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Terez
11-25-2010, 01:04 PM
A lot of people seem confused by what the construct theory actually says. I think that most of these people will remain 'confused' because they were invested in the 'real' theory before TGS and they hold on like stubborn mules. Some like Gonzo hold on simply because they dislike anything to do with psychology, preferring the supernatural explanations that are conveniently available in fantasy fiction.

In any case, here goes. The main problem that the constructors have always had with the real'ers is the assumption that the 'voice' was Lews Therin, and that Lews Therin had his own thoughts and feelings which Rand was not privy to, and that when Rand wasn't hearing Lews Therin's voice, that he was off in a corner of Rand's brain somewhere, sulking and waiting for the next opportunity to take over.

We never felt like the voice was truly representative of Lews Therin, partly because we believed that Rand was, in fact, Lews Therin, but also partly because the 'voice' never truly represented Lews Therin. Most often, the memories came directly to Rand - he even said straight out in KOD that the voice seldom shared information with him. The voice whined about Ilyena. Because Lews Therin, the murdering madman, had killed Ilyena, not Rand. The 'voice' noticed the gray man in LOC, the 'other one' at least twice before Rand figured it out, and the weirdness of the Power around Ebou Dar in TPOD. The voice expressed Rand's desire to kill Taim and his cronies, partly because Rand confused his mistrust for them as a symptom of his encroaching madness.

Clearly, the 'voice' is a psychological defense mechanism. Rand's motives are spelled out for us very, very clearly - whenever he has a thought that originates from Lews Therin's memories, he nearly has a fit trying to convince himself that he is Rand al'Thor! Not Lews Therin Telamon!

But the truth is that Rand is Lews Therin Telamon, and always was. He says so in TGS, so everyone is in agreement on that now. Sure, there are different personalities involved, but both Rand's and Lews Therin's personalities were present in Rand long before the integration. The voice did not tell Rand how to draw. Rand just knew. The voice did not tell Rand to hum and thumb his earlobe when there were pretty women around. Rand just did it. It came naturally to him because he was Lews Therin, and he was beginning to remember.

But he denied it, and therefore cultivated and maintained the illusion that Lews Therin was, in fact, another man. We now know this to be false, though we should have known it before since Rand is Lews Therin reborn. The 'real' theory always amounted to 'yes, we know they are the same soul, but that really is Lews Therin talking to Rand'.

But it wasn't. It was Rand talking to himself. The 'voice' was not Lews Therin - Rand was Lews Therin. The 'voice' was something else altogether, despite the fact that Rand tried so hard to pretend that it was Lews Therin. It gave him the ability to pretend that Lews Therin was not himself.

Always central to the construct argument was the disappearance of Lews Therin near the end of ACOS. Cadsuane told Rand that men who channel tainted saidin hear voices. She claimed it was evidence of the madness. At that point, Rand assumes that there are two options:

1. Lews Therin is completely a figment of his imagination, and a result of his madness.

2. Lews Therin is real, but is another man inside his head talking to him.

Since 1 is clearly not true - the memories are very real - Rand decides that 2 must be true. But he never seems to consider:

3. Rand is Lews Therin. The 'voice' is a figment of his imagination and a result of his motives and his madness.

But obviously the episode with Cadsuane shook him, because the 'voice' disappeared. Before Cadsuane, it was Rand's method of disassociation, but he questioned that when she pointed out that only madmen hear other men's voices in their heads. So, no voice. Rand proceeds to kill Sammael and link his soul to Moridin's.

Skip to TPOD. Lews Therin is still gone. Rand is in Altara fighting the Seanchan, and Taim sends a bunch of Asha'man with his cronies in charge. They have fancy new titles, and they act just like him, if a bit less mature.

Rand wants to kill them. He has good reason, but he feels he cannot afford to face those good reasons just yet. He has to trust Taim. He's been trying to convince himself of that since LOC. So, Lews Therin, the murdering madman, comes back to talk about killing Torval:

TITLE - The Path of Daggers
CHAPTER:14 - Floating Like Snow

"I said leave them alone!" Rand slapped the tabletop, hard, and Hopwil jumped in surprise. Dashiva frowned with irritation before hurriedly smoothing it over, but Rand was not interested in Dashiva’s moods. By chance – he was sure it was chance – his hand had come down on the Dragon Scepter. His arm trembled with the desire to take it up and stab Torval through the heart. No need for Lews Therin at all. "The Asha’man are a weapon to be aimed where I say, not to flutter around like hens every time Taim gets frightened over a handful of Aes Sedai having dinner at the same inn. If I must, I can come back to make myself clearer."

...

"Speak to no one," Rand finished softly, gripping Narishma’s arm hard. "And don’t fail me. Not by a hair."

"I won’t fail," Narishma said, unblinking. With a quick salute, he was gone, too.

Dangerous, a voice whispered in Rand’s head. Oh, yes, very dangerous, maybe too dangerous. But it might work; it might. In any event, you must kill Torval now. You must.

Weiramon entered the council tent, shouldering aside Gregorin and Tolmeran, trying to shoulder aside Rosana and Semaradrid, the lot of them eager to tell Rand that the men in the trees had decided wisely after all. They found him laughing till tears rolled down his face. Lews Therin had come back. Or else he really was mad already. Either way, it was reason to laugh.
Because of Lews Therin's disappearance and return, it is impossible to deny that Rand used the voice as a defense mechanism. It is the only explanation that fits the evidence without making unneeded assumptions, and it just so happens to fit the rest of the evidence in the series as well.

Part of what helped Rand to maintain the illusion that Lews Therin was 'real' and trying to take over was in the fact that there were some times when this appeared to be true, while things actually had a simpler explanation.

1. The simple thoughts that become known as the 'voice' are just thoughts that Rand has based on the memories. He tries to disassociate himself from them.

2. Lews Therin appears to try to take over in Tel'aran'rhiod as he's fighting Rahvin. The simpler explanation is that Rand was tapping Lews Therin's memories for knowledge of how to fight the dangers of Tel'aran'rhiod; it was only natural that he used Lews Therin's features to fight the fading (which might have been caused in the first place by Rand denying an essential part of himself). At that point, it became an internal struggle - instinct over his current motives to disassociate himself from his past life identity.

3. Lews Therin appears to try to break the seal Taim gives him. This can be easily explained by the fact that Rand had never handled an unbroken seal before, and had never felt the Dark One trying to break through them. Elayne said it felt filthy and evil. It can also be explained partly by the immense guilt that Rand has over the way he botched it the last time, and the suicidal tendencies that come with it. Lews Therin wanted to break the seals so that he could 'die forever'.

4. Lews Therin appears to take the Power from Rand at the farm. This is easily explained by Rand's mistrust of Taim, which he was trying to ignore.

A more natural example of this is at the Battle of Cairhien, when Rand becomes so delirious that he can't suppress the memories any more. He talks about Sammael as if he were Lews Therin. Which, of course, he was. It just took him several more books to come to grips with the fact.

The later examples of Lews Therin 'taking over' are a bit muddied because of the link with Moridin. Clearly, Rand feels like he is most vulnerable when he is seizing saidin, but he is confusing 'Lews Therin' with Moridin. Rand is vulnerable to Moridin when he is seizing saidin. And it just so happens that the knowledge Rand needs to fight Moridin is in Lews Therin's memories. At Algarin's, it was convenient for Rand to let Lews Therin 'take over', because this is the guy that knows what he's doing. But he still continues to resist, separating his control over the Power from his control over his hands, for example.

In short, the 'voice' helped Rand to stay relatively sane from TFOH to TGS because he was not ready to face the fact that it was really him who killed Ilyena and began the Breaking of the World. But the taint madness was probably necessary to maintain that illusion.

It would have been different, most likely, for those poor patients of Graendal back in the Age of Legends. They had no way of confirming that those memories were real, other than perhaps histories (which is probably how Graendal determined they were real). They had no people running around that they remember from their past lives, like Rand does with the Forsaken. And Rand has histories to confirm his memories as well, and his past deeds are more notorious than anyone else's by far. It should have been impossible for Rand to deny that those memories were his own because he knew before he realized where they were coming from that he was Lews Therin reborn; he just never faced the truth until TGS. This is where the taint madness probably had to help maintain the illusion; a man must be mad to deny something so obvious.

The result was pretty convincing, however. We only got information about the 'voice' from Rand's POV, so it was always filtered through his perceptions, which were of course faulty. Therefore, most people believed that the 'voice' really was Lews Therin until TGS. Now, most people can see the construct theory right off because it is no longer so counterintuitive. Rand was Lews Therin all along. Therefore, the 'voice' was not. Or at least, it was only to the same extent that it was Rand. Because Rand=Lews Therin.

Now that Rand is no longer trying to deny the fact, his brain is warded from the taint madness. Clearly, Rand's acceptance of the truth had to come first - he started to face the truth before he even tried to kill Tam, but of course trying to kill Tam was the breaking point:

TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 47 - The One He Lost

What am I DOING? Rand thought again.

No more than I've done before, Lews Therin whispered.

Tam continued to stare at him, face shadowed by the night.

Oh, Light, Rand thought with terror, shock and rage. I am doing it again. I am a monster.

Still holding tenuously to saidin, Rand wove a gateway to Ebou Dar, then ducked through, fleeing from the horror in Tam's eyes.
When Rand said 'I am doing it again,' he is admitting that he did it in the first place. That is the beginning of the end of the 'voice' of Lews Therin.

After Rand faced that truth, he was in the same situation as he was when he created Dragonmount in the first place. He wanted to die. Thought he deserved it. Thought he would do a better job this time and just destroy everything so that he didn't have to be reborn ever again.

Brandon said that what happened on Dragonmount was partly - only partly - a Pattern Level Event. I think that Rand had to face the truth about Lews Therin and also face the suicidal madness that came with those memories before his brain could be warded from the taint. It fits with the assumption that the taint madness was necessary to keep Rand going until he was ready to face that mountain of guilt. The symbology speaks volumes.

But in a way, Rand's healing was similar to Naeff's Healing. Before Nynaeve removed the taint from his brain, he believed that those Fades were real. Lews Therin was always real in that he was a part of Rand, but the 'voice' was not real. It was a psychological defense mechanism, and later, a true symptom of his madness.

dominominic
11-25-2010, 01:14 PM
Wait a minute, do some people still think they're two separate people, one existing in the other's mind somehow?

Terez
11-25-2010, 01:15 PM
I'm not really sure what they believe any more. Some of them have tried to say that they never believed that, but I went and got quotes from old threads to prove that they, in fact, had believed that. But their arguments don't make any more sense now than they ever did, that's for sure.

Anaiya Sedai
11-25-2010, 02:29 PM
T, that's one big nutshell :D

Sarevok
11-25-2010, 03:05 PM
T, that's one big nutshell :D

You should have a look at the original theory. :p

Terez
11-25-2010, 04:34 PM
T, that's one big nutshell :D
You should have a look at the original theory. :p
Meh, it's a subject that often suffers from oversimplification. That's part of the problem.

TankSpill
11-26-2010, 09:57 AM
Yeah, from what I've seen, a lot of people are arguing one side or the other without actually knowing what the sides are, so Terez's post should help out with that (if they bother to read it all the way through).

GonzoTheGreat
11-26-2010, 10:26 AM
The 'voice' gave Rand the information he needed to figure out when he could break free at Dumai's Wells:
Soft, Lews Therin said, panting. Because they are there. Sustaining the buffer. Hard when they knot. Nothing to be done when they are soft, but I can unravel the web if they knot it. With time. He paused so long Rand thought he was gone again, then he whispered, Are you real? And then he really was gone.
And, shortly thereafter, there's this gem:
Rand could not have explained what he did next, though Lews Therin had explained how; explained between drifting off into his own mad fancies, between towering rages and wailing over his lost Ilyena, between gibbering that he deserved to die and shouting that he would not let them sever him. It was as if he flexed what he had extended through the knot, flexed it as hard as he could. The knot resisted. It trembled. And then it burst. There were only five. The barrier thinned. He could feel it grow less. An invisible wall only five bricks thick now instead of six. The two Aes Sedai would have felt it, too, though they might not understand exactly what had happened, or how. Please, Light, not now. Not yet.If LTT really is Rand in the sense that the Construct theory implies, then LTT should not be able to explain something any better than Rand can.
On the other hand, if LTT is a different persona based on the same soul, then it is quite logical that they would have somewhat different abilties.

In any case, here goes. The main problem that the constructors have always had with the real'ers is the assumption that the 'voice' was Lews Therin, and that Lews Therin had his own thoughts and feelings which Rand was not privy to, and that when Rand wasn't hearing Lews Therin's voice, that he was off in a corner of Rand's brain somewhere, sulking and waiting for the next opportunity to take over.On many occasions, LTT was probably comatose. I'll admit that the difference would be difficult to spot.

Davian93
11-26-2010, 10:53 AM
TLDR ;)




Seriously though, excellent summary of the position, T.

Sodas
11-27-2010, 02:28 AM
The main problem that the constructors have always had with the real'ers is the assumption that the 'voice' was Lews Therin, and that Lews Therin had his own thoughts and feelings which Rand was not privy to, and that when Rand wasn't hearing Lews Therin's voice, that he was off in a corner of Rand's brain somewhere, sulking and waiting for the next opportunity to take over.

Straw men blow over so easy.

but also partly because the 'voice' never truly represented Lews Therin.

That's your opinion, now show some proof of it.

Most often, the memories came directly to Rand - he even said straight out in KOD that the voice seldom shared information with him.

That does not prove the "voice" never represented LTT. It doesn't really prove anything.

More importantly, as Gonzo pointed out, the generalization is poor. There are many memories that did come directly to Rand. Gonzo already gave you two separate quotes from LOC. Here are some more from just TGS just to prove that the Voice did share memories with him.

She tortured an entire city to prove herself, Lews Therin whispered. She has killed a thousand men a thousand different ways to see how their screams would differ from one another. But she rarely lies. Rarely.

The Forsaken's disguise had been disrupted by Cadsuane's ter'angrael, allowing Rand to recognize Semirhage. Or, at least, allowing Lews Therin to recognize her.

Yes, Lews Therin said. We need to stay away from all of them. They refused to help us, you know. Refused! Said my plan was too reckless. That left me with only the Hundred Companions, no women to form a circle. Traitors! This is their fault. But ... but I'm the one who killed Ilyena. Why?

She's right, Lews Therin said suddenly.
She? Rand asked.
The pretty one. With the short hair. She says we need to break the seals. She's right.

Lews Therin! Rand snapped in his mind. What do we do? How did you seal the Bore last time?
It didn't work. Lews Therin whispered. We used saidin, but we touched it to the Dark One. It was the only way! Something has to touch him, something to close the gap, but he was able to taint it. The seal was weak!

Eerily, Rand felt as if he could almost remember those events - not what had happened, but the anger, the desperation, the decision.

Oh, Light, Lews Therin suddenly screamed. That's impossible! We can't use it! Cast it away! That is death we hold, death and betrayal.
It is HIM.

We have no home, Lews Therin whispered. We destroyed it. Burned it away, melted to slag, like sand in a fire.

If Graendal sent the messanger, Lews Therin said suddenly, I'd have never been able to break him. She's too good with Compulsion. Crafty, so crafty.

[/quote=TGS Ch.47]I told them...Lews Therin whispered.
Told them what? Rand demanded.
That the plan would not work, Lews Therin said, voice very soft. That brute force would not contain him. They called my plan brash, but these weapons they created, they were too dangerous. Too frightening. No man should hold such Power...
Rand struggled with the thoughts, the voice, the memories. He couldn't recall much at all of Lews Therin's plan to Seal the Dark One's prison. The Choedan Kal - had they been built for that purpose?[/quote]


So, now that you have no basis for your first assumption, let's continue.

The voice whined about Ilyena. Because Lews Therin, the murdering madman, had killed Ilyena, not Rand.

Lews Therin whining about Ilyena proves what? That Lews Therin is somehow false because he had killed Ilyena, not Rand??

I fail to see any logic to this comment.

The 'voice' noticed the gray man in LOC, the 'other one' at least twice before Rand figured it out, and the weirdness of the Power around Ebou Dar in TPOD.

Yes, because LTT is way more experience in the Power than Rand was at the point.

The voice expressed Rand's desire to kill Taim and his cronies,

Stop. Yes. It did. As LTT later explained, it was because EVERY OTHER MALE CHANNELER IN THE AGE OF LEGENDS BESIDES THE HUNDRED COMPANIONS BETRAYED HIM. I'd say a perspective who had been so utterly betrayed would not have wanted the same thing to occur.

partly because Rand confused his mistrust for them as a symptom of his encroaching madness.

AND here is the JUMP to conclusion.

We already have an explanation for why LTT's Voice would mistrust other male channelers. So there is no need for Rand to have been involved at all.

It's like saying a headache is a symptom of a cold. It could be. It could also be a symptom of a migraine or flu or a bloody brain aneurysm. You don't know. That's YOUR opinion.

Clearly, the 'voice' is a psychological defense mechanism.

Let's put aside the fact that you didn't even finish your first argument with any facts. You didn't prove that Rand never "truly represented LTT." You didn't prove that the memories came to Rand directly, particularly when it comes to the most important thing LTT did, Seal the Bore. You didn't prove that LTT's awareness and experience, or even LTT's mistrust of other Male Asha'man, was out of line for what LTT should have felt like.

The only thing that is clear here, is the fact that you aren't a psychologist and you can't form a logical argument worth 2 cents.

You can't say, just because LTT notices things Rand doesn't, or doesn't trust other Asha'man, that it's a defense mechanism on Rand's part. That's a logical leap that the Construct Theory is making and is unable to back up with any evidence.

If that is the whole of your argument, you have no argument.


Onward,

Rand's motives are spelled out for us very, very clearly - whenever he has a thought that originates from Lews Therin's memories, he nearly has a fit trying to convince himself that he is Rand al'Thor! Not Lews Therin Telamon!

Never speak in absolutes, you only make a fool of yourself. Rand does not always have a "fit trying to convince himself that he is Rand Al'Thor." That's pure hyperbole.

But the truth is that Rand is Lews Therin Telamon, and always was. He says so in TGS, so everyone is in agreement on that now.

By everyone, you mean yourself. Everyone else here pretty much agreed that the "Dragon Reborn" was pretty self evident. And that was only the title of book 3. So congratulations on finally catching up.

Sure, there are different personalities involved, but both Rand's and Lews Therin's personalities were present in Rand long before the integration.

Some, not all. But overall, yes, some personality traits were there. So what?

The voice did not tell Rand how to draw. Rand just knew.

Ok, so you believe drawing is "personality?"

I disagree. Drawing is an ability, but also something you have to train yourself to do.

An example of LTT's personality trait wouldn't be whether or not Rand could draw, but what did he draw.

Poor argument, but go on.

The voice did not tell Rand to hum and thumb his earlobe when there were pretty women around. Rand just did it. It came naturally to him because he was Lews Therin, and he was beginning to remember.

You get a cookie.

But he denied it

Rand denied what, exactly.

The memories? Memories he didn't have? Sorry, you are dead wrong if you think Rand denied memories he didn't have.

The feelings and emotions of LTT? That would conflict with the statement that they came "naturally" to him.

Either Rand denied those feels or they came naturally.

Can't have it both ways.

and therefore cultivated and maintained the illusion[/U] that Lews Therin was, in fact, another man.

I.E. Equating denial with believing Lews Therin was another man.

Don't buy it. Lews Therin may have been the same Man as Rand, but he isn't the same person as Rand. So it's no illusion that Lews Therin has different memories and a different personality from Rand.

Why? Well, as Rand mentioned, because he was raised better.

The 'real' theory always amounted to 'yes, we know they are the same soul, but that really is Lews Therin talking to Rand'.

But it wasn't. It was Rand talking to himself. The 'voice' was not Lews Therin - Rand was Lews Therin.
The 'voice' was something else altogether

Nope. Rand wasn't Lews Therin at that point.

Rand IS Lews Therin now. But before? Rand was Rand, with some LTT sprinkled in.

I'm also disappointed, once again, at the lack of any effort to back up statements. Such as, "Rand was Lews Therin" so therefore Lews Therin wasn't the voice.

Frankly, that's bogus and elementary.

Rand can be the same man as Lews Therin, but still have a different perspective based upon how he was raised.

For instance,
Lews Therin might have been ok with killing a woman.
Rand wouldn't have.

So yes, Rand can have a conversation with LTT because LTT has a different perspective.

So, yes "Rand was talking to himself,"
and if Rand is LTT, then Rand is really talking to LTT.

Love it when the Real theory is proven to be true over and over and over ....

despite the fact that Rand tried so hard to pretend that it was Lews Therin. It gave him the ability to pretend that Lews Therin was not himself.

No proof that Rand ever pretended NOT to be LTT.

So pure speculation, as usual.

But obviously the episode with Cadsuane shook him, because the 'voice' disappeared. Before Cadsuane, it was Rand's method of disassociation, but he questioned that when she pointed out that only madmen hear other men's voices in their heads. So, no voice.

The Voice didn't disappear. Rand purposefully squelched it because he didn't want to hear it.

But it was there, in the background, waiting because the Taint still infected his Brain.

Rand proceeds to kill Sammael and link his soul to Moridin's.

And that has what to do with LTT?

Skip to TPOD. Lews Therin is still gone. Rand is in Altara fighting the Seanchan, and Taim sends a bunch of Asha'man with his cronies in charge. They have fancy new titles, and they act just like him, if a bit less mature.

Rand wants to kill them. He has good reason, but he feels he cannot afford to face those good reasons just yet. He has to trust Taim. He's been trying to convince himself of that since LOC. So, Lews Therin, the murdering madman, comes back to talk about killing Torval.

No, LTT, the man who was betrayed by most of his fellow male Channelers, comes back to AGREE with Rand. It's not that Rand needs an excuse, as you imply, but because his Soul knows it's all happening again.

The problem with your logic is that it's circular. If LTT is a construct, then he HAD to be doing x y and z because Rand is crazy. That's crud.

LTT was always there, just suppressed by Rand consciously because he didn't want to think himself as mad as Cadsuane suggested he could be, but Rand subconsciously realizes that he must not let things happen the same way again. So he stops suppressing the LTT Voice.

Because of Lews Therin's disappearance and return, it is impossible to deny that Rand used the voice as a defense mechanism.

Lol.

LTT is a defense mechanism, from the viewpoint of the Pattern.

It is the only explanation that fits the evidence without making unneeded assumptions,

Lol @ "unneeded assumptions."

I'd call believing Rand created a imaginary voice in his head an unneeded assumption.

How about not needing any assumptions.

Believing that the Taint Infection created the Voice (proven in TOM) and that Rand can and does suppress LTT other times (proven thoughout the books) I can come to the logically conclussion that Rand suppressed LTT after his conversation with Caddy, and then let go again, once he agree with LTT.

and it just so happens to fit the rest of the evidence in the series as well.

In otherwords, it's just my opinion, I hope you take my word for it.


Next,
1. The simple thoughts that become known as the 'voice' are just thoughts that Rand has based on the memories. He tries to disassociate himself from them.

As proven from the start, the Voice accurately reflected the thoughts of LTT in the Age of Legends. They were not in any way noticeably filtered by Rand's so-called mental instability.

So it's easy to point out the conflict here.

"the 'voice' is just thoughts that Rand has based the memories"

versus

"he tries to disassociate himself from them."

which one is it? Either Rand is basing his thoughts on the memories, or he is disassociating them from himself.

Take your pick. Can't have both, because you can't base a thought upon something you don't have.

2. Lews Therin appears to try to take over in Tel'aran'rhiod as he's fighting Rahvin. The simpler explanation is that Rand was tapping Lews Therin's memories for knowledge of how to fight the dangers of Tel'aran'rhiod;

Doesn't work that way. You are what you imagine yourself being. That IS the simple answer.

So "tapping" memories? Hilarious. But false. And extra complicated.

4. Lews Therin appears to take the Power from Rand at the farm. This is easily explained by Rand's mistrust of Taim, which he was trying to ignore.

So he let's the "mad" part of his mind take over? Yeah right.

The simple explanation here is that LTT knows more about battle at that point than Rand, so he needed LTT to win.

So simple, even a Caveman could figure it out. But not Terez.

In short, the 'voice' helped Rand to stay relatively sane from TFOH to TGS

Lol. How can the 'voice' which you are calling a Construct of Madness, keep Rand relatively sane? Even on it's face, that's a contradiction.

because he was not ready to face the fact that it was really him who killed Ilyena and began the Breaking of the World.

He knew he was the Dragon Reborn. That's book 3.

Sad that you actually use that over and over again as an excuse to say Rand couldn't accept who he was.

But the taint madness was probably necessary to maintain that illusion.

No, it was the only thing that maintained the Voice.

Rand had nothing to do with the creation of the Voice.

Rand was Lews Therin all along. Therefore, the 'voice' was not.

2nd time you repeated this false dichotomy.

Now that Rand is no longer trying to deny the fact, his brain is warded from the taint madness.

And here we go again. no proof. pure speculation.

There is NO proof that something that Rand did consciously, permanently fixed something he supposedly created unconsciously, with the help of something outside his control.

The most likely answer is that,
Rand realized he needed to heal his own Madness if he was going to leave the World better this time. So he did. So simple.

Clearly, Rand's acceptance of the truth had to come first

Your opinion. Rand could have equally realized he needed to Heal his Madness, or else.

- he started to face the truth before he even tried to kill Tam, but of course trying to kill Tam was the breaking point:

And yet Rand says, I'm doing it again. Proof that Rand already realized he was LTT.

*yawn*

When Rand said 'I am doing it again,' he is admitting that he did it in the first place. That is the beginning of the end of the 'voice' of Lews Therin.

More like proof that he already knew he was LTT.

So much for that revelation happening on Dragonmount.

But in a way, Rand's healing was similar to Naeff's Healing. Before Nynaeve removed the taint from his brain, he believed that those Fades were real. Lews Therin was always real in that he was a part of Rand, but the 'voice' was not real.

No, because the 'voice' is now merged with Rand's own internal 'voice.' So it isn't really gone. It's now fully part of "Rand."

From Callandor's original Construct Theory post
"1. A personality is a summation of memories. If Rand had Lews Therin's entire life of memories in his head, I would agree he has his personality. "

Rand now proves to have Lews Therin's entire life of memories in his head. You say he denies them, but that they were there the whole time. Either way, it proves that Rand has LTT's entire life's memories in his head the whole time, and that means he had Lews Therin's whole personality as well.

/construct

Jokeslayer
11-27-2010, 05:13 AM
TLDR

You were saying?

Terez
11-27-2010, 11:31 AM
If LTT really is Rand in the sense that the Construct theory implies, then LTT should not be able to explain something any better than Rand can.
Indeed. Rand's delusional about it - often he figures it out directly, but sometimes he pretends that Lews Therin has the answer. Your logic is faulty because it rests on the assumption that they are in fact separate. Which they are not.

GonzoTheGreat
11-27-2010, 12:05 PM
Indeed. Rand's delusional about it - often he figures it out directly, but sometimes he pretends that Lews Therin has the answer. Your logic is faulty because it rests on the assumption that they are in fact separate. Which they are not.Please explain to me how this is not a case of begging the question (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question)?

TankSpill
11-27-2010, 12:09 PM
The Voice didn't disappear. Rand purposefully squelched it because he didn't want to hear it.

But it was there, in the background, waiting because the Taint still infected his Brain.

Most of your argument is well put together (besides the obvious snarling between you and Terez), but this quote is pure speculation (and perhaps even plain false, if you go by the text of the book). Rand even begs Lews Therin to speak with him, and calls upon the voices multiple times while it is missing, asking for it to come back. You may be arguing that it's all subconscious, but once again, speculation, as Rand definitely wants the voice to speak with him after his encounter with Cadsuane.

Davian93
11-27-2010, 01:00 PM
The biggest proof for me when it comes to Construct Theory is the emotional aspect. Rand gets colder and colder while LTT rages inside of him. It was a huge red flag from the start and the Realers ignored it.

Terez
11-27-2010, 01:06 PM
Please explain to me how this is not a case of begging the question (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question)?
1. You made the illogical leap in basing your assertion on your opinion rather than on a fact.

2. I at least have quotes proving that they were never separate.

Sodas
11-27-2010, 03:29 PM
Most of your argument is well put together (besides the obvious snarling between you and Terez), but this quote is pure speculation (and perhaps even plain false, if you go by the text of the book). Rand even begs Lews Therin to speak with him, and calls upon the voices multiple times while it is missing, asking for it to come back. You may be arguing that it's all subconscious, but once again, speculation, as Rand definitely wants the voice to speak with him after his encounter with Cadsuane.

By Rand, I mean LTT. Sorry for the confusion.

It was LTT who squelched his own Voice.

At that point, the Voice was still more Mad than Real, I would say. The Voice became more sane after Rand Cleansed the Taint. But at that point in the Story, the Taint was still creating LTT's separate Voice directly.

Why did he squelch his own Voice?

LTT had some self control. Rand describes LTT as listening to Caddy :

Have you begun to hear voices, yet?”
“What do you mean?” he asked slowly. He could feel Lews Therin listening.

So how does that look from Lews Therin's perspective? Lews Therin is hearing Rand's Voice in his mind. He should be wondering if Rand is real or not as well.

So my belief is that Lews Therin didn't want to answer Rand.

You said, Rand wants to speak with LTT

Yes, as you pointed out, he does. But it's not about what Rand wanted, but what LTT wanted.

Rand first went into a great depression after Cadsuane asked him if he heard Voices. Rand had now come to believe Cadsuane. He dreamed over and over again about Cadsuane's words.

Again and again Cadsuane spoke those words about madmen hearing voices, till he flinched at them as at blows of a whip, flinched in his sleep when she appeared. In dreams and waking, he called to Lews Therin, shouted at him, screamed for him, and only silence answered. Alone. That small bundle of sensations and emotions in the back of his head, the sense of Alanna’s almost touch, slowly became a comfort. In many ways, that frightened him most of all.

Rand became convinced that hearing LTT meant he was mad.

“I’m talking about what I did to you,” he groaned. How could he have done that, to anyone, but most of all to her? “Min, I know how hard it is for you to be in the same room with me.” How could he recall the soft feel of her so, the silkiness of her skin? After he had torn her clothes off. “I never thought I was an animal, a monster.” But he was. He loathed himself for what he had done. And loathed himself worse because he wanted to do it again. “The only excuse I have is madness. Cadsuane was right. I did hear voices. Lews Therin’s voice, I thought. Can you—? No. No, I have no right to ask you to forgive me. But you have to know how sorry I am, Min.” He was sorry. And his hands ached to run down her bare back, over her hips. He was a monster. “Bitterly sorry. At least know that.”

So Rand is convinced he's Mad, and is creating LTT in his own mind. That is also known as the Construct Theory, no?

However, his Mind is changed by Min's Viewing.

“I’m grinning because you’ve given me very good news,” he said, touching her cheek. The other man had to be Lews Therin. I’m not just insane and hearing voices, he thought, jubilant. One lived and one died, but he had known for a long time that he was going to die. At least he was not mad. Or not as far mad as he had feared. There was still the temper he could barely control. “You see, I—”

Rand believed LTT died, according to Min's Viewing. So he is relieved. And then Rand wonders if LTT was always just a figure of his imagination.

13 days later, when we see Rand in TPOD, he already questions if LTT was ever real..

Flinn saluted again, but Rand was already striding away, black mud squelching around his boots. No cheers rose for him in the blustering wind. He could recall when there had been. If that was not one of Lews Therin’s memories. If Lews Therin had ever been real. A flash of color just beyond the edge of sight, the feel of someone about to touch him from behind. With an effort, he focused himself.

Read the rest of the chapter. Rand keeps repeating "no need for Lews Therin." He keeps trying to convince himself that LTT was never real. Rand had nothing to do with LTT's reappearance, and logically, shouldn't have anything to have done with his original disappearance.

So why does LTT return?

The real reason is two fold :

1. Because Rand reveals that he plans to Cleanse the Taint.

Rand picked up Taim’s missive, folded the page, and thrust it into his coat pocket. One in fifty mad already, and more to come. Was Morr next? Dashiva was surely close. Hopwil’s stares took on a new meaning, and even Narishma’s habitual quiet. Madness did not always mean screaming about spiders. He had asked once, warily, where he knew the answers would be true, how to cleanse the taint from saidin. And got a riddle for answer. Herid Fel had claimed the riddle stated “sound principles, in both high philosophy and natural philosophy,” but he had not seen any way to apply it to the problem at hand. Had Fel been killed because he might have puzzled out the riddle? Rand had a hint at the answer, or thought he might, a guess that could be disastrously wrong. Hints and riddles were not answers, yet he had to do something. If the taint was not cleansed somehow, Tarmon Gai’don might find a world already ruined by madmen. What had to be done, had to be done.

“That would be wondrous,” Torval said in a near whisper, “but how could anyone short of the Creator or . . . ?” He trailed off uneasily.

Rand had not realized he had spoken any of his thoughts aloud. Narishma’s eyes, and Morr’s, and Hopwil’s, belonged in one face, shining with sudden hope. Dashiva looked poleaxed. Rand hoped he had not said too much. Some secrets had to be kept. Including what he would do next.

In short order, Hopwil was running for his horse to ride to the ridge with orders for the nobles, Morr and Dashiva to find Flinn and the other Asha’man, and Torval was striding off to Travel back to the Black Tower with commands for Taim. Narishma was last, and thinking of Aes Sedai and Seanchan and weapons, Rand sent him away as well, with careful instructions that made the young man’s mouth tighten.

“Speak to no one,” Rand finished softly, gripping Narishma’s arm hard. “And don’t fail me. Not by a hair.”

“I won’t fail,” Narishma said, unblinking. With a quick salute, he was gone, too.

Dangerous, a voice whispered in Rand’s head. Oh, yes, very dangerous, maybe too dangerous. But it might work; it might. In any event, you must kill Torval now. You must.

So this is LTT's first reaction to Rand's plan to Cleanse the Taint. That's another one of those "Real" moments that shows that whatever is behind the Voice actually considered Rand's idea.

2. His second reaction is then to warn Rand that Torval is now a greater threat.

From the beginning of the scene, Rand already doesn't trust Torval.

Terez said in the OP, "Rand wants to kill them. He has good reason, but he feels he cannot afford to face those good reasons just yet. He has to trust Taim. He's been trying to convince himself of that since LOC."

So that is not true. Rand already didn't trust Torval.

Flinn saluted, fist to chest, and when Rand acknowledged him with a nod, limped closer and waited until the grooms left with the horses before speaking in a low voice. “Torval’s here. Sent by the M’Hael, he says. He wanted to wait in the council tent. I told Narishma to watch him.” That had been Rand’s command, though he was not sure why he had given it; no one who came from the Black Tower was to be left alone. Hesitating, Flinn fingered the Dragon on his black collar. “He wasn’t happy to hear you’d raised all of us.”

“Wasn’t he, now,” Rand said softly, tucking his gloves behind his sword belt. And because Flinn still looked uncertain, he added, “You all earned it.” He had been about to send one of the Asha’man to Taim—the Leader, the M’Hael, as the Asha’man all called him—but now Torval could carry the message. In the council tent? “Have refreshments sent,” he told Flinn, then motioned Hopwil and Dashiva to follow.

Rand leaked that he planned to Cleanse the Taint to someone who was about to go back to Taim and tell him everything. That's a pretty good reason to axe a guy if you suspect he's not really loyal to you, and he already was displeased with finding out Rand was raising Asha'man, not Taim.

Basically, Rand spilled the beans and LTT was like "Great idea, may work. But now Torval knows too much."

That's not some insane ravings. It's cold, but it's the truth.

So LTT came back because he couldn't resist commenting upon the idea of Cleansing the Taint, and warning Rand to be careful. LTT was squelching his own Voice because he believed he could have been insane as well. But LTT didn't want to speak until something happened that he couldn't contain his response. From his prospective, cleansing the Taint and removing the other Voice (Rand) was a good idea and solved Cadsuane's comment. So he returned because LTT couldn't help himself. LTT's return had nothing to do with Rand, or some crazied desire to kill Asha'man. It was because LTT wanted to comment upon the concept of Cleansing the Taint and the Madness he associated with Rand/Cadsuane.

subwoofer
11-27-2010, 05:58 PM
Wow! I seem to have stumbled onto the thread of Russian novels! There be many epic posts here folks:)

Ahem anyways, IMHO, here's the way I understand things-

The Pattern spins out people repeatedly. Wheels turn etc... Some people are tied really tight to the Wheel and are spun out more often than others because the Pattern needs them.

The DO has control of his minion's threads and as a result spins his lackeys back to life(provided that no balefire has been used) into another "shell" so they don't have to go through growing pains and they are also reborn with their memories intact, so they have no loss of connection with who they were and what they have done.

The Dragon is also constantly spun out by the Pattern but the big stumbling block, or good thing as the DO has tainted Saidin, is that the Dragon remembers nothing. Why is this good?- because at some point, with the taint, the Dragon had to go loopy. Before, during or after a tussle with the DO is up for debate, but that is the constant threat.

So the Dragon is born, has it's own personality as a newborn and grows up with life experiences etc and then at some point- usually when the channeling begins, LTT emerges, and then begins the struggle of the personality the Dragon is born with reconciling with LTT's personality. They are one and the same, with just the barrier of memory lapse to separate them. As we have seen in this last book, that is taken care of and Rand/LTT personalities are okay and integrated so all is hunky dory.

I'll have more later, but pregnant wife is hungry so I gotta go on a supply run...:)

Seeker
11-27-2010, 09:07 PM
Not this again!

Terez, I have read through your opening post. Twice. Honestly, haven't both "Real" and "Construct" been falsified at this point. Yes, one says that Rand created the voice and another says that the voice came from out of no where.

Well, of the above, at least the former is POSSIBLE. But neither seems to be what actually happened.

This book changed the way we think of the taint.

She could see the madness, like a dark network of veins digging into his mind. It seemed to pulse, like a small beating heart. She'd found similar corruption recently in other Asha'man. Her skill with Delving was improving, her weaves more refined, and she could find things once hidden to her. She had no idea how to fix what was wrong, though.

Anything should be Healable, she told herself. Anything but death itself. She concentrated, weaving all Five Powers, and carefully prodded at the madness, remembering what had happened when she'd removed the Compulsion from Graendal's unfortunate servant. Naeff was better off with this madness than he would be if she damaged his mind further.

Oddly, the darkness did seem similar to Compulsion. Was that what the taint had done? Bent the men who used the One Power with the Dark One's own Compulsion?

This section completely changed the way I think of the taint.

I used to think of the taint as a kind of corrosive substance, one that rots away/erodes a person's natural mental functioning. In my mind, the taint was analogous to acid. It etches away, damages Rand's brain. And I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts that most people here pictured the taint in the exact same way. Consider the number of theories that are based on the idea that the taint erodes things. ("The taint eroded the barrier between Rand and Lews Therin.")

But a corrosive substance clearly isn't what Nynaeve found (or rather corroded neural pathways aren't what she found). She found something similar to compulsion, something that delivered a specific set of instructions directly into Naeff's brain.

In that sense, the taint's effects are less like acid and more like a viral computer program.

So, given this new information, shouldn't we toss construct/real and other such theories by the wayside? Wouldn't it make more sense that the TAINT not Rand created the voice?

Or perhaps that the voice was a symptom of the taint's effect on Rand's mind? I'm pretty sure that the instructions that the taint fed to Rand go a little something like this. "It's your fault that (Moiraine/Liah/Ilyena) died. You're a failure. You need to make yourself harder. Cut yourself off from those bothersome emotions, they weaken you. Don't confront the guilt of murdering your family. Ilyena hates you. She trusted you and you MURDERED her! How could you? Everyone will turn on you in the end. Nothing you do matters. Death will be a sweet release. Life is pain. You have nothing to look forward to."

And so on and so forth.

Perhaps the voice was born out of a reaction to those feelings and was not created directly by the taint but still, this new info requires a completely new approach to the subject of Rand's madness.

Seeker
11-27-2010, 09:13 PM
Not this again!

Terez, I have read through your opening post. Twice. Honestly, haven't both "Real" and "Construct" been falsified at this point. Yes, one says that Rand created the voice and another says that the voice came from out of no where.

Well, of the above, at least the former is POSSIBLE. But neither seems to be what actually happened.

This book changed the way we think of the taint.

She could see the madness, like a dark network of veins digging into his mind. It seemed to pulse, like a small beating heart. She'd found similar corruption recently in other Asha'man. Her skill with Delving was improving, her weaves more refined, and she could find things once hidden to her. She had no idea how to fix what was wrong, though.

Anything should be Healable, she told herself. Anything but death itself. She concentrated, weaving all Five Powers, and carefully prodded at the madness, remembering what had happened when she'd removed the Compulsion from Graendal's unfortunate servant. Naeff was better off with this madness than he would be if she damaged his mind further.

Oddly, the darkness did seem similar to Compulsion. Was that what the taint had done? Bent the men who used the One Power with the Dark One's own Compulsion?

This section completely changed the way I think of the taint.

I used to think of the taint as a kind of corrosive substance, one that rots away/erodes a person's natural mental functioning. In my mind, the taint was analogous to acid. It etches away, damages Rand's brain. And I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts that most people here pictured the taint in the exact same way. Consider the number of theories that are based on the idea that the taint erodes things. ("The taint eroded the barrier between Rand and Lews Therin.")

But a corrosive substance clearly isn't what Nynaeve found. She found something similar to compulsion, something that delivered a specific set of instructions directly into Naeff's brain.

In that sense, the taint's effects are less like acid and more like a viral computer program.

So, given this new information, shouldn't we toss construct/real and other such theories by the wayside? Wouldn't it make more sense that the TAINT not Rand created the voice?

Or perhaps that the voice was a symptom of the taint's effect on Rand's mind? I'm pretty sure that the instructions that the taint fed to Rand go a little something like this. "It's your fault that (Moiraine/Liah/Ilyena) died. You're a failure. You need to make yourself harder. Cut yourself off from those bothersome emotions, they weaken you. Don't confront the guilt of murdering your family. Ilyena hates you. She trusted you and you MURDERED her! How could you? Everyone will turn on you in the end. Nothing you do matters. Death will be a sweet release. Life is pain. You have nothing to look forward to."

And so on and so forth.

Perhaps the voice was born out of a reaction to those feelings and was not created directly by the taint but still, this new info requires a completely new approach to the subject of Rand's madness.

subwoofer
11-27-2010, 10:34 PM
-Well I think part of the problem with some of these theories is that they are so massive that folk's eyes glaze over before anybody actually reaches a point. You can overwhelm a person with a ton of quotes and stuff, but it loses its impact if the audience has already tuned out before you make any kind of conclusion.

-As I have said, the thing about it LTT "voice" is that LTT's memories are re-awakened when the channeling begins. It is not that the voice comes from beyond. It is just that the Dragon is remembering who he is.

- He Rand/the Dragon Reborn does not have the advantage of the DO's minions of being linked to their memories beyond the grave.

-Consider it a "reboot" each time and it takes awhile for the registry to run and the start up menu to load some programs.

-Or like taking an Firefox upgrade while your browser is open. You exit out but you save the tabs. So the info is there, just not accessible while your browser is becoming the latest and greatest. Firefox takes and upgrade and then eventually you get back to what you had open on your browser. Substitute LTT for whatever you had on your browser and Rand's body for Firefox. Rand's personality is what appears on the monitor while the thing is rebooting. Looks nice, but you can't do a whole lot and it is not complete.

-Not a big tech person so I'm not sure if this makes a whole lotta sense. Will see if I can think up a similar analogy with puppets and maybe woodworking...

Seeker
11-28-2010, 12:09 AM
Actually, what you said makes perfect sense.

finn
11-28-2010, 12:46 AM
But a corrosive substance clearly isn't what Nynaeve found. She found something similar to compulsion, something that delivered a specific set of instructions directly into Naeff's brain.
It only appeared similar on the surface. Attempting to heal it like compulsion did not work. Delving deeper revealed the thorn-like projections embedded in Naeff's brain.

The method to heal it was different. She extracted each thorn, holding it at bay and healed the punctured area of the brain before moving on to the next. Healing after removing the thorns made those parts of the brain visibly healthier so there was some damage done. When she released the weave after she was done, the dark patch moved like it was alive before disappearing.

I'd say the taint's similarities to compulsion came from both affecting the mind and influencing thought and behavior. Beyond that, they appear quite different.

Seeker
11-28-2010, 01:20 AM
I'd say the taint's similarities to compulsion came from both affecting the mind and influencing thought and behavior.

That's not being similar to compulsion, that's being the SAME as compulsion. That's what compulsion IS.

morat'corlm
11-28-2010, 01:41 AM
Compulsion is a particular weave of the One Power. Possibly also of the True Power. In any case, it doesn't make your body fall apart and rot.

dominominic
11-28-2010, 01:47 AM
Not this again!

Terez, I have read through your opening post. Twice. Honestly, haven't both "Real" and "Construct" been falsified at this point. Yes, one says that Rand created the voice and another says that the voice came from out of no where.

Well, of the above, at least the former is POSSIBLE. But neither seems to be what actually happened.

This book changed the way we think of the taint.



This section completely changed the way I think of the taint.

I used to think of the taint as a kind of corrosive substance, one that rots away/erodes a person's natural mental functioning. In my mind, the taint was analogous to acid. It etches away, damages Rand's brain. And I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts that most people here pictured the taint in the exact same way. Consider the number of theories that are based on the idea that the taint erodes things. ("The taint eroded the barrier between Rand and Lews Therin.")

But a corrosive substance clearly isn't what Nynaeve found (or rather corroded neural pathways aren't what she found). She found something similar to compulsion, something that delivered a specific set of instructions directly into Naeff's brain.

In that sense, the taint's effects are less like acid and more like a viral computer program.

So, given this new information, shouldn't we toss construct/real and other such theories by the wayside? Wouldn't it make more sense that the TAINT not Rand created the voice?

Or perhaps that the voice was a symptom of the taint's effect on Rand's mind? I'm pretty sure that the instructions that the taint fed to Rand go a little something like this. "It's your fault that (Moiraine/Liah/Ilyena) died. You're a failure. You need to make yourself harder. Cut yourself off from those bothersome emotions, they weaken you. Don't confront the guilt of murdering your family. Ilyena hates you. She trusted you and you MURDERED her! How could you? Everyone will turn on you in the end. Nothing you do matters. Death will be a sweet release. Life is pain. You have nothing to look forward to."

And so on and so forth.

Perhaps the voice was born out of a reaction to those feelings and was not created directly by the taint but still, this new info requires a completely new approach to the subject of Rand's madness.

But then you have the taint/compulsion teaching Rand how to untie the knot on a tied-off shield(too specific), about the Can Breat(too pointless) and so on. Doesn't really make sense.

Jonai
11-28-2010, 02:03 AM
But then you have the taint/compulsion teaching Rand how to untie the knot on a tied-off shield(too specific), about the Can Breat(too pointless) and so on. Doesn't really make sense.

You'd also have it teaching him how to play the flute better than he originally could, and teaching him how to draw, circa WH. Damn, that Taint is talented!!

finn
11-28-2010, 03:28 AM
I'd say the taint's similarities to compulsion came from both affecting the mind and influencing thought and behavior. That's not being similar to compulsion, that's being the SAME as compulsion. That's what compulsion IS.

The differences would lie in how each affects the mind, which has been stated.

Seeker
11-28-2010, 10:20 AM
Compulsion is a particular weave of the One Power. Possibly also of the True Power. In any case, it doesn't make your body fall apart and rot.

Well, no, but all you've succeeded in proving there is that the taint does more than one thing. How it rots your body isn't something that we've been given any specific information on. For all we know, the taint may create a weave that does the opposite of Healing.

What we do have information on is the nature of the madness the taint creates. And the information is quite clear. The taint doesn't just damage your brain until you start seeing things, it plants very specific, very deliberate instructions into your mind. It's quite possible that the Dark One selects what each Asha'man will experience.

Given the new information, new theories should replace the old ones regarding Rand's madness.

Seeker
11-28-2010, 10:21 AM
But then you have the taint/compulsion teaching Rand how to untie the knot on a tied-off shield(too specific), about the Can Breat(too pointless) and so on. Doesn't really make sense.

Exactly.

Which is why I say now - as I've always said - that Rand's memories of Lews Therin were NOT caused by the taint.

If saidin had never been tainted, Rand would STILL have remembered Lews Therin.

Davian93
11-28-2010, 10:46 AM
Exactly.

Which is why I say now - as I've always said - that Rand's memories of Lews Therin were NOT caused by the taint.

If saidin had never been tainted, Rand would STILL have remembered Lews Therin.

I believe you're once again confusing Barrier Degradation Theory and Construct Theory.

dominominic
11-28-2010, 10:55 AM
Exactly.

Which is why I say now - as I've always said - that Rand's memories of Lews Therin were NOT caused by the taint.

If saidin had never been tainted, Rand would STILL have remembered Lews Therin.

But you think the voice is due to the taint?

Seeker
11-28-2010, 11:38 AM
But you think the voice is due to the taint?

Yes.

Without the taint, Rand's integration with Lews Therin would have been much more seamless. A few bumps here and there but no split personality. No voice in his head.

Seeker
11-28-2010, 11:39 AM
I believe you're once again confusing Barrier Degradation Theory and Construct Theory.

No, we're just veering slightly off-topic.

My point is I don't think either of those theories are valid in light of this new information.

Terez
11-28-2010, 01:02 PM
No, we're just veering slightly off-topic.

My point is I don't think either of those theories are valid in light of this new information.
Since you're obviously a constructor from your above comments, I can only surmise that you never understood the construct theory in the first place.

Seeker
11-28-2010, 01:09 PM
I understand it, Terez. I'm simply saying that prior to this, most people - myself included - thought the taint just caused random brain damage until the subject lost his wits.

But if that's not the case, if the taint is feeding deliberate malicious instructions into the subject's brain, then we need to consider the possibility that Rand's madness is not as simple as him inventing a false distinction between himself and Lews Therin.

How do you know that "I am Rand al'Thor!" wasn't one of the taint's instructions?

dominominic
11-28-2010, 02:04 PM
Is the taint Compelling other men to see Myrdraal etc?

Seeker
11-28-2010, 04:46 PM
Is the taint Compelling other men to see Myrdraal etc?

Yes. That's pretty much exactly what Nynaeve deduced. "Could the taint e infecting men with the Dark One's own brand of compulsion?"

Think of it this way. When you really think about it from a world-building perspective, you kind of see how the taint working as a deliberate weave of True Power makes more sense than it simply damaging men's brains. RJ must have seen this too and planned for it accordingly.

If you were to just randomly damage a man's brain, you'd be much more likely to end up with a vegetable than a crazed Aes Sedai capable of breaking the world. But, if instead, you change the function of a man's neural pathways, change the way he processes sensory information, make him see things that aren't there. (Like Myrdraal), but leave his motor control, his channeling ability in tact, well you get a human death machine.

It makes much more sense for the taint's effects to be deliberate, constructed, than it does for them to be random.

Terez
11-28-2010, 05:00 PM
I understand it, Terez. I'm simply saying that prior to this, most people - myself included - thought the taint just caused random brain damage until the subject lost his wits.
I don't think that's really what people believed. Most people believed that Rand's motives had more to do with the creation of the voice than madness, though now it's clear that the taint most likely helped him maintain the illusion (that was always a logical assumption, but not so well-supported until now).

But if that's not the case, if the taint is feeding deliberate malicious instructions into the subject's brain, then we need to consider the possibility that Rand's madness is not as simple as him inventing a false distinction between himself and Lews Therin.
His madness was mostly an extreme form of the tendency toward denial that first surfaced in TEOTW ch. 6. He was able to deny pretty much everything, from his true connection to Lews Therin, to the 'other one', to the obvious fact that Taim is a Darkfriend, etc.

How do you know that "I am Rand al'Thor!" wasn't one of the taint's instructions?
Because he said the same thing re: his father before he ever channeled. He has a strong sense of identity, and since we know he had the motive to disassociate, then it makes no sense to assume that his motives had nothing to do with it in this case. The taint helped him maintain the illusion, but clearly the motives inspired that illusion in the first place.

Seeker
11-28-2010, 07:03 PM
I don't think that's really what people believed. Most people believed that Rand's motives had more to do with the creation of the voice than madness, though now it's clear that the taint most likely helped him maintain the illusion (that was always a logical assumption, but not so well-supported until now).


Coolness.


His madness was mostly an extreme form of the tendency toward denial that first surfaced in TEOTW ch. 6. He was able to deny pretty much everything, from his true connection to Lews Therin, to the 'other one', to the obvious fact that Taim is a Darkfriend, etc.

Well, how much of that is madness and how much is Idiot Plot. Rand's desire to not give up his father is understandable but the characters in this series often flatly refuse to see what is right in front of their faces.

Moiraine: What are you doing, Liandrin?

Liandrin: Nothing. Go light.




Because he said the same thing re: his father before he ever channeled. He has a strong sense of identity, and since we know he had the motive to disassociate, then it makes no sense to assume that his motives had nothing to do with it in this case. The taint helped him maintain the illusion, but clearly the motives inspired that illusion in the first place.

Perhaps. I can't comment on that one way or another.

amazinglarry
11-28-2010, 07:14 PM
But if that's not the case, if the taint is feeding deliberate malicious instructions into the subject's brain, then we need to consider the possibility that Rand's madness is not as simple as him inventing a false distinction between himself and Lews Therin.

What exactly is the evidence that the taint feeds "deliberate malicious instructions" into the subject's brain? I think you might be taking Nynaeve's comparison to Compulsion a little too far. I thought Nynaeve was speculating and making a general observation in that passage...I don't think she meant that the taint carried specific instructions to each victim. I got the impression that the Darkness she finds is like a general brain-scrambler and that the effects it has will depend on the past experiences, fears, and possibly physiology of the Asha'man. At least I think that makes more sense than the Dark One weaving a special little set of instructions for each male channeler...

amazinglarry

Seeker
11-28-2010, 07:40 PM
Well, it's an argument by analogy.

If the taint's effects are truly analogous to compulsion - as Nynaeve suspects - that would seem to indicate that they are deliberate. Compulsion is a deliberate weave. It carries a specific set of instructions each time it is used. If the taint is analogous to compulsion then it also carries a specific set of instructions.

Now, there is, of course, the possibility that Nynaeve is wrong. But she has demonstrated a consistent aptitude for Delving, which has been corroborated by the massive number of people she has Healed and the fact that she has Healed them CORRECTLY. This would seem to eliminate, beyond reasonable doubt, the probability that Nynaeve is an unreliable narrator, at least with respect to subjects that involve Healing and Delving.

In short, if she sees that the Dark One's "weave" (or whatever it was) looks and and behaves similarly to a weave of compulsion, then I'm inclined to believe her.

I would not offer the same faith to say... Cadsuane or even RAND for that matter. But to Nynaeve, certainly.

Now, that doesn't mean the Dark One specifically chooses what the taint will do to each male channeler. I only listed that as a possibility. It does, however, suggest that the taint doesn't so much damage your brain as it feeds bad instructions/false information into the brain. For instance, it tells the neurons responsible for interpreting visual information to see myrdraal when, in reality, there are only shadows. It tells the amygdala to that the appropriate response to these myrdraal is fear. It over-rides the cerebral cortex's mechanism to ask "Wait? If there are really myrdraal, why aren't they attacking?"

finn
11-29-2010, 01:05 AM
Well, it's an argument by analogy.

If the taint's effects are truly analogous to compulsion - as Nynaeve suspects - that would seem to indicate that they are deliberate. Compulsion is a deliberate weave. It carries a specific set of instructions each time it is used. If the taint is analogous to compulsion then it also carries a specific set of instructions.No, the taint's overall structure appears analogous to compulsion. Delving deeper reveals that it is different, even structurally. So the effects don't have to be the same at all. The healing required is also very different, compulsion healing does not work and what does work isn't very much like traditional healing at all.

In short, if she sees that the Dark One's "weave" (or whatever it was) looks and and behaves similarly to a weave of compulsion, then I'm inclined to believe her.
Looks similar in an overall view, yes but not so when viewed up close. It also behaves very differently, reacting uniquely to attempts to disrupt it and practically coming alive once removed.

Now, that doesn't mean the Dark One specifically chooses what the taint will do to each male channeler. I only listed that as a possibility. It does, however, suggest that the taint doesn't so much damage your brain as it feeds bad instructions/false information into the brain.
The taint does damage the brain, the damaged areas do require healing once the thorns are removed. There's no evidence of the taint feeding any instruction. The taint could simply be scrambling the existing information on the brain, which would produce varied symptoms, each subjective to the victim.

Compulsion deals with specific instructions to the brain. The symptoms of madness that we've heard of are too varied to be a result of any form of compulsion.

The Immortal One
11-29-2010, 08:21 AM
No particular opinion on this but...

and practically coming alive once removed.

If the taint is the Dark One's own compulsion, then chances are that it was made, at least partly, with the True Power (though then you have to ask "Why could Nyneave see it when she Delved?"). And since the True Power is usually seen as an actual part of the Dark One (as opposed to a power which simply comes from the Dark One), then there is a fairly good reason why it would 'practically come alive'.

GonzoTheGreat
11-29-2010, 09:00 AM
Compulsion deals with specific instructions to the brain. The symptoms of madness that we've heard of are too varied to be a result of any form of compulsion.Not any directed Compulsion, no.
But it could be some sort of automated Compulsifying Mechanism, with a general "mess with mind" purpose, and a number of randomly suggested and mixable ways in which it could express itself.

finn
11-29-2010, 01:25 PM
If the taint is the Dark One's own compulsion, then chances are that it was made, at least partly, with the True Power (though then you have to ask "Why could Nyneave see it when she Delved?"). And since the True Power is usually seen as an actual part of the Dark One (as opposed to a power which simply comes from the Dark One), then there is a fairly good reason why it would 'practically come alive'.Good thoughts. The True Power apparently also results in insanity as a side-effect of prolonged use. The untainted one-power has no such drawback. Perhaps Nynaeve while delving saw it the same way Rand could see the black lines connected to Ishamael and Asmodean.

Not any directed Compulsion, no.
But it could be some sort of automated Compulsifying Mechanism, with a general "mess with mind" purpose, and a number of randomly suggested and mixable ways in which it could express itself.
Could we still call that compulsion though? And I don't quite understand the mechanism you've suggested. If it could be randomly generated, wouldn't we see a number of mental symptoms being expressed in each affected Male channeler? Instead why do we see one symptom, usually specific to each man?

Sodas
11-29-2010, 11:41 PM
Not this again!

Terez, I have read through your opening post. Twice. Honestly, haven't both "Real" and "Construct" been falsified at this point. Yes, one says that Rand created the voice and another says that the voice came from out of no where.

Well, of the above, at least the former is POSSIBLE. But neither seems to be what actually happened.

This book changed the way we think of the taint.



This section completely changed the way I think of the taint.

I used to think of the taint as a kind of corrosive substance, one that rots away/erodes a person's natural mental functioning. In my mind, the taint was analogous to acid. It etches away, damages Rand's brain. And I'd be willing to bet dollars to donuts that most people here pictured the taint in the exact same way. Consider the number of theories that are based on the idea that the taint erodes things. ("The taint eroded the barrier between Rand and Lews Therin.")

But a corrosive substance clearly isn't what Nynaeve found. She found something similar to compulsion, something that delivered a specific set of instructions directly into Naeff's brain.

In that sense, the taint's effects are less like acid and more like a viral computer program.

So, given this new information, shouldn't we toss construct/real and other such theories by the wayside? Wouldn't it make more sense that the TAINT not Rand created the voice?

Or perhaps that the voice was a symptom of the taint's effect on Rand's mind? I'm pretty sure that the instructions that the taint fed to Rand go a little something like this. "It's your fault that (Moiraine/Liah/Ilyena) died. You're a failure. You need to make yourself harder. Cut yourself off from those bothersome emotions, they weaken you. Don't confront the guilt of murdering your family. Ilyena hates you. She trusted you and you MURDERED her! How could you? Everyone will turn on you in the end. Nothing you do matters. Death will be a sweet release. Life is pain. You have nothing to look forward to."

And so on and so forth.

Perhaps the voice was born out of a reaction to those feelings and was not created directly by the taint but still, this new info requires a completely new approach to the subject of Rand's madness.

I have never bought into the assumption that the Taint was some sort of acid, or something that would cause decay. In fact, I've I have always been one to say that the Taint Degradation theory was a jump to concussions. I've always been for LTT being there from the beginning and being awakened at Falme by the Horn / Rand's adulthood.

I felt that the Taint's effect was something else, it's own madness, and even before reading TOM, knew that it had left some sort of lasting effect on Rand because the Cleansing didn't rid Rand of LTT's Voice. I just didn't realize it would be almost alive parasite that's similar to compulsion.

Bryan Blaire
11-30-2010, 06:23 PM
I love how Terez comes in and tells people that they believe her and Callandor's theory, when their own statements say otherwise (see Seeker's comments).

Here's my beef with the LTT voice is a Construct theory, as written by Callandor: it assumes that the mental pathology stated to occur in the theory is the way it works, when we have no evidence from the author of the series or actual psychological studies to show that it does. This has already been argued numerous times. The pathology is made up by the author of the theory, and relies upon that pathology to state the theory, which is circular logic and lacks evidentiary proof that the pathology occurs. When this is argued against, when the persons arguing this state that there may have been other ways the voice could have been "created", the author argues that this already means they agree with the theory. This is false, as the theory states specifics that those arguing against it disagree with.

I am not a Constructor, because I don't believe that RAND made up the voice from his madness, which is what the theory says. I do believe that the voice was made.

These are two different things.

Terez is hungry for supporters, so she tries to force people to be her supporters by telling them that they are.

Belazamon
11-30-2010, 08:25 PM
I am not a Constructor, because I don't believe that RAND made up the voice from his madness, which is what the theory says. I do believe that the voice was made.

These are two different things.
Made by who or what, then? I'm not sure I know exactly where you're going with that.

Bryan Blaire
11-30-2010, 09:05 PM
That's okay, Bela, the fact that I don't agree with the basis of the theory, namely "It came from the madness", is enough to make it not agreeing with the theory itself. The basis of the theory is NOT that the voice is a construct, but HOW it is made that makes it unique. Otherwise the theory isn't any different than the Two and a Half Souls theory that was a joke 8 years or more ago and Terez and Callandor are just ripping my joke off trying to make it serious.

You might as well ask how an individual's "internal voice" gets constructed...

Belazamon
11-30-2010, 09:36 PM
Clear as mud, Blades. ;)

Bryan Blaire
11-30-2010, 09:47 PM
I've argued my point about how voices get "constructed" by souls enough, and seeing as even Callandor has stated it (the memories concept is part of his theory), I don't feel the need to go over it again. My point is, the Construct Theory is not a general theory that the "voice" of LTT was "constructed", it's that it was "constructed" in a very specific way. You can agree that the voice was made in some fashion without agreeing with the Construct Theory. Besides, how the hell was it/who the hell decided that there were ONLY two ways that the voice could come about. It's a false dichotomy in the basest form.

Belazamon
11-30-2010, 10:06 PM
No worries, I just honestly don't remember the ins'n'outs of your beliefs on this particular issue. For what it's worth, I don't think that believers in so-called "Construct Theory" are quite as monolithic as Terez wants people to believe, either. ;)

As I honestly haven't been keeping track of the details of Terez and Callandor's understandings of construct theory, I'm curious if you also disagree with the way I put it (http://www.theoryland.com/factions.php?func=4&rec=84)?

Bryan Blaire
11-30-2010, 10:17 PM
I would say that he's definitely both a voice offering interpretations on Rand's data and a personality in the DR's gourd. Not sure that it was a subconscious effect so much as it was simply created by the Dragon Soul in the same way that Rand's personality was created, namely from the memories of LTT's life (which is likely where the internal LTT voice came from and got its tone as well), except that the LTT personality sprang whole-hog as opposed to gradual development as Rand's would have been. I don't agree that it had anything to do with keeping him from going insane as it was simply an effect of having those memories, which I still maintain was an effect of the Pattern as this is the Dragon Reborn, and not due to any other cause.

If I'm not mistaken, Rand himself makes a comment that the Pattern needed him/caused him to be this way in this book.

YMMV

Belazamon
11-30-2010, 10:21 PM
I would probably leave out the part about "keeping him from going insane" were I to make the faction today. Looking back, probably I was just trying to compact the theory into a bite-sized morsel to avoid having a completely unwieldy faction synopsis.

Other than that, I definitely disagree that LTT's personality "sprang whole-hog," as you put it. But I promise not to hate you forever because you're wrong. ;)

Bryan Blaire
11-30-2010, 10:30 PM
It is definitely farther along at "inception" than "Rand" would have been as a baby, as the DR LTT personality already had some basis in a previous personality. It didn't have to "find out who it was", wasn't as gradual as the development of "Rand" was (over 18 years). It does definitely seem to change as Rand gets more conscious access to LTT's memories, lending some backing to the idea that it is memories/experiences that allow the development of personalities directly.

Sodas
12-01-2010, 01:08 AM
I would probably leave out the part about "keeping him from going insane" were I to make the faction today. Looking back, probably I was just trying to compact the theory into a bite-sized morsel to avoid having a completely unwieldy faction synopsis.

That's like taking the bacon outta the BLT.:rolleyes:

GonzoTheGreat
12-01-2010, 03:36 AM
Clear as mud, Blades. ;)Perhaps I can clarify a bit by requoting something I think I've used before. Namely, proof positive that Nynaeve too has LTT speaking to her:
Nynaeve was not sure what she answered. Something that made them let her go on. She hurried away from the women's apartments, head swiveling at every crossing corridor to look for him, fists clenched. Light, what have they done to him? I should have gotten him away from Moiraine somehow, the Light blind her. I'm his Wisdom.
Are you, a small voice taunted. You've abandoned Emond's Field to fend for itself. Can you still call yourself their Wisdom?Is there a real difference between this voice speaking to Nynaeve, and the voice speaking to Rand?
And if so, what mechanism (Taint induced or not) causes the voice in Nynaeve's head?

Side note: sometimes I wonder why not simply every chapter was titled "The Dragon Reborn". There are definitely plenty of those; making all the others the same would have simplified the printing process, thus speeding up completion of the series.

Belazamon
12-01-2010, 02:02 PM
That's like taking the bacon outta the BLT.:rolleyes:
Howdy, Sodas! I am not Terez, so I do not subscribe to all of her explanations about what "Construct Theory" must necessarily entail. In short - it's my sandwich, go make your own. ;)

But, to clarify a bit - telling himself that BLTT was another guy who was stuck in his head wasn't a way for Rand to stay sane, it was a way for Rand to convince himself that he wasn't insane. I hope you'd agree that those aren't exactly the same thing.

Is there a real difference between this voice speaking to Nynaeve, and the voice speaking to Rand?
And if so, what mechanism (Taint induced or not) causes the voice in Nynaeve's head?
Well, yes, the mechanism is called "talking to yourself." The difference is that Nynaeve didn't have any reason to fear that some crazy chick from the Age of Legends was hiding in her brain. :D

Sodas
12-01-2010, 10:05 PM
Howdy, Sodas! I am not Terez, so I do not subscribe to all of her explanations about what "Construct Theory" must necessarily entail.


Howdy, Customer. I am not Quiznos, so I do not subscribe to all of their explanations for what a "BLT" must necessarily entail.

- Subway

A "BLT" isn't just Quiznos's, it's a commonly held term that we all know and recognize. When someone says "BLT" they know they are gonna get Bacon Lettuce Tomato.

It just so happens you are right, no one really knows wtf "Construct Theory" means but Terez. Maybe that should have been a clue though.

Belazamon
12-01-2010, 11:49 PM
A "BLT" isn't just Quiznos's, it's a commonly held term that we all know and recognize. When someone says "BLT" they know they are gonna get Bacon Lettuce Tomato.

It just so happens you are right, no one really knows wtf "Construct Theory" means but Terez. Maybe that should have been a clue though.
Ah, but the difference is that no one would argue that there isn't a universal definition for "BLT." However (and maybe I'm wrong here), I don't really think that anyone (besides maybe Terez) would argue with a straight face that there is only one possible variation of Construct Theory.

Long story short - despite the hype, not everyone agree 100% on every detail of the so-called "Construct Theory." :)

Sodas
12-02-2010, 02:09 AM
Ok. But this thread is Terez's.

It's only fair that she is put on the spot about her theory, or does everyone cede that Terez's Construct theory is now debunked?

CreationEdge
12-02-2010, 08:46 AM
I thought RJ said he wasn't going to reveal what it was, and leave it up the the reader to decide for themselves?


Because, even with the new information, and Rand's current state, we still don't KNOW if it was just himself like in his current Rand Telamon messiah state, if it was a psycho crazy voice to justify his darker thoughts, or a psycho voice to deny the memories he was getting from his previous life, or a real voice trying to communicate...


BS said that Rand's POVs were intentionally left out of TOM, so we don't see his thought processes.

Everything up until his Dragonmount moment is still up in the air. And I don't think we're ever supposed to know. Probably one of those things RJ left for BS that only says "Not to be revealed."

Terez
12-02-2010, 11:47 AM
The point is not that there's not enough evidence to figure it out, but that they're not going to kill the question forever with a direct answer. It leaves something for the academia to discuss.

So, your argument is not a real argument. Sorry.

Belazamon
12-02-2010, 01:28 PM
It's only fair that she is put on the spot about her theory, or does everyone cede that Terez's Construct theory is now debunked?
You disagree with it ≠ everyone cedes that it is debunked. I'm not even honestly sure why this is such an important goal for you.

CreationEdge
12-02-2010, 06:09 PM
The point is not that there's not enough evidence to figure it out, but that they're not going to kill the question forever with a direct answer. It leaves something for the academia to discuss.

So, your argument is not a real argument. Sorry.

Or, it could also mean that RJ intentionally wrote things to be ambiguous without giving enough "proof" one way or another, because he wanted some things to be mysteries (hence numerous Not to Be Revealeds) as part of the fun of the books.

It leaves it open for us to discuss, not argue. Discuss endlessly without coming to a solid winner, ever. Which seems to be the point.

Sodas
12-02-2010, 06:20 PM
You disagree with it ≠ everyone cedes that it is debunked. I'm not even honestly sure why this is such an important goal for you.

That's not what I said or implied. If no one is willing to defend it, then people are ceding the theory.

And it's important because those who continue to belittle others, should eat crow when they turn out to be wrong.

Jokeslayer
12-02-2010, 06:46 PM
That's not what I said or implied. If no one is willing to defend it, then people are ceding the theory.

Wow, seriously? It must be fun being you, when all it takes to be right about stuff is to be the last kid screaming.

Sodas
12-02-2010, 10:11 PM
Wow, seriously? It must be fun being you, when all it takes to be right about stuff is to be the last kid screaming.

Actually, all it takes to be right is the books or RJ's direct word.

Where I come from, adults own up to their mistakes. Perhaps you don't believe that, or your a child, I don't really know, but right now is time for Terez's Construct theory to eat some humble pie.

jana
12-02-2010, 10:16 PM
I suppose this is cruel by I find it hilarious that RJ wouldn't answer this. It doesn't quite make up for him answering about Asmodean, but I'll take it.

Terez
12-02-2010, 10:19 PM
Or, it could also mean that RJ intentionally wrote things to be ambiguous without giving enough "proof" one way or another, because he wanted some things to be mysteries (hence numerous Not to Be Revealeds) as part of the fun of the books.
I don't think it's so black and white as you make it out to be. Just because something can't be proven doesn't mean that one argument doesn't make more sense than the other.

Belazamon
12-03-2010, 12:55 AM
Where I come from, adults own up to their mistakes. Perhaps you don't believe that, or your a child, I don't really know, but right now is time for Terez's Construct theory to eat some humble pie.
You just keep us posted on how that works out for you. I'll be waiting with great interest. :D

Sodas
12-03-2010, 01:21 AM
You just keep us posted on how that works out for you. I'll be waiting with great interest. :D

I wouldn't wait with baited breath. Afterall, her Construct Theory is already debunked. I doubt she even realizes how she was wrong.

The Immortal One
12-04-2010, 10:39 AM
If no one is willing to defend it, then people are ceding the theory.

I think it's more likely that nobody seems to be defending the theory because each person who does believe it likes their own individual variations on it.

Also, I think the fact that you're saying over and over that the theory is debunked - with very little counter-evidence - makes them less likely to want to argue until you bring up specific points where you think the theory doesn't work.

Finally, the simple fact that Terez created this new thread obviously means that she still believes this theory. And the way she titled it seems to show that she believes it is no longer a 'theory', so to speak, but little short of obvious fact.

Seeker
12-04-2010, 12:22 PM
Oooh, Very good points, Finn! You gave me pause with that argument. :) I did a reread and this is what I came up with.

No, the taint's overall structure appears analogous to compulsion. Delving deeper reveals that it is different, even structurally. So the effects don't have to be the same at all. The healing required is also very different, compulsion healing does not work and what does work isn't very much like traditional healing at all.

Looks similar in an overall view, yes but not so when viewed up close. It also behaves very differently, reacting uniquely to attempts to disrupt it and practically coming alive once removed.

I think a good point that you might want to consider is this.

Towers of Midnight. "Use a pebble"

Was that what the taint had done? Bent the men who used the One Power with the Dark One's own Compulsion?

[Nynaeve] carefully laid a counterweave opposite the madness then laid it over Naeff's mind. The weave just faded away, doing nothing.

But then, after Nynaeve pulls the madness out of Naeff's brain....

She continued working, preparing another counterweave. Once she had pried up each and every thorn, she released her new weave. The dark patch undulated and shook like something alive

Then it vanished.

So, Nynaeve first tries a counterweave against compulsion and it fails. Then, once she pulls the madness off of Naeff's brain, she tried uses another counterweave and the madness dies. No explanation is given to indicate that 'counterweave' means something different in the second instance than it did in the first. Therefore, it literally means the same exact weave.

Also, check this passage from the gathering storm.

The Gathering Storm "A Conversation with the Dragon."

[Nynaeve] wove separate lines of Spirit, Delving into his head as delicately as she could, prodding the weaves that clumped across his mind. Yes, she could see it now, a complex web made from Spirit, Air and Water. It was horrible, looking at it with her mind's eye, crisscrossing the youth's brain. Bits of the weave touched here and there, like tiny hooks, jutting into the brain itself.

Reverse the weave, Rand had said. That was far from easy. She'd have to pull the web of Compulsion off layer by layer.

I would suggest to you that the only major difference between a weave of compulsion and the weave of the True Power laid down by the taint is in the degree of potency, the staying power of the madness. Both dig into the brain with "little hooks/thorns," both are destroyed with a counterweave, which is essentially a mirror image of the original weave.

The only difference is the taint weave clings harder. It has to be pried off first.


The taint does damage the brain, the damaged areas do require healing once the thorns are removed. There's no evidence of the taint feeding any instruction. The taint could simply be scrambling the existing information on the brain, which would produce varied symptoms, each subjective to the victim.

Well, yes, but that's because the taint doesn't lay the same weave upon each victim. It touches different parts of each channeler's brain.

Compulsion deals with specific instructions to the brain. The symptoms of madness that we've heard of are too varied to be a result of any form of compulsion.

Given both the variance and the specificity of the different types of madness we've seen, is it so hard to believe that those forms of madness come from specific instructions?

As I said before, if you just start damaging random spots of someone's brain, the most likely result is that you'll turn him into a vegetable. The brain is a very delicate thing. But if the spots where the damage is inflicted are limited to very specific areas and very specific kinds of damage, well then you get a person who sees myrdraal where no myrdraal exist.

Consider the degree of specificity involved in making someone see imaginary myrdraal. You need altar the neural pathways that interpret visual information. You need to alter the cerebral cortex, remove he subject's inclination to simply ask questions like "Do you see the myrdraal too, Nynaeve Sedai? No? Then why do I see them?"

Did you notice how Naeff suddenly becomes cogent when Nyneave has fixed him? "Wait? If there were really myrdraal, they would have killed me." Did you note how that thought never occurred to him until after the madness was gone. Meaning the part of his brain that allowed him to conceptualize such a thought was damaged.

Now, please tell me how there can be a weave that damages those parts of a subject's brain and ONLY those parts without some degree of will directing it? The "it's a roll of the dice" answer doesn't work. If it was simply a matter of luck, there would be hundreds of Asha'man left as vegetables, stuck in bed and soiling themselves. There aren't.

Sodas
12-04-2010, 09:56 PM
I think it's more likely that nobody seems to be defending the theory because each person who does believe it likes their own individual variations on it.

That is true, but I'm not looking for anything but what was at the core of the Construct vs Real debate. No offense, but it's not what was so lividly discussed only a few years ago. If no one defends that LTT was a construct of Rand's mind, like an imaginary friend, then it's done.


Also, I think the fact that you're saying over and over that the theory is debunked - with very little counter-evidence - makes them less likely to want to argue until you bring up specific points where you think the theory doesn't work.

Then you didn't read this thread, or my TOM thread, whereas I posted plenty of quotes, evidence and explained my logic. I even picked Terez's OP apart line by line. So this point is guano.


Finally, the simple fact that Terez created this new thread obviously means that she still believes this theory. And the way she titled it seems to show that she believes it is no longer a 'theory', so to speak, but little short of obvious fact.

And? That's Terez, and also Callandor. Two posters who have a history of abusing logic. If you take what they say at face value then Felix theories should all be considered fact as well.

Just for a point of reference,
"The only reason Rand constructed the voice in the first place was because he couldn't accept that he was Lews Therin."
- Terez. link (http://theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=68545#post68545)

That's what the debate was. Why the voice was constructed. Turned out the only reason Rand constructed the Voice was the Taint's Darkness. How could you call that anything but debunked?

finn
12-05-2010, 05:58 AM
Oooh, Very good points, Finn! You gave me pause with that argument. :) I did a reread and this is what I came up with.
Nice one! :) I had overlooked GS and took counterweave to mean her plucking out the thorns and holding it at bay. Your interpretation does hold water so allow me to withdraw any objections I'd made before.

Seeker
12-05-2010, 01:24 PM
Nice one! :) I had overlooked GS and took counterweave to mean her plucking out the thorns and holding it at bay. Your interpretation does hold water so allow me to withdraw any objections I'd made before.

Thank you.

And this is why I think both the construct theory and the real theory are wrong.

The construct theory says that Rand created the Lews Therin voice to cope with memories of his former life. I think it is far more likely that the taint programmed the LTT voice.

The real theory says that the LTT voice IS the voice of Lews Therin, the voice that accompanies the memories of Lews Therin's life. The flaw here is the assumption that each life has its own voice.

Birgitte remembers multiple lives and yet she doesn't have multiple voices in her head.

So, in summary. The pattern gave Rand his memories of LTT, the taint created the split personality. If saidin had been clean, Rand would have gradually remembered his life as LTT in the same way that Birgitte remembers all of hers. He would have thought things like "I killed Ilyena" instead of "Lews Therin killed Ilyena."

Sodas
12-05-2010, 05:45 PM
The real theory says that the LTT voice IS the voice of Lews Therin, the voice that accompanies the memories of Lews Therin's life. The flaw here is the assumption that each life has its own voice.


That is directly lifted from Jordan himself.


Link (http://web.archive.org/web/20030112090827/http://www.dragonmount.com/Interviews/2003-01-07.aspx)
Q: The question is, with Rand and Lews Therin, do they have one soul or two souls in the body?

RJ: They have one soul with two personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I [cobbled] together.

Seeker
12-05-2010, 06:08 PM
Well, but there are two problems with using that particular interview quote.

First and foremost, you've decided to use the terms "voice" and "personality" interchangeably. That is a mistake. I agree with you that Lews Therin's personality WHEN HE WAS ALIVE, IN HIS OWN BODY, is not the same as Rand's personality. But personality, as RJ is using the term, refers to a list of character traits that pertains to each individual incarnation.

Some of those traits will be ingrained in the soul itself. (Both Rand and Lews Therin were fiercely dedicated to their causes)

Some are determined by environmental factors. (Rand is fiercely protective of women. Lews Therin, not so much.)

But it would be a remarkable stretch to attempt the claim that Jordan was trying to say that Rand and Lews Therin had separate consciousnesses, that they were separate people who happened to share the same soul.

The very idea is a contradiction in terms. A person's very identity in WOT is defined by their soul. One person = one soul.

It's stated directly in the books.

The Gathering Storm "Veins of Gold."

[Rand] knew —somehow—that he would never again hear Lews Therin's voice in his head. For they were not two men, and never had been.

And that leads me to the second problem with that interview quote.

If taken in the way that you seem to be trying to use it, (to say that each life has its own distinct consciousness or voice) then it stands in direct opposition to what is written in the books themselves, specifically Rand's words in the above section of the Gathering Storm.

Lews Therin and Rand are the same man in much the same way that Clark Kent and Superman are the same man. Only the name and the presentation are different. Only the stuff on the surface is different. Rand's personality in the Age of Legends was different than his personality in the Third Age because of different environmental factors. But there is but ONE consciousness. Only one.

You can't use an interview quote to try to circumvent what is written in the novels themselves.

Sodas
12-05-2010, 09:56 PM
No, lol, you can't argue against a 1st hand quote.

The problem really is with interpreting the books wrong.

For instance,
The very idea is a contradiction in terms. A person's very identity in WOT is defined by their soul. One person = one soul.

If this were true, then we wouldn't have Slayer.

Thus, the books prove there can be more than one persona per Soul and also agree with what Jordan wrote.

Nice try though.

Belazamon
12-06-2010, 01:07 AM
If this were true, then we wouldn't have Slayer.

Thus, the books prove there can be more than one persona per Soul and also agree with what Jordan wrote.
He said "one person, one soul," not "one body, one soul." As a Realer, you shouldn't be inclined to make that mistake. ;)

Sodas
12-06-2010, 04:05 AM
I was talking about a person's identity being defined by the Soul (not the one person, one soul part). The Soul may give some archetype information, like always being male, but memories and personality are created from one Age to the next. Outside of that, we've seen every shade of movement of personalities, such as two personalities sequentially occupying Slayer, or Fain's personality twice being corrupted. This is a fantasy universe and some people need to get over applying real science to WOT.

This brings back memories. Still believe this, Bela?

link (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2471&highlight=shameless&page=10)

But let's get back to the suppression. You say it's unconscious. How does one stop the unconscious from continuing to suppress the memories? What does any conscious viewpoint Rand makes on the origin of those memories have to do with solving the unconscious behavior?
"In this particular case, it appears to have been due to a final revelation about the "differences" between himself and LTT - to wit, that fundamentally, there aren't any. The subconscious suppression of the LTT memories was due to a denial that these memories were his in any way, shape, or form - then he had his "breakthrough" moment that unlocked the floodgates, so to speak. In other words, he finally both understood and accepted that these memories were his, and thus the underlying motivation for the suppression was eliminated.

That, after all, is why it's called a "breakthrough."

:D

The Immortal One
12-06-2010, 08:17 AM
The Soul may give some archetype information, like always being male,

I see what you did there - you're trying to subtly deny the female Dragon theory!!!

/Sarcasm

Isabel
12-06-2010, 09:17 AM
I see what you did there - you're trying to subtly deny the female Dragon theory!!!

/Sarcasm

The female dragon theory has been dead since 2001 :p

GonzoTheGreat
12-06-2010, 10:40 AM
So has Moiraine, but she came back too, didn't she?
All right, technically that was 1993, if you want to be picky, but that's basically the same thing.

Belazamon
12-06-2010, 04:11 PM
I was talking about a person's identity being defined by the Soul (not the one person, one soul part).
That's great and all, but that's not what you said. Seeker: A person's very identity in WOT is defined by their soul. One person = one soul.
Sodas: If this were true, then we wouldn't have Slayer.
Sure we would. Slayer is two people - two souls - in one body. Nothing that Seeker posted contradicts this in any way, shape, or form.

This brings back memories. Still believe this, Bela?
Yep.

Seeker
12-06-2010, 10:16 PM
Sure we would. Slayer is two people - two souls - in one body. Nothing that Seeker posted contradicts this in any way, shape, or form.

Thank you, Bela. Precisely. Slayer is TWO people and that is well established in the books. Do I really need to look up quotes to show Luc shifting with Isam?

And yes, you can argue with a first-hand statement from the author for several reasons.

First.

Quotations from the actual novels always precede interview quotes in order of cannonicity. This is because authors are human and often fail to express themselves as well as they might like.

A section of narrative from the novels can be reread, edited and refined to ensure the author expresses precisely what he means to say. An author has literally hours on end to fine-tune any paragraph in the novel.

A response to a question at a signing, however, must be given quickly and the author may not have time to think of check his notes.

Any time an interview quote contradicts the text of the actual novels, the interview quote MUST be discarded.

Second.

This particular answer on behalf of Robert Jordan appears to be non-sequitor. Look at the actual text.

Q: The question is, with Rand and Lews Therin, do they have one soul or two souls in the body?

RJ: They have one soul with two personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I [cobbled] together.

The questioner is clearly asking about Rand and the VOICE of Lews Therin Telamon in Rand's head.

RJ, however, answers by contrasting Rand, man living in the Third Age with Lews Therin Telamon, the man who lived in the second age. I don't think that RJ even understood what he was being asked here. His answer in no way addresses the actual intended subject matter of the question.


Third.
Your interpretation of RJ's answer is flawed.

You are taking "personality" to mean "consciousness." Those two terms are not synonymous.

This confusion is often caused by a misunderstanding of the psychological condition known as Multiple Personality Disorder, a condition that has been FALSELY attributed to Rand.

Many people believe that victims of Multiple Personality Disorder (assuming there are still cases that have not been debunked) have two separate consciousnesses operating independently in one body. This is not correct. The term "personality" in MPD means literally what it has always meant. "Personality" refers to a person's mannerisms and behaviours, the way he conducts himself. Supposed victims of MPD, will often have a docile personality and an aggressive one. Stress activates the aggressive personality and the subject goes from mild-mannered to angry and violent.

BUT THE SAME MIND IS IN CONTROL FOR BOTH THE VIOLENT AND THE DOCILE BEHAVIOUR

There is only one consciousness, one person. The difference is in how that person behaves. The term "multiple personalities" refers to a sudden, inexplicable shift in behaviour and mannerisms of a single individual.


Yes, when the docile personality returns after the stress has passed, the subject sometimes "blacks out" what he did while violent. But that is a case of forced memory repression, not a separate consciousness taking over.

Lews Therin and Rand DO have different personalities (mannerism, character traits) but only one consciousness. They are the same man.

Superman and Clark Kent are two different personalities of the same man. "Personality" is not synonymous with "consciousness."

By using the interview quote to defend the REAL THEORY, you are misquoting RJ.

AbbeyRoad
12-06-2010, 10:43 PM
Wow... this again? I thought we were done with this argument. Gotta love theoryland, where no argument ever goes anywhere :D

Terez
12-06-2010, 10:54 PM
There are only a few stubborn real'ers left. It's my fault; I had to post it because Luckers was going on about his hybrid on Twitter.

Jonai
12-06-2010, 10:55 PM
Gosh Terez, you instigator. And Abbey, you should know things never go anywhere. ;)

Sodas
12-06-2010, 11:14 PM
Bela,
How do you know he is two souls? Only one persona is ever active at a time, and he only has one prescience in TAR.

To sum up your position, you said it was purely Rand's mental breakthrough that healed the Voice. That's debunked now. Guess who said it was the Taint's effect left upon the body?

Seeker,

1. Yes, but let's be frank in that your interpreting what the phrase "same man" means. Jordan never wrote Rand was the same conscious as LTT in the books. But he did say the LTT voice was its own personality. So an actual quote > your intepretaion.

2. No offense, but I trust Jordan understood the question more than I trust you do.

3. I have always prefered to use personality, not conciousness. That is more the Constructors, who like to say Rand conciously healed his subconcious problem upon Dragonmount. Lol. So you have me confused.

Belazamon
12-07-2010, 12:04 AM
Bela, How do you know he is two souls? Only one persona is ever active at a time, and he only has one prescense in TAR.
Honestly? I will admit that's a fair question, if only barely. We know that Slayer is a combination of Luc and Isam, who were different persons/souls before they were merged. But I can offer no definitive proof that the merging process didn't actually entail destroying one soul and simply imprinting the memories from that soul upon the other soul. It just seems a little clunky, and we don't have any evidence that it happened that way either - so I'm going with Occam's Razor. Your mileage may vary.

To sum up your position, you said it was purely Rand's mental breakthrough that healed the Voice. That's debunked now.
Must've missed that. Huh.

Without reading the entirely of the thread you linked - I feel as though I mostly didn't worry about the effects of the Taint on Rand when I was discussing the formation of the LTT voice. While I don't think the Taint was a necessary component of the mechanism which resulted in the Voice, I will agree that it was probably a helpful component. To wit - Rand's emotional problems and increased paranoia were probably helped along by the Taint as well as the by the simple stresses of being the Dragon Reborn. So the new "Lightshield" that seems to be protecting Rand's mind from the Taint effects was most likely quite useful in mitigating those symptoms, which could only help his state of mind for his "breakthrough."

inb4 "those aren't the exact words you used last time, so you admit you were wrong haha!"

Sodas
12-07-2010, 01:21 AM
Lol. :p

While I don't think the Taint was a necessary component of the mechanism which resulted in the Voice, I will agree that it was probably a helpful component.

And I don't. I think it's been proven that it was all a physical problem.

The Voice disappears in TGS.15 when not affected by the physical body
The Voice is gone after the Darkness is physically blocked

I've always said it was a physical problem, an effect of the Taint, and needed a physical solution.

Before, Bela, you never really followed this train of logic. You argued against me.

Cleansing saidin itself didn't undo any already-existing effects of the taint. But it would have stopped Rand from taking in any more Taint.

What undid the effects of the Taint was ultimately the Soul and the body eventually healing themselves. At least, that is what makes the most sense. And why not? Rand is the Champion of Light and Ta'varen.
See, it's this tack that confuses me. You admit that the effects will not be undone, they just won't get worse. But the voice was undone. How, then, can you attribute it to Taint-damage?
I made the connection between the disappearance of the Voice and Taint-damage long ago.

Terez
12-07-2010, 09:10 AM
Moridin calls him the one with two souls.

GonzoTheGreat
12-07-2010, 09:13 AM
Which "him"?

Terez
12-07-2010, 09:29 AM
Slayer, of course.

Sodas
12-07-2010, 01:22 PM
Refering to someone as having two souls is not the same thing as actually being two souls.

Belazamon
12-07-2010, 01:47 PM
Before, Bela, you never really followed this train of logic. You argued against me.
If it helps, I still disagree with you. :)

Sodas
12-07-2010, 02:44 PM
Isn't the Taint Darkness, that Nynaeve Delved, proof that the Taint left something physically on Rand's mind that was causing the Voice?

I don't understand why you don't agree.

Belazamon
12-08-2010, 12:06 AM
I don't understand why you don't agree.
And history has shown that you never will.

Have a nice thread! :)

Seeker
12-08-2010, 07:35 PM
Isn't the Taint Darkness, that Nynaeve Delved, proof that the Taint left something physically on Rand's mind that was causing the Voice?

I don't understand why you don't agree.


No, actually. It doesn't prove that the taint created the LTT voice. I personally believe that the taint created the voice, but Nynaeve's delving is not sufficient to prove that. If I were a constructor (WHICH I AM NOT), I could argue that the taint merely supplied the right conditions for Rand to create the voice himself. The fun of this board is that in the absence of proof, a good argument will sway people.

Also, Sodas, you are correct in saying that RJ never wrote that Rand and Lews Therin were the same man. His exact words (or at the very least, the words of Brandon Sanderson) were

The Gathering Storm. "Veins of Gold"

He knew - somehow - that he would never again hear Lews Therin's voice in his head. For they were not two men and never had been.


So, Sodas, if Rand and Lews Therin are not two men, how many men are they?

Three?

Four?

Ten?

Forgive me if my demeanour is a little patronizing; I'm not trying to start a flame war, merely to illustrate that there really is no way you can sensibly conclude any answer other than "one." The sentence simply doesn't make semantic sense under any other interpretation. To assume, at this point, that Rand is somehow a separate being from Lews Therin is to simply disregard every single chapter about Rand in Towers of Midnight. And if you're going throw out an entire book's worth of material, you've rendered any further discussion moot. There's simply nothing I can say to you.

You're not correct. But I can't argue with you if you're going to selectively ignore entire novels in the series. It would be like trying to have a debate about raising the speed limit on Main Street, in which your first point was "There's no such thing as Main Street."

There's simply no productive response.

Sodas
12-09-2010, 12:28 AM
No, actually. It doesn't prove that the taint created the LTT voice. I personally believe that the taint created the voice, but Nynaeve's delving is not sufficient to prove that. If I were a constructor (WHICH I AM NOT), I could argue that the taint merely supplied the right conditions for Rand to create the voice himself.

Well, at some level Rand had to create the Voice. I guess the point of differentiation would be at what level.

I just don't agree with the Constructors, who believe ultimately that Rand's persona controlled the creation of the Voice himself, consciously or subconsciously. I feel that is evidenced by the fact that Rand is nearly reintegrated in TGS Ch.15, under his normal stress levels. I rather feel the better explanation was that because the Darkness could not enter TAR and/or Dreamstate, that Rand was unconsciously reintegrated together. It is, ihmo, a direct correlation. If it was all about "setting the right conditions," then why did LTT/Rand reintegrate in TGS Ch.15 if no other stress/event occured to make that particular moment special?

My feeling is this : Rand was LTT from the start. He always had the memories. After Falme, LTT was triggered which drove him to reclaim Callandor. But as Rand learned to Channel and touch Saidin, the Taint began to built Darkness upon his mind. The Darkness then split Rand's persona in two, between his current persona and his past life. It then created a Voice, mad, out of the former life. It was something that Rand feared more than spiders or fades, to haunt his mind.

After Rand cleansed the Taint, the Darkness could no longer grow, and wasn't "resupplied" by fresh Taint. Slowly, LTT became more sane, and more conscious of his own self. The former persona was still there, but growing closer to his true self.

Think of it like a water droplet that is split in two by a knife. As the knife is let up, the droplet bound by it's own surface tension tries to resume it's shape.

Only here, the Taint's Darkness still lay upon Rand's mind, slowly weakening, but still enough to split Rand's persona in two. By the time we get to TGS, Rand and LTT have nearly merged, when Rand is in the Dreamstate, that difference is almost non-existant, and the two personas are one. It becomes obvious that something physical was holding the merging from completing. Rand and LTT both come to the point in TGS that they realize that they need to do things better this time, so that TG doesn't end in another breaking and Saidin being reTainted again. So Rand and LTT, holding the entire pattern, cured himself of the Taint's effect on his own mind by blocking it with the Light. And thus, the remaining Darkness was ended, the two personas came back together as One (that's why it's called reintegration, not integration), and they are One life, but Rand now speaks as either Voice. Rand is now both Rand and the Real Authentic LTT.

You may disagree, and that is your right, but there it is in a nutshell.

So, Sodas, if Rand and Lews Therin are not two men, how many men are they?

One. I don't disagree at all, but I'm not sure you understand where I come from.

LTT and Rand are the same man, but I just don't buy the myth that "men" means the same consciousness. I feel it has a more universal meaning pertaining to Heroes of the Horn and their many (slightly different) incarnations.


Auras danced around her and images flickered, more than Min had ever seen around anyone, thousands it seemed, cascading over one another. Those multitudes of images and auras flashed by too quickly for her to make out any clearly, but she was certain they indicated more adventures than a woman could have in one lifetime. Strangely, some were connected to an ugly man who was older than she, and others to an ugly man who was much younger, yet somehow Min knew they were the same man.

Seeker
12-11-2010, 12:14 PM
Quote] My feeling is this : Rand was LTT from the start. [/quote]

Absolutely!
I agree.


He always had the memories.

Yes

Rand - and every other character in the WOTverse – has memories of his former lives buried deep in his subconscious. That's why Rand has the dream about Shayol Ghul so early on. That's why it feels familiar to him.

Rand's memories just came to the surface. Probably because they were meant to. Though I wouldn't rule out Rand's subconscious mind actively pushing them to the surface. He died with a huge chip on his shoulder. That much guilt weighing down on a soul is going to manifest in his next incarnation. Rand feels personally responsible for destroying paradise. He's going to have innate urge to fight, to do things right this time. Such overpowering feelings in the subconscious push LTT's memories out of the realm of dreams and into the waking mind.

After Falme, LTT was triggered which drove him to reclaim Callandor.


This is where we diverge. Lews Therin did not get reactivated, Lews Therin was never dormant. Lews Therin was active from the moment he took his first breath on the slopes of Dragonmount. Tam took Lews Therin back to the Two Rivers and named him “Rand.”

But as Rand learned to Channel and touch Saidin, the Taint began to built Darkness upon his mind. The Darkness then split Rand's persona in two, between his current persona and his past life.


It then created a Voice, mad, out of the former life. It was something that Rand feared more than spiders or fades, to haunt his mind.


I agree. But I don't think the taint was trying to split Rand along divisions of his various lifetimes. More, I think the taint was trying to induce disharmony in his mind. Exaggerate guilt, emphasize sadness and pain. The Shadow wanted Rand so miserable that he destroyed the world for them. That was Plan A. The taint programmed Rand with self-loathing, it confounded his mind with circular reasoning, making him unable to step beyond his immediate reactions.

He blamed himself for Ilyena, for Moiraine, for Liah and lacked the reasoning skills to analyze those situations and accept that he wasn't actually culpable. The taint filled Rand's mind with the voice of his own self-loathing and mistrust, the voice that told him he needed to harden himself, to avoid trusting people. The voice that told him he deserved to die. The voice lamented his failures, reminding Rand constantly of his own inadequacies, making it impossible for Rand to forgive himself and move on. The resulting nervous breakdown was inevitable. The voice drove Rand mad. The taint put the voice into his mind but it was Rand who named the voice “Lews Therin.”

After Rand cleansed the Taint, the Darkness could no longer grow, and wasn't "resupplied" by fresh Taint. Slowly, LTT became more sane, and more conscious of his own self. The former persona was still there, but growing closer to his true self.

Think of it like a water droplet that is split in two by a knife. As the knife is let up, the droplet bound by it's own surface tension tries to resume it's shape.

Only here, the Taint's Darkness still lay upon Rand's mind, slowly weakening, but still enough to split Rand's persona in two. By the time we get to TGS, Rand and LTT have nearly merged, when Rand is in the Dreamstate, that difference is almost non-existant, and the two personas are one. It becomes obvious that something physical was holding the merging from completing. Rand and LTT both come to the point in TGS that they realize that they need to do things better this time, so that TG doesn't end in another breaking and Saidin being reTainted again. So Rand and LTT, holding the entire pattern, cured himself of the Taint's effect on his own mind by blocking it with the Light. And thus, the remaining Darkness was ended, the two personas came back together as One (that's why it's called reintegration, not integration), and they are One life, but Rand now speaks as either Voice. Rand is now both Rand and the Real Authentic LTT.

Rand has always been the Real Authentic LTT.

Just because he didn't remember doesn't mean he wasn't always Lews Therin. The concept of identity is greater than simply the sum of a person's memories. This is especially true in the WOTverse where it is a proven fact that people have souls. How much of your own life have you forgotten? And yet you are still you.

Sodas
12-12-2010, 01:56 AM
Well I'm glad you mostly agree.

1. I don't agree that memories are stored subconciously.

Maybe that is because I don't like the term. Where in the books have we seen that word used?

Maybe because when you say subconious, it means a part of the concious, which is something the brain makes. My opinion is more based upon the RJ quote I provided. I think memories are stored in the Soul. Even when one dies in WoT, the memories continue to be stored in the soul long after the body is dead.

2. I definately disagree with saying that LTT was active the entire time. If he was, how'd he fall for the ol' "I'm the dark one" routine by ishamael? Maybe you mean something else when you write active?

I prefer Falme because Rand's persona suddenly shifts. He begins dreaming LTT's dreams. He yearns for Callandor. Falme was a Pattern Level Event. And the Horn did call back all the Heroes. And the next book is called, "the Dragon Reborn."

a dragonburned fool
12-12-2010, 10:10 AM
Well, Terez, it might look as stating the same again and again, but I really do believe, that discussing this more is still (excuse me for the pun) constructive. You took a quite unconvincing theory, as it was in Callandor's treatment, and turned it in something quite possible. I'm truly in awe about this achievement. I have no real problems with the possibility fo the Construct theory, there are points against it, but they are still not fatal for it. What I have problems to understand is, how are all the alternative theories suddenly invalid, while all the Costruct Theory does is explanations, not refutations. The Construct theory is a scenario fitting more or less sufficiently to the facts. There are other scenarios, and, unless serious flaws are discovered in every other theory, they should be considered still possible. I cannot say anything about all other theories, but for my variety of realer theory, I never still have seen a convincing refutation, or even serious reason to mark it unlikely or less likely.

I still see reasons to regard the Construct theory as less likely than the realer one. One of them is that the Construct theory relies too much on the modern psychology based on research of brain functionality, as we have in the real world. I can even understand how this approach would feel "realistic" in contrast of some deus ex machina explanation of the "this is just magic, because it's fantasy book" brand. The truth however is, that psychology in Randland simply cannot be the same as the psycology of the real world, exactly if you want to avoid the unrealistic "just magic" feel in WoT world. I mean, there are tons of facts in Randland, that must be brought in consistence with brain functionality, or else it would be a total mess of inconsistent world. The souls in this world are as important factor for the psychological state of the person as brain and maybe even more. There are also lot of other outer factors tha influence directly the psychology like compulsion, taint, 13*13 turning to the Shadow, chora trees and who knows what else. Additionally with memories in particular the situation is even more complicated, since memories can be obtained in many various ways without bothering either the brain or the soul. Under these conditions the psychology of Randland just cannot be the same as the psychology of our world. The brain is still a major factor, so modern psychology is to be considered, but it's only one of the factors - this shouldn't be forgotten.

Now, in the case of Rand's access to LTT's memories, it's quite safe to assume, that this access is via the soul. Not via Rand's brain or anything else in Rand's biography. It's exactly via the aspect of Rand's soul that's responsible for it's consistency through ages and incarnations. Therefore we have to consider first implications of how the soul will fit into the situation, and only after that we can turn our eye to the problems of the modern psychology.

Now, in his time LTT developed a personality, died in a known to us state of said personality, and all this is stored somewhere accessible for the soul. This means that this personality is already costructed 3000 years ago and stays ready for use if right conditions might be met. Yes, it's abnormal for a dead personality to be reactivated again, but I sincerely cannot understand, how nobody wonders, how the Wheel manages to keep it abnormal. Because, sincerely, it's a great miracle of the WoT Universe, that such anomalies as Rand's access to LTT doesn't happen much more often, how the current lifes are kept separated from the influence of previous incarnation, since everything is there in the soul. C'mon, it's natural that a situation may occur when a soul might get confused about whish exaclty personality stored in itself should it run in an occasion. The connection of the current personality with the body and thread helps here of course, but if the circumstances interfere with this very connection, then what would prevent the soul from personality mismatch? It can happen even with a personality originated from a different soul, like when Mat reacted to the AS Healing him as Aemon.

Back to Rand, when he got his access to LTT's memories, he was not able to cope with them, for whatever reasons, but there were processes in his soul that were not processed by the personality "Rand". This means, that there is disparity between the state of the soul and the state of Rand. There was an overflow in his soul. Is it strange, that this thing might be of the sort that just cannot be left unoccupied. The soul was, for whatever reasons, short of processing power, so isn't it the most natural way otu to pich up what it already has in hand? And it has stored there the LTT's personality, something suitable to process LTT's meories, because it did exactly this task during LTT's whole life. And so LTT's personality was re-activated.

I don't have problems with Rand's struggle against accepting LTT's heritage. Without that struggle Rand would most likely be able to take over LTT, since Rand has the tremendous advantage of being linked to the body during his whole life. I don't have also problem with Rand needing justification for his reluctance to deal with LTT. But for him to take all the trouble to form gradually a construct, while all this time there is in hand a ready to use prebuilt personality? Why the heck should Rand's subconscious do it the hard way, if subconsciousnesses are widely known for their tendency to prefer the easy way?

And to be not unduly long, I'd mention now no more than one another reason more, I judge the Construct theory less likely. Since it states, that the only reason for the existence of LTT's voice is to not take as his own the most traumatic LTT memories, then why the heck the voice appears just after Rand accepts every single troublesome memory of LTT as his own, Rand's in this line: Maybe . . . Lews Therin said, shockingly lucid, not a hint of madness to him. He spoke softly, reverently. Why? Could it be . . . Maybe it's so that we can have a second chance.? I never have seen answer from the Construct theory to this question no matter how insistently I asked.

Seeker
12-12-2010, 12:07 PM
Well I'm glad you mostly agree.

1. I don't agree that memories are stored subconciously.

Maybe that is because I don't like the term. Where in the books have we seen that word used?

A term doesn't have to be used in the books to applicable to the characters in question, especially when you are applying a modern understanding of psychology to a culture that is essentially not far beyond blood-letting as a medical practice. It is a well-established fact that human beings have an unconscious mind and modern-day writers will write from that perspective. The books also never make mention of antibiotics but are you going to try to convince me that, in the Age of Legends, society didn't make use of such medicine?

You'd be foolish to do so. Not every healer in the Age of Legends was an Aes Sedai.

You're trying to avoid making logical inferences, Sodas. You're trying to take every statement at bald face value. The problem is that language itself is structured in such a way that most every statement carries with it certain logical implications.

Suppose a teacher has four classes in a day.

In Period 1, he teaches 20 students.
In Period 2, he teaches 15 students.
In Period 3, he teaches 25 students
In Period 4, he teaches 11 students.

At lunch, while in the staff room, the teacher says to one of his colleagues, "We had perfect attendance in period 1 today. All of my students showed up."

What does the teacher mean?

Obviously, what he's trying to say is that all 20 students in his first period class were in attendance.

But a strict, literal interpretation of his statement, lacking the logical inferences that come almost automatically in conversation, would have you believe that 71 students showed up to his first period class.

Language isn't meant to be taken literally all the time. (or even most of the time).


Maybe because when you say subconious, it means a part of the concious, which is something the brain makes. My opinion is more based upon the RJ quote I provided. I think memories are stored in the Soul. Even when one dies in WoT, the memories continue to be stored in the soul long after the body is dead.

I have no problem with this interpretation.

Nut an interesting quandry is "How much does a person's soul intersect with a person's mind?"




2. I definately disagree with saying that LTT was active the entire time. If he was, how'd he fall for the ol' "I'm the dark one" routine by ishamael? Maybe you mean something else when you write active?

Once again, you're equating memory with identity. They are not the same


I prefer Falme because Rand's persona suddenly shifts. He begins dreaming LTT's dreams. He yearns for Callandor. Falme was a Pattern Level Event. And the Horn did call back all the Heroes. And the next book is called, "the Dragon Reborn."

I could make the exact same argument about Fal Dara at the end of the Eye of the World. Rand's personality goes through a shift there too.

Res_Ipsa
12-12-2010, 12:12 PM
Should think about getting this submitted to an academic journal for peer review.

Short response: There is no spoon

Long response: There is a spoon but it never existed in the first place.

Terez
12-12-2010, 12:53 PM
Well, Terez, it might look as stating the same again and again, but I really do believe, that discussing this more is still (excuse me for the pun) constructive.
I agree; it's more a matter of the people who whine every time it comes up. I was acknowledging fault for bringing up a subject that was annoying to some even before the subject was made essentially moot with TGS (few believe otherwise).

You took a quite unconvincing theory, as it was in Callandor's treatment, and turned it in something quite possible.
Thank you, though there are really only a few points that Callandor and I disagreed on. For example, he liked to fully integrate (if you will pardon my pun) the construct and barrier degradation theories. He didn't do it in such a way that the construct theory was necessarily dependent on the barrier degradation theory, but he did usually argue from that angle. I find the barrier degradation theory to be pretty logical, but I don't believe it so wholeheartedly as construct theory, and in fact my first formal theory was an alternate one, though I was a noob and didn't much back it up with quotes. I did in the comments to an extent, though.

Barrier degradation is logical mainly because of timing. It's easy enough to understand that Lews Therin's memories were always there, and that Rand was vaguely aware of them in his dreams (even the first one - our first big whopping clue that Rand was that guy in the prologue reborn). But it seems logical to believe that this is somewhat normal, if not for everyone, then maybe for Dreamers. Falme was different altogether, because Rand's memories were of the spaces between lives, which are not part of 'Lews Therin's memories' - not a single instance between the inception of 'Lews Therin's voice' and TGS.

Aside from that dream, some weaves that Rand might very well have just 'come up with', and Falme, the first verified memory was in TSR ch. 9 - just after Rand channeled massive amounts of the taint with Callandor. The memories started coming much more frequently TFOH ch. 2, after Rand's battle with Asmodean at Rhuidean - even more massive amounts of the taint, even considering that Rand held only half of what the Choedan Kal could give. Since we know that the memories are real, then we know it's not just a massive taint delusion, so it seems logical to assume that the taint on Rand's brain somehow eroded whatever stood between Rand and his past life memories. It is also logical to believe that the Wheel intended for this to happen, or perhaps simply wove the very likely occurrence into its Pattern.

Back to Callandor (as opposed to Callandor), another thing about his arguments that frustrated me was the whole "a personality is the sum of its memories; Rand does not have all of Lews Therin's memories: (ergo) 'Lews Therin' is not the real Lews Therin's personality" argument. It wasn't that Callandor didn't understand the real reasons why that personality was not 'the real Lews Therin' - the fact that it rarely expressed useful memories, and the fact that it most often vented Rand's obviously suppressed thoughts and emotions, and most importantly, the fact that it conveniently gave Rand a means of pretending that Lews Therin was not, in fact, him - it was just an arbitrary argument thrown into the mix that never made much sense to me.

There were some other nitpicks between us, but overall we were in agreement on nearly everything.

What I have problems to understand is, how are all the alternative theories suddenly invalid, while all the Costruct Theory does is explanations, not refutations. The Construct theory is a scenario fitting more or less sufficiently to the facts. There are other scenarios, and, unless serious flaws are discovered in every other theory, they should be considered still possible.
First of all, this is something that the construct theory has always addressed, since well before TGS (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=39587#poststop). I have always liked using RJ's Schroedinger quote to demonstrate the point. The 'real' theory is the easy explanation; the 'construct' theory is the artistic one, the one with thematic significance that truly resonates. It was the real'ers who had trouble comprehending alternate theories.

I still see reasons to regard the Construct theory as less likely than the realer one. One of them is that the Construct theory relies too much on the modern psychology based on research of brain functionality, as we have in the real world.I don't agree. Modern psychology is simply the study of human mental ailments that have been around for a long, long time. It is not required that the reader be familiar with these things to make the connection that Rand's motives might well explain what is going on with 'Lews Therin'. In fact, modern psychology might tend to confuse the situation, since Rand's disorder is not like any real one at its root because it has a supernatural element. It is not schizophrenia or MPD - it is something else altogether. The theory is dependent on logic, not on modern psychology.

That being said, RJ did make some obvious references to the psychological disorders that are most celebrated in pop culture (including the aforementioned). And with reference to the aforementioned thematic resonance, I believe that the issue of 'legal insanity' was probably one of RJ's most important themes for the entire series. You might say he stepped up onto a political soapbox for that one.

If anyone fits the definition of 'legal insanity' - the term has no real meaning outside of a court of law, at least in the US - then Lews Therin in the prologue of TEOTW, before Ishamael's 'Healing', is a perfect textbook example. He literally could not distinguish at all between right and wrong, which is the definition.

But in the US, there is a great deal of noise made about these people who go on murdering sprees and then plead not guilty for their crimes by reason of insanity. RJ was pretty liberal for a Southerner from what I can determine, but I think he was certainly in the 'tough on crime' camp, which would make him less likely to sympathize with these people who will not plead guilty for their crimes.

So he gave us Lews Therin - a character all of us could sympathize with when it comes to his crimes - and he made him repentant. Lews Therin knew that he was not truly culpable for his crimes, but he was so horrified by what he had done that he did not care. He took his own life to pay for it, and when he was reborn, and he remembered, he continued to punish himself for it even though he could not bring himself to admit that it had actually been him.

C'mon, it's natural that a situation may occur when a soul might get confused about whish exaclty personality stored in itself should it run in an occasion.I don't believe that personalities 'run' the soul. I believe that the soul is shaped into various personalities, but the soul itself is always in control. Usually the soul only has to manifest one personality - Birgitte shows that each personality is probably the same in many ways at the core - but between lives, it can manifest all personalities without any contradiction. I believe that Rand could have easily been the same if not for his mental issues.

Back to Rand, when he got his access to LTT's memories, he was not able to cope with them, for whatever reasons, but there were processes in his soul that were not processed by the personality "Rand". This means, that there is disparity between the state of the soul and the state of Rand.I believe this was the cause of the disparity before he realized where the memories were coming from, but that after, the need to deny that he was Lews Therin was the strongest cause by far, aside from the taint's influence.

But for him to take all the trouble to form gradually a construct, while all this time there is in hand a ready to use prebuilt personality?This is a misconstruance of the construct theory. Rand never 'took the trouble' to do anything - the creation of the construct was completely subconscious, and a result of his fear and denial (and the taint, of course). The 'prebuilt' personality was anathema to Rand. He suppressed it every chance he got, but all the while, he was becoming Lews Therin. He displayed Lews Therin's mannerisms - the true mannerisms of Lews Therin, as opposed to the 'madman' antics of the 'voice - and he remembered Lews Therin's memories directly, as opposed to the 'voice' only whining about Ilyena. He was becoming Lews Therin (again, or rather a mixture of himself and Lews Therin), while pretending that the 'voice' was Lews Therin, and of course he eventually realized that they had been the same man all along - the differences were a simple matter of memories.

Why the heck should Rand's subconscious do it the hard way, if subconsciousnesses are widely known for their tendency to prefer the easy way?This was, by far, the easiest way for Rand to pretend that he was not Lews Therin. For example, the first time we 'hear Lews Therin's voice' is here:

TITLE - The Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 2 - Rhuidean

Ilyena never flashed her temper at me when she was angry with herself. When she gave me the rough side of her tongue, it was because she... His mind froze for an instant. He had never met a woman named Ilyena in his life. But he could summon up a face for the name, dimly; a pretty face, skin like cream, golden hair exactly the shade of Elayne's. This had to be the madness. Remembering an imaginary woman. Perhaps one day he would find himself having conversations with people who were not there.
The difficult thing to do would have been to continue to question where that thought had come from. The easy thing to do was to assume that it was a momentary madness - a voice in his head. He didn't think of it as a voice here, but as soon as he realizes where the memories are coming from, that is what he does. Because it is the easiest thing for him to do. He can either pretend like Lews Therin is in his head trying to take over, or he can face the horrifying notion that he was Lews Therin.

Since it states, that the only reason for the existence of LTT's voice is to not take as his own the most traumatic LTT memories, then why the heck the voice appears just after Rand accepts every single troublesome memory of LTT as his own, Rand's in this line: ? I never have seen answer from the Construct theory to this question no matter how insistently I asked.Precisely because the voice was a construct all along, actually. Rand created it, and he had full control over it.

In other words, Rand's acceptance of those memories as his own - finally - did not magically inform him that the voice had never been real. He was in the habit of talking to Lews Therin; it seemed natural to him.

Rand, in a sense, was aware of this truth all along, but much earlier in TGS, he began to tacitly acknowledge that he and Lews Therin were one and the same - only tacitly. It might have been spurred on by the conversation he had with Min in ch. 15, along with meeting Moridin in the dream, but when Rand finally equated his own crimes to Lews Therin's, after he tried to kill his father, it was overwhelmingly depressing to him. So, just like Lews Therin, he decided to kill himself, but this time, he talked himself into taking the whole Pattern out with him so he would never have to be reborn again.

The illusion that Lews Therin was another man was a convenient illusion, truly, but the core of the issue was the mind-numbing guilt and grief that came from his murder of Ilyena. He had to face that in order to stop suppressing those memories, and when he did, he was granted momentary access to all of his past life memories. Before that point, he was hardly balanced mentally, so there is no reason to assume that the construct should have disappeared. Anyway, this moment where he knew all of his past life memories was most likely the Pattern Level Event of which Brandon spoke. These memories gave him the perspective that he needed in order to realize that he and Lews Therin were not two men, and never had been, which in turn gave him the freedom to accept those memories fully as his own.

And that is where the 'real' theory falls flat from a logical perspective. If Rand had thought that he and Lews Therin were not two men 'any more', then the real theory might make sense, if only from the aforementioned perspective of Schroedinger. But Rand said they were not two men, and never had been.

a dragonburned fool
12-12-2010, 12:55 PM
Rand - and every other character in the WOTverse – has memories of his former lives buried deep in his subconscious. That's why Rand has the dream about Shayol Ghul so early on. That's why it feels familiar to him.

Rand's memories just came to the surface. Probably because they were meant to. Though I wouldn't rule out Rand's subconscious mind actively pushing them to the surface. He died with a huge chip on his shoulder. That much guilt weighing down on a soul is going to manifest in his next incarnation. Rand feels personally responsible for destroying paradise. He's going to have innate urge to fight, to do things right this time. Such overpowering feelings in the subconscious push LTT's memories out of the realm of dreams and into the waking mind.


This is where we diverge. Lews Therin did not get reactivated, Lews Therin was never dormant. Lews Therin was active from the moment he took his first breath on the slopes of Dragonmount. Tam took Lews Therin back to the Two Rivers and named him “Rand.” If every person in Randland had the memories of past lives buried in the subconscious, that would show somehow. Something deep in subconscious means that serious stress will have the chance to bring it to the surface. Like the stress that would activate a channeler's ability or break a wilder's block. And we wouldn't have the situation for Rand al'Thor being the only known case of somebody having leaks from former incarnations for two bloody Ages. Old Blood doesn't count since it's not soul memory but ancestral one. And it always striked me how they in Randland, knowing for shure there is reincarnation, have no single trace of a concept of inter-incarnational karma. What a person did during a life, he has to pay, what his ancestors did - he has to pay: these concepts are there. But nobody takes care about problems done by a former incarnation influencing the current. While if everybody had memories in the subconscious, problems from former lives would show, and people would most likely rationalize this as a kind of karma.

Also, I strongly doubt that memories from former lives are stored in the soul. Because we have too many different ways to get memories from foreign souls (Eelfinns, Old Blood, Rhuidean glass columns, wolves directly sharing experience, who knows what else). So the soul must be only a means to access them, not the storage itself. Actually we don't have any proof that anybody who is not a Hero of the horn would remember any of his own former incarnations even between lives.

I would even say, that Rand and LTT were actually two different men. Because of being two different bodies and two different threads divided by a period of three thousand years. Quite enough to declare them two different men, don't you think? When Rand said this about "and never were", I had the feeling he makes not a constatation, but a declaration. Like a declaration of war usually means there were no war before, but the declaration itself makes it a state of war. Or closer to our case, a declaration of taking a possession of something - you declare a possession and it becomes so. In Rand's case what he declares a possession, is not of spatial, but of temporal nature, he takes possession of whole his past. So the word "never" is the best to be used.

Terez
12-12-2010, 01:08 PM
If every person in Randland had the memories of past lives buried in the subconscious, that would show somehow.
Who says that it does not? Others have had instances that might be similar to Rand's early experiences with his memories, such as Mat with Aemon and Perrin in his own dreams.

Old Blood doesn't count since it's not soul memory but ancestral one.
We are not sure that Mat's memories of Aemon are Old Blood.

we don't have any proof that anybody who is not a Hero of the horn would remember any of his own former incarnations even between lives.
Do you think that Graendal's patients were Heroes of the Horn?

I would even say, that Rand and LTT were actually two different men. Because of being two different bodies and two different threads divided by a period of three thousand years. Quite enough to declare them two different men, don't you think? When Rand said this about "and never were", I had the feeling he makes not a constatation, but a declaration. Like a declaration of war usually means there were no war before, but the declaration itself makes it a state of war. Or closer to our case, a declaration of taking a possession of something - you declare a possession and it becomes so. In Rand's case what he declares a possession, is not of spatial, but of temporal nature, he takes possession of whole his past. So the word "never" is the best to be used.
This is contradicted by several people, including Min's viewings of Birgitte and Gaidal Cain - sometimes older, sometimes younger, but somehow she knew they were the same man - and Birgitte's own interpretation of her many lives.

a dragonburned fool
12-12-2010, 02:16 PM
Who says that it does not? Others have had instances that might be similar to Rand's early experiences with his memories, such as Mat with Aemon and Perrin in his own dreams.Yet, people in know about Old Blood experience, while everybody is quite sure that remembering own past lives is clearly impossible. While everybody truly believes in reincarnation. Wouldn't it be ndtural to accuse every occurence of Old Blood as past incarnations? But nothing like that happens. Wouldn't there be somewhere in the libraries mentions about people knowing things from the past surprisingly well? If only select people would have memories in their subconscious, it would be more than likely that experiences like Rand's early ones would pass unnoticed. But if every, or just many people would have it, then it would show somehow. there are too many possible stresses in the world to not let subconscious things get surfaced quite often.


Do you think that Graendal's patients were Heroes of the Horn?No. We just don't know their memories were from their own past lives. Most cases of past lives memories in the books we have seen, are actually from other souls. Don't understand me wrongly, I believe, that most likely they have memories from own past lives, but the possibility that it's not so are quite real. And even more indicative, that exactly graendal, who had all that patients, is convinced, that nobody get reborn in the way the Dragon is supposed to be, and she is one of the last to accept to thenk about Rand as about LTT. So from the cases with her patients Grandal concluded rather that different incarnations are different men.


This is contradicted by several people, including Min's viewings of Birgitte and Gaidal Cain - sometimes older, sometimes younger, but somehow she knew they were the same man - and Birgitte's own interpretation of her many lives.No, when one really gets old life experiences and copes with them, one becomes one men. All Heroes did so. what I'm claiming is, that this doesn't happen automatically. One may say, you do not get experiences you do not paid for somehow.

In that interview, when RJ answered the question, why people in Randland don't see hope in furter incarnations, he said, they regard it as something another man bearing your soul would have. That's what is the usual perspective. Integration with past memories is not something automatically granted, it's achievement requiring effort.

Terez
12-12-2010, 03:43 PM
Yet, people in know about Old Blood experience, while everybody is quite sure that remembering own past lives is clearly impossible.
This just isn't true.

While everybody truly believes in reincarnation. Wouldn't it be ndtural to accuse every occurence of Old Blood as past incarnations?Who says that they are not? But I think this is rather far afield from the main point.

No, when one really gets old life experiences and copes with them, one becomes one men.Min was seeing Gaidal incarnate, not Gaidal-the-dead-Hero. She saw that they were the same man regardless of any coping or lack thereof.

All Heroes did so. what I'm claiming is, that this doesn't happen automatically. One may say, you do not get experiences you do not paid for somehow.Experiences have nothing to do with the fact that the soul is always the same person. It's nature vs nurture again - the two together make the personality, but nature=soul (probably genetics to a lesser degree, as in, the soul is matched to genetics that meet the criteria), and nurture=incarnation (experiences).

In that interview, when RJ answered the question, why people in Randland don't see hope in furter incarnations, he said, they regard it as something another man bearing your soul would have. That's what is the usual perspective. Integration with past memories is not something automatically granted, it's achievement requiring effort.I'm not sure where the point of contention is in this.

Sodas
12-12-2010, 11:58 PM
Experiences have nothing to do with the fact that the soul is always the same person.

The author says differently.


Everybody fears death because the being that is reborn, while possessing the same soul, will not be the same person. The fear is simple. I will cease to exist. Someone else will exist, bearing my soul. But I will cease. I have met many believers in reincarnation, and most of them seem to fear death just as much as anyone else.

Terez
12-13-2010, 01:16 AM
This is what people who don't know any better fear - not the truth. The context makes this crystal clear. (You know - the part you didn't bold.)

Sodas
12-13-2010, 02:09 AM
The word Jordan used was everybody. Everybody fears death. Not just a select ignorant few.

Reading comprehension failure.

Rand is not the same person as LTT. Nor did LTT have to be reborn as Rand. RJ said that "it's quite possible that someone other than Rand could be the reborn soul of the Dragon Reborn." There are no guaranties that you will be the same person in the next life. Everyone knows and fears that fact.

But it is a fact. :D

a dragonburned fool
12-13-2010, 10:55 AM
Thank you, Sodas, that's what the quote I meant. In addition to the point Sodas made here, in this quote RJ is comparing the case with real-world reincarnation believes, and that, having in mind the unusuality of this way to look at reincarnation, seems to indicate, that RJ might have this feeling about the idea of reincarnation in general.

Too often in the series, when "soul" is mentioned, it strikes me odd, it feels out of touch with the instinctive notion of soul most of us have from the western cultural tradition. I remember other here at the forum had difficulties with this moment too. At least some of the two-soulers of the old times I'm sure came to their believes because they took RJ's "soul" as the default idea of soul=person. But this just doesn't fit into the use of the soul concept in the series.

The soul is not "the same person", because it's not any person at all. the soul is only the seed for a person, a matrix and platform to develop persons. The soul to persons is what DNA is to living beings. As such DNA is not a living being, it's just a molecule, and itf it's cloned, it can create more than one organism. Different incarnations of the same soul are like different clones from the same genetic material. In this the soul-persons relation paralels the theme of the many worlds with one Constant between them, or the theme of the spokes of the Wheel, that come back again and again, every time a little but different, but essentially the same Age. The motive is the same.


Yet, people in know about Old Blood experience, while everybody is quite sure that remembering own past lives is clearly impossible.
This just isn't true.

While everybody truly believes in reincarnation. Wouldn't it be natural to accuse every occurence of Old Blood as past incarnations?
Who says that they are not? But I think this is rather far afield from the main point. Well, let call it far from the main point, once we agree about how unlikely is the idea that past-life memories may be in the subconscious of every randlander. C'mon, if you have a puritan society, you just cannot cope without various strange outbursts of what originaly were suppressed sexual desires. And the reincarnation belief in Randland is official dogma. So there is no problem about using it as excuse. In real world, when we have a culture, where the system of believes includes a God willing to speak with people, we invariably see people claiming God has spoken to them. And in the real world, when we have society believing in reincarnation, we invariably have claims that this or that was a result of a past life. Why do we see nothing like this in WoT-world? Why if there are characters claiming that it's "of course impossible" for anybody to have memories from other lives, there is no a single reference to some legends, or vilage idiots, or impostors claiming they have memories from past lives? Wouldn't such reference be relevant to Rand's problem if the culture knew about them?

Terez
12-13-2010, 11:24 AM
Thank you, Sodas, that's what the quote I meant. In addition to the point Sodas made here, in this quote RJ is comparing the case with real-world reincarnation believes, and that, having in mind the unusuality of this way to look at reincarnation, seems to indicate, that RJ might have this feeling about the idea of reincarnation in general.
It is an explanation of why people fear death. It is not a truth about the world.

But all of this is quite aside from the main issue which you seem to be avoiding. Even if it were at all logical to assume that past life personalities can be real and separate from other personalities of the same soul, why do you think it is logical to believe that the VOICE=Lews Therin, and Rand=Rand? Because Rand exhibits the thoughts and traits of Lews Therin far more often than the voice does, while the voice has the obvious attributes of the sort of voice a madman hears. It is easy enough in a sense to assume that this fits Lews Therin because of the mad acts of his last day alive, but Lews Therin the man was far more than - and far different from - the Lews Therin of that one day. The personalities such as they were began merging within Rand very early on in the events of the Lews Therin phenomenon, while the 'voice' continued to vent Rand's own suppressed thoughts, whether they had anything to do with Lews Therin or not.

a dragonburned fool
12-13-2010, 12:14 PM
Even if it were at all logical to assume that past life personalities can be real and separate from other personalities of the same soul, why do you think it is logical to believe that the VOICE=Lews Therin, and Rand=Rand? Because Rand exhibits the thoughts and traits of Lews Therin far more often than the voice does, while the voice has the obvious attributes of the sort of voice a madman hears. It is easy enough in a sense to assume that this fits Lews Therin because of the mad acts of his last day alive, but Lews Therin the man was far more than - and far different from - the Lews Therin of that one day. The personalities such as they were began merging within Rand very early on in the events of the Lews Therin phenomenon, while the 'voice' continued to vent Rand's own suppressed thoughts, whether they had anything to do with Lews Therin or not.Because what LTT experienced, or let say it straight, suffered in this last day of his, changed him thoroughly. As is often to be seen with people suffering really nasty trauma - they visibly change the way they think, behave, everything. It was a trauma hard wnough to color for him in a new light all of his previous life, all of his previous traits, believes, inclinations etc. He cannot think the same way he thought about Illyena earlier AND in the same time know how Illyena ended. He cannot think the same way as he thought earlier about his fellow male Aes Sedai AND in the same time know on his own example what these men are doomed to inflict. It's a too important bit added to the whole of his life, to not change the perspective on everything else in his personality. So you cannot just take him as he was before few years and go on. This way you wouldn't take him whole as he is. If a person lives after the trauma further events in his life may more or less heal the trauma, but it will not come automatically, it should be new experiences there. LTT had no such further experiences though. He died right after experiencing and considering the trauma.

And now he gets abnormaly reactivated, having no own body, but looking at a very different world through the eyes of some guy, who seems slowly but surely going to cause the same shit LTT did in his time, and been able to do absolutely nothing about it and even believing there is actually nothing to do, but to simply end with it. And under these circumstances you seriously expect to hear in him the clever statesman, loving husband and OPological genius he was before? I for my part find it more that logical for him to start from where he ended last time, not from any random point of his life, he never had the chance to reconcile with his last traumatic experience.

And once assuming he might start from where he ended the last time, his behavior in Rand's head matches his state quite good. He begins almost classicaly with rejecting the new experience as not real. In his own words: "I'm dead and thei is the Pit of Doom". Later he begins to complain about the madman in his head. Later he begins to try to argue with Rand with the goal to do teh most sensible thing from his perspective - to die for to avoid the realy great damage that will come inevitably. Later, when Rand finds out that the claim there's nothing more they can do to him is false, and when Rand channels TP, LTT begins slowly to realize, that this guy in his head actually can make even more damage than LTT ever had, i.e. slowly he begun to understand that the story is not over. And so, when on Dragonmount Rand finally accepted being LTT, stopped fighting with LTT and because of it was up to do not to speak what, finally LTT found the conditions to think sanely. and it was the LTT partition of Rand's mind that came up with the winning solution.

Terez
12-13-2010, 12:22 PM
So you are basically saying that Rand is the real Lews Therin, but the voice in his head is Lews Therin's madness personified?

a dragonburned fool
12-13-2010, 12:30 PM
So you are basically saying that Rand is the real Lews Therin, but the voice in his head is Lews Therin's madness personified?So you are basically saying, that if a person behaves after a heavy trauma like people usually behave in such circumstances, then this person is not a person, but a madness personified?

Terez
12-13-2010, 12:43 PM
Not at all. I'm saying that Rand is Lews Therin, and that his voice is an expression of his subconscious thoughts. It's not really 'mad' in the truest sense of the word - it only seems to be sometimes.

But this:

Was it twice Sammael had attempted his life today, or three times? More? It seemed that he should be able to remember how often someone had tried to kill him. No, not to kill. To bait. Are you still so jealous of me, Tel Janin? When did I ever slight you, or give you one finger less than your due?

Swaying, Rand scrubbed a hand through his hair. There had been something odd about that thought, but he could not recall what. Sammael... No. He could deal with him when... if... No matter. Later. Today Sammael was only a distraction from what was important. He might even be gone.

Vaguely it seemed that there had been no attack after... After what? He recalled countering Sammael's last move with something particularly nasty, but he could not pull the memory to the surface. Not balefire. Mustn't use that. Threatens the fabric of the Pattern. Not even for Ilyena? I would burn the world and use my soul for tinder to hear her laugh again.That is the real Lews Therin, remembering Sammael directly.
This:

"Whatever your crimes are, Taim, they pale beside the Forsaken’s. Have you ever tortured an entire city, made thousands of people assist in breaking each other slowly, in breaking their own loved ones? Semirhage did that, for no more reason than that she could, to prove she could, for the pleasure of it. Have you murdered children? Graendal did. She called it kindness, so they would not suffer after she enslaved their parents and carried them away." He just hoped the other Saldaeans were listening half as closely as Taim; the man had actually leaned forward slightly in interest. He hoped they did not ask too many questions about where all this came from. "Have you given people to Trollocs to eat? All the Forsaken did – prisoners who would not turn always went to the Trollocs, if they weren’t murdered out of hand – but Demandred captured two cities just because he thought the people there had slighted him before he went over to the Shadow, and every man, woman and child went into Trolloc bellies. Mesaana set up schools in the territory she controlled, schools where children and young people were taught the glories of the Dark One, taught to kill their friends who didn’t learn well enough or fast enough. I could go on. I could start from the beginning of the list and go through all thirteen names, adding a hundred crimes as bad to every name. Whatever you’ve done, it doesn’t rank with that. And now you’ve come to accept my pardon, to walk in the Light and submit to me, to battle the Dark One as hard as you ever battled anyone. The Forsaken are reeling; I mean to hunt them all down, eradicate them. And you will help me. For that, you’ve earned your pardon. I tell you true, you’ll probably earn it a hundred times over again before the Last Battle is done."That is the real Lews Therin.

This:

A memory slid across the emptiness. Not his; Lews Therin's. For once he did not care. In an instant he channeled, and a ball of fire enveloped the top of a hill nearly five miles away, a churning mass of pale yellow flame. When it faded, he could see without the looking glass that the hill was lower now, and black at the crest, seemingly melted. Between the three of them, there might be no need for the clans to fight Couladin at all.

Ilyena, my love, forgive me!

The Void trembled; for an instant Rand teetered on the brink of destruction. Waves of the One Power crashed through him in a froth of fear; the taint seemed to solidify around his heart, a reeking stone.

Clutching the rail until his knuckles ached, he forced himself back to calmness, forced the emptiness to hold. Thereafter he refused to listen to the thoughts in his head. Instead he concentrated everything on channeling, on methodically searing one hill after another.The real Lews Therin feels the pain of Ilyena's loss, and suppresses it forcibly.

Sodas
12-14-2010, 02:19 AM
Your welcome adbf.

It's pretty easy to now see where the Construct Theory veered off the road. They seem to somehow believe that "the soul is always the same person." It's definitely wrong, lol, considering everything we know from Jordan and the books point to each incarnation being a fresh new persona.


Q: I have an exiting question, maybe, we heard of making the Forsaken reborn, so has the original body any reflection to the mind of the Forsaken?
RJ: Well, if a Forsaken dies and is reborn naturally, through the Turning of the Wheel, no.
Q: If then the Dark One puts him in a new body?
RJ: Oh, if the Dark One puts him in a new body, it is for all intents and purposes the same person, with a new body. It is a shift of an entire person.

But my favorite still is this one, specifically because it was asked about Rand and Lews Therin.


Q: The question is, with Rand and Lews Therin, do they have one soul or two souls in the body?
RJ: They have one soul with two personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I [cobbled] together.

There is no way anyone can deny, sanely, that Rand and Lews Therin were not two different, separate personalities. The question was always, was LTT real or not? And by Rand merging with LTT in TGS/TOM into both Rand and LTT, it proved that we were right all along.

a dragonburned fool
12-14-2010, 08:48 AM
Not at all. I'm saying that Rand is Lews Therin, and that his voice is an expression of his subconscious thoughts. It's not really 'mad' in the truest sense of the word - it only seems to be sometimes.
Well, we are looking at a world, where not everything that looks like subconscious is actually subconscious. Compulsion, Aes Sedai influence on her Warder, dreamwalkers messages to a dreaming person, DO's words to his Chosen, wolves' thoughts in a head of a wolfbrother - all these may look like some expressions of subconscious thougths, but we know they are not. I grant you, Terez, it might be just subconscious as your scenario is saying, but that's just one of the scenarios. There are another scenarios.

In my scenario LTT in the state he ended his life (in this state, because it's the end of his life and normal personalities are lookig at the whole of their life allways from the latest of their moments on) is re-activated as a separate instance of consciousness in Rand's head, where he cannot control anything about Rand's body, but can sense what Rand experiences. Until now in my discussions with you I focused on explaining how such an re-activation is possible and logical from what a soul nmeans in WoT-world. Now, as you accuse me in avoiding the main point, and knowing that you do not have arguments about the metaphysical possibility of the re-activation as such, I realise I should rather exlplain how I can view the re-activated LTT as the "real LTT" in the course of the storyline, right? Until now I took it for obvious, since most people felt it intuitive, that the LTT we hear in the voice is the same person we know from the tEotW porlogue. But, as I should know, the fact is, that most times what one feels obvious, is actually not the case.

So, let concentrate on how the story of LTT's voice in Rand's head is logical from the point of view of the perspective of LTT as we know him from the prologue of tEotW. His whole sysytem pf believes collapses, he suffers profoundly and so he makes a very resolute decision to commit a suicide, what he makes very successfully and really dramatically. And in the next moment he finds himself stuck in a situation rather similar to what Egwene had in Gawyn's dream (but without the pleasant bit) or to what a candidate for a clan chief has among the glass columns. He is experiencing a story, abotu which course he can do absolutely nothing. He can only watch. And the story is showing him various complications that originally aroused from himself letting the Taint getting saidin. Not a pleasant story at all.

Most likely LTT as very well educated AoL Aes Sedai would know what is it to watch the dream of somebody else in the GoI, will know what is it to watch a variations of his own life in a Portal Stone, will know what is it to watch tha virtual reality created for a person in ter'angreals like the Shawl Test TA, or the stool used on Talene. He might know that DO might use his own kinds of virtual reality. And 3000 years after his death, means that now he is seeing a world quite different from everything he knew in his time. He also knows that he couldn't possibly have survived what he did at Dragonmount. So, what is teh possibility that under all these conditions he will take what he sees through Rand's eyes as real? To start with he was not interested at all in taking anything as real, since he just resolutely and successfully commited his suicide. If he wouldn't reject it, it would be very very hard to explain. So we have his attitude of "I'm dead and this is the Pit of Doom".

LTT is experienced Aes Sedai, which means he is very well trained to not let in his mind what he doesn't want to let there. He is the same soul as Rand, and we have seen how capable is Rand to successfully focus on lamenting for a very long time, a skill that LTT obviously also has. There is nothing that will make him feel needed for any action, he doesn't have even to care about sustaining his body, and his thoughts are preoccupied with his grief and despair and there's nothing to bring him out of this (since usually what brings a person out of grief and derpair is the necessity to do something in the life, a necessity brought by this same life, something that is unapplicable to LTT's position as just-a-watcher). So there's nothing strange in the fact, that he was spending so much of his time sulking and doing nothing. Actually it would be strange for him in this situation to act otherwise.

But as much he doesn't want to react to Rand's life before his eyes, he literally has absolutely nothing else to do but watching teh program of Rand Live Channel. He might ignore it, but it's allways just before his eyes and all other senses. There are moments interesting for him in it, that's inevitable. So earlier or later he will start e.g. making emmotional comments like a watcher of a sports match might. Part of them might be completely undistinguishable from Rand's own reactions, especially if tehy would happen to coincide (what is bound to happen, since they are the same soul), and if there is nothing there that Rand wouldn't know, it would pass also in the text unnoticed. And if he happens to decide he is unduly too much involved, he might remind himself, that "I'm dead and this is the Pit of Doom", and instead to watch this silly stuff I have better to go back to my duty in mourning Illyena.

Until now there LTT appears not really mad. He's just in a very deep grief, and practically permanently locked in a unbreakable chest. Gradually he would begin to engage more and more in Rand's life, still not really believing it to be real. So eventually he comes to reacting to Rand, with all the stages of "this madman in my hear", "Are you real" and all the rest of expectable in such circumstances stuff, through the "we" of TGS until the moment with Semirague and the True Power, when LTT slowly begins to realize that what happens before his eyes is likely to be real and serious and that he, the bodyless LTT, has some role in it. But his sense of touch with reality doesn't fulfill until the moment at the Dragonmount, when Rand stops fighing against LTT in himself, seemingly adopts LTT's point of view and so finally involves LTT in the real live, in a situation when LTT is finally forced to look at the situation seriously and to make a decision. As he does, because despite of all appearance he is not insane, but simply confused and at his hearth is a good and capable man.

Terez
12-14-2010, 12:21 PM
It's starting to become clear that you are one of those stubborn holdouts. It's like you don't even understand the points I make.

Sodas
12-14-2010, 12:40 PM
What tacky and self-centered post in response to such a great one by ADBF.

ADBF did address the point you made, albeit a point without any substance behind it, and you now personally accuse him of "being a stubborn holdout," thus trying to avoid the subject by labeling him.

Classic Terez.

But what should I expect from someone who doesn't understand how the WoT works when it comes to personalities and souls.

a dragonburned fool
12-14-2010, 12:55 PM
It's starting to become clear that you are one of those stubborn holdouts. It's like you don't even understand the points I make.Yes, I don't understand the point you make, and I realy try and intend to continue trying. I already said that I don't have a problem with your theory as one of the possible scenario, so the problem is not there. You seem to say you have some point against the realer argumentation in general and against my variant in particular, but again and again I fail to see it. I see only explanations of how this and this gets interprated under your theory. You seem to object against the notion of how there could be two instances of conscoiusness under the same soul, but when I begin to discuss this point in detail, you say it's all far from the main point, and that I avoided to discuss something, you don't specify what. Then you give me quite a good explanation of what you understand under "the real Lews Therin", if this was what you were doing with those last quotes, but I cannot understand, what this has to do with discussing the possibility of LTT's voice being a separate instance of consciousness. Finally I had the impression, you want to see a positive interpretation how a separate consciousness of LTT would stay psychologically in the text. You seem to say it's not that what you ask for. What you want me then? What am I avoiding? Please, believe me, I'm not trying kidding with you or baiting you or triumphing over you or any other silly thing like that, I'm trying to reac an understanding with you.

Belazamon
12-14-2010, 02:37 PM
So, let concentrate on how the story of LTT's voice in Rand's head is logical from the point of view of the perspective of LTT as we know him from the prologue of tEotW. His whole sysytem pf believes collapses, he suffers profoundly and so he makes a very resolute decision to commit a suicide, what he makes very successfully and really dramatically. And in the next moment he finds himself stuck in a situation rather similar to what Egwene had in Gawyn's dream (but without the pleasant bit) or to what a candidate for a clan chief has among the glass columns. He is experiencing a story, abotu which course he can do absolutely nothing. He can only watch. And the story is showing him various complications that originally aroused from himself letting the Taint getting saidin. Not a pleasant story at all.
Hey, adbf, I did read through your post, and while it is well-thought-out and quite coherent, it seems to be directly contradicted by the very quote Sodas posted directly above your post. To wit:

Q: The question is, with Rand and Lews Therin, do they have one soul or two souls in the body?
RJ: They have one soul with two personalities. The reincarnation of souls does not mean reincarnation of personalities. The personality develops with each reincarnation of the soul. This is the cosmology that I [cobbled] together.
In other words, your theory begs the question of how - by what mechanism - LTT's personality actually reemerged in Rand's body, in direct contradiction to RJ's assertion. We don't even have the fallback of "the Dragon Reborn is a special case," as RJ was specifically and directly talking about Rand in his response.

morat'corlm
12-14-2010, 03:12 PM
There is no way anyone can deny, sanely, that Rand and Lews Therin were not two different, separate personalities.If you're referring to the voice that occasionally popped up in Rand's head when you say "Lews Therin", absolutely it can be denied.

Sodas
12-14-2010, 08:03 PM
Jordan said,

"They [Rand and Lews Therin] have one soul with two personalities."

So it did happen. How that happened is not specified. But there is no contradiction.

LTT's death is a special case. And there is talk in the books of other special cases as well in the Age of Legends, Graendal's subjects. So while 99.99% of people have every reason to fear death, the pattern may have purposefully given Rand the full knowledge and perspective of Lews Therin so that he could win Tarmon Gaidon the right way.

Belazamon
12-15-2010, 12:03 AM
Jordan said,

"They [Rand and Lews Therin] have one soul with two personalities."
Congratulations, you have once again cropped out relevant information in order to supply an out-of-context quote!

Hint, though, for future reference - it helps if the quoted passage isn't already readily available in the same thread.

Sodas
12-15-2010, 12:41 AM
http://www.markstivers.com/cartoons/Cartoons%202004/Stivers-6-20-04-Out-of-cont.gif

^ Construct Theory in a Nutshell