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tardz0r
11-26-2010, 11:35 AM
I'm stunned. Speachless.

Why?

Well, I just finnished reading one of the last chapters of the book, the one in which Aviendha goes through the ter'angreal in Rhuihdan and learns about the impending doom of her people.

Now, the thing that has me gotten worked up in such a fury, is the part where she views the future of her daughter, padra, who appearently has 3 siblings. How can this not be the most gigantic spoiler of the whole ending of a story ever? I mean, if I've understood this correctly, tehe timeline in TOM is approximately one month away from the last battle, and Aviendha is not yet pregnant. Neither has she any children from before. Therefore, unless she somehow gets herself pregnant with quadruplets in the final volume of twot, it means Rand will survive the last battle so that he can get her pregnant with the other three children.

I don't know about you guys, but I sure as hell didn't wanna know that that was even a possibility.

Clumsily done, and I'm dissapointed. If rand actually survives now, I'll never forgive Sanderson or Jordan, dependig of which of them is to blame.

PS. The reason for this post is the small flicker of hope in the deeper recesses of my heart that some of you see any flaws in my reasoning.

David Selig
11-26-2010, 11:39 AM
Min had a viewing that Avi will have Rand's quadriplets back in Winter's Heart. So this is nothing new.

jana
11-26-2010, 12:08 PM
Min had a viewing that Avi will Rand's quadriplets back in Winter's Heart.

^ this

maacaroni
11-26-2010, 12:12 PM
Please also remember Cadsuane's conversation with Min and various Aes Sedai at the end of KoD.

It basically states that if the DO wins, it is the end of the wheel of time and all prophecy is over. Including Miss Elmindreda Farshaw's viewings.

halo6819
11-26-2010, 01:10 PM
also, those kids dont sound like they are actualy avi's as far as there looks go. "throw back to there wetlander side" nither rand nor avi have a wetlander side to there family tree (rands mother, as a princess of andor is realted to the aiel as well, terez has quotes on that somewhere) so there is definatly something fishy about avi's kids having black hair.

also, the series has always made it clear that just because something is prohosized does not mean that it will come to pass, the future is always in flux, as is evidenced by Avi's determination to change the future she saw

Terez
11-26-2010, 01:15 PM
Min had a viewing that Avi will have Rand's quadriplets back in Winter's Heart. So this is nothing new.
What he meant is that the Last Battle is getting close, so apparently we should be sure that Rand and Aviendha can't possibly have sex before it, now. Which is not necessarily true.

However, the Aelfinn said he would survive if he died. That's nothing new either.

dominominic
11-26-2010, 01:25 PM
Is it taken for granted that Aviendha's visions show the future as it will certainly and unavoidably be?

And if so, is that just because she was sure they were real herself?

amazinglarry
11-26-2010, 01:59 PM
Is it taken for granted that Aviendha's visions show the future as it will certainly and unavoidably be?

And if so, is that just because she was sure they were real herself?

I don't really have any quotes to back this up, but I assumed that the visions she sees are the future as it would have happened if she had not gone through the columns. Once she goes through, there are now infinite possibilities because she is going to try to change the outcome. I don't see how the ter'angreal could read her future thread in the pattern if that thread is about to change based on seeing the visions...how would the ter'angreal "know" which course of action she will decide to take?

I suppose you could argue the opposite (that the visions take into account the actions that she will take upon seeing them). Depends on what properties the author decides to give to a magic item reading a magic pattern. It seems difficult to explain realistically though, and it just seems to me like this could be a case in WoT where free will is allowed/encouraged.

amazinglarry

Terez
11-26-2010, 02:25 PM
I don't really have any quotes to back this up, but I assumed that the visions she sees are the future as it would have happened if she had not gone through the columns. Once she goes through, there are now infinite possibilities because she is going to try to change the outcome.
Exactly. Some have argued (elsewhere mostly) that she saw the future of Dark Rand, but that makes no sense, partly because there would have been no point in showing her, and partly because Dark Rand led to the Pattern being destroyed.

I don't see how the ter'angreal could read her future thread in the pattern if that thread is about to change based on seeing the visions...how would the ter'angreal "know" which course of action she will decide to take?
Well, it can get complicated, with the mirror worlds. The Pattern is like a supercomputer that uses the mirror worlds - quantum worlds, sort of - as a model for all possible outcomes and their relative probabilities. The Rings of Rhuidean have a more obvious connection to the mirror worlds than the columns, though.

dominominic
11-26-2010, 02:31 PM
Well, it can get complicated, with the mirror worlds

Hehe, that's an understatement. Makes it all more interesting though.

Elwynn
11-26-2010, 05:39 PM
Nobody has mentioned the mat and tuon thing.
Maybe it only pissed me off, but when he said mat and tuon would have outriggers after the last battle. WTF!?!
Thanks for telling me mat and tuon will make it out of the last battle just fine.
Sure hope they don't put them in any danger in the battle, cause I sure as hell won't fear anything bad happening to them.
Took me a while to get over that.

Ishara
11-26-2010, 07:40 PM
also, those kids dont sound like they are actualy avi's as far as there looks go. "throw back to there wetlander side" nither rand nor avi have a wetlander side to there family tree (rands mother, as a princess of andor is realted to the aiel as well, terez has quotes on that somewhere) so there is definatly something fishy about avi's kids having black hair.

Let's be clear - Rand is still one full half Wetlander. It's just that his half is red-blond and light eyed, which is typically a recessive gene, which means that there isn't a good chance of his natural children being born dark haired/ dark eyed when he's procreating with another light haired/ light eyed woman.

The line that Tigraine (and Elayne) are descended from (even in small part) is Ishara's line (hi!) and she was said to be as dark as an Ath'an Miere, so defintely NOT Aiel.

Terez
11-26-2010, 07:45 PM
The characteristic Aiel coloring came from Rand's line, whether it was through Ishara, or Souran Maravaile, or elsewhere in the line.

Seeker
11-26-2010, 07:48 PM
What I find interesting is that no one seems to be bringing up the fact that Aviendha's daughter is constantly holding the source.

This to me is very dangerous both to herself and the people around her. For one thing, what happens if she's shielded? Could she survive such a thing or has she become dependent on saidar?

Is this a sign of what channelers will be like in the future or is it only Rand al'Thor's children that have this particular issue. Do the boys have it too? How do you fight and master saidin in your sleep of all things? (excluding channeling in the dream world where you are technically conscious)

Terez
11-26-2010, 07:56 PM
What I find interesting is that no one seems to be bringing up the fact that Aviendha's daughter is constantly holding the source.
My theory is this: Rand was bonded just before Elayne got pregnant, so the weaves didn't interfere with the babies. Monaelle said they would - that's why Melaine wasn't at the sister-bonding ceremony (from which Elayne stole some of the necessary weaves for the triple-bonding).

So I figure Aviendha will get pregnant before Rand dies, and that when they bond him again after he is ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod that Aviendha's babies will be affected by the re-bonding, perhaps more than Elayne's babies because they are less developed. This might also explain the dark-haired boy, as one of them might take after Min. It might also be what causes the embryo to split into quadruplets, one for each of them.

I will write up my Rand-dies-and-gets-resurrected theory soon enough, with all the relevant quotes.

Of course, this might explain it, but it might also be explained by the simple fact that they started training channelers at the age of ten in the Age of Legends, apparently. Maybe this will give them an edge. Just seems unlikely.

Frenzy
11-26-2010, 08:57 PM
My theory is that it sounds like Spook from Mistborn.

endymion
11-26-2010, 09:36 PM
I'm pretty sure that Rand won't die. In Aviendha's view of a possible future, there was a phrase that the Aiels are bittered because the Dragon left them. I think this implies that Rand will leave the main continent if he survives he Last Battle. The only thing that confuses me is the timeline. It seems that Tuon has already died when was breaks out between the Seanchan and the Aiel, but Rand's children are still in their teens of twenties the most. Personally, I think Rand's departure after the last battle is the best that can happen after the Last Battle. I think this is the only way to bring peace to the land, even if time.

Terez
11-26-2010, 09:38 PM
I'm pretty sure that Rand won't die.
There are at least four prophecies that say he will.

endymion
11-26-2010, 10:13 PM
There are at least four prophecies that say he will.

All of the prophecies only imply. Like his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul can also imply injury.

But Min's viewing "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade." seems to foretell what happens if Rand wins the Last Battle.

Davian93
11-26-2010, 10:45 PM
All of the prophecies only imply. Like his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul can also imply injury.

But Min's viewing "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade." seems to foretell what happens if Rand wins the Last Battle.

The Finn tell him he will die...in order to live.

So, he's gonna die.

FWIW, I agree with your point of the prophecies only implying his death. The most that any of the characters who are very knowledgeable of the prophecies have stated is that they "heavily imply" that his death is necessary. Still, the Finn answer is pretty definite.

Frenzy
11-26-2010, 11:10 PM
Perhaps he'll die like Morgase did. Or like Tuon did.

Terez
11-26-2010, 11:33 PM
All of the prophecies only imply. Like his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul can also imply injury.
Blood on the rocks and Shayol Ghul...not among the four.

1. Twice to live, twice to die
2. To live, you must die
3. He who is dead yet lives
4. Alivia will help you die

They are all pretty straightforward, though there are some ambiguities that are explained rather well by resurrection via Tel'aran'rhiod.

There is also a viewing by Min that has Rand on a funeral bier, and another with three women before a pyre. Egwene has a dream of a man dying on a cot, but it's important he not die...but the funeral pyre is already being built. She has another dream of Logain stepping over Rand's body to mount a black stone (which most likely represents the position of M'Hael), but when Egwene touches the body it falls apart like a paper puppet.

Some think this represents a faked death, but the four prophecies above don't allow for it. Rand has to die. So, a better explanation for Egwene's dream is that Rand died, but his death was not permanent. It is suggested that Rand will live after the Last Battle in secret, but that will probably happen after he is resurrected. But the world will probably be at least somewhat aware that he died yet somehow still managed to finish the job - nice general stuff of legends.

But Min's viewing "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade." seems to foretell what happens if Rand wins the Last Battle.That was Nicola's Foretelling, and it was corroborated by a dream - 'Melaine and Bair dreamed of you on a boat with three women whose faces they could not see, and a scale tilting first one way then the other. ' And if the future teeters on the edge of a blade - the scale tilting first one way then the other - then I would at least question whether or not the Last Battle is done. Because that's not what she says.

The Karaethon Cycle says 'The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound to the south.' The Aelfinn say 'The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. To live, you must die.'

This is why I was reasonably sure that Rand would somehow settle the Borderlanders in TOM - because the KC specifically says that HE will tie the north to the east. But it does NOT say that he will bind the west to the south, nor do the Aelfinn say that he will make the two as one. And 'To live, you must die.' was in answer to the question of how to survive the Last Battle.

What I am hoping for is for Rand to 'cut the wetlands in two with a sword' as the Wise Ones dreamed he would, and then for Mat and Tuon to make them as one. And if that is going to happen, then it makes sense for Rand to die before he wins the Last Battle, and then be resurrected to win it. It's a good time for him to be absent, really.

I had hoped that TOM was going to with Rand's death, but part of me was aware I probably shouldn't expect it. It's a risky cliffhanger. I will have to juggle my Le Morte d'Althor theory a little bit. :D

skaywalker
11-27-2010, 01:33 AM
My problem with all that is this:

So Rand dies and lives again, maybe going somewhere to live happily ever after, hiding from the rest of the world.

And his own kids start a war with the Seanchan. And he'll just watch them die? I mean... they are his own children, not to mention his people and etc. That's just doesn't sound like Rand at all.

Terez
11-27-2010, 01:41 AM
Perhaps he didn't live long in the alternate future. Perhaps he won't in the regular one, either. We don't know.

There's also a chance that he won't be resurrected, and that he'll just live on in Tel'aran'rhiod, but considering the foreshadowing I think it's a slim chance.

tardz0r
11-27-2010, 04:05 AM
Im still going to be hugely disappointed if Rand somehow lives after the last battle. You all seem to take some kind of ressurection theory for granted, but I don't know what that theory entails.

Even so, I think Rand's death would be a much more fitting end to the whole story, as every event and setting in the whole series have led up to such a point. An ending with everyone getting their "happily ever after" would just be plain wrong.

Also, if Rand did get ressurected and went away to go somewhere else that would be too much of a shadow of Frodo's fate for my comfort. Rand is not Frodo. Rand is more of an allegory to Jesus the way I see things (not that I'm a believer, mind you) who gives his blood and life to save all people.

GonzoTheGreat
11-27-2010, 05:08 AM
Then again, the idea of Mat as Sam does have a certain appeal. :p

Edited to add: Mat even saw an Oliphaunt, didn't he?

morat'corlm
11-27-2010, 05:23 AM
Indeed he did, among more worthy and majestic beasts.
Sometimes he saw strange creatures, though most of those were unloaded above the city to avoid the streets. [...] corlm, like hairy wingless birds as tall as a man, tall ears twitching constantly and long beaks seeming to yearn for flesh to rend, and huge s’redit with their long noses and longer tusks.

Spasmodean
11-27-2010, 08:56 AM
Well I think one thing that jarred me a little was that the Aiel kept referencing the Dragon. Dragon's peace, Dragon's children etc.

I thought they did not care for wetlander prophecies?

yasiru89
11-27-2010, 11:46 AM
Umm... Isn't Aviendha going to have quadruplets according to Min? So Rand just has to knock her up the once, right? I'm sure Min wouldn't jump in with an elaborate flourish of her knives. :D
As for his surviving- obviously we'd not have a story if the Dark One actually won, and so we can safely assume the Pattern survives. Also, taking the obvious interpretation of Tarmon Gai'don as the 'Great Battle' in Nicola's Foretelling (which is as sure as Min's viewings given the Pattern stays intact), then 'he who is dead yet lives' almost certainly refers to Rand. So there's a strong probability that he does indeed survive.

What's disturbing though is the chance that the future Aviendha saw is inevitable- in which case it's possible Aviendha dies while giving birth (this might be what was odd that Min commented on) and that's why she's never able to avert the future her children give rise to.

The constant holding of the Source as someone mentioned (just like Paul's pre-born children in Dune) might be a bad thing for Aviendha's children. They should be severed and healed again every few months or something... Or does that constitute child abuse?

No mention of Min's line was curious too. Wouldn't Min also die much sooner than the channellers? Bloody ashes I say!

Ishara
11-27-2010, 05:30 PM
But T, the point I'm trying to make is that light-haired and light eyed isn't an exclusively Aiel trait, so to call Tigraine (and Elayne'e) colouring Aiel isn't completely accurate.

Facetious thought: Maybe the dark-haired ones are Min's?

sheikh chilli
11-27-2010, 07:24 PM
C'mon now, you guys thought rand al thor was going to die at tarmone gaidon?

Rand will live. The dragon reborn will be enjoying retirment in some nice posh place by dragonmount/two rivers with his 3 lovely ladies, nodding in satisfation at a job well done.

Job being in this instance sealing up the Dark one. Until ofourse the next lot of inompetents and poor sods drill through another bore again, therby repeating the whole cycle once again

Terez
11-27-2010, 07:38 PM
But T, the point I'm trying to make is that light-haired and light eyed isn't an exclusively Aiel trait, so to call Tigraine (and Elayne'e) colouring Aiel isn't completely accurate.
It's not exclusively Aiel but we can trace the Aiel heritage.

Facetious thought: Maybe the dark-haired ones are Min's?
I already said that.

Seeker
11-27-2010, 08:14 PM
I'm pretty sure this series ends with Rand finding Ilyena again, whomever she's become now. (My bet is Min though, Rand should be able to see it with his new soul-gaze powers. Then again, I've always suspected that Min is more than she appears).

Elayne ends up with Charlz Guybon.

Aviendha, I don't know. Probably Wise One to some Clan Chief.

But Min is the only one that genuinely loves Rand. The other two love Rand because "fate says so." Whatever happens to him, they're not going with him.

Kimon
11-27-2010, 08:21 PM
Elayne ends up with Charlz Guybon.



Unless he's Demandred. His comments to Mat in ToM were slightly suspicious.

Got to agree though on Min. She and Rand should get the chance to walk off into semi-retirement as joint-chairs of the Philosophy Department at the University of Cairhien. That's sort of like dying and living again, nay?

Seeker
11-27-2010, 08:28 PM
Nothing says that Rand won't be ACTIVE in the world after Tarmon Gaidon. Certainly, he'd try to stop a war between the Seanchan and the Aiel.

But a few things will be different.

1) He probably won't e ta'veren anymore.

2) While I don't think he'll have swapped bodies with Moridin, the world likely won't know him as Rand al'Thor anymore. He may take a different name.

As such, Rand may try to sway the Aiel against the war and they might not even realize it's him doing it.

yasiru89
11-27-2010, 11:23 PM
C'mon now, you guys thought rand al thor was going to die at tarmone gaidon?

Rand will live. The dragon reborn will be enjoying retirment in some nice posh place by dragonmount/two rivers with his 3 lovely ladies, nodding in satisfation at a job well done.

Job being in this instance sealing up the Dark one. Until ofourse the next lot of inompetents and poor sods drill through another bore again, therby repeating the whole cycle once again
The thing is, I have a feeling this time it is indeed going to be exactly what it's titled- the 'Last Battle', not the 'last of the Age cycle' or something like that. I think Rand is going to try for killing the Dark One outright (maybe gas his prison with Mashadar or seal him up with some kind of Light bomb set to go off with him as soon as he's sealed).
I think there will be consequences of this, and even if he doesn't die immediately, the conspicuous absence so early on in Aviendha's visions of anyone involved in the fight at the moment might be indicative of this.
Consider Elayne- there's no way she would give up Andor (whatever's left of it) and Cairhien to retire into obscurity. So I reckon she's to die sometime soon after she gives birth.
Rand needs to do something about the mess that's going to be left after Tarmon Gai'don. I doubt he's going to go 'well, my bit's done now' and step aside. So again by Aviendha's visions, it's unlikely Rand survives completely 'whole' (not that I'm saying he's to lose more limbs, mind you). But of course, it is for the best that those visions don't come to fruition exactly.

sheikh chilli
11-28-2010, 06:46 AM
i find it hard to believe rand is able to kill the dark one. it;s just impossible to me.

yasiru89
11-28-2010, 07:37 AM
i find it hard to believe rand is able to kill the dark one. it;s just impossible to me.
Either that or he seals it up perfectly (Lews Therin was wailing half the time that this was impossible but in his pride he assumed they could) and puts up signposts or something for the next ambitious, third name seeking beauty not to poke around the patch! :D

The Immortal One
11-28-2010, 09:30 AM
What's disturbing though is the chance that the future Aviendha saw is inevitable- in which case it's possible Aviendha dies while giving birth

Unlikely, in Aviendha's vision when somebody she is in the body of thinks of her mother Aviendha sees her own face in the person's mind (if my meaning is clear?!). As in, that person would have to have seen Aviendha and known Aviendha to be her mother (I suppose she could have seen Aviendha's face in a painting, but that seems unlikely too).

As for it being the LAST Battle, I don't think so. Didn't RJ once say that this wasn't the first or last cycle, just an ordinary one?

Glen
11-28-2010, 09:33 AM
also, those kids dont sound like they are actualy avi's as far as there looks go. "throw back to there wetlander side" nither rand nor avi have a wetlander side to there family tree (rands mother, as a princess of andor is realted to the aiel as well, terez has quotes on that somewhere) so there is definatly something fishy about avi's kids having black hair.

I just feel I need to point out that there is the occasional oddity of an Aiel with dark hair, including, for instance, the wise one Losaine, mentioned in the PoD prologue (page 17 in my copy), described as "gray-eyed with dark hair that only showed glints of red in the sun".

With the presence of the most powerful ta'veren the world has ever seen at the moment of conception, I could definitely see that minute chance of dark hair resulting in one of the four having black hair.

The Immortal One
11-28-2010, 09:39 AM
I just feel I need to point out that there is the occasional oddity of an Aiel with dark hair, including, for instance, the wise one Losaine, mentioned in the PoD prologue (page 17 in my copy), described as "gray-eyed with dark hair that only showed glints of red in the sun".

Is that the Wise One who is in Sevanna's group? The one who is very vain of having black hair 'which is very rare among Aiel', or are they two seperate Wise Ones?

Glen
11-28-2010, 10:02 AM
Is that the Wise One who is in Sevanna's group? The one who is very vain of having black hair 'which is very rare among Aiel', or are they two seperate Wise Ones?

No, Losaine was in Cairhien at the time that Verin was using her semi-compulsion trick on the captured Aes Sedai, I think. You may be thinking of Alarys - she is of the Shaido wise ones, and has black hair. And yes, she's another example of dark hair amongst the Aiel.

yasiru89
11-28-2010, 10:05 AM
Unlikely, in Aviendha's vision when somebody she is in the body of thinks of her mother Aviendha sees her own face in the person's mind (if my meaning is clear?!). As in, that person would have to have seen Aviendha and known Aviendha to be her mother (I suppose she could have seen Aviendha's face in a painting, but that seems unlikely too).

As for it being the LAST Battle, I don't think so. Didn't RJ once say that this wasn't the first or last cycle, just an ordinary one?
Fair point. Though if it's the case that this isn't the very last one, it should at least hold until the next second Age when someone drills into the prison again. Else I have to agree with Ishydin's logic.

Oh and about the black hair- I have a vague recollection that one of the Maidens also had dark, almost black hair.

Terez
11-28-2010, 10:45 AM
Yes, but it was specified that the dark-haired boy took after 'their wetlander side'.

yasiru89
11-28-2010, 08:08 PM
Yes, but it was specified that the dark-haired boy took after 'their wetlander side'.
Recessive gene in the Andoran Royal line- problem solved.

looqas
11-29-2010, 02:08 AM
also, those kids dont sound like they are actualy avi's as far as there looks go. "throw back to there wetlander side" nither rand nor avi have a wetlander side to there family tree (rands mother, as a princess of andor is realted to the aiel as well, terez has quotes on that somewhere) so there is definatly something fishy about avi's kids having black hair.


It's the mail-man aka Androl I'm looking at right now.


Personally I think the whole Avi's vision was the single biggest surprise in the whole book. And it really did play Thom's flute on my sentiments concerning Aiel and Seanchan. I have to say that those Rand's and Avi's kids are quite rotten apples. Especially the primly Padra and downright dastardly grand-kid Oncalan.

But don't you guys worry. Avi can turn this around now.

BUT I read a one very big bonus in there! However you do your math Elayne's rule has to be short considering that Aes Sedai are supposed to live hundreds of years. One can only hope and look forward to some ter'angreal replicating related accident. :eek:

endymion
11-29-2010, 08:04 AM
My problem with all that is this:

So Rand dies and lives again, maybe going somewhere to live happily ever after, hiding from the rest of the world.

And his own kids start a war with the Seanchan. And he'll just watch them die? I mean... they are his own children, not to mention his people and etc. That's just doesn't sound like Rand at all.

This is why i thinks he is going to leave after the Last Battle. in Avi's vision, one of the Aiel is bitter that the Dragon left instead of staying to lead his people and build a Dragon's empire. I think this is also a reason why the Aiel goes to war.

GonzoTheGreat
11-29-2010, 08:57 AM
Recessive gene in the Andoran Royal line- problem solved.But where did those royals find a recessive dark hair gene?
All the dark hair genes I've heard about are either dominant or co-dominant*.

* Which means, IIRC, that they're sort of dominant too, but things are more complicated than you'd like if you have to pass an examination.

yasiru89
11-29-2010, 09:30 AM
That's right, I didn't realise that. Hmm... wouldn't the dark haired people among the Aiel cause nearly all of them to all have dark hair over the generations also then?

Caveatar
11-29-2010, 09:43 AM
That's right, I didn't realise that. Hmm... wouldn't the dark haired people among the Aiel cause nearly all of them to all have dark hair over the generations also then?

It is merely the black thing on Rand's brain that Nynaeve saw which has leaked through and discolored the hair.
:D

final death
04-23-2011, 06:04 PM
All of the prophecies only imply. Like his blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul can also imply injury.

But Min's viewing "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade." seems to foretell what happens if Rand wins the Last Battle.

its not mins viewing its nicolas foretelling that happened when she first linked at salidar

Cor Shan
04-25-2011, 12:15 AM
But where did those royals find a recessive dark hair gene?
All the dark hair genes I've heard about are either dominant or co-dominant*.

* Which means, IIRC, that they're sort of dominant too, but things are more complicated than you'd like if you have to pass an examination.

Remember reading A Game of Thrones, where the big reveal relies on a system of genetics that, uh... doesn't exist in our world, and hasn't really been explained (until its explained along with the secret it evidences).

But anyways, the whole TAR resurrection seems cheap, especially if its only to have a home life. Is there any argument saying Rand cannot die before the last battle before being ripped out again? Because that seems fair enough that he dies before (or during) TG, then Elayne (or Nyn) realizes WTF she has to do to save the day... And Rand comes back... and dies again. That way, he dies and doesn't get to live happily ever after.

FelixPax
04-25-2011, 10:00 PM
What he meant is that the Last Battle is getting close, so apparently we should be sure that Rand and Aviendha can't possibly have sex before it, now. Which is not necessarily true.


However, do you foresee Rand, Mat AND Aviendha having a three-some newly wed honeymoon just before the Last Battle?

File that under the "Swinging Brothers Theory"



Aviendha's egg split in four.
Mat's sperm fertilizes two eggs.
Rand's sperm fertilizes two eggs.



Conclusion: Aviendha, Mat Cauthon, Rand al'Thor have one hell of a secret honeymoon, at the beginning of the Fourth Age.

Terez
04-25-2011, 10:16 PM
Felix is back. I guess the real world has reverted to fairly normal levels of being depressing.

Edit: Okay Felix, I get it now. ;)

Edynol
04-25-2011, 10:23 PM
Felix is back. I guess the real world has reverted to fairly normal levels of being depressing.

The reason why this theory doesn't get a lot of discussion despite it being a fairly obvious first choice is the fact that Min's viewing suggests that the outcome of the link between them will be the death of one but not the other. If Alivia kills Moridin to kill Rand, then both of them die, and the matter of a few seconds or minutes doesn't seem to be enough to merit making a distinction in the prophecy. Of course, you could be stubborn and insist that the viewing refers to Lews Therin, but it doesn't.

Wrong thread?:D lol.

FelixPax
04-25-2011, 10:29 PM
Felix is back. I guess the real world has reverted to fairly normal levels of being depressing.

The reason why this theory doesn't get a lot of discussion despite it being a fairly obvious first choice is the fact that Min's viewing suggests that the outcome of the link between them will be the death of one but not the other. If Alivia kills Moridin to kill Rand, then both of them die, and the matter of a few seconds or minutes doesn't seem to be enough to merit making a distinction in the prophecy. Of course, you could be stubborn and insist that the viewing refers to Lews Therin, but it doesn't.

Incorrect thread posting, Terez?


My prediction for the 'Swinging Brother Theory', is it will occur after Rand dies in the Last Battle. Once Rand is brought back to life, by Nynaeve's Dream.

Mat Cauthon become known as the Sun King in public... and Aviendha will be one of many in his many "wives". Rand and Mat both will be married to Aviendha. Just as Elayne, Min, Fortuona will be married to Rand, Mat, Aviendha as well.

Terez
04-25-2011, 10:52 PM
Incorrect thread posting, Terez?
Dragonmount is that way ---->

My prediction for the 'Swinging Brother Theory', is it will occur after Rand dies in the Last Battle.Oh, my bad. I wasn't really paying attention.

Once Rand is brought back to life, by Nynaeve's Dream.That is a good theory.

Mat Cauthon become known as the Sun King in public...No, that's Thom.

and Aviendha will be one of [Rand's] many "wives".This is true.

Rand and Mat both will be married to Aviendha. Just as Elayne, Min, Fortuona will be married to Rand, Mat, Aviendha as well.If you add Talmanes and Selucia to the mix then we've got a deal.

Edynol
04-25-2011, 11:43 PM
If you add Talmanes and Selucia to the mix then we've got a deal.

And throw in Leane to spice it up a tad.

Terez
04-25-2011, 11:54 PM
It was already too female-heavy. But I suppose three men will be enough.

FelixPax
04-26-2011, 01:24 AM
It was already too female-heavy. But I suppose three men will be enough.

At least four men, because there's another Ta'veren:

Valan Luca :D


Perhaps Nynaeve's Dream will forget to include Latelle surviving the ending of the Third Age? (Unsure)

Terez
04-26-2011, 02:48 AM
Okay, if Luca's going to be there then Galad needs to be there too, which is of course a package deal including Berelain. This is starting to get interesting. In fact, I think Faile needs to be there so she can shave Berelain's head, which means we get Perrin too.

Terez
04-26-2011, 02:50 AM
Just to be clear, I'm thinking less 'marriage' at this point and more 'massive orgy'.

Daekyras
04-26-2011, 04:35 AM
Just to be clear, I'm thinking less 'marriage' at this point and more 'massive orgy'.

Nice...

Anyway, Elayne Dies- Aviendha takes over having her kids. I don't know how, but the plus side of me randomly throwing this out is that Elayne dies.

Which also readdresses the male-female numbers problem in T's "big Orgy"!

Zombie Sammael
04-26-2011, 04:37 AM
Remember reading A Game of Thrones, where the big reveal relies on a system of genetics that, uh... doesn't exist in our world, and hasn't really been explained (until its explained along with the secret it evidences).


Completely off-topic, but I don't remember any dodgy genetics in A Game Of Thrones. There's some linguistic dodging and weaving in A Feast For Crows about different pronouns, but I don't know what you're referring to in AGOT.

Crispin's Crispian
04-26-2011, 02:51 PM
Not to get all biological about this orgy thing, but keep in mind that Aviendha's egg isn't going to split four ways for this to happen, else all four children would be identical.

Interestingly, it just happened in Cali this year: Redwood City couple have natural fraternal quadruplets (http://www.smdailyjournal.com/article_preview.php?id=150218). But in that case, two of the babies were identical, so there were three eggs (possibly only two, they haven't figured that out yet), which is even more rare.

But "rare" is kind of moot at this stage of WoT. :)

FelixPax
04-29-2011, 06:16 PM
Just to be clear, I'm thinking less 'marriage' at this point and more 'massive orgy'.

Wonder how this 'massive orgy' of 'love', will be taken in by the Ogiers present at Tar Valon?



Seanchan Gardeners
Loial's massive following


RJ did say "they will met"... without specifically how or why.


Perhaps Faile will shaved Berelain's head like an Egg in an attempt to copy the royal look Fortuona?


Berelain is of 'Hawkwing's Blood' after all!


Where would Berelain be shaved at? Tar Valon metro area.


Who knows the Empress lacks hair? And who is or will be in Tar Valon soon?


Band of Red Band members

Chel Vanin (from Maerone)
Harnan


Aes Sedai

Teslyn Baradon
Joline
Edesina Azzedin




Egeanin Tamarath (Sarna)/Leilwin
Juilin
Amathera


Whom out of this bunch would likely Berelain trust?

Amathera, who even Thom found no dirt on when she was Panarch of Tarabon.


Elayne once did Dream, that she would "share" Rand with multiple other women, and Amathera was specifically mentioned 'twice' in two Dreams.

Sure looks like Mat Cauthon is going to marry (technically) a LOT of women in AMoL book... to quote "protect them" and to end Fortuona's war.


Let Toss The Dice, big time and guess that Mat will marry:


Rand, Aviendha, Elayne, Min
Valan Luca, Latelle
Amathera Aelfdene Casmir Lounault, Juilin
Berelain, Galad
Faile, (Perrin dies physically)
Nynaeve, (Lan dies physically in Blight)
Egwene, Gawyn
Talmanes


I need to think more about Birgitte, Liandrin and a few other characters future roles still....


Fortuona is in for a rude surprise in AMoL book.
What's a girl to do? In anger, try to fry her new husband with Lightning?

Hell, a "Little Lightning" will prove it's really Mat! Right? ;)

GonzoTheGreat
04-30-2011, 03:50 AM
Fortuona is in for a rude surprise in AMoL book.This is the one weak point in your current theory. There are so very many references to Mat "not doing that kind of thing anymore, cause he's now a married man" that I think Fortuona won't expect him to "stay true to her" at all. Instead, she will be enormously surprised by the whole concept, as Seanchan men of such high station would just naturally have a couple (or more) mistresses.

Just reread those passages where Mat is looking at women, and keep in mind that he is making an assumption. Then ask yourself: is his assumption justified?

Terez
04-30-2011, 07:08 AM
I bet she will at least share Selucia with him.

FelixPax
05-01-2011, 12:01 AM
Just reread those passages where Mat is looking at women, and keep in mind that he is making an assumption. Then ask yourself: is his assumption justified?

Yes. Yes, I'm justified.

Your assumption is Mat Cauthon is doing the "asking"... I do not made that assumption.


The assumption is Elayne, Min, Aviendha among others are going to do the "asking", not Mat Cauthon.

All Mat Cauthon has to do, is answer them all, in the very presents of Fortuona AND Selucia.



Separately:


Odds are quite high, that Selucia is going to SLAP Mat Cauthon upon hearing this too. It's a repeat of past events, when a Seanchan Emperor was SLAPPED by his Truth Speaker (Tuon pov).

FelixPax
05-01-2011, 12:13 AM
I bet she will at least share Selucia with him.

You know that was one of the characters, I'm still thinking about... I can see that as a possibility, however I need to re-read Selucia's scenes again.


Separately:

Selucia's always struck me, as Tuon's mother... not her real birth mother.


I do think that Selucia as Truth Speaker and Voice for the Empress will tell Fortuona, will tell Mat Cauthon that 'Fortuona accepts Mat Cauthon freeing the Aes Sedai, Damane from the a'dam so long as they follow his authority'. Why? It's a loophole to protect Fortuona from the a'dam as a damane, which Selucia knows risks "her daughter's" position. Selucia trusts Mat Cauthon enough, to know he can order around Aes Sedai without fear or danger.