PDA

View Full Version : Thoughts on the Creators battle with the Dark One


rusty
11-27-2010, 05:26 PM
Why doesn't the Creator lend Rand a hand to defeat the Dark One? Or if he does get involved then what is the nature of his involvement. Why is it that the Dark One is hell bent on destroying the pattern, and what's up with all the lives Rand lives during his trip to Falme?

During Rand's trip to Flame via the portal stone, he lives countless lives where The Dark One has the last laugh and wins at the end of each of these lives. So does that mean he broke free in the mirrored world? Then why is he still struggling to get free in this world. Couldn't he just break the pattern in the mirrored world, and end all worlds?

Maybe it is the case that as long as the Dark one is trapped in one world he is trapped in all.
I've seen this said before, and I'll come back to this point.

TDO is bad, and wants to destroy the pattern, this much is obvious. I think the Creator is good and that he wants to save the pattern, but it seems that there are things he will do and things he won't. Although he opposes TDO plan he doesn't seem to want a direct confrontation, but why is this? The dark one touches the pattern – which we see in the food spoilage, and ghosts etc, so why not the creator? The answer lies in a theological/philosophical theory. I know this is only a story, but I think that the Creator wont interfere for 'the greater good' (See I can't think what book this is in, but I think it was Francis Schaeffer who first came up with this idea – if anyone can help me out that would be good). So the greater good in this instance basically means that the Creator could defeat TDO on his own, but chooses not to so that greater good might be achieved somehow. Probably so that we have a good story to read. I think that the Creator's fight is really the patterns fight, or that the Creator fights TDO though the proxy of the pattern, this is how I think the Creator is stacking the odds. Let me explain.

The lights champion is ta'veren and I think that the pattern shaping its self around ta'veren is really the Creators touch. Why does he choose to interfere in this way? The creator (being good) is also bound to his own nature, one part of which is to observe the 'greater good' mentioned above.

Now, I have a confession to make. I actually started thinking about this while laying in bed suffering from a massive hangover, and so this may all be just the crazy ramblings of the previous evenings revellings. On my night out my friends and I played a couple of hands of black jack, in fact one of us did very well, so well in fact that the house eventually cashed us out. Later I was thinking of this as an analogy for the mirrors of the wheel.

TDO - the house - is trying to wipe out each mirror world – player. Each player is hoping to cash out with more than they started, and thus start the next hand – turning of the wheel. The game goes on and on, and as the game progresses players go up and down in fortune, players are eventually wiped out, but the house has to keep playing so long as there are players. I've heard the house always wins, but one or two players are having some good luck and keep doubling up their winnings and and so the game continues. Can they ever really win, or do they just make it to the next hand – turning of the wheel. Well, yes they could beat the house if they bet so big that they bankrupt the house, I think that this is the crux of the Creators plan. The funny thing is it's often said that Mat has TDO's own luck, but maybe it might be better to say 'the lights own luck', because being ta'veren is really the Creator stacking the odds in the favour of the players.

To take on and defeat TDO, Rand has got to bet big and rely on the help he's getting from the Creator via his ta'veren nature. I remember a couple of comments to Rand about the nature of being ta'veren, Min goes on about balance, and Cadusne's second guessing that the pattern couldn't be forced to the will of a ta'veren. But I'm not so sure. Just like Mat - who tools up using his ta'veren nature by relying on his luck - I think Rand has also found a way to influence events using his nature. I don't mean that he will defeat TDO with a battle of wills, but will be able to get all the right cards in place to allow the light to win not only the hand but bankrupt the house. In a sense Rand's choice is his to make, but he is being supported because he IS the Creators plan. The way that Rand's ta'veren nature has changed is in direct opposition to TDO touch. So as TDO has a heavier influence, so too is the Creators counterbalance manifested through Rand and Mat etc.

Is this all just nonsense or am I stating the bleeding obvious?

Mods: please move to correct forum is this isn't the right one.

sheikh chilli
11-27-2010, 07:17 PM
the creator is just a pussy. just like the dark one. relying on humans to do their bidding.

they should fight each other till one gets destroyed. whoever wins gets the ultimate prize of doing whatever they wish to do so with the world and the pattern.

seems pretty fair no?

Seeker
11-27-2010, 08:20 PM
The Creator designed the Dark One as a test for humanity.

The Dark One is sentient but only within the parameters of his mandate. He will destroy anything he can get his hands on and use every tactic at his disposal to facilitate this goal. If the Dark One wins, humanity has failed the test.

Humanity passes the test when it finds a way to either break or change the cycle, thus demonstrating the capacity to grow beyond the parameters the Creator originally set.

At that moment, men will be truly independent beings.

SixPips
11-27-2010, 08:28 PM
the creator is just a pussy. just like the dark one. relying on humans to do their bidding.

they should fight each other till one gets destroyed. whoever wins gets the ultimate prize of doing whatever they wish to do so with the world and the pattern.

seems pretty fair no?

This could be defended by saying the Creator cares about his Creations. He COULD fight The Dark One in a final confrontation, but at what risk? He would rather it play out like this than risk The Dark One destroying both his Creation AND Himself.

On topic: Great analogy with the poker hand. I have always considered the portal worlds what RJ refers to them to be; Other possible worlds where different decisions have lead to different patterns that are separate of the one true pattern. This is a spin-off concept of the book series Nine Princes in Amber.

In Nine Princes in Amber, there is a central city on a central world, called Amber. All other worlds are mirror images and copies of Amber that differ based on one single action. As there are an infinite number of possible different actions for every being on every world, so too there are infinite worlds in Amber. Some are so close to the original one could spend one's entire life searching for the difference, others are drastically different and may even include different sentient species ruling the planet. The princes could all travel to the different worlds and that was the story of the book series.

I think that this is where RJ gets his idea for the Portal Stones. I feel that when Rand see's the other lives and hears "I win again Lews Therin" he is seeing the thousands of possible outcomes that could result in failure. GAMBLING REFERENCE: Imagine it like looking at different bingo cards before you get your own. You know there can only be one winning bingo card, but the others all vary just slightly enough to make it difficult to discern before the end of the night. :D

morat'corlm
11-27-2010, 08:42 PM
the creator is just a pussy.Charming.

yasiru89
11-27-2010, 11:38 PM
Perhaps the disparaging remarks about the 'Creator' come from mistaking him for 'Omnipotent being'. Perhaps he isn't quite omnipotent as we'd like. It's mentioned that the Dark One was the anti-thesis of the Creator- this of course suggests that the two are equally matched (chaos vs order, etc. in that very yin-yang/ancient Aes Sedai symbol way- though I sometimes think the symbology doesn't quite refer to this at least some of the time). But then how did the Creator seal the Dark One and have him bound to time? I think the price for that was the Creator losing his ability to influence things directly (maybe, say, being bound to time for a long while makes you stronger within time- so that the Creator would lose if he tried, and outside they're evenly matched so the gambit is too risky).

The fact that it seems to be the Pattern (according to Moiraine it is neither good nor evil, while the Creator is good and the Dark One is evil) and NOT the Creator that lends the Creator's Chosen One the means to fight effectively, seems to support this hypothesis of mine. Namely- Rand being ta'veren. I think the extent of the Creator's direct influence was in making the Pattern self-preserving in this way. The Light seems to be free to whoever embraces it, but not without trial and ordeal to shatter the best of men- as was the case with Rand's epiphany on Dragonmount at the conclusion of tGS. Apart from this the Creator has also made the One Power a factor, so that the Pattern again uses this for its own survival by making the Chosen One the strongest of channellers. Though free will appears to play its part too, since other strong channellers chose to align with the Dark (eg- the Forsaken).

About the Mirror Worlds, I think that might be another way the Creator plays a hand- by making one world, the world the narrative is on, more substantial than the others (this is likely the reason for the fading effect in those alternate universes) so that the Dark One's release threatens to destroy everything only through that one. But in counterpoint we have Rand's epiphany moment being a constant event through its appearance in Tel'aran'rhiod (the third constant aside from the Creator and the Dark One), so maybe, even if the Light loses, there's an all or nothing bet on whether its champion is turned or not.

GonzoTheGreat
11-28-2010, 04:27 AM
During Rand's trip to Flame via the portal stone, he lives countless lives where The Dark One has the last laugh and wins at the end of each of these lives. So does that mean he broke free in the mirrored world? Then why is he still struggling to get free in this world. Couldn't he just break the pattern in the mirrored world, and end all worlds?Two points:

1. I do not think that during that trip, Rand et al. really lived in any Mirror Worlds.
"Not here," Loial said slowly. "Obviously not here. 'From Stone to Stone run the lines of if, between the worlds that might be.' I've been thinking on it, and I believe I know what the 'the worlds that might be' are. Maybe I do. Worlds our world might have been if things had happened differently. Maybe that's why it is all so ... washed-out looking. Because it's an 'if,' a 'maybe.' Just a shadow of the real world. In this world, I think, the Trollocs won. Maybe that's why we have not seen any villages or people."Rand, Loial and Hurin did visit such a "world that might be", a real Mirror World.
But during their trip to Falme, they only spent time on a "line of if", a series of possible ways in which their lives could have gone, if they had made a different decision at some time.
So what they experienced was not real, but more like a vision or something like that.

2. The one that spoke to Rand at the end each time was not the DO.
The DO refers to him as the Dragon. Ishamael, on the other hand, does use Lews Therin as the name he uses when addressing Rand or talking about him. Thus, it seems reasonable to assume that it had been Ishamael who spoke.
Of course, at the time, Rand did not know there was a difference, which may have played a role too.

The Immortal One
11-28-2010, 08:41 AM
Perhaps the disparaging remarks about the 'Creator' come from mistaking him for 'Omnipotent being'. Perhaps he isn't quite omnipotent as we'd like. It's mentioned that the Dark One was the anti-thesis of the Creator- this of course suggests that the two are equally matched (chaos vs order, etc. in that very yin-yang/ancient Aes Sedai symbol way- though I sometimes think the symbology doesn't quite refer to this at least some of the time). But then how did the Creator seal the Dark One and have him bound to time? I think the price for that was the Creator losing his ability to influence things directly
I agree with this. I have always (since I started reading the Wheel of Time series) thought that the Creator had bound the Dark One at the price of being bound Himself.

Though the irony in this is that if the Dark One ever did manage to escape and destroy the Pattern, then the Creator would also be free. Perhaps to re-imprison the Dark One and start the whole Pattern again - "there are neither beginnings nor endings".
Moiraine speculated once that every event makes a Pattern and each Age makes a Pattern and perhaps every cycle of Ages make a greater Pattern. Well... perhaps the entire Pattern itself is only a portion of an even greater Pattern.

yasiru89
11-28-2010, 08:54 AM
I agree with this. I have always (since I started reading the Wheel of Time series) thought that the Creator had bound the Dark One at the price of being bound Himself.

Though the irony in this is that if the Dark One ever did manage to escape and destroy the Pattern, then the Creator would also be free. Perhaps to re-imprison the Dark One and start the whole Pattern again - "there are neither beginnings nor endings".
Moiraine speculated once that every event makes a Pattern and each Age makes a Pattern and perhaps every cycle of Ages make a greater Pattern. Well... perhaps the entire Pattern itself is only a portion of an even greater Pattern.
Or the Dark One goes, 'You're not going to trick me with another 'look at the size of the maw on this infinite void!' and shove me in this time!' and they fight. :D
About the multi-Pattern (incidentally, maybe 'A Song of Ice and Fire', which I've a mind to read soon, is set in our own universe- get it? song/verse/multi-verse? okay, never mind), I think Loial mention something of it regarding that Mirrors of the Wheel book back in tGH, but he said what he found on some obscure fragment were those very questions. I think I'll go with a quantum multiverse explanation, where each choice and possibility leads to a superposition in the weaving of the Pattern until it's done, though maybe the Mirror Worlds have their own Pattern, or perhaps the Pattern is multi-dimensional. Though where the Creator is concerned, I think he exists outside of time, so a recreation of the Pattern would be an independent entity.

The Immortal One
11-28-2010, 09:35 AM
so a recreation of the Pattern would be an independent entity.

Doesn't mean that all of those individual entities don't make a Great Pattern - like every person in the world are individuals but all their threads come together to make a Pattern.

yasiru89
11-28-2010, 10:11 AM
Doesn't mean that all of those individual entities don't make a Great Pattern - like every person in the world are individuals but all their threads come together to make a Pattern.
At least, not time-wise. And this Great Pattern would have to include the Creator as well (which I don't think is the case usually, he seems to be outside time) since that's the way the sub-Patterns (or consequent Patterns if you will, though it's curious trying to fathom this without the concept of time brushing things somewhere) would be linked together. Perhaps the Creator won't be able to remake the Pattern after all.

rusty
11-28-2010, 11:48 AM
Two points:

1. I do not think that during that trip, Rand et al. really lived in any Mirror Worlds.
Rand, Loial and Hurin did visit such a "world that might be", a real Mirror World.
But during their trip to Falme, they only spent time on a "line of if", a series of possible ways in which their lives could have gone, if they had made a different decision at some time.
So what they experienced was not real, but more like a vision or something like that.

2. The one that spoke to Rand at the end each time was not the DO.
The DO refers to him as the Dragon. Ishamael, on the other hand, does use Lews Therin as the name he uses when addressing Rand or talking about him. Thus, it seems reasonable to assume that it had been Ishamael who spoke.
Of course, at the time, Rand did not know there was a difference, which may have played a role too.

Thanks for the replies:

Loyal's comments about 'the worlds that might be' was particularly insightful. Although, this doesn't really change the crux of my argument, that the Creator will only intervene in the struggle with TDO ta'veren nature.

Also I finally remembered the 'greater good' I was referring to was actually Alvin Plantinga, and the argument is known as the 'free will defense 'summed up here http://www2.gsu.edu/~phltso/freewillD.html

One other analogy on the creator and the pattern is that they are like an author and his story. RJ - the Creator is the author, and the WoT story - the pattern. RJ could just wipe out TDO but then we wouldn't have a story to read, so this is the reason for ta'veren.

So I don't really think TDO is an opposing force for the Creator, I think of him more as a necessary evil.

sheikh chilli
11-28-2010, 12:41 PM
Charming.

the creator in wot is useless. get used to it

manolin
11-28-2010, 01:39 PM
Perhaps the disparaging remarks about the 'Creator' come from mistaking him for 'Omnipotent being'. Perhaps he isn't quite omnipotent as we'd like. It's mentioned that the Dark One was the anti-thesis of the Creator- this of course suggests that the two are equally matched (chaos vs order, etc. in that very yin-yang/ancient Aes Sedai symbol way- though I sometimes think the symbology doesn't quite refer to this at least some of the time). But then how did the Creator seal the Dark One and have him bound to time? I think the price for that was the Creator losing his ability to influence things directly (maybe, say, being bound to time for a long while makes you stronger within time- so that the Creator would lose if he tried, and outside they're evenly matched so the gambit is too risky).



a concept like in the Mistborn series?

morat'corlm
11-28-2010, 05:55 PM
the creator in wot is useless. get used to itI wasn't expressing a theological objection to what you said.

sheikh chilli
11-28-2010, 06:28 PM
I wasn't expressing a theological objection to what you said.

oh i see. well all i can then say is i don't give a shit.

Seeker
11-28-2010, 07:09 PM
oh i see. well all i can then say is i don't give a shit.

Hey, angry guy, it's a book.

It's good that you don't give a shit cuz (wait for it)... It's a BOOK! Debating it is all well and good but try to keep in mind that it's not that big a deal if a fictional Creator has the sense of responsibility of welfare-mama

Musenge_09
11-28-2010, 07:14 PM
The Creator has already done it's bit. It created everything.

Everything is an almost inconceivable idea in this context. It includes ALL possible worlds, the DO and the pattern itself, as well as everything that has happened or could happen.

So the Creator is not a part of this fight. This fight is part of the Creator.

yasiru89
11-28-2010, 07:27 PM
the creator in wot is useless. get used to it

He did seal up the Dark One to begin with. And if he chooses not to interfere (which I very much doubt as I mentioned earlier) rather than being unable to, it's still a case of, 'your mess- clean it up', like a stern parent. If anything, his one shortcoming is not putting up a giant signpost not to dig for a new Power source.

a concept like in the Mistborn series?

Spoilers! I'm midway on the first book still. Is it exactly like what I said though?

Raralith
11-29-2010, 01:48 PM
Wasn't there an analogy in the book whereas the creator is something like a gardener? It was something in the lines of seeding and growing the plants (worlds), and than goes on to create another garden.

Madgod
11-29-2010, 02:01 PM
Wasn't there an analogy in the book whereas the creator is something like a gardener? It was something in the lines of seeding and growing the plants (worlds), and than goes on to create another garden.

If I remember the analogy correctly, it was that every world is a flower in the Creator's garden, and he won't stop to weep for a fallen rose bud. This happened when Rand was very much under Elan's influence from their merging.

yasiru89
12-03-2010, 01:26 AM
If I remember the analogy correctly, it was that every world is a flower in the Creator's garden, and he won't stop to weep for a fallen rose bud. This happened when Rand was very much under Elan's influence from their merging.
I doubt that. It seems to have been one of Lews Therin's musings. We've never had any indication that Moridin and Rand have shared thoughts through what link they have (that dream in the ToM epilogue is not yet evidence and even if it was, why only now?).
Also doesn't mean the analogy is correct either. The Creator doesn't seem to be an uncaring short attention-spanned gardener going by what he told Rand back in EotW (that certainly was him).

Madgod
12-03-2010, 09:04 AM
It would seem more like Lews Therin creeping over to Rand, except that doesn't seem to fit with Lews Therin's world view, and perfectly with Elan's. Those two were set up to be opposites, with Lews Therin being hopeful in the face of adversity, while Elan fell into despair and hopelessness. Musing that the Creator doesn't care what happens to his creation fits in better with a nihilistic philosophy. While we don't know what the link entails exactly, since physical attributes seem to cross over (pain from Rand losing his hand, fatigue) and funky things happen when either channels saidin, a coloring of the other's emotions would not be surprising. All it would take is not a direct thought from Elan to Rand but an emphasis on hopelessness and dispair, a belief that pretty much nothing really matters to cross over and that analogy would eventually pop up.
And, if you believe that the voice Rand hears is Lews Therin and not a construct, remember that the voice seems to nod and agree with that statement as if he never heard it before it comes up in Rand's head.

Ancalagon
12-14-2010, 04:58 AM
We assume that the Creator is a god-like being with both the power and the will to influence events in the world. Much like the Christian God. But what if he is literally just the Creator and is either unwilling or unable to do any more for his creations. Its not his bag, so to speak.

Perhaps the DO is sort of an unavoidable side effect of the creation of a Pattern. Something that the Creator knows about, and deals with by sealing him away, but he cannot destroy the DO or banish him. This is because the DO is the personification of evil itself, something that will always be present as long as the people who are part of a pattern are sentient and have free will. Hence why Moridin laughed at Rand's idea that he was going to destroy the DO - may as well destroy the pattern itself. Perhaps if the DO were destroyed, he would merely be recreated in time by people doing and thinking evil deeds.

Also, the current Age is neither the last nor the first in which the LB has been fought. But doesnt it strike you as odd that the Bore was only dug in the previous age, and didnt exist before. Where was the DO before that? We know he existed, and we know the LB occurred even before the AOL, so what happened to him? Maybe, like Dream in the Sandman novels, he can be destroyed sometimes, but is a necessary part of existence and will always exist (in other words he reincarnates after being destroyed). However, if he ever "wins", then the pattern itself ends. The DO could never threaten the Creator because the Creator is independent of any Pattern, and there are multiple Patterns each with their own DO.

Weird Harold
12-14-2010, 05:07 AM
Also, the current Age is neither the last nor the first in which the LB has been fought. But doesnt it strike you as odd that the Bore was only dug in the previous age, and didnt exist before. Where was the DO before that?

Herid Fel answered this in LoC Ch 18:

Rand then asks if he has learned any more about what Tarmon Gai'don will be. Herid says it will not really be the Last Battle. Because the Wheel of Time turns, there will come a time again when the Dark One's prison is whole and no one even remembers him. No one can do what the Creator did, yet somehow the prison will get back to the way it was in the Age of Legends. Rand then asks if there is any reason to break the seals. Lews Therin chants for Rand to break the seals.