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View Full Version : New Faction: Moiraine and the Last Battle


ShadowbaneX
11-23-2010, 01:49 AM
We believe that Moiraine will be leading the circle with Nynaeve, Rand and Callandor during the Last Battle (http://www.theoryland.com/factions.php?func=4&rec=197).

So, yeah, join it...or not.

FelixPax
11-23-2010, 02:10 AM
We believe that Moiraine will be leading the circle with Nynaeve, Rand and Callandor during the Last Battle (http://www.theoryland.com/factions.php?func=4&rec=197).

So, yeah, join it...or not.


Not.

Nynaeve has specifically claimed she would NEVER link with another Saidin channeling male, ever again in her thoughts. See KoD, Chapter 20 'Golden Crane'.

jana
11-23-2010, 02:13 AM
Nynaeve has specifically claimed she would NEVER linked with another Saidin channeling male, ever again in her thoughts.

I'm officially convinced that you're a troll and don't mean anything you say. You had to ignore ToM to say this, and I know you read it.

yks 6nnetu hing
11-23-2010, 03:26 AM
joined (brigitta... that's me)

makes perfect sense: Mat had to give up half of the light of the world to save the world - to save Moiraine. So Moiraine is necessary for saving the world, therefore it's logical to assume she'll be in the circle with Nynaeve and Rand.

Either that or she's the Creator in disguise. Edit: ooh! like in Dogma where God had taken on mortal form and had to be unplugged in order to restore order...

jana
11-23-2010, 04:05 AM
so Moiraine is Alanis Morissette

yks 6nnetu hing
11-23-2010, 04:09 AM
yes!

although I think Alanis Morissette is a bit too tall...

jana
11-23-2010, 04:35 AM
yes!

although I think Alanis Morissette is a bit too tall...

Only by 2 or 3 inches :D

She's just naked a lot and has long hair, so she looks taller :P

LewsTherin10
11-23-2010, 08:07 AM
Not.

Nynaeve has specifically claimed she would NEVER link with another Saidin channeling male, ever again in her thoughts. See KoD, Chapter 20 'Golden Crane'.
See ToM where Rand explicitly tells Nynaeve that he wants her to come to Shayol Ghul with him to use Callandor and she agrees.

With that being said, I think Alivia is going to be the other woman to link with Callandor. I haven't quite figured out what Moiraine's role is yet. I thought that she would have been the one to bring Rand "back to the light" but that's done already. My best guess is that she might have some information on how to seal the Bore or defeat the Dark One.

Masuri
11-23-2010, 08:52 AM
I'm in! Everything seems to point towards it. Min's viewing, Mat having to give up half the light of the world to save the world, Rand thinking about how he trusted her and mentioning her name when talking to Nynaeve about going to Shayol Ghul, etc. Nynaeve even said she missed her at one point. And how ironic is it that the two of them would be involved and working together considering how their relationship started?

amazinglarry
11-23-2010, 09:44 AM
I don't think Moiraine will be the 3rd. I haven't seem much to foreshadow that, other than that having her around will be necessary to win the LB. I'm still leaning towards Lanfear being the 3rd...

2 of Moiraine's 3 wishes from the Eelfinn were left as a cliffhanger at the end of ToM. I wonder if one of the these will turn out to be instrumental for sealing the bore or completing some other LB-related task?

amazinglarry

ShadowbaneX
11-23-2010, 02:28 PM
That Rand would trust Moiraine is part of the idea behind this. The other is the *'finn's siphoning of her channeling abilities. Without the angreal she's not even strong enough to become an Accepted. Why do that? What's the point? Giving her just enough ability to make Thom a Warder? Doesn't seem quite right.

However, we know that novices can link, so Moiraine has enough ability to link. If that's the case then it doesn't matter at all how much she can channel, especially if she's hooked up to Nynaeve and Rand with Callandor to provide the boost.

There's also something that's rattling around in my brain about Callandor and it's 'even greater flaw', but that's not related to this.

jana
11-23-2010, 03:17 PM
There are good arguments for others, but in my personal opinion they all fail in regards to poignancy compared to it being Moiraine and Nynaeve.

It would bring the series full circle. I actually feel a tiny bit emotional just thinking about how awesome it would be.



To have something that important be Nynaeve and Al... what's her name? Oh ya, she's been in about 5 pages of the series. The only reason I remember Alivia's name is because it's easy to spell :P. That would sure be a wonderful scene to read about. A character I don't give a crap about.

and Lanfear... the idea of Lanfear doing it, when she's the reason I had to be Moiraine-less for 7 books. That thought makes me want to puke.

sleepinghour
11-23-2010, 04:21 PM
To have something that important be Nynaeve and Al... what's her name? Oh ya, she's been in about 5 pages of the series. The only reason I remember Alivia's name is because it's easy to spell :P. That would sure be a wonderful scene to read about. A character I don't give a crap about.

I wonder if that isn't the point, though. We want the characters we've cared about for 20 years to do heroic stuff and get all the glory. So why is Alivia the one who will help Rand die? Nobody particularly cares about Alivia.

One possibility is that Alivia herself will die in the process. That would be a strong argument against the leashing of damane: the Seanchan's strongest damane was unleashed, but instead of destroying the world, she sacrificed her life to save it.

Furthermore, the other female channelers are either bound by the Three Oaths (Moiraine, Egwene, Nynaeve) or in love with Rand (Elayne, Aviendha). We don't know exactly how Alivia will help Rand die, but if Rand says "balefire me as soon as I jump Moridin," it's doubtful if any of the others would be able to do that. Alivia is not bound by any oaths and has no emotional connection to Rand beyond gratitude.

Davian93
11-23-2010, 04:23 PM
One possibility is that Alivia will die herself in the process. That would be a strong argument against the leashing of damane: the Seanchan's strongest damane was unleashed, but instead of destroying the world, she sacrificed her life to save it.

You know, I like this.

It doesnt interfere with this Faction though...which I fully support.

jana
11-23-2010, 04:25 PM
I wonder if that isn't the point, though. We want the characters we've cared about for 20 years to do heroic stuff and get all the glory. So why is Alivia the one who will help Rand die? Nobody particularly cares about Alivia.

One possibility is that Alivia herself will die in the process. That would be a strong argument against the leashing of damane: the Seanchan's strongest damane was unleashed, but instead of destroying the world, she sacrificed her life to save it.

Furthermore, the other female channelers are either bound by the Three Oaths (Moiraine, Egwene, Nynaeve) or in love with Rand (Elayne, Aviendha). We don't know exactly how Alivia will help Rand die, but if Rand says "balefire me as soon as I jump Moridin," it's doubtful if any of the others would be able to do that. Alivia is not bound by any oaths and has no emotional connection to Rand beyond gratitude.

Alivia just doesn't make sense for me. Why won't they both help him die if they're linked? Why just Alivia? Her helping him die is unrelated to callandor, imo. I agree that she'll die in the process. She's another character whose death wouldn't be too devastating (see: Noal).

The Oaths are irrelevant in this case. I'm pretty sure they can use the OP against the DO if they can use it against his followers.

Caveatar
11-23-2010, 04:46 PM
There are good arguments for others, but in my personal opinion they all fail in regards to poignancy compared to it being Moiraine and Nynaeve.

It would bring the series full circle. I actually feel a tiny bit emotional just thinking about how awesome it would be.



Five ride out.
(I know it was Lan, Moiraine, Thom, Egwene, Rand, Mat, Perrin and Nynaeve chased them.

Moiraine because she was worth one of Mat's eyes and because I like her.
Nynaeve because she cares for others and that girl goes hunting brown bears with a SWITCH! And bags them too.
Perrin for BELIEF.
Mat for ORDER. (0.5^24 is some hellacious ordering folks. when two dozen coins land heads.)
Rand because he is the Champion of the Light.

Nynaeve should convince Egwene to take the entire white tower to help Lan.

metaphor
11-23-2010, 04:56 PM
Why would Moiraine lead the circle? Rand has much more knowledge than her on how to seal the bore. Nynaeve is more likely than her for the role, given that she can do things that were impossible in the age of legends.
Moiraine isn't even strong in the power nowadays.

That's if Rand will have to link to women to use Callandor at all.
That theory is based on the idea that the flaw is something they have to control, and not the reason Callandor is so special and important.

jana
11-23-2010, 05:02 PM
Why would Moiraine lead the circle? Rand has much more knowledge than her on how to seal the bore. Nynaeve is more likely than her for the role, given that she can do things that were impossible in the age of legends.
Moiraine isn't even strong in the power nowadays.

That's if Rand will have to link to women to use Callandor at all.
That theory is based on the idea that the flaw is something they have to control, and not the reason Callandor is so special and important.


I'm not going to argue much of this. Most Callandor theories are based on the assumption that Cadsuane was right when she said a woman needed to lead it. It's a completely different argument than "who will be involved, if this is how it's going to happen." Whether it's Nynaeve or Moiraine leading the circle is a very minor point, imo.

So I'm only going to address this:

Moiraine isn't even strong in the power nowadays.

I've never been more sure about anything in the series than I am about One Power strength being completely irrelevant when facing the Dark One. Especially the One Power strength of the two women involved if killing him involves Callandor. Rand seems to feel the same way, considering he wants someone he trusts. He never once thinks or says that he needs a strong channeler. He picked Nynaeve because he trusts her. Not because she's powerful.

ShadowLord
11-23-2010, 05:02 PM
I think Alivia.

jana
11-23-2010, 05:04 PM
I think Alivia.

Why didn't Rand mention her to Nynaeve?


Odd. I kept wondering why the thread has one star, so I went to rate it and it says I already rated it. I think I misclicked. Oops.

Sukoto
11-23-2010, 05:08 PM
That's if Rand will have to link to women to use Callandor at all.
That theory is based on the idea that the flaw is something they have to control, and not the reason Callandor is so special and important.
It's actually because of the "three shall be as one" prophecy that most people believe Rand will link with two women. Whether it's out of necessity or not doesn't seem all that relevant.

GonzoTheGreat
11-23-2010, 05:09 PM
You can't rate an already rated thread. That's an amusing* bug of this particular verson of vBulletin.

* If someone has another explanation I'd be interested in hearing it.

jana
11-23-2010, 05:09 PM
It's actually because of the "three shall be as one" prophecy that most people believe Rand will link with two women. Whether it's out of necessity or not doesn't seem all that relevant.

Plus he specifically states (several times) that he needs women with him. Even if it wasn't a prophecy, this would be how he feels, because he thinks that was a major reason why it didn't go well last time.

metaphor
11-23-2010, 05:27 PM
I'm not going to argue much of this. Most Callandor theories are based on the assumption that Cadsuane was right when she said a woman needed to lead it. It's a completely different argument than "who will be involved, if this is how it's going to happen." Whether it's Nynaeve or Moiraine leading the circle is a very minor point, imo.



I don't think it's a minor point. Moiraine hasn't shown any ability or talent that could suggest that she's the best option to seal the bore.
It's more likely that her role will be something else.

It's actually because of the "three shall be as one" prophecy that most people believe Rand will link with two women. Whether it's out of necessity or not doesn't seem all that relevant.


I know. i just think the 3 who will become one doesn't refer to a circle to wield callandor.
Just my opinion though.

Plus he specifically states (several times) that he needs women with him. Even if it wasn't a prophecy, this would be how he feels, because he thinks that was a major reason why it didn't go well last time.

Because he's convinced that the Flaw is a problem that they must resolve, and not an opportunity that he must use.

jana
11-23-2010, 05:34 PM
I don't think it's a minor point. Moiraine hasn't shown any ability or talent that could suggest that she's the best option to seal the bore.
It's more likely that her role will be something else.

It's a minor point to me because I don't care at all who leads the circle. I only care about who's involved. Nobody has shown any ability or talent that could suggest they're the best option to seal the bore except Lews Therin. We don't know what it entails. We are assuming Cadsuane is correct about a woman needing to lead it. Perhaps the faction should be more vague, and merely say who the three will be.

Because he's convinced that the Flaw is a problem that they must resolve, and not an opportunity that he must use.

I think you're missing a major theme of the series if you think he's wrong about needing women to help him.

metaphor
11-23-2010, 05:44 PM
It's a minor point to me because I don't care at all who leads the circle. I only care about who's involved. Nobody has shown any ability or talent that could suggest they're the best option to seal the bore except Lews Therin. We don't know what it entails. We are assuming Cadsuane is correct about a woman needing to lead it. Perhaps the faction should be more vague, and merely say who the three will be.

Yeah, but the thread is specifically about Moiraine leading the circle, so, regardless of whether it's a minor point or not, it is what the thread is about :D


I think you're missing a major theme of the series if you think he's wrong about needing women to help him.


I did not say he won't need the help of women. I said he won't have to protect himself from the flaw in Callandor.

sleepinghour
11-23-2010, 06:00 PM
I've never been more sure about anything in the series than I am about One Power strength being completely irrelevant when facing the Dark One. Especially the One Power strength of the two women involved if killing him involves Callandor.

I agree that the women's strength aren't important for what Rand's planning to do, but what about afterwards? Rand knows he's more than likely to die, which would turn Callandor into a useless crystal sword. If Rand dies, the women would have to be able to fight off any remaining Dreadlords/Shadowspawn on their own and Travel back. Moiraine would tire out much faster with her angreal, and she doesn't know how to Travel yet.

I'm not saying Moiraine couldn't or shouldn't be the second woman, but a stronger channeler like Alivia would probably be a better choice. Another option is Egwene because of her skill at creating cuendillar. Otherwise I like the idea of Moiraine following Rand from his birth to his death, and Moiraine and Nynaeve working together.

metaphor
11-23-2010, 06:48 PM
I agree that the women's strength aren't important for what Rand's planning to do, but what about afterwards? Rand knows he's more than likely to die, which would turn Callandor into a useless crystal sword. If Rand dies, the women would have to be able to fight off any remaining Dreadlords/Shadowspawn on their own and Travel back. Moiraine would tire out much faster with her angreal, and she doesn't know how to Travel yet.

I'm not saying Moiraine couldn't or shouldn't be the second woman, but a stronger channeler like Alivia would probably be a better choice. Another option is Egwene because of her skill at creating cuendillar. Otherwise I like the idea of Moiraine following Rand from his birth to his death, and Moiraine and Nynaeve working together.



It's not just that. A channeler too weak can't use a Sa'angreal. Not powerful ones anyway.

It was certainly said about the Choedan Kal, but I think Moiraine said something along those lines in one of the first three boks.

jana
11-23-2010, 07:13 PM
It's not just that. A channeler too weak can't use a Sa'angreal. Not powerful ones anyway.

It was certainly said about the Choedan Kal, but I think Moiraine said something along those lines in one of the first three boks.

I think that's only for the CK. It's also possible RJ changed his mind, because both of these examples are from later on in the series.

1. Siuan used "a very strong sa'angreal." She's not much more powerful than Moiraine right now, and Moiraine's sa'angreal is weak. (it's a very strong angreal, so it's a weak sa'angreal).

2. Better example - When Jahar, Merise, and Elza used Callandor at the cleansing, Elza controlled the link. She's not strong enough to Travel. Here's a cropped One Power chart from 13depository:


Level 12
Moiraine (old), Siuan (old)

MINIMUM LEVEL TO USE CHOEDAN KAL

Level 11
Merise

MINIMUM LEVEL TO TRAVEL

Level 7
Elza

Level 5
Siuan (new)


and she doesn't know how to Travel yet.

This is certainly unimportant. I think she'll figure it out by the time they get there.

sleepinghour
11-23-2010, 07:14 PM
It's not just that. A channeler too weak can't use a Sa'angreal. Not powerful ones anyway.

It was certainly said about the Choedan Kal, but I think Moiraine said something along those lines in one of the first three boks.

I think the Choedan Kal were unique in that aspect because of how strong they were. Siuan was able to use the Tower's strongest sa'angreal to open a gateway when they rescued Egwene in TGS.

However, channelers tire out much faster using angreal/sa'angreal. Nynaeve and Aviendha were barely able to stand after using angreal to activate the Bowl in Ebou Dar. Rand and Nynaeve both passed out after using the Choedan Kal for a few hours despite getting extra strength from Cadsuane/the Warder bond.

jana
11-23-2010, 07:17 PM
channelers tire out much faster using angreal/sa'angreal. Nynaeve and Aviendha were barely able to stand after using angreal to activate the Bowl in Ebou Dar. Rand and Nynaeve both passed out after using the Choedan Kal for a few hours despite getting extra strength from Cadsuane/the Warder bond.

I'm not sure I'm getting your point. Do we have any indication that they get tired faster if they're weaker channelers?

sleepinghour
11-23-2010, 07:27 PM
I'm not sure I'm getting your point. Do we have any indication that they get tired faster if they're weaker channelers?

No. The point is that Moiraine would need to use her angreal the whole time, and would tire out much faster for that reason. Alivia on the other hand wouldn't need an angreal to fight Forsaken/Shadowspawn or Travel.

jana
11-23-2010, 07:31 PM
No. The point is that Moiraine would need to use her angreal the whole time, and would tire out much faster for that reason. Alivia on the other hand wouldn't need an angreal to fight Forsaken/Shadowspawn or Travel.

I don't think that's much of a concern unless there's a red jacket along. Only the Dark One will be on Rand's mind, not bringing channelers strong enough to take out 200,000 Shadowspawn instead of 100,000 Shadowspawn. The number will be based on how many Nynaeve and <blank> can take out without dying. So if it's Moiraine there will be less :P

Kimon
11-23-2010, 07:58 PM
Isn't this overlooking something rather obvious? If the Callandor posse takes on the DO and defeats him, fine. Also fine if Moiraine is part of that circle. But doesn't prophecy necessitate that the Dragon be the one that faces and defeats the DO? Can he really be said to have done this if he is just a passive member of the posse that is taking part in the showdown? If this turns out to be the way that the battle actually occurs, should not the prophecies have spoken about Moiraine as the destined one?

Cadsuane's assumptions on Callandor must be either erroneous or disastrous. If the showdown does occur with a circle of three using Callandor against the DO, Rand has to lead the circle, does he not? Wouldn't anything else at best cheapen, or, at worst, avert, his messianic role? This is obviously not as obviously problematic as Elaida's (or Egwene's) hubristic delusions of grandeur, but how would this really be any different? If Moiraine leads the circle, then she is the one who has defeated the DO, not Rand. Why would this not then perhaps require a final refrain of "I have won again Lews Therin"...

jana
11-23-2010, 08:11 PM
Isn't this overlooking something rather obvious? If the Callandor posse takes on the DO and defeats him, fine. Also fine if Moiraine is part of that circle. But doesn't prophecy necessitate that the Dragon be the one that faces and defeats the DO? Can he really be said to have done this if he is just a passive member of the posse that is taking part in the showdown? If this turns out to be the way that the battle actually occurs, should not the prophecies have spoken about Moiraine as the destined one?

Cadsuane's assumptions on Callandor must be either erroneous or disastrous. If the showdown does occur with a circle of three using Callandor against the DO, Rand has to lead the circle, does he not? Wouldn't anything else at best cheapen, or, at worst, avert, his messianic role? This is obviously not as obviously problematic as Elaida's (or Egwene's) hubristic delusions of grandeur, but how would this really be any different? If Moiraine leads the circle, then she is the one who has defeated the DO, not Rand. Why would this not then perhaps require a final refrain of "I have won again Lews Therin"...

It's not overlooking that. The faction says "during the Last Battle." Not "Rand, Nynaeve and Moiraine defeat or seal away the Dark One using Callandor with Moiraine in the lead." Callandor is important. That doesn't necessarily mean the woman who leads the circle goes in and defeats the Dark One. That's obviously not what will occur. Perhaps Callandor enables them to get to the Dark One so Rand can do whatever he needs to do. Or it lets Rand "touch" him or the prison somehow, and then he does that on his own. *shrug*

Jonai
11-23-2010, 08:17 PM
I don't think that's much of a concern unless there's a red jacket along. Only the Dark One will be on Rand's mind, not bringing channelers strong enough to take out 200,000 Shadowspawn instead of 100,000 Shadowspawn. The number will be based on how many Nynaeve and <blank> can take out without dying. So if it's Moiraine there will be less :P

I rather think that Perrin, as the standard bearer, and Mat as the hornsounder, along with the HotH, can take care of any Shadowspawn infestation. LTT and the Companions had over 10,000 armsmen defend the Pit of Doom while they fought, so why not Mo'Therin?

jana
11-23-2010, 08:19 PM
I rather think that Perrin, as the standard bearer, and Mat as the hornsounder, along with the HotH, can take care of any Shadowspawn infestation. LTT and the Companions had over 10,000 armsmen defend the Pit of Doom while they fought, so why not Mo'Therin?

:D that sounds like the number Lan has.

Jonai
11-23-2010, 08:23 PM
He has 12,000 facing 150,000 in the gap. I hope someone helps him. Rand could defeat that army by himself, assuming it has no channelers.

ShadowbaneX
11-23-2010, 08:55 PM
I rather think that Perrin, as the standard bearer, and Mat as the hornsounder, along with the HotH, can take care of any Shadowspawn infestation. LTT and the Companions had over 10,000 armsmen defend the Pit of Doom while they fought, so why not Mo'Therin?

Not necessarily. We saw that the actions of Heroes of the Horn were tied to Rand's fight against Ishmael. When Rand had the upper hand the Heroes and the Children beat back the Seanchan. When Ishy got the upper hand, the Heroes were forced back.

As for the armsmen needed to defend Rand, I've got half a mind to agree with Tuon on this, and think that it will be the Seanchan that aid Rand in hitting Shayol Ghul and the Pit of Doom.

Because he's convinced that the Flaw is a problem that they must resolve, and not an opportunity that he must use.

Who's to say that the flaw in Callandor isn't what the final confrontation is about. Min says that Rand might be attacked when he uses it, well perhaps that's where the final struggle is. The DO or the Shadow will make that attack as he's using it. If he fails, everything fails. If he succeeds in withstanding that attack, they win.

Cadsuane's assumptions on Callandor must be either erroneous or disastrous. If the showdown does occur with a circle of three using Callandor against the DO, Rand has to lead the circle, does he not? Wouldn't anything else at best cheapen, or, at worst, avert, his messianic role?

Says who? As we saw with the Chapter Storm of Light, or specifically the after stuff. As Rand said, his role is not to fight the Shadow, but to rally everyone else for them to fight it. In this particular case, let's say that Moiraine is melding the flows as they try to Seal the Bore. If Rand dies, Moiraine losses the strength for Callandor and then everyone is boned. If Rand survives, Moiraine is allowed to complete her task and the DO will be Sealed away. Rand will still be essential to the task though.

yks 6nnetu hing
11-24-2010, 01:51 AM
No. The point is that Moiraine would need to use her angreal the whole time, and would tire out much faster for that reason. Alivia on the other hand wouldn't need an angreal to fight Forsaken/Shadowspawn or Travel.

huh? From what I've understood, using an angreal is not like using a well - a well is finite, both time-wise and total Power availability-wise, an angreal simply enhances the amount of Power one can draw, it is infinite time-wise. An Angreal has a top cap on the relative amount of Power one can draw in one flow (depending on their initial strength) but not cap on the total duration (and therefore the total amount) that a person can draw. What normally tires people out is handling so much more Power than they're used to. But you're perhaps forgetting that Moiraine is very skilled in handling large amounts of the One Power.

She might not know all the new weaves but she's certainly one up on both Nynaeve and Alivia on experience.

jana
11-24-2010, 02:00 AM
one up on both Nynaeve and Alivia on experience.

nitpick: sleeping's talking about fighting shadowspawn after they confront the DO, so Alivia has more experience. She's like 500 years old.

yks 6nnetu hing
11-24-2010, 02:04 AM
nitpick: sleeping's talking about fighting shadowspawn after they confront the DO, so Alivia has more experience. She's like 500 years old.

which sort of proves your earlier point: I (and most non-HCFF's) know diddly squat about Alivia and mix her up with Nicola on a daily basis. This should get easier now that Nicola's dead though (she is dead, right, I think she died in the last book?)

jana
11-24-2010, 02:07 AM
This should get easier now that Nicola's dead though (she is dead, right, I think she died in the last book?)
Yep

yks 6nnetu hing
11-24-2010, 02:20 AM
well, they were both equally annoying in the sense that I didn't understand why it was necessary to introduce yet more and more and more super-channelers. As if the amount of Power one can channel is everything:rolleyes:

(my point very well illustrated by that guy in Working Leather)

morat'corlm
11-24-2010, 02:57 AM
Sheer power is really nothing next to luck.

GonzoTheGreat
11-24-2010, 04:24 AM
(she is dead, right, I think she died in the last book?)Hopefully she won't come back. She was mostly annoying, and not even as interestingly so as Egwene is.

Sheer power is really nothing next to luck.For a moment, I read that as "sheep power". :p

sleepinghour
11-24-2010, 06:29 AM
What normally tires people out is handling so much more Power than they're used to. But you're perhaps forgetting that Moiraine is very skilled in handling large amounts of the One Power.


Yes, that's what I was referring to: the physical exhaustion. Skill or practice has nothing to do with that. Everybody has a natural limit to what they can handle, and even pre-ToG Moiraine was far from Forsaken strength.

One point in Moiraine's favor is that we don't know how many people Rand intends to bring to Shayol Ghul. It could be 100+ channelers, like LTT. It's possible that Alivia will come with and fight at Rand's side, but Moiraine and Nynaeve will be the ones that link with Rand.