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View Full Version : Elayne, Fortuona and Perrin


GonzoTheGreat
11-26-2010, 06:32 AM
I've listed them in alphabetical order in the title, though that's not quite the order in which I intend to introduce them here.
"So," Elayne said, "explain to me why I shouldn't just execute you both as traitors."This, of course, introduces Elayne, and, though implicitly, also Perrin. Now for the third:

Can someone explain to me why Fortuona shouldn't just execute Elayne as a traitor?

As far as I can see, the situations are precisely similar: during a temporary absence of the exertion of royal power, they (or an ancestor) assumed the kingship. Any argument which could be made to save Elayne from the headsman would also apply to Perrin, and the latter has a few extra excuses to boot.

skaywalker
11-26-2010, 06:40 AM
Well... Elayne is a blond innocent cutie and Perrin is... hmm.... cutie will be the last word which I will use in describing him :p

yks 6nnetu hing
11-26-2010, 06:46 AM
about the same reason why QE II does not claim the French throne but has some objections (whether justified or not is beside the point) to Northern Ireland's independence

skaywalker
11-26-2010, 06:46 AM
Now to be serious, I don't see the Italian president wanting the heads of the Spanish, French and German presidents, just because the Roman Empire covered their lands thousands of years before.

morat'corlm
11-26-2010, 06:53 AM
Fashion.
His voluminous blue trousers and short, high-collared red coat with rows of gold buttons embossed with his sigil were the height of Seandar fashion, which meant the height of fashion for the Empire.In her short white-collared red coat and wide sky-blue trousers tucked into her boots
As you can see, we have good foreshadowing that Birgitte will be among the most chic subjects of the Crystal Throne, which pretty much brings in Elayne sur Trakand Rie, Queen of Andor and Cairhien beneath the Empress Fortuona, as a package deal.

GonzoTheGreat
11-26-2010, 07:06 AM
Couldn't Perrin be fashionable too?
I have to admit that this is actually a good reason.

In contrast to the reason yks and skaywalker give. We know that the Seanchan came to Randland specifically because they do want to enforce those ancient claims. So it does not seem reasonable at all to expect them to drop those claims, merely because they are ancient.

yks 6nnetu hing
11-26-2010, 07:11 AM
at the risk of Godwining the thread, that's exactly what the Third Reich was about: reclaiming the lands of the (Holy) Roman Empire; The Roman Empire being 1st Reich, Holy Roman Empire the 2nd and... well.

Just because someone says they have a right to (re)claim something that's been dead for several hundred years, does not mean that they actually have that right.

dominominic
11-26-2010, 07:17 AM
about the same reason why QE II does not claim the French throne but has some objections (whether justified or not is beside the point) to Northern Ireland's independence

Northern Ireland is still part of the United Kingdom.

David Selig
11-26-2010, 07:23 AM
I'd say executing someone for what her distant ancestors did 1000 years ago is somewhat less reasonable than executing someone for what he did himself, but maybe that's just me. ;)

GonzoTheGreat
11-26-2010, 07:29 AM
Just because someone says they have a right to (re)claim something that's been dead for several hundred years, does not mean that they actually have that right.True, but then, that argument can work in the other direction too: to deny any claims Elayne might want to make to the Two Rivers.

So while I agree that a case can be made against Fortuona's claim on Randland, that also means that Elayne has no claims on land her ancestors had given up.

morat'corlm
11-26-2010, 07:50 AM
at the risk of Godwining the threadHonestly, I think this might be the least justifiable Godwining I've ever seen. I mean, "competing territorial claims of governments and successor states" isn't exactly an area of history lacking for examples.

yks 6nnetu hing
11-26-2010, 07:58 AM
Northern Ireland is still part of the United Kingdom.

and it doesn't want to be. Likewise, Two Rivers doesn't want to be a part of Andor. For both cases there's a glorious independence a thousand years ago and for both cases they want that independence back.

On the other hand, the mondarchs of England used to rule over large parts of France, there was a bit of a scuffle, they retreated and while *technically* they would have a claim no-one's stubborn enought to enforce it.

yks 6nnetu hing
11-26-2010, 07:59 AM
Honestly, I think this might be the least justifiable Godwining I've ever seen. I mean, "competing territorial claims of governments and successor states" isn't exactly an area of history lacking for examples.

jeez, you're primmer than Elayne

GonzoTheGreat
11-26-2010, 08:20 AM
jeez, you're primmer than ElayneSomebody has to be.

dominominic
11-26-2010, 08:31 AM
and it[Northern Ireland] doesn't want to be.

Except for the Unionists. Who make up about fifty percent of the electorate.

GonzoTheGreat
11-26-2010, 08:45 AM
Except for the Unionists. Who make up about fifty percent of the electorate.But those are not true scotsmen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman). Then again, an argument can be made that they are. At least some of the problem is that the English had brought Scots to Ireland in order to change the demographics.

Still, I don't think you can find a very high number of TR people who are loyal to Elayne while being opposed to home rule.

dominominic
11-26-2010, 08:48 AM
But those are not true scotsmen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_scotsman). Then again, an argument can be made that they are. At least some of the problem is that the English had brought Scots to Ireland in order to change the demographics.

Still, I don't think you can find a very high number of TR people who are loyal to Elayne while being opposed to home rule.

TR?

Mat
11-26-2010, 08:49 AM
Originally Posted by ToM, Chapter 47, A Teaching Chamber
"So," Elayne said, "explain to me why I shouldn't just execute you both as traitors."

"Because I'm the wolf king, a strong Ta'veren and beside Mat I'm one of the guys Rand needs to win the last battle and you all probably going to die and lose the last battle if I'm not there, Blondie!"

I don't like Elayne in that scene... Well I don't like Her at all but at that scene She was just *&/%*("/%




As for the topic, I'm with the other posters :-)

GonzoTheGreat
11-26-2010, 09:25 AM
TR?Two Rivers.

dominominic
11-26-2010, 09:42 AM
Two Rivers.

Ah, should have known, thanks.

dpt24
11-26-2010, 10:20 AM
Because attempting to arrest Perrin would cause a civil war elayne would likely lose, as Perrin has a very strong army, and there are plenty of people who still don't support Elayne, and might just switch sides, or turn it into a 3 way civil war...also arresting Faile could cause Bashare to attack her as well, which would give Perrin's side a great Captain, not to mention, Mat would probably side the Band with Perrin, which brings Elayne's chances of victory to zero

GonzoTheGreat
11-26-2010, 10:34 AM
Because attempting to arrest Perrin would cause a civil war elayne would likely lose, as Perrin has a very strong army, and there are plenty of people who still don't support Elayne, and might just switch sides, or turn it into a 3 way civil war...also arresting Faile could cause Bashare to attack her as well, which would give Perrin's side a great Captain, not to mention, Mat would probably side the Band with Perrin, which brings Elayne's chances of victory to zeroThat all assumes the attempt would fail.

If Elayne had captured Perrin and Faile during the meeting, then she could've had them both beheaded before anyone even heard about it. Might not have been all that honorable, but it would have been efficient.
Plus, the Crown could have cashed in on the bonus Moridin had placed on Perrin's head.

Enigma
11-26-2010, 10:57 AM
I took Elayne's statement to be an opening gambit for negotiations not a real "I will execute you unless you convince me otherwise". I believe she heven had a pov where she acknowledged that she was not going to kill Perrin.

In this book Elayne is looking out for Andor's interst first and foremost. That was why she was so keen to get her hands on the dragons, why she wanted to get the Band as a part of the Andoran army and why she came down heavy on Perrin.

I could be wrong here but I think that her plan was to come in heavy and threaten Perrin who was technically in her power. He hopefully backs down and she can then gather in his army as part of Andor and give him some title so that he stays as a divisional commander. That would then leave Andor the single most powerful military state outside of the shadow and Seanchan with the Band, a powerful two rivers not to mention Perrins' very big army and the dragons.

Has Elayne gone powermad? She is a realist and knows that even if everything goes well with the last battle the Seanchan are a clear and present danger and the only non shadow group that was strong enough to stand up to them was the Dragon empire that presumably will not be around after the last battle. So she wants to build Andor up into a superpower that can defend itself from anyone, includng the Seanchan.

I am looking forward to seeing the showdown between Egwnene who is "the WT is the most important centre of the world" and Elayne's "Andor's interest are the most important thing to me."

GonzoTheGreat
11-26-2010, 11:04 AM
What if Perrin had called her bluff?
Then either she would have had open rebellion on her hands, in which both Mat and Rand might have chosen Perrin's side. Or she would have had to carry out her threat before he could return to his forces, probably killing someone who came for parley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parley).

The only reason why she had an outcome that was anywhere near good for Andor was that Perrin decided to indulge the stupid noblewoman, instead of telling her to get serious and pay attention to the clouds on the horizon.
I am looking forward to seeing the showdown between Egwnene who is "the WT is the most important centre of the world" and Elayne's "Andor's interest are the most important thing to me."That, I have to admit, is going to be a very interesting spectacle. I fear we won't get to watch it, but it would be wonderful. Even though it would undoubtedly involve a bath scene and half a chapter of picking the right dress for the occasion.

yasiru89
11-27-2010, 12:59 PM
That all assumes the attempt would fail.

If Elayne had captured Perrin and Faile during the meeting, then she could've had them both beheaded before anyone even heard about it. Might not have been all that honorable, but it would have been efficient.
Plus, the Crown could have cashed in on the bonus Moridin had placed on Perrin's head.
Except that at the last minute ta'veren kicks in and the headsman's grip slips, freeing Perrin's hands- then he becomes so pissed off at having to use the axe that he murders everyone there all the while grumbling about how he hates it and leaves with Faile. :D

I think Elayne did indeed go a bit over with the power-hunger. I don't think she quite understands the scope of the Seanchan problem either- even with the dragons and Cairhien, she basically has no channellers fighting for her and no air forces. An attempt at trying to subjugate the Black Tower would have been a welcome sight to see her put in place, except that she'd have ended up dead or turned and that wouldn't bode well for her twins. What she needs to do is stand for a looser alliance with more allies in order to stand against the Seanchan. By solidifying her power-base so callously, she risks alienating and even threatening Tear, Illian, et al as soon as Rand steps out of the picture.

alleluia_cone
11-27-2010, 01:26 PM
Here's hoping that Fortuona never encounters Elayne, otherwise, the Seanchan might start advocating the practice of eugenics. If she meets Gawyn as well, then this is basically a done deal.

SixPips
11-27-2010, 01:30 PM
I believe Elayne is just following the trend of women in Randland.

Egwene: Got a little power, went nutso self righteous and got more power.

Tuon: Had power, lost it briefly while with the Band and became cool; came back and got even more power and is now that guy who punches you in the back of the head while you are trying to fight off a vicious german shepherd (aka the shadow)

Elayne: Became queen and went all nuts about her own obligations.

there are more women on the badside who have been haring off chasing power too, but there seems to be only three exceptions in my mind: Aviendha, Min, and Nynaeve.

The overarching theme for the other powerhungry women has been "Oh, I want to teach this person a lesson about messing with my seat of power, but I shouldn't...oh well, I must do what I want! I mean, what is best for <Insert random seat of power>!!!"

Davian93
11-27-2010, 01:35 PM
I took Elayne's statement to be an opening gambit for negotiations not a real "I will execute you unless you convince me otherwise". I believe she heven had a pov where she acknowledged that she was not going to kill Perrin.

In this book Elayne is looking out for Andor's interst first and foremost. That was why she was so keen to get her hands on the dragons, why she wanted to get the Band as a part of the Andoran army and why she came down heavy on Perrin.

I could be wrong here but I think that her plan was to come in heavy and threaten Perrin who was technically in her power. He hopefully backs down and she can then gather in his army as part of Andor and give him some title so that he stays as a divisional commander. That would then leave Andor the single most powerful military state outside of the shadow and Seanchan with the Band, a powerful two rivers not to mention Perrins' very big army and the dragons.

Has Elayne gone powermad? She is a realist and knows that even if everything goes well with the last battle the Seanchan are a clear and present danger and the only non shadow group that was strong enough to stand up to them was the Dragon empire that presumably will not be around after the last battle. So she wants to build Andor up into a superpower that can defend itself from anyone, includng the Seanchan.

I am looking forward to seeing the showdown between Egwnene who is "the WT is the most important centre of the world" and Elayne's "Andor's interest are the most important thing to me."

Elayne is and was just being a good Queen in ToM. She played Perrin and Mat brilliantly. And she even seems as though she's gonna end up playing Egwene to benefit Andor too.

The Immortal One
11-28-2010, 11:34 AM
Elayne is and was just being a good Queen in ToM. She played Perrin and Mat brilliantly. And she even seems as though she's gonna end up playing Egwene to benefit Andor too.

I suppose so, but my biggest annoyance is that she should know Two Rivers people (Rand and Mat at least) enough to know that they are not like all the nobles she usually deals with.

She should have known that simply saying it straight out 'you see my problem? if we did this...' rather than threatening people and then trying to manipulate them would have gotten a better result.