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padfoot89
11-18-2010, 10:27 AM
Few questions about the Finns

I find it odd that they would try so hard to kill Mat and gang. Wouldn't they know they he is needed to win TG ? Does the outcome of the LB affect them in any way ?

The first time he came through Rhuidean, why did they give him the spear ? Given their future reading abilities, they would have known that he would escape using it.

Can the One Power be used in Finnland ?

If so, I would have thought that Moraine and Lanfear, powerful channelers, would have been able to blast their way out of the place.

Someone like Moridin wouldn't have had to make any sort of bargain with them when he came to get Lanfear, he could have just TP fried the lot.

What are they going to do with Mat's eye ?

Was the eye taking scene realistic ?
Can someone actually take your eyeballs out like that and was Mat's reaction to it something that could happen in the real world ? Scream from the pain for a while but then be able to function without any further damage.

I feel queasy just typing about this. Mat is my favorite character and anything that messes with eyes makes me squeamish. So I didn't like that part of the book at all.

Terez
11-18-2010, 10:29 AM
My impression is that they were never really trying to kill him - they were just feeding off of his emotions, so making him feel like he was about to die would have been a way to make those emotions go crazy. Same with the eye - I doubt they have any real use for it. It was just a way to make him feel pain so that they could eat it - and also a way to take something from him for their price.

I love that bit. I'm not as squeamish concerning eyes as I was before I started wearing contacts.

Landro
11-18-2010, 10:33 AM
Few questions about the Finns

I find it odd that they would try so hard to kill Mat and gang. Wouldn't they know they he is needed to win TG ? Does the outcome of the LB affect them in any way ?

The first time he came through Rhuidean, why did they give him the spear ? Given their future reading abilities, they would have known that he would escape using it.

Can the One Power be used in Finnland ?

If so, I would have thought that Moraine and Lanfear, powerful channelers, would have been able to blast their way out of the place.

Someone like Moridin wouldn't have had to make any sort of bargain with them when he came to get Lanfear, he could have just TP fried the lot.

What are they going to do with Mat's eye ?

Was the eye taking scene realistic ?
Can someone actually take your eyeballs out like that and was Mat's reaction to it something that could happen in the real world ? Scream from the pain for a while but then be able to function without any further damage.

I feel queasy just typing about this. Mat is my favorite character and anything that messes with eyes makes me squeamish. So I didn't like that part of the book at all.

Mat asked for a way out when he went through the doorway in Rhuidean. That's why they gave him the spear.

Rand channeled when he went through the doorway in Tear.

The 'Finn feed off emotions (or maybe it acts a type of drug to them) Taking Mat's eye generated a lot of emotions in Mat to feed off.

I wonder about the part where the 'Finn tried to kill Mat. Or maybe they just wanted to scare him so they could feed off his emotions and expected him to escape.

---edit---
Burn you for beating me to the answers Terez!

Ishara
11-18-2010, 11:33 AM
I find it odd that they would try so hard to kill Mat and gang. Wouldn't they know they he is needed to win TG ? Does the outcome of the LB affect them in any way ?
Um, to be honest, I'm not sure they care. Their world is NOT a Mirror World, and so I'm not at all convinced that the outcome of the Last battle would affect them directly, or at all. The only way I can see it affecting is if the ToG was destroyed, and that would simply negate the ability of travellers to enter into their world. The emotions seem like a drug as ooposed to actual nourishment, so it's not like they'd starve.

The first time he came through Rhuidean, why did they give him the spear ? Given their future reading abilities, they would have known that he would escape using it.
That may have been their loophole to the above question. If he hadn't figured it out, too bad. He had the means, even if he didn't use them. Either way, they're covered. Also, they had to give it to him, he bargained for it.

Can the One Power be used in Finnland ? If so, I would have thought that Moraine and Lanfear, powerful channelers, would have been able to blast their way out of the place.
It can, but it's definitely not supposed to be. Rand used it and the whole place started ringing like a bell (although likely also because of the other ta'veren in the world). So, it works, sure, but who knows what happened after they enetered. maybe going through the doors shocked them both into releasing the Source, and then they were shielded (somehow). I doubt we'll ever know.

Someone like Moridin wouldn't have had to make any sort of bargain with them when he came to get Lanfear, he could have just TP fried the lot.
I have doubts about this. First, this world has it's rules, and it seems as if everyone has to abide by them. Second, the TP comes directly from the DO, and we know for a fact that questions about or touching the DO are super dangerous - but we don't know why or how. I'd say embracing that Source could be lethal.

What are they going to do with Mat's eye ?
Cuddle it. Ew.

Was the eye taking scene realistic ?
Can someone actually take your eyeballs out like that and was Mat's reaction to it something that could happen in the real world ? Scream from the pain for a while but then be able to function without any further damage.
I think it wasn't unrealistic. Adrenaline gets you though a LOT. He was in agony immediately after, but shit needed to get done, and he needed to do it, so he did. Afterwards, when they were out, he thought to himself that it stil hurt. A lot. So, I'd say accurate.

GonzoTheGreat
11-18-2010, 11:46 AM
I think that they knew that the DO can win partial victories. And they may have believed (perhaps for good reason) that it would be better for them to let Mat die because he made a mistake than to let him get out and carry the consequences of that mistake to TG.
So perhaps they decided that if they could catch and eat Mat, then it would be better if they did that than if they let him walk off without a real challenge. This way, he learned that his ashanderei is more than just merely a weapon, which is information that can come in handy for him later on.

Or perhaps they were just making sure he wouldn't have too many fireworks left over, because otherwise he would have used those at the wrong time. Blowing up the Stone of Tear was a good idea; blowing up the Pit of Doom may not work as well.

Green Man 22
11-18-2010, 12:51 PM
Can the One Power be used in Finnland ?

If so, I would have thought that Moraine and Lanfear, powerful channelers, would have been able to blast their way out of the place.

Someone like Moridin wouldn't have had to make any sort of bargain with them when he came to get Lanfear, he could have just TP fried the lot.



We know that channeling works (Rand), but we don't know that he used his channeling directly on the Finns. He was using his flaming sword, which held them at bay as he backed out of the portal.

I think that the same rules for the Finns apply as with the game of snakes and foxes. Fire, music, or iron are the only things that harm or slow the Finns.

Rand's flaming sword might have worked against them (actually kill them like a normal sword) since it was made out of fire, but it also might have failed if the Finns have the ability to block weaves of the power (ie the foxhead medallion). I think it is more likely that the Finns were scared by the fire and the light it produced, rather than fearful of the sword actually hurting them.

If they have ways of blocking the power, that could explain why Moiraine and Lanfear didn't just fry them with the power.

But we really don't know if they tried or not. Maybe Lanfear went in blasting and killed a bunch of them before being captured by Finns with medallions. Maybe Moridin did start frying them until they let him have Lanfear as part of a bargain.

We know Moiraine was simply taken captive. Maybe she could have used the power, but her vision at Rhuidean showed that it wouldn't work to help her escape, so she decided not to.

It would be cool to have some more answers, but I think this arc of the story is over. Too bad, because it was awesome.

Tamyrlin
11-18-2010, 01:07 PM
But it makes sense that the Finns have many ter'angreal...I wonder if they have a dreamspike and other sorts of ter'angreal that prevent people from leaving and entering.

Ishara
11-18-2010, 01:25 PM
Leaving and entering via TAR?

I don't know - TAR deals with the unseen worlds, what is and what could be - partly, right?

Aelfland doesn't - it's not part of that structure, it's seperate entirely, so I've always that that was why you couldn't enter the ToG via TAR. The Tower is present because the structure is in RL, but you can't get in because "in" doesn't exist in a way that TAR recognizes.

Crispin's Crispian
11-18-2010, 01:36 PM
Leaving and entering via TAR?

I don't know - TAR deals with the unseen worlds, what is and what could be - partly, right?

Aelfland doesn't - it's not part of that structure, it's seperate entirely, so I've always that that was why you couldn't enter the ToG via TAR. The Twoer is present because the structure is in RL, but you can't get in because "in" doesn't exist in a way that TAR recognizes.

But Birgitte says you can get in from the Unseen World. It's just almost impossible to get out. Think about how hard it was for them to find a way out in the real world, and how confusing and mind-bending the place seemed. Now imagine the same thing in a dream world where the *finn can manipulate the environment just by thinking about it. If you're not a talented Dreamer, you're dead.

Ishara
11-18-2010, 03:53 PM
Okay - misremembering on my part...

And I agree about how awful that place would be in TAR - except...you just see yourself not there, no?

Crispin's Crispian
11-18-2010, 05:18 PM
Okay - misremembering on my part...

And I agree about how awful that place would be in TAR - except...you just see yourself not there, no?

Well...if you're an expert. If the Finns keep you there and they are stronger than you...

jana
11-18-2010, 05:23 PM
I think it is more likely that the Finns were scared by the fire and the light it produced, rather than fearful of the sword actually hurting them.

If they have ways of blocking the power, that could explain why Moiraine and Lanfear didn't just fry them with the power.

We know Moiraine was simply taken captive. Maybe she could have used the power, but her vision at Rhuidean showed that it wouldn't work to help her escape, so she decided not to.

I agree here.

Even if Moiraine could have used the OP, I doubt she could have escaped. She would have worn out before figuring her way out of there (she would have had to go all the way to the other realm at to the Tear doorway. Plus, she's already used that doorway. Would it even have worked for her?). So she would have fainted from using the Power too long and whichever Finn she hadn't killed would have gotten her. Also, we saw during the rescue that they can just hide anyway. Moiraine doesn't have Mat's luck to find the right paths, so they could have just hidden from her until she fell asleep.

and... Moridin is Moridin. Is Moridin. I don't really question that it was okay for him. And as others pointed out, if he went through the Tear doorway, it was still available on his way back. He probably bargained better than Mat by saying none of them could touch him. (also, see: True Power)

dominominic
11-18-2010, 05:24 PM
What are they gonna do with Mat's eye?

Maybe trade it to someone else who goes in?!

Jokeslayer
11-18-2010, 05:29 PM
What are they gonna do with Mat's eye?

Maybe trade it to someone else who goes in?!

Maybe they'll trade it to Uno.

dominominic
11-18-2010, 05:32 PM
Maybe they'll trade it to Uno.

Shaidar Haran might appreciate it as a novelty either.

GonzoTheGreat
11-19-2010, 04:24 AM
What are they gonna do with Mat's eye?!Grow a clone from it, obviously. And they have access to all Mat's memories too, to make it even more useful.

Jonai
11-19-2010, 04:55 AM
Crush it in a bowl and then lap up the jellied remains to enhance the savor.

jana
11-19-2010, 04:58 AM
Crush it in a bowl and then lap up the jellied remains to enhance the savor.
I wonder if an eyeball fries the same way as an egg.

There's a herd of turkeys that crosses my backyard every morning. Maybe I can compel one of them, follow them back to their cave, and have him bring me one of his unhatched children.

I really hope turkeys lay eggs, because if not I'm going to look weird.

Jonai
11-19-2010, 05:01 AM
You will look weird regardless! And yes they do lay eggs.

jana
11-19-2010, 05:03 AM
You will look weird regardless! And yes they do lay eggs.

You know... I didn't really think this through. What good would it do to test out whether turkey eggs fry the same way as a chicken egg?

I need a turkey eyeball... Good thing I figured this out now instead of months into the planning.


24 hours later: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihh_7ZRqRaI

Try to ignore the heavy breathing. I was very excited and trying to keep vewwy vewwy quiet. I think the part before the tree was the wind though... not my creepy stalker breathing.

Jonai
11-19-2010, 05:12 AM
*blink blink* righhhhtttttt

FelixPax
11-19-2010, 05:37 PM
Can the One Power be used in Finnland ?

Yes. Rand created a "fiery sword in his hands" during his visit to the Aelfinn realm (TDR, Ch.15). Even Moiraine claims to Mat Cauthon she used saidar in Eelfinn's Realm (TofM).


Someone like Moridin wouldn't have had to make any sort of bargain with them when he came to get Lanfear, he could have just TP fried the lot.

No Bargain?
Do you truly believe the Eelfinn lack items similar to a Dreamspike in their realm?
Yes, Moridin had to make a deal.


Where do you think Moridin gained that "pale tan skin" book of prophecies again (TofM - Graendal pov)? Who else possesses and wears "pale leather" skin? The Eelfinn (TSR,Ch.24 & TofM, Ch.53-54 - Mat pov).


Who else likely knew about the Dark Prophecy dealing with the "Daughter of the Night" and the Dragon Reborn, (TGH, Ch.7 'Blood Calls Blood' - Moiraine pov (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/books/tgh/ch7.html))?

Remember Jordan has specifically stated in the past that Lanfear did NOT free Padan Fain from Fal Dara. Thus, Lanfear did not have a Myrddraal write that "Dark Prophecy" upon the side of a prison wall. So who was behind it? Ishamael-Moridin.

Andrac
11-20-2010, 05:18 PM
Do we know that moridin went to rescue lanfear? I know it didn't say that outright, that I can remember anyway, or am I just really bad at reading between the lines? From what moraine was saying I thought they were feeding on lanfear's one power and they drained her of it so quickly that she died. That is what it seemed like to me when I read moraine talking about it. So with her dying then the DO could put her soul in a new body.

Jonai
11-20-2010, 05:23 PM
Well Moiraine mentioned that I man came while she was imprisoned and said she wasn't the one he wanted.