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nameless
11-27-2010, 06:48 PM
The end of ToM gives us a new prophecy that seems to relate to Perrin somehow. "In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come. Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself"

The One-Eyed Fool is obviously Mat, and the halls of mourning are probably a reference to Finnland somehow, since those are the only halls Mat was in at the time. First Among Vermin is Rand, seeing as he's the one trying to break the seals, and Fallen Blacksmith is Perrin.

So what are "the last days of his pride?" Does this refer to his reconciliation with the killer within? Perrin was always proud of being a creator instead of a destroyer.

More importantly, who is the Broken Wolf? At first I suspected Hopper because of the "one whom Death has known" line, but nothing else in the prophecy seems to apply to the way Hopper died the second time. There was no fear and sorrow in the hearts of men and no Seanchan involvement. Boundless the werewolf might qualify as a broken wolf whom death has known, but it seems a pretty big stretch to imagine that he'll end up getting killed in an epic fashion that involves the Midnight Towers.

My guess is that "Broken Wolf" refers to Perrin's banner, the crimson wolf head. He's ordered it taken down and burned often enough that it meets the "death has known" requirement. If the banner is used metonymically to represent the entire army, the prophecy could foretell Perrin's defeat at the hands of the Seanchan, or possibly a decision to join up with the Seanchan empire. He surrendered his right to the Manetheren banner to Tylee, which means that if he swears to the Empire they could give him the banner back and he could permanently retire the wolf head and raise the red eagle in its place.

The only other Wolf I can think of who might end up falling to the Seanchan somehow is Ituralde, and he doesn't seem to fit the "death has known" clause. Can anyone think of someone I'm missing?

frenchie
11-27-2010, 06:57 PM
I'm pretty sure that the "Broken Wolf" refer's to Ituralde(the Wolf). Remember Rand saying that the DO spent much more strength at Maradon than he normally would have, as that would have broken the spirit of men. Abd who was in command at the Battle of Maradon? Rodel Ituralde.

Kimon
11-27-2010, 07:55 PM
The "last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride" might be taking poetic license on the usual group designation for wolves. That's the way that I was reading it anyway. I suppose that that would work better if we linked Perrin's group with the Andorans though, since that would at least allow us to add the Lions of Andor which would make referring to his "pack" as a "pride" more palatable. That's not exactly a stretch, seeing as Perrin has linked Manetheren back with Andor. The Broken Wolf whom Death has known might be Lan. Wouldn't be much of a stretch to poetically refer to the Seven Towers of Malkier as Towers of Midnight, nor to describe him as a man whom Death has known. Certainly his fall would "bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men". Ituralde just doesn't seem important enough to be deserving mention alongside the three ta'veren.

Musenge_09
11-27-2010, 08:49 PM
I had the impression that the "Midnight Towers" could be the Forsaken themselves, mostly due to Egwene's dream early in ToM where she sees the towers.

"... thirteen black towers rose in the distance beneath a tarlike sky"

I read this a reference to the Forsaken, and so when I read the prophecy at the end of the book I immediately thought of the Forsaken as being the "Midnight Towers". I note also that it does not say "The Towers of Midnight", but the "Midnight Towers", which could be nothing or it could be deliberate obfuscation.

Reading it as the Forsaken, it raises more questions about the Broken Wolf. At a stretch, it could be Hopper I guess, as he was felled by Slayer, who was sent by Graendal and Moridin. But I can't see Hopper's death as having huge ramifications to anyone except Perrin and the wolves, and certainly not shaking men's "very will itself".

But if it refers to Ituralde, why is he "Broken"? So far he has been pushed hard, but at no stage has he been broken, and I also can't see him as being "the one whom Death has known". That phrase seems to imply a very personal association with some kind of tragedy; Ituralde has obviously had a long association with death but he is a professional soldier and as such it is part of his daily life. To make special mention of it like the prophecy does would be like saying of an innkeeper "the one who is familiar with beer". It's true, but not particularly extraordinary, and certainly not anything outside of reasonable expectation.

To my mind that part of the prophecy could refer to Lan, as he has long been a sort of tragic hero, and could be said to be both broken (he is known as "the man who is an entire nation", and Malkier is obviously broken, thus he could be said to be broken) and "one whom death has known" (again in reference to the fall of Malkier - what could be more of a personal tragedy than the death of your family?).

Also, if Lan were to die, it is something that could seriously affect a fair number of people, but my main problem here is that I can't find a wolf reference anywhere for Lan, and basically this whole surmise feels a bit unsatisfying to me.

Edit:

...and to get back to my point about the Forsaken, I can't conceive of a situation where one or more of the Forsaken would be directly responsible for the death of either Ituralde or Lan. It's getting to the pointy end of the story now and the Forsaken are pretty much entirely concerned with trying to take down the big players (Rand, Perrin, Mat, the White Tower). Whilst Lan and Ituralde are significant forces, they're not really in that top echelon.

doomsgate
11-28-2010, 02:23 AM
i read it more as all happening on one day.-In that day-

one eyed fool traveling the halls of mourning.
-Mat obviously and could the halls possibly be
Tar Valon or maybe even ToM at Imfarrel.

first among vermin raises hand to free he who will
destroy. -looks like rand and the seal breaking.

last days of the fallen blacksmiths pride shall come. - perrin but what is the pride? not wolves
they are packs, so any theories?

Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself" -so many contenders for this one Lan, Ituralde, Bashere, but my money is on Rand he has refered to himself as a wolf and whoelse's death could bring fear and sorrow and shake the will of everyone.

gonna have to do a series reread to flesh these thoughts but seem tangible atm.

aynatal2000
11-28-2010, 03:05 AM
Could the reference be Bashere? He is in line for the Broken crown... and he carries something with a wolf insignia, doesn't he?
His defeat at the hands of the Seanchan would affect many and shake the wills of many.He is a soldier and death definitely knows him.Min has seen something Dark in his aura- so not death but defeat?

Nei
11-28-2010, 06:58 AM
My money's on Bashere as well. We know that something is going to happen to him and as far as we can tell, it hasn't happened yet. I do think that by the end of AMOL, the path will be clear for Faile to take the Saldaean throne though.

Kalli
11-28-2010, 07:57 AM
last days of the fallen blacksmiths pride shall come. - Perrin but what is the pride? not wolves
they are packs, so any theories?

The last days of the fallen, refer to the last days of men. It's a dark prophecy and I think it refers to the impending freedom of the Dark One when he breaks the wheel.

The blacksmith's pride refers to Perrin growing to accept his role of leadership and taking pride in what he does instead of worrying what might be or what he perceives others should see him as. (finally.)

Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself

I think this refers to Ituralde and this section of the Dark Prophecy failed to occur. Rand saved him just as the Forces of Dark pushed has hard as it could to complete it.

Each side has foretellings, dreams, etc. has to how their side is going to win. That's been obvious sine TGH and has such neither side can have everything come true. This is part of a foretelling that has failed.

Helloes
11-28-2010, 08:15 AM
How about this, the Broken Wolf is Jain Farstrider. He was certainly broken, and he has known Death(note the capital D, Moridin). He's dead, and as he is a folk hero his death would certainly be a blow to morale.

I'm guessing the Fin's ate him aswell, thus the consumed part and there were three towers in their land if I remember correctly which could be the Midnight Towers.

Kimon
11-28-2010, 09:40 AM
How about this, the Broken Wolf is Jain Farstrider. He was certainly broken, and he has known Death(note the capital D, Moridin). He's dead, and as he is a folk hero his death would certainly be a blow to morale.

I'm guessing the Fin's ate him aswell, thus the consumed part and there were three towers in their land if I remember correctly which could be the Midnight Towers.

Farstrider's death should be a boon to morale, not a blow. He had a heroic, and redemptive death. How could people think that all hope will be lost, and his death will bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men? Everyone thought he was dead, it's not like everyone was relying on him appearing out of nowhere to save everyone.

If anything, he did appear out of nowhere and save everyone, since his death allowed for the return of Moiraine, who is essential for victory.

Kalli
11-28-2010, 09:42 AM
How about this, the Broken Wolf is Jain Farstrider. He was certainly broken, and he has known Death(note the capital D, Moridin). He's dead, and as he is a folk hero his death would certainly be a blow to morale.

I'm guessing the Fin's ate him aswell, thus the consumed part and there were three towers in their land if I remember correctly which could be the Midnight Towers.

Jain has never had the a nickname involving a wolf. Where as Ituralde nickname is the wolf.

The Midnight Towers as previously stated, in this thread, are more in line with Egwene's dream.

Glen
11-28-2010, 10:46 AM
Has anyone considered that the wording has been written intentionally to have two different interpretations?

"Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself."

What if by "his destruction", it doesn't mean his death, but the destruction he causes? Notice that it never says that the Broken Wolf will die, only that he will "fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers".

One possibility, therefore, is that it's actually referring to Slayer, who clearly is connected with wolves (in a very odd manner, of course - also note that he was wearing a golden wolfs-head buckle while in the Two Rivers), and who has been causing quite a bit of destruction. Slayer has clearly met Moridin (Death), and "consumed by the Midnight Towers" could mean 'used up by the forsaken'.

How would the world respond if it found out that Luc and/or Isam had died after having turned to the shadow and caused all of those problems? One is highly recognised by the Borderlanders, the other is closely connected with the royalty of Andor.

Here's what Dyelin told Rand about Luc in LoC: "After Luc rode north, never to return, whispers said Gitara had convinced him that his fame lay in the Blight, or his fate. Others said it was that he would find the Dragon Reborn there, or that the Last Battle depended on him going."

Why did Gitara send Luc to become a tool for the shadow? There's something more there than meets the eye.

Also note that Moiraine, who has just been rescued, knows that Isam still 'lives', and has known since tGH.


I suspect that the dark prophecy is referring to the day that Rand actually meets with all of the people gathered in the Fields of Merrilor.

Note that the prophecy rather clearly refers to Rand as the Broken Champion. It stands to reason that he's not "First Among Vermin". So who is? Well, who other than Rand is so intent to destroy the Dark One, he'd consider destroying the seals and releasing the Dark One on the world? Who fits the description of "First Among Vermin" quite well?

Fain, of course. Last seen heading into the blight, there's little doubt that he was heading straight towards the 'bore'. But why would he head there with no way to do anything until Rand arrives? It would be easier for him to hide near someone that would have to be there with Rand. I contend that he has gained possession of the remaining seals, and plans to destroy them, himself, when he gets there. And that he will get there pretty much just as Rand meets with everyone. I think he'll be convinced not to destroy the seals - but that Fain will have taken the choice away from him.

Two of the three remaining seals were last seen packed in barrels in tFoH. It would be trivial for Fain to steal them. The other one was given to Rand by Taim, and we haven't seen it since then, to my knowledge. I could certainly imagine Fain getting his hands on that one, too.


This would provide a much-needed twist, since clearly Rand hasn't actually figured out what to do once the seals are destroyed, and thus couldn't possibly be intending to destroy them while on the Fields of Merrilor. But with the seals destroyed by Fain, the DO's touch would begin, and TG would begin in earnest. We couldn't really have the entire series go without the DO being able to actually have free reign for a little while.

Kimon
11-28-2010, 11:20 AM
Has anyone considered that the wording has been written intentionally to have two different interpretations?

"Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself."

What if by "his destruction", it doesn't mean his death, but the destruction he causes? Notice that it never says that the Broken Wolf will die, only that he will "fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers".

One possibility, therefore, is that it's actually referring to Slayer, who clearly is connected with wolves (in a very odd manner, of course - also note that he was wearing a golden wolfs-head buckle while in the Two Rivers), and who has been causing quite a bit of destruction. Slayer has clearly met Moridin (Death), and "consumed by the Midnight Towers" could mean 'used up by the forsaken'.

How would the world respond if it found out that Luc and/or Isam had died after having turned to the shadow and caused all of those problems? One is highly recognised by the Borderlanders, the other is closely connected with the royalty of Andor.

Here's what Dyelin told Rand about Luc in LoC: "After Luc rode north, never to return, whispers said Gitara had convinced him that his fame lay in the Blight, or his fate. Others said it was that he would find the Dragon Reborn there, or that the Last Battle depended on him going."

Why did Gitara send Luc to become a tool for the shadow? There's something more there than meets the eye.

Also note that Moiraine, who has just been rescued, knows that Isam still 'lives', and has known since tGH.


I suspect that the dark prophecy is referring to the day that Rand actually meets with all of the people gathered in the Fields of Merrilor.

Note that the prophecy rather clearly refers to Rand as the Broken Champion. It stands to reason that he's not "First Among Vermin". So who is? Well, who other than Rand is so intent to destroy the Dark One, he'd consider destroying the seals and releasing the Dark One on the world? Who fits the description of "First Among Vermin" quite well?

Fain, of course. Last seen heading into the blight, there's little doubt that he was heading straight towards the 'bore'. But why would he head there with no way to do anything until Rand arrives? It would be easier for him to hide near someone that would have to be there with Rand. I contend that he has gained possession of the remaining seals, and plans to destroy them, himself, when he gets there. And that he will get there pretty much just as Rand meets with everyone. I think he'll be convinced not to destroy the seals - but that Fain will have taken the choice away from him.

Two of the three remaining seals were last seen packed in barrels in tFoH. It would be trivial for Fain to steal them. The other one was given to Rand by Taim, and we haven't seen it since then, to my knowledge. I could certainly imagine Fain getting his hands on that one, too.


This would provide a much-needed twist, since clearly Rand hasn't actually figured out what to do once the seals are destroyed, and thus couldn't possibly be intending to destroy them while on the Fields of Merrilor. But with the seals destroyed by Fain, the DO's touch would begin, and TG would begin in earnest. We couldn't really have the entire series go without the DO being able to actually have free reign for a little while.

This only makes sense if you can also account for the other two figures. Who amongst the forces of the Shadow could possibly be the "One-Eyed Fool" travelling the halls of mourning? Who could be the "Fallen Blackmith"?

Fain as the First Amongst Vermin in nonsensical. The fact that Moridin referred to him as vermin doesn't change the fact that it makes little sense to describe him as first amongst anything. Such a term works well for Rand in his role as the true Tamyrlin, or for Moridin as Nae'blis, but not for Fain.

Now Slayer as the Broken Wolf would make sense but for one large problem- it would be a non sequitur. Why have references to the three ta'veren and then to him. It doesn't fit in the pattern. Now I suppose that you could say that this is just crappy poetry- which would be true, certainly this prophecy lacks the poetic artfulness of the Dark Prophecy seen in tGH, but it does still seem to possess a sense of balance and logical patterning that would be tarnished by Slayer's inclusion here.

nameless
11-28-2010, 03:42 PM
Actually, Bashere's not a bad candidate. Doesn't his baton have a wolf head carved into it or something like that?

Neilbert
11-28-2010, 05:16 PM
More importantly, who is the Broken Wolf? At first I suspected Hopper because of the "one whom Death has known" line, but nothing else in the prophecy seems to apply to the way Hopper died the second time. There was no fear and sorrow in the hearts of men and no Seanchan involvement.

It's Hopper. It's obviously Hopper. It's so obviously Hopper that this whole discussion is downright silly.

From the Perrin chapter immediately following Hopper's death:

He needed to find something to do with his anger and his pain. He stood, turning, and was surprised to see how many lights still shone in camp. A group of people waited nearby, far enough away from him that he hadn't made out their scents specifically. Alliandre in a golden gown. Berelain in blue. Both sat on chairs beside a small wooden travel table, set with a lantern. Elyas sat on a rock beside them, sharpening his knife. A dozen of the Two Rivers men-Wil al'Seen, Jon Ayellin and Grayor Frenn among them-huddled around a firepit, glancing at him. Even Arganda and Gallenne were there, speaking softly.

"They should be sleeping," Perrin said.

"They're worried about you," Faile said. She smelled worried as well. "And they're worried you will send them away, now that gateways work again."

Men with shaken wills. Fear.

Perrin nodded. Something was coming together for him. "Are Grady and Neald asleep?" he asked.

"No," Berelain said. "They said they wanted to stay awake, just in case. I think your mood gave them a fright."

Fear.

He turned to look, and was amazed at the size of the crowd watching him. The Two Rivers men stood at the front, Jori Congar, Azi al'Thone, Wil al'Seen and hundreds more. Ghealdanin, Cairhienin, Andorans, Mayeners. Watching, quiet. The ground around Perrin was blackened from the falling sparks; drops of silvery metal spread out from him like a sunburst.

Nobody knows what to do so they all gather and watch Perrin forge a hammer. Shaken will.

Perrin felt exhausted, as if all of his strength and emotion had been forged into the metal. But he could not rest. "Wil. Weeks ago, I gave you an order. Burn the banners that bore the wolfhead. Did you obey? Did you burn every one?"

Wil al'Seen met his eyes, then looked down, ashamed. "Lord Perrin, I tried. But . . . Light, I couldn't do it. I kept one. The one I'd helped sew."

"Fetch it, Wil," Perrin said. His own voice sounded like steel.

Wil ran, smelling frightened. He returned shortly, bearing a folded cloth, white with a red border. Perrin took it, then held it in a reverent hand, hammer in the other. He looked at the crowd. Faile was there, hands clasped before her. She smelled hopeful. She could see into him. She knew.

Oh hey, another guy afraid.

"Perhaps," Faile said, walking around the anvil slowly, keeping her eyes on Berelain, who strolled around it opposite her. What was Berelain's game, here?

"Then we must speak with him," Berelain said. "Turn him from this course of action."

"This course of action?" Faile asked, genuinely confused.

Berelain stopped, her eyes alight with something. She seemed tense. She's worried, Faile thought. Worried deeply about something.

"Lord Perrin must not attack the Whitecloaks," Berelain said. "Please, you must help me persuade him."

"He's not going to attack them," Faile said. She was reasonably certain of that.

"He's setting up a perfect ambush," Berelain said. "Asha'man to use the One Power, Two Rivers bowmen to shoot from the heights down on the camp of the Children. Cavalry to ride down and sweep up after." She hesitated, seeming pained. "He's set them up perfectly. He told them that if he and Damodred both survived the Last Battle, he'd submit to punishment. But Perrin is going to make certain the Whitecloaks don't reach the Last Battle. He can keep his oath that way, but also avoid turning himself in."

Faile shook her head. "He'd never do that, Berelain."

"Can you be certain?" Berelain asked. "Absolutely certain?"

Berelain, scared that Perrin is going to kill Galad begs Faile for help.

"I have done as you asked," Berelain said. "And so now, I ask your aid. If it appears that he is going to attack them, please join me in trying to dissuade him. Together, perhaps we can manage it."

"Very well," Faile said.

Even Faile is a little shaken here.

"Infantry, ready behind the archers!" Perrin yelled. "Arganda, on the left flank. Gallenne, on the right! I'll call if I need you to sweep for us." He turned to the foot soldiers-mainly former refugees. "Keep in a tight formation, boys. Keep your shields up and your spear arms flexed. Archers, arrows to bow!"

Faile felt herself start to sweat. This was wrong. Surely Perrin wasn't going to . . .

Faile all shaken up.

The battle to save the Whitecloaks begins and:

Gallenne frowned. "Pardon, Lord Perrin, but I must ask. What is it that you feel you owe them? I would have sorrowed if, indeed, we'd come here to attack them-though I would have seen its logic. But I see no reason to help them."

There is our sorrow.

Hoppers death is the catalyst that sets all of this off. It is what spurns Perrin to take the actions that he does. In the PoV chapter immediately following the death of a wolf who has already died, Perrins followers are running around confused and disoriented, smelling afraid, and sad that Perrin is going to have them kill the whitecloaks.

Meanwhile, back at theoryland, people are speculating that the broken wolf is Bashere because he carries a baton with a wolf's head on it.

Good night.

Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself.


The weathered sign out front had a wagon wheel painted on it, and the official name was The Dusty Wheel. Everyone called it The Rumor Wheel instead; it was the best place in Caemlyn to listen to rumors. Most of them were untrue, but that was half the fun.

Mam A'Lemur
11-28-2010, 05:55 PM
I'm thinking last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride means the death of Faile. She seems to be his pride, after all. She's everything to him.

Glen
11-28-2010, 09:45 PM
This only makes sense if you can also account for the other two figures. Who amongst the forces of the Shadow could possibly be the "One-Eyed Fool" travelling the halls of mourning? Who could be the "Fallen Blackmith"?

Fain as the First Amongst Vermin in nonsensical. The fact that Moridin referred to him as vermin doesn't change the fact that it makes little sense to describe him as first amongst anything. Such a term works well for Rand in his role as the true Tamyrlin, or for Moridin as Nae'blis, but not for Fain.

Now Slayer as the Broken Wolf would make sense but for one large problem- it would be a non sequitur. Why have references to the three ta'veren and then to him. It doesn't fit in the pattern. Now I suppose that you could say that this is just crappy poetry- which would be true, certainly this prophecy lacks the poetic artfulness of the Dark Prophecy seen in tGH, but it does still seem to possess a sense of balance and logical patterning that would be tarnished by Slayer's inclusion here.
Why does First Among Vermin have to be one of the three ta'veren? Your reasoning would imply that Him who will Destroy must be one of the three, too.

The prophecy describes events that will occur on that day - Mat will rescue Moiraine is the first event. But there's no reason why First Among Vermin would have to be Rand, or indeed any ta'veren. We can be confident that the Broken Wolf is not Perrin, since it identifies him separately - if Broken Wolf isn't Perrin, then clearly that section of the prophecy doesn't have to refer to the ta'veren.

If you remove that expectation, and look at it separately, it makes more sense. And as I pointed out, Rand may be planning to destroy the seals, but he has yet to figure out what to do from there, so I doubt he plans to destroy them on the day of the meeting at Merrilor. He had to know that Egwene would not simply let him break the seals without at least discussing it with her, and that's she'd bring people to confront him. He's not going to break the seals right in front of them, just for the fun of it.

Here are the titles used in the prophecy: Greatest One/Great Lord (both obviously the Dark One), One-Eyed Fool (obviously Mat), First Among Vermin, Him who will Destroy (probably the Dark One), Fallen Blacksmith (Perrin), Broken Wolf, possibly Death (Moridin, or maybe Shaidar Haran), Lord of the Evening (probably either Moridin or Shaidar Haran... or maybe Rand, actually - I'll explain in a minute), and Broken Champion (Rand, or maybe Moridin).

It seems odd to me that, having used "Lord of the Evening" twice, it would refer to Rand by two different names that are entirely unconnected, just as it's unlikely that the "Fallen Blacksmith" is the same as the "Broken Wolf". And "First Among Vermin" as Rand doesn't make sense, simply because of "Vermin".

Here's something to think about - the word "Vermin" has its origins in the Latin word "vermis". Know what that word means? Worm! Remember what one of Fain's other names was? Ordeith, meaning Wormwood. I don't think Moridin calling him vermin is relevant, I think that's he's called vermin for his being an unwanted creature that upsets the balance in an entirely undesirable way.


I mentioned the possibility that Lord of the Evening is actually Rand. It's not referring to the Dark One, who would be Lord of the Grave. Lews Therin was Lord of the Morning. It is not entirely unreasonable to think that Rand, being the successor, the one that transitions the world into the next age, would represent the next transition - Evening. Keep in mind that night is not the same as shadow or darkness. This said, I do think it's significantly more likely that Rand is the Broken Champion, and the Lord of the Evening is either Moridin or Shaidar Haran.

Belazamon
11-28-2010, 10:37 PM
And "First Among Vermin" as Rand doesn't make sense, simply because of "Vermin".
It's a play off "First Among Servants," which was one of Lews Therin's titles back in the Age of Legends. The Dark One doesn't have a very high view of Aes Sedai.

Glen
11-28-2010, 11:04 PM
It's a play off "First Among Servants," which was one of Lews Therin's titles back in the Age of Legends. The Dark One doesn't have a very high view of Aes Sedai.

Except, this was part of the Prophecies of the Shadow, not the opinion of the Dark One.

Also, I feel I need to point out that the Shadow wanted to turn Rand - this would mean that "vermin" would be a very poor word for him. He's the lynchpin to the entire system, not an unwanted creature. Now, Lews Therin might have been described as First Among Vermin, but Rand isn't actually Lews Therin, and the prophecies on both sides never actually describe him as such.

I'd be more willing to consider Egwene to be First Among Vermin than Rand, as she now leads the Aes Sedai, and the Dark One undoubtedly despises the White Tower itself, and wants rid of it.

Belazamon
11-28-2010, 11:34 PM
but Rand isn't actually Lews TherinHe really is. It seems like you've missed some major character development over the last couple of books.

and the prophecies on both sides never actually describe him as such.You remember the bit in the Karatheon Cycle about the "Dragon Reborn," right?

I'd be more willing to consider Egwene to be First Among Vermin than Rand, as she now leads the Aes Sedai, and the Dark One undoubtedly despises the White Tower itself, and wants rid of it.The First Among Vermin "lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy." First off, Egwene's not a "he." Second off, there's really just one character who's been talking about doing anything that might be conceived as freeing the Dark One.

Look, I'm all for finding alternate explanations for things that people have overlooked - but there really, really isn't much ambiguity to this specific part of the Prophecy.

yasiru89
11-28-2010, 11:45 PM
Except, this was part of the Prophecies of the Shadow, not the opinion of the Dark One.

Also, I feel I need to point out that the Shadow wanted to turn Rand - this would mean that "vermin" would be a very poor word for him. He's the lynchpin to the entire system, not an unwanted creature. Now, Lews Therin might have been described as First Among Vermin, but Rand isn't actually Lews Therin, and the prophecies on both sides never actually describe him as such.

I'd be more willing to consider Egwene to be First Among Vermin than Rand, as she now leads the Aes Sedai, and the Dark One undoubtedly despises the White Tower itself, and wants rid of it.
The Dark One adored the White Tower until very recently- it played to his tune perfectly thanks to the combination of idiocy and self-importance Aes Sedai are by now exposed for.

I'm pretty sure First Among Vermin is indeed Rand, if only for the references to the Fallen Blacksmith (surely Perrin- there just aren't any other blacksmiths) and to the One-Eyed Fool (obviously Mat- unless Uno's been offered a place with Luca's show). Else it would be too incongruous and therefore more likely to seem very Creator ex ter'angreal (my own WoT substitute for deus ex machina, which I hope will catch on despite sounding silly :D) when a revelation to the contrary comes. Also, bringing freedom to He who will Destroy sounds too close to destroying the seals.
A curious point is the seeming double reference to Perrin with the Broken Wolf bit. I thought this might mean someone other than him as well, but then, Lan doesn't fit with 'wolf' as well as he should for prophecy purposes, and even if it can be said he has known death because of the situation after his Warder bond was severed and passes along (his death would surely dishearten the Malkieri and whoever else follows them), the being consumed by the towers of midnight bit makes no sense. If the Forsaken are meant there, they don't need to take care of the man personally, and Perrin's death would affect more people to boot.
(briefly I entertained the possibility that this Broken Wolf was Noal, but apart from being broken, he fit nothing else, just as for Ituralde, only the 'wolf' part works along with his men being disheartened by his fall)

So indeed, both references are to Perrin I think. His 'pride' might be, like someone mentioned earlier, a reference to wolves in general, or it might be to his arrogance in humility that we've had to suffer through till ToM.
Again, the Broken Wolf part is the more significant. I say Perrin does indeed fall in a confrontation with the Forsaken. But he continues to fight in the wolf dream- perhaps finally getting rid of Slayer. He might also find out (since wolves have ancestral memory someone might let him know) that he can be ripped out of there (he might even be a Hero of the Horn on death, if that's a necessary condition). He conveys this to Elyas, and Nynaeve, having seen this done, brings him back! This would be the only way I can accept the ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod theory and the one about Nynaeve healing death. Perrin just can't die when he finally became awesome. Awesome in such a way in fact that he would be a magnificent leader once the battle is done.

Glen
11-29-2010, 01:38 AM
He really is. It seems like you've missed some major character development over the last couple of books.

No, not at all. Indeed, Rand himself makes it clear that, while in a sense he's LTT, it's more that he has LTT's memories.


You remember the bit in the Karatheon Cycle about the "Dragon Reborn," right?

Reborn - in other words, not actually the same person, as Birgitte is the same person. Birgitte wasn't reborn, she's the same person she was before she died, she was pulled out of TAR. But Rand isn't actually LTT, he's the reborn soul of LTT. As far as I can see, the prophecies never refer to him as the Dragon, always as the Dragon Reborn.


The First Among Vermin "lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy." First off, Egwene's not a "he." Second off, there's really just one character who's been talking about doing anything that might be conceived as freeing the Dark One.

Look, I'm all for finding alternate explanations for things that people have overlooked - but there really, really isn't much ambiguity to this specific part of the Prophecy.
I wasn't saying I thought it was Egwene. I'm guessing you missed the point that I think it's Fain. And there's only one character who has been TALKING about doing it, but Fain does have means, motive, and opportunity to do it, and he's heading right for the very place that would be the obvious place to be when breaking the seals.

The Dark One adored the White Tower until very recently- it played to his tune perfectly thanks to the combination of idiocy and self-importance Aes Sedai are by now exposed for.

I'm pretty sure First Among Vermin is indeed Rand, if only for the references to the Fallen Blacksmith (surely Perrin- there just aren't any other blacksmiths) and to the One-Eyed Fool (obviously Mat- unless Uno's been offered a place with Luca's show). Else it would be too incongruous and therefore more likely to seem very Creator ex ter'angreal (my own WoT substitute for deus ex machina, which I hope will catch on despite sounding silly :D) when a revelation to the contrary comes. Also, bringing freedom to He who will Destroy sounds too close to destroying the seals.
A curious point is the seeming double reference to Perrin with the Broken Wolf bit. I thought this might mean someone other than him as well, but then, Lan doesn't fit with 'wolf' as well as he should for prophecy purposes, and even if it can be said he has known death because of the situation after his Warder bond was severed and passes along (his death would surely dishearten the Malkieri and whoever else follows them), the being consumed by the towers of midnight bit makes no sense. If the Forsaken are meant there, they don't need to take care of the man personally, and Perrin's death would affect more people to boot.
(briefly I entertained the possibility that this Broken Wolf was Noal, but apart from being broken, he fit nothing else, just as for Ituralde, only the 'wolf' part works along with his men being disheartened by his fall)

So indeed, both references are to Perrin I think. His 'pride' might be, like someone mentioned earlier, a reference to wolves in general, or it might be to his arrogance in humility that we've had to suffer through till ToM.
Again, the Broken Wolf part is the more significant. I say Perrin does indeed fall in a confrontation with the Forsaken. But he continues to fight in the wolf dream- perhaps finally getting rid of Slayer. He might also find out (since wolves have ancestral memory someone might let him know) that he can be ripped out of there (he might even be a Hero of the Horn on death, if that's a necessary condition). He conveys this to Elyas, and Nynaeve, having seen this done, brings him back! This would be the only way I can accept the ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod theory and the one about Nynaeve healing death. Perrin just can't die when he finally became awesome. Awesome in such a way in fact that he would be a magnificent leader once the battle is done.
I'm guessing you didn't read my first post in this thread. I think Fain is the First Among Vermin, and I think the Broken Wolf is Slayer. I really do have the feeling that the Broken Wolf's "destruction" may actually be a double entendre, refering to both his death and the destruction that he has caused - the destruction that he has caused obvious has brought fear and sorrow to men, while his death would likely lead to the public discovery of Luc and Isam as having worked for the Shadow - two very high-profile people, given that Luc is Lan's cousin and Isam is part of the royal family of Andor. Note that Isam was sent to the Blight by Gitara Moroso, presumably based on one of her foretellings.

Note that it's the Broken Wolf - Slayer is really in two distinct parts, Luc and Isam, hence "broken". Plus, both must have been turned to the Shadow. And Fain really does fit the description of "First Among Vermin". I wouldn't be surprised if the term sounding similar to "First Among Servants" is just a red herring.

After all, it does lead one to think it refers to Rand, in which case it all seems too obvious, and rather meaningless, as a prophecy.


On a related note, who thinks that this particular prophecy is the one that Moridin showed to Graendal early in the book? The one that made her think it meant that Perrin will die? If this is so, why was she so confident of it, given that it really isn't that clear? And why did she not note that it establishes other events occurring on the same day?

Another thought - "One-Eyed Fool" doesn't make much sense to the Shadow at this point, since they don't yet know that Mat has lost his eye. This seems odd to me. Not that I'm challenging that it's referring to him, or to him rescuing Moiraine... but it does suggest that there's more to this than meets the eye.

sythmaster
11-29-2010, 02:30 AM
Upon reading the prophecy:

"In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come. Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself"

It actually sounds to me that, "Yea, and the Broken Wolf" is a pause, not moving onto a different subject. So I'm in the Broken Wolf == Perrin boat.

As far as why Perrin is 'broken'.... I'm not sure, though "the one whom Death has known" seems to establish there might need to be clarification on 'which' Broken Wolf.

I dont think its Hopper, as he's not 'broken'. He's just is in the 'wolf dream'. However, it could refer to the wolf brothers. As they aren't true wolfs, and the wolfs actually find humor when Perrin doens't understand certain concepts. Using that logic (however sound it maybe) there would be 2 other options that we know of Elyas and 'Boundless' (Noam).

As fas as Slayer is concerned, I don't remember (and therefore could be wrong) but I can't recall any reference to him as a wolf. He was always a hunter/slayer.

To rule Elyas and Noam out, the next part of the prophecy says that "his destruction would bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of man".

Now while Elyas dying would be sad, I'm not sure how many men would find fear and sorrow in there hearts for him, he isn't that well known. And Noam even less.

Now as far as "consumed by the Midnight Towers" part, I actually think its a play on words for the Black Tower - as he's going to figure out why the dreamspike is there. (Midnight -> Dark -> Black)

My logic could fail there due to the plural on "Towers". Perhaps it has to do w/ the one in T'A'R and the one in the "real world".

Anyway, plenty of flaws in this so have at...

yasiru89
11-29-2010, 03:50 AM
No, not at all. Indeed, Rand himself makes it clear that, while in a sense he's LTT, it's more that he has LTT's memories.

Wrong. Go back to the conversation he had with Min in ToM while heading out to meet the Borderlanders. What he says is that he is no different and that what's new are the memories alone. He goes on to say that Lews Therin was always him and vice versa.


Reborn - in other words, not actually the same person, as Birgitte is the same person. Birgitte wasn't reborn, she's the same person she was before she died, she was pulled out of TAR. But Rand isn't actually LTT, he's the reborn soul of LTT. As far as I can see, the prophecies never refer to him as the Dragon, always as the Dragon Reborn.

I'm not sure you've understood about Birgitte. It's possible that the way she is now is how she was during her last life, but in her head she is every person she ever was. She remembers all those lives, which is why losing the memories, especially those of Gaidal Cain is painful to her.
The Karaethon Cycle itself is called 'Prophecies of the Dragon'- of course it refers to his rebirth, seeing as people don't know that this struggle is eternal and recognise only the figure of Lews Therin Telamon. The prophecies never distinguish between the two either- for instance, this is the case of the 'standing on his own grave' prophecy.


I'm guessing you didn't read my first post in this thread. I think Fain is the First Among Vermin, and I think the Broken Wolf is Slayer. I really do have the feeling that the Broken Wolf's "destruction" may actually be a double entendre, refering to both his death and the destruction that he has caused - the destruction that he has caused obvious has brought fear and sorrow to men, while his death would likely lead to the public discovery of Luc and Isam as having worked for the Shadow - two very high-profile people, given that Luc is Lan's cousin and Isam is part of the royal family of Andor. Note that Isam was sent to the Blight by Gitara Moroso, presumably based on one of her foretellings.

Note that it's the Broken Wolf - Slayer is really in two distinct parts, Luc and Isam, hence "broken". Plus, both must have been turned to the Shadow. And Fain really does fit the description of "First Among Vermin". I wouldn't be surprised if the term sounding similar to "First Among Servants" is just a red herring.

After all, it does lead one to think it refers to Rand, in which case it all seems too obvious, and rather meaningless, as a prophecy.


On a related note, who thinks that this particular prophecy is the one that Moridin showed to Graendal early in the book? The one that made her think it meant that Perrin will die? If this is so, why was she so confident of it, given that it really isn't that clear? And why did she not note that it establishes other events occurring on the same day?

Another thought - "One-Eyed Fool" doesn't make much sense to the Shadow at this point, since they don't yet know that Mat has lost his eye. This seems odd to me. Not that I'm challenging that it's referring to him, or to him rescuing Moiraine... but it does suggest that there's more to this than meets the eye.

I was pointing out that 'First Among Vermin' must necessarily refer to Rand. If your gripe is with the use of 'vermin'- these are the prophecies of the Shadow (if the 'Beg for your destruction!' was not clear enough) and from the Dark One's own mouth we have that he considers the Dragon to be his enemy. I hope your argument against this isn't the same 'not the opinion of the Dark One' as before, since the prophecy clearly exalts the Dark One, so it is from the point of view of the Shadow, and the play on First Among Servants is thus made clear (compare the opinion of Aes Sedai from the Forsaken- since at least back then, Aes Sedai truly were a hindrance to the Shadow, though under Egwene they might just be yet again instead of squabbling idiots).
Your theory that it is Fain is weak on several counts- you assume that he's somehow gotten possession of the remaining seals. Would Rand, the person actually directed towards breaking them, not check on them and have them collected? Indeed, he likely came to meet Egwene with them on his person (not to destroy them in front of everyone- but because he implied that he would Travel directly to Shayol Ghul afterwards). Destroying the seals is also plainly what Rand intends to do- there's not going to be any convincing him otherwise because we are led to the impression that this is indeed what must be done(I've elaborated on the wisdom of this here (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=131991&postcount=82)). Also, it makes no sense for Fain to destroy the things even if he had his hands on them- Fain is an embodiment of hatred toward the Shadow, why strengthen the Dark One? Even if he were under some delusion that he could challenge the Dark One after he's released, why bother going to Shayol Ghul at all then? He could break then wherever he wished- the Bore is everywhere, it's simply that its effects are apparent in Shayol Ghul due to a thinning of the Pattern, breaking the seals elsewhere would have the same effect if you don't mind not containing the Dark One to prevent his full release. Then he could just wait for Rand to kill/seal off the Dark One or be killed in turn and slug it out with whoever remains (though again- it's highly unlikely this is the course he's going to follow) His plan then is probably to strike at Rand at the flanks when it's least expected.
I don't even feel like humouring the Latin/Wormwood bit, we're working with the Old Tongue as the predecessor of the common tongue, and even a hint of that form violates the fantasy setting.
RJ has mentioned that the caravans Moiraine brought the ter'angreal from Rhuidean on have been warded by Rand so that none but him can access them. So if the remaining seals are indeed there, how exactly would Fain get past these wards? Also, the seal Taim brought along was given to Bashere- you would think he'd mention losing the thing at the earliest opportunity.
As for Rand not knowing what to do after breaking the seals- my guess is Moiraine helps shed some light (she'll know things, even if they might be vague, through her ter'angreal visions in Rhuidean or what she asked for from the Finn) on what Min has already uncovered.
The mention of Rand in that capacity is also not meaningless at all- it's how the Shadow knows that he will be destroying the seals, and likely why the Shadow hasn't made a direct play for them in a long while.

On the Lord of the Evening, this is either the Dark One (he has many names, not just Lord of the Grave- I even remember Lord of the Twilight as a name for him) or his champion Moridin. There's no basis at all to claim that it's Rand. Shaidar Haran meanwhile, seems to be a literal proxy of the Dark One. An avatar if you will. I don't think he's significant in quite the way Moridin is, though what becomes of him will be interesting to see.

I agree with you on one count however, that 'Death' might actually be the person- Moridin, or perhaps something to do with the Horn, since it also has a capitalised 'Moridin' in the inscription (which was supposedly added during the Age of Legends according to RJ- perhaps this was the reason- some other prophecy required it, a pre-prophecy if you will).

That said, the connexion you draw between Slayer and the 'Broken Wolf' is weaker still. Sure, he is Moridin's servant, but why 'Broken Wolf'? Even if the unreasonable explanation you've offered of why 'Wolf' (even Aram had a wolf pommel on his sword and Ituralde is nearly broken as well), why 'Broken'? Wouldn't 'Breaker of Wolves' be better then? And no, just for the sake of ambiguity is not an argument. There's probably going to be more about Slayer and maybe even to connect that Dark Prophecy from tGH in aMoL, but this direction is a dead end if ever I saw one.
I like the play on 'his destruction', but the 'consumed by the Towers of Midnight' among other things, makes very little sense.
Isam and Luc are all but forgotten and presumed long dead and gone. If you consider Slayer's role, whatever destruction he can bring lies in assassination- we haven't seen him do anything on the grand scale except in Tel'aran'rhiod, and what goes on there seldom reaches even the ears of common men. So even considered that way, it means someone from the Lightside is going to die- and very few candidates are so well loved that their deaths may very nearly shatter their followers' will. Perrin is again the obvious choice.

The only thing Graendal might have overlooked is that there might be certain criteria to set the event of Perrin's death. Even Moridin, who acknowledges that prophecies can have many interpretations and would have gone through every prophecy available (since it seems to be his hand at work in the prophecies of the Seanchan likely being corrupted and his having collected this Shadow prophecy likely indicates he has more, having been spun out of his prison periodically through the entire three thousand year span since the sealing of the Bore as Ishamael) claims that the meaning seems clear here. This is assuming this is the same prophecy Graendal saw, but then, if it was another, and if it was any clearer, the Shadow has an overwhelming and near insurmountable advantage simply in that its prophecies have both redundancy and clarity to them.

On the One-Eyed Fool- it doesn't quite matter that the Shadow might not know (and what's to say it doesn't- it might well have undisclosed dealings with the Finn- Lanfear was returned after all), if that location (Halls of Mourning) is significant. And even then, it doesn't tell them anything important about this figure apart from perhaps a criterion for the timing. This at the very least, clearly refers to Mat.

Sometimes the means of how something apparently clear comes about is a better plot device than a cheap twist. Just ask M Night Shyamalan. :D

Glen
11-29-2010, 05:46 AM
Wrong. Go back to the conversation he had with Min in ToM while heading out to meet the Borderlanders. What he says is that he is no different and that what's new are the memories alone. He goes on to say that Lews Therin was always him and vice versa.

I took that to be him referring to the voice of Lews Therin in his head - it was Rand all along, just a splintered part of his mind. Every other time he mentions the issue, he emphasises that they are memories of the life of Lews Therin that he has, and not that he is, directly, Lews Therin.

But I suppose it's all moot, in the end.


I'm not sure you've understood about Birgitte. It's possible that the way she is now is how she was during her last life, but in her head she is every person she ever was. She remembers all those lives, which is why losing the memories, especially those of Gaidal Cain is painful to her.
The Karaethon Cycle itself is called 'Prophecies of the Dragon'- of course it refers to his rebirth, seeing as people don't know that this struggle is eternal and recognise only the figure of Lews Therin Telamon. The prophecies never distinguish between the two either- for instance, this is the case of the 'standing on his own grave' prophecy.

I did understand the situation with Birgitte. My point was that it makes sense to refer to her as actually being Birgitte, whereas if she'd been spun out normally she'd be referred to as having the soul of Birgitte, not actually being her. When she finds Gaidal's soul, it won't actually be Gaidal, it will be a new person with Gaidal's soul.

As for my point about the prophecies not ever referring to Rand as LTT, the point wasn't that it never conflates them, as with the case of the "own grave", but that it never makes a reference to LTT's life in any sense. Having said that, I admit I made a mistake - the Karaethon Cycle does refer to him as the Dragon. But it never makes even a vague reference to LTT's existence in the AoL. The only carry-over is the term "Dragon".


I was pointing out that 'First Among Vermin' must necessarily refer to Rand. If your gripe is with the use of 'vermin'- these are the prophecies of the Shadow (if the 'Beg for your destruction!' was not clear enough) and from the Dark One's own mouth we have that he considers the Dragon to be his enemy. I hope your argument against this isn't the same 'not the opinion of the Dark One' as before, since the prophecy clearly exalts the Dark One, so it is from the point of view of the Shadow, and the play on First Among Servants is thus made clear (compare the opinion of Aes Sedai from the Forsaken- since at least back then, Aes Sedai truly were a hindrance to the Shadow, though under Egwene they might just be yet again instead of squabbling idiots).
Your theory that it is Fain is weak on several counts- you assume that he's somehow gotten possession of the remaining seals. Would Rand, the person actually directed towards breaking them, not check on them and have them collected? Indeed, he likely came to meet Egwene with them on his person (not to destroy them in front of everyone- but because he implied that he would Travel directly to Shayol Ghul afterwards). Destroying the seals is also plainly what Rand intends to do- there's not going to be any convincing him otherwise because we are led to the impression that this is indeed what must be done(I've elaborated on the wisdom of this here (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=131991&postcount=82)). Also, it makes no sense for Fain to destroy the things even if he had his hands on them- Fain is an embodiment of hatred toward the Shadow, why strengthen the Dark One? Even if he were under some delusion that he could challenge the Dark One after he's released, why bother going to Shayol Ghul at all then? He could break then wherever he wished- the Bore is everywhere, it's simply that its effects are apparent in Shayol Ghul due to a thinning of the Pattern, breaking the seals elsewhere would have the same effect if you don't mind not containing the Dark One to prevent his full release. Then he could just wait for Rand to kill/seal off the Dark One or be killed in turn and slug it out with whoever remains (though again- it's highly unlikely this is the course he's going to follow) His plan then is probably to strike at Rand at the flanks when it's least expected.
I don't even feel like humouring the Latin/Wormwood bit, we're working with the Old Tongue as the predecessor of the common tongue, and even a hint of that form violates the fantasy setting.
RJ has mentioned that the caravans Moiraine brought the ter'angreal from Rhuidean on have been warded by Rand so that none but him can access them. So if the remaining seals are indeed there, how exactly would Fain get past these wards? Also, the seal Taim brought along was given to Bashere- you would think he'd mention losing the thing at the earliest opportunity.
As for Rand not knowing what to do after breaking the seals- my guess is Moiraine helps shed some light (she'll know things, even if they might be vague, through her ter'angreal visions in Rhuidean or what she asked for from the Finn) on what Min has already uncovered.
The mention of Rand in that capacity is also not meaningless at all- it's how the Shadow knows that he will be destroying the seals, and likely why the Shadow hasn't made a direct play for them in a long while.

On the Lord of the Evening, this is either the Dark One (he has many names, not just Lord of the Grave- I even remember Lord of the Twilight as a name for him) or his champion Moridin. There's no basis at all to claim that it's Rand. Shaidar Haran meanwhile, seems to be a literal proxy of the Dark One. An avatar if you will. I don't think he's significant in quite the way Moridin is, though what becomes of him will be interesting to see.

I agree with you on one count however, that 'Death' might actually be the person- Moridin, or perhaps something to do with the Horn, since it also has a capitalised 'Moridin' in the inscription (which was supposedly added during the Age of Legends according to RJ- perhaps this was the reason- some other prophecy required it, a pre-prophecy if you will).

That said, the connexion you draw between Slayer and the 'Broken Wolf' is weaker still. Sure, he is Moridin's servant, but why 'Broken Wolf'? Even if the unreasonable explanation you've offered of why 'Wolf' (even Aram had a wolf pommel on his sword and Ituralde is nearly broken as well), why 'Broken'? Wouldn't 'Breaker of Wolves' be better then? And no, just for the sake of ambiguity is not an argument. There's probably going to be more about Slayer and maybe even to connect that Dark Prophecy from tGH in aMoL, but this direction is a dead end if ever I saw one.
I like the play on 'his destruction', but the 'consumed by the Towers of Midnight' among other things, makes very little sense.
Isam and Luc are all but forgotten and presumed long dead and gone. If you consider Slayer's role, whatever destruction he can bring lies in assassination- we haven't seen him do anything on the grand scale except in Tel'aran'rhiod, and what goes on there seldom reaches even the ears of common men. So even considered that way, it means someone from the Lightside is going to die- and very few candidates are so well loved that their deaths may very nearly shatter their followers' will. Perrin is again the obvious choice.

The only thing Graendal might have overlooked is that there might be certain criteria to set the event of Perrin's death. Even Moridin, who acknowledges that prophecies can have many interpretations and would have gone through every prophecy available (since it seems to be his hand at work in the prophecies of the Seanchan likely being corrupted and his having collected this Shadow prophecy likely indicates he has more, having been spun out of his prison periodically through the entire three thousand year span since the sealing of the Bore as Ishamael) claims that the meaning seems clear here. This is assuming this is the same prophecy Graendal saw, but then, if it was another, and if it was any clearer, the Shadow has an overwhelming and near insurmountable advantage simply in that its prophecies have both redundancy and clarity to them.

On the One-Eyed Fool- it doesn't quite matter that the Shadow might not know (and what's to say it doesn't- it might well have undisclosed dealings with the Finn- Lanfear was returned after all), if that location (Halls of Mourning) is significant. And even then, it doesn't tell them anything important about this figure apart from perhaps a criterion for the timing. This at the very least, clearly refers to Mat.

Sometimes the means of how something apparently clear comes about is a better plot device than a cheap twist. Just ask M Night Shyamalan. :D
This section is a bit of a ramble, so excuse me if I don't manage to address every point clearly.

The Dark One considers Rand to be either his greatest enemy or the greatest possible prize to win. Either way, "Vermin" has the wrong implications to it, as a vermin is a relatively trivial nuisance, something that screws things up, but would otherwise be harmless. The Shadow's opinion of modern Aes Sedai, on the other hand, fits the term "Vermin" quite well.

Yes, Fain needs to have gotten access to the seals. And the seals were warded. Remember, though, that there's been multiple mentions of wards failing throughout the later books, not to mention that Fain seems to have gained quite a lot of power recently.

So why would Fain destroy the seals? Simple - The two things Fain wants most in the world is to destroy Rand and to destroy the Dark One. The most obvious way to do this would be to force Rand to face the Dark One when Rand isn't ready, thereby ensuring that the Dark One isn't just sealed away, out of Fain's reach. Then, when Rand is defeated and the Dark One is weakened (in Fain's mind, at least), Fain strikes. In the unlikely case that Rand manages to seal away the Dark One (again, in Fain's mind), Fain can then attack Rand when he's weakest. Either way, Fain wins. And the reason to do it at or near the Pit is because we know, and Fain undoubtedly knows, that's where Rand will be.

The latin term wouldn't be an in-universe hint, it would be an author's hint, a choice of words meant to provide extra evidence. Also note that the Old Tongue has many words clearly related to existing languages (the word for horse is Caba, the latin name for the horse is Equus Ferus Caballus), while maiden is Mai, an obvious one).

While your guess that Moiraine has some idea what to do is certainly interesting, and worth consideration, it's still just a guess. As is my interpretation of the prophecy. At the end of the day, we're all guessing, and until the true sequence of events unfolds in aMoL to clarify them, we won't know the correct interpretation. Also, I never said anything about the value to the Shadow to know that Rand intended to break the seals.

The Lord of the Evening point was really more of a bit of musing, rather than any real prediction. I don't really think it's referring to anyone except Moridin or Shaidar Haran (as the physical form representing the Dark One)... well, except maybe Demandred, although that's unlikely. Rand was just a highly unlikely alternative.

I think that the capitalisation of Death is an indication that, no matter what, it doesn't just mean the death of a person, but something more concrete. It could conceivably actually mean the Wolf Dream, or it could actually be a reference to those who died but live again due to balefire (Mat, for instance - not that I think Mat is the Broken Wolf, of course).

The connection between Slayer and the Broken Wolf is not as tenuous as you might think. I pointed out that wolfs-head buckle, but it's just one example. Slayer is constantly connected with the wolves, in a negative sense (he seems to specifically target them in the Wolf Dream, and in reality, I think). He said a number of things in ToM that are suggestive of a deeper connection with wolves, although Perrin dismisses his claim by declaring that he's not a wolf.

The prophecy relating to Luc and Isam also lend credence to this idea - combining it with Slayer's penchant for killing wolves, it's reasonable to speculate that he's collecting their souls, to be used to make Darkhounds. This would be another connection to the wolves... having said this, I suddenly wonder... what if Hopper's soul was taken to be used to create a Darkhound? Gives a possible alternative explanation for "consumed by the midnight towers". And due to Hopper's knowledge gained from interacting with Perrin, it's possible that that Darkhound will be particularly dangerous. Just a thought, though.

Regarding Moridin's interpretation of the prophecy, the key word is "seems". It seems clear. And as I said, I don't doubt at all that the One-Eyed Fool is Mat, I just found it curious that it chose that description. It might be relevant to the interpretation - in the sense of understanding what it's referring to, as an event. Maybe the reference to the "halls of mourning" isn't actually the Tower of Ghenjei, but the Ways, for instance - Mat is likely to come back very soon, and be the one to fight the Trollocs in Caemlyn, as the rest of them meet with Rand. In order to end the flood without a way to destroy the waygate, Mat would have to go into the Ways and stop them from in there. But that's all speculation, of course.

This isn't me predicting a plot twist for the sake of a plot twist. I just can't see how, if Rand's going to destroy the seals immediately after that meeting, the remainder of the story can take up an entire book of size comparable to the last two. If he will know how to seal the bore permanently, then the whole book would end up being nothing but a description of the battle itself... in which case, it would be quite boring by the end of it. I'd expect about one chapter per major character for description of the last battle, perhaps two or three for the key trio - Rand, Mat, and Perrin. And one more for Rand, for the actual sealing. That would take the story to maybe 15-20 chapters. In other words, around half the necessary length of the book.

I just can't see it going the way it seems to be going. Rand wouldn't destroy the remaining seals before he was ready to work on sealing the bore. Surely RJ wasn't planning on having the entire series go by without the Dark One being able to directly touch the world at some point. To me, it seems more plausible that the seals will be broken before Rand is ready, and the most plausible way for that to happen is through Fain. Besides, why has Fain basically been totally absent for so long, only to be seen heading into the Blight in ToM? Last we saw him was in WH, in Far Madding. He wouldn't have just given up on "hunting" Rand, just to go visit the Blight. He must have a particular intent by heading for the Blight.

GonzoTheGreat
11-29-2010, 06:00 AM
As for my point about the prophecies not ever referring to Rand as LTT, the point wasn't that it never conflates them, as with the case of the "own grave", but that it never makes a reference to LTT's life in any sense. Having said that, I admit I made a mistake - the Karaethon Cycle does refer to him as the Dragon. But it never makes even a vague reference to LTT's existence in the AoL. The only carry-over is the term "Dragon".Well, there's the following:

TGH, Chapter 8, The Dragon Reborn
"The Karaethon Cycle says that the Dragon will be reborn on the slopes of Dragonmount, where he died during the Breaking of the World."

From what I remember of the books, the one dying underneath Dragonmount was LTT.
So there is at least one reference to his previous life in the KC. There may be more; we do not even know all of those Prophecies, after all.

yasiru89
11-29-2010, 06:53 AM
I took that to be him referring to the voice of Lews Therin in his head - it was Rand all along, just a splintered part of his mind. Every other time he mentions the issue, he emphasises that they are memories of the life of Lews Therin that he has, and not that he is, directly, Lews Therin.

A splintered part of the mind wouldn't have the knowledge and memories of another person, so if you mean for reborn souls to be different people you need to stick to something and decide what exactly it means for these different people to have the same soul. All mention you indicate is also pre-epiphany, when Rand was denying Lews Therin by thinking him the mad person sharing his head. And there's the quotes from the Karaethon Cycle.


I did understand the situation with Birgitte. My point was that it makes sense to refer to her as actually being Birgitte, whereas if she'd been spun out normally she'd be referred to as having the soul of Birgitte, not actually being her. When she finds Gaidal's soul, it won't actually be Gaidal, it will be a new person with Gaidal's soul.

Not so. When she talks to Mat about the life where she died in Finnland she relates things that happened to her, not to someone else who she shared some vague construct with that you're content to call a soul and leave to it. Also she says she was once called Maerion, clearly a different life from when she was called Birgitte, but she thinks of it in too intimate terms for it to have been someone else simply with the same soul (again, however you might wish to define that). Similarly, there's no exact Gaidal except that there's one vision of him as seen in Tel'aran'rhiod- he is the same person once reborn, only without the memories of all that he was in the past and with the chance to live and love again (a crucial point to Rand's epiphany).


As for my point about the prophecies not ever referring to Rand as LTT, the point wasn't that it never conflates them, as with the case of the "own grave", but that it never makes a reference to LTT's life in any sense. Having said that, I admit I made a mistake - the Karaethon Cycle does refer to him as the Dragon. But it never makes even a vague reference to LTT's existence in the AoL. The only carry-over is the term "Dragon".

Of course it doesn't because he was already called the Dragon- but that just reinforces the point more, that each and every incarnation is the same person just spun out into different circumstances without the past to bog them down.


This section is a bit of a ramble, so excuse me if I don't manage to address every point clearly.

As was necessary to counter or address each and every assertion made.


The Dark One considers Rand to be either his greatest enemy or the greatest possible prize to win. Either way, "Vermin" has the wrong implications to it, as a vermin is a relatively trivial nuisance, something that screws things up, but would otherwise be harmless. The Shadow's opinion of modern Aes Sedai, on the other hand, fits the term "Vermin" quite well.

I thought you agreed the prophecy had nothing to do with the Dark One's opinion. It is simply to be viewed by the eyes of those devoted to the Shadow- and as such, being the sort of prophecy it is, of course it would downplay and offend the Light! Also there's the fact that it's meant to be prophecy, and thus treats the Great Lord's reign as the inevitable conclusion of the struggle, so that any who try to hinder would indeed, in hindsight, be trivial nuisances. If you consider this using Moridin's logic from Rand's dream conversation with him, this makes seems even clearer.


Yes, Fain needs to have gotten access to the seals. And the seals were warded. Remember, though, that there's been multiple mentions of wards failing throughout the later books, not to mention that Fain seems to have gained quite a lot of power recently.

If Rand's wards were so easy to get through, wouldn't the Forsaken have just taken Callandor when he was still fumbling about with the Power? The evil of Shadar Logoth isn't powerful in that way as to break through wards of the Power, its strength is of a different sort. As for the wards failing, wouldn't you think that exactly in light of this, they would be checked upon more often?


So why would Fain destroy the seals? Simple - The two things Fain wants most in the world is to destroy Rand and to destroy the Dark One. The most obvious way to do this would be to force Rand to face the Dark One when Rand isn't ready, thereby ensuring that the Dark One isn't just sealed away, out of Fain's reach. Then, when Rand is defeated and the Dark One is weakened (in Fain's mind, at least), Fain strikes. In the unlikely case that Rand manages to seal away the Dark One (again, in Fain's mind), Fain can then attack Rand when he's weakest. Either way, Fain wins. And the reason to do it at or near the Pit is because we know, and Fain undoubtedly knows, that's where Rand will be.


Why wait for Rand to make it to Shayol Ghul then? Break them sooner still and Rand would surely be in trouble. But honestly, your presumption of Fain somehow managing to obtain the seals despite all the talk revolving around the seals surprises me- it is just so unlikely that it would make the entire Light side such morons that they'd deserve whatever fate the Dark One deals them. The whole development reeks of twist for the sake of a twist.


The latin term wouldn't be an in-universe hint, it would be an author's hint, a choice of words meant to provide extra evidence. Also note that the Old Tongue has many words clearly related to existing languages (the word for horse is Caba, the latin name for the horse is Equus Ferus Caballus), while maiden is Mai, an obvious one).

So your counter against this is that actual Latin words have sometimes made it in, when neither 'Vermin' nor 'Wormwood' is even given in Latin? Don't even bother to argue, think it a hint if you will, I will not attempt to dissuade you at all.


While your guess that Moiraine has some idea what to do is certainly interesting, and worth consideration, it's still just a guess. As is my interpretation of the prophecy. At the end of the day, we're all guessing, and until the true sequence of events unfolds in aMoL to clarify them, we won't know the correct interpretation. Also, I never said anything about the value to the Shadow to know that Rand intended to break the seals.

The difference being what is likely and what is simply far fetched. On the latter, you mentioned it was 'obvious' and 'meaningless' for prophecy, that's what I clarified.


The Lord of the Evening point was really more of a bit of musing, rather than any real prediction. I don't really think it's referring to anyone except Moridin or Shaidar Haran (as the physical form representing the Dark One)... well, except maybe Demandred, although that's unlikely. Rand was just a highly unlikely alternative.

Indeed. I vaguely remember the Lord of the Evening reference somewhere else unless I'm much mistaken, though I'm not sure where.


I think that the capitalisation of Death is an indication that, no matter what, it doesn't just mean the death of a person, but something more concrete. It could conceivably actually mean the Wolf Dream, or it could actually be a reference to those who died but live again due to balefire (Mat, for instance - not that I think Mat is the Broken Wolf, of course).


Likely. This last was how the Hopper theory came about I reckon.


The connection between Slayer and the Broken Wolf is not as tenuous as you might think. I pointed out that wolfs-head buckle, but it's just one example. Slayer is constantly connected with the wolves, in a negative sense (he seems to specifically target them in the Wolf Dream, and in reality, I think). He said a number of things in ToM that are suggestive of a deeper connection with wolves, although Perrin dismisses his claim by declaring that he's not a wolf.

'Broken Wolf' indicates a direct association- matching some individual to a wolf. We're told Isam likes killing wolves even more than Luc at one point- do you really not see the incongruity? Particularly with the 'Broken' part thrown in? I'm not sure I remember what you mention Perrin dismiss.


The prophecy relating to Luc and Isam also lend credence to this idea - combining it with Slayer's penchant for killing wolves, it's reasonable to speculate that he's collecting their souls, to be used to make Darkhounds. This would be another connection to the wolves... having said this, I suddenly wonder... what if Hopper's soul was taken to be used to create a Darkhound? Gives a possible alternative explanation for "consumed by the midnight towers". And due to Hopper's knowledge gained from interacting with Perrin, it's possible that that Darkhound will be particularly dangerous. Just a thought, though.

That's interesting. Though Hopper seemed certain that death in the wolf dream meant the final death.


Regarding Moridin's interpretation of the prophecy, the key word is "seems". It seems clear. And as I said, I don't doubt at all that the One-Eyed Fool is Mat, I just found it curious that it chose that description. It might be relevant to the interpretation - in the sense of understanding what it's referring to, as an event. Maybe the reference to the "halls of mourning" isn't actually the Tower of Ghenjei, but the Ways, for instance - Mat is likely to come back very soon, and be the one to fight the Trollocs in Caemlyn, as the rest of them meet with Rand. In order to end the flood without a way to destroy the waygate, Mat would have to go into the Ways and stop them from in there. But that's all speculation, of course.

I don't think the referred to 'day' has quite yet begun. Perhaps Mat goes somewhere we can come to identify with the mentioned 'Halls of Mourning'. Well to remember that absolute clarity is not the way of prophecy, Foretelling, Viewing, Dream, etc.


This isn't me predicting a plot twist for the sake of a plot twist. I just can't see how, if Rand's going to destroy the seals immediately after that meeting, the remainder of the story can take up an entire book of size comparable to the last two. If he will know how to seal the bore permanently, then the whole book would end up being nothing but a description of the battle itself... in which case, it would be quite boring by the end of it. I'd expect about one chapter per major character for description of the last battle, perhaps two or three for the key trio - Rand, Mat, and Perrin. And one more for Rand, for the actual sealing. That would take the story to maybe 15-20 chapters. In other words, around half the necessary length of the book.

There are enough threads to deal with as it is- the Seanchan for one thing and the Black Tower issue. I also believe, or perhaps hope, that the aftermath of the Last Battle isn't limited to an epilogue.


I just can't see it going the way it seems to be going. Rand wouldn't destroy the remaining seals before he was ready to work on sealing the bore. Surely RJ wasn't planning on having the entire series go by without the Dark One being able to directly touch the world at some point. To me, it seems more plausible that the seals will be broken before Rand is ready, and the most plausible way for that to happen is through Fain. Besides, why has Fain basically been totally absent for so long, only to be seen heading into the Blight in ToM? Last we saw him was in WH, in Far Madding. He wouldn't have just given up on "hunting" Rand, just to go visit the Blight. He must have a particular intent by heading for the Blight.

Throughout the series, I think it's pretty clear that the moment the Dark One is entirely free of the Creator's prison it's game over immediately. Even during the Age of Legends, this was enough of a concern to detract from Latra Posae's plan of a containment field around the Bore.
I wouldn't like to guess at Fain's intentions right now, but his appearance is more likely to be like that of a viper striking from among rocks than an event-maker where he rushes Rand by breaking the seals (which I reiterate- would be idiotic for him to possess what with all the talk about the very matter of them).

looqas
11-29-2010, 06:55 AM
My take on the matter.

I'm solely concentrating the Broken Wolf / Midnight Towers in this post.

I think it's Ituralde. It might be that Ituralde is killed at Fields of Mellilor / Tar Valon when the Seanchan attack. Last thing we saw him he was with Rand. But one man, be that even a great captain, should not really plunge the people into despair.

Or another take is that Ituralde allies with Seanchan and then the despair the nation will see makes more sense.

The second one is rather more far fetched since he's been fighting against them, but maybe the bickering in Fields of Mellilor will force him to resort to desperate measures to save his beloved Arad Doman.

Or Shadow might turn him. But him being a dark friend I guess would be difficult since Rand's presence seems to expose DFs now.

kikokix
11-29-2010, 09:24 AM
Could Hopper be the Broken Wolf? He has known Death after all.

Belazamon
11-29-2010, 12:35 PM
I took that to be him referring to the voice of Lews Therin in his head - it was Rand all along, just a splintered part of his mind. Every other time he mentions the issue, he emphasises that they are memories of the life of Lews Therin that he has, and not that he is, directly, Lews Therin.Except, of course, when he flat-out admits that he is.
"But you're him, too. You talk like you were the one who tried to seal the Bore. Like you knew the Forsaken personally."

Rand rode in silence for a time. "I suppose I am him. But Min, what you're missing is this: I may be him now, but he was always me as well. I was always him."

nameless
11-29-2010, 08:24 PM
On a related note, who thinks that this particular prophecy is the one that Moridin showed to Graendal early in the book? The one that made her think it meant that Perrin will die? If this is so, why was she so confident of it, given that it really isn't that clear? And why did she not note that it establishes other events occurring on the same day?

Another thought - "One-Eyed Fool" doesn't make much sense to the Shadow at this point, since they don't yet know that Mat has lost his eye. This seems odd to me. Not that I'm challenging that it's referring to him, or to him rescuing Moiraine... but it does suggest that there's more to this than meets the eye.

Yes, it's the same prophecy. Graendal's confidence may be an act. She does something similar with Shaidar Haran when she pretends to have everything under control even though she just screwed the pooch completely. The inclusion of Mat as the "one-eyed fool" in this prophecy doesn't make any less sense than Mat as the "fox that makes the ravens fly" in the light side version of the prophecies. Foretelling is, by definition, knowing about something that hasn't happened yet.

The structure of this prophecy makes me wonder about Rand's interpretation that prophecies are meant to act as if/then statements rather than flat-out predictions. If the early verses are fulfilled, then the later verses can also be fulfilled. If he can achieve all the prophecies, then he'll have a chance to beat the Dark One. Does this structure also apply to Shadow prophecies? Is the Broken Wolf definitely going to die, or is the prophecy just a message that his death is a necessary precondition for the Shadow's victory?

yasiru89
11-29-2010, 09:24 PM
Now that's an intriguing idea! I had overlooked that aspect of WoT prophecies (part of why I don't hate prophecies in this particular series despite generally finding them unsavoury). Perhaps this is why Moridin is adamant that the Lightside must never learn about them- so that they never have a chance to defend against attacks directed where these prophecies say in order to achieve the Shadow's ends.
Though I wouldn't be surprised if the Forsaken bungle up each and every prerequisite these prophecies demand through sheer incompetence.

GonzoTheGreat
11-30-2010, 05:51 AM
Though I wouldn't be surprised if the Forsaken bungle up each and every prerequisite these prophecies demand through sheer incompetence.Could explain why most of those prophecies are kept secret from them, too.

yasiru89
11-30-2010, 06:18 AM
Could explain why most of those prophecies are kept secret from them, too.
Makes me wonder about the phrase 'the Dark One's own luck' too- being sealed off with unreliable minions is hardly what I call good luck.

GonzoTheGreat
11-30-2010, 06:32 AM
Then again, he deliberately picks those minions for the qualities they have. So it doesn't seem to bother him overmuch.

yasiru89
11-30-2010, 07:07 AM
True. But considering the things coming out of the Blight and the situation at the Black Tower, I reckon we've only seen the Shadow's most basic gameplay. Perhaps the Forsaken (at least excepting Ishydin) are deliberately over-hyped so people will have them to focus on while other things go on unnoticed.

GonzoTheGreat
11-30-2010, 08:12 AM
I think that just about everything the Shadow does (Trollocs, DF, Forsaken, whatever) is merely diversion from the real actions the DO considers important. He wants to break free, it does not matter to him whether some random Saldaean survives until Time is destroyed or not. But all the hurly burly distracts the Dragon and those who could help him, and that's why it is useful.

Daemin
11-30-2010, 11:29 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the prophecies at the end of the books usually refer to the events of the book themselves?

If that is so, it must refer to events that happened or got set in motion in The Towers of Midnight.

Point number two is that these are from the Prophecies of the shadow, and refer to Rand as "The Broken Champion."

Here, then, is my interpretation. The Prophecies of the Shadow are a competing prophecy to those of the Dragon. Think of Min's visions about the future: they are only true if Rand wins. I think the same holds for the Prophecies of the Dragon/Shadow.

The shadow could have won if Rand went to TA as the broken champion, I.E. before his epiphany. I think there is strong textual evidence of this. Rand himself outright says "He almost had me," i.e. if he went on as he was, he would've been the shadows champion without realizing it. Hence, I contend that this prophecy has been negated, because he is no longer broken. Considering the connection between Rand, Perrin and Matt, I don't think its a stretch to say that Rand's change of heart had an unseen influence on Perrin's change of heart.

Had Perrin not reconciled the Warrior and the Smtih within him, he would indeed be the broken wolf. Had Rand not had his change of heart, he would indeed be the broken champion. Had neither of those things happened, the this shadow prophecy would've borne out.

Grig
11-30-2010, 02:06 PM
So did the Dark One win when Mat became the One-eyed fool and walked the Halls of Mourning? Because that part apparently happened.

Also, Sanderson already said the prophecies are not competing.

ArtK
11-30-2010, 07:14 PM
Let me start by elaborating on my opinion regarding foretelling (which, IMO, is the original source of prophecy):

IMO the foreteller is trying to achieve a foretelling that she (or he) wants to be true, viz. Elaida's. The connection with the future then forces the actual wording into a form that is true, as well as being as close as possible to what the foreteller is trying to achieve. There is no requirement that any specific interpretation of the foretelling must be true at the time of foretelling: the Wheel may have put off "deciding" which of several interpretations will become true pending further events. The application to Elaida's foretelling is obvious, but it also applies to dark prophecies (IMO).

With this in hand:

The prophecy relating to Luc and Isam also lend credence to this idea - combining it with Slayer's penchant for killing wolves, it's reasonable to speculate that he's collecting their souls, to be used to make Darkhounds. This would be another connection to the wolves... having said this, I suddenly wonder... what if Hopper's soul was taken to be used to create a Darkhound? Gives a possible alternative explanation for "consumed by the midnight towers". And due to Hopper's knowledge gained from interacting with Perrin, it's possible that that Darkhound will be particularly dangerous. Just a thought, though.

I agree here, but more strongly than "Just a thought". But it could also be Noam, whose experience as a human and leftover resentments could well cause his "destruction [to] bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself".

IMO "First Among Vermin" refers to Fain, but "Him who will Destroy" actually refers to Mashadar. (Although the foreteller may have been hoping it meant the DO, just as Elaida hoped (and believed, see her dream in IIRC LoC) the tower would be united under her.)

"Lord of the Evening", IMO refers to Rand, linking him with the Planet Venus. See here (at semi-random after a brief search) (http://www.mexicolore.co.uk/index.php?one=azt&two=fac&id=234) for a discussion of Venus as both morning and evening star, as well as many other sites and other traditions (Babylonian, etc.).

Belazamon
11-30-2010, 08:28 PM
IMO "First Among Vermin" refers to Fain, but "Him who will Destroy" actually refers to Mashadar.
I'm seriously bemused by the fact that people seem so eager to twist this one part of the Prophecy into strange and ill-fitting directions - especially when there's more of the Prophecy that is much more ambiguous.

ShadowLord
11-30-2010, 09:48 PM
Still, ArtK's reasoning is an interesting acute right into the unknown. :eek:

yasiru89
12-01-2010, 01:43 AM
I'm seriously bemused by the fact that people seem so eager to twist this one part of the Prophecy into strange and ill-fitting directions - especially when there's more of the Prophecy that is much more ambiguous.
This.

And these absurdly esoteric connections people are hell-bent on drawing from no matter where to cram their theories in to fit what's happened and is likely to happen.

Not that Fain (not Mashadar- since it's mindless smoke, but Faindeth could be coming to embody it) being 'He who will Destroy' is a stupid idea (a good one on the face of it actually), just that nothing else fits. And from the prophecy itself, with that last 'Beg for your destruction', 'He who will Destroy' is almost surely the Dark One.

Also prevalent are never thought out insta-dismissals. Just because Rand was the 'Broken Champion' somewhere means he can't be 'First Among Vermin' elsewhere (though, admittedly, Elaida might be appropriate for the latter)? Are prophecies in WoT the omniscient utterances they are in other series? Why then have back-ups like the Borderlander prophecy for those special just-in-case occasions? It doesn't matter to the one that another has been uttered (though foreseeably it does if the two together completely characterise a given situation- though this is more a plot requirement to keep things interesting) and perhaps some uncertainty (given all the quantum mechanics references we've had) is the only way to get away with these prods in the right direction that are WoT prophecies. On the instance here, Rand is 'Broken' no more (reforged in his own words), and perhaps 'Champion' snidely acknowledged the possibility that he would do the Shadow's work for it (as he nearly did).

Fie
12-01-2010, 04:18 AM
Just because Rand was the 'Broken Champion' somewhere means he can't be 'First Among Vermin' elsewhere (though, admittedly, Elaida might be appropriate for the latter)?

I don´t see that either. As well, in that respect, to me it seems entirely possible, that Perrin, too, is referenced twice, because the "Yea, and the Broken Wolf" can well be seen as a referral to the Fallen Blacksmith" - I mean, why "Yea" else ?
What I really don´t get is how anybody would take "First among Vermin" as Elaida or Egwene ? English is not my mother tongue, but I would think that "his hand" is quite clearly a man´s hand, no?
Another argument against First Vermin :D = Fain or whoever could be that it says "hand", not "hands" ? I´m not sure, but wouldn´t one rather use hands in such expressions? So if the First Vermin has got just one hand to lift, it would be most probably Rand.

On another point, the Blacksmith´s pride, from one whose first language isn´t english: pride as being sneakily a group of wolves, as I´ve read, would be unfair, because that "hint" wouldn´t work in many if not all other languages and I don´t think an author wouldn´t consider that in an outstanding thing as such a prophecy.

yasiru89
12-01-2010, 04:26 AM
The Elaida thing was a joke- she's an insignificant quantity that somehow got to the point of causing a great lot of trouble/annoyance (she actually helped make the White Tower prophecy come true, so she was an annoyance in a helpful way I guess). Never heard of Egwene as First Among Vermin though- again as you say, the 'his'.

Nice one with Rand!

Well, about Perrin, I'm somewhat in favour of the 'pride' being wolves theory actually, RJ has used songs and such (what with rhymes and all, loved the 'Trust' song) extensively before, so why not that? Also, he's not afraid to delve into language, Mat and Old Tongue for example (this is perhaps what makes him popular with the ladies :D)...

Fie
12-01-2010, 04:46 AM
ah, relieved to see it was a joke :) but I read of Egwene=First Vermin definately and in earnest, so I think there might as well be people arguing "the prophecy is old and didn´t know that Egwene would dethrone Elaida, so she has to be" etc. ;)

Well, of course you can take, say, shakespearean english, some obscure under-little-smalltown dialect and translate it appropriately into other languages, but I think somethig as concrete as taking a word with a double meaning just in the english language has to be off limits because it just doen´t work in a translation. Probably you might and may expect the pride--->group of wolves of readers of the english version, but there´s just no way to transfer that wording. I´ll be sure to have a look at the prophecies in the german version, when available, but I´m quite sure of the translation and "pride" would just have the one meaning...actually I was quite fond of the pride= wolves, too, when I first read it, but the thought that this hint would be exclusively available for readers of the english version struck me as so unfair ;) that it´s off for me.
meh, never mind, I´m thinking about such things to much, I just love languages and words and the like too much :rolleyes:

yasiru89
12-01-2010, 05:06 AM
Well, I once thought that, in a more symbolic sense, it might mean Perrin letting go of his insistence at being a simple blacksmith. It sounded humble (though incredibly annoying by CoT), but it was also pride of a sort.

Belazamon
12-01-2010, 02:09 PM
For non-native English speakers: a group of wolves is not a "pride," but rather a "pack." "Pride" refers rather to a group of lions.

Kimon
12-01-2010, 03:59 PM
For non-native English speakers: a group of wolves is not a "pride," but rather a "pack." "Pride" refers rather to a group of lions.

Not sure if I was the first to bring up the possibility that this "pride" was standing in for his pack of wolves, but the rationale I posited was that this change in typical phrasing (pride in place of pack) could be made because of his alliance with the Lions of Andor (by becoming Steward of the Two Rivers and Manetheren for Elayne, via Rand). I still maintain that it seems a logical reading, even if slightly convoluted, for "the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride".

It certainly seems like the type of reference that the Shadow might make to the Last Hunt.

Belazamon
12-01-2010, 11:35 PM
Eh, I think that's stretching it in unnatural ways. But honestly I just gathered from a few posts in this thread that some non-native English speakers might not know what a group of wolves was called - just trying to be informative.

yasiru89
12-02-2010, 01:21 AM
True, but even minutely connected threads like Andor Kimon noted, seem too convoluted.

CreationEdge
12-02-2010, 08:51 AM
For non-native English speakers: a group of wolves is not a "pride," but rather a "pack." "Pride" refers rather to a group of lions.

Or, other meanings:

pride
–noun
1.
a high or inordinate opinion of one's own dignity, importance, merit, or superiority, whether as cherished in the mind or as displayed in bearing, conduct, etc.
2.
the state or feeling of being proud.
3.
a becoming or dignified sense of what is due to oneself or one's position or character; self-respect; self-esteem.
4.
pleasure or satisfaction taken in something done by or belonging to oneself or believed to reflect credit upon oneself: civic pride.
5.
something that causes a person or persons to be proud: His art collection was the pride of the family.
6.
the best of a group, class, society, etc.: This bull is the pride of the herd.
7.
the most flourishing state or period: in the pride of adulthood.
8.
mettle in a horse.
9.
Literary . splendor, magnificence, or pomp.
10.
a group of lions.
11.
sexual desire, esp. in a female animal.
12.
ornament or adornment.

yasiru89
12-02-2010, 08:19 PM
Definition throwdown- engage!

CuShMaN
12-20-2010, 01:50 PM
"In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning"
>Matt traveling the halls of Finnland. Why mourning? Because they delight in emotion. What emotion do they love? Loss.. for example, Moraine's loss of power.. Or Matt's loss of half the light of the world. Loss is mourning.

"and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy,"
>Glen is right. It's not Rand, it's Fain, the first among the Dark Creatures.. literally the one who controls them. Rand will not have to break the seals.. somehow, Fail will either steal them, already has them, or will show up at the Big meeting and do the job.

"the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come."
>Perrin's pride is his transition from Blacksmith to Leader. He was proud to be a simple man, a worker.. and would not let go of it.. but he finally grew up. Some think it's Faile dying.. but that's not going to happen.. RJ didn't spend all that time rescuing Faile just to kill her.

"Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself."
>The Midnight Towers, otherwise known as the Towers of Midnight, are in the Glossary as a Seanchan unoccupied set of buildings. Which character will bring fear by his destruction? It can't be Rand, Matt or Perrin because they can’t die until the Last Battle (All 3 needed). Ituralde, is not broken or dead and frankly not popular enough. Nobody knows who Hopper is. And Nobody really knows who Noam is and the death of Jaim will not “Shake our will”.. sorry.. neither will the death of any of the tertiary, non-essential characters. Which leaves a few evil characters, like Taim and Isam, etc... who most will celebrate when dead. So, finally.. alas.. we are left with Lan, obviously broken, and death has known his whole nation. A lone Wolf, without a people or pack. But if he is heading into the Blight.. then he’s on the other side of the world from the Seanchan. Or perhaps, the Seanchan towers are not what they seem.

Belazamon
12-20-2010, 06:00 PM
~headdesk~

Someone needs to get Brandon to quash this "Fain is the 'First Among Vermin'" thing. I don't know why, but for some reason it frustrates me as much as the Magical Walking Tree theory ever did.

frenchie
12-20-2010, 06:54 PM
~headdesk~

Someone needs to get Brandon to quash this "Fain is the 'First Among Vermin'" thing. I don't know why, but for some reason it frustrates me as much as the Magical Walking Tree theory ever did.

Now now, let's ignore the fact that LTT was " First among the Servants" and concentrate entirely upon the fact that Moridin referred to Fain as " that vermin" Yeah, that is the best line of reasoning.

Belazamon
12-20-2010, 09:43 PM
Because it only took a few minutes, I went ahead and did a search for "vermin" in all the books prior to tGS (don't have that or ToM in easily searchable format). In all, the word "vermin" appeared fifteen times in thirteen books. Here's the breakdown:


tEotW - 0
tGH - 1, refers to false Dragons
tDR - 0
tSR - 0
tFoH - 1, refers to Taraboners
LoC - 1, about Aiel
aCoS - 1, about actual vermin
tPoD - 0
WH - 2, about rats (but really about Taim); 2, about Masema's Dragonsworn; 1, about Fain
CoT - 3, all about actual vermin
KoD - 1, about actual vermin
NS - 0
BWB - 2, about actual vermin


Why did I do this? I have no real idea.

Uno
12-20-2010, 10:17 PM
Why did I do this? I have no real idea.

One might almost say you're beating a dead horse, but rather tactless in your case, I suppose.

The Immortal One
12-26-2010, 01:50 AM
"Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself."
>So, finally.. alas.. we are left with Lan, obviously broken, and death has known his whole nation. A lone Wolf, without a people or pack. But if he is heading into the Blight.. then he’s on the other side of the world from the Seanchan. Or perhaps, the Seanchan towers are not what they seem.

If you're serious here then I have to point out that Lan does have a 'people or pack'. Now anyway. His most recent plot has been entirely about getting to know his people, accepting his people, and finally leading his people against the Shadow.

GonzoTheGreat
12-26-2010, 04:44 AM
If you're serious here then I have to point out that Lan does have a 'people or pack'. Now anyway. His most recent plot has been entirely about getting to know his people, accepting his people, and finally leading his people against the Shadow.When you put it like that, it rather sounds like Perrin, doesn't it?

Terez
12-26-2010, 12:08 PM
The fact that it was Moridin who referred to Fain as 'vermin' is what makes it strong; Moridin is familiar with all of the Dark Prophecies so he might know something we don't know.

danmickleson
01-01-2011, 07:43 AM
The Broken Wolf is Perrin as he appears in the Wolf Dream. Broken because he hadn't been able to reconcile the two parts of himself, human and wolf.

Ituralde was a possibility, meant to fall at Maradon. I don't think that's it though.

Hopper was also a chance, the one Death has known, will fall (Hopper literally fell).

A tenuous wolf-link to Lan is his relation to Isam/Slayer, who is bound to the Wolf Dream. This could also mean the Midnight Towers is Isam, referring to the towers of Malkier of his heritage.

But I think it's Perrin in the Dream. As there is distinction between Isam and Luc, so has the Dark Prophecy distinguished between real Perrin and Dream Perrin.

Also lean toward the First Among Vermin being Fain, because it's not Rand (Broken Champion) and there aren't any other strong contenders. The hand reference has something to do with how he's always cutting his fingers.

The rest are pretty obvious, I would have thought.

joep
02-08-2011, 11:33 AM
I haven't seen this anywhere, but it is possible that the One-Eyed Fool and the First Among Vermin are both Mat. Mat is the Prince of Ravens, which may translate to that. It is possible that Perrin is both the Fallen Blacksmith and the Broken Wolf.

It is common in the bible to refer to one thing by two different names. This prophecy may reflect that style.

Also - it is apparent that the Black Ajah had access to this prophecy for years, judging by the dead Blacksmith in New Spring.

norspd
02-18-2011, 07:41 AM
If Broken Wolf = Perin, then maybe the Fallen Blacksmith refers to the Creator and the Blacksmith sentence indicates destruction of the Pattern and/or the world?

Spasmodean
02-18-2011, 09:21 AM
Also - it is apparent that the Black Ajah had access to this prophecy for years, judging by the dead Blacksmith in New Spring.

I think you need to re-read the particulars of New Spring :P

That Blacksmith in question had shown a recent lucky streak. The BA had no clue that the Dragon was just born and so were killing all men that had recently had a great deal of luck as that's generally how channeling manifests itself in people unawares, something good happens or they get something they really want etc.

joep
02-18-2011, 12:23 PM
I think you need to re-read the particulars of New Spring :P

That Blacksmith in question had shown a recent lucky streak. The BA had no clue that the Dragon was just born and so were killing all men that had recently had a great deal of luck as that's generally how channeling manifests itself in people unawares, something good happens or they get something they really want etc.

The Blacksmith didn't have luck - he had leadership qualities. He convinced his guild to collect money for the poor. He was bringing money that he had collected when he was murdered. Moiraine attributed it to his "rise to prominence with unexpected suddenness". Basically Taveren-ness, but not neccessarily luck.

Terez
02-18-2011, 01:04 PM
Broken Wolf is Rand, end of.

Heinz
02-18-2011, 02:19 PM
I actually like the Bashere thought, though admittedly I don't have anything you all would consider 'concrete' and would change positions over.

There's his wolf-head baton (or was it his sword? Going off memory here at work.) There's the Broken Crown. Do we know his personal or house sigil?

Many feel something will happen to Bashere, something bad. Min's viewing. But her viewing also had a dark feeling about it, which was puzzling. Do we know that he hasn't been affected or influenced in some way similar to Farstrider or Luc/Isam? That would fit the 'Death has known' part. I recall seeing a few Bashere/Faile are Darkfriends theories about, but as I've been re-reading (in the beginning of tFoH now) I have watched Faile more closely, and her reactions to Perrin don't fit that for me. Still, I could see us finding something dark about Bashere, and would find that more enjoyable if he in turn resisted like Verin.

Given the right circumstances, such as him leading the armies against a Seanchan invasion, his being broken (either his army or himself falling in battle) could be a big deal.

I see that far more likely than, say, Ituralde. Ituralde has the nickname, but not the noteriety. It could refer to Rand, that was my initial reaction (since it didn't make sense to me to refer to Perrin in two different ways, one after the other), but I don't see any significant link for this other than his death being a huge blow to moral. The wolves called him Shadowkiller, but not Shadowwolf or something like that. He's never referred to as a wolf otherwise. There isn't really a reason for the correlation. So while it would not surprise me to find out that it does refer to Rand, I just don't see why.

But then, Prophecy often doesn't make sense until after it has been fulfilled anyway! Hence why it is dangerous, as Moiraine says, to make Prophecy fit your plans/actions ahead of time.

Terez
02-18-2011, 03:30 PM
The 'one whom Death has known' is a huge clue that it's Rand, aside from the fact that the reaction to his destruction doesn't fit anyone else, not even remotely. Wolf connections can be made, as I noted in my article (https://docs.google.com/View?docID=dcjspjqg_993c9jzmgdv&revision=_latest)addressing the subject.

Spasmodean
02-18-2011, 05:35 PM
He's never referred to as a wolf otherwise.

I think Sorilea called him a wolf once.

Terez
02-18-2011, 05:46 PM
Indeed she did. Good one.

Edit: double thanks, because all three quotes including that one that tie Rand to the Broken Wolf are thematically connected by his mission to become harder. It's perfect, goes with Shadowkiller perfectly in the scene on Dragonmount, and goes with the Biblical wolf in sheep's clothing perfectly too.

phil01
02-25-2011, 02:46 PM
I believe the broken wolf is bashere. I believe one of the forsaken broke him when there was the assisantion attempt on his wife. (there was a comment after that about him agreeing to do something for someone) I always had the impression that he had agreed to betray Rand to protect his family. Hence they broke him. He has the wolf sigil and for him to go to the darkside would certainly affect a lot of people. Rand, Perrin the borderlanders . . . .

Heinz
02-25-2011, 03:09 PM
I like the symbolic tie-ins with it being the possibility of Bashere, as I've stated before.

But the line about the Broken Wolf's destruction is killer to that theory, I think.

"And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself."

I do not think that the defeat of Bashere and the loss of every soldier under his command, the most publically dramatic 'destruction' of Bashere that I can think of, would 'shake their very will.' of other armies and peoples under Rand.

There is the mild possibility that if Bashere was somehow turned, or just coerced into betraying the Light, that it could shake the very will of Saldean and other Borderlander men in the armies, thus fulfilling the passage. I don't think that's a major enough of an event to warrent Prophecy, however.

With the other links to Rand being a 'wolf' that others have stated here, though I don't especially like another reference to Rand and under a different name, I do figure the 'Broken Wolf = Rand' camp is correct.

Terez
02-25-2011, 03:16 PM
I believe the broken wolf is bashere. I believe one of the forsaken broke him when there was the assisantion attempt on his wife. (there was a comment after that about him agreeing to do something for someone) I always had the impression that he had agreed to betray Rand to protect his family. Hence they broke him. He has the wolf sigil and for him to go to the darkside would certainly affect a lot of people. Rand, Perrin the borderlanders . . . .
You were supposed to have figured out that he was simply taking Logain up on his offer to find Rand using the Warders in Cairhien.