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Dewairah
11-18-2010, 09:03 PM
OMG

Has anyone noticed how much BS writes "said" in dialogue

e.g

"blahblahblah" matt said
"blahblahblah" Thom said
"blahblablah" matt said

so annoyinggggg!!! :mad:

I didnt notice it in my intial read but it really stood out the second time.

jana
11-18-2010, 09:13 PM
If this is a joke I commend you.

If it's not a joke I laugh at you.

Wait, that doesn't make sense.

Dewairah
11-18-2010, 09:17 PM
... i dont get it.

I'm SERIOUS. :(

jana
11-18-2010, 09:23 PM
ok.

morat'corlm
11-18-2010, 09:27 PM
It was more noticeable in TGS than in TOM, as were a lot of his foibles.

For TOM, what really started to grate were the ninety-seven instances of the word “force” to describe a military body, or the twenty-nine quite unnatural instances of sentence-initial “However,”.

The Angry Druid
11-18-2010, 09:40 PM
Yep. He doesn't vary his word choice much. It makes the writing much less descriptive.

Instead of said. RJ would write things like "muttered" or "mumbled" or "responded" or "quipped" or some other.

I love BS for what he's doing, and he is a good writer in many ways, but lacking in others.

He does it a LOT. Like with both Rand and Siuan referring to Tar Valon as the "center of power" of Aes Sedai. Etc.

jana
11-18-2010, 09:49 PM
ok. I will give in and admit that I miss "her lips tightened." That always meant an Aes Sedai was mad.

And Moiraine did a lot of murmuring which I enjoyed. If she doesn't murmur at least once in AMoL I will be disappointed.

MURMURMURMURMURMUR
http://www.almarsguides.com/Almar's%20Stuff/WoW/Instances/Shadow%20Labs/Muurmur.jpg
MURMURMURMURMUR
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_R7R5VvN9vkE/RqApv3EXjQI/AAAAAAAAAIM/Ur7txxgB96A/s320/murmur.jpg

From this day forward, this is how I will picture Moiraine when she murmurs. I really hated you Mr. Staypuff. Especially that night in the winter of 2007, when Ashley Judd went over the instructions on killing you for 30 minutes and in my vodak'd stupor I was enthralled.


Ashley Judd's warcarp toon (http://www.wowarmory.com/character-sheet.xml?r=Madoran&cn=Amaegwynn)
Wow, lady. What is up with that belt? You go red AND green AND don't match the socket. What could possibly be going through your mind there?

I shouldn't post when I'm excited about Harry Potter movies.

Dewairah
11-18-2010, 09:58 PM
he referred to perrin's armor etc as "gear".

I died. :(

jana
11-18-2010, 10:00 PM
he referred to perrin's armor etc as "gear".

I died. :(

The truuuuuuuuble with schoolz is, they always try to teach the wrong less'n

“Uh, my Lord?” Barim glanced at the men waiting with their horses. “Do you think you might need me, my Lord?”

Without even asking where or why. He was not the only one bored with country life. “Catch up to us when you have your gear together. We’ll be heading south on the Four Kings Road to start.” Barim saluted and dashed away, dragging his horse behind him.

HunterOTS
11-18-2010, 10:01 PM
There was a word he used in ToM a few times thought I was severely out of place but I can't remember it now. I'll have to keep an eye out for it.

jana
11-18-2010, 10:03 PM
There was a word he used in ToM a few times thought I was severely out of place but I can't remember it now. I'll have to keep an eye out for it.

"Perrin"

HunterOTS
11-18-2010, 10:09 PM
"Perrin"

Haha I don't even know what to say about that but the more I think about it the funnier it gets.

Dewairah
11-18-2010, 10:36 PM
:The truuuuuuuuble with schoolz is, they always try to teach the wrong less'n

how dare you ? why would you type such a thing? :confused:

jana
11-18-2010, 10:45 PM
:

how dare you ? why would you type such a thing? :confused:

It came into my head because it was hyper, and RJ used the word gear before.

Dewairah
11-18-2010, 10:50 PM
lol he probably did. Sounded weird from BS though, i think because his style of writing is different from RJ and includes many phrases/mannerisms which we would use in the contemporary real world but seem slightly strange to randland.

IMO

Terez
11-18-2010, 10:57 PM
If this is a joke I commend you.

If it's not a joke I laugh at you.

Wait, that doesn't make sense.
It makes perfect sense.

gholam
11-19-2010, 12:37 AM
IN page number 104, writings I see a man sniffing for the first time in WOT.

Chubain sniffed, then walked into the hallway

It left a bad taste in my mouth

Terez
11-19-2010, 12:40 AM
Chubain is a prettyboy; he can sniff. Galad can too.

morat'corlm
11-19-2010, 12:49 AM
It isn't even the first usage. Dain Bornhald sniffed all the way back in Ch. 15 of Eye of the World.

Of course, what he was sniffing at was the notion that Rand might be dangerous. But that's Bornhald for you; he always gives you the very best in "completely wrong."

The IdealSeek results for "sniffed" are hilarious.

FelixPax
11-19-2010, 01:00 AM
Wonder what the average usage rate of the word "said" is, per book?

RJ did use the word "said" an awful lot (http://idealseek.no-ip.com/IdealSeek.cgi?q=said)too: 13,593 times, between NS to KoD.

Book # of 'Said' # of Words # of 'Said' on Average per Book
New Spring the Novel 389 121,815 313.1491
The Eye of the World 1554 305,902 196.8481
The Great Hunt 1247 267,078 214.1764
The Dragon Reborn 1265 251,392 198.7288
The Shadow Rising 1699 393,823 231.7969
The Fires of Heaven 1275 354,109 277.7325
Lord of Chaos 1472 389,264 264.4456
A Crown of Swords 1017 295,028 290.0963
The Path of Daggers 707 226,687 320.6322
Winter's Heart 839 238,789 284.6114
Crossroads of Twilight 843 271,632 322.2206
Knife of Dreams 1286 315,163 245.0723

In conclusion, Robert Jordan wrote "said" on average every 263.292 word between 'New Spring' to 'Knife of Dream'. I do not at this time know what Brandon Sanderson rate usage of the word 'said' is, on average.


lol he probably did. Sounded weird from BS though, i think because his style of writing is different from RJ and includes many phrases/mannerisms which we would use in the contemporary real world but seem slightly strange to randland.


Many of Perrin, Mat, Rand, Elayne's point of view and scenes in TofM felt off repeatedly. Unfortunately, at times its was enough simply to glance at a page, and instantly I knew I was not reading Robert Jordan's words.

How? Paragraph Styling. Brandon prefers ample dialog and less descriptive words, while Robert Jordan preferred to inter-mix character dialog and 'thick' descriptive words in longer chunks of paragraphs typically.

Perhaps the word "said" stuck out so much in TofM book relatively speaking, because of the sheer lack of interwoven 'thick' description and a lack of varying words?

dominominic
11-19-2010, 02:34 AM
Chubain is a prettyboy; he can sniff. Galad can too.

Hurin was known to do a bit of sniffing too.

Jonai
11-19-2010, 02:51 AM
This thread was great before Felix got to it, Deadsy, are you always hyper or just on a perma caffeine buzz? Vodka'd stupor sounds like something I would do.

I didn't really notice said. "Son" was a little strange though.

Daekyras
11-19-2010, 03:01 AM
This thread was great before Felix got to it, Deadsy, are you always hyper or just on a perma caffeine buzz? Vodka'd stupor sounds like something I would do.

I didn't really notice said. "Son" was a little strange though.

I was just typing that!

Thom used it like 9 times talking to mat and Perrin.

jana
11-19-2010, 03:56 AM
Deadsy, are you always hyper or just on a perma caffeine buzz?
I'm affronted. I am a demure and sophisticated lady. A modern day Amy Winehouse, if you will.

I was going to post a picture of her but then I got really scared.































































just kidding

http://www.algerie-dz.com/IMG/jpg/amy_winehouse_22555.jpg

Jonai
11-19-2010, 04:03 AM
That makes perfect sense...

Jokeslayer
11-19-2010, 04:33 AM
Wonder what the average usage rate of the word "said" is, per book?

RJ did use the word "said" an awful lot (http://idealseek.no-ip.com/IdealSeek.cgi?q=said)too: 13,593 times, between NS to KoD.

Book # of 'Said' # of Words # of 'Said' on Average per Book
New Spring the Novel 389 121,815 313.1491
The Eye of the World 1554 305,902 196.8481
The Great Hunt 1247 267,078 214.1764
The Dragon Reborn 1265 251,392 198.7288
The Shadow Rising 1699 393,823 231.7969
The Fires of Heaven 1275 354,109 277.7325
Lord of Chaos 1472 389,264 264.4456
A Crown of Swords 1017 295,028 290.0963
The Path of Daggers 707 226,687 320.6322
Winter's Heart 839 238,789 284.6114
Crossroads of Twilight 843 271,632 322.2206
Knife of Dreams 1286 315,163 245.0723

In conclusion, Robert Jordan wrote "said" on average every 263.292 word between 'New Spring' to 'Knife of Dream'. I do not at this time know what Brandon Sanderson rate usage of the word 'said' is, on average.





Many of Perrin, Mat, Rand, Elayne's point of view and scenes in TofM felt off repeatedly. Unfortunately, at times its was enough simply to glance at a page, and instantly I knew I was not reading Robert Jordan's words.

How? Paragraph Styling. Brandon prefers ample dialog and less descriptive words, while Robert Jordan preferred to inter-mix character dialog and 'thick' descriptive words in longer chunks of paragraphs typically.

Perhaps the word "said" stuck out so much in TofM book relatively speaking, because of the sheer lack of interwoven 'thick' description and a lack of varying words?

more posts like this please (no this is not sarcasm)

Helloes
11-19-2010, 04:56 AM
According to my slightly illegal ebook version I got to search the text quicker than the paper version, there are 2067 "said" in Towers of Midnight, oh and 335,454 words, with the glossary.

One Armed Gimp
11-19-2010, 08:05 AM
OMG

Has anyone noticed how much BS writes "said" in dialogue

e.g

"blahblahblah" matt said
"blahblahblah" Thom said
"blahblablah" matt said

so annoyinggggg!!! :mad:

I didnt notice it in my intial read but it really stood out the second time.

Sounds like you have a tempest building up inside of you.

Anaiya Sedai
11-19-2010, 08:28 AM
Sounds like you have a tempest building up inside of you.
the last battle has started.


Elayne's constant use of "The Crown" made me want to hit someone.

wyk
11-19-2010, 08:52 AM
I like bs' style for his use of dialogue driven narrative. I find the dialogue in any story to be what I focus on. Descriptions are nice but what people say seems to matter more to me. The 'saids' don't bother me, I tend to just ignore them.

Spasmodean
11-19-2010, 12:12 PM
When reading TGS, the use of the word "Well" to start a sentence was particularly jarring to me.

Verin used it, and another 2 I can't remember off the top of my head (but the weren't from Far Madding so they shouldn't all have the same idioms).

Aha, Elaida was one as well.

Will look for the 3rd.

Crispin's Crispian
11-19-2010, 03:14 PM
the last battle has started.

I think you mean,

"It has started. The Last Battle."

Fragmentation rulez!

Great Lord of the Dark
11-19-2010, 05:41 PM
I love data.

In a podcast, Brandon and co. discussed whether it's better to use 'said' or some other word. They concluded 'said' works best when you don't want to draw attention away from the conversation. Use of a weird word like 'Mat polysyllablized...' would knock the reader out of the story.

Save the big words for when you need them.

metaphor
11-19-2010, 08:39 PM
The only thing that bothers me is the use of the word "awesome" when describing things.
The awesome tower, the awesome force. I don't think Jordan ever used it, not to describe things anyway. He made you realize that it is awesome, and feel awe for it, but doesn't just call it awesome. That would feel a bit cheap.

HunterOTS
11-19-2010, 10:10 PM
The only thing that bothers me is the use of the word "awesome" when describing things.
The awesome tower, the awesome force. I don't think Jordan ever used it, not to describe things anyway. He made you realize that it is awesome, and feel awe for it, but doesn't just call it awesome. That would feel a bit cheap.

I did a search for "awesome" and the only book that came up with results for it was TGS (ToM isn't included on the search).

Xelun
11-19-2010, 10:41 PM
The IdealSeek results for "sniffed" are hilarious.

Seconded.

Dewairah
11-20-2010, 02:13 AM
"said" sounds particularly crap when (as my intial example shows) the writer has a sentence of dialogue "said" by one character followed by a line of dialogue "said" by another.

I dont doubt RJ wrote "said" lots of time but i dont remember in my recent read-through him ever having

"(insert line here)" mat said.
"(insert line here)" thom said.

I find that to be poor writing technique and the fact that i wasted time considering it took me out of the story (the exact opposite of what BS was intending, i'm sure)

I actually didnt mind the audio books (I find i start skim reading when i get tired and can miss things sometimes, audio books make that somewhat harder) and i've listened to almost all of them but it made the ToM one almost unlistenable. As soon as i "heard" that it made me want to switch it off.

HunterOTS
11-20-2010, 02:42 AM
Heh... I guess it's better than him writing: "Rand was like, 'If you did this a month ago I'd have balefired you' then Cadsuane was like, 'What about the Guardian?' and then Rand was all like, 'That only blocks the OP."

But seriously, it does become extremely repetative to see any verb occur so frequently. I do see what BS means about "said" working out better than alternatives, because I think many authors tend to sound forced when they use the various synonyms. I don't know what the trick is to not make it appear so mechanical, like they typed it up in Word and right-clicked to find synonyms, but RJ had the talent. I think it may have something to do with breaking up the dialogue with descriptive statements. When an author already writes in a style that is "chatty" it becomes more pronounced that they rely on the verb "said."

Nicci
11-20-2010, 03:14 AM
I'm curious, did/would Jordan ever describe changing location in T'a'r as "shifting"? Sanderson seems to write "Perrin shifted there." a lot.

I really don't know how to explain it, but I'll give it a shot. Jordan and Sanderson feel slightly different in the way they describe magic; or rather, the activity of using the magic. Sanderson emphasizes the usage of the magic, while Jordan emphasize the effect.

The shifting made me think of Kaladin in The Way of Kings more than anything else.

Is this all in my head, or did someone else notice it?

Jonai
11-20-2010, 03:18 AM
Glad that ToM was massive enough that everyone of us could have their own personal nitpick. <3

HunterOTS
11-20-2010, 03:36 AM
I'm curious, did/would Jordan ever describe changing location in T'a'r as "shifting"? Sanderson seems to write "Perrin shifted there." a lot.

I really don't know how to explain it, but I'll give it a shot. Jordan and Sanderson feel slightly different in the way they describe magic; or rather, the activity of using the magic. Sanderson emphasizes the usage of the magic, while Jordan emphasize the effect.

The shifting made me think of Kaladin in The Way of Kings more than anything else.

Is this all in my head, or did someone else notice it?

I didn't notice it on my own but I decided to look and it doesn't seem like RJ ever used "shifted" in that sense. I found one instance of Nyneave and Elayne moving in TAR that way and here is how RJ phrased it:
LoC Ch. 13
Suddenly everything seemed to slide around her; she felt Tel'aran'rhiod tilt and swoop.

I don't mind the term shifting to describe that type of movement, but it sounds cool that way too.

Jokeslayer
11-20-2010, 04:46 AM
So what we're saying in this thread is that Brandon Sanderson and Robert Jordan are different people? Fascinating.

morat'corlm
11-20-2010, 05:04 AM
I'm curious, did/would Jordan ever describe changing location in T'a'r as "shifting"?No. Sanderson's probably adapted it from this:
Closing her eyes, she concentrated on Tanchico, on the Panarch’s Palace, on need. Something dangerous to Rand, to the Dragon Reborn, need . . . Around her, Tel’aran’rhiod shifted; she felt it, a sliding lurch, and opened her eyes eagerly to see what she had found.Nynaeve clamped her eyes shut. Need.

Shift.

Jonai
11-20-2010, 05:06 AM
Different people? Impossible. Jorderson.

vertigo987
11-21-2010, 12:04 AM
The first time Nynaeve started a sentence with "er", I was quite disconcerted. that seemed pretty out of character for her. I noticed that word crop up a few more times and felt that it was pretty out of place in Randland. I also noticed that BS liked to use the word "odd" quite frequently.

Still loved the book though!!

jana
11-21-2010, 12:10 AM
The first time Nynaeve started a sentence with "er", I was quite disconcerted. that seemed pretty out of character for her. I noticed that word crop up a few more times and felt that it was pretty out of place in Randland. I also noticed that BS liked to use the word "odd" quite frequently.

Still loved the book though!!

I noticed that too but little things like this don't bother me. (but the only place I'd read "Er" in a book before was Harry Potter)

Seeker
11-21-2010, 02:09 AM
I was gonna write a reasoned argument to this. I was going to explain, as I have many times before, that it is neither fair nor productive to compare Sanderson to Jordan in a who's better contest.

But instead, I'm going to let Urban Dictionary say it for me.

Shit-picking

The act of trying to find every little freaking thing wrong about anything, in a rather sad/pathetic attempt to validate one's intelligence, yet the act of shitpicking actually does the opposite; as it proves that the person shitpicking is so desperate for attention that they will grasp at literally anything in an attempt to prove someone else wrong, and/or win an argument.

That's what this thread is: shit-picking. Nothing more.

I'd like to make something clear. I know I've developed a bit of a reputation for coming to Sanderson's defense but I am by no means a Sanderson apologist. I am certainly not of the belief that he can do no wrong.

For instance, Mistborn: The Well of Ascension. While a good read overall, this book lags in the middle. It suffers from minor pacing problems that might have been fixed with a tighter script.

So, yes, Brandon Sanderson is human just like the rest of us and that means that the things he creates aren't going to be perfect. And yes, I leap to his defense. But the reason I do so is because TOO MANY PEOPLE ON THIS BOARD CRITICIZE SANDERSON FOR COMPLETELY INVALID REASONS

And he reads these forums.

And you people will give the poor man a complex. You see, you guys don't criticize him because his writing style is BAD, you criticize him because his writing style is different than that of Robert Jordan.

Let me try to explain.

"We'll never survive the Tower without iron," Mat said.

"Music would help too," Thom said.


Yes, this is a stylistic weakness. Yes, there are better ways to phrase this particular exchange. But the point that everyone seems to be missing is that IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO HAVE A WRITING STYLE THAT COMES WITH ABSOLUTELY NO WEAKNESSES

There is no author in existence who does not suffer from the occasional stylistic weakness. There is no author that I have read who has NEVER made me say "No no, this should be worded differently." Every single book I have ever read has elicited this thought from me on numerous occasions. Not one author is immune. Not Sanderson, not Brust, not Butcher, not Pratchett, not Rowling and not myself.

The very act of writing creates stylistic weaknesses. They are unavoidable. They can be minimized but not eliminated entirely.

Mr. Jordan's style had weaknesses too. Long, flowery sentences that had to be read several times in order to comprehend their meaning. This is not a mistake on Mr. Jordan's part; had he changed his writing style, he would have simply exchanged one set of weaknesses for another.

That's the trade off. You choose a style for its strengths and accept the weaknesses that come with it. Sanderson stated in an interview that he uses "said" because larger words would draw attention away from the substance of the dialogue. And he is correct. Newspaper editors insist that all of their reporters use "said" and none of its alternatives specifically because the average reader glosses over that word without noticing it. I know this because I'm dating a reporter.

So, the strength of Mr. Sanderson's style is that it keeps your focus on the actual dialogue. Its corresponding weakness is occasional bits of repeated sentence structure. Sanderson attempts to minimize this weakness by not always using "said." And I'd be willing to bet that when he writes dialogue, he analyzes which verb to use. "Should I use 'said' or 'responded?' 'Said' will keep focus on the dialogue but 'responded' will sound better?'" You see what I'm saying? Each choice has its pro and its con. It's not possible for him to make a choice that is all pro.

Part of finding success in writing is learning to accept this limitation, this reality that you can't be stylistically perfect all the time. When you choose a style, you have to play to the averages. The average reader will almost never notice "said" no matter how many times you say it.

I am not an average reader. I notice.

But I'm also a writer. I've been TRAINED to notice.

Some people will be more able to notice your stylistic weaknesses than others. You have to play to the averages and accept that no matter what you do, SOMEONE out there will find fault with it. The trick is making sure that 8 out of 10 people DON'T find fault with it.

Most of the people who have read Towers of Midnight don't really care about how many times Sanderson used "said" or how many times he started a sentence with "well" or any of the other bullshit minutiae that you guys are dragging up here just to be petty.

So you probably shouldn't point it out to them either because you'll force people to notice things that wouldn't have bothered them in the first place. That's what makes it shit-picking.

And if it bothers you that much, well, hey Brandon Sanderson is not your cup of tea.

Nuff said.

vertigo987
11-21-2010, 02:27 AM
In response to Seeker:

I appreciate many of the points you made and would like to say that my post in particular was not meant as a criticism of Brandon Sanderson. I am a big fan of his and have loved many of his novels including tGS and ToM. The Way of Kings was wonderful in my estimation. I chose to point out a couple of minor details in Brandon's word choice that caught my attention in some manner, because I found this thread/discussion to be interesting from an analytical standpoint. I know that your post was not specifically pointed at me, but as a newcomer to this forum (that was my second post), I found your comments to be a little bellacose. I totally understand your passion on the subject. I sometimes feel the same way when I read severe Egwene-bashing threads! It was, however, slightly unwelcoming from a newcomer's perspective. Just thought i should let you know.

jana
11-21-2010, 02:35 AM
I sometimes feel the same way when I read severe Egwene-bashing threads!

You're muh new best friend!

HunterOTS
11-21-2010, 03:01 AM
I have participated in the shit-picking but I didn't mean it as a complaint against BS, just analysis. I like his writing and I liked TGS and ToM alot. I also want him to continue with WoT world in the prequels and outriggers. I also plan to read his other books as well.

Nicci
11-21-2010, 03:39 AM
In response to Seeker:

I appreciate many of the points you made and would like to say that my post in particular was not meant as a criticism of Brandon Sanderson. I am a big fan of his and have loved many of his novels including tGS and ToM. The Way of Kings was wonderful in my estimation. I chose to point out a couple of minor details in Brandon's word choice that caught my attention in some manner, because I found this thread/discussion to be interesting from an analytical standpoint. I know that your post was not specifically pointed at me, but as a newcomer to this forum (that was my second post), I found your comments to be a little bellacose. I totally understand your passion on the subject. I sometimes feel the same way when I read severe Egwene-bashing threads! It was, however, slightly unwelcoming from a newcomer's perspective. Just thought i should let you know.

This.

I doubt most contributing to this topic mean to criticize Sanderson. Personally I'm a big fan, and am very thankful he took over after Jordans untimely demise.

Now, with an author taking over after another like this, it's quite natural for fans to search for stylistic evidence of this shift. The fact that only minor details can be found goes to Sanderson's credit. It speaks of respect for Jordans work and dedication to the source material.

I for one apologize if my comment came off as negative. To me, it was simply one of the few parts of the story where I actually noticed that it was Sanderson, not Jordan who was telling it.

Jokeslayer
11-21-2010, 04:50 AM
Nuff said.

I think you mean "Enough said", you hack.

On the other hand, the guy is a published author (many times over) who teaches/taught Creative Writing at university. All of this suggests he's a smart guy. I'm sure he's not going to suffer a breakdown and start calling himself Brobert Jorderson and having all his characters start tugging their braids and crossing their amrs under their breasts every ten seconds and all the other stuff we complained about Robert Jordan doing. I'm sure I remember him saying something back when the announcement was made about deliberatley not immitating RJ's style, so surely he must have expected to be compared to RJ (and frankly, anyone coming in to write the fourteenth book in a best-selling series would have to be a mind-numbingly colossal moron not to expect to be compared to the original author).

In short, while some of this thread does seem unnecessary to me (and I thought the same about some of the posts in the stickied Plot/World Error and typo threads up top, including posts by Heroes) it's not because I think it's going to snap Sanderson's mind.

Seeker
11-21-2010, 09:34 AM
In response to Seeker:
I chose to point out a couple of minor details in Brandon's word choice that caught my attention in some manner, because I found this thread/discussion to be interesting from an analytical standpoint. I know that your post was not specifically pointed at me, but as a newcomer to this forum (that was my second post), I found your comments to be a little bellacose. I totally understand your passion on the subject. I sometimes feel the same way when I read severe Egwene-bashing threads! It was, however, slightly unwelcoming from a newcomer's perspective. Just thought i should let you know.


That's a good point, Vertigo, and I would like you to feel free to speak honestly in any discussion regardless of the position you choose to take in that discussion. Please don't let me frighten you into silence as that's not my intent either. My post came from my reaction to the first page and a half of this thread, not any one person in particular.

I will, however, ask you a favour. Please do the following.

1) Take an hour and focus on something other than Theoryland.

2) Clear your mind and try not to think about this thread.

3) Come back and read this thread again with a fresh outlook.

4) Tell me what you think of the tone in most of the posts.

I did just this. After reading your response, I went away for a bit and came back to see if maybe I had read a snarkiness into the posts that wasn't meant to be there.

I still see it actually. Read the first page and a half. True, some posts are just analysis of style points (and that is to be encouraged) others have a very strong subtext of "RJ wouldn't have screwed it up like this." In fact, several posts come right out and say it. And you can just hear the tone of a whiny three-year-old in the statement.

To me, that's rude.

Then again, the fan community is entitled to lambaste Sanderson as much as it wants. If he doesn't want to hear it, he can just not read the boards.

Of course, by the same token, I am allowed to lambaste the fan community as much as I want... Not that I want to, mind. But it's the same logic.

So, yes, feel free to post whatever you want.

Seeker
11-21-2010, 09:57 AM
That and I'm working on a new theory.

It's called "The internet ruined WOT."

vertigo987
11-21-2010, 10:32 AM
Excellent points and idea, Seeker. I'm glad that you took the time to respond to my post in a friendly and productive way. I appreciate that! I did go back and read all of the posts again and found that the tone of some of them was more querolous than others. I can see how those particular posts irritated you! One other point. I hope my post didn't feel like a personal attack to you in any way. I meant what I said about respecting your passion. I definitely feel the way you did in many instances. I even dig the fact that you took the time to express it. I just wanted to speak up for those on this particular thread who do love Brandon but also love to delve into the minutiae of writing! Thanks again for an open channel of communication!

vertigo987
11-21-2010, 10:35 AM
I meant querulous!

Seeker
11-21-2010, 10:44 AM
And do feel free to disagree with me.

I'm not going to crucify you for it. :)

Daekyras
11-21-2010, 05:19 PM
That and I'm working on a new theory.
It's called "The internet ruined WOT."

you should make it a faction.

Anyway, i don't have a fancy search engine to check- i'm too old school/idiotic- so i hope someone here will do this for me.

Could someone check how often the word "pitcher" shows up in the series?

Then check how often it shows up with chipped/cracked/broken etc.?

This is a semi serious request! I really would like to know. It sometimes feels like everyone in randland is pretty clumsy...

Jonai
11-21-2010, 05:28 PM
The world is in decline! If we can't have paved roads, what makes you think we can have smooth pitchers? lol

I did look at what Seeker suggested, but it mostly seems like clowning to me. Maybe I just can't recognize overt snarkiness when I see it. Bout to go to work without internet, so I'll definitely be thinking of something other than TL for more than an hour. ;;

dominominic
11-21-2010, 06:30 PM
you should make it a faction.

Anyway, i don't have a fancy search engine to check- i'm too old school/idiotic- so i hope someone here will do this for me.

Could someone check how often the word "pitcher" shows up in the series?

Then check how often it shows up with chipped/cracked/broken etc.?

This is a semi serious request! I really would like to know. It sometimes feels like everyone in randland is pretty clumsy...

You could use "Ideal Seek"...it's a search engine for the text of the books.

Edit: matches found for "pitcher" = 203! "chipped pitcher" = 6!

CreationEdge
11-23-2010, 10:59 AM
"Darkness within!"



Okay, Graendal, we get it! Apparently, this is one of the expressions Friends of the Dark use, rather than saying "Light!"


I GET IT!

Dewairah
11-23-2010, 06:52 PM
rather than saying "Light!"


Which they also say...



Seeker:

I agree everyone has weaknesses.

I disagree that i'm obliged to either like BS's weakness because of the reasons you stated, or refrain from speaking about those weakness simply because BS is not RJ and everyone has strengths and weakenesses.

You're like one of those people who say we shouldnt discuss (or should simply overlook) abu ghraib because now there is a now (corrupt) democracy in iraq. Sorry pal, i dont buy it.

That is what this forum is for - speaking about the text, the writer, the plot, the characters, etc.

If authors cant handle criticism or the fact that some people might not like every aspect of their books (and i happened to, by and large, like TGS/TOM) then they shouldnt write or shouldnt put their writing in the public domain.

Yes i was shit picking - the weaknesses mentioned by myself and others are that - weaknesses - (or "shit" aspects) of BS's writing, ergo those of us who feel that way have picked up on them and are speaking about them.

Obviously, given the comments on the thread, more than one person has found that this "weakness" or "shit", if you will, has effected their reading experience to one degree or another. Suprise, suprise some people are giving air to that.

Unfortunately, not everyone is going to like every book, every writing style, every character or every plot line. Even the most ardent fans of the series hate many of the characters or hated whole plot arcs. Many of them hated aspects of RJ's writing style as well (e.g 1 page ramble discussing wall coverings, carpet and vases when people walked into rooms).

To suggest, however, that we're "ruining" the book for others by speaking about things we didnt like about BS's style (or RJ's for that matter) is rubbish.

No one is forcing anyone to agree with their opinion or to even read this thread, no one is forcing anyone to read WoT to begin with or come on this forum to be begin with. Each and every person made their own choices and thus begets their own opinion based upon their experience. I'm sorry my opinions and the opinions of many of the others on this forum is getting your panties in a bunch but (similar to writers and writing) if fans of the series cant go on forums and read views about the style of writing, plot, etc that do not agree with their own views - they shouldnt be going on forums discussing the book.

BS is not above reproach or analysis for his style - and neither was RJ. (or any othe writer for that matter).

netslider
11-24-2010, 10:39 AM
I've noticed that myself (especially in the Way of Kings) and in ToM. Have to say, makes my ears bleed (audiobook freak here). Anyways, I don't think he uses it too much, but rather he uses it unwisely. Meaning, it should go like this:

Blah, blah, blah. Mat said
Blah, blah, blah. Thom responded or answered or mumbled, or shot back, or whatever.

Point: there are a lot of words to use interchangeably with "said." I wonder if this is BS or an editor (though Hariet didn't do that before that I've notice, and she didn't work on Ways of Kings).

GonzoTheGreat
11-24-2010, 10:49 AM
Point: there are a lot of words to use interchangeably with "said."It is precisely in this area that native speakers of a language have a big advantage over the non-native speakers. Even when the latter know all those alternatives, they don't come to them naturally.
And, of course, BS is not a native speaker of Jordanian, so he does have an excuse.

Daekyras
11-24-2010, 11:14 AM
It is precisely in this area that native speakers of a language have a big advantage over the non-native speakers. Even when the latter know all those alternatives, they don't come to them naturally.
And, of course, BS is not a native speaker of Jordanian, so he does have an excuse.

I think, though I'm not certain, that as RJ came from Charlestown, he spoke American. Duh!

Jonai
11-24-2010, 11:44 AM
Charleston South Carolina. And no, he spoke southern.

Caveatar
11-24-2010, 12:52 PM
Charleston South Carolina. And no, he spoke southern.

Which is not the same at the guy speaks on the network news.

However, RJ did violate the Southern Fairy Tale tradition when he wrote WOT.

Dead mules ok.
But the beginning of a fairy tale or fantasy tale differs for Northerners and Southerners.
A Northern Fairy Tale traditionally begins with "Once upon a time..."
whereas a true Southern Fairy Tale begins
"Y'all ain't gonna believe this shit...":)

Daekyras
11-24-2010, 03:22 PM
Charleston South Carolina. And no, he spoke southern.

ah, charlestown is charleston in english...

Terez
11-24-2010, 03:28 PM
I have heard RJ on audio, and I didn't detect a southern accent of any kind. Harriet has one, but it's an uptown old money kind of southern accent.

jana
11-24-2010, 07:09 PM
I've never considered his accent southern either. He had an anchorman accent, except he enunciated more and sounded smarter because he was.

Dewairah
11-24-2010, 09:43 PM
It is precisely in this area that native speakers of a language have a big advantage over the non-native speakers. Even when the latter know all those alternatives, they don't come to them naturally.
And, of course, BS is not a native speaker of Jordanian, so he does have an excuse.

haha that was poor. :o