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Davian93
11-29-2010, 12:49 PM
I'm rereading the Harry Potter books (I'm halfway through Goblet of Fire) right now and I had an interesting thought:

I think the Weasleys aren't nearly as innocent and friendly as they appear to be. I think they basically attached themselves to Harry to use his fame for their own gain in the beginning. Think about it. They likely recognized him on the train platform in Sorceror's Stone...hell, they probably highly encouraged Ron, Fred and George to "bump" into him on the Hogwarts Express and befriend him. Think about it, the Weasleys are very poor and lacking in influence in the Wizarding world. HP is the biggest celebrity in that world...having him as a close family friend/informally adopted son opens a lot of doors for them. It clearly helps Arthur out in the Ministry, it gets them cool things like box seat tickets to the Quidditch World Cup, reinforces a relationship with other influential wizards like Dumbledore, etc etc. It would make total sense for them to nurture and maintain that connection.

So yeah, those Weasleys are a bit craftier than they might appear on the surface. I also tend to wonder why they're so poor? Arthur works for the gov't...presumeably the ministry pays fairly well. 3 of their sons get pretty good jobs. Considering basically all of their kids are gone most of the year, why aren't they a 2 income family if they're that poor? Isn't Molly qualified for anything? Couldn't she at least work part-time or something?

Belazamon
11-29-2010, 02:01 PM
Heh. Your paranoia would serve you well in the Dark Lord's service. ;)

Seriously, we got to see enough of Arthur and Molly that I don't think there's any chance of them being as conniving as you speculate. Now, Fred and George? They're good guys, but being able to wave about their connection with the Great Harry Potter was indubitably something they used with great aplomb whenever they could. I just don't think they'd have abused that relationship. And Ron... really just isn't bright enough to think of it. ;)

As for their financial straits - I don't remember if it's really stated outright or if it's just between the lines, but Arthur's Muggle Studies job seems like it's a joke in the Ministry more than anything. A couple of people in the wizarding world understand that muggles are more relevant than most think, but I don't think anyone working high up in the Ministry gives half a crap about them really. And as for why Molly doesn't work - well, honestly, they're the ol' literary standby "poor but happy" family.

Davian93
11-29-2010, 02:17 PM
Heh. Your paranoia would serve you well in the Dark Lord's service. ;)

Seriously, we got to see enough of Arthur and Molly that I don't think there's any chance of them being as conniving as you speculate. Now, Fred and George? They're good guys, but being able to wave about their connection with the Great Harry Potter was indubitably something they used with great aplomb whenever they could. I just don't think they'd have abused that relationship. And Ron... really just isn't bright enough to think of it. ;)

As for their financial straits - I don't remember if it's really stated outright or if it's just between the lines, but Arthur's Muggle Studies job seems like it's a joke in the Ministry more than anything. A couple of people in the wizarding world understand that muggles are more relevant than most think, but I don't think anyone working high up in the Ministry gives half a crap about them really. And as for why Molly doesn't work - well, honestly, they're the ol' literary standby "poor but happy" family.

I agree on Ron...but I tend to think Arthur and Molly gave him a gentle push to "befriend" the poor confused boy they meet on the platform fully knowing its the famous Harry Potter. I dont think they really abuse the situation but I'm sure they didn't ignore the obvious implications of befriending someone like HP.

Ishara
11-29-2010, 02:23 PM
I'd agree with Bela, Dav.

Harry benefited from his relationship with the Weasley's more than they did with Harry.

- thier son dies
- their other son has his ear removed
- their other other son is mauled by a werewolf and the long-term affects of that are still unclear

The financial gain that they "leveraged" from their relationship with Harry amounted to a couple of free rides, and a LOT of beaurocratic headaches.

As for their financial status, the 2 oldest may have jobs, but I didn't get the impression that working with dragons was exactly lucrative, or that Bill contributed to the family expenses. Percy was aliented from the family for most of his tenure and was certainly not contributing.

George and Fred were in the beginning stages of starting a business, no extra money there.

As a guy, I figured you'd factor in the cost of housing and feeding FIVE boys, not to mention clothing them in expensive private school duds. I'm thinking they're still paying it all off. ;)

Besides which, the Weasley/ Prewitt combination is about as "good" as you'll get.

Davian93
11-29-2010, 02:31 PM
Kids dont cost money...they make money. You just have to force them to sew wallets for export. On Hogwart's tuition, you'd think they'd get some sort of Magic Pell Grant to help with that or at least some tax breaks. We know that there's a program in place for destitute Wizards to attend the school (as Tom Riddle used it and there's no indication that Harry ever had to pay tuition...though he should of as he was apparently fairly wealthy thanks to his inheritance.


Seriously though, with magic available, why is money so important for them anyway? Why cant they conjure up what they need when it comes to basic necessities.

And I didn't mean to imply that their gain was merely financial...they probably gained lots of influence in the end too. I'm sure Arthur has far more connections after the war with Voldemort than he did previously in his dead end gov't job.

Ishara
11-29-2010, 02:44 PM
Kids dont cost money...they make money. You just have to force them to sew wallets for export. On Hogwart's tuition, you'd think they'd get some sort of Magic Pell Grant to help with that or at least some tax breaks. We know that there's a program in place for destitute Wizards to attend the school (as Tom Riddle used it and there's no indication that Harry ever had to pay tuition...though he should of as he was apparently fairly wealthy thanks to his inheritance.


Seriously though, with magic available, why is money so important for them anyway? Why cant they conjure up what they need when it comes to basic necessities.

And I didn't mean to imply that their gain was merely financial...they probably gained lots of influence in the end too. I'm sure Arthur has far more connections after the war with Voldemort than he did previously in his dead end gov't job.

The Fourth Law of ...something something. It's in the last book. Can't make something from nothing. It's why the kids can't use magic to feed themselves when they're out camping the moors.

Sarevok
11-29-2010, 03:04 PM
The Fourth Law of ...something something. It's in the last book. Can't make something from nothing. It's why the kids can't use magic to feed themselves when they're out camping the moors.

The fourth exception to Gamp's law of elementary transfiguration. :p

Davian93
11-29-2010, 03:04 PM
The Fourth Law of ...something something. It's in the last book. Can't make something from nothing. It's why the kids can't use magic to feed themselves when they're out camping the moors.

Sometimes I get the feeling that Rowling "occasionally" just made things up as she went along...

Uno
11-29-2010, 03:14 PM
Sometimes I get the feeling that Rowling "occasionally" just made things up as she went along...

At least it's good to know that she's the only fantasy author that would do something like that.

Ishara
11-29-2010, 04:26 PM
The fourth exception to Gamp's law of elementary transfiguration. :p

That one!

Jokeslayer
11-29-2010, 05:09 PM
On Hogwart's tuition, you'd think they'd get some sort of Magic Pell Grant to help with that or at least some tax breaks. We know that there's a program in place for destitute Wizards to attend the school (as Tom Riddle used it and there's no indication that Harry ever had to pay tuition...though he should of as he was apparently fairly wealthy thanks to his inheritance.


There's no evidence anyone paid tuition at Hogwarts, is there? IIRC that fund is specifically stated to be for books and so on.

Ishara
11-29-2010, 07:47 PM
You're right. Tuition was not required. Makes you wonder what kind of taxes wizards pay, eh? But books, robes, magical acoutrements...all add up!

Davian93
11-29-2010, 09:30 PM
There's no evidence anyone paid tuition at Hogwarts, is there? IIRC that fund is specifically stated to be for books and so on.

Hmm...good point. Damn socialist wizards with their free education.

E2RYT
01-02-2011, 03:17 PM
Who befriended who? I think it was Harry who stuck with Ron and who needed a friend more. Ron would do alright without Harry. Harry was confused about a lot of things and needed a steady friend with an uncomplicated life.

Davian93
01-02-2011, 05:39 PM
Who befriended who? I think it was Harry who stuck with Ron and who needed a friend more. Ron would do alright without Harry. Harry was confused about a lot of things and needed a steady friend with an uncomplicated life.

Yeah, that's what the Weasleys wanted you to think. They're quite crafty when you really look at it.

nameless
01-02-2011, 05:49 PM
Speaking of suspicious things in Harry Potter, what was up with the Goblet of Fire? I mean, the whole point is to get Harry to touch the enchanted trophy, right? Couldn't the villains just put that same spell on a pencil or something and hand it off in the first chapter? Why go through a whole crazy tournament?

Davian93
01-02-2011, 05:52 PM
Speaking of suspicious things in Harry Potter, what was up with the Goblet of Fire? I mean, the whole point is to get Harry to touch the enchanted trophy, right? Couldn't the villains just put that same spell on a pencil or something and hand it off in the first chapter? Why go through a whole crazy tournament?

Well, you see, it was like one of those, um, things where it had to look like an accident or something...and like that was the only way...yeah, that's the ticket.

GonzoTheGreat
01-03-2011, 04:46 AM
Couldn't the villains just put that same spell on a pencil or something and hand it off in the first chapter? Why go through a whole crazy tournament?I think they tried something like that in one of the other books, and then some crazy fan girl ate the necklace Harry was supposed to start wearing, or something*.

The GoF was an attempt to avoid Harry's ta'veren influence, and it worked well enough. I would say that makes it one of the better Evil Genius Schemes.

* I'm just a bit vague on the exact details, as you may notice.

Davian93
01-03-2011, 08:01 AM
I think they tried something like that in one of the other books, and then some crazy fan girl ate the necklace Harry was supposed to start wearing, or something*.

The GoF was an attempt to avoid Harry's ta'veren influence, and it worked well enough. I would say that makes it one of the better Evil Genius Schemes.

* I'm just a bit vague on the exact details, as you may notice.

What's wrong with using an overly elaborate yet easily escapable plot to have him killed?

I mean, sure, Voldemort could have just ordered a lackey to kill him but where's the fun in that? I mean, its not like Fake Mad Eye could have killed him or anything in the ENTIRE YEAR they were together with very little supervision. Voldemort never fully understood the power of Rowling that protected Harry.

Zanguini
01-03-2011, 02:39 PM
the plot has a few things
first Voldemort is obsessed with killing harry himself. Second voldemort needs harrys blood so harrys wont kill him everytime he touches harry. next I believe it took some time to gather the necessary ingredients for voldemorts rebirth. And i figure that the bad guys were trying to make harrrys death look like an accident in the maze as voldemort likes to work from the shadows.

what i dont get is why they had to cancel quiditch

Davian93
01-03-2011, 03:00 PM
the plot has a few things
first Voldemort is obsessed with killing harry himself. Second voldemort needs harrys blood so harrys wont kill him everytime he touches harry. next I believe it took some time to gather the necessary ingredients for voldemorts rebirth. And i figure that the bad guys were trying to make harrrys death look like an accident in the maze as voldemort likes to work from the shadows.

what i dont get is why they had to cancel quiditch

I know, right? They seriuosly couldn't squeeze 3 quiditch matches into 9 months of school along with the 3 GoF events? I mean, first of all, they barely play quiditch anyway. You'd think they'd play other schools occasionally too but they dont. That was just stupid...and completely unfair to all the quiditch players that weren't part of the GoF competition. Some of them could have had their future quiditch careers seriously jeopardized by that missed season. I lay the blame on the doorstep of the Department of Magical Novel Writing Editorial Staff and Page Number Limits personally.

GonzoTheGreat
01-03-2011, 03:53 PM
what i dont get is why they had to cancel quiditchI was gonna explain this, but Davian has already done that, so I don't need to bother. I am willing to take credit for coming up with the explanation, though.

Uno
01-03-2011, 08:50 PM
All evil overlords must resort of unnecessarily elaborate and complicated schemes. Well-known fact.

Davian93
01-03-2011, 08:51 PM
All evil overlords must resort of unnecessarily elaborate and complicated schemes. Well-known fact.

I thought the sharks with lasers attached to their heads was a bit over the top.

yks 6nnetu hing
01-04-2011, 04:58 AM
Speaking of Quidditch, the thing I found odd was that Oliver Wood was captain for 3 years, which means he became team captain in year 4. A bit early, maybe but ok. Now the really odd bit is Angelina, Alicia and Katie who are Chasers for at least 5 years each, I think Katie was 6 years even! that means they were 3rd and 2nd-years when they got in the team. Doesn't make sense, supposedly older kids would have more skill? I thought Harry was supposed to be the exceptionally talented one so it would have made sense to have a bit more rotation in the team in the earlier books at least. And then there's Lee Jordan who comments on every single Hogwarts match while still (???) a student.

Weird.

Davian93
01-04-2011, 09:33 AM
Rowling didnt like to create a bunch of tertiary characters is my guess...as that whole team thing bothered me a bit too.

I mean for the only wizarding school in all of Britain, we get to meet maybe 40-50 students by name total?

yks 6nnetu hing
02-01-2011, 09:14 AM
my re-read is nearly done.... and I came across something that was truly freaky: in the Deathly Hallows, when Harry and Hermione go to Godric's Hollow and they're in the graveyard looking at Harry's parents grave, the date of death is 31st October 1981. Harry was 1 year old when they died, which means that Harry was born in 1980 :eek:

Harry Potter will turn 31 this year


how's that for feeling old?

Anaiya Sedai
02-01-2011, 02:23 PM
lol yks!

sare, you just outed yourself as a bigger nerd than I realised you were :D :D ;)

dav, I think the Weasleys are supposed to be a bit of a british working class family, poor but happy-ish, like Ish said.. although, why they don't just claim all the benefits available in the UK and get the government to sponsor them a shiny new 5 bedroom house, I don't know... :rolleyes:

Sarevok
02-01-2011, 04:12 PM
lol yks!

sare, you just outed yourself as a bigger nerd than I realised you were :D :D ;)


Hmm. A few points here:
1. Yes, I'm a big nerd.
2. That was 2 months ago.
3. I had just reread the book at that point, I wouldn't have been able to tell you right now. Star Trek stuff, on the other hand... :D

Nazbaque
02-06-2011, 11:23 AM
Well now I'm going to do a bit of nerding.

1) The weirdest point about Quidditch is Charlie Weasley. "We haven't won the Quidditch Cup since Charlie Weasley left." That as far as I can tell was a year or two before Harry started school yet they make a big deal out of it. Now it isn't of course said anywhere in the books how much older Charlie and Bill are and it is of course possible that Molly and Arthur took a bit of a break between Charlie and Percy, but this point only stretches so far before Bill ends up ten years older than Fleur which makes that marriage a bit creepy as Fleur is barely twenty at that point.

2) The Prisoner of Azkaban time paradox. Okay so Harry saves his younger self. The loop itself is sound, but there is a problem: how the hell did it get started? I'm way too tired to try and explain this now so if you don't get it I'll explain it tomorrow.

3) The point of the Triwizard portkey Cup is that if something else was used Dumbledore would have been suspicious on the instant. The important point was to get Harry in the maze where he would be unobserved and what is the one thing he will touch? The Triwizard Cup.

4) Hermione's time turner. During the third year Hermione is doing three classes at once with the aid of her time turner. At the end she drops two subjects Divination and Muggle Studies and can have a normal time table again. Now how the hell does that work? She goes from 13 subjects to 11 and her lesson time is divided by three? And since Harry and Ron didn't have any trouble fitting Divination in their time tables the end result is that Muggle Studies has twice the lesson time of all the other subjects put together.

5) Why the hell didn't Voldemort hide his Horcruxes at the bottom of the Ocean?

I could probably come up with more, but my brain is going to sleep.

GonzoTheGreat
02-06-2011, 12:14 PM
5) Why the hell didn't Voldemort hide his Horcruxes at the bottom of the Ocean?If he'd done that, an American submarine would have bumped into them, destroying the lot.
He Who Must Not Be Named wasn't an idiot, you know.

nameless
02-06-2011, 02:40 PM
He had some sort of emotional attachment to his trophies and wanted them to remain either accessible or hidden in emotionally significant places. After all, if he were being 100% rational about it he wouldn't have bothered finding famous artifacts to use in the first place.

Davian93
02-06-2011, 03:20 PM
1) The weirdest point about Quidditch is Charlie Weasley. "We haven't won the Quidditch Cup since Charlie Weasley left." That as far as I can tell was a year or two before Harry started school yet they make a big deal out of it. Now it isn't of course said anywhere in the books how much older Charlie and Bill are and it is of course possible that Molly and Arthur took a bit of a break between Charlie and Percy, but this point only stretches so far before Bill ends up ten years older than Fleur which makes that marriage a bit creepy as Fleur is barely twenty at that point.

Well, there's only 4 Houses that compete for one and we get the impression that Hufflepuff is the "special" house for the "extra special" Hogwarts students that ride the short broom to class. Basically, the impression I got is that the Quidditch cup is basically passed between Slytherin and Griffindor much like the chariot races in Ancient Byzantium were basically 2 big teams with 2 also rans. Also, I think there very well could be a decent age gap between Charlie and Percy (maybe 4-5 years) so its not much of a surprise that having not won in 3+ years is a BIG deal for private school academy students who have a very small universe in which to live. Also, I dont really see any major issue with a 10 year age gap between Charlie and Fleur if that were the case. As long as both are legally adults, its a non-issue. Also, was there a major problem with the age gap between Lupin and Tonks (far greater than 10 years IIRC).

Uno
02-06-2011, 06:31 PM
He had some sort of emotional attachment to his trophies and wanted them to remain either accessible or hidden in emotionally significant places. After all, if he were being 100% rational about it he wouldn't have bothered finding famous artifacts to use in the first place.

It's the evil overlord compulsion again. Just like they must resort to unnecessarily complicated schemes, evil overlords always make it hard but possible for the hero to bring them down by hiding the artifacts that will be their undoing behind traps that are sadistic and clever yet definitely beatable. This is because your basic evil overlord deep down knows--on some instinctual level-- that the point of his existence is to bring about the emotional growth of the hero by making him overcome adversity. This is also why these chaps always insist on killing the hero personally, rather than giving the minions a kill-on-sight order.

The other possibility is that the writers of the genre aren't in the main overly original.

Sarevok
02-06-2011, 06:48 PM
4) Hermione's time turner. During the third year Hermione is doing three classes at once with the aid of her time turner. At the end she drops two subjects Divination and Muggle Studies and can have a normal time table again. Now how the hell does that work? She goes from 13 subjects to 11 and her lesson time is divided by three? And since Harry and Ron didn't have any trouble fitting Divination in their time tables the end result is that Muggle Studies has twice the lesson time of all the other subjects put together.


This isn't as strange as it may seem.
Note that it doesn't say in the books that she does 3 entire weeks worth of classes in a week, just that she does 3 classes at once, sometime during the week.
I've had 2 people in my high school class who had 2 classes at the same time, according to their schedule, because they had chosen an unusual combination of subjects. Because it is impossible to be in 2 classes at once without a time-turner, they had permission to skip one of the two. If they'd had chosen one less subject, the guy that schedules the classes would probably have been able to fit the in as usual.

Nazbaque
02-06-2011, 07:31 PM
Also, I dont really see any major issue with a 10 year age gap between Charlie and Fleur if that were the case. As long as both are legally adults, its a non-issue. Also, was there a major problem with the age gap between Lupin and Tonks (far greater than 10 years IIRC).
You mean Bill and Fleur. And It's not the age difference as such it's the fact that Fleur is barely 20. It's not about how many years the difference is, it's about how many years it is in relation to how long they have lived up to that point. If Bill is 30 and Fleur 20 it is creepy. When they are 35 and 25 it isn't that creepy. But at the start of their relationship their ages would be 18 and 28 which is quite a bit creepy. And this is the important bit: Why doesn't Molly jump on this God given excuse to stop the wedding? In HBP Molly is looking for excuses to stop the whole thing. If there was a great age difference between Fleur and Bill, Molly would leap on it. So Bill can't be more than 25 at the time of the wedding making Charlie no more than 24 and we know Percy is 21 and their age difference no more than 3 years.

Davian93
02-06-2011, 07:36 PM
You mean Bill and Fleur. And It's not the age difference as such it's the fact that Fleur is barely 20. It's not about how many years the difference is, it's about how many years it is in relation to how long they have lived up to that point. If Bill is 30 and Fleur 20 it is creepy. When they are 35 and 25 it isn't that creepy. But at the start of their relationship their ages would be 18 and 28 which is quite a bit creepy. And this is the important bit: Why doesn't Molly jump on this God given excuse to stop the wedding? In HBP Molly is looking for excuses to stop the whole thing. If there was a great age difference between Fleur and Bill, Molly would leap on it. So Bill can't be more than 25 at the time of the wedding making Charlie no more than 24 and we know Percy is 21 and their age difference no more than 3 years.

Yeah..Bill. I accidentally wrote Charlie for some reason.


If Bill is 30 and Fleur 20 it is creepy.

I honestly dont see that as all that creepy...not in a world where people are fully adults at 17 and act as such.

Nazbaque
02-06-2011, 07:52 PM
I honestly dont see that as all that creepy...not in a world where people are fully adults at 17 and act as such.
Well maybe, but you see my point about Molly making a huge fuss about it?

Davian93
02-06-2011, 08:04 PM
Well maybe, but you see my point about Molly making a huge fuss about it?

Well yeah, I do. I don't get any of the Molly hate towards Fleur. Clearly Molly is a xenophobe who hates the French.

Nazbaque
02-06-2011, 08:40 PM
I think it's the way Fleur behaves combined with the this-young-hussy-is-stealing-my-son syndrome

Davian93
02-06-2011, 09:08 PM
I think it's the way Fleur behaves combined with the this-young-hussy-is-stealing-my-son syndrome

Is Fleur purebred? Perhaps Molly is a closet Voldemort sympathizer that doesn't want her pure Wizarding blood tainted by a half-breed.

nameless
02-08-2011, 09:15 PM
I honestly dont see that as all that creepy...not in a world where people are fully adults at 17 and act as such.

They aren't and they don't. They just think they are. Brain development continues into your mid 20s and the last piece to finish developing is the one responsible for impulse control, long-term planning, delayed gratification, and all the other "adult" behaviors.

Davian93
02-09-2011, 07:53 AM
They aren't and they don't. They just think they are. Brain development continues into your mid 20s and the last piece to finish developing is the one responsible for impulse control, long-term planning, delayed gratification, and all the other "adult" behaviors.

Maybe for muggles...clearly what Harry and Ginny have is real. They've been happily married for 15+ years. Same with Ron and Hermione. Clearly, the wizarding mind is far more mature and has no problems staying with one's HS sweetheart in a healthy adult relationship.

GonzoTheGreat
02-09-2011, 08:21 AM
Or maybe just don't worry about adultery all that much. Was Mr. Weasley really working late so often?

Davian93
02-09-2011, 08:46 AM
Or maybe just don't worry about adultery all that much. Was Mr. Weasley really working late so often?

And why did he never have any money?!? I think he had a secret double life and was supporting 2 separate families.