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View Full Version : Demandred is NOT in Murandy! Surprise!


SixPips
11-23-2010, 07:29 AM
There are as many threads out there right now on why Demandred MUST be ruling Murandy as there are users on this forum. I decided to take a different approach and thus, this will be a discussion of the reasons Demandred IS NOT the king of Murandy, or any power behind the throne shenanigans like Rahvin.

1.) Demandred is a well known General. As such, there would be little reason for him to conscript the Band of the Red Hand to help his armies defeat the solitary nobles of his land and bind the land to him.
2.) He is a fricken FORSAKEN. Why, oh why, oh why!? Would one of the Forsaken not only ask for the help of outside forces to secure his rule, but then actually pay them for their services instead of destroying them? BOTRH’s coffers are full up because the services provided to the King of Murandy. Demandred would have no reason to pay people he could manipulate, destroy, or at the very least intimidate into not asking for payment. (not to mention Compulsion etc…)
3.) It doesn’t fit the rest of the Forsaken. Once again, the outside help thing is SO anti-Forsaken, it strikes me as impossible. No other of the Forsaken required assistance in capturing their lands, and none of them took this long to consolidate their lands.
4.) This part I am not 100% on, but I have heard from other sources on the site that Demandred has received screen time only during his meetings with the other Forsaken. If this is correct it invalidates the King of Murandy as Roedran Almaric was seen at the meeting with Egwene as the Amyrlin of the rebels.


In conclusion, I just want to say…heh I did it :cool:

Jonai
11-23-2010, 07:43 AM
Of course he's the King of Murandy. He's Perrin's Beard. In all seriousness though, you make a good point with number 4. RJ said we haven't seen his alter ego as of CoT. But I don't know if that means we haven't seen him on screen or just haven't seen him referenced. I think it just boils down to, who would want Murandy? It's worse than Altara for being totally useless. I doubt they could fight their way out of paper sack.

Andorman Revere: Arise! Arise! The Murandians are coming! The Murandians are coming! (o noes)

jana
11-23-2010, 07:49 AM
Roedran Almaric was seen at the meeting with Egwene as the Amyrlin of the rebels.

No, he wasn't. Talmanes was there, talking about Roedran.

David Selig
11-23-2010, 08:15 AM
I don't really believe in Roedrandred, but I will play devil's advocate here:

1) Even the best general can't do much without sufficient army. The Murandian King doesn't have an own army anywhere near big enough to overpower the other local nobles, so hiring mercenaries makes sense.

2) and 3) The reason could be simply to keep his cover. If out of the blue all Murandian nobles just submit to him because of Compulsion, this would probably make Rand very suspicious after what happened in Andor, Illian and Tear with the other Forsaken.

4) is wrong, as Jana already wrote.

amazinglarry
11-23-2010, 09:38 AM
One thing that I thought pointed towards Demandred as Roedran was the conspicuous absence of Murandy at the Field of Merrilor. I don't remember exactly why Roedran didn't come - he didn't respond to Egwene's attempts at communication, right? Sorry, I don't have the book with me right now. Anyway it seemed like another piece of evidence pointing towards Murandy just because it's the only kingdom whose ruler we still don't really know much about...

amazinglarry

Elwynn
11-23-2010, 09:58 AM
Don't know if it helps...

But BS stated his alter ego hasn't been on screen as of KoD.
Refused to answer whether he was seen in TGS for fear of narrowing it down
Then said he wasn't seen in ToM.

Did we meet anyone we hadn't seen before in TGS?

One Armed Gimp
11-23-2010, 11:00 AM
4.) This part I am not 100% on, but I have heard from other sources on the site that Demandred has received screen time only during his meetings with the other Forsaken. If this is correct it invalidates the King of Murandy as Roedran Almaric was seen at the meeting with Egwene as the Amyrlin of the rebels.


In conclusion, I just want to say…heh I did it :cool:

No, you didn't.

arioch
11-23-2010, 11:10 AM
Don't know if it helps...

But BS stated his alter ego hasn't been on screen as of KoD.
Refused to answer whether he was seen in TGS for fear of narrowing it down
Then said he wasn't seen in ToM.

Did we meet anyone we hadn't seen before in TGS?

If that is exactly what BS stated about Demandred with regards to TGS then any character that showed up only in TGS and nowhere else has only a 50/50 of being a Demandred candidate. Not much to go on.

GonzoTheGreat
11-23-2010, 11:46 AM
If that is exactly what BS stated about Demandred with regards to TGS then any character that showed up only in TGS and nowhere else has only a 50/50 of being a Demandred candidate. Not much to go on.If there's six of them, would that mean that we end up with three Demandred's?

arioch
11-23-2010, 12:49 PM
If there's six of them, would that mean that we end up with three Demandred's?

So that's his master plan.

No, I'm saying even if there were characters unique to TGS that never show up prior, or in ToM, then at best they're only 50/50 for even being a candidate, because it's still possible Demandred never showed up in an alter ego in TGS either.

Flinn Sedai
11-23-2010, 02:42 PM
There are as many threads out there right now on why Demandred MUST be ruling Murandy as there are users on this forum. I decided to take a different approach and thus, this will be a discussion of the reasons Demandred IS NOT the king of Murandy, or any power behind the throne shenanigans like Rahvin.

[QUOTE=SixPips;130973]1.) Demandred is a well known General. As such, there would be little reason for him to conscript the Band of the Red Hand to help his armies defeat the solitary nobles of his land and bind the land to him.

He didn't hire them as an actual army. He hired them as a tactical move to get the other Nobles to follow him. That sounds like the thinking of a General to me.

Also, most Generals prefer the easy way to the hard way.

Easy way: Make the Nobles come to you against a foreign invader.
Hard way: Find every noble in Murandy, Compulse them, then remember that people who are strong willed are hard to control with Compulsion, and that all of Murandy is made of contentious, strong willed people, so you can't even let the Nobles out of your sight. Don't give a reason why things are different. Just make sudden changes like happened in Tear, Andor, Arad Domon, etc... That worked out well before. So, find all of Rand's armies at your doorstep and fight them while watching all the Nobles, and... point made. :-P

2.) He is a fricken FORSAKEN. Why, oh why, oh why!? Would one of the Forsaken not only ask for the help of outside forces to secure his rule, but then actually pay them for their services instead of destroying them? BOTRH’s coffers are full up because the services provided to the King of Murandy. Demandred would have no reason to pay people he could manipulate, destroy, or at the very least intimidate into not asking for payment. (not to mention Compulsion etc…)

Maybe it would seem suspicious if an army with a reputation of never losing a battle, led by one of the Dragon's best friends and another Ta'varen disappeared for no reason.

Also, they were intimidated. They made it clear that they left because Demandred.... I mean Roedran was getting his army together and they thought he was going to attack (see: your point).

Also, where did a not very powerful King get that kind of money. We've seen from Elayne what a Queen
from a wealthy Nation, with lots of resources can afford. She was running out of money after a few months of an army MUCH smaller than the Band. How could Roedran afford to pay them enough to cover a couple years?

3.) It doesn’t fit the rest of the Forsaken. Once again, the outside help thing is SO anti-Forsaken, it strikes me as impossible. No other of the Forsaken required assistance in capturing their lands, and none of them took this long to consolidate their lands.

Like how Graendal never dealt with Nobles? Or how since the others did it like that, it still attracted WAAAAY too much attention to themselves, and brought Rand down on them?

He didn't REQUIRE the Band of the Red Hand to take the lands. He REQUIRED them to keep the lands and armies from Rand (something Demandred was supposedly quite good at in the Age of Legends).

4.) This part I am not 100% on, but I have heard from other sources on the site that Demandred has received screen time only during his meetings with the other Forsaken. If this is correct it invalidates the King of Murandy as Roedran Almaric was seen at the meeting with Egwene as the Amyrlin of the rebels.

Yeah. I think it's been said, but that didn't happen. It's actually the exact opposite. Roedran has never been seen on screen, but only referenced, and Sanderson said that we should be able to figure it out.

I have a fairly thorough discussion of why it has to be Roedran under "Demandred's rule is secure".

kivo
11-23-2010, 07:38 PM
He's Perrin's Beard.

FWIW, I'm convinced at this point that Faile and Perrin's relationship is sincere and not a cover, and that Faile is not Demandred. Though it would explain why Perrin is so heartbroken about that pretty boy Aram...

dpt24
11-23-2010, 08:13 PM
Murandy's kinda pointless. I could see Roderan being under Demerdred's control... but not who he actually is. I'd guess he's up to something in the Isle of Madmen or Sahra even though both haven't been mentioned much in the books... it makes a lot of sense that someone from the Shadow would do something over there... they're both very good opporunities... After all, an Island full of crazy people would be fairly easy to convert to the shadow, and gives him access to more channelers than anyone but maybe Moridin

jana
11-23-2010, 08:16 PM
Murandy's kinda pointless.

That's precisely why it's a good choice. Everyone thinks it's insignificant.

Look at all of these places as exactly that. Places. Land masses. Murandy is just a good a place as any to set up whatever he wants to set up. Actually it's better than most places, because nobody cares what happens there.

GonzoTheGreat
11-24-2010, 03:52 AM
But what happens in Murandy stays in Murandy. Which makes conquering the world from there a bit tricky.

Vidulous
11-24-2010, 06:34 AM
It occurred to me today that everyone (myself included) is thinking of Murandy as a tiny insignificant nation in the middle of nowhere. Which, to be sure, it is. And I am sure that is how everyone in Randland currently sees it, too.

But thankfully I couldn't wait for ToM, and got it in hardback, which means I had the opportunity to see the full-colour map for the first time in years. I was amazed at the sense of wonder the thing can instill in me after all this time.

Anyway. Murandy is right below Andor (== Elayne). It is right above Illian (== Rand). It is right next to Altara (== Seanchan). Presumably, everyone is assuming that the Shadowspawn will come pouring out of the Blight. Everyone is looking north. Who would suspect a sneak-attack from behind their lines? And if there is a Waygate in Murandy (they're everywhere, why not there too?) then Aaaarrgh!:eek:

Of course with Caemlyn already in flames, the Seanchan not seeming particularly weakened, and only one book to go, it could be debated how much even a sneak attack could do. But anyway, thought I would just throw it out there. Murandy: not so tactically stupid.

On the other hand: what better way to align Rand, Elayne and the Seanchan than provide a common threat right in the middle of them. But maybe Demandred is just that ballsy :D

GonzoTheGreat
11-24-2010, 06:40 AM
Yes, rather than being in the middle of nowhere, Murandy is in the middle of everywhere. That's sort of the whole* point the "that's where Demandred is" faction is trying to hammer home.

However, I still prefer the "Demandred is an Aiel clan chief" theory I've been nurturing for lots of books now. I've not researched this theory too closely, yet. Purely out of lazyness, of course. Nothing to do with a suspicion that it might fall apart if looked at with too heavy a gaze.

* Well, one of the whole points. They do have a couple more, I admit.

jana
11-24-2010, 06:58 AM
I don't even care about central location. I just figure that Demandred needs a staging area. He can transport his minions wherever he wants. Any land will do. As long as it's land that nobody will come snooping around.

The bonus of Murandy is that there's civilization. He doesn't have to live in the middle of nowhere. He can still receive news. Lugard is a big trade city. Feeding his minions from there would be easy.

We don't know a whole lot about him. Maybe he likes living near people and having a somewhat "normal" life (as far as commanders/kings go) other than the fact he's allied with the Dark One.

SixPips
11-24-2010, 08:54 AM
Great replies all, After I wrote this post I got the big white book of everything in the mail and read most of it. The part of the book that interested me most was Demandred's profile. It was iterated and reiterated that "Almost was the story of Demandred's life. He was almost as good of a general as Lews Therin, Almost as acclaimed, wrote almost as acclaimed of books...etc" and one part of the book refers to his anger over LTT being chosen to lead the war effort over him against the shadow as being the reason he moved to the shadow. That being said, I want to submit another idea:

So many people went through the Taimandred theory I got tired of seeing it before RJ even said he wasn't Taim. BUT, RJ didn't say he had no affiliations with the Black Tower.

I think that the dreamspike we see at the Black Tower was given to Damondred by Moridin, just as the Spike he gave Graendal was used by her. I think Demandred is running things at the BT, guiding the M'Hael Taim and Taim is serving him quite faithfully due to the knowledge shared with him by Demandred.

My biggest reason for believing this is that I think nothing would please him more than taking something LTT created and using it against him. I think Demandred wanted the BT not only because the sheer power of ruling it, but because the sheer "What now b@*#$ I got yo men, and they work better for me than they ever did you!" appeal of it. :rolleyes:

LewsTherin10
11-24-2010, 11:58 AM
I can't help but agree. I was thinking about this myself. Demandred mentions in ToM that his rule is secure and I think I remember him mentioning in one of the other recent books that he has an army at his disposal. It does seem that the idea to for turning Asha"man and Aes Sedai to the Shadow using 13&13 and the dreamspike would come from one of the Forsaken.

We know that Taim has been in contact with Demandred. On the other hand, we know that Taim has been in direct contact with Moridin also(see WH). So it is possible that Moridin planned the BT mess with Taim.

Elwynn
11-24-2010, 12:16 PM
Just to help the last couple posts...

Robert Jordan Answers: Yes. Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim. All right, those of who fell over from the shock of a simple, straightforward answer can get up off the floor now. Sometimes, simple and straightforward can be the most devious of all, as any student of Aes Sedai will tell you.

Though I guess that would be some support for Taim=Morridin as well.

FelixPax
11-24-2010, 02:17 PM
It occurred to me today that everyone (myself included) is thinking of Murandy as a tiny insignificant nation in the middle of nowhere. Which, to be sure, it is. And I am sure that is how everyone in Randland currently sees it, too.

Murandy once was a center of commerce, distribution of goods & information among the South Nations: Amadicia, Altara, Illian, Tear to Andor, Tar Valon. How? Wagon based commerce.

The only real alternative before Traveling gateways were created to avoid moving goods through Murandy, was to use the two or three major Rivers Systems: Erinin, Manetherendrelle & Eldar.

But Tear's dislike and warring with Illian previously would have distressed commerce & trade between Rivers Systems: Erinin & Manetherendrelle.

Likewise Illian under Sammael was on the warpath and once sent its armies northward into Murandy.


Why might have Graendal decide to meet with and to set-up the face-off of Sammael versus Rand al'Thor in ACoS? Because Graendal had an interest in Lugard, Murandy.

Mesaana & Alviarin's Black Ajah also had an interest & influenced a bunch of Northern Murandy Nobles too. They helped set-up a plan to delay the Salidar Aes Sedai Rebels in Murandy, using by Northern Murandy Nobles & manipulating 3 major Andoran Noble Houses to stop them from crossing into Andor.

Talmanes section of the Band of Red Hand was hired by King Roedran, whom was controlled ultimately by Tairen High Lady Alteima & Graendal, not Mesaana's & Alviarin's influenced group of Northern Murandy Nobles.

One good question is how much did Mesaana & Graendal knowingly interact within Murandy? Mesaana is suspected of operating all across the Southern Nations: Cairhien, Andor, Illian, Tear Murandy and in the White Tower. Which implies Mesaana has some amount of knowledge of Be'lal, Rahvin, Sammael, Graendal plans. That's besides her own faction of Semirhage & Demandred.

Aran'gar once claimed Graendal had very good darkfriend connections compared to other Chosen (KoD, Ch.3), which implies a prior nexus of operations within Murandy. Why? Because Murandy was once the largest center of information trading in the South Nations, of any location or nation. Yes, larger than Illian, Tear, Altara or Far Madding.

Almost every single Chosen who is a neighbor of Graendal has been set-up to die or their interests attacks, by her hand: Asmodean in Caemlyn, Semirhage's Seanchan interests attacked in Tarabon, Rahvin in Caemlyn when Graendal did not aid him against Rand al'Thor.

Aran'gar's ultimate death though, I believe was set-up by Moghedien planting that boy in Ebou Dar for Nynaeve to find (TGS). Graendal though was smart enough to barely survive Rand's balefire of her palace when found, by trading Aran'gar's & Delana lives for her survival. Graendal knew that the Spider, Moghedien would come after her... after applying Compulsion to Moghedien (TPoD,Chapter 12). Moghedien had the knowledge & motive to set-up one or both of Graendal & Aran'gar to die by Nynaeve & Rand's hand in Arad Doman.


Anyway. Murandy is right below Andor (== Elayne). It is right above Illian (== Rand). It is right next to Altara (== Seanchan). Presumably, everyone is assuming that the Shadowspawn will come pouring out of the Blight. Everyone is looking north. Who would suspect a sneak-attack from behind their lines? And if there is a Waygate in Murandy (they're everywhere, why not there too?) then Aaaarrgh!:eek:

If Demandred is intelligent, he'd have set-up his sneak attack base of operations within the huge area called the Shadow Coast Mountains. A place which would enable a successful surprise attack upon both Semirhage's pawns & al'Thor homeland of Two Rivers relatively easily. A place with two Waygates. A place with the space & cover to hold millions of Trollocs without Humans ever noticing them.


Who hates the Wilderness? Graendal.
What is Shadow Coast Mountains mostly? Wilderness & Mountains.

Graendal's blind spot is one reason she has not found Demandred's nor his armies yet.

Vidulous
11-25-2010, 08:52 AM
The Shadow Coast! That'd be cool. I can just picture the Lightsiders staring at one another when they realise it... "Damn... the *Shadow* Coast. How'd we miss *that* one...? Oh, well. Guess we're doomed."

Having read a bit more of other threads in this and other forums, I now see that this was intended to be a place to discuss the idea Demandred was NOT in Murandy. I do apologise; I was overexcited by the shiny shiny map....

Also, after a few hours examining the MOUNTAINS of evidence on said threads pointing to Murandy, I can't help but feel that it would be so very Jordan to have it end up not ending up that way at all. It'd not be a total surprise to me to discover that he's really been somewhere completely different - among the Aiel, posing as Rhuarc; in Rand's entourage, posing as Sorilea; at Stedding Shangtai, posing as Elder Haman....

Vidulous
11-25-2010, 09:09 AM
"Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim"

Clearly this was a subtle clue to the real truth:

"Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim because he IS Mazrim Taim, and thus has no need to pose as himself. Muah ha ha haa!!"

I wish I could believe The Creator could be this sneaky, but alas, I can't.

jana
11-25-2010, 09:25 AM
"Demandred has never posed as Mazrim Taim because he IS Mazrim Taim, and thus has no need to pose as himself. Muah ha ha haa!!"

I wish I could believe The Creator could be this sneaky, but alas, I can't.

I'd believe it. I think that is something RJ would do.

Unfortunately at one point he said that we hadn't seen Demandred's alter ego on screen.

Jonai
11-25-2010, 10:21 AM
Sorry Felix, as soon as I read "Murandy is complex" my eyes glazed over.

Plurality
11-25-2010, 12:46 PM
I'm convinced Demandred is either ruling Shara or the Isle of Madmen, and is going to gateway in hundreds of thousands of soldiers and thousands of channelers of unknown abilities at the Last Battle.

nameless
11-25-2010, 02:15 PM
There was a brief mention of a "murdered" seated on the Crystal Throne back in Seanchan, which could be Demandred. If he is in Murandy he's likely controlling Roedran rather than impersonating him or replacing him entirely. Demandred likes proxies, we've been told, and there's no reason for him to dress up like a king when he can just Compel the real guy.

morat'corlm
11-25-2010, 06:52 PM
I'm convinced Demandred is either ruling Shara or the Isle of Madmen“The Land of the Madmen” is not part of the series and is given only three paragraphs in TWORJTWOT. There's no chance it will suddenly be introduced to the series in the final book; that would just be terrible writing. Shara's possible, given that it's been danced around for eleven books now; in fact, I'm desperately hoping Demandred's in Shara rather than Murandy, though Murandy is the better bet.

FelixPax
11-25-2010, 07:50 PM
Having read a bit more of other threads in this and other forums, I now see that this was intended to be a place to discuss the idea Demandred was NOT in Murandy. I do apologise; I was overexcited by the shiny shiny map....

Don't worry about that, as your not the only one to get excited about shiny maps. :)

http://i407.photobucket.com/albums/pp151/FelixPax/Wheel%20of%20Time%20maps/AltaraandShiotamapsoverlayed-withne.png

Red & White Striped area of the map, is King Roedran's area of control which includes Lugard. That's also where I believe High Lady Alteima & Graendal sphere of influence exists, too.

Light Blue & White Striped area of the map, within which Egwene's Rebel Aes Sedai army met a group of Northern Murandy Nobles & Three Andoran Noble Houses (TPoD, Ch. 17-18). That's where Mesaana & Alviarin planned to stop the Egwene's force originally (CoT, Ch.21).


Note all 'Solid Color' areas of this above map are wilderness or are relatively empty of human settlements.


The 'Red Colored' areas of this map including Striped, Solid and Brick patterns, outline the territory of a former nation called Aldeshar. Lugard, Whitebridge each were a part of the Post-Trolloc War nation of Aldeshar.

The Light Blue Colored areas of this map including Striped, Bricked and Checkers, outline the territory of a former nation called Nerevan. No known major city or town of Nerevan is listed on any WoT map I know of. Though the town of Four Kings is literally on dividing line of Nerevan, Aldeshar and Caembarin in the northeast direction of the map.


What's curious about these old boundary lines of nations, among other things is how is points out areas of conflicts between People & Chosen.





Illian under Sammael invaded parts of Murandy early in the series, and took possess of lands from Murandy Nobles. This particular land taken once was part of Nerevan. Mesaana's faction and Graendal each had to note the push early on by Sammael, attempt to takeover an area of the world each of them were interested in.

Mesaana's Black Ajah in the White Tower at this time was aiding Rahvin, likely Javindhra Doraille & Galina (TFoH, Prologue). Meantime Graendal had at least two priorities in guiding Sammael to face-off with Rand al'Thor in the near future. First, if Sammael is going to face an attack by Rand's forces out of the Plains of Maredo, he's going to be busy. Since Sammael's focus is on Rand then, he is not likely going to invade Graendal toe-hold in Lugard with King Roedran--southern section of former Aldeshar. Second, if Rand al'Thor is going to face-off with Sammael, he will be too busy to think about doing anything in Arad Doman or Murandy.


This division in Murandy, between areas partially influenced by Graendal and Mesaana created I think a nexus where Graendal should have noticed Mesaana impacts in Murandy. I suspect that's why Graendal was highly interested in learning where Mesaana, was ultimately placed outside of Murandy (e.g. former Nerevan). (LoC, Prologue; LoC, Chapter 6; LoC, Chapter 23)


According to Sammael, its almost a certainty that the former Tairen High Lady Alteima is not a Darkfriend. Just a cutthroat, power hungry woman, who has ended up in a very bad position repeatedly (TFoH & TofM books).

When she served Graendal, the woman’s face was a portrait of worship. There was never any trouble about speaking in front of her servants and pets, though they would not number a single Friend of the Dark among them. She distrusted Friends of the Dark, claiming they were too easily swayed, but the level of Compulsion used on those who served her personally left little room for anything beyond adoration.

Lord of Chaos, Chapter 6 'Threads Woven of Shadow' - Sammael point of view


Alteima's later escape to Lugard to seek a position of influence, power away from territories controlled by the Dragon Reborn pushed her to ultimately to Graendal section of Murandy. That's how she ended up next to Graendal ultimately, after Graendal needed a Maid (TGS book). Graendal had little time to train a new personal Maid, so she took King Roedran influential helper: former High Lady Alteima. Why? Because Alteima did not have to be trained.

...who could know the duties of a lady’s maid better than a lady?

The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 1 'Fanning the Sparks' - former High Lady Alteima point of view


What did Sammael think about Graendal methods of operation?

She herself had always believed in being the power behind the power.

Lord of Chaos, Chapter 6 'Threads Woven of Shadow' - Graendal point of view

Graendal using King Roedran fits Sammael interpretation of her.


Why was the Salidar Aes Sedai army able to cross Graendal section of Murandy relatively easily?


Graendal was busy in Shara for a good part of the time (LoC, Ch.6), during which Egwene's army moving across Murandy's section of former Aldeshar. All in an attempt to aid a set-up of Sammael to fight Rand al'Thor. Who ever wins, Graendal would come out alive, and likely Sammael or al'Thor dies.

Secondly, Graendal's thought at one time suggest that the Lugard part of Murandy was more of a back-up plan than a main focus for her. As was her Shara plans to, a back-up plan.


“You will know all when it is time, and not before. But a small advice, Graendal. Prepare now. Where are they?”

Her mind worked furiously. He must have had that promise. He must. But why him? No, there was no time for speculation. The Great Lord chose as he wished. And Sammael knew where she was, at least. She could flee Arad Doman, establish herself elsewhere; it would not be difficult. Giving up the little games she played there, and even the larger games that might have to be abandoned, would be a small loss compared with having al’Thor—or Lews Therin—come after her. She had no intention of ever confronting him directly; if Ishamael and Rahvin had fallen to him, she was not about to risk his strength, not head-on.

Lord of Chaos, Chapter 23 'To Understand a Message" - Graendal point of view

Graendal's suggestion also implies that former High Lady Alteima had a small period of time, between which to influence King Roedran without Graendal's direct influence in Lugard.


Graendal later influence in Murandy also would give support to reasoning, as to why Graendal later entered the White Tower acting "imperious" towards Alviarin (ACoS, Prologue 'Lightnings'). The Salidar Aes Sedai army in Murandy was likely a reason for Graendal to order around Alviarin, in the White Tower. This reason, is also why Mesaana demands this of Alviarin:

“If you would serve me, child, then you must serve and obey me. Not Semirhage or Demandred. Not Graendal or anyone else. Only me. And the Great Lord, of course, but me above all save him.”

A Crown of Swords, Prologue 'Lightnings' - Alviarin point of view

Mesaana does not want to lose her control of the Alviarin's Black Ajah, to Graendal.


When I first read Towers of Midnight, I wondered why Demandred did not pop up on-scene leading an invasion out of the Shadow Coast Mountains or using a giant sa'angreal based in the Black Hills to flay a city?


Upon a some reflection this book seems partially focused around Graendal losing out to Ta'veren luck. It's one of themes, on the Shadow's side.


Perrin avoided two of Graendal's traps. 1st: Isam & his Dreamspike. 2nd: A Shadowspawn army set-up to ambush his force in Ghealdan.
Mat Cauthon avoided being killed by a Gholam re-directed specifically to attack him first. A Gholam most likely re-directed by Graendal personally. (See Gholam thread for that evidence).



And yes, Graendal losing out to Shaidar Haran's lusts (TofM, Epilogue).

Terez
11-25-2010, 09:09 PM
Felix is still crazy. And all is right with the world.

FelixPax
11-25-2010, 09:42 PM
Felix is still crazy. And all is right with the world.

I'm actually a surprised you of all individuals, never suspected that Graendal might have played a hand in Murandy at a later date.

As least Demandred once claimed, "Simple was never associated with Graendal." (WH, Ch.13 'Wonderful News'). :D

morat'corlm
11-25-2010, 10:45 PM
So this entire Graendal-in-Murandy thesis is based on her having acquired the High Lady Alteima in Murandy, rather than in Caemlyn shortly after Rahvin's death, when she killed Asmodean?

Alteima may in fact be mentioned in LOC6:
A lithe dark-haired woman, not young but with the sort of pale beauty and elegance that would last all her life, appeared at his elbow cradling a crystal goblet of dark wine punch in both hands.

looqas
11-29-2010, 03:19 AM
Don't know if it helps...

But BS stated his alter ego hasn't been on screen as of KoD.
Refused to answer whether he was seen in TGS for fear of narrowing it down
Then said he wasn't seen in ToM.

Did we meet anyone we hadn't seen before in TGS?

So let me get this straight.

We have seen Dem's alter ego on screen, BUT before KoD?

Crud, there goes my lame theory of Dem = Nessen (or whatever Ashaman that got way too powerful and way too fast in ToM). I'm all the more happy if Dem is not copy-catting Osangar in this regard.

But I find the theory Dem being some Murandian hidalgo appealing. After all it was where the 4 renegades tried to kill off Rand and for a Forsaken it's a ballsy move to be in. A double edged sword. He can not use the One Power, but same goes for Rand. And Rand makes interesting comments about the importance of Far Madding of being a city of importance for a long time in ToM.

skaywalker
11-29-2010, 04:21 AM
So let me get this straight.

Crud, there goes my lame theory of Dem = Nessen (or whatever Ashaman that got way too powerful and way too fast in ToM). I'm all the more happy if Dem is not copy-catting Osangar in this regard.

But I find the theory Dem being some Murandian hidalgo appealing. After all it was where the 4 renegades tried to kill off Rand and for a Forsaken it's a ballsy move to be in. A double edged sword. He can not use the One Power, but same goes for Rand. And Rand makes interesting comments about the importance of Far Madding of being a city of importance for a long time in ToM.

You are confusing Murandy with Far Madding. Far Madding is just a city, Murandy is a whole country.

GonzoTheGreat
11-29-2010, 04:25 AM
We have seen Dem's alter ego on screen, BUT before KoD?No, he had not been on screen in any book up to and including KoD. Nor was he on screen in ToM.
Except in his primary role as a dread Forsaken, of course.

This means that his alter ego may have been seen in TGS (or maybe not), but definitely not in any other book. The alter ego was probably mentioned, of course, though not even this is entirely certain.

looqas
11-29-2010, 04:30 AM
I stand corrected. Murandy != Far Madding.

But he still could be hiding behind The Guardians.

I just hope he won't turn out to be "Nessen" (someone please correct me on this because I always cringe when I see even prominent chars' names misspelled).

skaywalker
11-29-2010, 04:37 AM
I stand corrected. Murandy != Far Madding.

But he still could be hiding behind The Guardians.

I just hope he won't turn out to be "Nessen" (someone please correct me on this because I always cringe when I see even prominent chars' names misspelled).

I think you are talking about Narishma. And he is not Demandred :)

yasiru89
11-29-2010, 05:13 AM
For some reason the multi-quote is acting up, so forgive the lack of references to prior posts:

About Murandy being in the 'middle of everywhere', what about Portal Stones? Rand doesn't seem to have thought of those despite vesting resources on the Ways. Especially with his rogue Asha'man (who might link for strength with Black Ajah) they would be perfect for sneak attacks without having to cross borders over land.
As for the Shadow Coast, wouldn't that be under Seanchan rule given the placement? And it doesn't seem to harbour much in the way of civilisation either.

And about Demandred taking pleasure in turning something Lews Therin created in the form of the Black Tower- I think that's more the sort of thing Sammael would have done. Demandred's personality indicates that he would have wanted to create a better Black Tower if he was concerned with that sort of thing. In fact, this is probably exactly what he's doing- in Shara, raising armies of channellers!
Remember the Sharan fellow in Tear trying to sell silk worms? Perhaps he left Shara because he was uneasy about Demandred- we've seen previously that the Forsaken sometimes do that to people even if people can't figure out exactly what is disconcerting (the innkeeper's dreams in tDR for instance, though I admit that might have been a special instance).
Not sure if this one has been shot down, but Shara seems too well-established in their channellers' practices to be overlooked so brazenly.

If not for the lack of exposure in the novels themselves, given Semirhage's alliance with Demandred (and Mesaana), those Domination Bands might have been in mass production along with the a'dam to make the inhabitants of the Isle of Madmen come to heel.

On the other hand how about Demandred is Sorilea? :D

So this entire Graendal-in-Murandy thesis is based on her having acquired the High Lady Alteima in Murandy, rather than in Caemlyn shortly after Rahvin's death, when she killed Asmodean?


She also stole an angreal (and perhaps other things) that time, didn't she? Given she did it so leisurely I'd not be surprised she picked up Alteima there.

looqas
11-29-2010, 05:27 AM
I think you are talking about Narishma. And he is not Demandred :)

No. I'm talking about that new hotshot Ashaman in Black Tower that Androl specifically notes that has gotten powerful all of the sudden and doing weaves masterfully. And as such he has never been in the books before ToM.

I have to re-read that bit. If I remember there were couple of those Ashaman, but one's name was Nessen, Nessin or something like that.

Someone with access to the book could copy-paste the relevant paragraph here.

morat'corlm
11-29-2010, 05:43 AM
"The men who take Taim's private lessons learn too quickly," Nalaam said. "Nensen was barely powerful enough to be considered for Dedicated just a short time ago. Now he's full Asha'man. Something very strange is going on [...]
"Something is strange about Nensen," Nalaam repeated. "And that Kash. Where did he even come from, and how did he grow so powerful so quickly?Oh, that Kash.

looqas
11-29-2010, 06:01 AM
thank you morat.

That was exactly the place I was referring to.

but you are right. It was not Nensen. The prime suspect for me for Demandred now is Kash.

And if it turn out so then I'm rather disappointed. Because Corlan Dashiva/Osangar used it already.

I'm on a fence if we ever even should be wishing for Demandred to have an alter ego out there. Maybe it would be for the best that Demandred just pops up in a cool way. All because at this point on the eve of the LB forcibly inserting a Demandred's alter ego to the story would feel a distraction and take the focus out of the Last Battle. But then we get the line "My rule is secure" meaning that he has to have a power base somewhere. If that is the case I incline to start looking among the Seanchan.