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Bladesoar
11-22-2010, 07:23 PM
I know this has been addressed in other threads, but I'm trying to gather information for this topic.

So even though we have very little information regarding this topic, I have a strong feeling regarding these "red-veiled aiel." Many people have suggested different ideas on who these people are and where they came from, so I would like to say what I believe in and why.

Some of you guys have suggested that these are Aiel dreadlords--- darkfriend Aiel who can channel. Others have suggested they are simply darkfriend Aiel. Others say they are remnants of the Jenn Aiel. Still others say they are not Aiel at all. Some have suggested these are Darkfriends or dreadlords that Demandred has recruited from the Land of Madmen. Others have suggested Sea Folk. And other have suggested Shara. Personally, I don't think they are Aiel. I think they are from Shara.

Before I go into why I think they are from Shara, I want to refresh your memory of the scene where we meet these "red-veiled Aiel." It's the only scene we have of them, and what a cliffhanger this is. This is all we have to go with.

"They were men, wearing red veils over their faces. They walked at a crouch, scanning the terrain, short spears worn on their backs."

So at first glance, you might think apart from the red-veils, these are definitely Aiel. They are sneaky, like the Aiel, weary of their surroundings, scanning the terrain, like the Aiel. And to top it all off, they have spears on their backs. Woah! Ok, so here's the thing. The Aiels' veils were red, for one. Also, the one specific Aiel described had "dark eyes [that] were glassy and hard." So automatically we know (as has been discussed before), Aiel don't have dark eyes! This is wrong! Also, I'm inclined to believe that even if they were Darkfriend Aiel, it would be hard to break the habit of killing without veiling themselves. And as we see here, "the Aiel man undid his veil." Then we see "the man's teeth had been filed to points." This is probably one of the most ridiculous and mysterious parts of the description what kind of human being would have filed teeth? As has been said, Aelfinn and Eelfinn do, but it's unlikely that it's them. Anyway, back to the topic at hand. After unveiling his face, the "Aiel" man killed Barriga. So just out of the common knowledge that habits are hard to break, I find it hard to believe that an Aiel could intentionally remove his veil just before killing Barriga. Very odd.

Then we get the final description that they were "something terrible." So of course the descriptions are screaming that these are no friendly people and almost definitely darkfriends.

Now then, why are they NOT Aiel? Well, apart from that whole habit thing and the weird filed teeth thing going on, I think this is a strategical decision. A genius one if I may say so myself. First of all, let me put to you the classic example: in war and battle if army A dresses itself with the uniforms of the opposing army B, at first sight, army B would be inclined to think they are friendly people. This could be a deadly mistake if the army A got close to army B and army B didn't realize that army A was a hostile army until army A was too close. By then it would be too late and army B would most likely be at a great disadvantage. It's a sort of element of surprise thing going on. To prove the effectiveness of this, Barriga himself at first sight thought himself safe and that's why he "let his guard down" so to speak and let them approach so easily.

Towers of Midnight, chapter "And After" page 839.
"'Light be praised,' he whispered. 'Aiel.'" And a bit later, "'I'm safe!'" He realized his mistake too late, when these red veiled Aiel were far too close for any chance of escape and all that whole deal. So you can see in terms of a force, these Aiel-like uniforms could prove deadly against the forces of the Light/Dragon. I think that the outfits these people are wearing are most likely a deliberate strategy used to misdirect and confuse the forces of the Light. I expect we will see a whole army of them in the next book. You might say if their intention was to copy the Aiel and trick other armies, why not dress more similarly to the real Aiel (meaning without the RED veils). Well, this is probably so the Shadow armies don't start attacking them. Similar enough to trick the Light, and different enough to avoid being attacked by friendly troops.

Something else about the veils. As far as I can remember, there is only one group of people who actually use veils strictly. These are of course, Sharans.

The World of Robert Jordan's The Wheel of Time. The World of the Wheel. page 153.
"Sharan merchants are unwilling even to allow the truth of their appearance to be known, walking among outsiders only when cloaked and veiled."

Hmmm... ok so why is it that they don't want their appearance known? Perhaps because they have dark glassy eyes and file-pointed teeth? And of course I shouldn't need to spell it out for you that they are always veiled, much like these red-veiled Aiel. We've met people from every land except the Land of Madmen and Shara. This I'm a bit unsure of because I don't quite remember the details, but I believe I read somewhere that the Sea Folk give a choice to men who can channel. They can either jump off the ship and drown themselves, or (the more shameful option) to be deposited in a desolate island. Ok, so this could possibly mean that the Land of Madmen contains many male sea folk channelers. And then from the little the Sea Folk themselves know, this Land of Madmen contains uncivilized groups of males and females, most of whom can channel. So, since we aren't given weird descriptions by the Sea Folk who saw them, and apart from being primitive, they seem to be human since they don't hide their appearance, the only people we really haven't met are Sharans. Sharans hide their appearance as stated before. And frankly, I doubt RJ would add a random army/group of people we haven't even heard of at the end of the book. That's really cheesy and I really don't think RJ would do that, although that's just my opinion and belief. It'd be like it's the end of the book, we haven't heard of teletubbies at all but randomly RJ has them there in the last book. I find this very unlikely. It's much more likely that this group (Sharans) of people who have been a complete enigma- whom we have heard of but know so little about- will play a bigger role in the upcoming book, even if not in the actual Shara land. RJ said that no scenes would be in Seanchan or Shara. But as with the Seanchan although we haven't seen their mainland, we've seen plenty of the Seanchan and they play quite a big role. So why not Shara?

I want to add that in the nice big white book which contains the bulk of knowledge we have of Shara, as little as that is. It is stated there that the person who gave information about Shara to the historian/author of the article about Shara believed that the real power came not from the shobotay and those cute little monarchs every 7 years, but rather from the channelers that were supposed to be serving them. So this mean it's likely that the real rulers of Shara are the female channelers. So, if indeed the authority of Shara belongs to channelers, I would imagine it would be really easy for one of the most powerful channelers ever to be able to infiltrate their society fairly easily: very likely Demandred. Or maybe a female forsaken, although it's unlikely it's one of them from what we've seen has happened to the bulk of them. (Messana, Graendal, Cyndane/Lanfear, Mogheiden, Semirhage, Arangar) so yeah.

Conclusion: these red-veiled "Aiel" will be found in higher numbers and are really from Shara. Most possibly they are Darkfriends somehow recruited from there. Could very well be Demandred or maybe Moridin. It's really the only piece of the civilization/human puzzle left that will fit. Anything else would have to be a completely new creation, and like I said, I strongly doubt we will be introduced a completely new army of new beings.

Blue Nine
11-22-2010, 08:40 PM
Personally, I'm inclined to believe that the red-veiled aiel are instead a culmination of all the "gun on the mantle" events. 1) Their glassy, hard eyes remind me of the BT personnel like Tarna et al who we are pretty sure have been forcibly turned to the shadow. 2) The male aiel channelers who run off to the blight to die in some disgustingly heroic gesture. 3) The "there
s a _______ in the blight" issue. what if its a tribe of aiel in the blight? They could be a combination of #1+2.

Aside fromt that, I don't think they'll be from Shara because BS has said that we wont see any significant Sharan involvement in the remaining books.

morat'corlm
11-22-2010, 08:58 PM
Sharans sound as plausible an identity as any. As far as I'm concerned, the eyes entirely rule out that they might be Aiel; I just don't buy the Colored Contacts of Evil explanation.

Cortar
11-22-2010, 08:58 PM
So at first glance, you might think apart from the red-veils, these are definitely Aiel. They are sneaky, like the Aiel, weary of their surroundings, scanning the terrain, like the Aiel. And to top it all off, they have spears on their backs. Woah! Ok, so here's the thing. The Aiels' veils were red, for one. Also, the one specific Aiel described had "dark eyes [that] were glassy and hard." So automatically we know (as has been discussed before), Aiel don't have dark eyes! This is wrong! Also, I'm inclined to believe that even if they were Darkfriend Aiel, it would be hard to break the habit of killing without veiling themselves. And as we see here, "the Aiel man undid his veil." Then we see "the man's teeth had been filed to points." This is probably one of the most ridiculous and mysterious parts of the description what kind of human being would have filed teeth? As has been said, Aelfinn and Eelfinn do, but it's unlikely that it's them. Anyway, back to the topic at hand. After unveiling his face, the "Aiel" man killed Barriga. So just out of the common knowledge that habits are hard to break, I find it hard to believe that an Aiel could intentionally remove his veil just before killing Barriga. Very odd.

I just want to address this line of logic because I believe it to be completely false. Obvisouly if there were Aiel then that would either make them (1) darkfriends or (2) people turned by a 13x13

If they are (1) then it wouldn't be a stretch at all to say that they would break their traditions. The whole point of being a darkfriend is that you care about yourself, power, etc more than anything else. To claim that an Aiel would be a darkfriend, but then want to hold on to traditions about killing is kinda silly especially when a darkfriend probably has murdered people before

If they are (2) then it doesn't really matter because whoever is in control of them probably made them remove their veils just to humiliate the turned even further or to show what he/she can make them do while turned

Bladesoar
11-22-2010, 09:13 PM
@Blue Nine
The glass eyes description in relations to Tarna is interesing I'm going to have to look it up when I find time. "There's a ___ in the Blight" needs the shock factor and this is just a personal opinion, but I wouldn't be shocked to find there's an army of Aiel channelers. In fact, I'm expecting it because at the rate the story is going so far, it seems like the Shadow has no chance. We've seen little of what they can do... so the Aiel channelers would sort of balance that out. I'm expecting something far more shocking.

@morat'corlm
Same here! haha

@Cortar
What I'm saying is that I think they are NOT Aiel because as I said habits are hard to break. Even if you are evil or not, if you have spent your whole life doing something, you would find breaking that habit quite a difficult thing to accomplish. I agree holding their traditions is silly.. I just don't think they can let go of traditions THAT easily. If they were turned and therefore could channel, then I doubt that the specific "Aiel" who killed Barriga would've resorted to a knife and risk Barriga fighting back. So I'm not convinced they could channel.

BiteOnThis
11-22-2010, 09:53 PM
IIRC the darkfriend aiel that tried to kill Mat, veiled herself so that does add some credence to Blade's argument.

Its part of the whole nurture thing, if your entire life you're engrained with a habit no matter how power hungry you are the habits still there.

Oneirist
11-23-2010, 12:09 AM
But we've already seen Sharans -- their figurehead monarchs that Graendal snatched up, and that rogue Sharan in Tear -- and there's nothing monstrous about them. And their channelers are supposed to tattoo their faces, so they'd be pretty easy to distinguish.

It seems like a given that these aren't actually Aiel, and that the reason they're veiling themselves is to cover their "horrific maws." I got the strong impression that they were some sort of Shadowspawn.

natasharma
11-23-2010, 01:21 AM
I agree with Blade on them being Non-channelers. A channeler would not have used a knife to do the killing.

Although there is a lot of merit in the theory of these red-Veiled Aiels being Sharans i think i am going to go with the "something else". The Blight is too big for us to have seen all that inhabit it. These creatures might just be another twisted once-human Shadowspawn.

Neilbert
11-23-2010, 02:21 AM
I agree with Blade on them being Non-channelers. A channeler would not have used a knife to do the killing.

Unless the channeler was the sort to really relish the act of killing. Channeling lacks the personal touch.

z10
11-23-2010, 02:47 AM
Whoever they are I hope they are Demandred's army - the guy needs to do something already!

Bladesoar
11-23-2010, 09:36 AM
@BiteOnThis
Yeah Melindhra or however you spell her name did that when she tried to kill Mat. Thanks for pointing that out!

@Oneirist
I haven't read that scene in a long while, but if I remember correctly it wasn't known they were Sharan, it was just guessed or assumed.

@natasharma
Thanks! And of course that is possible too, after all, if I knew for sure, I wouldn't theorize but rather be stating facts. I'm just inclined to believe we won't be introduced to a deadly force by the end of the book that we haven't seen. I might expect a few new monsters in the Blight, but definitely not human-like beings like these "Aiel." Seems corny to just add them in and say, "oh they were from the deep blight." I don't want these "Aiel" to be from there. At least something we've introduced before.

@Neilbert
Semirhage relished at the touch of killing probably more than most. Yet she killed with the One Power devising creative and painful ways to kill to make the victim suffer and also to entertain herself more. So if they were channelers who relished killing, I'd be inclined to believe they would do something along those lines even if they couldn't quite meet Sermihage's standards.

@z10
Yes me too! I never bothered wondering what he was up to until I decided to establish what each Forsaken was doing. And noticed I had no clue as to Demandred! I hope it's something even more deadly and ridiculous than Moridin.

flinn
11-23-2010, 10:28 AM
The only reason they would have filed teeth would be because they are cannibals. I think they are Aiel channelers who have been turned. But that all depends on whether turning changes eye color. Its unusual for someone with light hair to have dark eyes. Not rare, but still something to be remarked. Id love to find descrips of the Aes Sedai who went to the black tower. If those who were turned had dark eyes before turning and Pevara has light eyes it would explain alot. Im still wondering if they turned the other Aes Sedai, why didnt they turn Pevara when she was creating a scene at the gates wanting to be let out?
The simple answer would be, Pevara has light colored eyes and would be way too noticable if her eye color suddenly changed dark.

Bladesoar
11-23-2010, 10:36 AM
Yeah the Black Tower is a very interesting topic... I can't wait for its resolution the next book.

flinn
11-23-2010, 10:40 AM
Unless the channeler was the sort to really relish the act of killing. Channeling lacks the personal touch.

And if the filed teeth does imply cannibalism then using a knife would be exactly what they would do. Hell, as turned/darkfriend cannibal aiel, they might use the OP to hold him, while they cut sections from him eating while he was still alive watching.

David Selig
11-23-2010, 11:08 AM
But that all depends on whether turning changes eye color. Its unusual for someone with light hair to have dark eyes. Not rare, but still something to be remarked. Id love to find descrips of the Aes Sedai who went to the black tower. If those who were turned had dark eyes before turning and Pevara has light eyes it would explain alot. Im still wondering if they turned the other Aes Sedai, why didnt they turn Pevara when she was creating a scene at the gates wanting to be let out?

Tarna has blue eyes and pale yellow hair. Pevara has dark eyes.

Bladesoar
11-23-2010, 12:48 PM
@flinn
That sounds delicious.. hahaha

And man I need a re-read of the series when I get the chance. That would be around my 8th re-read...

Nafro
11-23-2010, 12:53 PM
I think this comes back to the "There's a _____ in the blight" question. I think these red veiled doods are the citzens of a human city in the blight.

Bladesoar
11-23-2010, 12:58 PM
Nafro, it's possible that the "___" is referring to these Aiel-like people. I just don't find it likely because like I said before, and this is purely opinion, that statement needs the shock factor, and I wouldn't be shocked if there was a human city in the Blight. I'm expecting something far more ridiculous and shock-worthy because to me that wouldn't really shock me.

flinn
11-23-2010, 02:40 PM
Tarna has blue eyes and pale yellow hair. Pevara has dark eyes.

Then I am confused with why Pevara wasnt turned. There has to be a reason.

Neilbert
11-23-2010, 02:49 PM
@Neilbert
Semirhage relished at the touch of killing probably more than most. Yet she killed with the One Power devising creative and painful ways to kill to make the victim suffer and also to entertain herself more.

No, Semirhage relished causing pain.

Bladesoar
11-23-2010, 02:58 PM
Sorry, Neilbert, I mistyped. It just seems unlikely that the specific "aiel" we were introduced to could channel. Maybe others like them can, but I doubt these ones could.

Belazamon
11-23-2010, 03:16 PM
And if the filed teeth does imply cannibalism then using a knife would be exactly what they would do. Hell, as turned/darkfriend cannibal aiel, they might use the OP to hold him, while they cut sections from him eating while he was still alive watching.
So they're channeling Reavers?

CreationEdge
11-23-2010, 03:37 PM
I would like to note, wasn't it described as these people/creatures having "filed" teeth as opposed to naturally sharp?

I'm not sure exactly how one could make the distinction in a quick look, as you're about to die... But, maybe it was something fairly obvious?


Meaning... If their teeth were FILED and something was done to them to make them sharp, as opposed to them being naturally sharp, then to me that leans more towards Darkfriends than Shadowspawn.

Bladesoar
11-23-2010, 05:14 PM
Yeah I noticed that and was wondering if that was just a descriptive way of phrasing it or if it was literal. Obviously the part about have filed teeth is literal. As you pointed out what we don't know is if they were filed manually or if they were like that because they were shadowspawn or some other form of being/creature: maybe Sharan. And I agree. If they were filed manually I'd say they're crazy or unlucky darkfriends and if not, that they're sharans or shadowspawn.

All in all the whole teeth thing is probably the weirdest thing about them.. I really think that they could be Sharans because as I said Sharans never go unveiled when dealing with foreigners so it could very well be because they have those features and they don't want anyone to know.

Neilbert
11-24-2010, 01:08 AM
Sorry, Neilbert, I mistyped. It just seems unlikely that the specific "aiel" we were introduced to could channel. Maybe others like them can, but I doubt these ones could.

Oh that's fine. I just don't think that the fact that these cannibal looking "Aiel" killed a helpless man with a knife is in any way conclusive.

Myself I find it unlikely that the filed teeth are natural. I believe they are just humans who have filed their teeth.

natasharma
11-24-2010, 02:13 AM
You know Blade, the more i think bout this the more i agree with you. It wasn't mentioned that these "Aiels" were coming out of the Blight. And if Barringa thought them to be on his side even for a moment that means they are entering the Blight.

Paraprosdokian
11-24-2010, 05:17 PM
I have a theory, that explains how the Aiel could come to have black eyes without relying on the fact that one lone male channeller had dark-eyes and spread it to the whole clan.

What is the colour of an Aiel's eyes?

The answer, you will tell me, is light-coloured. For that is what makes an Aiel. But we must be wary of asserting what an Aiel is and is not, given that Mandein, upon meeting the Jenn Aiel had wanted to deny that they were Aiel at all.

It is clear that by Mandein's time, dark-coloured eyes were unusual.

Even trying to watch a hundred possible sources of death, it was hard not to stare at the Aes Sedai as the bearers lowered their ornately carved chairs to the ground. Women with hair so white it almost seemed transparent. Ageless faces with skin that looked as if the wind might tear it. He had heard the years did not touch Aes Sedai. How old must these two be? What had they seen? Could they remember when his greatfather Comran first found Ogier stedding in the Dragonwall and began to trade with them? Or maybe even when Comran’s greatfather Rhodric led the Aiel to kill the men in iron shirts who had crossed the Dragonwall? The Aes Sedai fumed their eyes on him - sharp blue and dark, dark brown, the first dark eyes he had ever seen - and seemed to see inside his skull, inside his thoughts. He knew himself chosen out, and did not know why. With an effort he pulled away from those twin gazes, which knew him better than he knew himself.

But hidden in that same sentence is a blue-eyed Aes Sedai. It appears that just as dark eyes are uncommon amongst the Aiel, blue eyes are uncommon amongst Westlanders. So why does an Aes Sedai have Aiel-coloured eyes, but not Aiel hair?

And despite the perception of Aiel only having reddish hair, not all Aiel do. See, for example, this description of a Jenn Aiel, who later joins the Aiel.


The yellow-haired woman - her name was Morin - told a story much as Jeordam had expected. The Jenn had traded with a village, a place with a log wall, and then men from the village had come in the night, taking back what had been traded for, taking more. The Jenn always thought they could trust people who lived in houses, always thought the Way would protect them. The dead were listed - fathers, a mother, first-brothers.

The captives - first-sisters, a sister-mother, a daughter. That last surprised Jeordam; it was Morin who spoke bitterly of a five-year-old daughter carried off to be raised by some other woman. Studying her more closely, he mentally added a few years to her age.

Is this a Jenn Aiel with the ability to channel? The description is similar to that of agelessness (particularly, the muted form of agedness experienced by those who have not held the Oath Rod). Furthermore, she is a Dreamer.

It is curious that despite extensive descriptions of Morin, there is no description of her eyes. Nor the eyes of any other Aiel after Mandein's initial scene. There are descriptions of dark-haired or dark-eyed non-Aiel, but none with the same surprise as when Mandein meets the Aes Sedai. That is curious too, because the Aiel are unused to strangers, even during their wanderings.

This all suggests to me that the Aiel did not always have light-coloured eyes and that in the past there was variation in their hair and eye colours.

I think this next passage is particularly illuminating.


The pale-haired woman with him laid a hand on his arm, her dress of shimmery white streith becoming more opaque with her sudden embarrassment. “Jom, look at his hair. He is Aiel, Jom.”
Feeling his head to see if it was cracked, Charn’s fingers brushed through short-cut, reddish-gold hair. He gave the longer tail at his nape a tug in lieu of shaking his head. A bruise, he thought, but no more.
“So he is.” The man’s annoyance vanished in consternation. “Forgive me, Da’shain. I am the one who should be watching where he walks. Let me help you up.” He was already suiting his words, hoisting Charn to his feet. “Are you all right? Let me call a jumper to take you where you are going.”

Look at his hair. Not, look at his eyes. Not, look at his height and his eyes and his hair. And this from a woman who herself has pale hair. It seems, at this point, the only distinguishing feature of the Aiel.

But that is odd, because Solinda Sedai also has red hair. It is not exclusive to the Aiel.

“Peace, sisters.” Solinda was the calmest of them all, her old-fashioned streith gown only a pale blue mist. The sun-red hair falling to her waist was nearly the color of his own. His greatfather had served her as a young man, but she looked younger than he; she was Aes Sedai. “The time for contention among ourselves is past. Jaric and Haindar will both be here by tomorrow.”

Nor, could it be said that Solinda Sedai had been born Aiel and then chosen for her power. Her words are quite odd for one who is a former Aiel herself.

“Solinda Sedai, some of us wish to remain. We can serve, still.”
“Do you know what happened to the Aiel at Tzora?” He nodded, and she sighed, reaching out to smooth his short hair as if he were a child. “Of course you do. You Da’shain have more courage than . . . Ten thousand Aiel linking arms and singing, trying to remind a madman of who they were and who he had been, trying to turn him with their bodies and a song.

It is clear there is a particularly close connection between the Aes Sedai and the Aiel. The Aiel are sworn to the Aes Sedai and occasionally, Aes Sedai are raised from the Aiel. I would go one step further and argue that there is a blood connection between the Aiel and the Aes Sedai. Throughout the entire passage through the pillars, there are mentions of Aiel who can channel or dream. It seems unusual, given that channelling is a genetic trait and quite a rare one, that so many Aiel can channel or dream. We have seen superficial similarities in appearance between some Aiel and some Aes Sedai. Red hair in Solinda Sedai. Blue eyes on a nameless Aes Sedai. Perhaps, during the dark days of the Breaking, some of the Aes Sedai intermingled with the Jenn Aiel.

This would explain the higher proportion of channellers amongst the Aiel even before Wise Ones became prominent amongst the Aiel (since many Jenn joined the Aiel). And it would explain the lack of Aiel channelers at the very beginning. Jonai bemoans the fact that there are no channelers to heal his people (after the death of his Dreaming wife). And then, this Morin (a possible channeller) joins the clan a short time later.

I say this to go one more step further. Is it possible that the red-veiled Aiel are the descendants of the Jenn Aiel and the Aes Sedai? We know there are dark-eyed Aes Sedai amongst the Jenn. I have speculated that they intermingled.

Otherwise, what happened to the Jenn? It is speculated that they died out due to difficulties surviving in the Waste. But in the time of Mandein, there were plenty of Jenn remaining.

Is it possible that the Jenn are tied to the Aes Sedai (by honour, rather than bonds of the One Power) so that when an Aes Sedai dies, an Aiel must be bonded to another Aes Sedai? And what if all the Aes Sedai die? Must the Aiel then commit suicide, just as the Amayar did?

In that case, could the red-veiled Aiel be the lost Jenn Aiel? The ones who broke the Covenant at the very last step and refused to commit suicide? They couldn't remain in the Waste, because the non-Jenn Aiel would find them. They couldn't remain in Rhuidean, because the Wise Ones and Clan Chiefs would find them. The only solution for these lost Jenn would be to go into the Waste. And it would make sense, given that they know of the existence of the Rhuidean Prophecies and probably know more of the Age of Legends than any other race, for them to leave the Blight when the Dragon stirs.

If the Waste broke the Da'shain Aiel and turned them into the Aiel we know and love, wouldn't the much harsher life in the Blight have transformed the Jenn Aiel into something even tougher? Or, in the words of Barriga, "something terrible"?

I think another important realisation from this theory is that the red-veiled Aiel are not necessarily darkfriends. The Blight has made the Jenn even tougher ironically than the Aiel, just as the Blight is tougher than the Waste. That does not mean that they are darkfriends, any more than the Aiel's love of war and killing makes them darkfriends.

Caveatar
11-24-2010, 07:10 PM
They are refugees from a dental school.
There is a state supported community college of dentistry in the blight.
They are required to practice on one another.
They have raw nerves exposed in their teeth and this makes them want to kill something to share the pain.

The red veils are red because they have bleeding gums.

Would teeth be filed under T for Teeth,D for Dentures, M for molars, O for "Oh damn that hurts!, or something else. :D

morat'corlm
11-24-2010, 08:20 PM
Look at his hair. Not, look at his eyes. Not, look at his height and his eyes and his hair. And this from a woman who herself has pale hair. It seems, at this point, the only distinguishing feature of the Aiel.This can be read, and I think more convincingly, as her referring to the rat-tail Aiel wore (and still wear; NB that the Cairhienin youth copy the hairstyle).

The notion that the red-veils are traitor Jenn is about as well-supported as you can make it, and that support is still pretty tenuous; objections like this one can be raised for every piece of evidence you offer. Still, it's an interesting idea. I don't think it's as likely as their being Sharans, but it's more likely than that they're ordinary Aiel, and certainly moreso than that they're Shadowspawn or from the "Land of Madmen", which doesn't even appear in the novels.

Callahan
11-24-2010, 08:48 PM
For some reason, the filed teeth description keeps making me think about the story Thom told about the red painted savages.

Bladesoar
11-26-2010, 01:43 PM
First of all, I just want to say I hope everyone had a great Thanksgiving!

@Neilbert
Why do you think they filed their teeth as opposed to being natural? That sounds like a painful thing to do haha

@natasharma
Thanks I'm glad this give you further insight!

@Paraprosdokian
I don't agree with everything you've said, and there are some things that are "too far of a stretch" in my opinion, but the final conclusion that they are descendants of the Jenn Aiel and Aes Sedai is a very interesting one. That definitely has some merit to it, although I still think it more likely they are Sharans. Good job!

@Caveatar
You made me lol. I'm abandoning my current position and will now agree with yours... hahaha.

@morat'corlm
I agree with you my friend. I think it's more likely they are Sharans, but being descendants of Aes Sedai and the Jenn Aiel is probably my number 2 choice now. Definitely above being ordinary darkfriend Aiel or from the Land of Madmen etc.

@Callahan
I just remembered that but it's a little misty in my memory; could you perhaps find the passage for me?

dominominic
11-26-2010, 02:17 PM
!@Neilbert
Why do you think they filed their teeth as opposed to being natural? That sounds like a painful thing to do haha

That was the description given in the book.

Bladesoar
11-26-2010, 03:03 PM
@dominominic
I doubt it was that straightforward. In the same way writers can use metaphors or give people/objects ridiculous attributes.. they may or may not be literal. In the context of science fiction we can pretty safely assume that their teeth really are filed/sharp pointy. That doesn't mean that they actually filed them. They could natural. For example to use an extreme sort of example, when a writer says, "the sun was smiling down on the people of earth." This doesn't mean that the sun was really smiling. We can safely assume that the sun was warming the day though. Just because it says filed teeth doesn't necessarily mean that they filed them themselves (it could, but it's not for sure). That's why I asked what are the reasons for his belief in that they did it themselves.

dominominic
11-26-2010, 03:17 PM
@dominominic
I doubt it was that straightforward. In the same way writers can use metaphors or give people/objects ridiculous attributes.. they may or may not be literal. In the context of science fiction we can pretty safely assume that their teeth really are filed/sharp pointy. That doesn't mean that they actually filed them. They could natural. For example to use an extreme sort of example, when a writer says, "the sun was smiling down on the people of earth." This doesn't mean that the sun was really smiling. We can safely assume that the sun was warming the day though. Just because it says filed teeth doesn't necessarily mean that they filed them themselves (it could, but it's not for sure). That's why I asked what are the reasons for his belief in that they did it themselves.

I know all that.

My point was that if anyone assumes they are filed down that's because they were described as such by another character in the book. That's all you have to go on at the moment.

There's a chance they're naturally pointy, and that character is mistaken or making an assumption, but there's nothing to support that yet.

Callahan
11-26-2010, 04:02 PM
@Callahan
I just remembered that but it's a little misty in my memory; could you perhaps find the passage for me?[/QUOTE]

I don't have the book handy, but it's the scene where Matt and Perrin meet in the inn in Caemlyn.

It's probably just the author throwing something out to tease us with, but it just keeps popping up in my mind when I think about the red veiled aiel.

Bladesoar
11-26-2010, 09:59 PM
@dominominic
haha yeah we have very little information to go on. Let's hope this is some crazy revelation in the next book.

@Callahan
Right! I'm going to re-read that next time I get the chance. Thanks for that!

Paraprosdokian
11-26-2010, 10:13 PM
@Paraprosdokian
I don't agree with everything you've said, and there are some things that are "too far of a stretch" in my opinion, but the final conclusion that they are descendants of the Jenn Aiel and Aes Sedai is a very interesting one. That definitely has some merit to it, although I still think it more likely they are Sharans. Good job!

Personally, I actually think that the most likely option is 13x13 Aiel male channellers (given the specific reference to the "hard and glassy" eyes of the Aiel. As you said, my Jenn Aiel argument at times are too far of a stretch, I just thought it was an interesting idea.

Another passage I thought was very relevant was at the very beginning of ToM (which I am just beginning to reread). Perrin comes along a miasma of evil, where it seems a part of the Blight appears mysteriously in Ghealdean months of travel away from the Blight. It centres around a village which itself is mysteriously untouched by Blight.

[Perrin]The buildings were huts built from an odd type of wood, like large reeds, and the roofs were thatch - but thatch built from enormous leaves, as wide as two man's palms.There were no plants here, only a very sandy soil.

...

Cautiously lead Stayer forward into the centre of the village. The Blight was radiating from this point, but the village itself showed no touch of it.

...

"This village is not native to this area," Masuri said. "The wood is unlike anything I've seen before."[/quote]

Neither the Wise Ones, Aes Sedai nor assorted Aiel, Mayeners, Ghealdeaners etc. Masuri, by the way is from Arafel, and hence Borderlander. She is also of the Brown Ajah and might know something of plants and of historical building designs (given that she specifically raises this issue).

My question is - is the Blight emanating from a hole in the Pattern? Or is the Blight emanating from this odd village itself? In other words, was this village teleported here from the Blight? Is that a sign that there are villages in the Blight, with some kind of property that repels the Blight?

Its an interesting thought, I'm not sure how much strength that argument has.

But the real difficulty I have with the Sharan argument is that the Sharans are quite dark-skinned. And its difficult to mistake people for Aiel simply because they have red veils and walk funny and carry spears. The most obvious sign of being Aiel are their hair and their height.

morat'corlm
11-26-2010, 10:32 PM
But the real difficulty I have with the Sharan argument is that the Sharans are quite dark-skinned.How many Sharans have we seen? Shara is as large as all of the Wetlands put together; compare, for instance, Seanchan, where there are both very dark black people like Tuon and very pale white people like Selucia.
And its difficult to mistake people for Aiel simply because they have red veils and walk funny and carry spears. The most obvious sign of being Aiel are their hair and their height.But neither attribute was mentioned. Perhaps, you'll say, this is because that was the basis on which he judged them Aiel in the first place and need only have been mentioned if they contradicted that judgment, but I'd note that Barriga was on the ragged edge of sanity at the moment and had been convinced they were Myrddraal five seconds earlier. He is not so reliable a witness that I think we can infer anything from what he didn't say.

What Barriga sees, reliably, is: black and brown clothing, red veils, spears on their back, dark eyes which are glassy and hard, pointy teeth.

Neilbert
11-26-2010, 10:42 PM
@Neilbert
Why do you think they filed their teeth as opposed to being natural? That sounds like a painful thing to do haha

Because, like I mentioned earlier in this thread, it is a thing that certain cultures have done. It's a human behavior, albeit an uncommon one, and the man's assumption that the teeth were filed is a much simpler and easier explanation than some new species that is identical to humans except for the teeth.

Bladesoar
11-26-2010, 11:09 PM
@Paraprosdokian
That is indeed a weird passage about the village... Another thing I have to re-read. In fact I want to re-read the book since I rushed through it. I can't afford to spend time to property read it until winter break though. If I remember the gist of it correctly, I'm inclined to believe it's a village teleported from somewhere. It could be from the Blight in our lovely continent or the Blight in Seanchan, because remember they too have a Blight over there. And their Blight is much more "peaceful" as inappropriate as the word is than ours. So if there's a chance for there to be villages in the Blight I'm inclined to believe it comes from the Seanchan Blight.

@morat'corlm
You make a very wise point. Shara is an extremely large area of land and it is likely there are different sorts of people in such a large nation.

@Neilbert
If we take my route. Not a new species, rather a species we know exists but know little to nothing about. Certainly virtually nothing about their appearance since they're always veiled. Of course in this series, it's always a possibility that the teeth could indeed be unnatural. I can't wait for the next book I hope this and many more questions get cleared up.

Paraprosdokian
11-26-2010, 11:41 PM
@morat'corlm

I agree entirely, Barriga's POV is highly confused and unreliable. In fact, there are quite strong textual arguments for any number of things, and I suspect its been deliberately written that way to throw us all off track.

I'd also agree about the variety of Sharans - and how they wouldn't all be dark-skinned. That's a very good point, actually.

Nonetheless, the only thing to connect these people to the Sharans is their mysteriousness and their veils. On the other hand, the spears, the veils and their scouting/lithe way of moving matches the Aiel. That seems a much stronger link, particularly in light of the "hard and glassy" eyes point, which suggests 13x13 male channellers.

@ Bladesoar

From the chapter, it is absolutely doubtless that this is a village teleported from somewhere else. The question is - was it a teleported from a place nowhere near the Blight(eg. Amayar) or from the Blight?

Perrin himself seems to think it might not be a blighted village, but that the Blight is seeping through cracks in reality caused by a teleporting village.

Perrin scratched his chin, remembering a day when his axe had tried to kill him. If entire villages were vanishing and appearing in other places, if the Blight was growing out of rifts where the Pattern was fraying... Light! How bad were things becoming?

But Perrin could always be wrong. It could be that this village is from the Blight, but somehow resists the Blight.

And that's a really good point about the peaceful Seanchan Blight. Hadn't thought about that.

Paraprosdokian
11-26-2010, 11:47 PM
@morat'corlm

I agree entirely, Barriga's POV is highly confused and unreliable. In fact, there are quite strong textual arguments for any number of things, and I suspect its been deliberately written that way to throw us all off track.

I'd also agree about the variety of Sharans - and how they wouldn't all be dark-skinned. That's a very good point, actually.

Nonetheless, the only textual link to the Sharans is their mysteriousness and their veils. On the other hand, the spears, the veils and their scouting/lithe way of moving matches the Aiel. That seems a much stronger link, particularly in light of the "hard and glassy" eyes point, which suggests 13x13 male channellers.

@ Bladesoar

From the chapter, it is absolutely doubtless that this is a village teleported from somewhere else. The question is - was it teleported from a place nowhere near the Blight(eg. Amayar) or from the Blight?

Perrin himself seems to think it might not be a blighted village, but that the Blight is seeping through cracks in reality caused by a teleporting village.

Perrin scratched his chin, remembering a day when his axe had tried to kill him. If entire villages were vanishing and appearing in other places, if the Blight was growing out of rifts where the Pattern was fraying... Light! How bad were things becoming?

But Perrin could always be wrong. It could be that this village is from the Blight, but somehow resists the Blight. There have been many reports of teleporting villages (whether through time or through space). None of these villages have caused the Blight. There have been many bubbles which cause cracks in reality. The Blight hasn't seeped through them. So, that suggests to me that this village is special.

And that's a really good point about the peaceful Seanchan Blight. Hadn't thought about that.

TankSpill
11-27-2010, 01:33 PM
My thoughts are that these people are the "blank" in the Blight, and they are the descendants of all the Aiel male channelers sent north throughout the centuries, and the humans which trollocs and fades keep around for feeding (and other ... ahem ... entertainment). The "blank" would equal "city of darkfriend, savage, cannibalistic humans," or something along those lines.

Bladesoar
11-27-2010, 11:04 PM
@Paraprosdokian
I don't think the glassy eyes suggest the turned darkfriend channelers.. But you make a good point about the way they move. Their clothing, anyone could wear spears and such like I said to confuse enemies into thinking they're allies. They way the move is a better point, but Warders and other good warriors have such a deadly and sneaky way of moving. And I'm glad I could give some insight about the Seanchan Blight. But that whole village appearing there is very troublesome.. I hadn't really given it much thought until you brought it up. Thanks for that.

@TankSpill
I doubt it my friend as I've said I believe twice in this thread although it's of course a possibility!

Just wanna add that I've seen in other threads how people kinda fight each other and leave rude and very aggressive comments just because they don't agree with one another. I'm glad we can get along here and respond politely and admit when the other has made a good point! Thanks!

FelixPax
11-27-2010, 11:19 PM
We have a few differences, in our conclusions about Shara, who controls it. However, I do believe those red-veils murders are from somewhere in Shara or possibly from Blight north of Shara.

So, if indeed the authority of Shara belongs to channelers, I would imagine it would be really easy for one of the most powerful channelers ever to be able to infiltrate their society fairly easily: very likely Demandred. Or maybe a female forsaken, although it's unlikely it's one of them from what we've seen has happened to the bulk of them. (Messana, Graendal, Cyndane/Lanfear, Mogheiden, Semirhage, Arangar) so yeah.

Conclusion: these red-veiled "Aiel" will be found in higher numbers and are really from Shara. Most possibly they are Darkfriends somehow recruited from there. Could very well be Demandred or maybe Moridin. It's really the only piece of the civilization/human puzzle left that will fit. Anything else would have to be a completely new creation, and like I said, I strongly doubt we will be introduced a completely new army of new beings.



Graendal stole two of leaders of Shara early in the series, in an attempt to divert Sammael. So if Demandred has plans active in Shara it does not jive with Graendal's point of view.



Aran'gar was a specialist in primate cultures, and its hinted at in TofM that this hermaphrodite knows what is unfolding across Sharan & Seanchan. A Sharan invasion of Seanchan. (TofM, Chapter 1 'Apples First' - Omni pov)



Who was Aran'gar's partner in crime early in the series?


Aginor (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/a/aginor.html) (tWotW), who is later known as Corlan Dashiva claiming to be from the Black Hills, and also known as the Chosen Osan'gar.


Why bring up Aginor, Osan'gar? Let alone in a thread about Shara & Red Veils?


Because someone has to direct the Sharan forces according to demands of the Dark One. One of those directors for the Shadow was a re-born Osan'gar. What evidence is for Osan'gar leading the Sharans, not Demandred? A Demandred point of view, shows how Osan'gar is dressed is red with lace. Demandred is dumbfounded about the Osan'gar livery, too. What does that imply? Demandred is not in charge of Shara's forces, as of Winter's Heart book. :D


Osan’gar frowned at “idiots” and “blind fools,” as well he might, but he quickly smoothed that plain, creased face, so unlike the one he had been born with. By whatever name he was called, he had always known who he dared challenge and who not. “A matter of chance,” he said calmly, though he did begin dry-washing his hands. An old habit. He was garbed like some ruler of this Age, in a coat so heavy with golden embroidery that it almost hid the red of the cloth, and boots fringed with golden tassels. There was enough white lace at his neck and wrists to clothe a child. The man had never known the meaning of excess. If not for his particular skills, he never would have been Chosen. Realizing what his hands were doing, Osan’gar snatched the tall cuendillar wineglass from the round table beside his chair and inhaled the dark wine’s aroma deeply. “Simply probabilities,” he murmured, trying to sound offhand. “Next time, he will be killed or taken. Chance can’t protect him forever.”

Winter's Heart, Chapter 12 'Wonderful News' - Demandred point of view

What is the Color on the Sails of the Great Ships invading Seanchan?

Blood Red.

Out into the Sleeping Bay, it passed the attackers: enormous greatships with sails painted blood red. They sailed southward, their grisly work done.

Towers of Midnight, Chapter 1

Where did those Greatships come from likely?

Shara's huge eastern coastline, which is off-limits to Westlanders & the Sea Folk ships.


It is unknown what the Seanchan knew previously of the Sharans. I'd personally like to see a Egeanin/Leilwin point of view in AMoL book, about her and her mother's knowledge of Sharan's eastern navy resources. Egeanin's mother was charge of the Seanchan Navy, for the Empress. This means Egeanin's mother became part of the High Blood, in the Imperial Family, a similar rank to what Beslan is now (TofM, Ch. 47) & what Queen Tylin once became (WH, Ch. 17).

The sea-green lacquer on the nails of her little fingers sparkled. She had always hoped to rise, eventually perhaps to Captain of the Gold, commanding fleets, as her mother had. As a girl, she had even dreamed of being named the Hand of the Empress at Sea just like her mother, to stand at the left hand of the Crystal Throne, so’jhin to the Empress herself, might she live forever, allowed to speak directly to her.

Winter Heart - Chapter 21 'A Matter of Property' - Egeanin point of view

However Egeanin was not part of the Imperial Family, nor the (low) Blood until Suroth raised her up (WH, Ch.20).


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


I know this has been addressed in other threads, but I'm trying to gather information for this topic.

...

So this mean it's likely that the real rulers of Shara are the female channelers.

Rhuarc once claimed that the Trollocs invaded Shara during the Trollocs Wars. Based on that, Sea Folk sources, 'Farstrider' writings, Sammael's pov, Aran'gar comments, Mayene writings, Valan Luca tales, it seems that the Shadow really did beat all the locals in Shara during the Trollocs Wars. Who was behind the Trollocs Wars? Ishamael, now known as Moridin. Who controls Shara from the top-down ultimately? Moridin & the Dark One.



Who corrupted 'Prophecies of the Dragon ', 'The Karaethon Cycle' in Seanchan? Ishamael, via his influence upon Luthair Paendrag. (TPoD, Ch. 24 'A Time for Iron' - Miraj pov).

In essence, Ishamael/Moridin set-up the grounds years ago for Seanchan to fall to Shara's forces: Ishamael's birthing policy in Shara, the use a'dam & the lack of children born from damane in Seanchan, and a large force of Seanchan's sul'dam & damane sent out of continent to the Westlands. Seanchan was purposefully weakened in advance of a Sharan invasion.

Even the lack of children among Aes Sedai & Kin has over a series of two thousand years set-up the Westlands to be out numbered in the Last Battle. Ishamael and the Dark One have been systematically capturing Souls with the Talent of Channeling, by this global birth control policy.



Although one individual can give the side of the Light a better fight chance to right this imbalance: Empress Fortuona. How? By giving a writ of freedom to many if not all of the damane she possesses as property. Doing so, would also protect her authority to rule as Empress ironically. Why would Fortuona do this? To save the lives of her People. Mylen whom Fortuona trusts, knows of Linked Circles. Which is more important to Fortuona? Survival in the face of Shadowspawn led siege of Ebou Dar (an AMoL prediction) or a Tradition of using the a'dam? Fortuona/Tuon's thoughts in Winter's Heart, Chapter 14 'What a Veils Hides' suggests she will choose survivial. Fortuona is fond her own personal damane: Dali, Dani, Charral, Sera, Myelin.

Loyalty can be earned, it does not require an a'dam.

Paraprosdokian
11-28-2010, 06:09 AM
I'm afraid I'll have to disagree. To conclude that the invasion of Seanchan is by the Sharans is a huge leap to make.

It seems the basis of your argument is that the Greatship's sails are red, as are the veils of the so-called Aiel. You'd need to assume that both the Blighted Aiel and the Greatships are Sharan to make that leap. There is little supporting evidence for that.

What is your evidence that Osan'gar is in Shara (rather than with Rand, who has been watching him that whole time?) He wears red lace.

I'm sure that many things in WoT are red, but that does not suggest there is a great Communist peril to the East.

In order to invade Seanchan, the Sharans must have had to assemble a large fleet of Greatships. It took the Seanchan decades to build as many as they did. There is evidence they did this - any Sea Folk ships that sailed towards Seanchan disappeared. There is no evidence that the Sharans have Greatships at all or had any naval capacity. Plus, they would have had to sail across the entire length of the Westlands and then over the Aryth Ocean without being seen. That almost beggars belief.

It would be far more consistent to interpret the passages you rely on as Seanchan Greatships fighting in a civil war. If it was a war against the Sharans, then clearly the Towers of Midnight would have been manned long ago.

The Immortal One
11-28-2010, 08:04 AM
As far as I can remember, there is only one group of people who actually use veils strictly. These are of course, Sharans.
Remember that the Taraboners also wear veils. And most Taraboners serve the Seanchan. And the only greatships we have heard of, beside the red-sailed ones, have been Seanchan (not that I believe it means anything).


I don't remember any of the details of the passage we're talking about but is there any indication of the other red-veiled people having pointed teeth, or is it just the first one - the one who attacks Barriga? Perhaps it is a personal choice rather than a cultural one.

Also, pointed teeth doesn't necessarily imply cannibalism - many savage peoples in fiction, and a few in history, have pointed or filed teeth without being cannibals.

Finally, covering their faces normally and then uncovering them only for killing seems to be something which would greatly amuse the Dark One or the Forsaken - purposely twisting and perverting the customs of the Aiel (though whether this implies they are, or are not, Aiel is open to debate).


One other thought: perhaps these are Aiel from a mirror world. The grolm are from mirror worlds aren't they? Isn't it just as likely that some people who are almost, but not quite, Aiel are from a similar world where the Aiel evolved slightly differently? Another point which may point to this is that the portal stones have been mentioned again (the first time in about 8 books) in Perrin and the Whitecloak's battle against Trollocs - perhaps this happened simply to remind us that the portal stones still exist and the Shadow can use them.

Bladesoar
11-28-2010, 04:33 PM
@FelixPax
Wow that is a pretty interesting theory you got going there. To be honest I didn't think twice about the current state of Shara nor of the invasion of Seanchan. My mind is extremely muddy in terms of the Seanchan invasion because as I've said I really need to re-read. However, there is much merit in what you say. A few things I disagree with though: I'm not sure who or how the Sharans are currently administered. I believe it has to be a Forsaken, although I don't think the people are publicly aware of this. I think this is done covertly, kind of like Sammael in Illian. He ruled but no one knew he was a Forsaken except for the other Forsaken and Rand. This ties in with Sharans and the breeding ground for the Shadow. I doubt that this is the case. I don't think the Trolloc invasion of Shara was successful. Sharans have way too many channelers to have lost that war I think.

I do believe however, that someone a Forsaken ruling Sharan could very well have staged the invasion of Seanchan while it is weakened because of their civil war and how half their forces are in the West as you pointed out. This Forsaken might have stirred the Sharans and led them to believe it was in their best interest to invade Seanchan. In fact this may have been planned by Moridin hundreds of years before as you said. Thanks, now I have more to think about!

@Paraprosdokian
That invasion of Seanchan by Sharans is indeed a huge leap but it can't be discarded completely I don't think. Remember Ishamael has been active for different periods of time since the Bore. He was the only one. So for those small periods that he was freed he could've set the groundwork for the Sharans to prepare.

For example, you say there is no evidence the Sharans have a naval fleet or any naval capacity and the reason the Seanchans had such an evidence before was because Sea Folk ships disappeared when they sailed there (to Seanchan). So with this in mind, let me put to you this: There are only a few ports that ships can actually dock in in Shara. Any ships seen at any other proximity from land or in another dock is immediately dealt with by Sharan channelers and whatnot. And if I remember correctly these ports are all on the southwestern side of Shara. How about all those other ports that are offlimits to non-Sharans? How about all those ports located on the eastern side of Shara? Since no one has seen them, because they get destroyed before even getting close, then we could assume they have a naval fleet according to your logic. It may be that the very reason that Sharans have these ports so strictly off-limits is because they have been secretly building all these ships-- much like the Seanchan did. That would be quite amusing if the Sharans put it back on Seanchan and invaded THEM... haha.

@The Immortal One
Yes, I don't think that the sharp teeth mean their cannibals personally. I don't remember if grolm are from another world or if they actually simply inhabit different mirror worlds. For example, when Rand used the portal stone way back when with Loial and Hurin I believe, I was always under impression in retrospect that he had used the portal stone to get to Seanchan, not a different world. But then again, I don't know much about portal stones, because since they stopped being mentioned in the series, I stopped paying attention to them. But you make a very good point that all of a sudden it's mentioned again.

It's very possible in my opinion that the Shadow is using portal stones to bring deadly creatures from other worlds and that these "aiel" could be from there. I don't discard this possibility. In fact I think quite feasible. In the Runelords, a series by David Farland, in one of the books the evil dark overlord being uses shadow worlds to bring deadly and evil creatures in to fight for it. In the realm of science fiction, this is definitely a possibility. In fact since the Shadow doesn't SEEM (not saying they don't just saying they don't seem) to be able to pose much of a threat yet, using portal stones to bring deadly creatures from other worlds could be a way to make the Shadow more of a threat. Thanks for this!

looqas
11-29-2010, 03:39 AM
my gut feeling.

Red Veil Aiel = Snakes aka Aelfinn.

Although a Shadow Aiel is quite strong guess...

The Immortal One
11-29-2010, 09:28 AM
Red Veil Aiel = Snakes aka Aelfinn.

???

Other than the pointed teeth, the red veiled "Aiel" were almost certainly human. The snakes are fairly obviously NOT; when Mat met them in Tear (or rather through the doorway Ter'angreal in Tear) he realised they were not human in seconds.

CreationEdge
12-01-2010, 10:46 AM
People say that the the Sharans don't go anywhere unless veiled. That's not the correct description. It was already quoted, but here again:

"Sharan merchants are unwilling even to allow the truth of their appearance to be known, walking among outsiders only when cloaked and veiled."

As in, the covered their whole bodies up. Not JUST their faces. And it was the traveling merchants who did this. I assume for the same reason they keep walls around all their cities. They hide the truth from you.

This is inconsistent with wearing merely a veil that they remove to kill you.

And if Sharans of any kind had pointed teeth, I'm sure it would have come up. Either in Farstrider's stories, Aiel or Seafolk rumors, or in the musings of some Forsaken. Alas, it is not so.




Also, there was a comment about Trollocs trying to entire Shara during the Trolloc Wars. It always seemed to me that the story was trying to tell you that Sharans held their own and defended against the invasion (considering their culture is designed to keep invaders OUT, and that they have the Ayyad to defend them. Whereas Randland had only the Aes Sedai, which were such a great help to Malkier)

Bladesoar
12-01-2010, 03:42 PM
Right. It's exactly because they're veiled and cloaked and we don't know about their appearance that it can be hypothesized that they are the same as these red veiled Aiel with their sharp teeth etc. Jain didn't write about everything, nor did he go everywhere, nor did he tell everyone everything. Seakfolk only go to the ports they're allowed to dock in, and as few as they are, the Sharans are always cloaked and veiled. And as you said, their cities have walls so you can't see anything from the outside. The Forsaken themselves may or may not know. Kind of with the death of Asmodean. Some didn't even think he was dead. They don't know everything. And as I said before, I doubt Trollocs successfully invaded Shara, on that I agree with you, CreationEdge. Obviously this is just a theory, doesn't mean that it will definitely happen this why, it just seems to me to be the most likely possibility.

CreationEdge
12-02-2010, 08:36 AM
No. The traveling merchants were veiled, it didn't say everyone the Seafolk saw were cloak and veiled.

The Forsaken SAW and mentioned people from Shara. That's how we know about the Ayyad and their tattoos. If we heard about that stuff, then I'm sure pointy teeth would've come into it.

And no, Jain/Seafolk/Aiel don't see everything... But, that doesn't SUPPORT the Shara argument at all.

I can accept that it doesn't support EITHER, though.

GonzoTheGreat
12-02-2010, 08:49 AM
Tattoos to mark out the Ayyad would be pretty pointless if everyone went around veiled the whole time.

CreationEdge
12-02-2010, 10:04 AM
Tattoos to mark out the Ayyad would be pretty pointless if everyone went around veiled the whole time.

I'm not sure what you're getting at.
The Ayyad are tattooed, we know that.

Daekyras
12-02-2010, 10:32 AM
Maybe they're a new type of Myrdraal. Skin-jobs if you will.

Scrap that, man, I gotta stop watching Galactica.

GonzoTheGreat
12-02-2010, 11:05 AM
I'm not sure what you're getting at.
The Ayyad are tattooed, we know that.We know that, but if everyone over there walks around wearing a Caspar the Friendly Ghost outfit the whole time, then no one can actually see those tattoos.
So, from fact that they're wearing tattoos that are supposed to be noticed I conclude that wearing such covering veils is not standard fashion.

As an aside: some (or all) female merchants might very well be Ayyad.

Casabamelon
12-02-2010, 01:39 PM
Maybe they're a new type of Myrdraal. Skin-jobs if you will.

Scrap that, man, I gotta stop watching Galactica.

Whatever you do, don't watch the last half of the last season!
________
PUBLIC BASEBALL (http://www.fucktube.com/categories/928/baseball/videos/1)

Juan
12-02-2010, 03:10 PM
Just so everyone knows (I'm Bladesoar... Except I decided I kinda wanted a simpler name. So I changed it to this one... haha). So this is going to be my new account.

Alright, so, about the cloaked and veiled-ness (which isn't really a word) about the Sharans and all that, they only are cloaked and veiled with outsiders. For all we know, they could go naked in private inside their walls.

trimysmalls
12-02-2010, 05:59 PM
I thought RJ stated that nothing of Shara would be involved in the books.

That was awhile ago, so maybe I'm remembering it wrong.

I'm guessing the sharp teeth people are Aiel turned by the Shadow, or tainted by the Blight.

CreationEdge
12-02-2010, 06:58 PM
He said no SCENES would take place in Seanchan or Shara, but didn't exclude the possibility of Sharans being involved.

trimysmalls
12-02-2010, 08:56 PM
Alrighty. I knew he said something about the place :)

I sort of hope they are not from Shara. To wait until the very end of the second to last book for them to make that sort of appearance... I like the idea of Aiel forcibly turned to the Shadow.

Juan
12-02-2010, 09:35 PM
Right I pointed that out before. I said RJ had said we wouldn't see scenes either in Seanchan or Shara. But that doesn't mean Shara won't be involved. Note the are no scenes in Seanchan and yet the Seanchan are quite important to the plotline. It's likely Shara will play a part. I'm hoping they do.

FelixPax
12-23-2010, 03:24 PM
"They were men, wearing red veils over their faces. They walked at a crouch, scanning the terrain, short spears worn on their backs."

So where are the red-veiled women at? Again? ;)


http://moronia.us/front/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/terrorist_porn.jpg

Terez
12-23-2010, 03:38 PM
Nice work!

Sei'taer
12-23-2010, 04:01 PM
A couple of things from me, just to keep things going because I like this sort of "what if" stuff.

How do hard glassy eyes express glee? It's just a curiosity is all. He could have been mistaking the look.

Do we know that they actually killed Barriga? It doesn't say. It says "something terrible." it's likely that they could have taken him rather than killed him.

I don't think they are Aiel. I think they are people who live in the blight and are hardened and maybe even a little corrupted by it, but they will be the ones to help the armies who know zip about fighting in the blight because they have done it from birth. RJ made a big deal out of the living conditions in the waste, the living conditions in the blight might be worse, but humans adapt. They become a product of it. They might be nutty and weird as hell, but the aiel seem that way to southerners. I just think we should entertain the possibility that while they might be weird from living in the blight, they might not be bad guys either.

Cor Shan
12-28-2010, 05:30 AM
After checking out the BWB, I have to think that the red ships are Sharan (unless we know this for a fact and my absence from TL has made me out of date), just look at how close they are (unless the BWB skipped a lot of ocean) compared to Seanchan and the Main Continent.

So Shara is probably the best candidate, and its not a village of super-fremen... er... Aiel. My two cents anyways.

da'caballien
12-31-2010, 08:40 PM
Where the red-masted ships on the east coast of Seanchan? If so, I don't believe they're Sharan.

But back on subject, I do believe that the Red-Veiled Aiel are, in fact, some kind of evil Aiel. Until more information comes along(like in a preview chapter of something), there just isn't enough information to support the Sharan hypothesis.

Juan
12-31-2010, 08:55 PM
Sure there is. You could also say there isn't enough to support the evil Aiel hypothesis.

danmickleson
01-01-2011, 09:19 AM
Can anyone categorically rule out that we've seen these before? I have a nagging feeling they're a recurrence rather than something new.

If new - either Sharan (wasn't there a story somewhere, maybe from Noal/Jain, about them filing their teeth?) or the Jenn Aiel (or have we learnt about them?).

The alarming amount of male channeling being detected by the Asha'man from the Shadow (Maradon, powering the portal stone when Perrin and the Whitecloaks were attacked, etc) I think may be explained by the Aiel channelers (it's either that or the Black Tower, which is surely where Demandred is, whether or not he is Taim - he may have killed the real Taim after the battle of Shadar Logoth and assumed his identity), but I don't think the Aiel channelers are the red veils.

The Immortal One
01-02-2011, 01:38 AM
The alarming amount of male channeling being detected by the Asha'man from the Shadow (Maradon, powering the portal stone when Perrin and the Whitecloaks were attacked, etc) I think may be explained by the Aiel channelers (it's either that or the Black Tower, which is surely where Demandred is, whether or not he is Taim - he may have killed the real Taim after the battle of Shadar Logoth and assumed his identity), but I don't think the Aiel channelers are the red veils.

'The alarming amount'??? There have only been one channeller detected by Perrin's Asha'man (and though described as fairly weak he was apparently strong enough to portal in an army of 100,000 trollocs or more). And perhaps a handful in Maradon - enough to break down the city wall.

We know for a fact (almost, in some people's opinion) that Taim's 100+ lackeys are all Darkfriends.



Sure there is. You could also say there isn't enough to support the evil Aiel hypothesis.

What? They look like Aiel and they act EVIL. What more do you need to support the theory.

The only thing which supports the Shara theory is that we haven't heard much from them and the fans want it to be.

Juan
01-02-2011, 02:41 AM
Definitely not. They dress similar to Aiel except in their red veils. But they don't look Aiel. Remember the dark eyes? That's definitely not an Aiel characteristics. We don't have anything else that points to them being Aiel except for their clothing and anyone who wanted to impersonate the Aiel can simply buy or make that style of clothing and dress up like one. Aiel changing their light eyes to dark eyes is much more difficult to do. I think this probability goes with them not being Aiel.

I put forth many arguments in favor of the Sharan theory in my original post. (Remember Bladesoar is my old account). To me it seems that the Sharan theory has more of a possibility than the evil Aiel theory.

ckparrothead
01-04-2011, 04:30 AM
There's a very minor character...by the name of Ajimbura. He is the manservant of Furyk Karede, the Deathwatch Guard Banner-General.

I believe Ajimbura's description is in Chapter 34 - A Cup of Kaf, in Knife of Dreams...if someone wants to look it up (I don't have the resources)

Anyway, he's a member of a hill tribe in Seanchan that resides in the Kaensada Hills.

Maybe I'm remembering this wrong, but I thought there were aspects of his description that suggested that those hill tribes are cannibals that were subdued by the Ever Victorious Army.

Just a thought. Seanchan is a mess. The Empress is killed. The continent is in disarray and civil war. Perhaps some descendants of the Armies of Midnight have been scooped up by the right Forsaken (ahem, Demandred)...or maybe they're not descendants of the Armies or Midnight, just indigenous cannibals that were subdued until all hell broke loose in Seanchan.

Though I kind of like the idea that they came from the Isle of Madmen.

EDIT: Never mind, there's a specific note that says that "dark eyes cannot be found in these near-mountains" whatever that means (wiki). Makes me actually wonder if that note was stuck in there ahead of time to prevent confusion about the dark eyed red-veiled cannibals with filed teeth that would later appear...make sure we know that they're NOT part of the hill tribes in Kaensada Hills.

GonzoTheGreat
01-04-2011, 05:49 AM
Jedi hand wave: "These are not the cannibals you are looking for."

Paraprosdokian
02-04-2011, 09:55 AM
I previously hypothesised that the Jenn and the Age of Legends Aes Sedai interbred, and that perhaps the red veiled Aiel are their descendants.

Here is far more concrete proof that they did interbreed:


Question: "Was the Aes Sedai who initiated the Pact of Rhuidean from the Age of Legends?" (From TSR).
Jordan: (Pause)"No." (Pause)"No, she was not from the Age of Legends."

Who else could that incredibly old Aes Sedai have been if not for an Aes Sedai from the Age of Legends? It can't be one of the present bunch of Aes Sedai (since almost nothing is known of the Aiel Waste by the White Tower). Therefore, the most likely candidate is that one of the Age of Legends Aes Sedai accompanying the Jenn Aiel interbred with a Jenn and produced a female Aes Sedai.

If that is firmly established, then that punctures a large hole in the theory that the Jenn died out because the Aes Sedai died out (since if the Jenn and Aes Sedai interbred, there would be an endless supply of Aes Sedai). So, that begs the question, what happened to the Jenn?

The Jenn lasted for a very long time. They lasted long enough for the offspring of an Age of Legends Aes Sedai to have become impossibly old. So why would they have died out when they had reached (relative) safety in Rhuidean where they had a city ready built and almost ready to have a steady water supply? Why would they have died out when they had Aes Sedai to protect them?

I think its because they left for the Blight (for whatever reason) and were corrupted.

GonzoTheGreat
02-04-2011, 10:11 AM
It could have been a White Tower AS who went there because of a foretelling she (or someone else) had had. Just as Rand's mother did, more or less.

ChubbyAiel
02-04-2011, 10:21 AM
If that is firmly established, then that punctures a large hole in the theory that the Jenn died out because the Aes Sedai died out (since if the Jenn and Aes Sedai interbred, there would be an endless supply of Aes Sedai).

Not necessarily. It could be that some Aes Sedai interbred with the Aiel, but that these lines evenutally failed, or resulted in non-channellers. Maybe after a generation or so, the new generation of Aes Sedai decided to hold themselves apart from relationships with men, as western Aes Sedai tend to do, or maybe having such a powerful wife didn't appeal to the Jenn Aiel men, as we're told in the books it does not to Wetlander men.

I would also think that a channeller isn't guaranteed to have channeller babies. The ability might skip generations and the genealogies of the descendants of those Aes Sedai might have been forgotten about. Maybe recessive channeller genes (if they are recessive) were masked by the dominant non-channeller gene for a few generations. There is no reason to assume there would be an "endless supply of Aes Sedai".

Juan
02-04-2011, 06:07 PM
The AS may have been an AS trained by an AS from the Age of Legends. Which would explain why RJ had to think about it since the AS is note quite from the Age of Legends, but she's close to it.

da'caballien
02-07-2011, 01:25 AM
The Jenn are stated, I'm not sure where, to have mainly died off because of defections to the other Aiel clans. More people defected than stayed and had kids.

FelixPax
02-07-2011, 07:16 PM
What? They look like Aiel and they act EVIL. What more do you need to support the theory.

The only thing which supports the Shara theory is that we haven't heard much from them and the fans want it to be.


Oh, really?

Perhaps rumors in books can be true?



“If it pleases the Light, I will speak with both of you,” Malin din Toral said, looking from Aviendha to Birgitte, “but I think I must hear your story first.” Birgitte began to look alarmed as the woman sat down across from her.

“Which means I can speak first with you, if it pleases the Light,” Dorile din Eiran told Aviendha. “I have read of the Aiel. If it pleases you, tell me, if an Aiel woman must kill a man every day, how are there any men left among you?”

Aviendha did her best not to stare. How could the woman believe such nonsense?

“When did you live among us?” Malin din Toral said over her teacup at the near end of the table. Birgitte was leaning away from her as though she wanted to climb over the back of the chair.

...

“Are you well, Aviendha?” Dorile din Eiran asked. “Even here, the motion of a ship sometimes affects shorefolk—No? And my questions do not offend? Then tell me. Do Aiel women truly tie a man down before you—I mean, when you and he—when you—” Cheeks reddened, she broke off with a weak smile. “Are many Aiel women as strong in the One Power as you?”

A Crown of Swords, Chapter 13 "The Bowl of the Winds" -- Aviendha point of view

With Elayne, Nynaeve, Birgitte, Dorile din Eiran Long Feather(Windfinder), Malin din Toral (Clan Mistress), Nesta din Reas, Baroc


Rumors written in books, purchased from Southern Shara walled up port-towns? Cities who regularly were visited by the Sea Folk peoples.

Whereas, the Sea Folk people do not leave the water for the desert.

Who is Dorile's sources of book knowledge about the Aiel Women with scarves?


The Red Veiled Aiel Women of Shara, who's S&M life-style has been manipulated by the Shadow & Ishamael/Moridin. PPSD: Pain, Pleasure, Slavery & Death. An extremely form of BDSM.

Spasmodean
02-07-2011, 07:46 PM
I like how no-one has brought up the possibility that they are the last of the Malkieri :)

thomas
02-09-2011, 07:21 PM
Sorry if i missed this while reading but what is the timeframe for this event? As we know some of the characters are a couple months behind others and the reason i ask is because one of the advantages of being the DR is the ability to propose when TG occurs (the DO is sealed up and arguably even if he sends his whole army against Rand now its still not the Last Battle, since its not at SG and they are not fighting each other). Now if the sighting of the red veiled individual is a few hours or a day or two AFTER whatever happens at Merrilor (? on spelling) and Rand's army is moving then this is VERY strong evidence that the red veil is part of the DO's forces because its very understandable why they would be mobilising right now, otherwise why? Its an incredible coincidence they just so happen to be moving now of all times and so far we have no other (justifiable) reasons they would be moving at all.

This was really aimed at the whole Jenn/Sedai comments and the argument they might be good. My apologies if i misread the chapter, in that case ignore me.

thomas
02-09-2011, 07:46 PM
...On the other hand they COULD be the true people of the dragon...i know we think its the aiel, but this fits the prophecies better (he will break them by the leaf) and the Jenn aiel are admitted to be the TRUE aiel, if we speculate they went into the blight because of the prophecies concerning the dragon and still holding onto the way of the leaf, and have become insane...

Nowhere does it say he will DIRECTLY break them by the way of the leaf, and to have the way of the leaf in a place of such violence and chaos so close to the DO's influence could very well break them, they are now crazy savages, dispicable remnants of their former selves. This also fits in with Aviendhas future-seeing(?) and the other prophecies (but a remnant of a remnant will be left), in this case Aviendhas thing is 100% true and the aiel WILL die out but they are not the remnant that it concerns, in other words it is too late for them, the Wise ones are desperately trying to uphold their own prophecies so some can be saved not realising the only ones to be saved are those who held to the fortellings which needed to be fulfilled in preparation for the Dragons coming in the first place.

I know considering the narrative Aviendha will probably do something, but that would be such an awesome plot twist and call me a cynic but i would LOVE the ending to not be all roses.

I will try and look up the prophecies and such again, if i missed something stupid my apologies :)

Juan
02-10-2011, 03:46 PM
@Spas
Because the Malkieri are with Lan or living in other lands (those who were able to survive/escape). And the others were killed off.

@thomas
no need for apologies, we get along here. (for the most part.... :P)

rmcfarla51
04-02-2011, 11:55 PM
Has anyone brought up the possibility that they are Aiel that Padan Fain has got his hands on and twisted?

That at least makes the teeth part make sense.

GonzoTheGreat
04-03-2011, 05:02 AM
Frankly, I don't think Fain has the patience for that. He would get bored half way through the project, and eat the lot himself.

zel
04-14-2011, 10:44 PM
Why can't they be constructions ala Aginor's creations.

Zombie Sammael
04-15-2011, 05:05 AM
They're almost certainly the "_____ in the Blight" RJ spoke of on his deathbed, aren't they? I still think that might be "tribe of Aiel".