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padfoot89
11-23-2010, 04:36 AM
Doesn't it seem (in retrospect) pretty easy to get rid of a gholam ? If you can channel, just jump into the skimming place and engage it for a few minutes till it drops dead.

The gholams were supposed to be so dangerous that only six were created.

I was slightly disappointed to hear that the gholam died a few minutes after falling. I wanted him to fall for a while and die of starvation atleast.

Mat's idea of stuffing medallions down its throat sounds a more satisfying way to kill it.

GonzoTheGreat
11-23-2010, 06:07 AM
Perhaps, if someone else but a strong ta'veren had tried, the gholam would have spotted the trap, and kicked the channeler off the platform while leaping to safety in the real world himself.

padfoot89
11-23-2010, 06:22 AM
But a channeler can always make a platform under him.

I was thinking of another way. Can the gholam survive in the Dream World ? If not, just enter TAR in the flesh, you have a much better chance of surviving the gholam there.

GonzoTheGreat
11-23-2010, 06:26 AM
The channeler might not be able to find the original opening again, though. And if you just open another door, then the results are somewhat uncertain. It frightened Moghedien, when she was asked what would happen.

Edited to add:
I'm not sure I would advice trying the TAR option. If the answer is "yes, a gholam can survive there", then that would make going to sleep ever again a rather frightening prospect.

jana
11-23-2010, 06:52 AM
I'm not sure I would advice trying the TAR option.

The way you worded that has me laughing. Like you're actually giving people tips on how to kill gholam.

gholam
11-23-2010, 07:27 AM
The idea per se is not dull. The way it was described in TOM is bit of a let down. I don't know why, but I felt cheated. I never thought that getting rid of ME :D is that easy. Of course that's because the Gholam is killed by awesome Mat

David Selig
11-23-2010, 07:40 AM
It's not easy at all. To get the gholam to enter the Skimming platform, you need a combo of the only thing that can hurt him - the foxhead medallions, Mat's incredible quickness and fighting skills to be able to hit him at all, and an awful lot of luck. With anyone else the gholam wouldn't have entered the Skimming area at all since nobody else can push him so hard.

GonzoTheGreat
11-23-2010, 07:49 AM
Loial might have been able to do that.
A fight between a gholam and an angry Ogier would be interesting, I think. We probably won't get to see one, though.

gholam
11-23-2010, 08:19 AM
I doubt Loial can kill a Gholam. To kill a Gholam requires speed, which I very much doubt an ogier has. My be they can outrun horses in the long run, but not at a gallop. They have more staying power but lack speed.

gholam
11-23-2010, 08:22 AM
It's not easy at all. To get the gholam to enter the Skimming platform, you need a combo of the only thing that can hurt him - the foxhead medallions, Mat's incredible quickness and fighting skills to be able to hit him at all, and an awful lot of luck. With anyone else the gholam wouldn't have entered the Skimming area at all since nobody else can push him so hard.

I know it's not easy. what I said was the scene in TOM makes it look like an everyday affair. Somehow BS missed the essence of awesomeness required for 'One of the most awaited scenes'.

Mat
11-23-2010, 08:38 AM
I know it's not easy. what I said was the scene in TOM makes it look like an everyday affair. Somehow BS missed the essence of awesomeness required for 'One of the most awaited scenes'.

Well at least my battle screams were pretty awesome :cool:

jana
11-23-2010, 08:52 AM
call me less than indifferent. I would have preferred it if the gholam fell off a cliff and died and we got another tavern scene with Mat. Or better yet, an extra Moiraine scene.

subwoofer
11-23-2010, 10:00 AM
call me less than indifferent. I would have preferred it if the gholam fell off a cliff and died and we got another tavern scene with Mat. Or better yet, an extra Moiraine scene.

This reminds me of an old discussion I saw a while ago on how to kill a werewolf (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_h0OoGTZCg&feature=related).

padfoot89
11-23-2010, 01:05 PM
It's not easy at all. To get the gholam to enter the Skimming platform, you need a combo of the only thing that can hurt him - the foxhead medallions, Mat's incredible quickness and fighting skills to be able to hit him at all, and an awful lot of luck. With anyone else the gholam wouldn't have entered the Skimming area at all since nobody else can push him so hard.

I meant from a channelers perspective since they are the main targets for the gholam. If the gholam is after you, you jump to the skimming space, he has to follow you if he wants to kill you.

Hugh the Hand
11-23-2010, 01:50 PM
If this has been address let me know and please show me where.

But, if Shadowspawn cannot uses Gateways, Skimming or otherwise, how was the Gholam able to survive long enough to even get onto the platform.

Further, if it is deadly for Shadowspawn to use Gateways, then you would think the Gholam would notice the trap, as indicated in the book, and avoid going into the "room" at all costs.

Even if the deathly effects is existing the other side the Gholam would have avoided the Gateway.

Is this a hole in the plot or was a gholam special for some reason?

Or is the simplest answer that I am missing something?

Jonai
11-23-2010, 01:52 PM
If this has been address let me know and please show me where.

But, if Shadowspawn cannot uses Gateways, Skimming or otherwise, how was the Gholam able to survive long enough to even get onto the platform.

Further, if it is deadly for Shadowspawn to use Gateways, then you would think the Gholam would notice the trap, as indicated in the book, and avoid going into the "room" at all costs.

Even if the deathly effects is existing the other side the Gholam would have avoided the Gateway.

Is this a hole in the plot or was a gholam special for some reason?

Or is the simplest answer that I am missing something?

Well technically, its not that Shadowspawn can't use gateways, but artificial constructs can't, and Shadowspawn are constructs. For some reason a gholam can pass through the gateway though. I'm not sure why or how, but it doesn't kill them.

WinespringBrother
11-23-2010, 01:53 PM
If this has been address let me know and please show me where.

But, if Shadowspawn cannot uses Gateways, Skimming or otherwise, how was the Gholam able to survive long enough to even get onto the platform.

Further, if it is deadly for Shadowspawn to use Gateways, then you would think the Gholam would notice the trap, as indicated in the book, and avoid going into the "room" at all costs.

Even if the deathly effects is existing the other side the Gholam would have avoided the Gateway.

Is this a hole in the plot or was a gholam special for some reason?

Or is the simplest answer that I am missing something?

Brandon was quoted from the recent Q&A he did in France that the Gholam is a perfected (or near perfected) Shadowspawn that can survive going through gateways.

Hugh the Hand
11-23-2010, 02:04 PM
Brandon was quoted from the recent Q&A he did in France that the Gholam is a perfected (or near perfected) Shadowspawn that can survive going through gateways.

Deus Ex Machina anyone?

Do not get me wrong anyone, I liked how the Gholam was killed. And I think the surface of the usefulness of gateways has not even been scratch, we all used to find useful things for them in the old TT game.

But, a "perfected" construct or Shadowspawn? Really? And never mentioned or hinted at before? I mean could you have at least had Agnior or another Forseaken say or think..."Man we did good when we made those things, they could even travel through gateways!"

Just a thought.

Terez
11-23-2010, 02:08 PM
Deus Ex Machina anyone?
Not really; perhaps just bad wording. We have known they were special since ACOS, and we've had reason to believe since then that they could pass through gateways. But they were hardly perfect; we have seen that clearly enough in other ways.

Hugh the Hand
11-23-2010, 02:28 PM
Not really; perhaps just bad wording. We have known they were special since ACOS, and we've had reason to believe since then that they could pass through gateways. But they were hardly perfect; we have seen that clearly enough in other ways.

I agree we have known they are special. And i agree we have known they are more advanced then other Shadowspawn we have seen.

However, I do not recall seeing anywhere where we given a hint or believe that they could travel through gateways. It could have been subtle, and I might have missed it. I do not need quotes, but do you recall what gave you that belief?


Feel free to ignore the following, just some ramblings:

All this is Academic, of course, since as i said I liked the scene, but I am worried that this is going to turn into an episode of Dragon Ball or a comic book or something else, when the characters just become more superpowered and the bad guys grow to match, or vise versa, are we going to see advanced Trollocs next, ones that can go through gateways? Heck the Red Veiled Aiel could be some type of Shadowspawn crossbred with humans to make a warrior class that can go through Gateways.

I guess just the idea of Gholams being special has thrown me off.

Neilbert
11-23-2010, 02:40 PM
However, I do not recall seeing anywhere where we given a hint or believe that they could travel through gateways.

The introduction of deathgates for starters. If gateways killed Gholam, then deathgates would have been a simple enough counter. Any channeler strong enough, or linked to a circle strong enough to make a gateway large enough to swallow the guy would have killed it. They wouldn't be a threat at all if that were the case.

Hugh the Hand
11-23-2010, 02:47 PM
That is a thought.

However, Deathgates seem more useful against large groups rather then against a single foe.

A nimble fast moving foes might be able to weasel its way out the way of a moving deathgate. Plus an assassin does not attack on the battlefield very often. He would attack in a city, enclosed camp, fortress, palace, etc. These might be areas were using a deathgate would be dangerous or ill advised.

I must admit deathgates is better then nothing and more proof than I had a few minutes ago.

Grig
11-23-2010, 03:06 PM
A nimble fast moving foes might be able to weasel its way out the way of a moving deathgate. Plus an assassin does not attack on the battlefield very often. He would attack in a city, enclosed camp, fortress, palace, etc.

The Forsaken are scared of gholam, thinking Aginor was mad for making them. This would not be the case if all you need to defeat one is to be unafraid to kill a few people with gateways.

Flinn Sedai
11-23-2010, 03:15 PM
The way you worded that has me laughing. Like you're actually giving people tips on how to kill gholam.

*votes this comment as best in the thread*

Flinn Sedai
11-23-2010, 03:18 PM
The Forsaken are scared of gholam, thinking Aginor was mad for making them. This would not be the case if all you need to defeat one is to be unafraid to kill a few people with gateways.

Incorrect.

Week 6 Question: How were the gholams made? Were they created or bred like the Trollocs? How exactly are they controlled if they are immune to the One Power?

Robert Jordan Answers: The gholam---singular and plural are the same---were created, not bred. Supposedly their creation involved making them so that they would be obedient to the Chosen, whoever they might be at any given time. This was an attempt at copying something that had turned up in Myrddraal, which seem incapable of disobeying one of the Chosen, possibly because of the use of the True Power in creation of the Trollocs, the parent stock of the Myrddraal. Even Aginor, who created the Trollocs, and thus indirectly the Myrddraal, was uncertain about the actual cause. (Becoming one of the Forsaken involves receiving a mark from the Dark One in return for your oaths; this mark is invisible and cannot be sensed by another human being, even another of the Forsaken, but it can be [seen] by certain non-human creatures, including Myrddraal and draghkar among others. This may play a part in the Myrddraal's obedience but doesn't explain it completely.) This element in gholam has some flaws, however, as we have seen in a small measure. In any case, if I were you, I wouldn't try giving orders to a gholam unless I were one of the Forsaken.

Grig
11-23-2010, 03:33 PM
Incorrect.

"She [Graendal] had had an unpleasant, in fact almost fatal, experience with one of Aginor's creations. The man had been brilliant in his way, but mad. None but a madman would have made the gholam."

LOC, To Understand a Message

Flinn Sedai
11-23-2010, 03:43 PM
"She [Graendal] had had an unpleasant, in fact almost fatal, experience with one of Aginor's creations. The man had been brilliant in his way, but mad. None but a madman would have made the gholam."

LOC, To Understand a Message

Ummm.... you're disputing RJ with a quote from Graendal?

amazinglarry
11-23-2010, 03:43 PM
Is there any reason you couldn't use a deathgate opened to the skimming space to snatch up a gholam? We saw in ToM that the gholam did not dissolve the gateway when it passed through. So as long as a wide enough gateway was used (so the gholam doesn't hit an edge and interfere with the weave) you'd think any channeler could just chase it and scoop up w/ the deathgate...

amazinglarry

tiredofbuttons
11-23-2010, 04:06 PM
Is there any reason you couldn't use a deathgate opened to the skimming space to snatch up a gholam? We saw in ToM that the gholam did not dissolve the gateway when it passed through. So as long as a wide enough gateway was used (so the gholam doesn't hit an edge and interfere with the weave) you'd think any channeler could just chase it and scoop up w/ the deathgate...

amazinglarry

I thought deathgates went to a random place each time they "revolved" or opened? I don't recall anyone ever controlling where the other end opens.

Grig
11-23-2010, 04:35 PM
Ummm.... you're disputing RJ with a quote from Graendal?

No, I'm disputing you. Let's review:

Me:
The Forsaken are scared of gholam, thinking Aginor was mad for making them.

You:
Incorrect.

Me:
(Graendal POV)
None but a madman would have made the gholam.

Clear enough? Jesus, it's not exactly rocket science. The FS could command the gholam as per Jordan (and honestly, I had no idea anyone could think this was even under dispute, since we've seen exactly one gholam and he's always been following orders from a Forsaken), but that doesn't mean they weren't scared of them (which was my original assertion). And they wouldn't be scared of them if they had such an easy weakness as "vulnerable to deathgates".

padfoot89
11-23-2010, 05:08 PM
Maybe the Forsaken were creeped out by the fact that there was a creature that was immune to the Power.
Still, I wonder why only six were made if Forsaken could command them. Unless it took a lot of resources to make one of them.

GonzoTheGreat
11-23-2010, 05:34 PM
As Callandor shows, if you start mass producing, then now and then a production fault crops up. Having an uncontrollable gholam wandering around your research center may not be what you want. Even some mad scientists might decide not to take that risk.

Belazamon
11-23-2010, 06:00 PM
Clear enough? Jesus, it's not exactly rocket science. The FS could command the gholam as per Jordan (and honestly, I had no idea anyone could think this was even under dispute, since we've seen exactly one gholam and he's always been following orders from a Forsaken), but that doesn't mean they weren't scared of them (which was my original assertion).
For the record, thinking Aginor was mad for creating the gholam does not necessarily mean that Graendal is afraid of the gholam. You're inferring this, but it is not stated outright, and therefore is up for debate.

Don't mind me, I nitpick. I'm a nitpicker.

metaphor
11-23-2010, 06:03 PM
The Gholam IS deadly.
It can sneak up behind you by passing below your closed door. It can come upon you unexpectedly, and when you realize it's a gholam it's already too late.

If you know it's coming for you, and have time to see it and pan something then it's probably not that difficult for a strong channeler to take out.
But he won't attack openly. That is what makes them so dangerous.

Terez
11-23-2010, 06:16 PM
I agree we have known they are special. And i agree we have known they are more advanced then other Shadowspawn we have seen.

However, I do not recall seeing anywhere where we given a hint or believe that they could travel through gateways. It could have been subtle, and I might have missed it. I do not need quotes, but do you recall what gave you that belief?
The fact that, according to Steven Cooper's best estimation, the gholam made it from Cairhien to Ebou Dar in a day or two, for starters.

"She [Graendal] had had an unpleasant, in fact almost fatal, experience with one of Aginor's creations. The man had been brilliant in his way, but mad. None but a madman would have made the gholam."

LOC, To Understand a Message
Also:

TITLE - A Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 38 - Promises to Keep

Mat gathered patience; he hoped he could find enough. Maybe if he used both hands and both feet. "Gholam were created in the middle of the War of the Power, during the Age of Legends," he began from the beginning. Almost from the beginning of what Birgitte had told him. He turned, facing each group of women as he spoke. Burn him if he was going to let one bunch think they were more important. Or that he was bloody pleading with them. Especially since he was. "They were made to assassinate Aes Sedai. No other reason. To kill people who could channel. The One Power won’t help you; the Power won’t touch a gholam. In fact, they can sense the ability to channel, if they’re within, say, fifty paces of you. They can feel the power in you, too. You won’t know the gholam until it’s too late. They look just like anybody else. On the outside. Inside... Gholam have no bones; they can squeeze themselves under a door. And they’re strong enough to rip a door off steel hinges with one hand." Or rip out a throat. Light, he should have let Nalesean stay in bed.

Suppressing a shiver, he pressed on. The women, all of them, watched him, almost not appearing to blink. He would not let them see him shiver. "There were only six gholam made - three male and three female; at least, that’s what they look like. Apparently even the Forsaken were a little uneasy about them. Or maybe they just decided six was enough. Either way, we know one is in Ebou Dar, probably kept alive since the Breaking in a stasis-box. We don’t know if any others were put into that box, but one is more than enough. Whoever sent him - and it had to be one of the Forsaken - knew to follow us across the river. He had to have been sent after the Bowl of the Winds, and by what he said to me, to kill Nynaeve or Elayne, maybe both."

Ummm.... you're disputing RJ with a quote from Graendal?
There's nothing in that to dispute RJ. The Forsaken can command them, but apparently not as absolutely as with Shadowspawn; the implication is that the Forsaken could use them against one another.

Grig
11-23-2010, 06:18 PM
Don't mind me, I nitpick. I'm a nitpicker.

I have no problem with that nitpick. It's valid. I'll gladly admit that that part was an inference that I made. However, he did not say "Incorrect, they are not afraid. You are inferring that." He said incorrect, then went off completely tangentially to what I said (that is, simply pointing out that the Forsaken can command the gholam. No duh). He implied that my post was completely incorrect, which when I demonstrated was untrue with direct support from the text all I got was "Ummm.... you're disputing RJ with a quote from Graendal? ". If he was making a nuanced point I'd be willing to address it in a nuanced manner, but as far as I'm concerned all he deserves is contempt for the fumbling attempt at refuting my post that he made.

Edit:

Thanks, Terez, for the additional citation. I thought there was more than I turned up, but some quick google books/idealseek searching didn't turn it up.

Neilbert
11-23-2010, 09:13 PM
There's nothing in that to dispute RJ. The Forsaken can command them, but apparently not as absolutely as with Shadowspawn; the implication is that the Forsaken could use them against one another.

This is how I read it too. A Chosen can command a Gholam, but this doesn't do them any good if the Gholam is killing them before they know they should be commanding it. A Fade on the other hand might not obey, or seize up if commanded to kill a Chosen.

Res_Ipsa
11-23-2010, 10:08 PM
Well in the books in the Gholam PoV its mind held the concept of freedom.

Also the reason Gholam's are so deadly is because they are not something you should see more than once. Matt's Fox Head Medallion is an oddity and forced the creatures hand repeatedly. The only reason they all survived is because of that.

They are assassins not front line troops. While the Gholam can muscle its way through anything imagine seeing an ordinary looking man or woman walking towards you are just appearing in your way and if you sense its intent you channel and it does nothing. You are startled or you remain calm but even then the Gholam is extremely fast and more often then not will get its target.

The only issue I see with the Gholam is that the order to remain concealed allowed the story to progress. So it was a necessary literary device to flesh out the story otherwise the Gholam would have simply tore a bloody gap through anything and everything.

Belazamon
11-23-2010, 10:20 PM
I have no problem with that nitpick. It's valid. I'll gladly admit that that part was an inference that I made. However, he did not say "Incorrect, they are not afraid. You are inferring that." He said incorrect, then went off completely tangentially to what I said
No worries, I wasn't taking sides, just making sure all the proper information was available and correctly interpreted. I'm an equal-opportunity nitpicker. :D

Flinn Sedai
11-23-2010, 10:21 PM
I have no problem with that nitpick. It's valid. I'll gladly admit that that part was an inference that I made. However, he did not say "Incorrect, they are not afraid. You are inferring that." He said incorrect, then went off completely tangentially to what I said (that is, simply pointing out that the Forsaken can command the gholam. No duh). He implied that my post was completely incorrect, which when I demonstrated was untrue with direct support from the text all I got was "Ummm.... you're disputing RJ with a quote from Graendal? ". If he was making a nuanced point I'd be willing to address it in a nuanced manner, but as far as I'm concerned all he deserves is contempt for the fumbling attempt at refuting my post that he made.

Edit:

Thanks, Terez, for the additional citation. I thought there was more than I turned up, but some quick google books/idealseek searching didn't turn it up.

I assumed that you were able to figure out which point was being disputed by the fact that only one part was disputed by the quote.

Yes, if I don't argue with a point, I'm not disagreeing with it. Pretty shocking of you to figure that out. Surprised you got so worked up about it, though.

I don't care what Graendal's opinion is of Aginor. Or was of Aginor. Saying that the Forsaken are afraid of them was simply not true. Hence why I quoted Jordan saying that they were able to command the gholam.

The thought was that at worst, they might have made the Chosen uneasy as well. That's certainly not afraid, purely speculation, and not even the only speculation made from that individual on the issue.

So, to be more clear, since you didn't understand the first time.

Incorrect, the gholam does not frighten the Chosen.

Apparently I need to spell it out for you.

Belazamon
11-23-2010, 10:26 PM
Incorrect, the gholam does not frighten the Chosen.

Apparently I need to spell it out for you.
Out of curiosity, do you have any direct quotes of any of the Chosen stating this? Seems like more inference to me.

Res_Ipsa
11-23-2010, 10:27 PM
I assumed that you were able to figure out which point was being disputed by the fact that only one part was disputed by the quote.

Yes, if I don't argue with a point, I'm not disagreeing with it. Pretty shocking of you to figure that out. Surprised you got so worked up about it, though.

I don't care what Graendal's opinion is of Aginor. Or was of Aginor. Saying that the Forsaken are afraid of them was simply not true. Hence why I quoted Jordan saying that they were able to command the gholam.

The thought was that at worst, they might have made the Chosen uneasy as well. That's certainly not afraid, purely speculation, and not even the only speculation made from that individual on the issue.

So, to be more clear, since you didn't understand the first time.

Incorrect, the gholam does not frighten the Chosen.

Apparently I need to spell it out for you.

Differences of opinion rarely merit such harsh critique. You are splitting hairs over the difference that a mouse could starve on. There is cases to be made for both ideas of whether they were frightened or merely disconcerted over a weapon aimed at channelers that one forsaken could have used against another. Remember there were more then the current Ages forsaken started out with, we dont know but you could postulate that they had been used against other forsaken in the AoL.

Flinn Sedai
11-23-2010, 11:13 PM
Out of curiosity, do you have any direct quotes of any of the Chosen stating this? Seems like more inference to me.

None stating whether they feared or lacked fear of the gholam. However, given that the gholam is freely commanded by the Chosen, has had the Myddraal's inability to disobey the Chosen's commands ingrained in its being, and RJ strongly implies that being Chosen gives you essential protections from the gholam, it is the conclusion to draw.

I do, however, have some quotes about things that they do fear, and they're typical response.

Death

“That is,” Moghedien murmured, “if he lives long enough to find them.” Nynaeve took hold of the silvery leash where it joined the collar and pulled the Forsaken’s face close to hers. Dark eyes met her gaze flatly, but she could feel anger through the a‘dam, and fear wriggling up and being stamped down. “You listen to me. Do you think I don’t know why you are pretending to be so cooperative? You think if you keep talking long enough, I will make some slip, and you can escape. You think the longer we talk, the harder I’ll find it to kill you.” That much was true enough. To kill somebody in cold blood, even one of the Forsaken, would be hard, maybe harder than she could manage. What was she going to do with the woman? “But you understand this. I won’t allow hinting at things. If you try keeping anything back from me, I will do to you everything you ever thought of doing to me.” Dread, creeping through the leash, like bone-chilling shrieks deep in Moghedien’s mind. Maybe she did not know as much about a‘dam as Nynaeve thought. Maybe she believed Nynaeve could read her thoughts if she tried. “Now if you know of some threat to Rand, something ahead of Sammael and the others, you tell me. Now!”


The Illianer's mouth worked, struggled. What came out bore no relation to the voice he had used before. It was deeper, full of confidence, in a different accent. "We will stand on different sides, you and I, come the day of the Great Lord's Return, but why should we kill each other now and leave Demandred and Graendal to contest for the world over our bones?" Rand knew that voice, in one of those scraps from Lews Therm that had settled in his mind. Sammael's voice. Lews Therin snarled wordlessly. "Already you have much to digest," the Illianer went on—or Sammael did. "Why bite off more? And hard chewing, even if you don't find Semirhage or Asmodean taking you from behind while you are busy with it. I propose a truce between us, a truce until the Day of Return. If you do not move against me, I will not against you. I will pledge not to move east beyond the Plains of Maredo, nor further north than Lugard in the east or Jehannah in the west. You see, I leave the greater share by far to you. I do not claim to speak for the rest of the Chosen, but at least you know you have nothing to fear from me, or out of the lands I hold. I will pledge not to aid them in anything they do against you, nor to help them defend against you. You have done well so far in removing the Chosen from the field. I have no doubt you will continue to do well, better than before, knowing your southern flank is safe and the others fight without my aid. I suspect that on the Day of Return, there will be only you and I, as it should be. As it was meant to be." The man's teeth clicked shut, hidden behind that frozen grin. His eyes looked near madness.

When faced with potential death, they are afraid. They deal with it by hedging. They give a little, in hopes of not being killed. If that doesn't work, they look for opportunities to kill them.

They command when they are not afraid. Given that they are commanding the gholam, and must know how to kill him (since it wasn't all that complex), they have not done either, it's safe to say they aren't afraid.


As for being overly harsh, perhaps I was. However, that was exclusively to the overreaction on his part. That does not excuse me, however, and I apologize.

Terez
11-23-2010, 11:21 PM
None stating whether they feared or lacked fear of the gholam. However, given that the gholam is freely commanded by the Chosen
This is far from clear. RJ implies that the aspect of command is not so clear-cut as it is with other Shadowspawn, because they were only able to imperfectly duplicate the compulsion to obey that other Shadowspawn are born with. I think you missed the point that RJ was getting at entirely.

Squocka
11-23-2010, 11:44 PM
I agree with Terez above

RJ says that the control is not clear-cut.
In other words not absolute or theres something wrong with it.

As for padfoot the original poster

If you just opened a skimming platform got in the gholam would have to follow which i dont think it would as if it killed you inside there the gateway would dissappear, otherwise if it did you would have to make a platform big enough to accomodate you far enough away from the gholam for you to then shrink the platform to only your size before the gholam gets to you.

I dont think this would be easy, and remember that they wern't even sure if it would work when they did it.

padfoot89
11-24-2010, 06:44 AM
As for padfoot the original poster

If you just opened a skimming platform got in the gholam would have to follow which i dont think it would as if it killed you inside there the gateway would dissappear, otherwise if it did you would have to make a platform big enough to accomodate you far enough away from the gholam for you to then shrink the platform to only your size before the gholam gets to you.

I dont think this would be easy, and remember that they wern't even sure if it would work when they did it.

If you were the one being hunted, its a win-win either way. If the gholam follows you, you have a chance to take it out. If not, you get away and are still alive.

You make a good point about the gateway vanishing if the channeler gets killed. If gholam knows that this can happen, it won't follow and you can escape easy.
Of course, if the gholam relied on surprise and stealth, you'd be dead before you realized it.
I imagine that the existence of the gholam was kept tightly under wraps.

amazinglarry
11-24-2010, 02:09 PM
I thought deathgates went to a random place each time they "revolved" or opened? I don't recall anyone ever controlling where the other end opens.

If you can make a mobile gateway to a random place, you should be able to make a mobile gateway to a fixed place, at least that's how it seems to me. Just make a moving gateway to the skimming space and swallow the gholam with it. Or even if that is impossible, a deathgate would be a good way to send it somewhere totally random just to get it off your trail. I can imagine it would take the gholam quite a while to find you again if you gated it out to the middle of the ocean, or to the land of madmen, or some other random far-off place...

amazinglarry

FelixPax
11-24-2010, 11:49 PM
Edited to add:
I'm not sure I would advice trying the TAR option. If the answer is "yes, a gholam can survive there", then that would make going to sleep ever again a rather frightening prospect.


Who should be worried about a Gholam popping up in the Flesh in 'A dream of a dream' (TFoH, Ch. 54 - Rand pov)?


Nynaeve
Elayne
Mat Cauthon
Fortuona (TofM, Ch.10)
Thom (TofM, Ch.10)
Aviendha (based on prior Ebou Dar command, by Sammael)
Kin Knitting Circle Elders who fled with Elayne from Ebou Dar (TPoD, Ch.1-3)
Sea Folk Windfinder's who fled with Elayne from Ebou Dar (TPoD, Ch.2)


"You should be proud," it whispered. "The one who now controls me wants you more than anyone else. I am to ignore all others until I have tasted your blood."

Towers of Midnight, Chapter 10 'Blood In The Air' - Mat Cauthon point of view

Assuming the Gholam did cut Mat Cauthon arm to draw blood or reaches ultimately his bloody spit (TofM, Ch. 31 "Into the Void" - Mat pov), the Gholam is going to be free to murder anyone on its list, in any order it wants too.
Every one of the individuals previously mentioned above in that list should be worried. Worried that a Gholam is going to pop into their presents in the 3rd Constant or Tel'aran'rhiod.


The Gholam is not dead, yet. :D









Skimming Platform preferences & various point of view about Skimming:


Egwene's point of view, about Skimming & its essence:

Skimming required a platform, and though it could be anything you chose to imagine, every sister seemed to have one she preferred. For her that was this wooden barge, with stout railings. If she fell off, she could make another barge beneath her, although where she came out then would be something of a question, but for anyone who could not channel, that fall would be as endless as the black that ran off in every direction. Only at the near end of the barge was there any light, the gateway giving a constricted view of the hollow. That light did not penetrate the darkness at all, yet there was light of a sort. At least, she could see quite clearly, as in Tel’aran’rhiod. Not for the first time she wondered whether this actually was some part of the World of Dreams.

A Crown of Swords -- Chapter 12 ‘A Morning of Victory’ – Egwene point of view


Sumeko's platform varies from Egwene & other Aes Sedai, according to Mat's point of view. Sumeko uses as a Skimming Platform a "bone white floor", "in the shape of a large book"':

The gholam backed into the darkened room, stepping onto a bone white floor, eyes flickering down.

Taking a deep breath, Mat leaped through the doorway with a final burst of strength and slammed the smoldering butt of his ashandarei into the side of the creature’s head. A spray of sparks and ash exploded around its face. The creature cursed and stumbled to the right.

And there, it nearly stepped off the edge of a platform hanging above an expansive void. The gholam hissed in anger, hanging with one leg over the void, flailing to keep its balance.

From this side, the doorway into the room was ringed by a glowing white light—the edges of a gateway made for Skimming. “I don’t know if you can die,” Mat said softly. “I hope to the Light that you can’t.” He raised a boot and slammed it into the thing’s back, throwing it off the platform into the darkness. It fell, twisting in the air, looking up at him with a horror.

“I hope you can’t die,” Mat said, “because I’m going to enjoy the thought of you falling through that blackness forever, you misbegotten son of a goat’s dropping.” Mat spit over the side, sending a bit of bloody spittle down, plummeting after the gholam. Both disappeared into the blackness below.

Sumeko walked up beside him. The stout Kinswoman had long dark hair and the air of a woman who did not like being ordered about. Nearly every woman had that same air. She’d been standing just inside the gateway, to the side where she would be unseen from the hallway. She had to be there to maintain the white platform, which was in the shape of a large book. She raised an eyebrow at him.

Towers of Midnight, Chapter 31 “Into The Void” - Mat Cauthon point of view

Will Mat Cauthon gain his unfortunate wish? ;)



Sumeko's opinion of where the Gholam is now:

"You sure that darkness goes on forever?" Mat asked. Julanya was a plump, pretty woman who would have fit nicely on Mat's knee. The white in her hair did not detract from her pettiness at all.

"Near as we can tell, it does," Sumeko said. "This was quite nearly bungled, Matrim Cauthon. The thing didn't seem surprised by the gateway. I think it sensed it anyway."

"Still managed to fight it off the platform," Mat said.

"Barely. You should have let us deal with the beast."

"Wouldn't have worked," Mat said, taking a wetted kerchief from Talmanes. Sumeko glanced at his arm, but Mat didn't ask for Healing. That cut would heal right nicely.

Towers of Midnight, Chapter "Into The Void" - Mat Cauthon point of view



Rand's point of view, of Skimming & its essence.

This particular text also has great significance towards the future unfolding events at the Black Tower because of Androl Genhald (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/a/androl_genhald.html)'s unique skill of opening HUGE gateways (TofM). It means that Androl is pre-disposed to be a very powerful Male Dreamer:

The gateway appeared at the foot of the steps, first a bright line that seemed to turn, opening into a square hole into blackness four paces wide. Not a murmur came from the Aiel. Those beyond would be able to see him as through a smoked glass, a dusky shimmering in the air, but they could as well try walking through one of the palace walls. From the side, the gateway would be invisible except to the few close enough to see what might seem a long, fine hair drawn tight.

Four paces was as large as Rand could make it. There were limits for one man by himself, Asmodean claimed; it seemed there were always limits. The amount of saidin you drew did not matter. The One Power had little to do with gateways, really; only the making. Beyond, was something else. A dream of a dream, Asmodean called it.

He stepped through onto what appeared to be a paving stone lifted from the courtyard, but here the gray square hung in the midst of utter darkness, with a sense that in every direction there was nothing. Nothing, forever. It was not like night. He could see himself and the stone perfectly. But everything else, everywhere else, was blackness.


It was time to see how large he could make a platform. With the thought, more stones appeared all at once, duplicating the courtyard to an inch. He imagined it larger still. That quickly, gray stone stretched as far as he could see. With a start, he realized that his boots were beginning to sink into the stone under his feet; it looked no different, yet it yielded slowly like mud, oozing up around his boots. Hastily, he brought everything back to a square the size of what was outside—that much stayed solid—then began increasing it by one outer row of stones at a time. It did not take long to realize he could not make the platform much larger than his first attempt. The stone still looked all right, it did not sink beneath his feet, but the second added row felt . . . insubstantial, like a thin shell that might crack at a wrong step. Was that because this was as large as the thing could be made? Or because he had not thought of it larger at first? We all make our limits. The thought slid up surprisingly from somewhere. And we set them further out than we have any right.

Rand felt himself shiver. In the Void, it seemed like feeling someone else shiver. It was well to be reminded that Lews Therin was still inside him. He had to be careful not to fall into a battle for self while confronting Rahvin. If not for that, he might have . . . No. What had happened on the quay was done; he would not make a hash of it for breakfast.

Reducing the platform by one outer ring of square stones, he turned. Bael was waiting out there in what seemed a huge square doorway into daylight with the steps beyond. At his side, Pevin looked no more perturbed by what he saw than the Aiel chief, which was to say not at all. Pevin would carry that banner wherever Rand went, even the Pit of Doom, and never blink. Mat shoved back his hat to scratch his head, then jerked it low again, muttering something about dice in his head.

The Fires of Heavens, Chapter 54 ‘To Caemlyn’ – Rand point of view


Where is the Gholam now?


Egwene would point to the Tel’aran’rhiod
Asmodean would claim 'a dream within a dream'.


Can a Gholam dream?

Lanfear once imply this answer to be yes.

. Only Gray Men and Myrddraal are denied dreams. Even Trollocs can dream.

The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 36 'Daughter of the Night' - Perrin point of view; with Hopper observing Lanfear & Ishamael in the Wolf Dream-3rd Constant


What might a Gholam dream of?

Eating, Drinking Blood.
Fulfilling its orders.

"You didn't have to kill her, burn you," Mat yelled at it. "You could have left her! You didn't want her; you wanted me!"

The thing merely grinned, its mouth an awful black, teeth twisted. "A bird must fly. A man must breathe. I must kill."

Towers of Midnight, Chapter "Blood In The Air" - Mat point of view

Res_Ipsa
11-25-2010, 12:04 AM
A dream inside a dream? I SAW INCEPTION TOO!

FelixPax
11-25-2010, 12:57 AM
A dream inside a dream? I SAW INCEPTION TOO!

Perhaps Robert Jordan & the writer of recent Inception (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inception_(film)) movie, each previously read Edgar Allan Poe poem entitled "A Dream Within a Dream" written in (1849)? :cool: Or perhaps the writer of Inception, Christopher Nolan is a Britney Spear (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream_Within_a_Dream_Tour) devotee, hard chuckles.... Now granted many other Musicians have sung songs called "Dream Within a Dream (http://allmusic.com/search/song/a+dream+within+a+dream)" too, according to AllMusic.com (http://allmusic.com/).


Its Asmodean who originally claimed the space, where that Gholam now is, is 'a dream within a dream'.



Asmodean at times does seem to embody parts of Poe's poem in his attitude, spoken to Rand.

Rand refused to be drawn. “Then why not go ahead and end it?” he asked in a tight voice. I wasn’t too blind to see what you and Lanfear were up to. I wasn’t too thick-witted to fool her and trap you. “If there’s no hope, no chance, not the smallest shred . . . then why are you still alive?”

Still not looking at him, Asmodean rubbed the side of his nose. “I once saw a man hanging from a cliff,” he said slowly. “The brink was crumbling under his fingers, and the only thing near enough to grasp was a tuft of grass, a few long blades with roots barely clinging to the rock. The only chance he had of climbing back up on the cliff. So he grabbed it.” His abrupt chuckle held no mirth. “He had to know it would pull free.”

“Did you save him?” Rand asked, but Asmodean did not answer.

As Rand started for the doorway, the sounds of “The March of Death” began again behind him.

The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 3 'Pale Shadows' - Rand point of view


A Dream Within A Dream by Edgar Allan Poe

Take this kiss upon the brow!
And, in parting from you now,
Thus much let me avow--
You are not wrong, who deem
That my days have been a dream;
Yet if hope has flown away
In a night, or in a day,
In a vision, or in none,
Is it therefore the less gone?
All that we see or seem
Is but a dream within a dream.

I stand amid the roar
Of a surf-tormented shore,
And I hold within my hand
Grains of the golden sand--
How few! yet how they creep
Through my fingers to the deep,
While I weep--while I weep!
O God! can I not grasp
Them with a tighter clasp?
O God! can I not save
One from the pitiless wave?
Is all that we see or seem
But a dream within a dream?


-- THE END --

for Orpheus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orpheus). Eurydice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurydice). Hermes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermes). And Barbara with infinite love as I falter on the road to Ithaka



Yet where is one place the Dark One's influence does not touch?


Multiple Mirror Worlds. (TofM, Epilogue 'After' - Graendal pov)
Mirror Worlds are indeed, a type of 'a dream, within a dream' too....


Although Mat Cauthon's fun-loving Gholem is not within a Mirror World, I believe. That Gholem is somewhere in the 3rd Constant or Wolf Dream now.

Terez
11-25-2010, 01:02 AM
I just repped Felix. Now I feel dirty.

Marie Curie 7
11-25-2010, 01:45 AM
The Gholam is not dead, yet.

Did you miss the part where Brandon verified at the Paris signing that the gholam is dead, dead, dead?

Towers of Midnight book tour 16 November 2010 WH Smith, Paris, France - Jonathan B. reporting

We discussed the gholam, if someone had pushed it through a gateway, would it have just died? Brandon said that gholam CAN go THROUGH gateways (from one place to another). He mentioned that this was the first time he had shared this information. Gholam are Shadowspawn of a more perfected kind. It would have been way too easy to kill if you just needed to shove it through a gateway (to another place). However, falling through the Skimming gateway for a few minutes did kill the gholam and it is really dead and it's not going to show up again.

Wunderwaffe
11-25-2010, 02:18 AM
If you can make a mobile gateway to a random place, you should be able to make a mobile gateway to a fixed place, at least that's how it seems to me. Just make a moving gateway to the skimming space and swallow the gholam with it. Or even if that is impossible, a deathgate would be a good way to send it somewhere totally random just to get it off your trail. I can imagine it would take the gholam quite a while to find you again if you gated it out to the middle of the ocean, or to the land of madmen, or some other random far-off place...

amazinglarry

I think a gateway or Deathgate would unravel when it came into contact with the Gholam. I don't have any evidence to support this notion, however.

GonzoTheGreat
11-25-2010, 05:11 AM
I just repped Felix. Now I feel dirty.Dirrty is by Christina Aguilera, it isn't a Britney song.

Plurality
11-25-2010, 05:33 AM
I most assuredly didn't think of the Gholam's death as lunacy or off the wall -- the two ways I thought you could kill a gholam where dropping him off a skimming platform or opening a horizontal gateway to a place below the earth's mantle, where the pressure would kill him instantly. Given the logical soundness of hit death, I couln't knock it all. Also, given the fact that "how the genre would have survived, Spies with . mIt doesn't apply to han off tthym.

GonzoTheGreat
11-25-2010, 05:40 AM
I had suggested simply dropping him into the middle of the ocean, so that he could starve to death while trying to swim to a place where he could find food.
Or, if you want to: make a gateway to the height of the peak of Dragonmount, but right above Tar Valon instead. Get the gholam through that, and let him fight against gravity.

Caveatar
11-25-2010, 09:56 AM
Perhaps Robert Jordan & the writer of recent Inception (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inception_(film)) movie, each previously read Edgar Allan Poe poem entitled "A Dream Within a Dream" written in (1849)? :cool:

Thanks for the Poe and the poem reminders Felix. I haven't read that poem since my mother made me memorize it on the hundredth year anniversary of its inception. (It was her version of the modern 'timeout' punishment for children. Her other punishment version was more like what the Mistress of Novices uses. :D

Khoram
11-25-2010, 11:00 AM
I had suggested simply dropping him into the middle of the ocean, so that he could starve to death while trying to swim to a place where he could find food.
Or, if you want to: make a gateway to the height of the peak of Dragonmount, but right above Tar Valon instead. Get the gholam through that, and let him fight against gravity.

Gonzo, your ideas brighten up my day. Very quirky. Thank you very much.

sheikh chilli
11-25-2010, 05:44 PM
the gholam. one of the greatest weapons made by the forsaken wasted. a gholam to the white tower would have been a smart move by the darkies.

sending one to the shador lagoth whilst rand was cleaning saidin would have been another. instead the beast was wasted chasing mat cauthon.

the darkies are just useless incompetent fools

dominominic
11-25-2010, 06:04 PM
the gholam. one of the greatest weapons made by the forsaken wasted. a gholam to the white tower would have been a smart move by the darkies.

sending one to the shador lagoth whilst rand was cleaning saidin would have been another. instead the beast was wasted chasing mat cauthon.

the darkies are just useless incompetent fools

Maybe they don't all really want Rand dead.

sheikh chilli
11-25-2010, 07:29 PM
Maybe they don't all really want Rand dead.

did'nt moridin say take him or kill him during that meeting with fellow forsaken when they found out rand's plan?

FelixPax
11-25-2010, 09:21 PM
Did you miss the part where Brandon verified at the Paris signing that the gholam is dead, dead, dead?

Obviously. :rolleyes:


Though recall that ka243 (http://theoryland.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=129071&postcount=48) edited his Paris signing report, days after it was originally written too. Sigh. Yes, I read the original report the day it was written, if you care to know.


If I was the author would I have verified this Gholam was dead?

No. :p
Why not verify?

It is a good possibility that a reader would suspect that this Gholam, might random kill women channelers who use Skimming and are on the Gholam's list.

Yes, that darn Gholam would have been a perfect way for the author to kill off excess Kin Elders and Sea Folk Windfinders.

Just imagine the Way is not a safe system to travel in, because of the Black Wind.
And that Gholam could have terrorized every single channeler who attempts to use Skimming.
People enter a Platform, yet mysteriously never return!


By confirming that the Gholam is "dead", if this Paris Bookstore signing report is verified as true and Brandon does not change his mind again (e.g. "Sulin" in TGS), Brandon Sanderson just confirmed that Skimming operating differently that the 3rd Constant or Wolf Dream. If the Skimming void operated similarly to the 3rd Constant, that Gholam should not have died.

I am highly curious what Jordan's Notes say about the Gholam and this outcome.

FelixPax
11-25-2010, 10:20 PM
The only thing this Gholam's death ultimately seals, is Graendal's repeated series of failures in Towers of Midnight book.


Graendal is mostly like the person, who re-directed the Gholam to go after Mat Cauthon first, not the others. (TofM, Ch. 9 'Blood In The Air' - Mat pov)


How might have Graendal gained control of Sammael's Gholam, after Sammael's death? She removed an item which controlled this Gholam, from Sammael's room. Not Taim or Rand's Asha'man.


Graendal wished there had been even a simple transcriber among the things she had removed from Illian after Sammael’s death. This Age was frightful usually, primitive and uncomfortable. Still, some of it suited her. In a large bamboo cage at the far end of the room a hundred brightly plumaged birds sang melodiously, almost as beautiful in their multicolored flitting as her two pets in transparent robes who waited on either side of the door, their gazes locked on her, eager to serve her pleasure. If oil lamps did not give the same light as glowbulbs, aided by large mirrors on the walls they produced a certain barbaric splendor with the gilded fish-scale ceiling. It would have been nice to need only speak the words, but actually putting them on paper with her own hand produced a pleasure akin to that she felt in sketching. The script of this Age was quite simple, and learning to duplicate another’s style had been no more difficult.


The Path of Daggers, Chapter 12 "New Alliances" - Graendal point of view


Graendal's series of failures in Towers of Midnight is one of its themes:


Graendal's Gholam failed to kill Mat Cauthon in Caemlyn.
Graendal failed to kill Perrin in Ghealdin.
Graendal indirectly set-up Mesaana to die, at Tar Valon in the 3rd Constant.
Graendal failed to captured the King of Arad Doman.
Graendal failed to stop Rand from beginning to set-up hope & life in Bandar Eban.
Graendal failed to keep Aran'gar alive.



Yes, Graendal is now Shaidar Haran's new play toy.

Graendal failed at capturing or killing a Ta'veren, even when they enter her realms. Be it Arad Doman or Murandy.


Moghedien is smiling at Graendal's fate.
Fear the Spider!

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/89/226981438_0b38392d2b.jpg
http://thumbs.dreamstime.com/thumb_213/11963760480720Av.jpg

Belazamon
11-26-2010, 01:37 AM
For some reason I always thought spiders were happier than that.

Terez
11-26-2010, 01:52 AM
I can't imagine why. Now that Asmodean is dead I should go back to happyspider.

GonzoTheGreat
11-26-2010, 04:19 AM
For some reason I always thought spiders were happier than that.At this particular point in the series, Moghedien is not a very happy spider.

Khoram
11-26-2010, 12:13 PM
At this particular point in the series, Moghedien is not a very happy spider.

At this point in the series, she doesn't feel much of anything except fear and pain. And a lot of it.

padfoot89
11-26-2010, 02:25 PM
My goodness, I hate spiders. Last thing I expected was seeing massive pics of them in a WoT thread...

Terez
11-26-2010, 03:26 PM
Jumping spiders are awesome.

dominominic
11-26-2010, 03:28 PM
Jumping spiders are awesome.

That is a handsome spider.

Edit: Unless it's a lady spider. Then it's pretty. Even if it eats the male.

Jonai
11-26-2010, 03:29 PM
At this point in the series, she doesn't feel much of anything except fear and pain. And a lot of it.

MOGGY SHALL RISE AGAIN.

wyk
11-26-2010, 06:48 PM
Jumping spiders are awesome.

barking spiders are better...

morat'corlm
11-26-2010, 07:25 PM
Dead spiders are the best of all. Except for Moghedien. I hope she lives.

GonzoTheGreat
11-27-2010, 04:17 AM
My goodness, I hate spiders. Last thing I expected was seeing massive pics of them in a WoT thread...Read and find out. Read and find out.

And I sort of share your view of spiders. I do not hate them, but I definitely do not like them either. They have the wrong kind of legs, and they move in the wrong way with them.

Khoram
11-28-2010, 01:02 PM
Read and find out. Read and find out.

And I sort of share your view of spiders. I do not hate them, but I definitely do not like them either. They have the wrong kind of legs, and they move in the wrong way with them.

And they have too many eyes, and many are extremely hairy...

Nevertheless, I don't mind spiders.