says that if he had been tested a month before, he would have failed. That basically means that Rand didn't have access to all of LTT's memories prior to the reintegration. If Rand had created LTT from his own memories, then he would have had that knowledge. But instead, LTT's life maintained some of it's own memories outside Rand's knowledge and would only come to light only once LTT and Rand were reintegrated as one. So it's clear that the Taint created the Voice from Rand's own Soul, so it was real and separate from Rand's consciousness. That proved Callandor's theory wrong once and for all.

The ToG scenes were well written, and didn't disappoint after many books. I like how the Ashan'drei was the key to escape the TOG. After reading that BS liked to drop hints that were somewhat literal, I figured that some small writing, like what was on the Asha'ndrei. I don't know if this has been confirmed as the "small detail," but that's what it seems like to me. I did call out that someone would die in TOG as well, so Jain dying was no surprise really.

I'm sure there are plenty of other things to talk about in TOM, but those are the biggest things that stuck out to me. But overall, like I said, I thought it was surprisingly good and look forward to AMOL, particularly the Black Tower and it's Dreamspike.

amazinglarry
11-17-2010, 08:19 PM
Speaking of Rand, I think TOM settled the Real vs Construct debate decisively. The voice was created by the Taint and the voice was Real.

The scene that is important is Nyneave's delving and removal of the Taint on the other Asha'man's mind. She was able to do so and he was permanently clear of those Shadows. Well, coincidentally, Rand built a layer of Light under the Taint on his brain, supposedly when he reintegrated on Dragonmount, and he no longer hears a seperate voice. I think that proves that the voice was created by the Taint, and that voice was more than what Rand normally would have ever known without the Taint.

I also thought the scene's where Rand talked about his mental state spoke very clearly on the subject, particularly the "test" by the Borderlands. Rand says that if he had been tested a month before, he would have failed. That basically means that Rand didn't have access to all of LTT's memories prior to the reintegration. If Rand had created LTT from his own memories, then he would have had that knowledge. But instead, LTT's life maintained some of it's own memories outside Rand's knowledge and would only come to light only once LTT and Rand were reintegrated as one. So it's clear that the Taint created the Voice from Rand's own Soul, so it was real and separate from Rand's consciousness. That proved Callandor's theory wrong once and for all.

It's funny that you say this...I didn't think that there was any evidence in ToM to support the "Real" theory over the "Construct" one.

I don't think the Delving scene with Nynaeve tells us anything other than that Rand's epiphany atop Dragonmount created a buffer that blocked out the effects of the taint. We also know that it helped Rand accept all of LTT's memories and personality into his conscious.

This information is still consistent with a scenario in which the voice is a symptom of taint-madness that Rand uses to rationalize LTT's memories as they seep into his head. The epiphany got rid of the voice for two reasons: 1. it produced the sparkly taint-blocking thing Nynaeve sees in his head and 2. it gave Rand full access to LTT's memories rather than the unpredictable seepage he was getting before.

The only new information we have from ToM is that the taint did not cause the memory seepage. If it did, the sparkly taint-blocker would've blocked his access to LTT's memories.

I tend to side with the "Construct" side of this debate mainly because that's the side that Rand himself took in TGS.

amazinglarry

Davian93
11-17-2010, 08:24 PM
The only new information we have from ToM is that the taint did not cause the memory seepage. If it did, the sparkly taint-blocker would've blocked his access to LTT's memories.

Completely untrue...the taint could have taken down the barrier between lives. Once its down, blocking the taint doesnt make it magically get better. The barrier is still gone.

And the Construct theory DOES look pretty rock solid at this point.

Terez
11-17-2010, 08:25 PM
The only new information we have from ToM is that the taint did not cause the memory seepage. If it did, the sparkly taint-blocker would've blocked his access to LTT's memories.
That's not necessarily true; in fact, Brandon said that the taint had something to do with it, though it doesn't explain everything. RJ said that what is done by the taint is not undone by the cleansing; the effects remain - they just won't get any worse. The barrier degradation theory just states that the taint eroded the barrier that was blocking the memories.

I tend to side with the "Construct" side of this debate mainly because that's the side that Rand himself took in TGS.
And in TOM - he states that he was always Lews Therin, and Lews Therin was always him. I thought it a little odd that Min pretended not to understand this when she was the one who explained it to Rand in TGS ch. 15.

Sodas is like Isa on this theory - dogmatic forever. Logic isn't likely to convince him. :)

amazinglarry
11-17-2010, 08:35 PM
Completely untrue...the taint could have taken down the barrier between lives. Once its down, blocking the taint doesnt make it magically get better. The barrier is still gone.

And the Construct theory DOES look pretty rock solid at this point.

Well, Healing the taint effect (either by Nynaeve or Rand's epiphany) magically made Rand's LTT voice and Naeff's shadow-fear go away. I don't think you can unequivocally say that it wouldn't slam shut the window it opened. I mean, it completely reversed all other effects of the taint. I guess we don't know for sure whether barrier degradation is a permanent effect or whether the "hole" in that barrier was being held open by the taint madness.

amazinglarry

Davian93
11-17-2010, 08:39 PM
Well, Healing the taint effect (either by Nynaeve or Rand's epiphany) magically made Rand's LTT voice and Naeff's shadow-fear go away. I don't think you can unequivocally say that it wouldn't slam shut the window it opened. I mean, it completely reversed all other effects of the taint. I guess we don't know for sure whether barrier degradation is a permanent effect or whether the "hole" in that barrier was being held open by the taint madness.

amazinglarry

Rand realizing that LTT was just memories on Dragonmount made it go away.

Terez
11-17-2010, 08:40 PM
Rand realizing that LTT was just memories on Dragonmount made it go away.
And that, in turn, led to the Light-warding in his brain.

Davian93
11-17-2010, 08:50 PM
And that, in turn, led to the Light-warding in his brain.

Seems like a logical conclusion. Though I tend to take the light warding as more of a PLE where the creator basically infused him more than anything...as a result of his ephipany.

Sodas
11-18-2010, 12:13 AM
It's funny that you say this...I didn't think that there was any evidence in ToM to support the "Real" theory over the "Construct" one. I don't think the Delving scene with Nynaeve tells us anything other than that Rand's epiphany atop Dragonmount created a buffer that blocked out the effects of the taint. We also know that it helped Rand accept all of LTT's memories and personality into his conscious.

Good that you admit that LTT's real memories and personalty transfered to Rand's conciousness. I mean heck, that's what the Real Theory basically was suggesting would happen. Perhaps I should refresh the conversation from Callandor's theory.

http://www.theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=51&theo=2290.
First, let me provide the other side of the arguement. People that think Lews Therin is real, generally believe everything else about this theory too (as I said, mainly the difference was if he was "real" or not).

This I do not believe for two main reasons:

1. A personality is a summation of memories. If Rand had Lews Therin's entire life of memories in his head, I would agree he has his personality. However, to do this, I believe Rand's barrier would have to be entirely degraded. I do not believe that of course ;) It's severely damaged; but not completely gone.

2. If this were true it would mean that Lews Therin would've came over into Rand entirely since the moment the barrier degraded enough to first happen. This means that Lews Therin would've appeared just like he does in Crossroads of Twilight, back in The Shadow Rising or The Fires of Heaven. Rand would've gone from what he was like in that time period, to what he is now in Crossroads. A lot of people do not realize how much of a big change that is. This view does not explain how Lews Therin is growing in presence. It would be like fliping on a lightswitch: Lews Therin wasn't there --> flip --> Lews Therin is there in full swing.

Construct theory is really the belief that LTT wasn't Real because Rand created LTT. Callandor's real argument was that LTT and Rand never fully merged. If LTT and Rand couldn't merge, than logically LTT had to have been fake. That's sound logic, even I'll admit, and has alwasy been the core of the argument between Real and Construct.

To put it in terms like WH used to put it, let say you have two vinyl records. How can you tell if one was fake? Well, the answer is you play them at the same time so you can tell if the music lines up completely. Before, we never could tell because Rand and LTT never played together. But now, you play LTT and Rand's records at the same and they both sound the same. Not a single difference between the two of them.

So, thanks to TOM, we know that the Rand and real LTT merged. As a result, now Rand has the entire life of LTT in his head. As Rand stated, he wouldn't have passed the Borderlander's tests if NOT for gaining memories he didn't have a month ago.


"Only a month earlier," Rand said. "I wouldn't have had the memories to answer you."

So without real LTT memories, memories that Rand knowingly didn't have a month earlier, Rand would have never passed the test. Thus proving that LTT was real.

Note that some Construct theories specifically stated that that Rand created LTT out of his own memories. So it's easy to point out that if Rand admits he didn't have those memories before the reintegration, then they didn't come from himself. So he couldn't have built LTT out of memories he didn't have. They had to have come from a real LTT outside of the memories Rand had. So therefore, it's impossible for Rand to have created LTT.


Ultaimtely, Callandor should be proud of his logic, but where Callandor and his theory went wrong is that total reintegration was a process. It took the Taint to break down the barriers between lives to the point where LTT emerged. Then, it took time and Rand forcing himself together with the power of the CK's or a PLE event to reintegrate. But now, finally, we all agree that Rand and LTT are together! And that means that LTT was indeed real.

Now, maybe you have a different interpretation of what the Real Theory means, and you can go for it, but we argued that very point, and now that it could be proven that LTT and Rand reintegrating fully, we are vindicated. Remember, it's not just that LTT's voice was gone, but that LTT and Rand completed each other. Rand couldn't have done so if LTT was not Real.

Belazamon
11-18-2010, 01:36 AM
It's good to see that you still don't properly understand the arguments for the construct camp, Sodas. It can be our little Constant. :D

Tamyrlin
11-18-2010, 01:46 AM
~Grabs some popcorn and some bite size dark milky ways~

Sodas
11-18-2010, 03:23 AM
It's good to see that you still don't properly understand the arguments for the construct camp, Sodas. :D

Then how do you explain Rand getting all of LTT's memories only after reintegration and removal of the Taint from Saidin. If the memory didn't come from himself, since Rand doesn't remember it, nor the Taint, since it no longer was continuing to erode the Barrier between his lives, then where did it come from if not the real LTT?

Terez
11-18-2010, 07:19 AM
~Grabs some popcorn and some bite size dark milky ways~
He's not worth the effort. Looks to me like he's confusing construct theory and barrier degradation theory again.

amazinglarry
11-18-2010, 08:57 AM
Construct theory is really the belief that LTT wasn't Real because Rand created LTT.

My understanding was that the Construct theory said that LTT's memories (and aspects of his personality that seeped through to Rand) are in fact real. But Rand, aided by the taint, constructed the LTT voice in his head as a mechanism to rationalize the memories. The only aspect of LTT that is "fake" is the loony voice.

amazinglarry

Terez
11-18-2010, 10:27 AM
My understanding was that the Construct theory said that LTT's memories (and aspects of his personality that seeped through to Rand) are in fact real. But Rand, aided by the taint, constructed the LTT voice in his head as a mechanism to rationalize the memories. The only aspect of LTT that is "fake" is the loony voice.
This is quite true, but Sodas equates Lews Therin with 'Lews Therin's voice'. Most real'ers do. Rand created the voice, but not the memories.

Bayle
11-18-2010, 10:35 AM
It was always simply memories. Memories of personality are what Rand used to create the "voice" but they were still just memories. Not a real person talking to him.


...ack I don't want to get into this debate again.

Fun reading your impressions though Sodas :)

Davian93
11-18-2010, 10:40 AM
~Grabs some popcorn and some bite size dark milky ways~

~drags in keg~

~flops onto couch~

Game on!

WinespringBrother
11-18-2010, 11:10 AM
~ sits on ESC couch ~

~ puzzled ~

I thought this match was over? Oh, they changed the rules for scoring? And the players are also the referees? I see.

~ weaves fire proof shield ~

GonzoTheGreat
11-18-2010, 11:41 AM
It was always simply memories. Memories of personality are what Rand used to create the "voice" but they were still just memories. Not a real person talking to him.But a "real person" is just memories sloshing around in a brain. Together with whatever innate characteristics come from the Soul, of course, but those would be the same for Rand and LTT. And the influence of the body, but there the issue is no different for LTT or any of the recycled Forsaken, so that's not a reason to deny his reality either.

What more would you say is there to a person?

Terez
11-18-2010, 12:50 PM
But a "real person" is just memories sloshing around in a brain. Together with whatever innate characteristics come from the Soul, of course, but those would be the same for Rand and LTT. And the influence of the body, but there the issue is no different for LTT or any of the recycled Forsaken, so that's not a reason to deny his reality either.
Problem is, the voice is only a 'face' that Rand decided to put to those memories. The 'voice', in fact, rarely shares memories with Rand - those usually are simply remembered by Rand. Because Rand is Lews Therin, after all.

The 'voice' was several things. It was a means by which Rand could disassociate himself from the memories and pretend as if Lews Therin were someone else rather than himself. It was a vehicle for his suppressed thoughts and emotions. The key thing about the voice that convinced everyone it was so 'real' was the fact that it was primarily a vehicle for Rand's suppressed grief over Ilyena, which was just one of many things Rand suppressed. Various little things that Rand wanted to ignore - the link with Moridin, his mistrust for Taim and his cronies, his own encroaching madness - became aspects of the 'voice'. Lews Therin was a convenient back upon which to heap the blame for his crimes.

What more would you say is there to a person?Singularity, for one. ;)

GonzoTheGreat
11-18-2010, 12:55 PM
Singularity, for one. ;)Seems you're not a two-souler. :D
Still, I would say that both Isam-Luc and Fain-Mordeth show that singularity is not really a requirement.

alleluia_cone
11-18-2010, 01:01 PM
I love how 'Rand Sedai' didn't settle this issue once and for all.

This reminds me of the Asmodean thread. It seems we need new glossary entries from Brandon again:

"Rand al'Thor (see Lews Therin Telamon): First off, Rand al'Thor = Lews Therin Telamon."

"Lews Therin Telamon (see Rand al'Thor): First off, Lews Therin Telamon = Rand al'Thor."

Nafro
11-18-2010, 01:02 PM
The construct theory is 100% correct. The voice was never there. Rand himself states that he is, and always was LTT. The taint broke down the barrier and his brain created the voice as a means of dealing with the new "data". I love it when he says that the only difference this time is that he was raised right.

Terez
11-18-2010, 01:03 PM
Seems you're not a two-souler. :D
Still, I would say that both Isam-Luc and Fain-Mordeth show that singularity is not really a requirement.
In both of those cases, we see that there is not much singularity; Isam refers to Luc as a separate person, and vice-versa. Luc hates Perrin, but Isam does not. Fain seems to be merging now, which is interesting - in Far Madding, he clearly has a conversation with Mordeth in his head. In those cases, the multiplicity is natural; in Rand's case, it is unnatural, because Slayer and Fain are both combinations of two souls. Rand is not.

Khoram
11-18-2010, 01:10 PM
In both of those cases, we see that there is not much singularity; Isam refers to Luc as a separate person, and vice-versa. Luc hates Perrin, but Isam does not.

Couldn't you say that Luc and Isam both hate Perrin, seeing as one hates him in the waking world, and the other, as Slayer, hates him in TAR?

GonzoTheGreat
11-18-2010, 01:11 PM
So what? The Realers have never* denied that Rand was the Dragon Reborn.
Just as the other side has never denied that there have been two (at least) incarnations of that soul.

The discussion is over whether the voice Rand hears belongs to the person who lived in the previous Age and was then known as LTT, or whether it was merely a coping mechanism devised by the mind of Rand to deal with having more memories than was comfortable for him.

And, just to muddy things up a bit further: Birgitte shows strong evidence that in between incarnations the Heroes do have one single personality with all the memories from many lifetimes, so some type of integration of personalities is an existing mechanism. This mechanism (or a similar one) could explain why Rand and LTT are now combined.

As far as I can see, RJ and BS have managed to keep both options still open, as they had intended. The only reason why I support the Real position against the Construct one is that the latter is just a bunch of psychological gobbledygook, and I don't like it.

* Except for those who accept my "Mat is the DR" theory, of course. But that theory actually makes a lot more sense with the Construct approach, where the LTT Rand hears is merely a figment of his (subconscious) imagination.

GonzoTheGreat
11-18-2010, 01:14 PM
In both of those cases, we see that there is not much singularity; Isam refers to Luc as a separate person, and vice-versa. Luc hates Perrin, but Isam does not. Fain seems to be merging now, which is interesting - in Far Madding, he clearly has a conversation with Mordeth in his head. In those cases, the multiplicity is natural; in Rand's case, it is unnatural, because Slayer and Fain are both combinations of two souls. Rand is not.As Semirhage said, usually a merger can not be achieved. In the Isam-Luc case such a merger is not intended at all, of course.

I expect that when Fain merges with Mordeth, the result will be an abrupt descent into terminal madness. How to tell the difference is a problem I haven't quite figured out, yet, I am forced to admit.

Crispin's Crispian
11-18-2010, 01:25 PM
I love how 'Rand Sedai' didn't settle this issue once and for all.

This reminds me of the Asmodean thread. It seems we need new glossary entries from Brandon again:

But that was never debated. No Realer I've heard ever thought Rand wasn't the reincarnation of Lews Therin. That's the whole point. The only question was whether the voice in Rand's head was the voice of that previous incarnation, or the voice created by Rand's subconscious.

Gonzo summed it up quite nicely, and I completely agree with him that the debate wasn't really resolved at all--merely sidestepped.

Terez
11-18-2010, 01:49 PM
But that was never debated. No Realer I've heard ever thought Rand wasn't the reincarnation of Lews Therin. That's the whole point. The only question was whether the voice in Rand's head was the voice of that previous incarnation, or the voice created by Rand's subconscious.

Gonzo summed it up quite nicely, and I completely agree with him that the debate wasn't really resolved at all--merely sidestepped.
Oh, it was solved...it's only the stubborn holdouts that think otherwise. Most noobs these days don't even question it, if you'll notice. It was very different before TGS. All Gonzo did was attempt to muddy the waters.

Problem is, it was never logical for the real'ers to assume that, even though Rand=Lews Therin, they are actually two separate conscious minds. It's not any less logical now than it ever was.

The discussion is over whether the voice Rand hears belongs to the person who lived in the previous Age and was then known as LTT, or whether it was merely a coping mechanism devised by the mind of Rand to deal with having more memories than was comfortable for him.
I already addressed that. The 'voice' was never representative of Lews Therin.

And, just to muddy things up a bit further: Birgitte shows strong evidence that in between incarnations the Heroes do have one single personality with all the memories from many lifetimes, so some type of integration of personalities is an existing mechanism. This mechanism (or a similar one) could explain why Rand and LTT are now combined.
That mechanism explains why they were never separate in the first place. Like Rand says, they were not two men, and never had been. The real'ers might have a hope in hell if he'd said 'they were not two men any more'. But that's not what he said.

Besides, Birgitte's particular situation is not all that comparable to Rand's; despite the fact that she's losing her memories, she still remembers more than one past life, and she never had a motive to pretend that those past lives belonged to anyone other than herself. Rand did have that motive.

As far as I can see, RJ and BS have managed to keep both options still open, as they had intended.
If that's what they intended, then they failed horribly.

The only reason why I support the Real position against the Construct one is that the latter is just a bunch of psychological gobbledygook, and I don't like it.
The only reason you're a real'er is because you're afraid Emma will kick you. The real'er position is rather like the Young Earth position. Because God planted those fossils to test our faith, you know. Sometimes there is a simpler, more rational explanation.

amazinglarry
11-18-2010, 01:52 PM
Gonzo summed it up quite nicely, and I completely agree with him that the debate wasn't really resolved at all--merely sidestepped.

I think your position is only correct if you discount Rand's own thoughts on the matter. Without those, the debate is wide open. The only way you can argue the "Real" side after TGS/ToM is if you dismiss Rand as being wrong about the whole thing. But there is no other character in the books who can give a more definitive answer than Rand himself. I go with the Construct side because Rand/LTT is the most reliable source on the matter, and he explains it that way.

I also feel that the fact that Rand/LTT = one soul pretty much negates the comparisons with Luc/Isam or Fain/Mordeth. These are different situations that are not directly comparable. This along with Rand's own thoughts on the matter are very strong support for the Construct theory, IMHO...

amazinglarry

Crispin's Crispian
11-18-2010, 01:59 PM
I think your position is only correct if you discount Rand's own thoughts on the matter. Without those, the debate is wide open. The only way you can argue the "Real" side after TGS/ToM is if you dismiss Rand as being wrong about the whole thing. But there is no other character in the books who can give a more definitive answer than Rand himself. I go with the Construct side because Rand/LTT is the most reliable source on the matter, and he explains it that way.


I keep an open mind about just about everything. If Rand had explained it so succinctly, I wouldn't be questioning anything.

Can you point out where Rand says the voice was a symptom of his madness created by the suppression of Lews Therin's memories?

Rand integrated with Lews Therin...most people seem to agree on that. He realized that he was both people...that he was the summation of all of his lives. It's also fairly clear in ToM that Rand is both personalities in one now, rather like how a Hero of the Horn lives in T'A'R. I just don't see anything in that indicating that the voice was merely a product of Rand's psychosis.

alleluia_cone
11-18-2010, 02:00 PM
I’m not trying to trivialize this issue but in so far as I’m concerned, I think this entire matter was well resolved several books back and certainly in TGS, where it appeared to me that Brandon was being altogether too obvious about the “the voice” and its source. I don’t have my books handy but there is a chapter in the book when Rand and Min have a discussion about the issue, it might have been directly after the Moridin/Rand merged dream episode, and Min is basically telling him that “the voice” is simply a construct of his own mind. This makes perfect sense given how relieved Rand was to hear Min’s vision about him merging with another man. I almost think that if it wasn’t for that vision Rand would have been forced to confront the truth long ago, which wouldn’t necessarily have been a good thing because it might well have left him insane. In any case, that vision basically gave Rand enough of an excuse to lie to himself and bathe in the delusion and fantasy that the voice in his head was actually distinct from his own mind and not simply a coping mechanism for the fact that he really was Lews Therin Telamon. It's not a pleasant day when you realize you're responsible for killing all your loved ones and yourself, taking a good chunk of the world with you.

Terez
11-18-2010, 02:01 PM
As Semirhage said, usually a merger can not be achieved.
It's not a merger in Rand's case - simply a reintegration of his memories. I love how the real'ers love to name-drop Semirhage as if it means anything. From TGS: 'Rand continued to think of the dead man as a separate individual from himself, regardless of what Semirhage had said.'

Nafro
11-18-2010, 02:01 PM
I keep an open mind about just about everything. If Rand had explained it so succinctly, I wouldn't be questioning anything.

Can you point out where Rand says the voice was a symptom of his madness created by the suppression of Lews Therin's memories?

Rand integrated with Lews Therin...most people seem to agree on that. He realized that he was both people...that he was the summation of all of his lives. It's also fairly clear in ToM that Rand is both personalities in one now, rather like how a Hero of the Horn lives in T'A'R. I just don't see anything in that indicating that the voice was merely a product of Rand's psychosis.

But Rand explicitly states that he is the exact same person, just influenced differently by those around him.

Crispin's Crispian
11-18-2010, 04:31 PM
But Rand explicitly states that he is the exact same person, just influenced differently by those around him.

That's just begging the question. Was the Rand of the Two Rivers the same person as the Age of Legends Lews Therin? Lews Therin hummed or whistled and "thumbed" his ear in the presence of women. Lews Therin could draw. Rand didn't and couldn't do those things, and there were other differences, too. Clearly they had different personalities, precisely because they were raised differently.

Reborn heroes don't have exactly the same personality every time they are spun out, so Rand wasn't the same person as Lews Therin.

The question is whether the voice Rand was hearing was a manifestation of that previous personality, or whether it was built up by the Rand personality in a subconscious attempt to deal with memories of the previous personality.

Jonai
11-18-2010, 04:50 PM
Things that the voice said and did can be real without the voice itself being real.

The only thing I got from Nynaeve's delving was how horribly vulnerable Rand is now. He seems to be able to bring his full ability in the One Power along with the full power of the Dragon soul to bear, but there's an enormous amount of damage. He's buffered against the Taint but the damage is still there. Additionally, you have his stigmata and the True Power usage. Beyond that, you've got Callandor references. If Callandor in anyway makes you more vulnerable, then Rand is doubly in deep sh*t.

The Rand/LTT soul is also a Hero of the Horn. He's spun out in ages where it is not necessary to fight the Dark One, albeit, in those ages he is not the Dragon. Rand's cobbled together. Like a shattered vase glued back together. He's functional, but no less fragile. The Broken Champion is a great name.

Sodas
11-18-2010, 06:23 PM
Lol. Well, I'm not really saying it is all about what you've come to know as the Construct Theory. I'm talking about from my own personal collection of conversations here on Theoryland over the years.

I mean, this was an entirely different debate from when it started. From the FIRST Thread by Callandor on the subject, entitled "Lews Therin is a Construct" - I wouldn't want Terez to get confused.

http://theoryland.yuku.com/reply/45486/t/Lews-Therin-is-a-Construct.html#reply-45486

your hypothesis that Rand created LTT's personality is false. LTT's personality was developed during LTT's lifetime and is somehow occupying a lessor role inside Rand's body.

Uh, no. Rand's personality did develop with his rebirth as it should've. It will continue to develop until he dies. Lews Therin is just an extention of this.

The difference between myself and the Construct Theory had always been that I believed that the Lews Therin personality, memories and all, were originally created in the AOL.

Callandor, and his original Construct Theory, believed that Lews Therin was an extention of Rand created by Rand. It was much more two-dimensional than the current incarnation of the Construct Theory. Construct theory argued both what created LTT and whether or not LTT was a real personality.


Now, of course it evolved.

After TGS, the concept of whether or not LTT was a real personality disappeared from the Construct Theory. It has been boiled down to whether the voice was a creation of Rand's mind or not. From Terez's view point on this, it became about internal versus external.

We're trying to make it simple. Lews Therin's memories are a part of Rand. The memories are subconscious, and Rand personifies everything that is subconscious for him in Lews Therin, including his own suppressed emotions and thoughts. I would be interested in hearing why you think the psychoanalysis is flawed - we have the advantage over shrinks, we actually know what's going on in the patient's head. It shouldn't be too difficult to see the cause and effect, and that the struggle is internal. That's the biggest point of the construct view - seeing that the struggle is internal, rather than external.

Well, turned out that the struggle was indeed external.

She Delved, staying away from the wounds at his side, which were pits of darkness that seemed to try to suck in her energy. She kept her attention on his mind. Where was the-

She stiffened. The Darkness was enormous, covering the entirety of his mind. Thousands upon thousands of the tiny black thorns pricked into his brain, but beneath them was a brilliant white lacing of something. A white radiance, like liquid Power. Light given form and life. She gasped. It coated each of the dark tines, driving into his mind alongside them. What did it mean?

Does that not disprove that it was all a creation of Rand's mind? It so simple and plain I can't believe more don't see that LTT couldn't have been a creation of Rand's own mind. It was the Taint's infestation all along, that lingered upon his brain.

Reintegration was more than just Rand making peace within himself.

It was also him healing a PHYSICAL Darkness upon his mind.
It was also the merger of ALL of LTT's memories and Rand's.

"Only a month earlier," Rand said. "I wouldn't have had the memories to answer you."

And it makes sense really... we had seen Rand reintegrate earlier ... in TAR. After all, only in TAR could Rand not be encumbered by something physical, like a Darkness upon his brain. So whenever Rand entered TAR, he no longer was burdened by that Darkness and he was whole again.

This proves that the Taint caused both the Voice and the inability of Rand to be whole. The reason why the Voice went away was because Rand the Darkness was blocked, not because he mentally came to grips with himself. So both the old and new versions of the Construct Theory are indeed wrong.

Sodas
11-18-2010, 06:34 PM
I’m not trying to trivialize this issue but in so far as I’m concerned, I think this entire matter was well resolved several books back and certainly in TGS, where it appeared to me that Brandon was being altogether too obvious about the “the voice” and its source. I don’t have my books handy but there is a chapter in the book when Rand and Min have a discussion about the issue, it might have been directly after the Moridin/Rand merged dream episode, and Min is basically telling him that “the voice” is simply a construct of his own mind. This makes perfect sense given how relieved Rand was to hear Min’s vision about him merging with another man. I almost think that if it wasn’t for that vision Rand would have been forced to confront the truth long ago, which wouldn’t necessarily have been a good thing because it might well have left him insane. In any case, that vision basically gave Rand enough of an excuse to lie to himself and bathe in the delusion and fantasy that the voice in his head was actually distinct from his own mind and not simply a coping mechanism for the fact that he really was Lews Therin Telamon. It's not a pleasant day when you realize you're responsible for killing all your loved ones and yourself, taking a good chunk of the world with you.

No, where both Rand and Min went wrong was that they didn't know that the Taint left a physical Darkness upon the brain that was causing the voice. The worry was if LTT was real and Rand was merging with him that Rand would be lost, but Min hoped that LTT was fake and therefore Rand wasn't really merging with another man.

The truth that TGS and TOM revealed was that LTT was REAL but ALSO was Rand. They are the same man. So Rand just merged into himself really. So he is still himself. That is why Rand was so thankful at the end of TGS.

alleluia_cone
11-18-2010, 07:42 PM
The whole point is that the "other man" Rand is merging with was never Lews Therin Telamon. The "other man" is, and always was, Moridin. Hence, their mutual dreams, mannerisms, pain, etc. There is no distinct Lews Therin entity. They are the same person. They are same soul. They are the same mind.

Sodas
11-18-2010, 08:05 PM
The whole point is that the "other man" Rand is merging with was never Lews Therin Telamon. The "other man" is, and always was, Moridin. Hence, their mutual dreams, mannerisms, pain, etc.

What I'm trying to say is that Rand's conclusions, that he was either crazy, or had to worry about merging with an LTT that was distinct from himself, were both wrong.

No one is debating that Rand falsely interpreted Min's dream.

But I am saying is that LTT being the same as Rand ended up being the reason why Rand was relieved at finding that he was the same man as the LTT in his head. It's just that Rand didn't realize the Taint had put those dark burrs into his mind and was creating the LTT voice.

Sodas
11-19-2010, 02:56 PM
Bump because seems to me that the Construct Theory has no response.

As far as I'm concerned, the Voice was a creation of the Taint infection upon Rand's brain.

padfoot89
11-19-2010, 04:27 PM
I used to be in the Construct camp but I'm unsure now. There are scenes in ToM where we've been shown some of the madness affecting the Ashaman - Naeff saw Fades, Androl shadows and someone else muttered gibberish. Nynaeve delved Rand and found that his brain was totally covered by it.
So, if LT's voice was not caused by the taint, what did the taint do to Rand ?

Khoram
11-19-2010, 04:41 PM
It makes sense that the voice in Rand's head was caused by the taint. Where else do we see people hearing voices in their heads? Madmen. We have yet to see people who were reincarnated in this Age hear voices from their past lives - even Mat, who has all these memories from past lives, and who speaks the Old Tongue when he's not paying attention, does not hear voices in his head.

As cool as I think it is that Lews Therin's voice was in Rand's head (the actual voice of LTT), I am almost 100% certain that it was a product of Rand's taint-induced mind, not because LTT just decided to talk to him at a certain point in time.

morat'corlm
11-19-2010, 06:42 PM
As Semirhage said, usually a merger can not be achieved.It would seem that Rand's merger worked because he was at least partially in Tel'aran'rhiod at the time.
As far as I'm concerned, the Voice was a creation of the Taint infection upon Rand's brain.a) This is not broadly being contested. The implications, which you present no proof for, are, but this statement is not.

b) Rand's madness was in no way limited to hearing a voice in his head.

Sodas
11-19-2010, 07:12 PM
As far as I'm concerned, the Voice was a creation of the Taint infection upon Rand's brain.

a) This is not broadly being contested.


We believe that LTT is a constructed personality in Rand's head. This personality was subconsciously created to keep Rand from "going insane" over the extraneous memories leaking from his soul's former life as LTT.

So I guess you are admitting that faction has proven to be wrong.

morat'corlm
11-19-2010, 07:43 PM
So I guess you are admitting that faction has proven to be wrong.I don't see a profound difference between those two points of view. That the memory leakage was most likely the result of the taint and the voice a result of the memory leakage does in fact make the voice a result of the taint.

I suppose the word creation is an inappropriate description, if that's what your argument is hinging on. But there is no conflict between the barrier degradation theory and the construct theory.

Sodas
11-19-2010, 09:25 PM
I don't understand how you can miss that they are different.

One states that Rand created LTT.
The other states that the Taint infection created LTT.

This has nothing to do with how Rand got LTT's memories.

Belazamon
11-20-2010, 02:01 AM
Honest to cod, I don't understand how you got everyone going on this again, Sodas. Kudos for the successful dredging, though! I, however, am going to sit this one out until you come up with an argument that a) I haven't seen you use a dozen times before, and b) doesn't hinge on misunderstanding/misstating the arguments of others. And I'm fairly certain, historically speaking, that this means I'm just sitting this one out in general. :)

Bump because seems to me that the Construct Theory has no response.
I envy you, a bit - "I win because you guys give up" really would be an easier world to live in. ;)

Terez
11-20-2010, 08:54 AM
I have Sodas on ignore so I have just been arguing with other people. His arguments are always a little on the obtuse side.

amazinglarry
11-20-2010, 01:29 PM
I don't understand how you can miss that they are different.

One states that Rand created LTT.
The other states that the Taint infection created LTT.

This has nothing to do with how Rand got LTT's memories.

I think the most people would argue that these two ideas are not diametrically opposed or mutually exclusive. I would say that the taint infection caused Rand to create the LTT voice.

amazinglarry

Sodas
11-20-2010, 04:42 PM
Honest to cod, I don't understand how you got everyone going on this again, Sodas. Kudos for the successful dredging, though! I, however, am going to sit this one out until you come up with an argument that a) I haven't seen you use a dozen times before,

MY argument in this thread is about TOM.

Nyneave delving Rand. TOM.
Rand passing the Borderlanders tests. TOM.

So you haven't seen what I'm talking about before unless you magically had TOM years ago.

b) doesn't hinge on misunderstanding/misstating the arguments of others.

I quoted Callandor, Terez and your own faction motto (which you are the Champion of) for some form of reference to what the theory originally stated and what we originally argued.

Our argument was different Bela. I don't think you were as far off as clearly Callandor was.

I think the most people would argue that these two ideas are not diametrically opposed or mutually exclusive. I would say that the taint infection caused Rand to create the LTT voice.

I do. Because without the Taint infection, Rand wouldn't have heard the Voice which the Construct Theory maintained that Rand created internally, like a mental disorder, and then healed through only his self-realization that he was One man. But it turned out to be more than a self-realization. It was a physical healing of something external on Rand's mind.

Hence, Terez and Callandor's Theories were dead wrong.

Construct Theory should now be classified as Debunked as far as I'm concerned. Next subject!

morat'corlm
11-20-2010, 05:48 PM
Because without the Taint infection, Rand wouldn't have heard the Voice which the Construct Theory maintained that Rand created internally, like a mental disorder, and then healed through only his self-realization that he was One man. But it turned out to be more than a self-realization. It was a physical healing of something external on Rand's mind.Perhaps Jordan and Sanderson are simply not subscribers to mind-brain dualism.

amazinglarry
11-20-2010, 08:26 PM
I do. Because without the Taint infection, Rand wouldn't have heard the Voice which the Construct Theory maintained that Rand created internally, like a mental disorder, and then healed through only his self-realization that he was One man. But it turned out to be more than a self-realization. It was a physical healing of something external on Rand's mind.

The fact that Nynaeve was able to pinpoint the physical cause of Taint madness does not mean that LTT's voice was real. I feel that you are trying to equate the black thing on Rand's brain with a physical manifestation of the LTT voice, because once that thing was healed/blocked via the Dragonmount episode, the voice was gone. I would argue that the black thing was like a parasite - it caused Rand to imagine the LTT voice. Yes, the black thing was in fact a real and tangible thing, but that doesn't mean that its effects aren't mental creations of its victim.

The bottom line is that Mr. Sugary Carbonated Beverages is making a leap from "taint madness is caused by a physical, detectable element" to "the effect of this element is real" and I don't believe this is a valid logical jump.

amazinglarry

Sodas
11-20-2010, 10:37 PM
The fact that Nynaeve was able to pinpoint the physical cause of Taint madness does not mean that LTT's voice was real. I feel that you are trying to equate the black thing on Rand's brain with a physical manifestation of the LTT voice, because once that thing was healed/blocked via the Dragonmount episode, the voice was gone.

The Voice was also gone when Rand entered his dream in TGS Ch.14. In TAR, Rand reintegrated with LTT as well, and was One in his talk with Moridin. So there is a 2nd point of reference when it shows that the Voice didn't carry over when Rand's mind was free of the infection.

So it's a fact that the Darkness did create the Voice, directly or indirectly (by making Rand's mind create it), and it was gone as soon as the Darkness was either Healed or left behind in the body. The Voice was not a product of Rand's own self-delusion.

Now, I didn't say that LTT voice was real based upon Nyneanve's point of view. Nyneave's delving is just proof that the Construct Theory was wrong because they said Rand was creating the problem and somehow fixed that problem on Dragonmount.

Two different things.

amazinglarry
11-20-2010, 11:16 PM
The Voice was also gone when Rand entered his dream in TGS Ch.14. In TAR, Rand reintegrated with LTT as well, and was One in his talk with Moridin. So there is a 2nd point of reference when it shows that the Voice didn't carry over when Rand's mind was free of the infection.

I don't think this matters that much to the broader discussion, but for the record I don't think we have enough evidence to prove that Rand and LTT were as fully integrated in that dream as they are as of ToM.

So it's a fact that the Darkness did create the Voice, directly or indirectly (by making Rand's mind create it), and it was gone as soon as the Darkness was either Healed or left behind in the body. The Voice was not a product of Rand's own self-delusion.

Yeah, I agree with this except I'd delete the "directly" option entirely. If the Darkness was a Direct Voice Creator then all Asha'man with taint sickness would hear voices. Instead, we see a variety of mental health issues, indicating that the Darkness is a general Brain Fucker-Upper and that different brains respond differently to its presence.

Now, I didn't say that LTT voice was real based upon Nyneanve's point of view. Nyneave's delving is just proof that the Construct Theory was wrong because they said Rand was creating the problem and somehow fixed that problem on Dragonmount.

I agree with you here too. I'm not arguing Rand created the problem, I'm arguing that the black thing poisoned Rand's mind and Rand's mind responded by creating the voice for LTT. It seems to me like you're hung up on an outdated pre-ToM version of the Construct Theory that was discussed here years ago but is now obsolete. I don't think anyone could reasonably argue that Rand created the voice independently of the black thing.

BTW, "black thing" and "sparkly white thing" aren't cutting it for this discussion and "Darkness" is too general. We need some better WoT-fan terms for these. Suggestions?

amazinglarry

HunterOTS
11-20-2010, 11:27 PM
BTW, "black thing" and "sparkly white thing" aren't cutting it for this discussion and "Darkness" is too general. We need some better WoT-fan terms for these. Suggestions?

amazinglarry

"Black thing" = phenethylamine
"Sparkly white thing" = tryptamine
LTT = lesions on the brain

HunterOTS
11-20-2010, 11:33 PM
BTW that joke is meant for you Larry.

morat'corlm
11-20-2010, 11:35 PM
Ha. In a bizarre ta'veren coincidence, my copy of TOM is directly above PIHKAL and TIHKAL on my bookshelf.

HunterOTS
11-20-2010, 11:37 PM
Ha. As a coincidence, my copy of TOM is directly above PIHKAL and TIHKAL on my bookshelf.

In my experience phenethylamines produce a very dark trip while tryptamines produce a much lighter one. Although I had a series of horrifying psilocybin trips.

jana
11-21-2010, 12:04 AM
Ha. In a bizarre ta'veren coincidence, my copy of TOM is directly above PIHKAL and TIHKAL on my bookshelf.


A Chemical Love Story? Man you people are odd sometimes.

http://nnery.tripod.com/05fire.jpg


Tihkal is really boring.

HunterOTS
11-21-2010, 12:10 AM
A Chemical Love Story? Man you people are odd sometimes.

http://nnery.tripod.com/05fire.jpg


Tihkal is really boring.

Is that guy from drugachusetts? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDpt9iicEow

jana
11-21-2010, 12:15 AM
Is that guy from drugachusetts? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDpt9iicEow

He's a goat farmer in New York and Pihkal was his favorite book.

oh man... I was rummaging for a picture of him with the goats and I found this drawing I made

http://nnery.tripod.com/morand.jpg

I made it before he lost his hand. It's how I pictured their reunion.

HunterOTS
11-21-2010, 12:23 AM
He's a goat farmer in New York and Pihkal was his favorite book.

oh man... I was rummaging for a picture of him with the goats and I found this drawing I made

http://nnery.tripod.com/morand.jpg

I made it before he lost his hand. It's how I pictured their reunion.

Does Rand take a bite after this scene?

jana
11-21-2010, 12:25 AM
Does Rand take a bite after this scene?

He hugs her and crushes her spine.

My favorite part is that I made a yellow dot on her hand for an Aes Sedai ring.


Awwww man she lost her ring to the Finns. *#$#(@&$!

Sodas
11-21-2010, 01:52 AM
I don't think this matters that much to the broader discussion, but for the record I don't think we have enough evidence to prove that Rand and LTT were as fully integrated in that dream as they are as of ToM.

Fully? No, but as close as possible.



"The Great Lord can grant you sanity, you know," Moridin said.
"Your last gift of sanity brought me no comfort," Rand said, surprising himself with the words. That had been Lews Therin's memory, not his own. Yet Lews Therin was gone from his mind. Oddly, Rand felt more stable - somehow - here in this place where all else appeared fluid. The pieces of himself fit together better. Not perfectly, of course, but better than they had in recent memory.

Rand answers Moridin as if he was LTT, with no LTT in his head. That is as close to reintegrated as Rand got, but it did happen during the middle of Rand's mental downturn. And it happened without any broader realization on Rand's part that he was LTT or whatever the Construct theory thinks happened on Dragonmount.


Yeah, I agree with this except I'd delete the "directly" option entirely. If the Darkness was a Direct Voice Creator then all Asha'man with taint sickness would hear voices. Instead, we see a variety of mental health issues, indicating that the Darkness is a general Brain Fucker-Upper and that different brains respond differently to its presence.

Sure, but Rand is not exactly the same as the other Asha'man. He retains the memories of LTT and speaks from the perspective of both Rand and LTT after reintegration. He did this in TAR prior to Dragonmount as well.

It's possible, as Semirhage says, that in the AOL other people heard voices of the real voices of their former incarnations, a time without the presence of the Taint. Perhaps for Rand, this was bound to happen as well.

So it's my thought that mainly the Taint infection was behind the Voice. The personality was already there, but a half-crazed Shadow of himself? That was the Taint.

I mean, I agree at some level Rand created the Voice in his head, but probably at the level of the Soul. Rand's Soul also creates the voice of Rand in his head, so I think the LTT Voice was just as real as Rand's Voice. But it was also half crazed because it was created as a result of the Taint.

But before? Rand didn't have those memories before reintegration. So he clearly got the memories and the personality from whatever was behind the Voice inside his mind. He couldn't have gotten them from a reflection of himself when he admits he didn't have those memories when it was still a Voice in his head. Rand needed to be reintegrated to get those memories. So therefore Rand had to have merged with something outside himself. Something with memories and the personality he now emits. There is no doubt that Rand is both the same and different, so he got more than just memories.

And so that is why LTT had to have been real. Because he has given Rand real memories and perspective from his past life. The Voice may have been a creation of the Taint infection but everything else behind LTT was real.

Belazamon
11-21-2010, 02:37 AM
~Grabs some popcorn and some bite size dark milky ways~
Hey, scoot over, make some room.

Got any Whoppers?

Terez
11-21-2010, 04:31 AM
It seems to me like you're hung up on an outdated pre-ToM version of the Construct Theory that was discussed here years ago but is now obsolete. I don't think anyone could reasonably argue that Rand created the voice independently of the black thing.
The black thing is the taint madness. Rand, influenced by the taint madness, created the voice in an effort to disassociate himself from the memories. Nothing in TOM changed that.

Davian93
11-21-2010, 12:56 PM
The black thing is the taint madness. Rand, influenced by the taint madness, created the voice in an effort to disassociate himself from the memories. Nothing in TOM changed that.

And lots of things reinforced that theory.

Sodas
11-21-2010, 04:20 PM
I agree with you here too. I'm not arguing Rand created the problem, I'm arguing that the black thing poisoned Rand's mind and Rand's mind responded by creating the voice for LTT. It seems to me like you're hung up on an outdated pre-ToM version of the Construct Theory that was discussed here years ago but is now obsolete. I don't think anyone could reasonably argue that Rand created the voice independently of the black thing.


Well, lol, pre-TOM? Like I said in my OP, I just got finished with it a short time ago and hadn't read all the post-TOM debate where people came to agreement to change the Construct Theory to mean just that Rand's mind constructed a persona / voice inside his head.

And then, really, what you are arguing then is really how you define what the Mind is in RJ's world. Is not the Rand's persona also just a Construct of Rand's mind? It's temporary, only to live until he is reborn again as a new incarnation.

I just believe that Rand's "Mind" or more accurately, Soul, is what created everything. Yes, each Taint infection acts differently upon each brain it gets, but in this case it acted upon a Brain that had access to Rand's Dragon Soul. It had a basis of reference to work on that Rand wasn't aware of.

So instead of just creating Shadows or Spiders in the mind, it split the persona of himself from his past life.

If not for the Taint Infection, Rand's persona would have been whole, like he was in TAR in TGS Ch.15. There wouldn't have been an outside Voice from his LTT persona.

That's how we know it was all outside Rand's persona's control. Or at least, we know he wasn't the one who was consciously separating the memories apart. It was unconcious, at least on Rand's persona's part.



But I like TOM. TOM helped us figure out that it was not Rand dissociating himself from his own memories. Rand's consciousness, or the Rand persona had no control over when the Voice, persona or memories of LTT would appear. The Voice and persona was a result of the Taint infection, because it only appeared when Rand's mind was infected by it. So it's clear that Rand did not consciously control the LTT persona. Proving Terez's theory wrong.

Sodas
11-21-2010, 05:28 PM
The black thing is the taint madness. Rand, influenced by the taint madness, created the voice in an effort to disassociate himself from the memories. Nothing in TOM changed that.

A very disingenuous statement. Terez never before TOM believed that it was influenced by anything external.

Just goes to show, when confronted by evidence to the contrary, just say you believed it all along :rolleyes:

morat'corlm
11-21-2010, 06:02 PM
Rand's consciousness, or the Rand persona had no control over when the Voice, persona or memories of LTT would appear. The Voice and persona was a result of the Taint infection, because it only appeared when Rand's mind was infected by it. So it's clear that Rand did not consciously control the LTT persona.Yes, this is the core of construct theory.

Davian93
11-21-2010, 06:07 PM
A very disingenuous statement. Terez never before TOM believed that it was influenced by anything external.

Just goes to show, when confronted by evidence to the contrary, just say you believed it all along :rolleyes:

~gets off ESC couch~

What in the world are you talking about. T has been very consistent on this point for the last 5 years+...the evidence in ToM merely reinforces what she and Callandor (back in the day when he actually posted) have argued from the start.

~sits back down~

amazinglarry
11-21-2010, 06:22 PM
But I like TOM. TOM helped us figure out that it was not Rand dissociating himself from his own memories. Rand's consciousness, or the Rand persona had no control over when the Voice, persona or memories of LTT would appear. The Voice and persona was a result of the Taint infection, because it only appeared when Rand's mind was infected by it. So it's clear that Rand did not consciously control the LTT persona. Proving Terez's theory wrong.

Honestly, I agree with everything you said right up to "proving Terez's theory wrong." I haven't seen her say anything about Rand "consciously controlling the LTT persona" or divorcing the LTT voice from the taint...

Yes, this is the core of construct theory.

Yeah, exactly, I keep feeling that Sodas is arguing for the Construct theory and then tacking on a sentence at the end that says "Hence, LTT is real."

amazinglarry

dominominic
11-21-2010, 06:42 PM
~gets off ESC couch~

What in the world are you talking about. T has been very consistent on this point for the last 5 years+...the evidence in ToM merely reinforces what she and Callandor (back in the day when he actually posted) have argued from the start.

~sits back down~

What is the esc couch? I see it mentioned a lot...

Sodas
11-21-2010, 06:53 PM
~gets off ESC couch~

What in the world are you talking about. T has been very consistent on this point for the last 5 years+...the evidence in ToM merely reinforces what she and Callandor (back in the day when he actually posted) have argued from the start.

~sits back down~

No, not at all, they argued that it was an internal conflict that created the Voice. Not an external one.


http://theoryland.yuku.com/reply/41041/t/Alternate-Theory-for-LTT-voice.html#reply-41041 ]
We're trying to make it simple. Lews Therin's memories are a part of Rand. The memories are subconscious, and Rand personifies everything that is subconscious for him in Lews Therin, including his own suppressed emotions and thoughts. I would be interested in hearing why you think the psychoanalysis is flawed - we have the advantage over shrinks, we actually know what's going on in the patient's head. It shouldn't be too difficult to see the cause and effect, and that the struggle is internal. That's the biggest point of the construct view - seeing that the struggle is internal, rather than external.

So that's just a load of hookey if you believe T is being consistent. Her view has obviously changed.

The whole point of the Construct Theory WAS that it was all some internal conflict. When it was clearly a conflict that required the Taint infection. Stop trying to fool people into believing that these positions are the same. They aren't.

Terez
11-21-2010, 07:03 PM
Honestly, I agree with everything you said right up to "proving Terez's theory wrong." I haven't seen her say anything about Rand "consciously controlling the LTT persona" or divorcing the LTT voice from the taint...
Right, we have always said he created it subconsciously.

Yeah, exactly, I keep feeling that Sodas is arguing for the Construct theory and then tacking on a sentence at the end that says "Hence, LTT is real."

amazinglarry
He does that a lot. The main thing he is missing is that Rand's motives are very important to the creation and maintenance of the voice, regardless of the fact that it wasn't done consciously. That has always been clear enough to constructors, but the reintegration should have made it perfectly clear to everyone else. He had to sink pretty low in order to be able to admit to himself that Lews Therin's crimes were his own.

morat'corlm
11-21-2010, 07:10 PM
No, not at all, they argued that it was an internal conflict that created the Voice. Not an external one.
The contention of yours that Terez's use of "internal" and "external" means that the conflict was strictly mental rather than having any neurological aspect is very nice, and also disclaimed by the very next sentence, which you conveniently lopped off that quotation:
That's the biggest point of the construct view - seeing that the struggle is internal, rather than external. That the struggle is for Rand's identity, and Rand's sanity - not a struggle to keep Lews Therin from "taking over."
Terez means that it is internal to the soul that has been the Dragon in the last two ages, rather than external in that Rand was being besieged or possessed by a separate and wholly individual Lews Therin Telamon.

And it is because it is an internal struggle that it is subconscious, that, as you say,
Rand's consciousness, or the Rand persona had no control over when the Voice, persona or memories of LTT would appear. The Voice and persona was a result of the Taint infection, because it only appeared when Rand's mind was infected by it. So it's clear that Rand did not consciously control the LTT persona., that all Rand could try–unsuccessfully–to do was suppress Lews Therin from his mind.

If Lews Therin were external to Rand, he could be perceived as more than fragments of memories and roiling impulses and a voice whispering nonsense in his ear. This has nothing to do with Rand's brain, or the Taint upon it.

Davian93
11-21-2010, 07:11 PM
No, not at all, they argued that it was an internal conflict that created the Voice. Not an external one.



So that's just a load of hookey if you believe T is being consistent. Her view has obviously changed.

The whole point of the Construct Theory WAS that it was all some internal conflict. When it was clearly a conflict that required the Taint infection. Stop trying to fool people into believing that these positions are the same. They aren't.

The STRUGGLE is internal...nobody said anything about the CAUSE being purely internal.

Sodas
11-21-2010, 07:19 PM
Honestly, I agree with everything you said right up to "proving Terez's theory wrong." I haven't seen her say anything about Rand "consciously controlling the LTT persona"

That's because you need to go back to the debate 2-3 years ago. She said that Rand's creation of LTT was the result of a defense mechanism in Rand's own brain.


http://theoryland.yuku.com/sreply/41029/t/Answer-me-this.html
The creation of the persona was a defense mechanism - a defense against accepting Lews Therin's memories as his own.

So she was wrong. The creation of the persona was the result of the Taint Infection. It could be turned off and on simply by removing it by entering TAR or by blocking it with the Shield of Light. It had nothing to do with Rand creating a defense mechanism for himself.




Yeah, exactly, I keep feeling that Sodas is arguing for the Construct theory and then tacking on a sentence at the end that says "Hence, LTT is real."

That's because where you are coming from, and where I came from many years ago, is basically the same thing. The difference is that you've been lead to believe that the Construct Theory vs the Real Theory is about what creats the voice. It's not.

It's about what was behind the Voice and personality.

The Real vs Construct debate was over whether or not it was internal, ala Terez's comments, and extension of Rand's own mind, almost as if LTT was a imaginary friend.


Lews Therin is also a companion of madness for Rand, someone to share the burden of being the Dragon with, like an imaginary friend inside his own mind.

Or was it because it was the authentic LTT behind the Voice and Personality.

Turned out that the Voice was actually Rand himself. Not an imaginary friend, but Rand's personality in the Age of Legends. So the Voice ended up being based upon the Real LTT, aka Rand.

And that was the core of our debate.

dominominic
11-21-2010, 07:34 PM
Sodas, it's like you have the Nine Bees of Illian in your bonnet here.

Sodas
11-21-2010, 07:38 PM
The contention of yours that Terez's use of "internal" and "external" means that the conflict was strictly mental rather than having any neurological aspect is very nice, and also disclaimed by the very next sentence, which you conveniently lopped off that quotation: Terez means that it is internal to the soul that has been the Dragon in the last two ages, rather than external in that Rand was being besieged or possessed by a separate and wholly individual Lews Therin Telamon.

No such thing.

RJ had already told us there was only One Soul between Lews Therin and Rand. So we already knew it was internal to Rand's Soul. We already knew there couldn't have been a separate and wholly individual Lews Therin Telamon. Rand was LTT. LTT was Rand. They were always the same man.

What Terez was saying is that LTT VOICE was a phony, made up by Rand's self defense mechanism.

It wasn't. The LTT Voice was a real personification of the LTT/Rand's own personality when Rand's brain was infested by the Taint.

Soon as the Taint infection was removed, BOOM, Rand is ONE with himself. There is no stigmata from being merged with a phony version of himself. He acts just normal in TAR as if he is both LTT and Rand.

morat'corlm
11-21-2010, 07:45 PM
RJ had already told us there was only One Soul between Lews Therin and Rand. So we already knew it was internal to Rand's Soul. We already knew there couldn't have been a separate and wholly individual Lews Therin Telamon. Rand was LTT. LTT was Rand. They were always the same man.So why are you arguing with that quotation in particular?What Terez was saying is that LTT VOICE was a phony, made up by Rand's self defense mechanism.

It wasn't. The LTT Voice was a real personification of the LTT/Rand's own personality when Rand's brain was infested by the Taint.What does "a real personification" mean? He acts just normal in TAR as if he is both LTT and Rand.That is not at all clear.

Sodas
11-21-2010, 07:47 PM
The STRUGGLE is internal...nobody said anything about the CAUSE being purely internal.

ROFL. Really? You sure?? You wanna double check that?

What happened is that he realized that he and Lews Therin were the same man, and always had been. It was his denial of this that caused him to construct the persona in his head. The reintegration happened when he finally accepted the truth.

Lol. Seems that Terez said right there that the cause was the denial and implied that the way it was reversed, was by Rand finally accepting the truth.

But that isn't what happened. Rand didn't get healed because he accepted the truth or anything of the like. He didn't suddenly accept that the memories were him and he was healed! The solution was that Rand's Darkness was blocked. His Taint Infection was cured and that caused the reintegration. Terez read the scene all wrong, not surprising at all for someone who didn't even read the book first before reading the quote about LTT and Rand being the same man, and then coming onto Theoryland to brag to everyone.

morat'corlm
11-21-2010, 07:54 PM
There is a difference between ultimate and proximate causes.

And also, this is very much in error:
the Taint infection was healed.

Sodas
11-21-2010, 08:06 PM
That is not at all clear.

I gave you the quote from TGS Ch.15. It is pretty clear that Rand in TAR was almost the same as he was in TOM. Rand doesn't have the Voice of LTT in his head, and he answers Moridin's questions as if he was LTT.

So it's pretty clear that Rand was almost reintegrated in TAR prior to Dragonmount.

morat'corlm
11-21-2010, 09:13 PM
I gave you the quote from TGS Ch.15. It is pretty clear that Rand in TAR was almost the same as he was in TOM.That is not at all clear. He has some parts of the memories, but there is evidence to suggest he is not reintegrated at this point.
“Your last gift of sanity brought me no comfort,” Rand said, surprising himself with the words.What does this sound like?
“You were always ambitious, Mierin.” His voice grated in his ears. “Why do you think I turned away from you? It wasn’t Ilyena, whatever you like to think. You were out of my heart long before ever I met her. Ambition is all there is to you. Power is all you ever wanted. You disgust me!”

She stared at him, both hands pressed hard against her stomach, her dark eyes even larger than usual. “Graendal said . . . ” she began faintly. Swallowing, she began again. “Lews Therin? I love you, Lews Therin. I have always loved you, and I always will. You know that. You must!”

Rand’s face was like rock; he hoped it hid his shock. He had no idea where his words had come from, but it seemed he could remember her. A dim memory, from before. I am not Lews Therin Telamon! “I am Rand al’Thor!” he said harshly.
Rand doesn't have the Voice of LTT in his head, and he answers Moridin's questions as if he was LTT.He answers Moridin's questions as if he had some of the memories of LTT, which is true of him in real life as well at this time, the barrier between one life and the next having partially degraded. He clearly doesn't have all of them, and he clearly doesn't remember enough of what it was like to be Lews Therin to have a good handle on what's happening to him.

Why was the Voice in his head gone during his meeting with Moridin–during which time, I remind you, his brain was still very much under the influence of the Taint–then? Possibly because he was in TAR, with some awareness of what that might mean. Possibly because of the link with Moridin. Possibly for the same reason it disappeared during his first meeting with Cadsuane.

Terez
11-21-2010, 09:36 PM
It's worth pointing out that he wasn't in Tel'aran'rhiod at all. He was in Moridin's dream.

alleluia_cone
11-21-2010, 10:32 PM
If I'm adamant in thinking "the voice" was always a construct in response to Rand's refusal to acknowledge that he was Lews Therin Telamon, it is precisely because of the endless bundles of evidence showing Rand's refusal to acknowledge that he was Lews Therin Telamon, regardless of the taint. This occurs, as shown in the post above depicting his conversation with Lanfear, whenever he remembers anything from his past life inadvertently. He "pretends" these memories aren't his but is increasingly confronted by more and more of them, no doubt exacerbated by being around Lanfear all the time, to the point where the construct is necessary. This has nothing to do with the black goo in his head; it's simply an understandable psychological reaction to all the sudden being filled with the memories of a mad man who killed all his loved ones and realizing that the mad man in question is yourself. The whole point, which I'm sure has been mentioned before, is that Rand already had enough reason to go crazy even if the taint had been eradicated before he was born. He's not jumping at shadows or imagining monsters like the other Asha'man, he's dealing with who he is.

Terez
11-21-2010, 10:34 PM
Right, but the taint probably had something to do with why he started getting the memories in the first place, and it probably also aggravated the mental issues. There wasn't a magical taint-blocking that happened and then he could accept the memories. It was more like, he finally confronted his mental issues, accepted himself, and this led to the taint-blocking.

alleluia_cone
11-21-2010, 10:37 PM
Right, but the taint probably had something to do with why he started getting the memories in the first place, and it probably also aggravated the mental issues. There wasn't a magical taint-blocking that happened and then he could accept the memories. It was more like, he finally confronted his mental issues, accepted himself, and this led to the taint-blocking.

No, you're right, but the actual act of making up an imaginary person who is in fact yourself? That's all Rand.

Squocka
11-21-2010, 10:48 PM
It's worth pointing out that he wasn't in Tel'aran'rhiod at all. He was in Moridin's dream.


I thought he was in some magical place (outside the pattern perhaps) if he was in Moridins dream then Moridin would have been controlling the dream but clearly wasn't.

And it definantly wasn't TAR.

Rand felt different and felt LTT differently as well from what i can remember i will have to reread the passage but it was quite a different feel. And didn't LTT think he had been there once before.

Terez
11-21-2010, 10:51 PM
I thought he was in some magical place (outside the pattern perhaps) if he was in Moridins dream then Moridin would have been controlling the dream but clearly wasn't.
They are linked. Control is not an issue.

Rand felt different and felt LTT differently as well from what i can remember i will have to reread the passage but it was quite a different feel.
Moghedien says the same about Moridin's Ghulview apartment. It doesn't have the feel of Tel'aran'rhiod, so it must be hear Shayol Ghul, which she says is the only other option.

And didn't LTT think he had been there once before.
Rand did. And it wasn't just once.

Sodas
11-22-2010, 01:47 PM
That is not at all clear. He has some parts of the memories, but there is evidence to suggest he is not reintegrated at this point.
What does this sound like?

He answers Moridin's questions as if he had some of the memories of LTT, which is true of him in real life as well at this time, the barrier between one life and the next having partially degraded. He clearly doesn't have all of them, and he clearly doesn't remember enough of what it was like to be Lews Therin to have a good handle on what's happening to him.

Why was the Voice in his head gone during his meeting with Moridin–during which time, I remind you, his brain was still very much under the influence of the Taint–then? Possibly because he was in TAR, with some awareness of what that might mean. Possibly because of the link with Moridin. Possibly for the same reason it disappeared during his first meeting with Cadsuane.

So what? Rand had flashes of being the One, reintigrated persona, and the memories were dim. That is a far cry from where he was at in TGS, in the real world, where he was struggling as he heard LTT's voice more and more and complained that he was slowly becoming more and more like LTT.

"Oddly, Rand felt more stable - somehow - here in this place where all else appeared fluid. The pieces of himself fit together better. Not perfectly, of course, but better than recent memory." - TGS Ch.15

Rand was reintegrated not just for a brief moment, but for the entire conversation with Moridin. And as Rand's conscious stated, "better than recent memory." So at no point in the books prior to this does Rand get as close to reintegration as he does in TGS Ch.15. <period>

And that is just a step behind the reintegrated conscious that what we get in TOM. The only thing that is the same between TGS Ch.15 and Rand post TGS is the Taint infection is not affecting the brain at that time. In TGS Ch.15 that is because the Taint Infection couldn't carry over to the World of Dreams/Moridin's dream. And in TOM, it was because we find out that the Taint Infection was blocked upon Rand's brain by the Light Shield.

So no Taint Infection, no voice and ONE consciousness. Pretty simple to figure out.

Nafro
11-22-2010, 01:55 PM
Oh, well sometimes I feel like I am beating a dead horse, and I don't know why you've been bringing me down...................

morat'corlm
11-22-2010, 07:06 PM
"Oddly, Rand felt more stable - somehow - here in this place where all else appeared fluid. The pieces of himself fit together better. Not perfectly, of course, but better than recent memory." - TGS Ch.15

Rand was reintegrated not just for a brief moment, but for the entire conversation with Moridin.At this point Rand does not view Lews Therin as a part of himself, as the quotation in my previous post shows. If anything, signs point to him being de-integrated more during that moment than he had been in many books.

Sodas
11-24-2010, 03:24 PM
At this point Rand does not view Lews Therin as a part of himself, as the quotation in my previous post shows. If anything, signs point to him being de-integrated more during that moment than he had been in many books.

Whether or not he "views" himself as LTT is silly. He spoke as if he was LTT, just like he does in TOM.

He was indeed more integrated than in any other moment in the books. Your observation is lacking.

Sodas
11-24-2010, 03:27 PM
No, you're right, but the actual act of making up an imaginary person who is in fact yourself? That's all Rand.

No, it was the Taint infection.

Making up an imaginary person who was in fact himself? That's edward norton in fight club.

Its sad that you have to blame Rand for everything.

Terez
11-24-2010, 03:28 PM
Whether or not he "views" himself as LTT is silly. He spoke as if he was LTT, just like he does in TOM.
Just like he did way back in TSR. And TFOH.

Your observation is lacking.
As usual, your reading comprehension skills are lacking. That seems an understatement.

(Yes, I'm bored at the moment.)

Sodas
11-24-2010, 03:38 PM
Just like he did way back in TSR. And TFOH.


As usual, your reading comprehension skills are lacking. That seems an understatement.

(Yes, I'm bored at the moment.)

How's that ignore working for you?

Seem like your lying skills are lacking.

And besides, you shouldn't be lecturing anyone on reading skills when you have none. You seem to think Rand was the One throughout TSR and FoH! Talk about not being able to read! Lol.

Terez
11-24-2010, 03:47 PM
lol. Thanks for reminding me why I usually don't bother to click 'view post'.

amazinglarry
11-24-2010, 04:09 PM
lol. Thanks for reminding me why I usually don't bother to click 'view post'.

Hey, at least Sodas isn't laying out bullet points in which Valan Luca's cape is offered as proof that LTT's voice is real.

BTW, Sodas, I found you a nice new avatar, check it out:

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS6B67teNeodzGpuOOlfirsVfoIKvdPF KXF8iI9Kq58pPHiVDU4xQ

amazinglarry

Sodas
11-24-2010, 05:29 PM
lol. Thanks for reminding me why I usually don't bother to click 'view post'.

Maybe you should also be reminded not to post idiotic comments as well, but that hasn't stopped you before.

Sodas
11-24-2010, 05:32 PM
Hey, at least Sodas isn't laying out bullet points in which Valan Luca's cape is offered as proof that LTT's voice is real.

BTW, Sodas, I found you a nice new avatar, check it out:

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS6B67teNeodzGpuOOlfirsVfoIKvdPF KXF8iI9Kq58pPHiVDU4xQ

amazinglarry

Lol.

Whatever helps you accept the loss of your construct theory.

Afterall, I might not be talking in bullet points, but at least I have a response.

So far, construct theorist have just the argument: nu uh!

In the end, felix owns you construct theorists because he at least has an argument with some sort of reference in the books and doesn't talk down to others when they don't agree. Construct theorists, you guys are more like civil war holdouts, refusing to realize its already over. Lol.

Caveatar
11-24-2010, 06:28 PM
Lol.

Construct theorists, you guys are more like civil war holdouts, refusing to realize its already over. Lol.

WTH? The Civil War is OVER???
Bah. Next you will be saying the danged earth is round or something.

Terez
11-24-2010, 07:04 PM
I missed this post:

I used to be in the Construct camp but I'm unsure now. There are scenes in ToM where we've been shown some of the madness affecting the Ashaman - Naeff saw Fades, Androl shadows and someone else muttered gibberish. Nynaeve delved Rand and found that his brain was totally covered by it.
So, if LT's voice was not caused by the taint, what did the taint do to Rand ?
I imagine that the taint was necessary for Rand to be able to maintain his delusion that Lews Therin was 'real'. It was a pretty complicated illusion, though it's easy to see how Rand was able to convince himself, especially in the beginning. But as time went on, it clearly required some level of madness to maintain. Like, Really Rand, you should be able to see the truth by now. I would say that the turning point was when Lews Therin 'went away' at the end of ACOS, when Cadsuane suggested that Rand was hearing voices because he was a madman. All of a sudden, Rand is no longer hearing voices. He fears being a madman. He continues to insist that Lews Therin is 'real' - and indeed, before it's all over with, he starts dreaming Lews Therin's dreams, because he can't completely suppress the memories - but the reason why Lews Therin 'came back' was because Rand wanted to stab Torval in the heart with his Dragon Scepter. After that, Rand realized (subconsciously, of course) that he needs Lews Therin to rant about murdering dodgy Asha'man so that he can pretend that he doesn't personally want to murder them.

And of course, in a way this was Rand's method of keeping himself sane, and it worked to get him to Dragonmount in one piece. But the taint was necessary for him to maintain the delusion that Lews Therin was another man (who just so happened to live inside his head).

Also interesting is that the balefire incident, and supposedly the genesis of the link with Moridin, happened while Lews Therin was 'away'.

Just like Naeff was convinced that those Fades were real, Rand was convinced that Lews Therin was 'real'. I found it interesting how Androl was partially aware that the reaching shadows were a figment of his imagination, but a part of him was convinced that they were real. I get the feeling that this was meant to be actually true. Perhaps they only represent the increasing powers of the Dark One, or the Pattern falling apart (if the two are not synonymous), but perhaps it's something like Tel'aran'rhiod, a living nightmare that can kill him, despite not being real.

In a sense, of course, Lews Therin was real - but what Rand always missed was that Lews Therin was actually himself. We could argue all day about which came first, but I think it's clear that Rand accepted the truth before his mind was warded from the taint. It was a slow-ish process that started in TGS partly because the illusion was getting more and more difficult to maintain - at least, more difficult to maintain and keep some measure of sanity at the same time - but the events from chapter 15 through to Rand's reunion with Tam certainly contributed to his breaking. After he faced the truth about himself - that he was Lews Therin - he had to face the enormous mountain of guilt that came with that particular truth. Not helpful was the fact that he was only able to face the truth because his own actions had sunk so low as to make the truth more bearable.

Sooner1222
11-24-2010, 07:45 PM
All of Terez's last post
THIS.

Especially after reading ToM, I saw the taint as what aided Rand in believing that it was ok to have a voice from a past life in his head. I believe he was always peripherally aware that the taint was causing this, but it wasn't until Dragonmount that he accepted he was the same person who had murdered his whole family.

Rand has a similar reaction as Naeff after their respective epiphany/healings

Belazamon
11-25-2010, 02:25 AM
So far, construct theorist have just the argument: nu uh!
~sips his drink~

Jonai
11-25-2010, 02:59 AM
Wow, I can't believe this thread is still going on.

GonzoTheGreat
11-25-2010, 05:16 AM
Wow, I can't believe this thread is still going on.Nu uh!

maacaroni
11-25-2010, 05:29 AM
I am in the camp of 'it's deliberately ambigious' and both camps have a serious case of confirmation bias.

So, less nu-uh, and more meh.

GonzoTheGreat
11-25-2010, 05:37 AM
That too, yeah. I do agree that it was kept deliberately ambigious.
I also think that RJ was just plain wrong in thinking the construct idea could make sense, and LTT was actually the real personality from the AoL. But I admit that this view is not sufficiently supported by the actual books themselves.

Sodas
11-26-2010, 12:16 AM
That too, yeah. I do agree that it was kept deliberately ambigious.
I also think that RJ was just plain wrong in thinking the construct idea could make sense, and LTT was actually the real personality from the AoL. But I admit that this view is not sufficiently supported by the actual books themselves.

I said before and I'll say it again,

It's a fantasy.

RJ's world doesn't have to be based upon what happens in real life because that would just be too predictable.

Those that lost sight of that failed the most.

They said Rand suffered from something like PTSD or MPD, created on his own. But it wasn't that. RJ created a way for this series to finish where it started, LTT.


"Are you ever going to give up that affection, Cadsuane Sedai?" Rand asked. Calling me boy? I no longer mind, though it does feel odd. I was four hundred years old on the day I died during the Age of Legends. I suspect that would make you my junior by several decades at the least. I show you respect. Perhaps it would be appropriate for you to return it. If you wish, may call me Rand Sedai. I am, so far as I know, the only male Aes Sedai still alive who was properly raised but who never turned to the Shadow."
Emphasis added: mine.

"I died during the Age of Legends."
"I am, so far as I know, the only male Aes Sedai still alive who was properly raised but who never turned to the Shadow"

Spoken like the real, authentic LTT that lived in the Age of Legends.

"Rand?" Min said softly.
It drew him out of his reverie. "Yes?"
"Is it really as you said. Are you four centuries old?"
"I'm nearly four and a half, I suppose. Do my years in this Age add to those I had before?"

Rand/LTT considers himself to be One life.

How can being both lives be anything else but fantasy?