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morat'corlm
11-20-2010, 04:49 AM
Here. (https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0ApFWTyzG9G_UdHZCUjQzVGNLeUJyMkUycXkzQlExS FE&output=html)

For the purposes of this proposed calendar I will consider Steve Cooper’s calendar for 1000 NE (http://www.stevenac.net/wot/tl1000.htm#book12) to be complete and correct, with one exception. His notes state that “there is significantly greater uncertainty in the timeline” for TGS (http://www.stevenac.net/wot/wotchron.htm) and as such it must be regarded as more provisional than that for the eleven previous books, but I don’t have time to second-guess him by constructing my own timeline, so this calendar for TOM must be regarded as even more provisional. Still, I attempt as firmly as possible to anchor it to dates “known” for events in previous books, both TGS and KOD, and in one case, COT.

The one exception is Mat’s storyline. Using Cooper’s calendar and the events in TGS20,27-28,34, and 36 on which it is based, Mat married Tuon and sent her back to Ebou Dar on day 761, then met Verin approximately a week later on Cooper day 773 (C773). This is entirely correct so far as it goes, based on the text of TGS; however, it makes the timeline for TOM almost completely untenable, given what we later discover in the timelines of events around Caemlyn, fixed to the ‘anchor dates’ of events in Rand’s and Egwene’s plot arcs. I suspect that this is what Brandon Sanderson meant when he said that Mat is roughly two weeks behind where he was meant to be (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110661&postcount=183) in TGS, which I imagine will be corrected to Mat meeting Verin about a month after marrying Tuon; I date the Band of the Red Hand Traveling to Caemlyn at C793 accordingly. One further reference which will need to be adjusted for this to work is Rand’s Ta’veren Technicolor Telepathy vision of Mat and Thom in Caemlyn on C784 (TGS31), though his accompanying vision of Galad and Perrin works out.

Other notes: There are 10 days to the week and 28 days to the month. This allows me to fix the meeting at Merrilor at C832; Rand had his epiphany on Dragonmount the “late afternoon” of C802, met Almen Bunt the “early afternoon” of C803 after walking down the mountain, and reached Tar Valon the morning of C804.

Events directly anchored to dates from the (provisional) Cooper calendar are given as such; events which can be reasonably extrapolated are marked with a (?); those which are less certain with a (??), and those for which I’m lucky to get the month right with a (???). Important events from previous books are given in plain text.

Much has been said about Rand and Egwene having disappeared for most of the month their plot lines encompass; perhaps nearly as interesting are other holes this reveals–or I created through failure to read properly. Perrin’s first meeting with Galad is anchored at C784 by Rand’s vision; many chapters are anchored by Tam’s departure and Perrin seeing Rand atop Dragonmount; and his battle with Trollocs by the battle in the White Tower. This means, among other things, that Basel Gill was turned toward Lugard long before Graendal came into possession of a Dreamspike, that the interlude between Perrin’s first meeting and second with Galad was 16 days long, and that the delay of Perrin’s trial was a full week long. Mat and Thom’s trip into Ghenjei is also somewhat odd; they clearly departed for it on the day before Merrilor, but multiple anchor events place the expiration of Verin’s 30-day bar days to a week beforehand; given their preparations, their access to Jur Grady for Traveling, and Thom’s anxiousness, what kept them? Elayne takes nearly two weeks after her meetings with the Cairhienin nobles to take the Sun Throne.

And, in what’s clearly a plot line waiting for A Memory of Light, events at the Black Tower have been put on hold. Logain is AWOL for the second consecutive book; the Turning of Tarna Feir and Mezar Kurin almost certainly happened more than a month before Merrilor based on Moridin’s comment that the second dreamspike “is being put to good use”; the Tower embassy has noted no changes several weeks after that when Nynaeve Traveled to acquire Lan’s bond; nothing had developed a single day before Merrilor when Rand sends Naeff to investigate; and Perrin’s planned investigation of the Tower in Tel’aran’rhiod can seemlingly be plotted more than a week before his arrival at Merrilor (alongside Grady, who triggered the plan), with nary a thought.

The chapters seem to progress more or less chronologically within their storyline blocks, with the exception of a jog around 15, 20, 22, 23, 27, and 33 in the Egwene, Gawyn, and Nynaeve chronicles which is somewhat baffling. I suppose the events of Nynaeve’s testing were judged as reading better earlier in the book, disconnected as they largely are from the Mesaana arc. I have placed the (???) events which occur in the same chapter as an anchored event on the same day without any problems I can see.

Finally, I’d like to comment on Lan’s storyline, which from the events of “The Golden Crane” on C745 to his final charge at Tarwin’s Gap, takes 100 days according to Sanderson (https://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcjspjqg_92fxr22nq9)... which makes it coincide with the meeting at Merrilor. The first statement, of course, makes the entire calendar more than a week slow as of the end of TGS, but there's not a great deal I can do about that, so I will use the second value. The vignettes from his plot arc, of course, are all (???) level, except for one.

If anyone has any disagreements or other commentary I’d be happy to discuss.

jana
11-20-2010, 05:37 AM
the Turning of Tarna Feir and Mezar Kurin almost certainly happened more than a month before Merrilor based on Moridin’s comment that the second dreamspike “is being put to good use”;

Do we know when the last time someone Travelled to or from there was?

The timelines were a lot easier when the moon phases were mentioned. (and when people weren't time-travelling)

morat'corlm
11-20-2010, 05:48 AM
The last person (well, non-Darkfriend) to Travel on Black Tower grounds was Androl, "weeks" after Logain left. I suppose Logain was the last definitively timed, on C745. How Mezar was caught isn't clear.

Of course, Logain apparently lied about taking all the bonded Asha'man with him, sez Pevara, so who knows how far his word can be trusted. Or maybe that's just a plot error.

Great Lord of the Dark
11-20-2010, 07:38 AM
Are you assuming that all events are timed to coincide with Merrilor by the end of the book? I could see that maybe the Lan or Arafel segments of the epilogue could be floating either before or after Rand's Merrilor gathering. Similarly, Mat may have exited the Tower of Ghenjei days after he entered - his timeline is now fuzzy until he meets up with someone again. Lastly, the 2nd dreamspike may have been put to good use by giving it to Taim, but he needn't have turned it on until he was darn good and ready, so I don't think the Androl and Pevara scenes have any anchors at all to their timing. They could be a month before or after Merrilor and it would hardly matter.

Great effort. Thanks!

Terez
11-20-2010, 07:42 AM
On the tour it was said that Lan's trek took 100 days and that he was matched up with the other timelines at the end of the book. I'm assuming that Rand's last POV was the night before Lan arrived at Tarwin's Gap on day 845.

I was going to make my own timeline but I figured I'd just wait for Steven Cooper to finish; I sent him the info about Lan from the tour, and he responded to let me know he was done with his casual read and was going back through the books to make notes (that was more than a week ago so he'll probably be done fairly soon).

Jonai
11-20-2010, 07:44 AM
From the looks of things, everybody is matched up with Merrilor except for the Black Tower.

Terez
11-20-2010, 07:46 AM
Right - Brandon said the Black Tower is still behind.

Jonai
11-20-2010, 07:47 AM
Yeah, he's gotta write five BT chapters for the beginning of aMoL. Or at least, that's the impression I got from his comments.

jana
11-20-2010, 07:50 AM
Yeah, he's gotta write five BT chapters for the beginning of aMoL. Or at least, that's the impression I got from his comments.

...before the BT action starts?

I wasn't worried before about having enough room for stuff, but now I am. I really don't want half a book of BT stuff, unless Moiraine is involved.

Jonai
11-20-2010, 07:54 AM
I think the inference was five chapters to catch things up to merrilor, but I could be wrong.

Jonai
11-20-2010, 07:54 AM
I mean, action has to start soon if Taim is gonna get his rolling rings up to Merrilor in time. *wink@terez*

Terez
11-20-2010, 07:56 AM
I really got the impression that Pevara is going to get turned along with everyone else. Originally Brandon wasn't even planning on putting her story in the books at all because he didn't think it would fit. What else would make her plotline so negligible?

jana
11-20-2010, 07:59 AM
I really got the impression that Pevara is going to get turned along with everyone else. Originally Brandon wasn't even planning on putting her story in the books at all because he didn't think it would fit. What else would make her plotline so negligible?

I do want to see a PoV of someone actually getting turned. It would be so effed up if it was her though (unless Nynaeve can fix it later).

Not so sure I think that will happen though. It feels more like Pevara and Androl will work together to do something that doesn't end up with them both turned.

Jonai
11-20-2010, 08:00 AM
Even if it's possible to heal, I think it would be problematic in the extreme, since she won't WANT to be turned back.

alleluia_cone
11-20-2010, 10:13 AM
Originally Brandon wasn't even planning on putting her story in the books at all

Really? As in, not even in AMoL?

because he didn't think it would fit.

Was Brandon given word count limits by the publisher? Because in all honesty, TGS is some 90,000 words less than TSR and ToM is 65,000 less. TSR is, far and away, the most highly regarded book in the series. The other two books of similar length, LoC and TFoH, are also among the fan favorites. So length has never been an issue when it comes to WoT fans; I simply don't get why anything had to be cut at all.

What else would make her plotline so negligible?

I hope that the answer to this question is not that Brandon would have been satisfied with the Black Tower arc being resolved off screen. That doesn't seem likely, but then again, I doubt we'll ever find out what Rand and Egwene were doing during the 25 days or so they weren't shown on screen in ToM.

alleluia_cone
11-20-2010, 10:22 AM
Much has been said about Rand and Egwene having disappeared for most of the month their plot lines encompass

Tell me about it . . . I've yet to hear a reasonable explanation as to what Rand was doing between Day 806 and Day 829 of the timeline, given that he told Egwene he had "so much to do." It also might be nice knowing what the hell was taking all the Amyrlin Seat's time post-Day 811; clearly it wasn't running the army and she never even bothered trying to contact Cadsuane or finding Rand if the book is anything to go by.

TankSpill
11-20-2010, 11:28 AM
I really got the impression that Pevara is going to get turned along with everyone else. Originally Brandon wasn't even planning on putting her story in the books at all because he didn't think it would fit. What else would make her plotline so negligible?

Not to hijack this thread (which, by the way morat'corlm, this is awesome), but God, I hope not. Pevara was really being built up as someone to do some great things, and I really see it more as she and Androl are going to at least start the Black Tower purge (with maybe Logain and/or Rand coming in to help finish it).

Jonai
11-20-2010, 03:57 PM
Considering Pevara's whole familyw as killed by DFs it would somewhat ironic if Taim snuffs her out like a candle. I'll be sad. Go go Pev.

morat'corlm
11-20-2010, 04:25 PM
Something that occurs to me is that it would fix a few of the problems in Mat's plot line if his 30-day bar were to expire right before Merrilor, meaning that Verin's explanation in the letter that she was dead if not back in a day was literally accurate. For one, the problems that were discussed upon the release of The Seven-Striped Lass (Aes Sedai leave upon rumors of Tower reunification, rumors of a raken attack) would be resolved.

Unfortunately, I can't see any way to make that fit with the Elayne plot line, because she makes mention of cloudy skies while watching the prototype dragons being fired. Or, really, with Mat and Perrin's dinner in TOM47.

BiteOnThis
11-20-2010, 07:22 PM
Yeah I had that thought too way back in when the chapter first came out, but it never worked with any timelines.

The way this is is going, we might end up getting an explanation like the Dark One is screwing time up. And frankly I might actually take that.

skaywalker
11-21-2010, 01:39 AM
Maybe Mat's timeline is only 5-8 days behind Rand's in the beginning. When Elayne received the letter from Mat she feels Rand through the bond still in Arad Doman. But it could easily be his last day there.

csarmi
11-21-2010, 02:40 AM
Elayne receives that letter only 10+ days after Mat arrives (he spent a little more than a week in Caemlyn already as of chapter 8)

Squocka
11-21-2010, 08:10 PM
Great timeline but as you said needs some tweaking

What i find interesting is the BT scenario must be completed but Rand not being part of it.

Because Rand sends Naeff the day before going to Merrilor so it is still not fixed up to that point.

I presume then that the Androl 2rivers crew find Logain rescue then mass war which all comes to a head on the day of merrilor. Logain gets his glory and Rand gets a unified BT right when he needs it.

The smoke in caemlyns direction could be BT smoke but i think it is probably both as Merrilor is the start of the LB really

Tarwin/Andor/Blight surge with Borderlanders/ (perhaps a Demandred/Murandy trolloc attack to give the Seanchan someone to fight if you believe that theory)

If im right Rand must be doing some seanchan stuff over the last month or at least Egwene

morat'corlm
11-22-2010, 04:09 AM
Elayne receives that letter only 10+ days after Mat arrives (he spent a little more than a week in Caemlyn already as of chapter 8)I agree that this is a very plausible interpretation of his actions and inhibitions re: the letter in Ch. 8. Unfortunately it introduces its own complications.

I can push Verin's transporting the Band to Caemlyn back to C787, with TOM8-9,11 on C797, TOM17,19 on C798, TOM22-24 on C800, and TOM29 on C801 (the absolute latest it could be). But at Perrin and Mat's meeting on C814 at the earliest, Mat says he hasn't seen Verin "in over two weeks now", while for a 27-day gap you'd expect "for nearly three weeks now" or perhaps "almost a month". It also makes Mat's sitting on his ass until the very day before Merrilor even stranger.

Davian93
11-22-2010, 07:54 AM
Great timeline but as you said needs some tweaking

What i find interesting is the BT scenario must be completed but Rand not being part of it.

Because Rand sends Naeff the day before going to Merrilor so it is still not fixed up to that point.

I presume then that the Androl 2rivers crew find Logain rescue then mass war which all comes to a head on the day of merrilor. Logain gets his glory and Rand gets a unified BT right when he needs it.

The smoke in caemlyns direction could be BT smoke but i think it is probably both as Merrilor is the start of the LB really
Tarwin/Andor/Blight surge with Borderlanders/ (perhaps a Demandred/Murandy trolloc attack to give the Seanchan someone to fight if you believe that theory)

If im right Rand must be doing some seanchan stuff over the last month or at least Egwene


Remember, Elayne allowed the Band to move within a league of Camelyn. Talmanes knows exactly where Camlyn is and exactly where the BT is...he wouldn't make that type of mistake. We're talking barely a couple miles of distance here.

Jonai
11-22-2010, 12:56 PM
Remember, Elayne allowed the Band to move within a league of Camelyn. Talmanes knows exactly where Camlyn is and exactly where the BT is...he wouldn't make that type of mistake. We're talking barely a couple miles of distance here.

This can all be condensed down to: Talmanes is awesome. Remember this is the dude that lead half of what would become the band in the Battle of Cairhien.

Nafro
11-22-2010, 01:05 PM
This can all be condensed down to: Talmanes is awesome. Remember this is the dude that lead half of what would become the band in the Battle of Cairhien.

Nalasean was much, much awesomer.

Jonai
11-22-2010, 01:17 PM
Nalasean was much, much awesomer.

I love Nalesean. In fact, during a certain scene in ToM, I was screaming "For Nalesean you bastard!" Which may have not been the most inconspicuous thing to do at work.

Squocka
11-22-2010, 07:09 PM
Mat says he hasn't seen Verin "in over two weeks now", while for a 27-day gap you'd expect "for nearly three weeks now" or perhaps "almost a month". It also makes Mat's sitting on his ass until the very day before Merrilor even stranger.


Isn't a WOT week 10 days that would make it a bit closer to over two weeks

Davian93
11-22-2010, 07:36 PM
Isn't a WOT week 10 days that would make it a bit closer to over two weeks

Yes. 10 days to a week and 28 days to a month and 13 months to a year.

FelixPax
11-26-2010, 03:45 AM
Question: Is the Steve's timeline absolutely known to be accurate for 'A Crown of Swords' book?

I asked because upon re-reading a old bookstore signing report, a person claimed Robert Jordan said that ACoS timeline is a week long.


Problem is Steve's calendar claims ACoS is 8 days (http://www.stevenac.net/wot/tl1000.htm#book7) in length.
However, a WoT Week is 10 days in length.


RJ has a lot of notes about the series although he doesn't have an
outline. He guesstimates he has about twice as many pages of notes as
manuscript pages.

ACoS only covered a week because a lot of important things needed to
happen in a very short time span. The development of the heroes
characters is some of the important events he wanted to accomplish.
------------------------
Brian Ritchie
gt8782b@prism.gatech.edu


Location: Charleston, South Carolina; 21 June, 1996

Source: http://web.archive.org/web/19981203092205/student-www.uchicago.edu/users/kor2/WOT/ACOS_signings.html
Compiler: rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan and P. Korda / kor2@kimbark.uchicago.edu
Notes Collection Named: Reports from Post-A Crown of Swords Book Signings by Robert Jordan
Most Current WoT Book at the Time: A Crown of Swords book

morat'corlm
11-26-2010, 04:45 AM
The Steve's calendar has ACOS lasting from day 649 to day 659. The headers try to encapsulate the bulk of the book, while chapters from other books within that time are specifically marked as such.

morat'corlm
12-07-2010, 07:11 AM
I finally got around to making an expanded timeline that matches the 100-day requirement for Lan’s ride through the Borderlands (https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=0ApFWTyzG9G_UdHZCUjQzVGNLeUJyMkUycXkzQlExS FE&output=html). I think that Rand and Egwene’s storylines in TGS can be stretched to fit this without too much trouble. Mat and Perrin’s become even worse, though – Mat now spends more than a month longer in Murandy than he claims to have in the first edition of TGS, and Perrin spends “the last several days” playing footsie with Galad while encamped at the statue of the amahn’rukane that turn out to be actually nearly two weeks (his total time beneath the statue is more than forty days). Perrin and Rand have three ta’veren visions of each other at the beginning of that time that cannot be so easily dismissed as Mat’s one, and the end is locked in by Rand’s epiphany atop Dragonmount.

Aviendha’s is really no better; given the 10-day maximum within the columns (is this for the columns as well or just the rings?), she took somewhat longer to make the Rhuidean-Cold Rocks journey alone than Kadere’s mule caravan took in TSR.

GonzoTheGreat
12-07-2010, 08:26 AM
But Kadere is a professional, you know. So it stands to reason that he is good at travelling quickly.

Terez
12-07-2010, 09:09 AM
I think the ten day maximum includes a day of running, but it really only accounts for one trip through the columns.

morat'corlm
01-11-2011, 03:31 AM
So can anyone help me make sense of this? Q: And how much time has past since Mat met Verin and the trio left for the Tower of Ghenjei? 30 days?

Brandon: Mat set aside the letter and didn't open it for the required number of days. The next day he left for the Tower of Ghenjei.

The very latest day Verin could have transported Mat to Caemlyn is the day she died, which coincidentally enough is 30 days exactly before everyone starts arriving at Merrilor at the end of TOM (one day before Rand's planned conference). If that were to be the case, it clears up some problems with the rumors Mat and Thom hear in TOM8, but some new problems are introduced:
TOM17: Mat has a vision of Rand shaving in an ornate chamber, within the three day period he was gone from Tear.
TOM22: Mat has a vision of a grim Rand in a dark room, after he returns to Tear.
TOM29: While the prototype dragon is being tested, the skies are dark, even though it's days after Rand's epiphany. We know that the skies in Caemlyn cleared about the same time as the dragon was being tested.

So it looks like my current estimate for Mat's arrival in Caemlyn carries the preponderance of evidence, but that I was wrong to think Mat sat on his ass for a week after the deadline. If Mat went to the Tower of Ghenjei immediately upon the expiration of his 30-day hold, it looks like Perrin Traveled to Merrilor (minutes after Mat leaves for the Tower) roughly 7 days before Rand and Elayne do; around day 838 by my timeline. That's fair enough.

So what's this about, then?
Blasted colors. Rand was sitting around and talking with some people in a tent.And the next day:
Light guide you, Perrin prayed, raising a hand to the three as they trudged along the river's bank. Moiraine. Perrin should send word to Rand. The colors appeared, showing Rand speaking with a group of Borderlanders.
OK, obviously both visions couldn't refer to Rand's meeting, with Borderlanders, in a tent, near Far Madding in TOM51. But if TOM53 happened seven days before Rand arrived at Merrilor, then neither of them does... so what Borderlanders are they? We know that Rand did not meet the four monarchs until one day before he planned to give the ultimatum:
Tomorrow, I meet with the monarchs of the world. After that, I am going to go to Shayol Ghul and break the remaining seals on the Dark One's prison. Good day.
One more day and it all began.

The updated timing for TOM52-53 places them smack in the middle of the 18½ Day Gap, well before Rand meets the army often described as "the Borderlanders." And they couldn't have been Saldaeans, either: Rand only rescues Maradon one day before his encounter at Far Madding.
Tomorrow I meet with your niece and the other Borderlanders, Bashere. I know not what they will require of me, but they must return to their posts. If Saldaea was in such a state with one of the great captains leading the defense, I can only guess what the other Borderland nations are suffering.
Perhaps my arrival timing is somewhat off, but I can't see a way to push it forward more than a day or two – not five.

So what's going on? Are these some entirely different Borderlanders – perhaps in Shienar? – or a mistake? The former would seem to be ruled out by the last quotation. If the latter, is the mistake with the visions (which have created chronology trouble for BS in the past) or with what he said yesterday?

Weird Harold
01-11-2011, 05:41 AM
The very latest day Verin could have transported Mat to Caemlyn is the day she died,

The very latest that Verin could have transported Mat & co to Caemlyn is the day that Rand saw Mat and Thom in the streets of Caemlyn; Day 787 according to Steve Cooper's placement. (tgs 31) Perrin sees a vision of Rand and Nyneave on a muddy street the same day.

You have Verin and Mat negotiating for transport to Caemlyn on day 807 (TGS 34,36) That has to be backed up at least 20 days to coincide with events in Bandar Eban and Perrin and Galad' timeline.

All of Mat's adventures in Murandy and negotiations with Verin have to happen before the visions of Rand and Perrin synchchronize their timelines with Rand's second or third day in Bandar Eban which also places Mat and Thom in Caemlyn on that day.

Either Rand and Perrin's timelines have to be moved later by twenty days or so or Mat's has to be moved earlier by that much.

Part of the problem with reverse engineering the timeline is that, in chapters like TGS 36, BS put two unsynchronised POVs in the same chapter.

Mat's POV with Verin is before Rand's Vision of Mat and Thom in Caemlyn, but Tuon's (Fortuona's) is clearly several days after that vision because the suggestion of meeting at Falme has just been made and her POV is "a fews days since the meeting with the Dragon Reborn."

morat'corlm
01-11-2011, 06:33 AM
I'm sticking by what I said in the original post; that vision doesn't make sense at all, and has to be ignored to make any sense of the timeline. The same goes for the comment Mat makes that it had been "little under a week they’d spent traveling since sending Tuon back to Ebou Dar" in TGS20 by which Cooper times Mat's arrival in Caemlyn at day 773.

If "the very latest that Verin could have transported Mat & co to Caemlyn is the day that Rand saw Mat and Thom in the streets of Caemlyn; Day 787", then the latest he could have left Caemlyn would be day 818. And we know where Perrin and Grady were on day 818, and it wasn't in Caemlyn to give Mat a lift to Ghenjei. From what we learned in TOM of how his timeline intersects with the other five majors, Mat could not have arrived in Caemlyn on day 773. Mat could not have been in Caemlyn on day 787. My date was extrapolated backward from firmly anchored events, and so could certainly be off by a day or two, but I feel quite confident in asserting that Rand's vision in TGS31 was a plot error.

Weird Harold
01-11-2011, 07:09 AM
I'm sticking by what I said in the original post; that vision doesn't make sense at all, and has to be ignored to make any sense of the timeline.

The signing report (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110661&postcount=183)you linked in the first post says:
He did admit that there has been one “hitch” found in TGS as per chronology that will be changed in upcoming editions. If I remember correctly he said Mat is roughly two weeks behind where he was meant to be and explained that Mat’s position in time at the end of TGS was supposed to be two weeks earlier than it was portrayed as being.

What ever that correction was, it wasn't the vision of "Mat on a horse in a familiar city. Caemlyn?" Or of the vision of Perrin outside a tent with Galad that occured just before the vision of Mat.

The vision of Perrin and Galad and Perrin's return vision earlier inthe day clearly synchronize those two timelines at that point -- If the vision of Mat is what was two weeks off, why wasn't it corrected in the paperback edition?

ETA: If "the very latest that Verin could have transported Mat & co to Caemlyn is the day that Rand saw Mat and Thom in the streets of Caemlyn; Day 787

Perhaps the problem isn't that Mat couldn't have been in Caemlyn on day 787, it is that Rand didn't see Mat and Thom in Caemlyn on that day?

Steve Cooper has been very good at deducing the timeline, but he isn't infallible.

David Selig
01-11-2011, 07:32 AM
If Mat went to the Tower of Ghenjei immediately upon the expiration of his 30-day hold, it looks like Perrin Traveled to Merrilor (minutes after Mat leaves for the Tower) roughly 7 days before Rand and Elayne do; around day 838 by my timeline. That's fair enough.

When Perrin arrived at Merrilor, Faile saw there "A large number of Cairhienin Houses". But Elayne took the Sun Throne and ordered the nobles and their armies to go to Merrilor only one day before Rand's 30 days deadline.

Plus given the Seanchan threat, it's highly unlikely that the Illian and Tairen armies, which were also there when Perrin arrived, would've come so early.

morat'corlm
01-11-2011, 06:02 PM
When Perrin arrived at Merrilor, Faile saw there "A large number of Cairhienin Houses". But Elayne took the Sun Throne and ordered the nobles and their armies to go to Merrilor only one day before Rand's 30 days deadline.

Plus given the Seanchan threat, it's highly unlikely that the Illian and Tairen armies, which were also there when Perrin arrived, would've come so early.You're entirely correct. The problems compound. I guess I'm going to guess that his 30-day schedule is more important, though, and that the Cairhienin, etc., being present is an error.
Perhaps the problem isn't that Mat couldn't have been in Caemlyn on day 787, it is that Rand didn't see Mat and Thom in Caemlyn on that day?

Steve Cooper has been very good at deducing the timeline, but he isn't infallible.Cooper actually has the visions on day 784. I tried to push them forward. Push them forward any more, though, and they'll have to be put in an entirely different scene.

Weird Harold
01-11-2011, 09:34 PM
Cooper actually has the visions on day 784. I tried to push them forward. Push them forward any more, though, and they'll have to be put in an entirely different scene.

Perhaps your problem is that you're dismissing explicit devices to synchronze timelines as errors because they conflict with your assumptions?

Whatever day those visions happened on, they DID happen on the same day.

One thing that might be causing the confliction is Rand's assumption that he saw Mat and Thom in Caemlyn -- I can't think of any other major city they visited before Verin transported them to Caemlyn, but Brandon's comment about Mat being mounted in the vision but not in ToM-8 suggests that either Mat did ride his horse into Caemlyn at some point in ToM or that Mat and Thom visit Cairhein or other city that would be familiar to Rand where that vision can synchronize the timeline.

As for the horse riding in Caemlyn, I asked him specifically about Rand seeing Mat and Thom on horses in Caemlyn, but Mat in Chapter 8 not taking his horse into the city, and he responded by saying that Rand didn’t see Mat in this specific scene and assured me that all that would work out in the rest of the book. (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110661&postcount=183)

Unfortunately, I don't have access to ToM or any online resource that has been updated fully to ToM -- like the EncyclopediaWOT. :(

FWIW, eWOT's plotline graph is useful, but I think can be misleading to chronologists :D Perhaps something similar can be constructed without trying to date points to show the relative positioning of events?

morat'corlm
01-11-2011, 10:27 PM
Perhaps your problem is that you're dismissing explicit devices to synchronze timelines as errors because they conflict with your assumptions?Yes, I am. And I will continue to do so so long as the author includes devices that are self-contradictory.either Mat did ride his horse into Caemlyn at some point in ToM or that Mat and Thom visit Cairhein or other city that would be familiar to Rand where that vision can synchronize the timeline.Mat was necessarily tramping around the Murandian wilderness at that time; it's a large gap in Mat's plot line that's required to bring him up to speed.FWIW, eWOT's plotline graph is useful, but I think can be misleading to chronologists :DI haven't been using it. Other than Steven Cooper's base timeline, the only source I've used has been Sanderson's books themselves.

Back on topic, it just occurred to me that the Cairhienin at Merrilor could be Dobraine's men. It seems unlikely, and David Selig's point about the Illianers and Tairens stands, but that's the only way Sanderson could possibly reconcile the timing of TOM53 with his recent statement. Any theories about who the Borderlanders were?

Weird Harold
01-11-2011, 11:44 PM
Yes, I am. And I will continue to do so so long as the author includes devices that are self-contradictory.

Mat was necessarily tramping around the Murandian wilderness at that time; ...

No, you're making an erroneous asssumption because canon says Mat was riding through a city similar to Caemlyn with Thom at that exact moment, which can be corelated with Rand's second day in Bandar Eban and Perrin's first meeting with Galad.

Brandon says he is working to a strict timeline and that a correction of two weeks would bemade in "future editiond" -- such as the paperback edition wich came out two months later without a change to those visions.

Given a conflict between your assumptions and printed canon I'll go with the printed canon every time, no matter what apparent conflict there might be.

morat'corlm
01-12-2011, 02:21 AM
Canon says several things which are mutually contradictory, as I and others have explained several times. In order to construct any coherent timeline some parts of canon in TGS and TOM, as well as commentary from Sanderson, will have to be discarded; I am trying to do so as parsimoniously as possible. I consider that adequately established. If you disagree with my logic, I can accept that, but without evidence of compatibility it is not going to change how I construct this particular timeline. If you have that evidence, please, show us what the proper dates are. If not, well, it seems I've failed to convince you, and faith is not going to convince me.

Weird Harold
01-12-2011, 04:19 AM
Canon says several things which are mutually contradictory, as I and others have explained several times. In order to construct any coherent timeline some parts of canon in TGS and TOM, as well as commentary from Sanderson, will have to be discarded; I am trying to do so as parsimoniously as possible. I consider that adequately established. If you disagree with my logic, I can accept that, but without evidence of compatibility it is not going to change how I construct this particular timeline. If you have that evidence, please, show us what the proper dates are. If not, well, it seems I've failed to convince you, and faith is not going to convince me.
Perhaps sometime in the future when I have the resources, I might be able to give you more precise critiques.