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amazinglarry
11-18-2010, 02:12 PM
We know the following:

1. Lanfear and Moiraine were both held by the Finns, who fed on their channeling ability.

2. Moridin came to get Lanfear out. I guess we're not 100% sure that the rescuer was indeed Moridin, but I think it can be assumed.

3. Lanfear must have died during the rescue, because she was transmigrated into Cyndane.

This leaves a lot of unanswered questions. I'm curious to see what ideas the rest of you have about:

1. How did Moridin enter Finnland? Ghenjei? Tear doorway? Some other method that the 3rd ager's don't know about (using True Power)?

2. How did Lanfear die? Did Moridin kill her and then take off, knowing the DO would transmigrate her? Did he try to rescue her, and she was killed during the escape?

3. How did Moridin get out without getting trapped himself? He doesn't have an ashanderei. If the Finns could block M & L's channeling ability, why not his? Could he get around it by using the TP? Why wasn't he fried for being a super-mega-DF or using the TP inside, as some have suggested he would be?

4. Why didn't Moridin kill Moiraine while he was there?

5. Did Moridin make a bargain to get Lanfear out, or did he somehow find a way around that (again, maybe by attacking the Finns with the TP)? Was her release one of his wishes? If so, what were his other wishes?

Obviously most of these are unanswerable at this point, but there are so many interesting possibilities here that I thought it would be fun to hear thoughts on the whole thing from other theorylanders.

amazinglarry

amazinglarry
11-18-2010, 02:15 PM
One final thought I didn't include in the first post - to me, all signs point towards Moridin using some unknown TP abilities inside Finnland to accomplish Lanfear's rescue.

amazinglarry

Nafro
11-18-2010, 02:16 PM
I have a feeling that the only reason that the Finns were able to "drain" Moiraine is because she asked for three things and gave them the draining option as payment. Remember, they entered through the doorway so they should have been protected. I am sure that the same was true for Lanfear, except she probably forgot to set a price. Then Moridin simply came in, made no deal, saw Lanfear held, and killed her so that her soul could be transmigrated. He then left.

Terez
11-18-2010, 02:17 PM
We know the following:

1. Lanfear and Moiraine were both held by the Finns, who fed on their channeling ability.

2. Moridin came to get Lanfear out. I guess we're not 100% sure that the rescuer was indeed Moridin, but I think it can be assumed.

3. Lanfear must have died during the rescue, because she was transmigrated into Cyndane.
She could have died after. She could be wearing a Mask of Mirrors for all we know.

1. How did Moridin enter Finnland? Ghenjei? Tear doorway? Some other method that the 3rd ager's don't know about (using True Power)?
I'm assuming he entered via Ghenjei and left via the Tear doorway, which he then destroyed. If he'd entered by the Tear doorway, he'd have been in Aelfland, rather than Eelfland.

2. How did Lanfear die? Did Moridin kill her and then take off, knowing the DO would transmigrate her? Did he try to rescue her, and she was killed during the escape?

3. How did Moridin get out without getting trapped himself? He doesn't have an ashanderei. If the Finns could block M & L's channeling ability, why not his? Could he get around it by using the TP? Why wasn't he fried for being a super-mega-DF or using the TP inside, as some have suggested he would be?
See above.

4. Why didn't Moridin kill Moiraine while he was there?
Probably wasn't allowed.

5. Did Moridin make a bargain to get Lanfear out, or did he somehow find a way around that (again, maybe by attacking the Finns with the TP)? Was her release one of his wishes? If so, what were his other wishes?
I'm guessing he made a bargain. But as we saw with Mat, it's not three wishes unless you go through the doorway, which had been destroyed.

amazinglarry
11-18-2010, 02:20 PM
I'm assuming he entered via Ghenjei and left via the Tear doorway, which he then destroyed. If he'd entered by the Tear doorway, he'd have been in Aelfland, rather than Eelfland.

I forgot about the destroyed doorway. Seems like a pretty big clue. Why couldn't he have entered and exited through it, then destroyed it afterwards? No need to go through Ghenjei on the way in.

amazinglarry

Davian93
11-18-2010, 02:20 PM
Then Moridin simply came in, made no deal, saw Lanfear held, and killed her so that her soul could be transmigrated. He then left.

I kinda like this option as a good possibility. It would be a pretty good way to avoid making a deal with them.

Nafro
11-18-2010, 02:22 PM
I kinda like this option as a good possibility. It would be a pretty good way to avoid making a deal with them.

This also explains her diminished Saidar capacity, since the Finns had been draining her.

alleluia_cone
11-18-2010, 02:28 PM
I'm really against the idea that Lanfear ever died. It seems strange to me that she would not reference this fact in the POVs we have of her from WH.

Davian93
11-18-2010, 02:32 PM
I'm really against the idea that Lanfear ever died. It seems strange to me that she would not reference this fact in the POVs we have of her from WH.


Fair point...so Occam's Razor: Why does she have a different body?

1. TP Mask of Mirrors?

2. Enhancement/unenhancement from Finns Bargain?

3. Miscellaneous?

alleluia_cone
11-18-2010, 02:42 PM
Fair point...so Occam's Razor: Why does she have a different body?

1. TP Mask of Mirrors?

2. Enhancement/unenhancement from Finns Bargain?

3. Miscellaneous?

I'm well and truly puzzled on a lot of things about her appearance.

In regard to the True Power Mask of Mirrors, we would first have to establish whether Moridin can just permanently have this settled on her. The other issue is why she appears the way she does in the dream at the end of ToM. Can Moridin have a True Power Mask of Mirrors put on Lanfear while she is in his dream? Why would he bother? Even if he was hiding her identity from the other Chosen why would he continue the charade when they are not around? Is it some form of punishment? After all, the Cyndane body is close to being diametrically opposed to everything the Lanfear body was apart from the size of the breasts.

The second option just doesn't seem to be the case. There really have been no indicators at all that Lanfear was enhanced in any way. This idea originally came along because of the strange power loss but now that we know how that happened I think the matter should be dropped entirely.

As for a third, alternative, explanation, I don't really have one. We have so little to go on.

Davian93
11-18-2010, 02:48 PM
I agree completely on the enhancement one...I just threw it out there because of its previous popularity.

I dont like any of those options. Perhaps she was killed and transmigrated by Moridin/DO AFTER her rescue in an attempt to bring her back to her former strength (Moridin thinking it was her body not her soul that was drained?)

No idea though.

Enheduanna
11-18-2010, 02:53 PM
Fair point...so Occam's Razor: Why does she have a different body?

1. TP Mask of Mirrors?

2. Enhancement/unenhancement from Finns Bargain?

3. Miscellaneous?

I think she had been through the doorway before, in the AOL (since the Aiel had it in their wagons), and her wishes were for unsurpassable beauty, to be strongest in Saidar and to have the love of LTT. He did love her for a time, but since it wasn't "meant to be" their relationship ended. When she went through a 2nd time, the agreement was broken and they took away what they had given her before. Severe shock can turn a persons hair silver practically overnight, I've seen it happen.:eek:

Davian93
11-18-2010, 02:58 PM
I think she had been through the doorway before, in the AOL (since the Aiel had it in their wagons), and her wishes were for unsurpassable beauty, to be strongest in Saidar and to have the love of LTT. He did love her for a time, but since it wasn't "meant to be" their relationship ended. When she went through a 2nd time, the agreement was broken and they took away what they had given her before. Severe shock can turn a persons hair silver practically overnight, I've seen it happen.:eek:

That falls under Option 2: Enhancement. It was a long-held theory on her power loss prior to ToM (and prior to us knowing about draining).

The issue with it is it would have had to happen very young as LTT and Mierin were lovers very early on in life (when they were just learning about channeling).

alleluia_cone
11-18-2010, 03:21 PM
I understand why the idea that she died is popular and I wouldn't be totally shocked if it was true because it really would make for the simplest scenario. She was in the Tower of Ghenjei for a short time during which she was drained of power and then she was killed. That would answer her current predicament but it still leaves me with many, many questions. I just hope some of them will be explained but given that there is only one book left I kind of doubt it.

Question(s) 1:

Why were Moiraine and Lanfear apparently taken captive so easily? It seems Rand managed to fight off the Finns but Lanfear and Moiraine couldn't? One of them with a very strong angreal, the other, the strongest woman ever, and they were just held captive? Think about how long Birgitte eluded capture.

Question(s) 2:

If Lanfear died, is this because Moridin failed in the escape or, the more likely option, because he didn't bother trading and just killed her? And if this is the case, is this just because Moridin didn't care what she looked like? Moreover, why was Moridin able to seemingly escape so easily if he did in fact kill the Finns' most prized possession? And if he could escape so easily, why bother killing Lanfear in the first place unless . . . it was just a form of punishment?

Question(s) 3:

Assuming that Lanfear did die, why doesn't she reference this? Both in her POVs during WH and when talking to Rand in ToM? Maybe I make too much about this fact but isn't it odd that when Rand tells her "that she died," instead of Lanfear saying "Yes, but I was brought back and can't die" or something to that effect, she just says she wishes she was dead?

Question(s) 4:

This is the biggie: Why has this been kept mysterious even now? Why does Moridin hide Lanfear's identity from the other Forsaken? What purpose could be served by not confirming that Lanfear was killed in the Tower of Ghenjei? Why is her appearance not explained yet? If the explanation was so blase and simple why still insist on keeping it under wraps?


Like I said, I'm probably making too much out of this whole issue but something seems . . . off . . . about what happened and there really needs to be an adequate explanation.

padfoot89
11-18-2010, 03:26 PM
I find it impressive that Moridin could just waltz in to get her out while our gang had to go through all sorts of trouble to get Moiraine out.

Enheduanna
11-18-2010, 03:26 PM
That falls under Option 2: Enhancement. It was a long-held theory on her power loss prior to ToM (and prior to us knowing about draining).

The issue with it is it would have had to happen very young as LTT and Mierin were lovers very early on in life (when they were just learning about channeling).

It's the sort of thing a very young person would wish for, however. I'd assumed the doorway was housed in the Hall of the Servants, where they went to learn how to channel. She seems like the sort of person that has to do the forbidden things just to prove herself better than anyone else. Who knows, LTT may have gone in there too at some time.

alleluia_cone
11-18-2010, 03:34 PM
The "enhancement theory" really has to be put to rest. There are so many reasons why it is unlikely. For one, it would have to involve a young Lanfear who somehow got access to the Finn realm despite not having much influence and then managing to switch identities after she got back. Then we'd have to figure out what she traded to get so much power and such great looks. Then we'd have to figure out what her third wish was. The whole thing is just way too messy. Does anyone envision this kind of explanation coming in the next book?

Edit: LOL at my post count number.

Enheduanna
11-18-2010, 03:51 PM
The "enhancement theory" really has to be put to rest. There are so many reasons why it is unlikely. For one, it would have to involve a young Lanfear who somehow got access to the Finn realm despite not having much influence and then managing to switch identities after she got back. Then we'd have to figure out what she traded to get so much power and such great looks. Then we'd have to figure out what her third wish was. The whole thing is just way too messy. Does anyone envision this kind of explanation coming in the next book?

Edit: LOL at my post count number.

Quick, you'd better make another post before people start calling you Great Lord. :D

Actually, her abilities in TAR probably weren't so remarkable in the AOL. The ring TerAngreal was referred to as a teaching tool by Moghedien, so presumably all channelers had access to TAR. She was insatiably ambitious, so she would take ANY advantage she could, ie seducing a teacher into letting her through the doorway. Of course all of this is speculation, and may never get an answer.

amazinglarry
11-18-2010, 04:04 PM
I find it impressive that Moridin could just waltz in to get her out while our gang had to go through all sorts of trouble to get Moiraine out.

Yeah, that is exactly what led me to start thinking about it and start this thread in the first place...and it's also what leads me to believe that TP use was involved. The TP is the only edge Moridin has over Lanfear in dealing with the Finns (unless they are somehow able to block saidar but not saidin...seems pretty unlikely).

amazinglarry

Nafro
11-18-2010, 04:07 PM
Yeah, that is exactly what led me to start thinking about it and start this thread in the first place...and it's also what leads me to believe that TP use was involved. The TP is the only edge Moridin has over Lanfear in dealing with the Finns (unless they are somehow able to block saidar but not saidin...seems pretty unlikely).

amazinglarry

He went in through the doorway, thus granting him protection. He killed her, and thus did not have to set a price. Get in, get out, get on with Tarmon Gaidon.

amazinglarry
11-18-2010, 04:20 PM
He went in through the doorway, thus granting him protection. He killed her, and thus did not have to set a price. Get in, get out, get on with Tarmon Gaidon.

I would think that waltzing in and killing the woman they're savoring would be against the rules, thereby nullifying the treaty that gives him protection. Also, if he went in via the Tear doorway he would have started out on the Aelfinn side. He would've had to ditch (or coerce) his guide in order to get to the Eelfinn side where Lanfear and Moiraine were held. These are all challenges that could have required TP usage to overcome.

amazinglarry

Nafro
11-18-2010, 04:22 PM
I would think that waltzing in and killing the woman they're savoring would be against the rules, thereby nullifying the treaty that gives him protection. Also, if he went in via the Tear doorway he would have started out on the Aelfinn side. He would've had to ditch (or coerce) his guide in order to get to the Eelfinn side where Lanfear and Moiraine were held. These are all challenges that could have required TP usage to overcome.

amazinglarry

Good point. Maybe since questions on the shadow are dangerous, they cower from Moridin and he gets free reign. I don't know. I just hope we find out.

amazinglarry
11-18-2010, 04:34 PM
Good point. Maybe since questions on the shadow are dangerous, they cower from Moridin and he gets free reign. I don't know. I just hope we find out.

I bet we will get at least a little more information. Lanfear's role is one of the biggest remaining mysteries in the series. I think we'll be seeing substantially more of her in AMoL than we've seen in books 6-13...

amazinglarry

Crispin's Crispian
11-18-2010, 04:44 PM
The "enhancement theory" really has to be put to rest. There are so many reasons why it is unlikely. For one, it would have to involve a young Lanfear who somehow got access to the Finn realm despite not having much influence and then managing to switch identities after she got back. Then we'd have to figure out what she traded to get so much power and such great looks. Then we'd have to figure out what her third wish was. The whole thing is just way too messy. Does anyone envision this kind of explanation coming in the next book?

Edit: LOL at my post count number.
It was a good theory while it lasted. There were one or two problems, I'll agree, but I thought it was solid. (And I would... =))

As the faction champion and (what I believe to be) theory writer, I'm willing to concede its death in light of the new evidence.

I will unequivocally state that I believe my theory was better than the real explanation. Power-sucking Eel'finn was such a let-down. There had better be a great plot reason in the final book.

gord
11-18-2010, 04:52 PM
I don't see why everyone seems to think the power draining couldn't have killed Lanfear. They said it was the speed of the power draining that killed her, not the amount. Maybe draining someone at a slow rate will allow you to drain all the channeling ability from them over time, while draining them at a faster rate will kill them after draining only a small amount. You can lose a lot more blood without fainting if you lose it slowly (for example when giving blood) then if you lose it suddenly (from a nasty cut for example). This would explain how Lanfear was killed by being drained to quickly, but still had much of her channeling ability remaining. This was the first thing that came to mind when I read ToM, I'm surprised no one has mentioned it yet.

Crispin's Crispian
11-18-2010, 04:56 PM
I don't see why everyone seems to think the power draining couldn't have killed Lanfear. They said it was the speed of the power draining that killed her, not the amount. Maybe draining someone at a slow rate will allow you to drain all the channeling ability from them over time, while draining them at a faster rate will kill them after draining only a small amount. You can lose a lot more blood without fainting if you lose it slowly (for example when giving blood) then if you lose it suddenly (from a nasty cut for example). This would explain how Lanfear was killed by being drained to quickly, but still had much of her channeling ability remaining. This was the first thing that came to mind when I read ToM, I'm surprised no one has mentioned it yet.
You're right. We can't discount this possibility, even if Moiraine seemed dubious.

alleluia_cone
11-18-2010, 04:56 PM
It really wouldn't make sense if Ishmael had free reign because then were would be no purpose to killing Lanfear other than perhaps to punish her by outfitting her in a body that seems to mock the very essence of what she used to look like.

All we know of the trip is that someone, presumably Ishmael, came to the Tower of Ghenjei looking for a woman, presumably Lanfear. From the way Moiraine tells it, it does seem that the mystery stranger was being cooperative with the Finns. This is why I assumed a bargain was made.

Unfortunately, that still leaves the mystery of Lanfear's new body and the best I've seen theorized on this point is that this involves the True Power and utilization of a kind of Mask of Mirrors.

As a side note, was anyone else a little surprised at how truly few big reveals were contained in ToM? I know the best should probably be reserved for the final book but I was staggered at how little we found out.

We still don't know for certain what Demandred is up to. The solution to the Seanchan hasn't presented itself. Lanfear remains a complete mystery. Moghedien was not even shown. Alanna remains a wild card. The purpose of Fain is still up in the air. The Black Tower conclusion remains elusive. And on and on.

All we got was:


Mesaana = Danelle (Obvious, plus no good explanation on how she evaded the oath rod).
Asmodean's killer = Graendal (Obvious, plus, revealed poorly).
Borderlanders mystery = Slapping Rand (Um...yeah, a little bit underwhelming).
Tower of Ghenjei rescue = Completely as expected

jana
11-18-2010, 05:01 PM
I don't see why everyone seems to think the power draining couldn't have killed Lanfear.

There are too many holes for it, imo. Your explanation is good, but I find it hard (impossible?) to believe that Moridin would go through the trouble of entering Finnland only to find out that Lanfear is already dead. He would know via the Dark One that she's died and is back alive.

alleluia_cone
11-18-2010, 05:05 PM
This would explain how Lanfear was killed by being drained to quickly, but still had much of her channeling ability remaining. This was the first thing that came to mind when I read ToM, I'm surprised no one has mentioned it yet.

I've no issue with this idea as a possibility but I still doubt it.

I kind of have a hard time seeing the Finns as so incompetent as to literally waste away their biggest prize.

There is also that shattered doorway in Tear which would go unexplained; I really doubt the Finns did that either.

And just that Moiraine herself doubts it does indeed cast a shadow over the possibility.

That said, I'm still trying to puzzle over why if Lanfear died this has not been made clear yet and why she was killed in the first place. I'm not really comfortable with any of the explanations that have been given so far; none of them really gel in my opinion.

Would it be too much to ask to get a flashback POV of either Moiraine or Lanfear the second they went through that doorway? How great would a flashback POV of Lanfear be? Especially if the POV shows her making her wishes, hearing Moiraine's wishes, and then seeing through her eyes how she was either saved or killed.

dominominic
11-18-2010, 05:29 PM
Would it be too much to ask to get a flashback POV of either Moiraine or Lanfear the second they went through that doorway? How great would a flashback POV of Lanfear be? Especially if the POV shows her making her wishes, hearing Moiraine's wishes, and then seeing through her eyes how she was either saved or killed.

You really just want a Lanfear outrigger, don't you? ;)

alleluia_cone
11-18-2010, 05:45 PM
You really just want a Lanfear outrigger, don't you? ;)

The answer is yes but I still think the general fan community would like more POVs from her given how crucial of a character she is.

As it is, it would be nice to have a flashback of when she opened the Bore and her experiences in the Tower of Ghenjei.

I don't know, what do people think?

Would you prefer my Lanfear suggestions or another scene detailing Elayne and her midwife, Elayne being carried up a tower on a portable bed, Elayne taking yet another throne, Elayne politicking with nobles, Elayne and . . .

Caveatar
11-18-2010, 05:52 PM
The answer is yes but I still think the general fan community would like more POVs from her given how crucial of a character she is.

As it is, it would be nice to have a flashback of when she opened the Bore and her experiences in the Tower of Ghenjei.

I don't know, what do people think?

Would you prefer my Lanfear suggestions or another scene detailing Elayne and her midwife, Elayne being carried up a tower on a portable bed, Elayne taking yet another throne, Elayne politicking with nobles, Elayne and . . .

I didn't mind those Elayne scenes all that much but I agree that Lanfear as Lanfear or as Meiren sounds promising.

She seems a better person in some ways than most of the 'so-called Aes Sedai' to me. More interesting for sure.

alleluia_cone
11-18-2010, 06:07 PM
As it is, I'm a little puzzled why some Forsaken get more POVs than others. Look, I like Graendal, a lot, but is she really the most fascinating Forsaken?

Does this (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=7136#poststop) distribution make sense to people?

For the life of me I don't why Jordan outlined it like this.

dominominic
11-18-2010, 06:11 PM
The answer is yes but I still think the general fan community would like more POVs from her given how crucial of a character she is.

As it is, it would be nice to have a flashback of when she opened the Bore and her experiences in the Tower of Ghenjei.

I don't know, what do people think?

Would you prefer my Lanfear suggestions or another scene detailing Elayne and her midwife, Elayne being carried up a tower on a portable bed, Elayne taking yet another throne, Elayne politicking with nobles, Elayne and . . .

I would view scenes like those as dead weight considering there's only one book left. I'd feel a bit short changed if, for instance, Lanfear thought back on the Opening and suddenly worked out the Closing, so to speak.

Although I would welcome more detailed information in the Encyclopaedia. I really hope that sees the light of day.

Spasmodean
11-18-2010, 08:23 PM
Question(s) 1:

Why were Moiraine and Lanfear apparently taken captive so easily? It seems Rand managed to fight off the Finns but Lanfear and Moiraine couldn't? One of them with a very strong angreal, the other, the strongest woman ever, and they were just held captive? Think about how long Birgitte eluded capture.

Moiraine had just knocked the Angreal out of Lanfears hands as they went through the doorway.

This was enough to melt the doorway at the docks, so who knows what effect it may have had on the 2 channelers.

They could have both been knocked unconscious from the blast/power surge and woke up as captives.

Spasmodean
11-18-2010, 08:28 PM
As it is, I'm a little puzzled why some Forsaken get more POVs than others. Look, I like Graendal, a lot, but is she really the most fascinating Forsaken?

Does this (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=7136#poststop) distribution make sense to people?

For the life of me I don't why Jordan outlined it like this.

Because Graendal, being secretive as she is, is also the one with the least mystery surrounding her (Asmo not included).

Because she seems to scheme as hard against the other Chosen as against the forces of Light, she's the best literary device to use when having Forsaken tea parties so as not to give too much of the game away.

Kimon
11-18-2010, 08:28 PM
There are too many holes for it, imo. Your explanation is good, but I find it hard (impossible?) to believe that Moridin would go through the trouble of entering Finnland only to find out that Lanfear is already dead. He would know via the Dark One that she's died and is back alive.

Maybe he needed to recover her body from Finnland so that she could be recycled, and without doing that, she would have been too far away for reincarnation.

The Immortal One
11-19-2010, 11:32 AM
Question(s) 4:

This is the biggie: Why has this been kept mysterious even now? Why does Moridin hide Lanfear's identity from the other Forsaken? What purpose could be served by not confirming that Lanfear was killed in the Tower of Ghenjei? Why is her appearance not explained yet? If the explanation was so blase and simple why still insist on keeping it under wraps?
If you remember, Moridin, Osan'gar and Aran'gar never used their names from their previous incarnations. Osan'gar and Aran'gar, at least, seem to have been forbidden from using them.
Everone simply knows who they used to be because they acted andspoke like they used to be - there is nobody else they could be; just like all the Forsaken are convinced that Cyndane used to be Lanfear.
The only reason the Forsaken doubted she used to Lanfear is that she is weaker than she used to be. And that has been explained.


Maybe he needed to recover her body from Finnland so that she could be recycled, and without doing that, she would have been too far away for reincarnation.
I doubt that Moridin or the Dark One would need her physical body.

Though you do bring up a good point: Would the Dark One have been able to transmigrate her if she had died in Finnland. Does the Dark One have any power or influence whatsoever in that world?

Green Man 22
11-19-2010, 12:29 PM
I kind of have a hard time seeing the Finns as so incompetent as to literally waste away their biggest prize.

I actually thought this made perfect sense. The Finns are like sensory junkies. Most addicts behave completely irrationally, and most of them who get a huge score of their vice use it very quickly. If the Finns were honest with Moiraine about draining Lanfear too quickly, that experience may have actually saved her life. The Finns may have slowed down draining her to make sure the same thing didn't happen.

Two other things:

1. If we think that Moridin was responsible for destorying the Aelfinn door, he either did it because he was angry (similar to sqeezing the dude on the roof without thinking about it) or he wanted to prevent others from using the doorway.

I just can't understand why he would want to stop others from using it, so I figured he blew it up out of anger.

2. The enhancement theory - pardon my ignorance, you may have already discussed this, but ...

What if Lanfear went to the Finns after she had broken up with LTT and requested 1) enhanced power, 2)unsurpassed beauty, 3) Ilyena's death or the end of LTT and Ilyena's relationship?

Again, this theory has to be out if you really believe that the Finns told Moiraine the truth about draining Lanfear.

If they were lying, they could have stripped Lanfear of her "gifts" in return for releasing her to Moridin. He may have come to get her and used her sacrifice as a way to bargain them both out (similar to Mat's sacrifice bargaining multiple people a way out). Then when he left, he could have realized he should have asked for something else and destroyed the doorway out of anger.

alleluia_cone
11-19-2010, 12:54 PM
2. The enhancement theory - pardon my ignorance, you may have already discussed this, but ...

What if Lanfear went to the Finns after she had broken up with LTT and requested 1) enhanced power, 2)unsurpassed beauty, 3) Ilyena's death or the end of LTT and Ilyena's relationship?

I don't understand why people persist with the idea that she was "enhanced." Rand recognizes her the way she is as Lanfear. If her looks were ever modified it had to have occurred before she ever met Lews Therin Telamon. Indeed, it had to have occurred before she was known as "Mierin Eronaile" because she would have had to change her identity at some point. The same can be applied to her power level unless the boost was so insignificant as to not make a difference, in which case, it wouldn't make sense to even ask for it. The idea that she was "enhanced" presupposes the idea that Mierin Eronaile showed up out of the blue as this impossibly beautiful woman with unmatched ability in the One Power, and most crucially, with no past. And all this would have had to come to fruition before Mierin even met Lews Therin Telamon, which is cutting things close because they learned about the One Power together. She would have had to go to the Finns before she was even a teenager. As I said before, this theory has an abundance of complications which basically renders it as the most unlikely of possibilities.

Jonai
11-19-2010, 01:58 PM
You really just want a Lanfear outrigger, don't you? ;)

They're not the only one....lannnnnnnniiiiiieeeeeeeee.

The enhancement theory sounds silly. While never earning a third name, she was a respected researcher at the Collam Daan, and she looked pretty much how she did at death when she met LTT, just a lot younger.

Seeker
11-19-2010, 02:53 PM
Assuming that Lanfear did die, why doesn't she reference this? Both in her POVs during WH and when talking to Rand in ToM? Maybe I make too much about this fact but isn't it odd that when Rand tells her "that she died," instead of Lanfear saying "Yes, but I was brought back and can't die" or something to that effect, she just says she wishes she was dead?

There's a rather flawed argument that goes a little something like this. "If something important happens to a character it must later be referenced in that character's point of view."

The reason this argument is flawed is because writers tend to avoid writing the obvious. Or at least, they avoid mentioning the things they BELIEVE to be obvious. In the case of Cyndane, we already have two examples of forsaken who died and got stuffed into new bodies before her arrival.

So the answer to how Lanfear got a new body seems so obvious that RJ probably didn't think it needed to be stated. She died. Just like the others.

HOW she died is an interesting question.

Here's an easy bit of speculation. Moridin shows up to get Lanfear out.

The Finns won't release her without a deal.

Moridin says "Okay, keep her," returns to Shayol Ghul and says "Plan B, Great Lord."

The Dark One rips Lanfear's soul out of her body, leading to death or at least a catatonic state. The Finns, not knowing any better, attribute this to draining her too fast and there you have it.

Even if the Lanfear body is still alive, with the soul gone there is nothing for the Finns to drain so they dispose of it.

alleluia_cone
11-19-2010, 04:19 PM
There's a rather flawed argument that goes a little something like this. "If something important happens to a character it must later be referenced in that character's point of view."

It has more to do with the fact that she was in an obvious position to either think about how she had been killed or mention it in answer to a question which would logically provoke that response. I don't presume to argue that she would always be thinking about being killed or that she would mention it at all times.

The reason this argument is flawed is because writers tend to avoid writing the obvious. Or at least, they avoid mentioning the things they BELIEVE to be obvious. In the case of Cyndane, we already have two examples of forsaken who died and got stuffed into new bodies before her arrival.

They also tend to avoid writing that which they don't want revealed yet.

So the answer to how Lanfear got a new body seems so obvious that RJ probably didn't think it needed to be stated. She died. Just like the others.

My working assumption is that she did die although I hardly find this to be quite the certainty you make it out to be. Explaining how she died requires just as convoluted and long winded of a diatribe as explaining why she didn't die.

Here's an easy bit of speculation. Moridin shows up to get Lanfear out.

The Finns won't release her without a deal.

Moridin says "Okay, keep her," returns to Shayol Ghul and says "Plan B, Great Lord."

The Dark One rips Lanfear's soul out of her body, leading to death or at least a catatonic state. The Finns, not knowing any better, attribute this to draining her too fast and there you have it.

Even if the Lanfear body is still alive, with the soul gone there is nothing for the Finns to drain so they dispose of it.

I like this explanation myself, presuming, of course, that the Dark One is capable of simply ripping a living soul out of its body, which could be the case as to the Chosen because they are tied to him

What troubles me is the part I have bolded above. Would Moridin be naive enough to think the Finns would simply release her? The concept of him bothering to enter the Tower of Ghenjei, failing to get Lanfear out once there, then simply walking away, the Finns themselves letting him do this, requires quite the stretch of credibility. And more than that, why would the Dark One bother? If it was this simple to bring back Lanfear, why not kill her immediately? It's not like he cares what she looks like.

I like the idea put forth by Terez that Moridin went through the twisted doorway in Tear and then destroyed it on his way out. This really would provide the perfect explanation for what happened to Callandor's wards. Hell, at this point, I'm even willing to consider the possibility that the Callandor that Rand has isn't the real one. But I digress.

The impression I get from Moiraine in ToM is that the mystery man and the Finns were cooperating, so much so, that they bothered showing him their prisoners. Which is to say, I think Moridin accomplished whatever he set out to do in the Tower of Ghenjei and did in fact trade with the Finns. Which is why I have such a hard time just accepting that Lanfear was killed.

padfoot89
11-19-2010, 04:32 PM
Maybe Moridin told them to kill her without draining her completely. For all we know, he might have told them to do it painfully so that they could enjoy all the emotions.