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jana
11-23-2010, 11:11 PM
Did anyone else find this ridiculous?

Nynaeve frowned. "No. Should I?"

Lying or truthful? Cadsuane hated not being able to trust the words of someone who called herself an Aes Sedai. But Nynaeve al'Meara had never held the Oath Rod.

Those eyes looked genuinely confused. Nynaeve should be trustworthy; she prided herself on her honesty. Unless that was a front. Unless she was Black.

No one with half a brain would wonder this. She was at the cleansing with Nynaeve. And Cadsuane has more than half a brain. She's thought of Nynaeve as dangerous before, but only because she didn't know whether she was wearing the ter'angreal jewelry to defend against Rand, the Asha'man, or Cadsuane herself. I guess I could be wrong but I don't think she was considering that Nynaeve was a darkfriend.


She sighed. "Can someone bring us some tea?"

Bera was actually the one who went to fetch it, though Cadsuane hadn't taken any care to cultivate influence with the woman. Well, a reputation was worth something, it appeared.

And this annoys me as well. Cadsuane asks whoever the heck she wants to pour tea to pour the flipping tea.

Squocka
11-23-2010, 11:33 PM
She was pretty pissed off at the time so i guess not thinking too straight

jana
11-23-2010, 11:57 PM
I went back and read the spanking scene from TGS and decided I need to chill out 'cause that more than made up for it =oP

GonzoTheGreat
11-24-2010, 04:13 AM
No one with half a brain would wonder this. She was at the cleansing with Nynaeve. And Cadsuane has more than half a brain. She's thought of Nynaeve as dangerous before, but only because she didn't know whether she was wearing the ter'angreal jewelry to defend against Rand, the Asha'man, or Cadsuane herself. I guess I could be wrong but I don't think she was considering that Nynaeve was a darkfriend.Cadsuane had the problem that her entire approach to Rand had been wrong from the start. That meant that she knew (at least subconsciously) that her judgment was not very trustworthy in these matters. Thus, "knowing that Nynaeve is not a Darkfriend" is not something she could entirely trust either.

Kalli
11-24-2010, 06:42 AM
No one with half a brain would wonder this. She was at the cleansing with Nynaeve. And Cadsuane has more than half a brain. She's thought of Nynaeve as dangerous before, but only because she didn't know whether she was wearing the ter'angreal jewelry to defend against Rand, the Asha'man, or Cadsuane herself. I guess I could be wrong but I don't think she was considering that Nynaeve was a darkfriend.


Well, Cadsuane trusted Elza and she was at the cleansing too. She likely considered herself an excellent judge of character so this probably shook her pretty hard.

WinespringBrother
11-24-2010, 07:40 AM
Both Verin and Elza held the oath rod, fwiw. They were at the Cleansing as well, and yet not as trustworthy as Cadsuane thought.

That POV does help show that Cadsuane herself is not Black, if that hasn't already been shown. Not definitively, but it goes a long way. A Black sister's logic would not equate not holding the Oath Rod with being trustworthy. And Verin did miss a few names in her Who's Who of the Black Ajah.

morat'corlm
11-24-2010, 04:50 PM
Doesn't thinking her possibly being "Black" rather than just "a Darkfriend" presuppose that she's Aes Sedai?

I wonder if that was deliberate or not.

CaraighanMaconar
11-24-2010, 06:06 PM
Doesn't thinking her possibly being "Black" rather than just "a Darkfriend" presuppose that she's Aes Sedai?

I wonder if that was deliberate or not.

I'm not sure if one has to be Aes Sedai to be Black.

pg 607 TGS

There were names of Accepted and novices as well. The book noted that those had probably been Darkfriends before they joined the White Tower, as the Black Ajah did not recruit from any except Aes Sedai. It referred her to an earlier page for a longer explanation, but Egwene continued down the list of sisters.

It says they don't recruit from any but Aes Sedai, but this seems to leave open the notion that a Darkfriend who joins the WT might seek them out and join, before they become Aes Sedai.

Of course, Cadsuane isn't privy to that information either way - whether she'd assume that one had to be Aes Sedai first to join the Black I'd think is probably reasonable, but I don't know I'd say it with certainty.

C.

WinespringBrother
11-25-2010, 09:25 AM
We can't trust the internal vocabulary of darkfriends, at least as shown on screen, since Verin thought of Graendal as a Forsaken, rather than a Chosen.

Winter's Heart CHAPTER: 35 - With the Choedan Kal

Verin frowned at the apparition making its way through the trees off to her left. She could think of no other term for a woman walking through the forest in gems and a gown that shifted through every color from black to white and sometimes even turned transparent! She was not hurrying, but she was heading toward the hill where Rand was. And unless Verin was very much mistaken, she was one of the Forsaken.

But logic patterns may be more reliable. They show careful thought based on intelligence guided by experience.

GonzoTheGreat
11-25-2010, 10:26 AM
But logic patterns may be more reliable. They show careful thought based on intelligence guided by experience.From an Aes Sedai? :eek:

sleepinghour
11-25-2010, 10:53 AM
I guess I could be wrong but I don't think she was considering that Nynaeve was a darkfriend.


I wondered about that too, but at least Cadsuane recognized that she was being too paranoid and accepted Nynaeve's words as truth.

I don't expect we'll get to see this in AMoL, but it would've been interesting to see Cadsuane retire into the Kin. Or maybe Egwene and the Hall can be convinced that the Oath Rod needs to be scrapped. Cadsuane and Romanda are both approaching 300 and won't live much longer as long as they remain bound to the Oaths.

So maybe the point of that scene was for Cadsuane to (grudgingly) acknowledge that the Oaths are not the only way an Aes Sedai can prove herself trustworthy. In Winter's Heart, Cadsuane thinks: "...she was not willing to allow Nynaeve that title [Aes Sedai] until she took the Three Oaths." As progressive as Cadsuane can be, she still believes that the Oaths are what make an Aes Sedai.

What Cadsuane and other Aes Sedai have yet to realize is that a far better way to gain people's trust is by showing they deserve it. It's pretty telling that even with the Oaths, almost nobody trusts Aes Sedai...while Rand trusted Nynaeve even at the height of his paranoia and insanity. (If you can't trust a person who is trusted by paranoid madmen, who can you trust?)

GonzoTheGreat
11-25-2010, 10:55 AM
If you can't trust a person who is trusted by paranoid madmen, who can you trust?Alviarin?

Khoram
11-25-2010, 11:18 AM
Alviarin?

Elaid... wait, sorry. Suffa?

Rand al'Fain
11-25-2010, 11:18 AM
We can't trust the internal vocabulary of darkfriends, at least as shown on screen, since Verin thought of Graendal as a Forsaken, rather than a Chosen.What are you talking about? Verin was Agent 007 of the side of the Light and was undercover and using top secret weapons and spying against the Russian Black Ajah!

Belazamon
11-26-2010, 12:30 AM
What are you talking about? Verin was Agent 007 of the side of the Light and was undercover and using top secret weapons and spying against the Russian Black Ajah!
They weren't Russian. Communism was just a red herring.

Rand al'Fain
11-26-2010, 02:44 AM
They weren't Russian. Communism was just a red herring.

What are they then, French?

Jonai
11-26-2010, 02:52 AM
What are they then, French?

They were teetotalers. You can't trust those types.