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shepherd79
11-18-2010, 08:26 PM
given that Jain seems to be one of the most famous and heroic people of the current age, does anybody else think he might come back in the final book when Mat blows the horn?

amazinglarry
11-18-2010, 08:37 PM
given that Jain seems to be one of the most famous and heroic people of the current age, does anybody else think he might come back in the final book when Mat blows the horn?

Well, he doesn't have a cape, so I doubt it.

:D

amazinglarry

Enheduanna
11-19-2010, 08:41 PM
given that Jain seems to be one of the most famous and heroic people of the current age, does anybody else think he might come back in the final book when Mat blows the horn?

Being tied to the Horn is based on self-sacrifice IIRC, Jain will come to the Horn, and so will Verin.

Jonai
11-20-2010, 03:37 AM
Not not everyone gets bound to the Wheel. They both might answer the call but hard to say.

The Mardy Asha'man
11-20-2010, 06:04 AM
I hadn't really thought about it but it seems to make sense he would be tied to the wheel after all he was a heroic old sod. That would be a funny conversation with mat after he blew the horn at TG if he is bound to the wheel now.

Jokeslayer
11-20-2010, 06:14 AM
Not all heroes are Heroes

The Mardy Asha'man
11-20-2010, 07:25 PM
Not all heroes are Heroes

True enough but he did sacrifice himself to get Moiraine and the others out of ToG and TG cant be won without 2 of those 3 for sure so I think he quilifies for Hero Status

subwoofer
11-22-2010, 10:15 AM
Simply?-Yes. Will find the quote and edit, but bottom line Jain died clean. As epic an adventure as any.

Daekyras
11-22-2010, 10:19 AM
More importantly, and way, way cooler, will Ingtar answer the call of the Horn? of Valere.

Caveatar
11-22-2010, 10:24 AM
given that Jain seems to be one of the most famous and heroic people of the current age, does anybody else think he might come back in the final book when Mat blows the horn?

Old Jain DID die to save the current HornSounder Himself. (As well as a couple of others.)
Maybe traveling with Mat so long gave him some sort of attachment.

Edynol
11-22-2010, 10:41 AM
I would like to see Ingtar and Verin again, but I don't think they'd qualify. Ingtar did what he did for self redemption(Not saying he didn't do it for everyone else, but I think it was mainly for redemption). So I'm not sure if his deed would be found worthy.

Verin sacraficed herself and don't think she was seeking redemption because she was doing what she saw as right the whole time, but she did admit to doing some bad things, though she never said what exactly she did. But aside from that, I don't know how a channeler could be a Heroe because the OP cannot touch the dead. What would she do? Throw rocks or fight with her fists? But I might be wrong. Maybe the dead could still channel but not be not be attacked by the OP.

I'm not saying they won't be and if I'm wrong I'll jump for joy. I just don't think they would qualify.

Ishara
11-22-2010, 12:09 PM
Not all heroes are Heroes

This.

Just because we love them doesn't mean that they're the souls that Pattern needs to keep bound to the Wheel. It's not just about self-sacrifice, Birgitte shows us that, as do her descriptions of Gaidal.

Verin and Ingtar's sacrifices - while glorious - bring them back to zero. Maybe. Same with Farstrider. You did bad things, and you do one final good thing. It doesn't tip yo uover the scale, it brings you back to evens if you're lucky.

John Snow
12-30-2010, 11:55 AM
my own highly original thoughts upon finishing ToM....:D

Jain Farstrider will be a Horn Hero....and I'd love to see it when Mat toots the thing and up pops Noal. The guy was one fine fighter in his younger days, remember, and not too shabby even as a geezer. And I would regard his epics as a positive part of his hero resume.

And, hi, everyone.

Terez
12-30-2010, 01:26 PM
I think it's at least somewhat likely. Farstrider was Compelled, most likely, so I don't think Ingtar is necessarily a good comparison. Verin maybe, since she did so much damage to the Shadow's plans. But Farstrider seems to have all the marks of a Hero, from his arrest of Fairheart in Malkier to his travels around the world to his sacrifice at Ghenjei.

FelixPax
12-30-2010, 04:08 PM
Verin maybe, since she did so much damage to the Shadow's plans. But Farstrider seems to have all the marks of a Hero, from his arrest of Fairheart in Malkier to his travels around the world to his sacrifice at Ghenjei.


Verin might not wear a Cape... however the historical Santhra sounding awfully like who Verin was in her actions.


“Whatever it is, you don’t even seem to know where to look.” Vandene shifted some of the books and manuscripts on the table, shaking her head. “So many subjects. The Trolloc Wars. The Watchers Over the Waves. The legend of the Return. Two treatises on the Horn of Valere. Three on dark prophecy, and—Light, here’s Santhra’s book on the Forsaken. Nasty, that. As nasty as this on Shadar Logoth. And the Prophecies of the Dragon, in three translations and the original. Moiraine, whatever are you after? The Prophecies, I can understand—we hear some news here, remote as we are. We hear some of what’s happening in Illian. There’s even a rumor in the village that someone has already found the Horn.” She gestured with a manuscript on the Horn, and coughed in the dust that rose from it. “I discount that, of course. There would be rumors. But what—? No. You said you wanted privacy, and I’ll give it to you.”


The Great Hunt, Chapter 22 "Watchers" -- Moiraine point of view; with Vandene (twin sister of Adeleas)

One wrote a book on the topic of the Black Ajah, another on the Forsaken.

sleepinghour
12-30-2010, 04:22 PM
But would Farstrider want to become a Hero? Undoubtedly it's a great honor to be chosen, but it also means they have to spend all their time in T'A'R and never get to join their loved ones in the regular afterlife. Birgitte and Gaidal are the only lovers we know among the Heroes. If given the choice, Farstrider would probably want to be with his wife.

On the other hand, this might turn out to be a good thing for the channeler/non-channeler couples--if Thom and Lan become Heroes, Moiraine and Nynaeve might be able to visit them in T'A'R. Theoretically, Nynaeve could even revive them every time they die by ripping them out of T'A'R like Moghedien did with Birgitte.

Thom/Lan die of old age > become young again in T'A'R > Nynaeve rips them out. Repeat as many times as needed.

Weird Harold
12-30-2010, 05:20 PM
given that Jain seems to be one of the most famous and heroic people of the current age, does anybody else think he might come back in the final book when Mat blows the horn?

There's a good chance. IMNSHO, Famous is the key word in your question. Jain Farstrider is someone that people of all ages dream of being or being like. Aside from his books, Gleemen and bards tell tales of him and inspire the "common dream" required to hold a Hero in T'A'R to await the call of the Horn.

Being tied to the Horn is based on self-sacrifice IIRC, Jain will come to the Horn, and so will Verin.

Heros are bound to the Horn for a variety of reasons. Hawkwing wasn't noted for his self-sacrifice, but for his leadership and charisma. I don't have time to track down the references, but some Heros aren't even warriors in the conventional sense -- I want to say Anya The Wise Counselor is mentioned somewhere as an example of a non-warrior Hero.

Terez
12-30-2010, 05:27 PM
But would Farstrider want to become a Hero?
Doesn't matter:

Barnes and Noble chat 11 November 2000 (http://web.archive.org/web/20020628221559/http://www.dragonmount.com/Interviews/2000-11-06.aspx)

Beth Silver from Austin, TX: Aside from the Heroes of the Horn waiting around in the World of Dreams, is there any kind of afterlife in Wheel of Time? Do the Heroes get a choice when they are linked to the Horn; can they retire, or take 'ordinary life' sabbaticals?


RJ: In answer to the first question, yes, there is an ordinary afterlife. In answer to the second, no. You cannot decide not to be a Hero linked to the Wheel.

Theoretically, Nynaeve could even revive them every time they die by ripping them out of T'A'R like Moghedien did with Birgitte.
She can only rip a Hero out of Tel'aran'rhiod if one of two conditions is met:

1. Said Hero breaks the prescripts, as Birgitte did.

2. The Need is great enough that Nynaeve can find said Hero anyway.

Cortar
12-30-2010, 07:52 PM
Do we even know how Heroes are made/tied to the horn? Im not sure if the books mentioned how but I see two possibilities:

1. A Hero is spun out by the wheel, destined to do great things etc

2. Someone does something really awesome, the pattern recognizes it and spins him into a Hero by tying him to the horn

if it is number 2 then I think Jain would qualify, he HAS done a lot of stuff and traveled to many places, and along with his death that is probably enough to make him a Hero

Weird Harold
12-30-2010, 09:37 PM
Do we even know how Heroes are made/tied to the horn? Im not sure if the books mentioned how but I see two possibilities:

No we don't know from anything in the books or interviews HOW or WHY. All we know is that there are a hundred or more Archetypal Heroes who are bound to the Horn of Valere and that the Pattern spins them out as needed to correct imbalances in the Wheel of Time.

1. A Hero is spun out by the wheel, destined to do great things etc

This is true. We know this from Birgitte's missing Gaidal Cain and from RJ's explanations in the interview database -- linked in Terez's signature along with other online resources.

2. Someone does something really awesome, the pattern recognizes it and spins him into a Hero by tying him to the horn

This is also true. We know this from Hawkwing's comment to Hurin at Falme and from RJ's comments in Terez's interview database.

if it is number 2 then I think Jain would qualify, he HAS done a lot of stuff and traveled to many places, and along with his death that is probably enough to make him a Hero

Jain Farstrider is probably one of the archetypal Heroes already tied to the Horn and spun out to fulfill some Hero's Destiny -- Which may or may not have been his sacrifice in the Tower of Ghenjei.

I think he would qualify for addition if he weren't already Bound to the Horn, but he's too much of an archetype to not be bound already.

Do we even know how Heroes are made/tied to the horn?

My theory is that the Heroes Of The Horn are "elected" and shaped by the strength of their presence in the repertoire of gleemen and bards -- the popularity of tales of each Hero's best known incarnation determine that Hero's identity in T'A'R.

It is a Hero's place in the "Group Consciousness" that powers their presence in T'A'R and perhaps their place/rank in the band when called by the Horn.

The Immortal One
12-31-2010, 01:21 AM
My theory is that the Heroes Of The Horn are "elected" and shaped by the strength of their presence in the repertoire of gleemen and bards -- the popularity of tales of each Hero's best known incarnation determine that Hero's identity in T'A'R.

It is a Hero's place in the "Group Consciousness" that powers their presence in T'A'R and perhaps their place/rank in the band when called by the Horn.

Yes, this is my theory too.

Perhaps so many people dream of (for example) being Artur Hawkwing or meeting him that he gains a 'real' presence and conciousness in TAR, the World of Dreams.

Edit: and yes. I also think Jain Farstrider is already a Hero of the Horn.

GonzoTheGreat
12-31-2010, 03:15 AM
And, hi, everyone.Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say Hi at will to old friends. There is a pestilence upon this land, nothing is sacred. Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress in this period in history.

She can only rip a Hero out of Tel'aran'rhiod if one of two conditions is met:

1. Said Hero breaks the prescripts, as Birgitte did.

2. The Need is great enough that Nynaeve can find said Hero anyway.The second condition could be easily fulfilled by her own need. The first, however, would be a far greater problem, as Lan isn't the type to go around breaking rules.

Weird Harold
12-31-2010, 03:15 AM
Perhaps so many people dream of (for example) being Artur Hawkwing or meeting him that he gains a 'real' presence and conciousness in TAR, the World of Dreams.

It's more than a 'real' presence, because there is the Soul to consider that is NOT an artifact of the Common Dream. The contribution of the Common Dream is more the face and name each Hero Soul wears than their presence or absence.

The presence or absence of any particular Hero Soul is governed by a universal need for the archetypal heros. In a way, it is a different Common Dream or Group Consciousness than what provides the face and name for each soul to wear that ties each soul to the Wheel/Horn.

Terez
12-31-2010, 11:29 AM
The second condition could be easily fulfilled by her own need. The first, however, would be a far greater problem, as Lan isn't the type to go around breaking rules.
I've said before I think Nynaeve could probably rip out Lan if he was a Hero and died around the same time as Rand. I don't think her personal Need would be enough for the others.

Also, hi Snow! ;)

Juan
12-31-2010, 01:33 PM
I'm not sure Jain qualifies as a hero. I like him, no doubt, he traveled, and he sacrificed, but I'm willing to bet in a world like WOT with their population, other people have sacrificed themselves so that others may live. Also, traveling doesn't really make you a Hero of the Horn... So now with gateways, since everyone can travel much more quickly, everyone will be a Hero of the Horn? Or back in the AoL where technology allowed even common people as well as channelers to travel very easily? No, I don't think the traveling to many places makes him qualify as a hero.

The only thing is the sacrifice, and the only reason that even has a chance is because he saved Moiraine and Mat who are crucial in the Pattern in a legendary place.

I'm not convinced but then you never know.

Terez
12-31-2010, 01:45 PM
I'm not sure Jain qualifies as a hero. I like him, no doubt, he traveled, and he sacrificed, but I'm willing to bet in a world like WOT with their population, other people have sacrificed themselves so that others may live. Also, traveling doesn't really make you a Hero of the Horn... So now with gateways, since everyone can travel much more quickly, everyone will be a Hero of the Horn?
I think you missed the point. It's more about being an adventurer, a risk-taker, than traveling. Though as Hawkwing said, it takes more than bravery. Bravery can get a lot of idiots killed, but Farstrider lived a life full of taking risks, to discover the unknown, to bring Darkfriends to justice, and to break free from the Shadow's grip. His book about the lesser of these things - his adventures into the unknown - is the most popular book by far in Randland, apparently. No doubt his name will live on for Ages to come. That's the mark of a Hero.

Juan
12-31-2010, 02:12 PM
There could be others who did similar things except they didn't feel the need to write a book about it, and therefore the glory and feeling of accomplishment was kept to himself. Obviously, it wasn't like Jain told everybody he was Jain, but still. And it's good that he wrote about his travels because people learned much from them, but I'm just not convinced that really qualifies to be a Hero. It's one thing to be a hero. Another to be a Hero of the Horn. Then again I could be completely wrong, because some of the Heroes of the Horn don't seem like they really should be Heroes so maybe my standards are too high, or I'm applying the wrong standards or something.

In my eyes Jain Farstrider was a hero. Not a Hero.

Terez
12-31-2010, 03:07 PM
What do you think qualifies one to be a Hero? What evidence do you have for it? The only evidence we have is that all of the Heroes' deeds survive as stories for years to come.

da'caballien
12-31-2010, 06:59 PM
I do believe Farstrider is a Hero of the Horn based primarily on the fact that he's famous and genuinely larger-than-life in most peoples eyes. He also fits the Explorer Hero archetype that would make a good candidate for a reoccurring soul.

Weird Harold
12-31-2010, 08:42 PM
... He also fits the Explorer Hero archetype that would make a good candidate for a reoccurring soul.

this^^


Also, traveling doesn't really make you a Hero of the Horn... So now with gateways, since everyone can travel much more quickly, everyone will be a Hero of the Horn?

Jain Farstrider is the expression of mythical, legendary and historical Heros in the real world -- Jason, Ulyses, Perry, Stanley & Livingston, Amundsen, John Chapman, Lewis & Clark, Leif Erikson, Magellin, etc, etc, etc.

If any of those real-world examples can be considered "Heroic" -- despite the modern ability to duplicate their feats in less time with minimal danger -- then Jain Farstrider is also a "Hero Of Mythic Proportion" and deserves a seat in Valhalla.

morat'corlm
12-31-2010, 09:12 PM
Even in the 20th century there were noted explorers and adventurers, and disseminators of knowledge of the unexplored who grew to cultural icons. Even in the latter half of the 20th century, when air travel made globetrotting commonplace, though focus shifted elsewhere. Is Jacques-Yves Cousteau too different? Hell, David Attenborough? “Tell us about Lenn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Glenn),” Egwene called. “How he flew to the moon in the belly of an eagle made of fire. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_program) Felix often goes too far, I think, with the rebirth thing, but it's obviously an archetype with staying power, for that myth to stick around (distorted) for two Ages.

There are good narrative reasons to suspect Jain still has a role to play, too.

Juan
01-01-2011, 01:25 AM
@Terez
Right. And we've yet to see Jain's story survive and be significant in any way. So what evidence do you have for it to be Jain? ;)

The impression I've gotten from the storyline is that Jain is a legend for his travels not so much his deeds and not so much as a hero.

The queen of Manetheren (sorry I'm exhausted just came back from a party and btw happy new years everyone!) I don't remember her name. The Aes Sedai one who burned herself out and died by killing the invading Trollocs and all that... I don't know if she's a Hero of the Horn, but that's the kind of thing I'd expect of a Hero of the Horn.

@Weird Harold
Magellan, Erikson, Columbus, and explorers along those lines are remembered as exactly that: explorers who accomplished great feats in that area. They're not "heroes." Jason and Ulysses for example are travelers who are heroes for their various heroic feats and are remembered as such. Jain seems to be remembered as a wide-traveled man and an explorer. Not a hero. And so wouldn't qualify to be a Hero with a capital H.

Again, this is simply the way I see it.

GonzoTheGreat
01-01-2011, 05:26 AM
Jain seems to be remembered as a wide-traveled man and an explorer. Not a hero. And so wouldn't qualify to be a Hero with a capital H.

Again, this is simply the way I see it.Read and find out:
"Breyan fled with her infant son Isam, and was run down by Trollocs as she rode south with him. No one knows their fate of a certainty, but it can be guessed. I can find pity only for the boy. When Cowin Fairheart's treachery was revealed and he was taken by young Jain Charin – already called Jain Farstrider – when Fairheart was brought to the Seven Towers in chains, the Great Lords called for his head on a pike. But because he had been second only to al'Akir and Lain in the hearts of the people, the King faced him in single combat and slew him. Al'Akir wept when he killed Cowin. Some say he wept for a friend who had given himself to the Shadow, and some say for Malkier." The Lord of Fal Dara shook his head sadly.

"Other armies can be raised, fool. Armies you have not dreamed of will yet come. And you tracked me? You slug under a rock, track me? I began the setting of your path the day you were born, a path to lead you to your grave, or here. Aiel allowed to flee, and one to live, to speak the words that would echo down the years. Jain Farstrider, a hero," he twisted the word to a sneer, "whom I painted like a fool and sent to the Ogier thinking he was free of me. The Black Ajah, wriggling like worms on their bellies across the world to search you out. I pull the strings and the Amyrlin Seat dances and thinks she controls events."

BigBadWolfbrother
01-01-2011, 01:58 PM
What do you think qualifies one to be a Hero? What evidence do you have for it? The only evidence we have is that all of the Heroes' deeds survive as stories for years to come.

Maybe it is the simple fact of a person's deeds living on in the hearts of men that cause the pattern to hold on to them too??

Or is it the pattern requiring these story worthy deeds that makes men hold on to them...which came first the chicken or the egg?

Does it matter? Farstrider did what he had to do. How much inktime did he get in the series anyway?

Juan
01-01-2011, 02:39 PM
"hero, whom I painted like a fool." I can't really tell if he's being sarcastic or not.

@Bigbad
He was mentioned in a good number of places throughout the series, but they were mostly about his travels and the far places he visited.. not really for heroic deeds. This is me going on a limb from memories and I don't have time to go look through the books right now, so maybe some one else can clear this up a bit better.

Weird Harold
01-01-2011, 05:21 PM
...not really for heroic deeds....

Perhaps the problem is that you have too narrow a definition of "Heroic Deeds."

Was being the first man on the moon a "heroic deed?"

How about being the first (european) to scale Everest?

How about being the first to circumnavigate the Globe?

How about wandering around planting apple trees along the Immigrant Trails to the West?

All of those people are generally considered Heros, although the last, John Chapman aka Johnny Appleseed, didn't do any deeds that individually rose to the level of "Heroic" and is merely a "Folk Hero."

Marie Curie 7
01-01-2011, 08:20 PM
The impression I've gotten from the storyline is that Jain is a legend for his travels not so much his deeds and not so much as a hero.

The queen of Manetheren (sorry I'm exhausted just came back from a party and btw happy new years everyone!) I don't remember her name. The Aes Sedai one who burned herself out and died by killing the invading Trollocs and all that... I don't know if she's a Hero of the Horn, but that's the kind of thing I'd expect of a Hero of the Horn.

He was mentioned in a good number of places throughout the series, but they were mostly about his travels and the far places he visited.. not really for heroic deeds. This is me going on a limb from memories and I don't have time to go look through the books right now, so maybe some one else can clear this up a bit better.

As has been previously mentioned I think, RJ made it clear that Heroes of the Horn are not always those who we might consider heroes in the sense of deeds in battle or the like. It depends upon what the Pattern needs.

Netherlands tour 7 April 2001, Elf Fantasy Fair - Aan'allein reporting

RJ: Heroes that are bound to the Wheel, they're not always heroes in the way of someone who rides in galloping with a sword, or carries out daring rescues. The people, the Heroes who are bound to the Wheel, are the corrective mechanisms. Human behavior is throwing the Pattern out. It's throwing the balance off. And the Wheel spins out the proper correctives. Put everything back in the balance. So not even the Forsaken are apart from that, they're not outside. The only things that are outside are the Creator and the Dark One. Neither affected by the Pattern.

And the Queen of Manetheren was Eldrene.

Res_Ipsa
01-01-2011, 11:18 PM
This discussion could probably be tied in with Terez's construct theory successfully but I would like to know if RJ ever gave a time-line from the heroes death until they are bound to the horn and how quickly it may happen in some cases. If souls have always existed and are spun-out at the appropriate times then its more like pre-destination than an individual hero being worthy.

Weird Harold
01-02-2011, 12:11 AM
...I would like to know if RJ ever gave a time-line from the heroes death until they are bound to the horn and how quickly it may happen in some cases.

The closest he has come to that sort of detail is the assertion that Olver is too old to be Caidal Cain -- and that obviously addresses the other end of the cycle.

I'm fairly certain that there is no fixed timeline -- some heros might be reborn almost immediately upon the death of one incarnation and others, like LTT, might wait 3000+ years for their next incarnation.

There is no inherent reason for there to be any delay between death and active presence on the Roster of Heros who answer the Horn. If Rand dies and Mat immediately sounds the HoV, Rand should be at the head of the pack alongside Artur Hawkwing.

[QUOTE=Res_Ipsa;137628If souls have always existed and are spun-out at the appropriate times then its more like pre-destination than an individual hero being worthy.[/QUOTE]

Heros who are already bound to the Horn do get spun out to perfomr a predestined task. In the process, they seem to generate a new identity for their archtypal soul -- although there is no particular reason that they must generate a new Identity; they might be quietly heroic and retain the myth and legend of their previous incarnation instead.

"New" Heroes may or may not have been born to fulfill a specific task, but they will have been born with a predestined place in the Pattern. Getting "elected" to the HotH is as much a matter of "Style Points" over substance. They may not even be new heroes in any real sense, they may just be long forgotten heroes from so far in the back of the pack that even the Heros have forgotten them.

Juan
01-02-2011, 01:48 AM
@WH
Perhaps. As I said before, I admitted that my standards could be exceedingly high. Or perhaps people who believe Jain is a Hero of the Horn's standards aren't high enough. We will see.

@Marie
As has been previously mentioned I think, RJ made it clear that Heroes of the Horn are not always those who we might consider heroes in the sense of deeds in battle or the like. It depends upon what the Pattern needs.

And since most seem to consider Jain a Hero, perhaps he isn't one then. ;)

And thanks for the name, it was bugging me!

Weird Harold
01-02-2011, 05:35 AM
@WH
Perhaps. As I said before, I admitted that my standards could be exceedingly high. Or perhaps people who believe Jain is a Hero of the Horn's standards aren't high enough. We will see

Luckily, it is neither your opinion nor mine that determines what it takes to be bound to the Wheel as a Hero of The Horn; the only opinion that matters is RJ's.

Personally, I wouldn't class Anne Landers (or her sister "Dear abby") as a Hero worthy of "Valhalla" but she/they survives into the third age as "Anla the Wise Counselor," so RJ's standards are apparently pretty low. :D