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Caveatar
11-22-2010, 02:32 PM
OK. Now that Thom and Moiraine have had their cup of tea down at the Ghenjei Towers Riverside Resort...
Will she tell him the names of the Reds who stilled his nephew Owen and left him to the 'mercies' of his neighbors?
She said she would tell him when she saw him again and cited her oaths.

Will they include Galina, Elaida and (I hope) Rubinde, the beyotch who tried to hurt Nynaeve in the Shawl Test?
Will Thom borrow Mat's medallion and take a little jaunt to the White Tower and kill everyone involved?
I personally would give the old geezer a License to Kill as Agent 0065(years and some months) and a weapons allowance plus per diem to do just that.

Anybody else want 'em 'ded', 'daid', 'dead'?
Or perhaps they should just be Stilled and left to scream themselves to death.
Moiraine and her bracelet could probably accomplish that easily enough.

jana
11-22-2010, 02:42 PM
I think nothing will come of this, which is unfortunate because I would have loved to read it.

Most/all of the hated Red Ajah in the series are dead, enslaved, turned, soon to be turned, or Black Ajah (so they'll die anyway).

Nafro
11-22-2010, 02:44 PM
Its going to be saved for an outrigger novel. Strangely, it will highly resemble the end of Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back. Thom and Moiraine will travel Randland, knocking on Red Ajah doors.

dfchang813
11-22-2010, 02:48 PM
However, this has been a gun on the mantlepiece since book 4.

If nothing else, Sanderson and Team Jordan have demonstrated a pretty impressive fidelity to details in the series. You can argue that not ALL details have been resolved with the depth and satisfaction some of us may have hoped for (i.e. some have been undewhelmed with Nicola and Carlinya's deaths etc) but they WERE remembed and addressed.

Even if Thom only gets his hands on a few of the surviving Red Sisters, it would be worth in my opinion. Also it doesn't have to be a big, grand to-do. Thom rather casually arranged a few "accidental" deaths of the Tear High Lords plotting treason against Rand which Moiraine rather neatly summarized in only a few paragraphs.

Oh . . . and I think Thom is more than capable of having the Red Sisters get their just desserts with no physical show of force required. As Moiraine foreshadowed in The Shadow Rising, a great player of Daes Dae Mar only needs the names . . . little more.

Dennis

jana
11-22-2010, 03:03 PM
I still don't see it happening. The Reds that are around are either "good" or not important enough to spare words on. I don't even remember the names of the "bad" ones that aren't already in terrible situations. I didn't remember Rubinde until this thread. I suppose he could do something to her but who else is there?

Toveine, Elaida, Galina, Katrina, etc. were the obvious ones. Toveine is bonded to Logain, so I don't think much more will be done to her.


Tarna, Pevara, Silviana, and Teslyn are obviously innocent.

Marie Curie 7
11-22-2010, 03:11 PM
OK. Now that Thom and Moiraine have had their cup of tea down at the Ghenjei Towers Riverside Resort...
Will she tell him the names of the Reds who stilled his nephew Owen and left him to the 'mercies' of his neighbors?
She said she would tell him when she saw him again and cited her oaths.

Will they include Galina, Elaida and (I hope) Rubinde, the beyotch who tried to hurt Nynaeve in the Shawl Test?

Well, first, Rubinde is a Green, not a Red.

Second, I would expect that the names Moiraine gives Thom would include at least those names that Siuan fed to Logain:

TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 8 - The Storm Gathers

For his part, Logain appeared to flourish under all those stares. A tall man with curling hair that touched his broad shoulders, dark and handsome if hard of face, he looked as proud and confident as an eagle. It was a promise of vengeance that put the light in his eyes, though. If he could not repay everyone he wanted to, he could at least repay some. "Six Red sisters found me in Cosamelle about a year before I proclaimed myself," he said as Nynaeve came in. "Javindhra, the leader was called, though one named Barasine talked a good deal. And I heard Elaida mentioned, as if she knew what these were about. They found me asleep, and I thought I was done when they shielded me."

And while the story Logain told was made up, I imagine the names were probably based on a grain of truth of what Moiraine and Siuan had learned of the Vileness. Interestingly, Barasine is now a Sitter for the Red, and Javindhra was, until her extended trip to the Black Tower with Pevara and company.

Finally, while Elaida might be one of the names (since it is one that Logain mentioned), Elaida was actually said to have been only minimally involved. That's one of the reasons that she was never exiled for her part in the Vileness - only the Sitters for the Red at the time were exiled (Lirene, Toveine, and Tsutama):

DragonCon 4 September 2005 - Emma reporting

Frenzy: Elaida slipped through the cracks uncaught by the Red Ajah scheme twenty years ago, called the Vileness. How did Elaida and Galina for that matter manage to slip through when three Sitters did not?

Jordan: Elaida slipped through largely because she was minimally involved. Galina slipped through because there were enough Red sisters involved, at various levels that taking them all down would have decimated the Red Ajah. The decision was made to punish the Ajah by exiling the Sitters, take off the top. And it was supposed to be a life exile, you are out of here forever. The only reason they were not stilled was that the Tower was trying to hide what happened - it was a major atrocity carried out in the name of the Tower, and it didn't matter whether the Tower as a whole really wanted it or not, it was still a major atrocity and the Tower was at the heart of it.

WinespringBrother
11-22-2010, 03:27 PM
I'm curious as to how and why Moiraine obtained that information in the first place. There is no evidence she spent a lot of time in Caemlyn around that time. It's possible she got the information from Siuan, or her eyes and ears, though that then leaves the question of when she got this information.

Though the "why" could be her obvious interest in male channelers, she apparently has done nothing with this information except use it as a bribe to Thom.

It would be nice to have these loose ends tied up. I just hope Thom doesn't get obsessed with revenge, especially with the Last Battle looming.

alleluia_cone
11-22-2010, 03:43 PM
I've never seen the Red Ajah exclusively guilty of anything really. All those male channelers had to be gentled, even if not done according to protocol. The greatest sin of the Red Ajah is that they didn't care for the males following gentling, but the other Ajahs I see as being equally culpable in that regard.

In my mind, the Red Ajah only did half of what their assigned task should have been. It was not enough that they gentle male channelers. They should have taken all those males as Warders in the same manner as Myrelle and used the same methods to keep them alive. They should have also probably reproduced as much as possible in order to keep the channeling population up to appropriate levels.

I recognize this would have required great sacrifice and would in some ways qualify as the Red Ajah prostituting itself, but had they taken on this burden then they really would have been the greatest Ajah of them all instead of just thinking that they are.

dominominic
11-22-2010, 04:15 PM
I've never seen the Red Ajah exclusively guilty of anything really. All those male channelers had to be gentled, even if not done according to protocol. The greatest sin of the Red Ajah is that they didn't care for the males following gentling, but the other Ajahs I see as being equally culpable in that regard.

In my mind, the Red Ajah only did half of what their assigned task should have been. It was not enough that they gentle male channelers. They should have taken all those males as Warders in the same manner as Myrelle and used the same methods to keep them alive. They should have also probably reproduced as much as possible in order to keep the channeling population up to appropriate levels.

I recognize this would have required great sacrifice and would in some ways qualify as the Red Ajah prostituting itself, but had they taken on this burden then they really would have been the greatest Ajah of them all instead of just thinking that they are.

This is the first thing I've read on Theoryland where I'm not sure if the poster is serious or not.

arioch
11-22-2010, 04:16 PM
If Javindhra was one of those involved she's going to be around Caemlyn for the foreseeable future ... which is where Mat's Moiraine rescue party will be headed towards very soon.

Jonai
11-22-2010, 04:18 PM
This is the first thing I've read on Theoryland where I'm not sure if the poster is serious or not.

I can just see guys lining up and saying, I don't want a green, I demand red.

arioch
11-22-2010, 04:20 PM
I can just see guys lining up and saying, I don't want a green, I demand red.

I want a red because reds are freakier and more likely to have pillowfriends to bring into the relationship. Greens will just stick you into a male harem.

alleluia_cone
11-22-2010, 04:25 PM
This is the first thing I've read on Theoryland where I'm not sure if the poster is serious or not.

No, I'm dead serious. The way things were before, gentling men was the equivalent to killing them. Myrelle has shown her methods are effective on those with death sentences, albeit, of different type, so I think they should have at least been tried. And what if they actually worked?

This would have solved the problem of the declining population of female channelers as well as the gentling problem in one stroke. Although, and I recognize this, it would have taken a huge sacrifice on the part of the Red Ajah to carry out this plan; there is also the matter of whether the gentled males themselves would have agreed to have sex with the Aes Sedai.

dominominic
11-22-2010, 04:34 PM
No, I'm dead serious. The way things were before, gentling men was the equivalent to killing them. Myrelle has shown her methods are effective on those with death sentences, albeit, of different type, so I think they should have at least been tried. And what if they actually worked?

This would have solved the problem of the declining population of female channelers as well as the gentling problem in one stroke. Although, and I recognize this, it would have taken a huge sacrifice on the part of the Red Ajah to carry out this plan; there is also the matter of whether the gentled males themselves would have agreed to have sex with the Aes Sedai.

Well they can be compelled through the bond. It's a bit late for morals half way through a forced breeding program!

Kimon
11-22-2010, 04:36 PM
I'm curious as to how and why Moiraine obtained that information in the first place. There is no evidence she spent a lot of time in Caemlyn around that time. It's possible she got the information from Siuan, or her eyes and ears, though that then leaves the question of when she got this information.

Though the "why" could be her obvious interest in male channelers, she apparently has done nothing with this information except use it as a bribe to Thom.

It would be nice to have these loose ends tied up. I just hope Thom doesn't get obsessed with revenge, especially with the Last Battle looming.

Considering the fact that the Vileness was largely aimed at the NS plot to hunt down and kill possible Dragon Reborns, likely Moiraine and Siuan took the effort to find out those who were involved since they would be prime candidates either for suspicion of being black, or of being pawns of the black- as were those reds who Chesmal tricked into murdering Sierin.

Most of the ringleaders of the Vileness were probably not black. Certainly Lirene, Tsutama, and Toveine all appear very much in the clear. Likewise for Elaida. We know that Galina was involved, and that she is black. Katerine was probably involved, likewise for Duhara (Has Egwene ever thought to tell Elayne that Duhara is black? It certainly doesn't seem like it considering what went down in the cells for Elayne, not to mention the presumed success of the shadowspawn infiltration of Caemlyn.). That leaves Javindhra, about whom at this point it would almost seem incomprehensible for her to not be black.

alleluia_cone
11-22-2010, 04:45 PM
Well they can be compelled through the bond. It's a bit late for morals half way through a forced breeding program!

No, I didn't make myself really clear. It wouldn't be forced. Assuming the males were willing and it was shown to work, the Red Ajah and consenting males could enter into these arrangements. For those not willing, the Red Ajah should have done everything in its power to focus them on something else. My whole point is that if the Red Ajah's true aim was to deal with male channelers, this encompassed more than simply gentling them; that was only half the job. The other half was getting them to survive. I only used sex as a possibility because Myrelle has shown this might be a promising avenue to sorting out the problem, as well as having the added bonus of fixing the dwindling population of female channelers.

dominominic
11-22-2010, 04:56 PM
No, I didn't make myself really clear. It wouldn't be forced. Assuming the males were willing and it was shown to work, the Red Ajah and consenting males could enter into these arrangements. For those not willing, the Red Ajah should have done everything in its power to focus them on something else. My whole point is that if the Red Ajah's true aim was to deal with male channelers, this encompassed more than simply gentling them; that was only half the job. The other half was getting them to survive. I only used sex as a possibility because Myrelle has shown this might be a promising avenue to sorting out the problem, as well as having the added bonus of fixing the dwindling population of female channelers.

It would have to be forced, from the bonding down. I think it would be an ugly situation all the way through.

It might work though...

David Selig
11-22-2010, 05:14 PM
Makes more sense if the bonding and the sex part of the job is given the Greens, they are the experts in both areas among the Aes Sedai after all.

dominominic
11-22-2010, 05:18 PM
Makes more sense if the bonding and the sex part of the job is given the Greens, they are the experts in both areas among the Aes Sedai after all.

Now are you being serious? I still have a problem with this forced bonding thing but maybe I'm the only one.

Sooner1222
11-22-2010, 05:18 PM
I really don't see this being addressed in the last book for a few reasons:

1. The Last Battle will be in the forefront.
2. The Light side needs all channelers available to fight Shadowspawn/Dreadlords.
3. The last book still has to resolve many more important plots, I just don't think there is room.

BS flat out said that not all the plotlines would be wrapped up. This one seems like a prime candidate to get 86ed.

David Selig
11-22-2010, 05:32 PM
Now are you being serious? I still have a problem with this forced bonding thing but maybe I'm the only one.
Yes. I am not sure if the plan would've worked, but it would've been worth a shot, and greens would be the most fitted for this part of it.

Forced bonding is OK in my book as a last resort attempt to save a life.

Crispin's Crispian
11-22-2010, 06:16 PM
Considering the fact that the Vileness was largely aimed at the NS plot to hunt down and kill possible Dragon Reborns, likely Moiraine and Siuan took the effort to find out those who were involved since they would be prime candidates either for suspicion of being black, or of being pawns of the black- as were those reds who Chesmal tricked into murdering Sierin.

Most of the ringleaders of the Vileness were probably not black. Certainly Lirene, Tsutama, and Toveine all appear very much in the clear. Likewise for Elaida. We know that Galina was involved, and that she is black. Katerine was probably involved, likewise for Duhara (Has Egwene ever thought to tell Elayne that Duhara is black? It certainly doesn't seem like it considering what went down in the cells for Elayne, not to mention the presumed success of the shadowspawn infiltration of Caemlyn.). That leaves Javindhra, about whom at this point it would almost seem incomprehensible for her to not be black.

It would make a pretty big impact if Elaida was involved, and Moiraine told that to Thom. There's at leave an even chance that Tuon is going to keep Elaida close, and if that happens there's a decent chance that Thom could encounter her if the Happy Couple is hanging out with Mat.

Hell, why don't we throw it all in. Thom is going to save the world via his last minute vengeance on Elaida, who was just about to kill a bunch of our heroes on Tuon's order.

Yeaaaahh... :cool:

jana
11-22-2010, 08:15 PM
If it's addressed at all in the book, I'm guessing it will be in the part at the end where we find out what everyone is going to end up doing with their lives.


Nothing Thom can do would be worse than what Elaida is going through right now.

Thanks to Marie I finally recognize some of the names though. But Barasine is still a miniscule character. It's just not a good "story" to obsess on it, because the average reader doesn't give a crap about Barasine or her comeuppance.

In a mirror world, Thom rescues Moiraine in book 6 and together they take out Elaida, Galina, and Katerine :). I'd pay good money to read that.

morat'corlm
11-22-2010, 08:20 PM
Nothing Thom can do would be worse than what Elaida is going through right now.He could turn her over to Egwene. I'm pretty sure that would be worse.

metaphor
11-22-2010, 08:23 PM
Isn't the current head of the Reds one of those who were involved with the illegal gentlings?
But I don't think anything will happen at this point. The relevance of that subplot has been surpassed by the events.
And even if Jordan had planned for something BS would probable have to leave it out of the books for lack of space.





I wonder if all the things that RJ had planned but couldn't be written in a book, like for instance events in the future, will be summarized somewhere, for instance in an Encyclopedia of the Wheel of Time.

jana
11-22-2010, 08:29 PM
He could turn her over to Egwene. I'm pretty sure that would be worse.

It would definitely be more shaming. Being a damane would be humiliating, but nobody in Ebou Dar knows her.

On a mostly unrelated note, I always feel bad for Teslyn when I read the scene where Mat comes into her room and she thinks he's there to make fun of her. Then three minutes later she's trying to tell him how to dress.

Caveatar
11-22-2010, 09:23 PM
It would definitely be more shaming. Being a damane would be humiliating, but nobody in Ebou Dar knows her.

On a mostly unrelated note, I always feel bad for Teslyn when I read the scene where Mat comes into her room and she thinks he's there to make fun of her. Then three minutes later she's trying to tell him how to dress.

But didn't you like where she threw a tentfull of crap at the gholam while Mat was fighting it. Methiniks Teslyn sorta has a liking for Mat. :D

jana
11-22-2010, 09:28 PM
But didn't you like where she threw a tentfull of crap at the gholam while Mat was fighting it. Methiniks Teslyn sorta has a liking for Mat. :D

I adore Teslyn

Davian93
11-22-2010, 09:29 PM
But didn't you like where she threw a tentfull of crap at the gholam while Mat was fighting it. Methiniks Teslyn sorta has a liking for Mat. :D

Teslyn does really like and respect Mat...in a non-sick way. She's one of the good AS overall.

Jonai
11-22-2010, 10:08 PM
I think a good many of you doubt Thom's ingenuity. I do think the reds will pay, and I think it will go something like this:

Thom will transform into Shinobi-Thom, complete with authentic ninja headdress. He will proceed to then hunt his targets down, and bury a kunai of Owein's vengence +3 in a non-lethal spot of the Red's anatomy. Once disabled he will launch into the complete Good'kind and Kevin'a'Anderson cycles. If that's not enough he will launch into recently composed 'Siuan Song,' singing the praises of the Red Ajah's most hated fellow Aes Sedai. At this point if the poor fools haven't embraced death yet, Logain and Siuan will enter for a duet (with instrumental accompaniment by Thom) of "Better dead than Red."

Believe you me, these poor biddies (Elaida included) can suffer more.

And yes, Tessie is awesome.

Marie Curie 7
11-22-2010, 10:28 PM
I've never seen the Red Ajah exclusively guilty of anything really. All those male channelers had to be gentled, even if not done according to protocol. The greatest sin of the Red Ajah is that they didn't care for the males following gentling, but the other Ajahs I see as being equally culpable in that regard.

Yeah, they were supposed to be gentled, but the point is that Tower Law required them to be brought to the Tower before gentling. So the fact that the Reds were taking matters into their own hands and gentling men on the spot was an issue.

In my mind, the Red Ajah only did half of what their assigned task should have been. It was not enough that they gentle male channelers. They should have taken all those males as Warders in the same manner as Myrelle and used the same methods to keep them alive. They should have also probably reproduced as much as possible in order to keep the channeling population up to appropriate levels.

I recognize this would have required great sacrifice and would in some ways qualify as the Red Ajah prostituting itself, but had they taken on this burden then they really would have been the greatest Ajah of them all instead of just thinking that they are.

That gentled male channelers should be required to bear children had been previously suggested. It was referred to as the "Whites' mad plan", and was obviously not well received:

TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 31 - Assurances

"Not coincidental at all," Verin replied. "Ah, the tea water is ready." The water subsided from a boil as she began to bustle about, tossing a handful of leaves into the kettle, directing Faile to find metal cups in one of the bundles against the wall. Alanna, with her arms folded beneath her breasts, never took her eyes off Perrin, their heat conflicting with the coolness of her face. "Year by year," Verin continued, "we find fewer and fewer girls who can be taught to channel. Sheriam believes we may have spent the last three thousand years culling the ability out of humankind by gentling every man who can channel we find. The proof of it, she says, is how very few men we do find. Why, even a hundred years ago the records say there were two or three a year, and five hundred years "

Alanna harrumphed. "What else can we do, Verin? Let them go insane? Follow the Whites' mad plan?"

"I think not," Verin replied calmly. "Even if we could find women willing to bear children by gentled men, there is no guarantee the children would be able to channel, or would be girls. I did suggest that if they wanted to increase the stock, Aes Sedai should be the ones to have the children; themselves, in fact, since they put it forward in the first place. Alviarin was not amused."

Verin even suggested that Aes Sedai be the ones to bear the children. But you also have to factor into the equation that the Aes Sedai had to spend decades if not centuries after the start of the Breaking dealing with the impacts of insane male channelers on the world. And after that, it was probably all they could do to assist in stabilizing the return of any sort of order and civilization to the world. So, it's really not a surprise that it was millenia before it was realized what was going on with respect to the loss of channelers in the world.

Marie Curie 7
11-22-2010, 11:02 PM
I want a red because reds are freakier and more likely to have pillowfriends to bring into the relationship. Greens will just stick you into a male harem.

I really hope this was not meant to be even remotely serious.

Thanks to Marie I finally recognize some of the names though. But Barasine is still a miniscule character. It's just not a good "story" to obsess on it, because the average reader doesn't give a crap about Barasine or her comeuppance.

Ah, but to me those 'miniscule' characters are one of the things that makes WoT so special. Anyway, Barasine is one of those who helped to capture Egwene when she converted the harbor chain to cuendillar. Barasine tried to keep Egwene's Great Serpent ring, and she's one of the Reds who helped dose Egwene with forkroot during her captivity. So, I was a little surprised when we learned in TOM that Barasine had been named a Red Sitter.

Isn't the current head of the Reds one of those who were involved with the illegal gentlings?

Yeah, Tsutama, who is currently Highest of the Red Ajah, was one of the Sitters at the time of the Vileness and she was exiled as a result.

But I don't think anything will happen at this point. The relevance of that subplot has been surpassed by the events.
And even if Jordan had planned for something BS would probable have to leave it out of the books for lack of space.

I wonder if all the things that RJ had planned but couldn't be written in a book, like for instance events in the future, will be summarized somewhere, for instance in an Encyclopedia of the Wheel of Time.

BS has previously indicated that RJ left instructions about which subplots would be wrapped up, and which ones would be left hanging at the end of the series.

I adore Teslyn

I do, too.

jana
11-22-2010, 11:09 PM
Ah, but to me those 'miniscule' characters are one of the things that makes WoT so special. Anyway, Barasine is one of those who helped to capture Egwene when she converted the harbor chain to cuendillar. Barasine tried to keep Egwene's Great Serpent ring, and she's one of the Reds who helped dose Egwene with forkroot during her captivity. So, I was a little surprised when we learned in TOM that Barasine had been named a Red Sitter.

I do too. I just think compared to the Last Battle these things are going to be shoved down. I would have preferred 15/16 books so we could read about all of them. I always wanted to read more about Ryma... even though there's nothing left of her. I wanted her to be rescued =oP. I also want to know more about Elyas and his Aes Sedai.

alleluia_cone
11-22-2010, 11:56 PM
Yeah, they were supposed to be gentled, but the point is that Tower Law required them to be brought to the Tower before gentling. So the fact that the Reds were taking matters into their own hands and gentling men on the spot was an issue.

I'm well aware of the procedure which is why I stated that they didn't follow protocol. That being said, I don't see a whole lot morally wrong with what the Red Ajah did in comparison to established protocol. All the male channelers they gentled were, in fact, male channelers; they would have been gentled one way or another. The one thing that can be said is that they left them at the mercy of townspeople when they gentled them instead of offering them the respite of someone like Logain. But this is all delusion anyway; they might as well have killed them on the spot, it would have been more merciful than a slow suicide.

That gentled male channelers should be required to bear children had been previously suggested. It was referred to as the "Whites' mad plan", and was obviously not well received:

I'm well aware of this as well, but my point is that the Aes Sedai were wrong. They should have mated with male channelers if possible. And if the Red Ajah were going to take on the responsibility of gentling males then they are the ones that should have bonded them and tried to build relationships with them, whether platonic or not.

Verin even suggested that Aes Sedai be the ones to bear the children. But you also have to factor into the equation that the Aes Sedai had to spend decades if not centuries after the start of the Breaking dealing with the impacts of insane male channelers on the world. And after that, it was probably all they could do to assist in stabilizing the return of any sort of order and civilization to the world. So, it's really not a surprise that it was millenia before it was realized what was going on with respect to the loss of channelers in the world.

I do factor this issue into consideration but the fact is, it eventually became quite apparent at some point that the Aes Sedai were literally killing the ability to channel out of the population. Moreover, once gentled the males were only a danger to themselves. From the very beginning the Red Ajah should have built relationships with them; this was as much their duty as gentling them was.

arioch
11-23-2010, 12:02 AM
I really hope this was not meant to be even remotely serious.

It gets pretty hard to tell, right? I'm half joking. I wouldn't want to be a Green's Warder.

GonzoTheGreat
11-23-2010, 04:49 AM
Thom could put it into song, and thus let the whole world find out about it. That'd annoy the AS far more than any mere killings ever could, and thus be far better vengeance.

Grig
11-23-2010, 10:29 AM
I'm well aware of the procedure which is why I stated that they didn't follow protocol. That being said, I don't see a whole lot morally wrong with what the Red Ajah did in comparison to established protocol. All the male channelers they gentled were, in fact, male channelers; they would have been gentled one way or another.

You are, of course, aware that the reason the male channelers are to be brought to Tar Valon according to law is to determine if they are the Dragon Reborn? So yes, there is a lot "morally wrong" with what they did, as it could have very well resulted in killing the Dragon Reborn and screwing over the world for an Age or two. The fact that they didn't succeed isn't mitigation for the potential ramifications of their actions. This is, of course, a moot point from the POV of men who are not the Dragon Reborn, but the actions undertaken were in no way morally neutral or morally good.

WinespringBrother
11-23-2010, 10:34 AM
You are, of course, aware that the reason the male channelers are to be brought to Tar Valon according to law is to determine if they are the Dragon Reborn? So yes, there is a lot "morally wrong" with what they did, as it could have very well resulted in killing the Dragon Reborn and screwing over the world for an Age or two. The fact that they didn't succeed isn't mitigation for the potential ramifications of their actions. This is, of course, a moot point from the POV of men who are not the Dragon Reborn, but the actions undertaken were in no way morally neutral or morally good.

How do they do that (check if someone is the Dragon Reborn)? Check their birth certificates? Is there any quotes backing this up that they do this background research (for example, before gentling Logain-there is nothing in the books to support that Siuan knew Moiraine already found Rand before this)? It makes sense, but Aes Sedai don't always act in a way that is sensible to us.

alleluia_cone
11-23-2010, 10:35 AM
You are, of course, aware that the reason the male channelers are to be brought to Tar Valon according to law is to determine if they are the Dragon Reborn? So yes, there is a lot "morally wrong" with what they did, as it could have very well resulted in killing the Dragon Reborn and screwing over the world for an Age or two. The fact that they didn't succeed isn't mitigation for the potential ramifications of their actions. This is, of course, a moot point from the POV of men who are not the Dragon Reborn, but the actions undertaken were in no way morally neutral or morally good.

I'm pretty certain the Red Ajah was completely unaware that the Dragon Reborn was out there at the time if the time periods do, in fact, coexist. Moreover, had they brought the men in question to the White Tower, even if one of them had been Rand al'Thor, he still would have been gentled because there would have been no evidence that he was the Dragon Reborn. He would have never achieved any of the prophecies at that point. There is no difference had he been gentled on the spot or brought to the Tower to be gentled with the exception that he would not have been stoned to death by the people around him had he been gentled on the spot; although, as I stated above, this would have almost been a mercy instead of a painful, slow suicide at the Tower.

Davian93
11-23-2010, 10:39 AM
How do they do that (check if someone is the Dragon Reborn)? Check their birth certificates? Is there any quotes backing this up that they do this background research (for example, before gentling Logain-there is nothing in the books to support that Siuan knew Moiraine already found Rand before this)? It makes sense, but Aes Sedai don't always act in a way that is sensible to us.

Exactly...I've NEVER heard of a quote backing that statement up.

alleluia_cone
11-23-2010, 11:17 AM
How do they do that (check if someone is the Dragon Reborn)? Check their birth certificates? Is there any quotes backing this up that they do this background research (for example, before gentling Logain-there is nothing in the books to support that Siuan knew Moiraine already found Rand before this)? It makes sense, but Aes Sedai don't always act in a way that is sensible to us.

Wait, so are you telling me that Rand didn't have a dragon tattooed on his ass at birth?

WinespringBrother
11-23-2010, 11:21 AM
Wait, so are you telling me that Rand didn't have a dragon tattooed on his ass at birth?

That wouldn't have been wise, especially if Nynaeve turned out to be a darkfriend :P

Caveatar
11-23-2010, 11:30 AM
Wait, so are you telling me that Rand didn't have a dragon tattooed on his ass at birth?

Nah. That was a frostbite scar from being left in the snow on Dragonmount
Nynaeve healed it up with braid-tugs, sniffs, arm-folding and cosmetic surgery while babysitting.

Jonai
11-23-2010, 11:38 AM
Nah. That was a frostbite scar from being left in the snow on Dragonmount
Nynaeve healed it up with braid-tugs, sniffs, arm-folding and cosmetic surgery while babysitting.

She's very talented.

mokaloka99
11-23-2010, 03:50 PM
Moraine is going to tell thom the list and most of them will be dead, or missing EXCEPT - Cadsuane.

Yep thats right, she will be on the list and we will have a chapter dedicated to Thom killing her. It will be great.

WinespringBrother
11-23-2010, 03:59 PM
Moraine is going to tell thom the list and most of them will be dead, or missing EXCEPT - Cadsuane.

Yep thats right, she will be on the list and we will have a chapter dedicated to Thom killing her. It will be great.

She didn't abuse or mistreat male channelers though, at least not Lord Algarin's brother (KOD)

jana
11-23-2010, 04:01 PM
She didn't abuse or mistreat male channelers though, at least not Lord Algarin's brother (KOD)

nah. The further we go away from books 7-11 Cadsuane, the more I miss her. I really liked her when she wasn't slapping Rand.

alleluia_cone
11-23-2010, 04:16 PM
She didn't abuse or mistreat male channelers though, at least not Lord Algarin's brother (KOD)

What about Rand?

arioch
11-23-2010, 04:18 PM
What about Rand?

Are you really going to call that mistreatment because, really

alleluia_cone
11-23-2010, 04:26 PM
Are you really going to call that mistreatment because, really

Only joking. :D