Sad commentary

[Ivhon]

So. Im getting ready to take the GRE and I take a practice test online to get a benchmark on what I need to review.

Now, I was a (generous) C- math student all the way through and an A English student if I bothered to write the papers.

I post here fairly regularly, work several crosswords a week and have had "verbal intensive" occupations and hobbies since college.

Winging this thing...not cracking a book for review... I got a
630 on the math section. SIX THIRTY! I havent done math in years (calculators do it for me). My verbal was 540. FIVE FORTY (granted I screwed the first couple up because I thought they were looking for synonyms and they were looking for antonyms).

Regardless, Im pretty disgusted that this country is so afraid of learning math, teaching math or admitting that we suck at math that they jimmy the scores THIS MUCH to make it seem like we know what we are doing...

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Um, waitaminute... I could get a better score on the GRE NOW?

[Sinistrum]

math=evil :p

[4Alethinos]

I am surprised at your surprise. I wonder how students of today would fare with the College Entrance Boards I took in 1953? They were the predecessor of the SATs. I suspect that students would not fare well, at all. They have been dumbing down tests for decades to make it easier for unqualfied students to get into schools where they cannot accomplish anything and wind up destroying them. The other thing that has happened is that the schools themselves are dumbed down to the point of mediocrity,

We learn this when we compare our students to those overseas. US students do not fare well at all on average.

Why is it that the best school of engineering and science is now said to be India? What happened to MIT and CalTech and Harvey Mudd and the other insitutes of technology in this country?

This is why my kids and grandkids do not go to public school.

[Ozymandias]

Why is it that the best school of engineering and science is now said to be India? What happened to MIT and CalTech and Harvey Mudd and the other insitutes of technology in this country?



Well, 4A, because clearly it's not the fault of the kid who couldn't get in the school, because he's a bright and motivated young man who is most likely in the wrong circumstances. Its not fair at all to say that merely because of his attitude and upbringing, we can't let him in to a prestigous school like MIT while all the affluent kids get in on money. We need to make the tests easy enough so that even the idiots do well.

And, of course, we need to make education corrupt enough that daddy's 70-IQ girl can get into UPenn on her father's wallet and connections, because she just HAS to have that Ivy League name to show for 4 years of drinking, partying, and sucking every dick shoved in her face.

We don't need to mind those hardworking, intelligent individuals who can't shine because tthey're not a minority and they're not wealthy. After all... we all know that they have no way of affecting the financial or demographic look of the school.

[Davian93]

Last I checked those vaunted overseas students still came here in droves for college...at least that's how it was a couple years ago. I used to work with MIT Lincoln Labs and about 80% of the grad students there were foreign born...which made it nearly impossible to get them cleared to work on anything at all Gov't related.

[Uno]

Yeah, but standardized tests are rubbish, anyway. After all, you can guess. I guessed a lot on the math part when I took the GRE, and I got a pretty good score on that section. As I recall, you had four options for every question, and if you had any understanding at all (which I barely did), you could tell that at least one of them (and maybe two) couldn't possibly be right, so you had pretty good odds of guessing the right one, without doing much in the way of calculations at all.

[Weird Harold]

Yeah, but standardized tests are rubbish, anyway. After all, you can guess. I guessed a lot on the math part when I took the GRE, and I got a pretty good score on that section. As I recall, you had four options for every question, and if you had any understanding at all (which I barely did), you could tell that at least one of them (and maybe two) couldn't possibly be right, so you had pretty good odds of guessing the right one, without doing much in the way of calculations at all.
We should go back to this kind of test then:

Source: http://skyways.lib.ks.us/genweb/saline/society/exam.html

EXAMINATION GRADUATION QUESTIONS
OF SALINE COUNTY, KANSAS
April 13, 1895
J.W. Armstrong, County Superintendent.







Examinations at Salina, New Cambria, Gypsum City, Assaria, Falun, Bavaria, and District No. 74 (in Glendale Twp.)

Reading and Penmanship. - The Examination will be oral, and the Penmanship of Applicants will be graded from the manuscripts.

************************
GRAMMAR
(Time, one hour)
1. Give nine rules for the use of Capital Letters.
2. Name the Parts of Speech and define those that have no modifications.
3. Define Verse, Stanza and Paragraph.
4. What are the Principal Parts of a verb? Give Principal Parts of do, lie, lay and run.
5. Define Case. Illustrate each case.
6. What is Punctuation? Give rules for principal marks of Punctuation.
7-10 Write a composition of about 150 words and show therein that you understand the practical use of the rules of grammar.

************************
ARITHMETIC
(Time, 1 ¼ hour)



1. Name and define the Fundamental Rules of Arithmetic.
2. A wagon box is 2 ft. deep, 10 feet long, and 3 ft. wide. How many bushels of wheat will it hold?
3. If a load of wheat weights 3942 lbs., what is it worth at 50 cts. Per bu., deducting 1050 lbs for tare?
4. District No. 33 has a valuation of $35,000. What is the necessary levy to carry on a school seven months at $50 per month, and have $104 for incidentals?
5. Find cost of 6720 lbs. coal at $6.00 per ton.
6. Find the interest of $512.60 for 8 months and 18 days at 7 per cent.
7. What is the cost of 40 boards 12 inches wide and 16 ft. long at $20 per m?
8. Find bank discount on $300 for 90 days (no grace) at 10 per cent.
9. What is the cost of a square farm at $15 per acre, the distance around which is 640 rods?
10. Write a Bank Check, a Promissory Note, and a Receipt.

*************************************
U.S. HISTORY
(Time, 45 minutes)
1. Give the epochs into which U.S. History is divided.
2. Give an account of the discovery of America by Columbus.
3. Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War.
4. Show the territorial growth of the United States.
5. Tell what you can of the history of Kansas.
6. Describe three of the most prominent battles of the Rebellion.
7. Who were the following: Morse, Whtney, Fulton, Bell, Lincoln, Penn, and Howe?
8. Name events connected with the following dates: 1607, 1620, 1800, 1849, and 1865.

*******************************************
ORTHOGRAPHY
(Time, one hour)
1. What is meant by the following: Alphabet, phonetic orthogaphy, etymology, syllabication?
2. What are elementary sounds? How classified?
3. What are the following, and give examples of each: Trigraph, subvocals, diphthong, cognate letters, linguals?
4. Give four substitutes for caret ãuä.
5. Give two rules for spelling words with final ãeä. Name two exceptions under each rule.
6. Give two uses of silent letters in spelling. Illustrate each.
7. Define the following prefixes and use in connection with a word: Bi, dis, mis, pre, semi, post, non, inter, mono, super.
8. Mark diacritically and divide into syllables the following, and name the sign that indicates the sound: Card, ball, mercy, sir, odd, cell, rise, blood, fare, last.
9. Use the following correctly in sentences: Cite, site, sight, fane, fain, feign, vane, vain, vein, raze, raise, rays.
10. Write 10 words frequently mispronounced and indicate pronunciation by use of diacritical marks and by syllabication.

*****************************************
GEOGRAPHY
(Time, one hour)
1. What is climate? Upon what does climate depend?
2. How do you account for the extremes of climate in Kansas?
3. Of what use are rivers? Of what use is the ocean?
4. Describe the mountains of N.A.
5. Name and describe the following: Monrovia, Odessa, Denver, Manitoba, Hecla, Yukon, St. Helena, Juan Fernandez, Aspinwall, and Orinoco.
6. Name and locate the principal trade centers of the U.S.
7. Name all the republics of Europe and give capital of each.
8. Why is the Atlantic Coast colder than the Pacific in the same latitude?
9. Describe the process by which the water of the ocean returns to the sources of rivers.
10. Describe the movements of the earth. Give inclination of the earth.



1. Where are the saliva, gastric juice, and bile secreted? What is the use of each in digestion?
2. How does nutrition reach the circulation?
3. What is the function of the liver? Of the kidneys?
4. How would you stop the flow of blood from an artery in the case of laceration?
5. Give some general directions that you think would be beneficial to preserve the human body in a state of health.

*********************************************

[Mort]

Yeah, but standardized tests are rubbish, anyway. After all, you can guess. I guessed a lot on the math part when I took the GRE, and I got a pretty good score on that section. As I recall, you had four options for every question, and if you had any understanding at all (which I barely did), you could tell that at least one of them (and maybe two) couldn't possibly be right, so you had pretty good odds of guessing the right one, without doing much in the way of calculations at all.

I agree completely!

2. A wagon box is 2 ft. deep, 10 feet long, and 3 ft. wide. How many bushels of wheat will it hold?


I had to check how much a bushel was :) (No I won't do the calculations)

Those tests definetly make sure you can prove what you know, and don't know :)

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Actually, that test doesn't really look that difficult. But then, I paid attention in high school.

[Uno]

The point of the GRE, though, is not to give the graduate program an accurate impression of an applicant's general knowledge, merely to make it easier to process applications.

Your average graduate program gets hundreds of applicants, and admits maybe a dozen new students every semester. The GRE does give an indicator of a person's comptence at the high and low ends of the spectrum. If you've got a really low score, you probably get cut out of the running before your application has even been properly reviewed, and if you've got a really high score, that helps people notice you in the anonymous mass of applicants. For everyone else, it doesn't really matter that much, as the faculty that actually review the applications don't generally care much about standardized test scores.

In other words, the GRE functions as a way of cutting down the applicant pool to a practically manageable size. If you're not cut on the basis of your GRE score, you'll have to get in on the basis of your grades, your writing sample, and all that good stuff, the things that really reflect your overall academic potential. In history, if your writing sample stinks, you're probably not getting in even if you've got a perfect GRE score.

[Birgitte]

Actually, that test doesn't really look that difficult. But then, I paid attention in high school.

... I didn't... (still got A's though... what's up with that?)

[ShadowbaneX]

... I didn't... (still got A's though... what's up with that?)
I think that's the point that they're trying to make. A's no longer have much meaning as they're too easy to get. They've been dumbed down. A straight 'A' student from this year would probably have failed classes from half a century ago.

[Birgitte]

Yeah, that's true. It's kinda sad.

[JSUCamel]

I blame the government. Relaxing standards and introducing idiocy like No Child Left Behind.

I've mentioned this before, but schools have to meet certain goals each year. They have to IMPROVE each year to receive federal funding. Graduation rates have to go up, test scores have to go up, and if they don't, they get screwed over with funding.

As a result, schools are finding ways of fudging test scores, passing students who don't deserve to be passed.

I had a student at my last school, and I complained about him to several other teachers because he was just a fucking idiot and didn't even try to do anything, he just sat there and talked and talked. And the other teachers said "I made a deal with him. I told him I'd give him points for every day he doesn't talk in my class. If he talks, he loses points. He doesn't do the work, I don't care, but so long as he's quiet, the other kids can learn."

Jonathan was passed by these other teachers, not for learning the material, but for keeping his damn mouth shut.

And I'm sad to say, this kind of stuff happens every day. The kids who work hard and apply themselves get A's and B's. The kids who don't work hard and screw around instead pass with low B's and C's. All because a teacher doesn't want to lose her job due to low grades and passing rates.

I personally gave them the grades I felt they deserved. If they got an F, it was because they didn't complete my assignments (which were, sadly, very easy).

[ShadowbaneX]

It's admirable to think that no one can be left behind, but the thing is they're still left behind, they're just changing the definitions rather then actually helping people.

Making funding dependant is very negative and probably is more harmful then helpful...as you pointed out, kids are getting passed to protect jobs and funding, rather then actually showing if they've learned anything or not.

I've long held the opinion that you don't really learn anything in school...most of what I learned, I learned in university. School is just getting enough grades (which are an entity unto themselves these days) to get into such a place.

[Hopper]

Last I checked those vaunted overseas students still came here in droves for college...at least that's how it was a couple years ago. I used to work with MIT Lincoln Labs and about 80% of the grad students there were foreign born...which made it nearly impossible to get them cleared to work on anything at all Gov't related.

I worked at MIT for 8 years and I can tell you that money doesn't get you in. Brains gets you in. Hard work keeps you there. The old saying is that studying at MIT is like drinking from the fire hose of knowledge.

And yes, a significant percentage of the student body comes from out of country to study and they bust their butts to make sure that they get everything out of it that they can.

[Uno]

Yeah, ok, but I teach at a pretty typical American state university, and our best students are pretty good, our average students are pretty average, and our bad students are pretty terrible, and most people in this last group (unless they're really committed to improving themselves) are never going to graduate.

The thing is that the university admits a lot of people who should probably never even have received a high school diploma, knowing full well that these people aren't going to get a degree, but on their path towards realizing that they won't graduate, these kids still pay tuition. We could raise our admission standards, but then we'd get less funding.

The college instructors don't have time to teach these kids things they should actually have learned in high school, and they therefore inevitably struggle to stay afloat in all their classes. We do offer some aid to struggling students, such as the writing center, which teaches people pretty basic writing and composition skills, but, typically, the very worst students don't avail themselves much of those opportunities.

[JSUCamel]

The current school system in America was designed during the Industrial Revolution. The companies wanted workers who were dependable and could follow instructions. The structure of the school systems hasn't changed in that regard in 100 years.

In other words, you're absolutely right. What you learn in K-12 isn't nearly as obvious as what you learn in university. In K-12, you're taught to read, write, add, subtract, memorize and follow instructions.

That's pretty much it. Thirteen years of learning to follow instructions.

Unfortunately, that type of training is becoming obsolete in a lot of ways. (In a lot of ways, it's failing because many people CAN'T follow instructions today.)

[Weird Harold]

I agree completely!



I had to check how much a bushel was :) (No I won't do the calculations)

Those tests definetly make sure you can prove what you know, and don't know :)
If you lived in Salina Kansas in 1895, knowing how big a bushel was and the conversion factor would be a part of everyday life for most students.

In that sense, the test is extremely dated and that makes it even more difficult for modern adults. You also have to consider that, like the TV show "Are You Smarter Than A Fifth Grader" the answers were learned several years in the past for the adults and only several weeks in the past for the students.

Personaly, I hated "essay" tests when I was in school, because I could pass a multiple guess test without even thinking hard.

[Terez]

Actually, that test doesn't really look that difficult. But then, I paid attention in high school.
It's an 8th grade test.

[Weird Harold]

...In K-12, you're taught to read, write, add, subtract, memorize and follow instructions.

That's pretty much it. Thirteen years of learning to follow instructions.

Unfortunately, that type of training is becoming obsolete in a lot of ways. (In a lot of ways, it's failing because many people CAN'T follow instructions today.)

As a product of school system that was just beginning to apply "progressive educational theories" in the 1950's and 1960's I take exception to your characterization of a K-12 education -- for starters, many of my generation never attended Kindergarten and started school with First Grade, so until the mid-70's it was a 1-12 education rather than K-12.

Secondly, Everything I needed to know about being a worker bee in some factory was included in grades 1-6; Junior High/Middle School and high school were for those with aspirations beyond worker bee status. In generations prior to mine -- like the 1895 test -- sixth, seventh, or in rare cases eighth grade were all the mandatory schooling required; my generation is when mandatory schooling was moved up to tenth grade/age 16 -- and high school diplomas were still optional for most jobs.

There was a LOT more to my schooling than memorization and "learning to follow instructions" My schooling prepared me to be a fully functioning, responsible, literate member of society -- can the modern, progressive schools of your generation say the same thing?

In many ways, school is everyone's first "Job" and the habits and expectations they learn from the school administration are generally far more important to their success in life than the content of the curriculim. Today's school system -- at least in America -- is far more tailored for turning out mindless clones without the critical thinking skills needed to wade through the morass of advertising and media "spin" than the schools of 1865-ish through 1960-ish.

[tanaww]

... I didn't... (still got A's though... what's up with that?)

Because "A" is for "Ass Kisser". Right RS?