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CreationEdge
11-23-2010, 02:12 PM
Access to the True Power is a matter of wanting it and the Dark One letting you. NOT black cords. In Prologue to The Eye of the World we saw True Power to heal insanity. The One Power cannot be used to heal insanity. The True Power used at Shayol Ghul will fry you instantly.


So, where's the error with Nynaeve's Healing? RJ, or BS?

Terez
11-23-2010, 02:13 PM
Not necessarily either. That report was paraphrased; there have been some other questions to arise from that particular report, in fact.

frenchie
11-23-2010, 02:58 PM
Plus Nynaeve didn't heal the insanity directly. She removed the taint from the brain via Spririt, and then healed the damaged brain. To me, that is a clear differance, as when she laid the Healing weave directly on the taint, it just soaked up the Healing.

Grig
11-23-2010, 03:15 PM
There's a confounding factor that tends to be ignored when this comes up. LTT had killed his entire family. DO's taint motivated his actions, but there is ample room for secondary damage (insanity) not directly related to the initial taint (perhaps similar to LTT if the theory about the persona being a way for Rand to vent his feelings). If a person's mind breaks and they create a dumb persona that doesn't remember anything they did (like LTT, oblivious and not recognizing the bodies around his house) while under the effect of the taint, it would seem like that insanity would not be healed simply by removing the taint like Nynaeve did in ToM (and could be the type of insanity RJ was saying was not curable with the OP -- it's more the mind breaking than some compulsion-style influence on the brain).

CreationEdge
11-23-2010, 03:25 PM
It just makes me wonder.

Perhaps, at the time of the quote, insanity COULDN'T be healed, because no one in Randland has ever had the ability necessary. RJ could have changed his mind, easily enough.


Just hoping it isn't something like in the RPG where the Aes Sedai characters can learn how to Fly. RJ says no, someone else does it anyway.

amazinglarry
11-23-2010, 03:38 PM
It's possible that RJ meant that general (taint-independent) psychological illnesses cannot be healed. It depends whether the person who asked the question asked directly about taint-induced madness or failed to specify this.

It's also possible that Jordan said "no" because the weave Nynaeve uses is not technically Healing. Jordan could've simply meant that Healing weaves do not work on mental illness.

And of course it's possible that he changed his mind for plot purposes (i.e. to give the Asha'man hope beyond simply seeing themselves as soldiers). Maybe he thought about it for a while and realized that this could be a powerful moment in the series.

amazinglarry

CreationEdge
11-23-2010, 03:40 PM
All in all, the last suggestion seems most likely, for whatever reason.

And since there doesn't seem to be any other talk from RJ or BS on the matter... Work for me.

GonzoTheGreat
11-23-2010, 04:31 PM
And perhaps the "can not be Healed" should be interpreted as "can not now, at this moment, be Healed".

Then there is the possibility that all that Nynaeve did was remove some of the symptoms. That would still leave those she treats with imbalances in their mental system, not completely healed, but they would be better off than they were.
Compare with Rand's burned off hand: after Healing the wound was closed, he did not suffer from sixth degree burns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degree_burns#By_degree) anymore, but his hand was still gone.

Terez
11-23-2010, 05:45 PM
Another thing worth pointing out is that Naeff wasn't actually insane. Lews Therin was insane. Essentially it's a legal term that means the person in question is incapable of distinguishing between right and wrong.

metaphor
11-23-2010, 05:52 PM
Nynaeve didn't actually heal insanity though. She herself noted it.
She removed the taint on the brain that was causing the insanity.

Terez
11-23-2010, 05:54 PM
Which was not insanity, really.

Belazamon
11-23-2010, 06:06 PM
Another thing worth pointing out is that Naeff wasn't actually insane. Lews Therin was insane. Essentially it's a legal term that means the person in question is incapable of distinguishing between right and wrong.
And if Naeff had attacked and killed someone who had been standing in the shadows, and insisted upon his arrest that it was a Fade that had been about to attack him?

Just because he hadn't yet landed himself in said legal situation, doesn't mean he wasn't insane.

Terez
11-23-2010, 06:08 PM
And if Naeff had attacked and killed someone who had been standing in the shadows, and insisted upon his arrest that it was a Fade that had been about to attack him?

Just because he hadn't yet landed himself in said legal situation, doesn't mean he wasn't insane.
He was certainly on his way there, but he was not anywhere close to being as unaware of reality as Lews Therin.

Belazamon
11-23-2010, 06:11 PM
He was certainly on his way there, but he was not anywhere close to being as unaware of reality as Lews Therin.
I don't disagree with you. But you were referring to "insane v. not insane," not to differing levels of insanity.

Terez
11-23-2010, 06:18 PM
I don't disagree with you. But you were referring to "insane v. not insane," not to differing levels of insanity.
Whether or not Naeff is insane is debatable, and with no evidence for anything being wonky about his moral compass, then it is most logical to assume that he was not, in fact, insane. With Lews Therin, there is no room for argument.

metaphor
11-23-2010, 06:20 PM
Which was not insanity, really.

He was insane, but Nynaeve didn't heal it. She removed something from the brain. Like if someone had a nail stuck in their skull and a surgeon removed it.

A natural insanity would be caused by an hormonal imbalance in the brain a malfunction in the connections between braincells, or I don't know what.
That sort of thing was impossible to heal with the power.
Nynaeve may learn to do it, or she may not, but what she did to Neaff was different.

And perhaps what Ishamael did to LTT was something similar. He used the True Power to neutralize the effects of the taint on LTT's brain.

Belazamon
11-23-2010, 09:54 PM
Whether or not Naeff is insane is debatable
Semantically, perhaps. Realistically, no.

and with no evidence for anything being wonky about his moral compass, then it is most logical to assume that he was not, in fact, insane.
From a legal standpoint, perhaps. Again, realistically, no.

With Lews Therin, there is no room for argument.
On that, we can agree.

Caveatar
11-23-2010, 09:58 PM
So, where's the error with Nynaeve's Healing? RJ, or BS?

Insanity can't be healed?

Well damn. There goes my last hope for myself and other rabid fans of WOT and Theoryland. :D

Terez
11-23-2010, 09:59 PM
I don't think it can realistically be argued that he is insane. Mad, yes, but not insane. I think part of his point with the taint madness was to draw a clear line; likely he was of the conservative camp when it came to using the insanity plea. Lews Therin had an excuse; Naeff wouldn't, really. The scenario you describe seems like more of a bad luck accident than anything else; there aren't generally people hiding out in the shadows where he sees the Fades.

Belazamon
11-23-2010, 10:17 PM
I don't think it can realistically be argued that he is insane. Mad, yes, but not insane.
It appears that this is, indeed, nothing but a semantic argument. As such, I'm not sure there's much point in continuing to argue it, so I'll bow out of that aspect.

Perhaps it would be wisest to look at the Taint acting as a variant of "brain injury," wherein there is pressure building up on various (and often differing) parts of the brain which, eventually, will lead to permanent brain damage if left untreated. If the pressure is relieved in time, the brain will be able to "bounce back" and heal itself more or less completely.

Terez
11-23-2010, 10:21 PM
It appears that this is, indeed, nothing but a semantic argument.
That all depends on whether or not RJ saw it as such; I think the evidence shows that he didn't, though the people of his world often decline to recognize the distinction.

CreationEdge
12-01-2010, 10:24 AM
Access to the True Power is a matter of wanting it and the Dark One letting you. NOT black cords. In Prologue to The Eye of the World we saw True Power to heal insanity. The One Power cannot be used to heal insanity. The True Power used at Shayol Ghul will fry you instantly.

That insanity is a just legal term is a myth.
The information put out there to explain that for a person to be certifiably insane means they must be legally labeled as such by the courts, not by the medical community. There is no medical diagnosis called "insanity."

However, there is an English noun "insanity" and it means a deranged, or mad, state of mind. Crazy. Schizo. Nutty.


This has been turned into a semantic argument for no reason. The United States Legal System does not have "dibs" on the word insanity. The only reason for the clarification put out there that a person can't be certifiably insane MEDICALLY is to help remove stigma associated with mental health services. They don't call you insane, in medicine.


I don't see then how you can doubt that Naeff was insane. He was clearly mad. He "knew" he was being watching by invisible Fages from the shadows. But it wasn't happening. Delusional paranoia. Bonkers.

Rand al'Thor might be 2nd Degree Black Belt Crazy, and Naeff only on a Yellow Belt, but both of them had still taken lessons at Dojo Cuckoo.

The RJ quote was obviously referring to the madness caused by the taint. LTT was insane. He'd killed all of his kin. Then he was TP Healed. RJ SAID the insanity itself was healed. Not a cleansing of the taint. Not removing a nail that's inflicting damage.

Naeff was insane. He was imagining things that he "knew" were real. Then he was OP healed. His symptoms of insanity are gone.

I take this in light of RJ's quote. He was definitely seeming to imply that the OP could not do to LTT what the TP did. That all the surviving Aes Sedai could not use the OP to give such moments of clarity to the men causing the Breaking.

Yet, Nynaeve did something which, whatever it was, healed that which could not before be healed. Madness caused by the Taint. Which is what RJ was saying in his quote could not be done.

GonzoTheGreat
12-01-2010, 10:36 AM
Perhaps Nynaeve used the TP without knowing it?

CreationEdge
12-01-2010, 10:56 AM
I should have known! Anger leads Hate. Hate leads to Fear. Fear leads to the Dark Side!

We should have seen in coming, 50 braid tugs into it all!

kasper11
12-01-2010, 12:32 PM
Access to the True Power is a matter of wanting it and the Dark One letting you. NOT black cords. In Prologue to The Eye of the World we saw True Power to heal insanity. The One Power cannot be used to heal insanity. The True Power used at Shayol Ghul will fry you instantly.

So, where's the error with Nynaeve's Healing? RJ, or BS?

Was that quote from before or after Saidin was cleansed?

Even in the prologue, Ishmael states that the Aes Sedai could have temporarily healed LTT's madness. (Sorry, no direct quote, don't have the book in front of me, but it was something like "Too bad there are none of your sister's around. My healing is more painful").

The difference could very well be that, with the taint removed, the effects can now be permanent.

Belazamon
12-01-2010, 03:15 PM
Even in the prologue, Ishmael states that the Aes Sedai could have temporarily healed LTT's madness. (Sorry, no direct quote, don't have the book in front of me, but it was something like "Too bad there are none of your sister's around. My healing is more painful").
Of course, Nynaeve is rather well-known for doing things that nobody believed were possible in the Age of Legends. Just, y'know, something to keep in mind.

nameless
12-01-2010, 06:00 PM
There's a difference between psychiatric ailments and neurological ailments. Perhaps the taint qualifies as a neurological problem and that's why the Power worked on it. The description made it sound as if the taint were causing brain damage. After Nynaeve figured out how to remove the taint, the brain itself responded to normal Healing.

yasiru89
12-02-2010, 02:53 AM
I tend to agree on the idea that Naeff wasn't actually insane. The taint doesn't seem to be a magical insta-insanity device. Rather, it seems to blanket each individual's mind in a particular way so that what they perceive (by far the most prominent form, as with Naeff) and think (this one is tricky- but perhaps it impedes or deactivates certain cognitive processes- might explain Fedwyn) and feel is twisted. Keep at it long enough and the person becomes accustomed, and thus the mind is broken. Lews Therin suffered a jolt from realising what he had done to Ilyena in a moment of loss of lucidity and I think that's what turned him insane- the manifestation of which was Rand's split personality (in that he chose to distance himself from what he had done- the denial was his, not due to the taint).

Even if this isn't the case, RJ might have been commenting on exactly what Rand commented on when he realised what Nynaeve was on about.

morat'corlm
12-02-2010, 04:06 AM
Rather, it seems to blanket each individual's mind in a particular way so that what they perceive (by far the most prominent form, as with Naeff) and think (this one is tricky- but perhaps it impedes or deactivates certain cognitive processes- might explain Fedwyn) and feel is twisted.This is practically the definition of psychosis, i.e. insanity.

Perhaps your objection is that the neurological source of the psychological insanity is not internal to the brain but caused by the web of blackness around it, but the effect, the psychological insanity, is quite real and seems pretty ordinary.

CreationEdge
12-02-2010, 07:59 AM
You know, I like the varying explanations and theories out there on this topic. In seems more productive than a lot of the theory "banter" that I've been reading.


Removing the taint then healing the brain sounds nice.


But, to answer someone's question: The quote, I'm assuming, was given before the Cleansing, but I can't find a date.

Terez
12-02-2010, 01:02 PM
Did you copy it from somewhere else? Check the link in my sig, which contains the interview database. It should be in the One Power category. Every quote has a date, with the exception of the rare few unsourced quotes from Thus Spake the Creator.

CreationEdge
12-02-2010, 07:12 PM
I pulled it from here because it was the easiest for me to find, and I haven't looked elsewhere.

There's no date with it.

http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/03/plots-characters-and-wheel-of-time.html

yasiru89
12-02-2010, 08:20 PM
This is practically the definition of psychosis, i.e. insanity.

Perhaps your objection is that the neurological source of the psychological insanity is not internal to the brain but caused by the web of blackness around it, but the effect, the psychological insanity, is quite real and seems pretty ordinary.
That is part of the psychologist's definition because for the sake of diagnosis there need to be certain observable markers- such as impaired functionality in society. However, we see through Nynaeve's delving that the taint isn't something that merges with the mind, but, remaining its own entity, drives into it to render 'insane' (on the definition of necessity you've adopted) who is affected. Nothing to say whether the mind is whole or not beyond that. For instance, even had Nynaeve removed the black web from Rand much earlier, I suspect he would still have been a broken man, and the split personality would likely not have gone away since it was bred of his own denial of self.