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Bladesoar
11-29-2010, 01:14 PM
I don't know about you, but when I read the chapter showing the future of the Aiel, I immediately saw that this wasn't the past but rather the future. And already I started questioning things. If the Dark One breaks free and gains access to his full power, it is believed he can remake the pattern in his image and thus these futures will not happen. However, we all know that the Dark One isn't going to win the war. Honestly, I'm not worried about the Last Battle it seems... secondary now. For me, the matter with the future of the Aiel and the Seanchan dominion/threat seems to be a much more urgent and real threat than the Shadow. When I read that chapter, I completely stopped caring about the Last Battle and my biggest worry is on the Aiel future. I really want to see this resolved and how the Aiel will avoid it, because unlike the Last Battle, it's not as obvious as to who what will happen here. Especially since as of now, the Aiel will be destroyed.

Monkey
11-29-2010, 06:45 PM
Yes it does seem like that to me as well. I'm really interested in the path they take. After the LB they, as a nation will be at a fork in the road. Avi has seen one path thru her bloodline and it doesn't look good for the Aiel. Maybe they need to send all the WO and Clan Chiefs back to Rhu.. There maybe a bloodline that can lead them down the other path. It doesn't look like the Dragons bloodline does.

Bladesoar
11-29-2010, 08:35 PM
haha yeah I'm not a big fan of Tuon. At least not until she stops thinking she's a freaking goddess and above everyone else. And I'm not a big fan of the Seanchan, so I really hope there's a huge war that drives them out of the continent.

FelixPax
11-30-2010, 12:49 AM
Honestly, I'm not worried about the Last Battle it seems... secondary now. For me, the matter with the future of the Aiel and the Seanchan dominion/threat seems to be a much more urgent and real threat than the Shadow.

As long as Mat Cauthon and Tuon survive that problem will be a bloody bump in the road. Why?


Fortuona gave her word to Mat Cauthon in the form of a Treaty.


Tuon's Promise to Mat Cauthon, agreed to in the form of a Treaty, with two witnesses present--Selucia & Setelle Anan.

“I cannot say what I will do after returning to Ebou Dar, Toy. I have not decided. I may have you made da’covale. You are not pretty enough for a cupbearer, but it might please me to have you for one. Still, you have represented certain promises to me, so it pleases me now to promise, as well. So long as you keep your promises, I will neither escape nor betray you in any way, nor will I cause dissension among your followers. I believe that covers everything necessary.” This time, Mistress Anan gaped at her, and Selucia made a sound in her throat, but Tuon appeared not to notice either woman. She just looked at him expectantly, waiting on a response.

Crossroads of Twilight, Chapter 3 ‘A Fan of Colors’ – Mat Cauthon point of view; with Setalle Anan, Selucia in the wagon


Secondly, individuals who know of this Treaty between Mat Cauthon & Tuon have arrived in Tar Valon:


Vanin & his group within the Band of Red Hand, Egeanin, Bayle Domon, Juilin, Amathera, Teslyn, Joline & two Warders, Edesina, Bethamin and Seta. Recall it was Vanin who told Talmanes specific who Tuon was, and what Mat's promises to her were (KoD). All these individuals know for a fact that Tuon married Mat Cauthon, too.


Fortuona will be BREAKING the Treaty with her now husband, if she or her Empire leashes with an a'dam any of Matrim Cauthon's "followers".


How is Bethamin & Seta to follow the Prince of Ravens orders for a "new purpose", by learning from Aes Sedai in Tar Valon how to channel saidar if Tuon chains every martha'damane? How can Teslyn and the Amyrlin Seat deliver the Horn of Valere to Mat Cauthon after he requested it, if Tuon causes "dissension among his followers"?

Bethamin & Seta also know for a fact that the Prince of Ravens has specifically allowed three Aes Sedai their freedom. (TofM, Ch.17 "Partings, and a Meeting" - Mat pov)


As with any Treaty, Matrim Cauthon followers have one limitation under the agreement: "I promise no one’s going to hurt you." (CoT, Ch. 3 ‘A Fan of Colors’ – Mat Cauthon pov; with Setalle Anan, Selucia in the wagon)


Basically if the Amyrlin Seat and everyone else wants almost absolute protection from the Seanchan Empire, she and all channelers shall need to become a "follower" of bloody Mat Cauthon. :D ;)


If Fortuona wants to keep her marriage vows, she has to respect Mat Cauthon wishes regarding Aes Sedai who claim to be his "followers". Egeanin/Leilwin has claimed to Mat Cauthon that Tuon has never broken her promises. As much as she believes Aes Sedai are a danger, she will in the near future have to decide which is a higher priority: her word in the form of a Treaty or leashing Aes Sedai?


This conflict between Tuon and the Aes Sedai, will be decided by this very promise Mat Cauthon. Yes, a sad blood battle has been foreshadow previous to TofM book--however, Mat Cauthon can talk the two sides down.

Tuon’s big dark eyes crackled, heat lightning in a night sky, but she said, “It seems I will see what your promises are worth, Toy.”

Crossroads of Twilight, Chapter 3 ‘A Fan of Colors’ – Mat Cauthon point of view; with Setalle Anan, Selucia in the wagon

She had dreamed of the Seanchan, too, of women in dresses with lightning bolts woven on their breasts, collaring a long line of women who wore Great Serpent rings, forcing them to call lightning against the White Tower.

The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 25 "Questions" - Egwene point of view; a Dream interpreted

Or a dream of a storm, great dark clouds rolling without wind or rain while forked lightning bolts, every one identical, rent the earth. She had the dreams, but as a Dreamer she was a failure so far.

The Fire of Heaven, Chapter 15 "What Can Be Learned in Dreams" - Egwene point of view; a Dream interpreted


My belief is Tuon will be forced to back down in Tar Valon, even if she wins a battle there tactically. Tuon already lost, if Egwene can bend her darn neck to become a "follower" of Mat Cauthon. Barring this Tuon in fact lost strategically this battle exactly when Mat Cauthon ordered two Sul'dam to learn how to channel saidar with Aes Sedai. After all Tuon did agree to this:

So long as you keep your promises, I will neither escape nor betray you in any way, nor will I cause dissension among your followers. I believe that covers everything necessary.”



In an irony as a man who fear the Power, Mat Cauthon may have to comfort his wife's thoughts and fears. By becoming bonded as a Warder, or perhaps by undergoing some type of Aiel wedding ceremony to create a Bonding (e.g. similar to Elayne & Aviendha's first-sister relationship). By doing so, Mat can display to Fortuona he means no harm. :)


When I read that chapter, I completely stopped caring about the Last Battle and my biggest worry is on the Aiel future. I really want to see this resolved and how the Aiel will avoid it, because unlike the Last Battle, it's not as obvious as to who what will happen here. Especially since as of now, the Aiel will be destroyed.

The Aiel will not all be destroyed. :rolleyes:
Remember the "Remnant of a Remnant"?


When the Aiel finally decided to accept Matrim Cauthon as "He Who Comes With the Dawn", everything will work itself out. Mat and Rand al'Thor are both "He Who Comes With the Dawn". Rand is the destroyer aspect, and Mat Cauthon is the savior aspect. Each entered Rhuidean and exited Rhuidean at the very same time (TDR).

The Aelfinn even suggested that the People of Rhuidean, the Jenn Aiel are Mat Cauthon's People (TSR).


All the Aiel Clan Chiefs in Illan already once promised to Rand al'Thor, that they will follow Mat Cauthon orders. Whereas the Aiel Clans Chiefs in Cairhien currently, were already more apt to follow a belief system similar to the 'Way of the Leaf'; their Clans were on the receiving end of the Bleakness more than those present at the Golden Bowl when Rand spoke of their ancient history.



Personally I'm far more curious about the Sea Folk Clans relationship with Matrim Cauthon in the near future, than I am of the Aiel Clans relationship with him.


It was Mat Cauthon who freed the Sea Folk Windfinders in the Great Escape from Ebou Dar.
Mat Cauthon saved three Clan level Windfinders from the Seanchan's a'dam, by creating a Bargain with Renaile to protect Elayne, Nynaeve and to depart Ebou Dar for Caemlyn.
Is Mat Cauthon, like Rand al'Thor the Sea Folk Clans Coramoor?
Is the Coramoor two individuals? Not One?

bonesoldier
11-30-2010, 12:49 AM
I thought that channelers could live very long times, proved by the kin. I was surprised that in the second to last viewing that Elayne was not queen and other important characters like the old wise ones who could channel weren't present in that last viewing, unless they all die in the last battle. Also the whole thing was a spoiler. Ruined the end.

Jonai
11-30-2010, 02:44 AM
It's because all the old characters joined Moiraine and Rand's circus troupe. Touring the world as Merrilin's Marauders. Much much better than ruling stuffy old countries, I'd say.

TankSpill
11-30-2010, 11:48 AM
Well Felix,
At least the first 2/3 of your post made a bit of sense. I can almost even see the line and chain of events that would happen for Egwene and the White Tower to have to bend knee to Mat for the agreement with Tuon to work out properly.

As for the Aiel, I'm beginning more and more to be convinced that Terez is right on this one - the one and only way for the Aiel to survive and avoid that future is for them to return to the Way of the Leaf. Obviously, many would not do this, so the few who did would be the remnant. Thus, since they would then be able to find honor in Peace (instead of battle, as they do now), they would be able to accept the Dragon's terms, and not have Avi's children royally screw things up a few years down the road.

That future viewing still wreaks, to me, of manipulation and tampering (possibly by Nakomi) somehow, if by no other means than it seems like all the major characters are dead by then, which just doesn't make sense.

Grig
11-30-2010, 02:01 PM
Would be terrible for Felix's "theory" to come true. Would feel like Brandon ripping off Goodkind with everyone swearing fealty to Mary Sue Rahl to be safe from the dreamwalker guy (although I guess then the whole ripping off ideas without credit thing could go full circle).

FelixPax
11-30-2010, 04:56 PM
Well Felix,
At least the first 2/3 of your post made a bit of sense. I can almost even see the line and chain of events that would happen for Egwene and the White Tower to have to bend knee to Mat for the agreement with Tuon to work out properly.

As for the Aiel, I'm beginning more and more to be convinced that Terez is right on this one - the one and only way for the Aiel to survive and avoid that future is for them to return to the Way of the Leaf. Obviously, many would not do this, so the few who did would be the remnant. Thus, since they would then be able to find honor in Peace (instead of battle, as they do now), they would be able to accept the Dragon's terms, and not have Avi's children royally screw things up a few years down the road.

Mat Cauthon's People according the Aelfinn are the Jenn Aiel, whom followed the ways of the Da'Shain Aiel.

The Tuatha'an version of the Way of the Leaf was an adaption of Da'Shain Aiel beliefs. Just as the Water Way was the Amayar version and adaption of the Da'Shain Aiel belief system.

Those Aiel who because of the Bleakness broke Clan & Sept to join the Tuatha'an could all very well be the remnant of a remnant. That the group whom I believe Nakomi is a part of, termed the "Bleakness" by the Wise Ones who follow Rand al'Thor as "He Who Come With the Dawn".

When Rand al'Thor dies, who is to be acknowledged also as "He Who Come With the Dawn"? Mat Cauthon, who wants & desires "peace" not war. It is Mat Cauthon will approve of the Aiel turning to peace. However Mat Cauthon is not a Pacifist. Mat Cauthon is not a Tuatha'an. He approves individuals holds arms, as preparation, to protect what is dearly to an individual his family lives & well being.
Valan Luca is ironically enough is a role model, for what is to come: a man content living as best as he can following the Way of the Leaf, yet who strives to survive & to protect his People.

The Ancient Aes Sedai, wanted the Da'Shain Aiel to live, not to give up and die.

Terez and I, are not I suspect so far apart on the issue of the remnant of a remnant among the Aiel Clans. We both have claimed at various points, that Mat & Tuon/Fortuona are each an important key to save them.

Mat Cauthon's People is every single descendant group from the Da'shain Aiel:


Sea Folk Clans & Lines
Aiel Clans & Septs
Amayar
Tuatha'an



The only group above Mat Cauthon has not interacted with yet, is the remnant of a remnant of Amayar who survive on the island held in possession by his wife Fortuona under the Seanchan Empire's Flag.



That future viewing still wreaks, to me, of manipulation and tampering (possibly by Nakomi) somehow, if by no other means than it seems like all the major characters are dead by then, which just doesn't make sense.

The Shadow wants many individuals dead or kidnapped ultimately including:


Empress Fortuona/Tuon
Mat Cauthon
Elayne Sedai
Perrin


Its not surprising to read that Aviendha's vision of the future for her People is so horrible (TofM book). Recall that none of the four Aiel Dreamwalkers foresaw (TSR book):


Egwene al'Vere
Matrim Cauthon


Yes, their totally missed seeing two individuals who are to be intertwined with the Aiel Clans in the future. Two absolutely important individuals completely missed.

Dreamers can have blindspots, too. :)

FelixPax
11-30-2010, 05:05 PM
Would be terrible for Felix's "theory" to come true. Would feel like Brandon ripping off Goodkind with everyone swearing fealty to Mary Sue Rahl to be safe from the dreamwalker guy (although I guess then the whole ripping off ideas without credit thing could go full circle).


Fortuona will not swear to Mat Cauthon...
Fortuona is Mat Cauthon's peer...
Fortuona is married to Mat Cauthon.


The relationship between Fortuona and Mat Cauthon will allow the Westlands to survive within their own "spheres", after the Last Battle. Slowly over time those "spheres" barriers will lessen between the nations & states. As there trade relationships develop further, and an interchange of channelers between realms. A question of "slavery" among non-channelers will remain a big issue I suspect.

Mat Cauthon equal is his new wife. ;)

The Mardy Asha'man
11-30-2010, 05:48 PM
Mat Cauthon equal is his new wife.
I dont think so.


Fortuona will be BREAKING the Treaty with her now husband, if she or her Empire leashes with an a'dam any of Matrim Cauthon's "followers".

I really like this; it appeals to my sense of irony that she was trying to ge one over him, and in the end he get one over her.


Aiel - Mats people? LOL; nuff said.

At least the first 2/3 of your post made a bit of sense.
This sums it up for me. Some really good ideas then spoiled with out there hypotheses.

Grig
11-30-2010, 05:56 PM
Oh, one other thing:

Fortuona will be BREAKING the Treaty with her now husband, if she or her Empire leashes with an a'dam any of Matrim Cauthon's "followers".

Tuon leashed both Joline and Teslyn in Knife of Dreams. If the treaty works as believed, it's already broken. Oddly enough, neither party noticed. Not even Ms. Never-breaks-an-oath.

I'm mostly saying this for the benefit of the peanut gallery, with Leigh's re-read just hitting the part of CoT with the oaths it seems like this theory is popping up all over the place...

FelixPax
12-01-2010, 02:19 AM
Aiel - Mats people? LOL; nuff said.

Your a person of few words...

His first question—and the other two, for that matter—he had worked out before going down to the Great Hold. “Should I go home to help my people?” he asked finally.

Three sets of slitted eyes lifted from him—reluctantly, it seemed—and studied the air above his head. Finally the woman on the left said, “You must go to Rhuidean.”

The Shadow Rising, Chapter 15 "Into the Doorway" - Mat Cauthon point of view; asking the Aelfinn his 1st question and their response.

You missed it, nuff said. :p ;)

yasiru89
12-01-2010, 02:50 AM
There's a way to make the Aiel follow the Way of the Leaf- just make a ter'angreal where they have to fight someone but can never win (basically a video game ter'angreal, where you can't win), and you always get touched while armed- ergo you're gai'shain. Now make up a prophecy that all Aiel must go through this or no one will survive.
And we're done! Video game ter'angreal makes all Aiel gai'shain!

Grig- Tuon pulled an Aes Sedai act, twisting what she said since it appeared obvious from the Aes Sedai mannerisms that they weren't Mat's followers.

Loving the having to bend knee to Mat in order to survive theory. And the 'Mat is He Who Limped Along Clutching His Neck With The Dawn theory. The first might be worth it just to see Egwene's head spontaneously explode! XD
But there's another Aes Sedai-ish snag (in keeping a serious face with the thing), Fortuona might claim Tuon made promises- not her as Empress.

Bladesoar
12-01-2010, 10:07 AM
I've seen some pretty awesome posts on here. Felix, you have a great little theory going. I'll respond more in-depth when I get back home later.

GonzoTheGreat
12-01-2010, 10:22 AM
You missed it, nuff said. :p ;)Of course, that quote could also be interpreted as "no, in order to help your people you should not go home, but you should go to Rhuidean instead".
Less fun to use that interpretation, I'll admit.

Green Man 22
12-01-2010, 11:40 AM
While your theory about Mat is interesting, I think you may be overreading the whole "treaty" situation.

It is true that Tuon promised the following:

"... so long as you keep your promises, I will neither escape nor betray you in any way, nor will I cause dissension among your followers. I believe that covers everything necessary."

However, you completely ignored her intro to that promise, which limits the extent of what she promised.

"I cannot say what I will do after returning to Ebou Dar, Toy. I have not decided I may have you made da'covale. You are not pretty enough for a cupbearer, but it might please me to have you for one. Still, you have represented certain promises to me, ..."

From her statement, Tuon is promising these things to Mat until she returns to Ebou Dar. He had previously told her that he would return her to her people when he could (part of his promise). Once he allowed her to return to Ebou Dar, her promises to him are no longer in effect.

Hugh the Hand
12-01-2010, 12:17 PM
Felix,

I will give you credit on a site full of amazingly insane theories, yours, all of yours, take the cake.

So lets get this straight:

Your believe:

Lanfear is not Cyn, despite everything that has been shown to the contrary, such as Cyn's internal comment that I was stronger "before the "finn had me." And the fact that Mordian went in and bought her freedom?

Next you think Oliver is a copy of Mat's soul, despite no actual facts to back it up other then people saying "young Mat." oh and the fact that Oliver is 8-10 years old.......

You also thing Oliver is Ta'veren as well as Luca, again with no facts....

Mat as He who comes with the Dawn? Seriously?

Now you think Mat's people are the Jenn Aiel? and these include the Aiel, the Tinkers, the Sea Folk, the Amyer and others? I am not sure what makes you think all of these are the same people. The Amayer and the Aiel maybe since they follow the same believe system, but that still seems like a stretch.

Now on to these being Mat's "people" this time you have a theory, and some (well one) "facts" to back it up, which is great, a step in the right direction. However, I do not believe you are reading the Finn's answer correctly, they did not say "go to your people at Rhudian, they said go to Rhuidian. Gonzo is right, the most logical way to read their answer to his question is "no, you must go to Rhudian."

We have no indication that Mat has any Aiel blood. And we have no indication that his people were the Jenn or their ancestors. We KNOW that he needed to go to Rhudian so that he can get his gifts from the doorway and then give up half the light of the world to save Mory.

Now all that aside, and I take exception to most if not all the theories you have posted, your theory about Mat's followers is interesting.

I agree any followers of Mat might be except from Tuon's conquest of Randland. Her promise was clear. But I am not sure if she would see new followers, those not of the date of the promise as included. Next, I do not see the AS the Aiel or any group bending knee to Mat even for appearance sake. Further, the promise would only last as long as Tuon was alive or around to enforce it, if she goes home to resettle her homeland, someone might take it upon themselves to conquer Randland. Also, what happens when Mat dies? I can see the promise ending then too.

Finally, as pointed out above this promise might have ended when she returned to Ebou Dar.

Bladesoar
12-01-2010, 02:54 PM
Haha yeah Felix, you always have some very interesting theories, as I've said to you before. While an interesting thought process, and as awesome and funny as it would be, I doubt that people will bend knee to Mat like that. As was pointed out, we have no indication he has Aiel blood, and those different groups of people I see them as different entities. Most people have addressed their counters regarding your theories, many of which are the same as I would have said, so I have little to say on the matter now.

In terms of the Seanchan invasion, my main problem is that I really do not like the Seanchan. It bothers me that even though the people of Randland are the real people of Artur Hawking's Empire, and not Artur's SON's, then they should have "seniority" over the Seanchan. And yet someone, because the Seanchan have a connection to his son, not the real original emperor, they think they are entitled to conquer his lands of old. In general, sometimes I like Tuon, and sometimes I don't. I don't like her overly cocky attitude that the Empress is a godlike being above the Dragon Reborn who will save the freaking world. I don't like that mentality. I do appreciate that she is honest and honorable. However, I don't like the cut-throat nature among the Seanchan nobility and while honorable they have many flaws (obviously). So I believe they should tone it down quite a few notches and/or leave Randland and go back to Seanchan where they belong. They're not the owners of the world. Although from Avi's viewings, they will be. And that bothers and worries me WAY more than the Last Battle.

Grig
12-01-2010, 04:25 PM
Grig- Tuon pulled an Aes Sedai act, twisting what she said since it appeared obvious from the Aes Sedai mannerisms that they weren't Mat's followers.

Um, and how will this differ if the "follower" label gets extended to every AS in the Tower? Their mannerisms will be much more likely to say that they're not really Mat's followers, especially since at the time of the Teslyn/Joline leashing they were actively following Mat's orders and Tuon flat out tells him she wants them to leave her alone, implying that she thinks it's within Mat's influence to make it happen.

Basically, the theory is rather silly and quite dead in the water unless one wants to stick their fingers in their ears and chant la-la-la.

GonzoTheGreat
12-01-2010, 04:33 PM
Basically, the theory is rather silly and quite dead in the water unless one wants to stick their fingers in their ears and chant la-la-la.Which, quite often, is the best approach to dealing with AS. So you do have a practical solution here, it would seem.

yasiru89
12-02-2010, 01:31 AM
Um, and how will this differ if the "follower" label gets extended to every AS in the Tower? Their mannerisms will be much more likely to say that they're not really Mat's followers, especially since at the time of the Teslyn/Joline leashing they were actively following Mat's orders and Tuon flat out tells him she wants them to leave her alone, implying that she thinks it's within Mat's influence to make it happen.

Basically, the theory is rather silly and quite dead in the water unless one wants to stick their fingers in their ears and chant la-la-la.
But that's the beauty of it- Tuon knows they're marath'damane and so are simply forced to comply with what Mat chooses for everyone as a group (though their nature compels them to try and interfere at each turn)- when she caught Teslyn and Joline, she was presenting Mat with an ultimatum, 'get them in line or I can't guarantee what'll happen should they keep annoying me.'
And so it would be the funniest thing ever for Aes Sedai to be pretending at deference to Mat in order for a treaty to hold.

Of course, if this purported theory does have some merit, I might just burn aMoL.

Juan
12-02-2010, 06:13 PM
Just letting you know: I'm Bladesoar. Except I changed my account name because I wasn't liking the name too much.. haha

Anyway, it seems like it would be pretty difficult for Tuon to completely change her way of thinking and let the marath'damane go free. And even more so, for the Seanchan people to accept her decision in letting them go free. After all, they've had it in their minds that channelers are Those Who Must Be Leashed. Still, it would be nice if Tuon and the Seanchan changed their way of thinking it; it would make me tolerate them a bit more.

Terrace
12-02-2010, 06:34 PM
The aiel future didn't scare me too much because.. well.. I saw it coming. I always thought of them like the Muslim armies that kicked ass all over europe, but didn't modernize fast enough. They have no place in the future age.

I'm a lot more worried about freedom in the empire. Its not a guarantee they'll change to democracy; I see them like china or russia today

Juan
12-05-2010, 06:13 PM
It would really bother me if the solution to the Aiel's survival is to return to the Way of the Leaf. That's really dumb in my opinion. That's not who they are, who they've become. They're the best warriors in the world and they're randomly going to become pacifists? No thanks. I really hope this isn't what's required for them to survive. And I worry about the Aiel future specifically because that means the Seanchan are in control of the world. And THAT's what really bothers me.

finn
12-06-2010, 12:31 AM
It would really bother me if the solution to the Aiel's survival is to return to the Way of the Leaf. That's really dumb in my opinion. That's not who they are, who they've become. They're the best warriors in the world and they're randomly going to become pacifists? No thanks. I really hope this isn't what's required for them to survive. And I worry about the Aiel future specifically because that means the Seanchan are in control of the world. And THAT's what really bothers me.

As Terrace said, they're not the kind who can modernize fast enough. Warfare itself is about to change and will soon introduce adaptations (to weapons purely for destruction) that they would be unwilling to make without completely giving up ji'e'toh.

Their warrior code with its aversion to swords and becoming gai'shain to retain honor retains The Way of the Leaf at its center. Returning to that after they've met their toh isn't random at all. The world will have to deal with the Seanchan in their own way. Elayne has taken the first steps with Mat's dragons and her proposed use of the Kin.

Juan
12-06-2010, 12:44 AM
@finn
Good call about the change in warfare. But in what ways is it changing? Dragons which are like cannons. Gateways=faster transportation, more channelers=more explosions, fires, destructions, you name it. Better crossbows (by Mat's Band). But it's not like the soldiers who CAN'T channel are using guns or such. And their Dragons aren't as effective as originally intended, although still an asset. So non-channeler soldiers will still be fighting as they always had for the most part. And so, the Aiel are not going "obselete" and not modernizing. That may happen many years down the road but so far they're ok. Also, their unwillingness to use swords is in no way a hindrance or detriment to their fighting abilities. If you know about Medieval warfare and back (before the introduction of guns and all that), the regular soldier's weapons were NOT swords. Swords were used by upper class as a sport and decorations. Only sometimes actually used in battle. Much more common were the use of axes, bows, spears, pikes, etc. And the Aiel use spears. So in no way is that going to hold them back. Also they are not part of the Way of the Leaf. They kill people. Just because I kill you with my hands or a spear and not a sword doesn't change the fact I killed you. Still a non-pacifist action, no matter how you do it. Therefore, you can't twist the Aiel into saying they sort of follow the Way of the Leaf. Because they don't. That time is long gone.

finn
12-06-2010, 01:14 AM
The Aiel use spears because they're sort of a dual use technology. You can use them to harm but also to hunt for food - Rand's Rhuidean trip showed the first use of a spear by an Aiel with that justification, that touching a sword was forbidden by "the Way".

OT but Perrin was somewhat inspired by the WotL himself from his time with the Tinkers, thus his adoption of the hammer which can both create and destroy.

Juan
12-06-2010, 01:29 AM
I'm not convinced. The Way of the Leaf's MAIN point was no violence under any circumstance. The no touching of a sword is because that's a weapon made specifically for fighting. But that's just a rule/guideline to fulfill that main objective of no violence. So in that context whether they use a sword or a pillow (which can be used to sleep with and is nice and comfy and therefore seemingly a good item) it doesn't matter. They've engaged in violence and hence a non-pacifist action, therefore violating that main objective which is the meaning of the way of the leaf. (pacifism). The Aiel are no longer even close to that.

finn
12-06-2010, 01:58 AM
It's how they see it that matters. By giving in to violence they failed their ancestors and the Aes Sedai instruction to keep to the Way of the Leaf. This is why they consider themselves as having incurred toh and why upon learning the truth many fell to the bleakness, threw away their spears and became gai'shain. It was a mistake but by ji'e'toh there isn't a mistake that one can't pay for. They will meet that obligation by following the caracarn and pay with blood and the near destruction of their people at the last battle.

Continuing with violence once that toh is met will reincur toh. According to Aviendha's Rhuidean vision, sticking to violence will also lead to further (or perhaps a full) destruction of their people.

padfoot89
12-06-2010, 01:59 AM
What happened to the Jenn Aiel ?
I seem to remember that there were some left when Rhudiean was founded. Did they die off ?

finn
12-06-2010, 02:11 AM
The Jenn didn't survive. They foresaw their own end.

Juan
12-06-2010, 02:13 AM
Ah, Finn, there we go. I don't agree that it's the way they see it that matters. I tend to be more objective than subjective in those matters. But you've made a very good point about the toh. The thing is, if they've incurred toh because of violence and they feel they must pay it, then alright that's one thing. The ones who learned and became gaishan have done so as you said. But, the ones who learned their origins and didn't, perhaps it's because they don't believe they have toh in that specific area. I'm not in their heads so I'm assuming that. This raises the point though. If I were to say finn, that your ancestors a thousand years back believed in ___. For kicks and giggles let's say they were pacifists and you were not. If I told you this and you somehow knew it to be true, does that mean you too should become a pacifist? I'd like to think it doesn't. That's why I believe the Aiel now are not followers of the Way of the Leaf and therefore shouldn't NEED to go back to it. If they want to, that's one thing, but they shouldn't NEED to for their survival.

@padfoot89
There is much debate about that. It was widely believed that the Jenn Aiel died off completely... until the red-veiled Aiel with sharp teeth came long. Then many (though not all, including myself) started wondering if they could be remnants of the Jenn Aiel turned Darkfriend or something. Like I said, I think they're fully extinct, but it's debatable that there could possibly be some left somewhere.

finn
12-06-2010, 02:50 AM
But, the ones who learned their origins and didn't, perhaps it's because they don't believe they have toh in that specific area. I'm not in their heads so I'm assuming that.No, I think some see that becoming gai'shain isn't enough to meet toh. They may be guided by prophecies in this and their obligation to the people as a whole may overrule the individual need for redemption- meeting the greater toh being the course to take.

If I were to say finn, that your ancestors a thousand years back believed in ___. For kicks and giggles let's say they were pacifists and you were not. If I told you this and you somehow knew it to be true, does that mean you too should become a pacifist? I'd like to think it doesn't. That's why I believe the Aiel now are not followers of the Way of the Leaf and therefore shouldn't NEED to go back to it. If they want to, that's one thing, but they shouldn't NEED to for their survival.

To be Aiel means to be Dedicated. It's not just a name, it's their identity, a reason to strive as hard as they do and how they are able to survive the Waste. Most Aiel believed that they had descended from great warriors. To learn that they broke away from what they used to be, showed less than total dedication was a blow to their identity. The Jenn Aiel, the true Dedicated died for their beliefs whereas they did not.

padfoot89
12-06-2010, 03:57 AM
So the Jenn (atleast the good ones) are no more.
Looks like the current set of Aiel have to adapt or they won't survive either.
The Jenn didn't change and died out and according Aviendha's visions, the current set will too if they don't change.

Ancalagon
12-14-2010, 05:03 AM
Perhaps when they said only a remnant of a remnant will remain, Aviendha's vision is what they meant. Perhaps one vision in the future will show a small hold somewhere in the middle of nowhere, surviving after all.

I hope that isnt the case, but thats mainly because I cant stand the Seanchan. I dont particularly mind if the Aiel lose a lot of their number, as long as the Seanchan dont end up dominating the entire world.

Ideally Rand's truce with Tuon will involve something other than him kneeling to her. Perhaps he or someone else will collar her to A) publicly humiliate her or B) show once and for all that sul'dam can channel too. If it were known that sul'dam are also marath'damane, then the entire justification for damane falls away, in that sul'dam are just as dangerous.

ZaderGru
12-14-2010, 06:49 AM
Just out of interest Felix, If Mat is Car'a'carn He who come with the Dawn, Where are the Dragons'
on his forearms.

FelixPax
12-14-2010, 06:53 AM
While your theory about Mat is interesting, I think you may be overreading the whole "treaty" situation.

...

From her statement, Tuon is promising these things to Mat until she returns to Ebou Dar. He had previously told her that he would return her to her people when he could (part of his promise). Once he allowed her to return to Ebou Dar, her promises to him are no longer in effect.

Problem for Tuon's perspective, is she made a deal with Mat Cauthon and sealed it by spitting into her hand and grasping Mat's already spit upon hand. Importantly, there was no timeline for expiration placed in the Promise & Treaty.

Tuon sealed this deal with Mat Cauthon, in front of two witnesses which so happens to be the same minimum amount necessarily to seal a marriage contract, among the Blood & Imperial Family.


“What ceremony? What are you talking about?”

“You named her your wife three times that night in Ebou Dar,” she said slowly. “You really don’t know? A woman says three times that a man is her husband, and he says three times she’s his wife, and they’re married. There are blessings involved, usually, but it’s saying it in front of witnesses that makes it a marriage. You really didn’t know?”

Mat laughed, and shrugged his shoulders, feeling the knife hanging behind his neck.
A good knife gave a man a feeling of comfort. But his laugh was hoarse. “But she didn’t say anything.” He had bloody well been stuffing a gag in her mouth at the time! “So whatever I said, it doesn’t mean anything.” But he knew what Egeanin was going to say. Sure as water was wet, he knew. He had been told who he was going to marry.

“With the Blood, it’s a little different. Sometimes a noble from one end of the Empire marries a noble from the other. An arranged marriage. The Imperial family never has any other kind. They may not want to wait until they can be together, so one acknowledges the marriage where she is, and the other where he is. As long as they both speak in front of witnesses, inside a year and a day, the marriage is legal. You truly didn’t know?”


Crossroads of Twlight, Chapter 28 “A Cluster of Rosebuds” -- Mat point of view; with Egeanin


If something as important as a Seanchan Marriage contract, can be sealed with as few as two witnesses. Its highly logically to assume that a Treaty can be sealed, with as few as two witnesses. In either case, the individuals or groups have to follow their word, their contract between each other. Or else some one has specifically broken their word.

Who witnessed Mat Cauthon & Tuon's Treaty being spoken and agreed to?

Setalle Anan and Selucia. Setalle is a former Aes Sedai, while Selucia is presently the Truthspeaker for the Seanchan Empress and the Shadow (bodyguard) for the Empress.


Recall what Tuon's own thoughts were about the position of Truthspeaker?

A Speaker of Truth could not be commanded or coerced or punished in any way. A Truthspeaker was required to tell the stark truth whether or not you wanted to hear it, and to make sure that you heard.

Winter's Heart, Chapter 14 "What a Veil Hides" -- Tuon point of view

And, she had to admit, because she wanted to resist her Soe’feia’s advice. Wanted not to listen to her at all. As Selucia said, she always had been headstrong. Refusing to listen to your Truthspeaker was abominable.

Winter's Heart, Chapter 14 "What a Veil Hides" -- Tuon point of view


Why does the Selucia's position of Truthspeaker matter in relation to the Promise and Treaty given to Mat Cauthon, by Tuon and seen by Setalle Anan?

Because one novel way out of this Promise & Treaty would be to order Selucia execution. However, Tuon cannot do this because Selucia is a Truthspeaker. Likewise, Tuon cannot order the execution of Setalle Anan to rid herself of the legality of this Treaty. Why? Because Setalle Anan is a "follower" of Mat Cauthon.
Tuon is struck in a Catch-22.

Remember Tuon once did think of the possibly of killing Selucia, but she didn't want to do that. But Selucia was not yet a Truthspeaker during this scene below:


Tuon kept few secrets from her, but some seemed advisable for the present. She would not put it past Selucia to return her to Ebou Dar forcibly, so she would not be breaking her word. A shadow's duties were many, and sometimes required paying the final sacrifice. She did not want to have to order Selucia's execution.


Knife of Dreams, Chapter 26 "As If the World Were Fog" -- Tuon point of view; next to Selucia and near Mat Cauthon, Talmanes et la.

Notice how Selucia is responsible for Tuon keeping to her word?
That very same role exists for Selucia, as Tuon's Truthspeaker as well.

Egeanin/Leilwin once claimed to Mat Cauthon, that Tuon will always keep her word. Tuon's own thoughts agree with this claim, she claims to never have broken her words ever:


She had given her word, playing the game as it had to be played, and she had never broken her word in her life.

Knife of Dreams, Chapter 26 “As If the World Were Fog” – Tuon point of view; next to Selucia, Mat, Talmanes, Vanin


Mat Cauthon part of the Treaty with Tuon, is curiously similar to a prior Promise given to Selucia when Tuon was kidnapped in Ebou Dar:



Selucia scurried into the room, and Mat groaned. Was everybody in the whole bloody Palace going to walk in? Domon tried to grab her, but she eluded him, darting about. The buxom golden-haired so’jhin was not so stately as usual, wringing her hands and looking around in a hunted fashion. “Forgive me for speaking,” she said in a fear-filled voice, “but what you do is foolish beyond madness.” With a groan, she darted to half crouch between the kneeling sul’dam with one hand on the shoulder of each, as though seeking their protection. Her blue eyes never ceased flitting about the room. “Whatever the omens, this can still be rectified if you will only consent to draw back.”

“Be easy, Selucia,” Mat said in a soothing. She was not looking at him, but he made calming gestures anyway. In none of his memories could he find a way to deal with a hysterical woman. Except to hide. “No one is going to be hurt. No one! I promise you. You can be easy, now.”

For some reason, consternation flashed across her face, but she settled to her knees and folded her hands in her lap. Suddenly, all her fear vanished, and she was as regal as ever she had been. “I will obey you, so long as you do not harm my mistress. If you do, I will kill you.”


Winter's Heart, Chapter 31 "What the Aelfinn Said" -- Mat Cauthon point of view; with Selucia, Tuon, Egeanin, Domon, Juilin, Amathera, Seta, Renna, Teslyn, Edesina in scene

Mat Cauthon did fulfill his promise given to Selucia, given in Ebou Dar. No one was hurt, who was present. Except later for Renna, but Tuon called Renna's killing Justice, because Renna betrayed Tuon by attacking Leilwin and fleeing.

Selucia knows that Mat Cauthon kept his promises to both herself and to Tuon.

Selucia knows that Mat Cauthon's "followers" including three Aes Sedai agreed to stop annoying Tuon, as well. "Annoying" Tuon under the Treaty (of Roses ;) ), is a form of "Hurting". Selucia knows that Tuon allowed these three Aes Sedai to be released into Mat Cauthon authority.


Selucia also specific heard Leilwin speak the secret of the a'dam. Selucia now has a very good reason to suspect that Tuon can be leashed by an a'dam, like a damane would be. This is one unspoken reason, why Selucia states later:

All of the marath'damane must be leashed."

She sat back down, letting the room fall still. It was rare that the Empress made such announcements personally. But this was a time for boldness.

"You should not allow word of this to spread," Selucia said to her, voice firm. She was now speaking in her role as Truthspeaker. Yes, another would have to be chosen to be Fortuona's voice. "You would be a fool to let the enemy know for certain we have this Traveling."

Towers of Midnight, Chapter "A Teaching Chamber" -- Fortuona point of view; with Selucia, Lunal Galgan, Elaida (damane), Melitene (sul'dam), Beslan, Furyk Karede

Selucia has to protect the Empress, as Truthspeaker... even in the off chance the a'dam might work upon Fortuona, based by Selucia's unknown judgment.


Fortuona cannot just ignore her Promises & Treaty to Mat Cauthon, as she does Suffra's petulance. If Fortuona does ignore her promises to Mat Cauthon, she will have all but have broken her marriage vows and her word for the first time ever.

Yes, Fortuona has already lost the future battle at the White Tower, by her own mouth.

FelixPax
12-23-2010, 01:58 PM
Just out of interest Felix, If Mat is Car'a'carn He who come with the Dawn, Where are the Dragons'
on his forearms.

A curious question indeed, ZaderGru. :)


Short answer: Mat Cauthon was marked in Rhuidean, in a similar manner as the Wise Ones are in fact marked---in one very memory. In Mat's case, Eelfinn gained memories.


Rhuarc cleared his throat. “When a man wishes to become a clan chief, he must go to Rhuidean, in the lands of the Jenn Aiel, the clan that is not.” He spoke slowly and frowned often at the red-fringed silk carpet under his soft boots, a man trying to explain what he did not want to explain at all. “Women who wish to become Wise Ones also make this journey, but their marking, if they are marked, is kept secret among themselves. The men who are chosen at Rhuidean, those who survive, return marked on the left arm. So.”

The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 56 "People of the Dragon" -- Mat Cauthon point of view; with Rhuarc, Moiraine, Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne





A Longer attempt at an explanation below, covering more issues & topics. It is a start, though still incomplete.


Mat Cauthon once flipped a coin in Rhuidean, while next to Rand al'Thor, to determine whether to enter the "columned rings" ter'angreal or not.


That was part of a saying he had picked up in the Borderlands. “Death is lighter than a feather, duty heavier than a mountain.” It sounded like pure foolishness to Mat, but Rand was getting up. Mat copied him reluctantly. “What do you think we’ll find in there?”

“I think I have to go on alone from here,” Rand said slowly.

“What do you mean?” Mat demanded. “I’ve come this far, haven’t I? I am not going to turn tail now.” Wouldn’t I just like to, though!

“It isn’t that, Mat. If you go in there, you come out a clan chief, or you die. Or come out mad. I don’t believe there’s any other choice. Unless maybe the Wise Ones go in there.”

Mat hesitated. To die and live again. That was what they had said. He had no intention of trying to be an Aiel clan chief, though; the Aiel would probably stick spears through him. “We’ll leave it to luck,” he said, pulling the Tar Valon mark from his pocket. “Getting to be my lucky coin. Flame, I go in with you; head, I stay out.” He flipped the gold coin quickly, before Rand could object.

Somehow he missed grabbing it; the mark careened off his fingertips, clinked to the pavement, bounced twice . . . And landed on edge.

He glared at Rand accusingly. “Do you do this sort of thing on purpose? Can’t you control it?”

“No.” The coin fell over, showing an ageless woman’s face surrounded by stars. “It looks like you stay out here, Mat.”

“Did you just . . . ?” He wished Rand would not channel around him. “Oh, burn me, if you want me to stay out here, I’ll stay.” Snatching the coin up, he stuffed it back into his pocket. “Listen, you go in, do whatever it is you have to, and get back out. I want to leave this place, and I am not going to stand here forever twiddling my thumbs waiting for you. And you needn’t think I’ll come in after you, either, so you had best be careful.”

“I wouldn’t think that of you, Mat,” Rand said.


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 24 "Rhuidean" -- Mat Cauthon point of view; next to Rand al'Thor in Rhuidean

Mat Cauthon believes that Rand al'Thor channeled to push the Coin on Edge, over, so to keep him out of the "columned rings" ter'angreal.

Who's to say Mat Cauthon will not re-enter Rhuidean? Then enter the "columned rings" himself too? And perhaps, prove one of Bair's predictions false--that no man can enter Rhuidean twice and survive?


Foreshadowing in Towers of Midnight book, likewise suggests that Mat Cauthon possibly will enter Rhuidean again.... Which itself is somewhat similar to Mat's own prior words spoken previously:

He started around the array, keeping well back, peering in an effort to spot Rand again. “You look out what you’re bloody doing,” he shouted. “You leave me alone in the Waste with Moiraine and the bloody Aiel, and I’ll strangle you, Dragon Reborn or no!”

The Shadow Rising, Chapter 24 "Rhuidean" - Mat Cauthon point of view




Even that Flipped Coin which stood on its own edge in Rhuidean, is not a unique event for Mat Cauthon. Why, it occurred at the 'Golden Bowl' too! Or Alcair Dal in the Old Tongue.

“What about me, Rand?” Mat said suddenly, rolling a gold coin across the fingers of one hand as though unaware of it. “You have any objections to my going with you?”

“Do you want to? I thought you’d stay with the peddlers.”

Mat frowned at the wagons below, looked to the Shaido lined before the mountain gap. “I don’t think it will be so easy to get out of here if you get yourself killed. Burn me if you don’t stick me in the rendering kettle one way or . . . Dovienya,” he muttered—Rand had heard him say that before; Lan said it meant “luck” in the Old Tongue—and flipped the gold coin into the air. When he tried to snatch it back, it bounced off his fingertips and fell to the ground. Somehow, improbably, the coin landed on edge, rolling downhill, bounding across cracks in the baked clay, glittering in the sunlight, all the way down to the wagons, where it finally fell over.

“Burn me, Rand,” he growled, “I wish you wouldn’t do that!”

Isendre picked up the coin and stood fingering it, peering up at the hilltop. The others stared, too; Kadere, and Keille, and Natael.

“You can come,” Rand said. “Rhuarc, isn’t it about time?”

The Shadow Rising, Chapter 57 "A Breaking in the Three-fold Land" -- Rand point of view; with many many people are in the scene including Keille who is really Mierin


Who do the Aiel Peoples later see being protected by the Maidens and Adelin?
Mat Cauthon. (See TSR, Ch.58)



Who's honor do the Maidens seek to protect?
The Car’a’carn.



Also notice how Mat does not want to become an Aiel Chief in his thoughts above? Its quite fitting, with a 'theme of leadership' in WoT series. Peter Ahlstrom in a past Tweet has once noted this very theme previously in WoT--he is Brandon Sanderson's assistant.



Did Mat's Luck keep him out of Rhuidean temporary? Not Rand's channeling?



Thus, the Pattern and Fate itself... wanted Mat Cauthon not to be yet seen as an Aiel Clan Chief.

Why? He has other more important things to do first... Band of Red Hand, finding dead Tuatha'an, going to the Rebel Aes Sedai Camp, Tylin & Beslan, the Kin, the Bargains with Sea Folk Windfinders, saving Teslyn/Edesina/Joline, joining up with Valan Luca, marrying Tuon... all events surrounding "the People". If Mat Cauthon was acknowledged as Car'a'carn too early by the Aiel Chiefs and Clans, the Pattern would not be saved ultimately. Besides the Aiel Clans are only one group, "of the People"... the Sea Folk Clans & Lines are part "of the People", too! (See various Glossary definitions, for evidence)

During the Age of Legends who did the Aes Sedai serve? A Dragon.

Each historical character below, was a prior existence for Mat Cauthon's soul--I claim:

Artur Hawkwing.
King Aemon of Manetheren. (who was wife of Eldrene, which was Tuon's soul).


Faile once noted-- "according to Saldaean history, every Queen of Manetheren was Aes Sedai and the King was her Warder" (Source: TDR,Ch35). Yes, that implies that Tuon/Fortuona will bond Mat Cauthon as a Warder in the near future. Perhaps thus fulfilling the lines found in later Seanchan versions of the Dragon Prophecies... of a Dragon kneeling to the Crystal Throne? Kneeling to become a Warder?


Ironically how does an Inn owned by one Agardo Saranche across from the Stone in Tear, show the Dragon symbol displayed visually?

The sign out front is painted with a rough approximation of the creatures on Rand's his forearms but the artist added long, sharp teeth and leathery, ribbed wings that almost look copied from a raken.

Source: eWoT website;
Knife of Dreams, Chapter 21

Even in Tear, the symbol of the Dragon is already beginning to get mixed up with the Seanchan Empire's own symbols of a raken.







Separately, Mat Cauthon was marked by his journal into the center of Rhuidean. Just not in a manner Amys, Bair, Melaine nor Seana expected nor noticed. Memories gained.

The Wise Ones had an expectation even before Mat Cauthon entered Rhuidean, that is was not to be the Chosen One--"He Who Comes With the Dawn". Yet the same the prophecy foretold, it could be more than one man.

Mat Cauthon literally next to Rand al'Thor entered and exited Rhuidean at the same time. Each fulfilled that particular line of prophecy together.

Both Rhuarc, Gaul and Urien each have shown evidence that "He Who Comes With the Dawn" is not a straight forward set of prophecies and foretells as the majority of Wise Ones have proclaimed and which Rand al'Thor has accepted.

Nor did the four Aiel Chiefs who in Cairhien easily come to accept Rand al'Thor as "He Who Comes With the Dawn"... who's very own Clans were touched by the Bleakness more than others who saw firsthand Rand's confession of the Aiel's past as Da'Shain Aiel.



A Beginning sorts for a Bleakness However not the Beginning.

“The Shaido were not the only ones who fled.” Han’s leathery face twisted sourly. “Some of my Tomanelle went as well. And Goshien, and Shaarad, and Chareen.” Jheran and Erim nodded almost as dourly as Han.

“Not with the Shaido,” tall Bael rumbled, “but they went. They will spread what happened here, what you revealed. That was ill done. I saw men throw away their spears and run!”

He will bind you together, and destroy you.

“No Taardad left,” Rhuarc put in, not pridefully but as a simple statement of fact. “We are ready to go where you lead.”

The Shadow Rising, Chapter "The Traps of Rhuidean" - Rand point of view

Nakomi's character is not of the Taardad Clan... however I claim she is the very first individual readers have heard a voice from, who was part of the Bleakness.

I guess the real beginning to the Bleakness, perhaps came to pass when Valan Luca across the Aiel Waste at least 5+ years before; the party of Rand, Mat, Egwene, Lan, Moiraine entered the Aiel Waste themselves. The Wise One Bair did comment about changes in gai'shan behavior (TSR book).


In the end, I believe and put forward a claim that it is Mat Cauthon, who will save a "remnant of a remnant" of the People. Not Rand al'Thor.



What did Egwene once listen to Wise One Bair stated about the Pattern, ji'e'toh, and Fate?


“The Pattern does not see ji’e’toh,” Bair told her, with only a hint of sympathy, if that. “Only what must and will be. Men and Maidens struggle against fate even when it is clear the Pattern weaves on despite their struggles, but you are no longer Far Dareis Mai. You must learn to ride fate. Only by surrendering to the Pattern can you begin to have some control over the course of your own life. If you fight, the Pattern will still force you, and you will find only misery where you might have found contentment instead.”

The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 5 "Among the Wise Ones" -- Egwene al'Vere point of view; next to Melaine, Amys, Bair, Aviendha

Who else curiously follows Bair's philosophy about Fate?
Mat Cauthon. A gambler. A general. A lover. Ta'veren.


Mat Cauthon never wanted to rule anything.
He wants to remain a free man, a commoner.
Absolutely never does Mat desire to become a noble.

He shivered. Couladin’s head really did appear to be grinning at him. He could almost hear the man speak. You may have killed me, but you’ve put your foot squarely in the trap. I’m dead, but you’ll never be free.

The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 45 "After the Storm" - Mat Cauthon point of view; next to Talmanes, Band of Red Hand et la


However, who proclaims that Mat Cauthon is a Noble? A Noble of Cairhien?


Talmanes.


“General!” Mat exclaimed, holding himself up with the spear haft. “I’m no flaming—! I mean, I wouldn’t want to usurp your place.” Let them figure out which one of them he meant.

“Burn my soul,” Nalesean said, “it was your battle skill that won for us, and kept us alive. Not to mention your luck. I’ve heard how you always turn the right card, but it is more than that. I’d follow you if you had never met the Lord Dragon.”

“You are our leader,” Talmanes said right on top of him, in a voice more sober if no less certain. “Until yesterday I have followed men of other lands because I must. You I will follow because I want to. Perhaps you are not a lord in Andor, but here, I say that you are, and I pledge myself your man.”

Cairhienin and Tairen stared at one another as though startled at voicing the same sentiment, then slowly, reluctantly, exchanged brief nods. If they did not like each other—and only a fool would bet against that—they could meet on this point. After a fashion.


The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 45 "After the Storm" -- Mat Cauthon point of view; with Talmanes, Nalesean, Melindhra

Nobles from Tairen, Cairhienin each agree, and proclaim that Mat Cauthon is now considered a Noble in their own eyes. Regardless, what Mat himself thinks on the issue.

Same topic of Mat Cauthon's Noble status arises in KoD, Chapter 26 "As If the World Were Fog"... and all his Officers agree that Mat is a Noble enough for them-
Cairhienin: Talmanes, Edorion
Tairens: Carlomin, Reimon


Even Estean, who's own father is the richest man in Tear, follows Mat Cauthon.
(Why did not Mat ever think of Estean's father to help build those Dragons' Eggs in Tear?)



Who has Mat Cauthon defeated in a fight?



Gawyn, a First Prince of Andor, Warder to Amyrlin Seat (TDR book)
Galad, current Lord-General of the Children of the Light (TDR book)
High Lord Darlin, the current King of Tear (TDR book)
Couladin, a pseudo-Car'a'carn and a leader of the Shiado Aiel Clans (TFoH book)



Who once sworn to follow Mat Cauthon commands, according to Rand al'Thor point of view? (See LoC, Chapter 4 "A Sense of Humor")

Every one of Aiel Clan Chiefs currently in Illian.

Bruan, of the Nakai Aiel
Erim, of the Chareen Aiel. (Sorilea's Clan)
Dhearic, of the Reyn Aiel (Urien's Clan. He told Mat of the Aiel's Sin in TGH book)
Han, of the Tomanelle Aiel
Jheran, of the Shaarad Aiel (Gaul's Clan. Wise One Bair's Clan, too)




Who else once promised to follow Mat Cauthon?


Nynaeve al'Meara-- aka, the "Soldier Queen"
Elayne -- current Queen of Andor.

Elayne is also Aes Sedai by "declaration" of an Amyrlin Seat Egwene al'Vere; a "declaration later seconded by the judgment of five Aes Sedai" in Ebou Dar: Adeleas, Careane, Merilille, Sareitha and Vandene (ACoS, Ch.30). Note only Merilille currently survives who witnessed this agreement, besides Elayne herself. Five is the same number, it takes to promote an Apprentice to Wise Ones status, among the Aiel Clans (TPoD, Ch.9 "Tangles"). Thus, the Aes Sedai and Wise One already are becoming alike, without Egwene al'Vere direct knowledge.



“There is more, Master Cauthon,” she announced, squaring her shoulders. The smile vanished from Nynaeve’s face. “We also wish to apologize for delaying so long in giving you your much deserved thanks. And we apologize . . . humbly . . . ” She stumbled a little on that. “ . . . for the way we have treated you since.” Nynaeve stretched out a beseeching hand that she ignored. “To show the depth of our regret, we undertake the following promises.” Aviendha had said an apology was only a beginning. “We will not belittle or demean you in any way, nor shout at you for any reason, nor . . . nor attempt to give you orders.” Nynaeve winced. Elayne’s mouth tightened too, but she did not stop. “Recognizing your due concern for our safety, we will not leave the palace without telling you where we are going, and we will listen to your advice.” Light, she had no wish to be Aiel, no wish to do any of this, but she wanted Aviendha’s respect. “If you . . . if you decide that we are . . . ” Not that she had any intention of becoming a sister-wife—the very idea was indecent!—but she did like her. “ . . . are putting ourselves in needless danger . . . ” It was not Aviendha’s fault that Rand had caught both their hearts. And Min’s as well. “ . . . we will accept bodyguards of your choosing . . . ” Fate or ta’veren or whatever, what was, was. She loved both women like sisters. “ . . . and keep them with us as long as possible.” Burn the man for doing this to her! It was not Mat Cauthon she meant. “This I swear by the Lion Throne of Andor.” She breathed in as if she had run a mile. Nynaeve wore a face like a cornered badger.

His head swiveled toward them ever so slowly, and he lowered the cloth just enough to expose one red-streaked eye. “You sound like you have an iron rod down your throat, my Lady,” he said mockingly. “You have my permission to call me Mat.” Odious man! He would not know civility if it bit him on the nose! That sanguine eye slanted toward her. “What about you, Nynaeve? I heard a lot of ‘we’ from her, but not a word from you.”

“I won’t shout at you,” Nynaeve shouted. “And all the rest, too. I promise, you . . . you . . . !” She gobbled on the edge of swallowing her tongue as she realized she could not call him one of the names he warranted without breaking the promise already. And yet, the effect of her shout was most gratifying.

With a cry, he shuddered and dropped the cloth, clutched his head with both hands. His eyes bulged. “Flaming dice,” he whimpered, or something very like.

A Crown of Swords, Chapter 22 "Small Sacrifices" -- Elayne point of view; with Nynaeve, Mat Cauthon. Close by is Setalle Anan.


Sadly, this set of Promises by Elayne & Nynaeve, is not communicated very well by Brandon Sanderson in Towers of Midnight book--in my judgment. Elayne's Chapters with Mat Cauthon in TofM are some of the worse chapters in that whole book, in relation to prior books. It's as if Elayne and Mat both suddenly forgot about their Promises, see #3 Promise below. Even Thom is off slightly (TofM, Ch.19 "Talk of Dragons"). :rolleyes:


Extracted the Promises given by Elayne to Mat Cauthon are:


“We will not belittle or demean you in any way,
nor shout at you for any reason, nor . . .
nor attempt to give you orders.”


“If you . . . if you decide that we are . . . ”
“ . . . are putting ourselves in needless danger . . . ”
“ . . . we will accept bodyguards of your choosing . . . ”
“ . . . and keep them with us as long as possible.”
“This I swear by the Lion Throne of Andor.”



Nynaeve agrees to the very same promises, to Mat Cauthon:


“I won’t shout at you,” Nynaeve shouted.“And all the rest, too. I promise, you . . . you . . . !” She gobbled on the edge of swallowing her tongue as she realized she could not call him one of the names he warranted without breaking the promise already. And yet, the effect of her shout was most gratifying.

A Crown of Swords, Chapter 22 "Small Sacrifices" -- Elayne point of view; with Nynaeve, Mat Cauthon. Close by is Setalle Anan


The Promises received by Mat Cauthon from both Nynaeve, Elayne are absolutely important. How is that known?

His eyes bulged. “Flaming dice,” he whimpered, or something very like.


This very same event occurred when Mat Cauthon received Promises and a Treaty from Tuon and her followers later in the series: "Flaming Dice"!


“Your customs are . . . earthy,” Tuon said in a dry voice, but she spat on her own palm and clasped his hand. “ ‘Thus is our treaty written; thus is agreement made.’ What does that writing on your spear mean, Toy?”

He did whimper this time, and not because she had read the Old Tongue inscription on his ashandarei. A bloody stone would have whimpered. The dice had stopped as soon as he touched her hand. Light, what had happened?


Crossroads of Twilight, Chapter 3 "A Fan of Colors" -- Mat Cauthon point of view; with Tuon, Selucia, Setalle Anan

Even Robert Jordan decidcd, to emphasize the importance of this Bargain between Tuon and Mat, by using the "Dice" in Mat Cauthon mind as a reference point.

What had happened? He had shaken hands with Tuon, that was all. Shaken hands and made a bargain. He meant to keep his side, but what had the dice told him? That she would keep hers? Or that she would not?

Crossroads of Twilight, Chapter 3 "A Fan of Colors" -- Mat Cauthon point of view; with Tuon, Selucia, Setalle Anan, and now Thom.

Slowly Mat Cauthon is gaining the leaders trust, and promises across the series.





Yet I claim Cauthon will become King... only after Nynaeve, Egwene wash his feet. At least King of the Aes Sedai....




Jendai Prophecies


"The White Tower shall be broken by his name, and Aes Sedai shall kneel to wash his feet and dry them with their hair."

The Shadow Rising, Chapter 19 - Nynaeve point of view -- Jendai Prophecies

Why would Aes Sedai wash Mat Cauthon's feet?
To convince him to become their "leader".
Why?

Remember how Mat once felt about Aes Sedai and the Power, early in the series?

In truth, he had gained more than the scar that day. The silver foxhead for one, its single eye shaded to look like the ancient symbol of Aes Sedai. Sometimes he laughed so hard over that medallion that his ribs hurt. He did not trust any Aes Sedai, so he even bathed and slept with the thing around his neck. The world was a funny place—funny peculiar, usually.

The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 5 "A Different Dance" - Mat Cauthon point of view


By Towers of Midnight book though, Mat Cauthon has changed. He trusts a few Aes Sedai with his very life now: Elayne, considering the loan of his Foxhead medallion for 3 days, while a Gholam was on the powl. Even Teslyn, whom Mat respects.


Continuing: To save, protect channelers as a free People--from the Seanchan Empire's a'dam. Who did Mat once Perrin to protect, in Two Rivers? Bode Cauthon, his sister. Why would Mat want to take the duties of a leader, when he dislikes being pushed around by Aes Sedai? To protect his friends, his family from harm. Only Mat Cauthon can protect the people his cares for, not Rand nor Perrin.



It was the name of the "Dragon", who broke the White Tower in two.
Who carries the Banner of the Dragon still? Mat Cauthon's Band of the Red Hand.


Mat Cauthon, just like Artur Hawkwing in a prior life---generally distrusts individuals with the Power. However, Mat has changed and come to respect Teslyn, a former Sitter of the Red Ajah.

Except Artur Hawkwing was manipulated by Ishamael... unlike Mat Cauthon, who has so far has avoided that Fate.
Cauthon unlike Hawkwing perhaps, saw multiple futures of his life... during a six month travel time through the "Worlds of If"... with Loial, Rand, Perrin, Uno, Ragan, Verin, Hurin et la
Hawkwing did not get a chance to molded by multiple other Ta'verens, either.
Nor Valan Luca's own Ta'veren effect.
(See TGH, TSR, TFoH, WH, CoT, KoD books)



I'll end this rambling set of writing, with a question about the very imagery Mat Cauthon's once spoke of, in comparison to:

“Moiraine, my memory has holes big enough for a wagon and team, but I remember Ba’alzamon being in my dreams.

The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 56 "People of the Dragon" -- Mat Cauthon point of view


A Tuatha'an wagon and team?
A Showfolk wagon and team?
Or perhaps a Daughter of the Night led wagon and team?


In other words:

Ila, Raen.
Valan Luca Inc.
Mierin.



Unfortunately, for Mierin... she sees Ba’alzamon in her dreams every night. Just as Mat Cauthon once did too. Of course Ba'alzamon new name is Moridin or Death--after LoC book.

The Immortal One
12-26-2010, 03:06 AM
But you've made a very good point about the toh. The thing is, if they've incurred toh because of violence and they feel they must pay it, then alright that's one thing. The ones who learned and became gaishan have done so as you said. But, the ones who learned their origins and didn't, perhaps it's because they don't believe they have toh in that specific area. I'm not in their heads so I'm assuming that. This raises the point though. If I were to say finn, that your ancestors a thousand years back believed in ___. For kicks and giggles let's say they were pacifists and you were not. If I told you this and you somehow knew it to be true, does that mean you too should become a pacifist? I'd like to think it doesn't. That's why I believe the Aiel now are not followers of the Way of the Leaf and therefore shouldn't NEED to go back to it. If they want to, that's one thing, but they shouldn't NEED to for their survival.


To be Aiel means to be Dedicated. It's not just a name, it's their identity, a reason to strive as hard as they do and how they are able to survive the Waste. Most Aiel believed that they had descended from great warriors. To learn that they broke away from what they used to be, showed less than total dedication was a blow to their identity. The Jenn Aiel, the true Dedicated died for their beliefs whereas they did not.


I disagree. I think that the Aiel believe they were Dedicated to serving the Aes Sedai. That their violation of their ancestors oath of service causes their toh.

They can then expiate their 'sin' by serving the Dragon; who is the only Aes Sedai worthy of being served. The other Aes Sedai have shown they have no honour.

Crazy Madness
12-26-2010, 07:06 PM
okay, so I was just reading the book, and I noticed this thread, and alot of the time it says that Tuon is the one breaking the treaty. When you read the (is it memories of the future? sounds deep doesn't it. I will say memories, but at this point this is reffering to the thought of the descendants of Avi.) Her descendants, the early one ( perhaps Oncla, the names escape me at the moment) remembers that her mother had said that the Current Empress had been a good one, holding to the treaty. but then the memories say that she DIED, and the new Leader began the war once again.



Yeah, I know, this is a really bad explanation, but I'm not much of a blogger and this is one I feel I have to comment on.

finn
12-27-2010, 07:09 AM
I disagree. I think that the Aiel believe they were Dedicated to serving the Aes Sedai. That their violation of their ancestors oath of service causes their toh.

They can then expiate their 'sin' by serving the Dragon; who is the only Aes Sedai worthy of being served. The other Aes Sedai have shown they have no honour.

"The Aiel are the Covenant" -- quoting from memory. To their knowledge, the Aes Sedai who gave them their final instructions asked them to keep to the WotL even if they lost everything else. It was in this that they failed the Aes Sedai. They serve 'He who comes with the Dawn', as their Caracarn; not the Dragon who is part of a wetlander prophecy and once was Aes Sedai. And they do so because their own prophecies warn of the consequences should they fail.

They were erroneously called the Children of the Dragon and associated with him, even though they served other Aes Sedai besides him. They talk of "maybe" serving Aes Sedai again and say that time may come again but it wouldn't be a question if that was where their obligations lay. I'm sure it was violating the covenant that incurred the greater toh.

Juan
12-27-2010, 02:40 PM
I really don't like the fact that the Aiel need to pay for their ancestors' "failures." I put failures in quotation mark because being a pacifist may be ok for the Tinkers and the Aiel of old, but to those who don't believe in that, not being a pacifist isn't a failure.

Also, I'm very big on justice and fairness, and it doesn't seem fair nor just that the Aiel need to survive by becoming something they are not. Just because their ancestors were pacifists doesn't mean they should be pacifists too to survive. I'm not saying it won't happen, likely the Aiel will become pacifists, but it will bother me greatly if it does because it's not fair to the current Aiel.

wireguy
12-27-2010, 10:29 PM
Felix you are truly unique in your ability to completely disregard half a sentence to make a tenuous connection in support of a silly theory. My hat is off to you sir.

now for something in particular that caught my eye...

I'll end this rambling set of writing, with a question about the very imagery Mat Cauthon's once spoke of, in comparison to:

Quote:
“Moiraine, my memory has holes big enough for a wagon and team, but I remember Ba’alzamon being in my dreams.

The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 56 "People of the Dragon" -- Mat Cauthon point of view

1. A Tuatha'an wagon and team?
2. A Showfolk wagon and team?
3. Or perhaps a Daughter of the Night led wagon and team?


How about the most obvious answer.... It's just a figure of speech to describe how large the gaps in his memory are and has nothing to do with any particular wagon and/or team.

Cor Shan
12-28-2010, 03:12 AM
The viewing of the future annoyed me greatly. While I dislike the Seanchan and like the Aiel, I think that ending follows logically from the societies involved. What annoyed me was that there were

Super powerful multiple-birthed children of the foretold leader of the desert warrior tribe

Just like in Dune.

Plus I'm going to have hope that the ter'angreal doesn't work accurately to foretell the future.

The Immortal One
12-31-2010, 12:48 AM
"The Aiel are the Covenant" -- quoting from memory. To their knowledge, the Aes Sedai who gave them their final instructions asked them to keep to the WotL even if they lost everything else. It was in this that they failed the Aes Sedai. They serve 'He who comes with the Dawn', as their Caracarn; not the Dragon who is part of a wetlander prophecy and once was Aes Sedai. And they do so because their own prophecies warn of the consequences should they fail.

They were erroneously called the Children of the Dragon and associated with him, even though they served other Aes Sedai besides him. They talk of "maybe" serving Aes Sedai again and say that time may come again but it wouldn't be a question if that was where their obligations lay. I'm sure it was violating the covenant that incurred the greater toh.

Yet they do not say, or even think very often, about being the 'People of the Dragon'. Even the Clan Chiefs who may know of that error through the crystal columns think of themselves that way; as the 'People of the Dragon'.

Which is why I said they seem to believe that their greatest service is to the Dragon.

Yes. They never say it straight out. When someone calls Rand the Dragon Reborn the Aiel say that they follow the Caracarn, and the Dragon is a wetlander prophecy. But they still believe they are the People of the Dragon, and they still follow him and no other.
They never say they serve the Dragon, but since saying 'People of the Dragon' is taboo, they surely calling him the Dragon must be too (or at least they might think that).

Breaking the Covenant may be their biggest failure, to you and me. But how do they think of it? Some throw down their spears and run away; some join the Shaido to fight against Rand, to fight against the very idea; others wear that red headband with the ancient Aes Sedai symbol and follow Rand like fanatics; and the rest?

No I don't know how the story will play out, but I doubt if the majority think their biggest toh is their losing the Way of the Leaf. If they did they would risk everything to meet their toh and regain some measure of ji. Even if it meant failing the Caracarn. Even if it meant the end of the Aiel.
The Aiel may have been 'the Covenant' back in the Age of Legends; but now the 'Aiel don't just follow ji'e'toh, the Aiel are ji'e'toh'. Even if it meant their death an Aiel would make their best effort to meet their toh.

The Immortal One
01-02-2011, 12:14 AM
Yeah, I even found a quote from Aviendha to support my arguement:

THE FIRES OF HEAVEN
Chapter 46 - Other Battles, Other Weapons
Aviendha hesitated before saying, "I do not know what to believe." She spoke as quietly as before, yet she sounded angry and unsure. "There are many beliefs, and the Wise Ones are often silent, as if they do not know the truth. Some say that in following you, we expiate the sin of our ancestors in . . . in failing the Aes Sedai."

finn
01-04-2011, 04:43 AM
She also goes on to say:“Too many have heard some version of part of the Prophecy of Rhuidean now, but it has been twisted."

The Aiel who didn't go to Rhuidean were never aware of the specifics and thus put their own interpretation on the revelations. And it doesn't contradict what I said about the Aiel failing the Aes Sedai in maintaining the WotL.

When asked what the Wise Ones believe, she says:
“That what must be, will be. We will save what can be saved, Rand al’Thor. We do not hope to do more.”
They follow him only for that purpose, not because he was the dragon which was never a part of their prophecies.

“The Dragon Reborn is a wetlander prophecy,” Rhuarc said. “Ours is He Who Comes With the Dawn.”
“I thought they were the same. Else why did you come to the Stone? Burn me, Rhuarc, you Aiel are the People of the Dragon, just as the Prophecies say. You’ve as good as admitted it, even if you won’t say it out loud.”
Rhuarc ignored the last part. “In your Prophecies of the Dragon, the fall of the Stone and the taking of Callandor proclaim that the Dragon has been Reborn. Our prophecy says only that the Stone must fall before He Who Comes With the Dawn appears to take us back to what was ours. They may be one man, but I doubt even the Wise Ones could say for sure. If Rand is the one, there are things he must do yet to prove it.”
Yes. They never say it straight out. When someone calls Rand the Dragon Reborn the Aiel say that they follow the Caracarn, and the Dragon is a wetlander prophecy. But they still believe they are the People of the Dragon, and they still follow him and no other.
I think what Rhuarc said (in the quote above) dispels any notion of Aiel following the dragon. Before Rand successfully returned from Rhuidean, there was nothing to say that HWCWtD and the Dragon Reborn would even be the same person.

They never say they serve the Dragon, but since saying 'People of the Dragon' is taboo, they surely calling him the Dragon must be too (or at least they might think that).It is a secret name, one that had passed on and established through custom among those who used the spears well before any Aiel went to Rhuidean. After they learned of the truth, the name seldom remained in use and only among Wise Ones and Clan Chiefs since it came from their remembrance.

Breaking the Covenant may be their biggest failure, to you and me. But how do they think of it? Some throw down their spears and run away; some join the Shaido to fight against Rand, to fight against the very idea; others wear that red headband with the ancient Aes Sedai symbol and follow Rand like fanatics; and the rest?

As Aviendha said, the interpretation of the revelations were twisted. Yes you have varied reactions ranging between those extremes of denial and fanatic embrace. The former joined the Shaido, the latter embraced the symbol Rand led them by that couldn't be seen as impersonating a clan chief. Some attempted to atone for themselves by joining the Tinkers (something unthinkable for Aiel) while many take to becoming gai'shain - both paths in accordance with the WotL. The majority follow the Cara'carn as per their prophecies, guided in this by the Wise Ones.

SnoodSedai
01-06-2011, 05:25 AM
My thoughts:

1) Tuon eventually dies and whatever treaty there is will be null and void. One of the "episodes" Avi saw had someone mention the "old Empress" fondly, implying she died and some other Seanchan decided to destroy the Aiel. One of you already mentioned it here, and I agree with that line of thinking. Also, I think since Tuon can channel, she either has to face it or hide it. If she accepts it and makes it public, some crazy Seanchan drama will happen and she may very well get assassinated for it or something.

2) As much as I like the Aiel and dislike the Seanchan, the Aiel will most likely die off. "remnant of a remnant," and "he will destroy them" prophecies, etc. (Don't get me wrong, this majorly bums me out, because the Aiel are probably my fave people in the series)

3) I really want to think that Aviendha just saw a VERSION of the future and she will somehow be able to change it, but that may just be wishful thinking. In fact, I'm leaning more towards the idea that she TRIES to change it, and in doing so, it leads to the events she actually saw. You know, irony of being unable to escape fate, a la Classical Greek tragedy.

I really can't stop thinking of the "he will destroy the Aiel" prophecy. I feel like that's it and that's final. Extremely unfortunate. :(

This is my first post! Be kind please :)

Weird Harold
01-06-2011, 06:23 AM
3) I really want to think that Aviendha just saw a VERSION of the future and she will somehow be able to change it, but that may just be wishful thinking. In fact, I'm leaning more towards the idea that she TRIES to change it, and in doing so, it leads to the events she actually saw.

What do you think of the possibility that what Aviendha saw in her second passage was a forgery intended to make her try to change some important bit of Prophecy -- like the Dragon's Peace that apparently fulfills the various Divide the Land Prophecies but Aviendha's vision shows as the reason for the Aiel's doom?

(Start here for a long and rambling discussion on Svengali Nakomi: http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=134635&highlight=Svengali+Routine#post134635

FelixPax
01-06-2011, 01:29 PM
now for something in particular that caught my eye...

“Moiraine, my memory has holes big enough for a wagon and team, but I remember Ba’alzamon being in my dreams.

The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 56 "People of the Dragon" -- Mat Cauthon point of view


How about the most obvious answer.... It's just a figure of speech to describe how large the gaps in his memory are and has nothing to do with any particular wagon and/or team.

Brandon Sanderson has claimed Robert Jordan was an "extremely subtle (http://twitter.com/#!/BrandonSandrson/statuses/22778067181113344)" writer.

Unusual word definitions, parallels, folklore, music, mythology, symbolism, themes et la, are all par for the course, for Jordan. He drew from many sources to create this literary series. A Wagon might be a simple every day idea... however not within this series.


A wagon is a "Haywain"....


"The Haywain" is referred to by Egwene al'Vere & Mat Cauthon each as a Star Constellation in the WOT series.

A Haywain is also the name of two very famous paintings:


The Haywain Triptych by Hieronymus Bosch (http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jheronimus_Bosch) (Dutch, begun 1485 & completed 1490)
The Hay Wain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hay_Wain) by John Constable (English, 1821)
Haw Wain (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/257663/Hay-Wain), according to Encyclopedia Britannica


In particular the complex symbolism, allegories, parallels, meanings of Hieronymus Bosch painting, seems apt for the Wheel of Time series.


As it deals with "Sin", a theme a kin to "Aiel Sin", which Urien mentions to both Perrin, Mat Cauthon (TDR). (Also highlighting a tree, serpent, apple, wagon et la)


"You call it the Waste," Urien said. "To us it is the Three-fold Land. A shaping stone, to make, us; a testing ground, to prove our worth; and a punishment for the sin."

"What sin?" Mat asked. Perrin caught his breath, waiting for the spears in Urien's hand to flash.

The Aiel shrugged. "So long ago it was, that none remember. Except the Wise Ones and the clan chiefs, and they will not speak of it. It must have been a very great sin if they cannot bring themselves to tell us, but the Creator punishes us well."


The Great Hunt, Chapter 28 "A New Thread in the Pattern" -- Perrin point of view; with Mat Cauthon, Ingtar, Uno, Ragan, Verin in scene



An allegorically interaction has been occurring between "the Haywain" and "the Plowman" for while now....


Rand is not the 'Plowman' either...

Reflected fire made the made seem aflame. Rand started. He had often daydreamed about owning a sword. "Give it away? How could you give a sword like that way?"

Tam snorted. "Not much use in herding sheep, now is it? Can't plow a field or havest a crop with it."

The Eye of the World, Chapter 5 "Winternight" -- Rand point of view, with Tam al'Thor

What turns the earth like a Plow... a tree.

The massive web of root turned the earth like plows as it spread; the already huge trunk shivered, grew wider, round as a house.

The Eye of the World, Chapter 50 "Meetings at the Eye" -- Rand point of view; with Loial, Mat, Perrin, Moiraine, Lan, Nynaeve, Elayne, Egwene and Forsaken Aginor, Balthamel


Valan Luca's traveling companion out of Illian... leaving the Great Square of Tammaz (TFoH, Ch.36)... married a girl off one of the farms.

Mistress Madwen turned her smile on Rand. "My Lord, I had a man here who played the bittern, but he married a girl off one of the farms, and she has him strumming reins behind a plow, now.

The Great Hunt, Chapter 21 "The Nine Rings" -- Rand point of view; with Mistress Madwen, Selene/Mierin/Moonhunter, Loial, Hurin


Who sought to learn songs at Loial's home Stedding previously?
A Tuatha'an Seeker... mostly likely to be Valan Luca.

"The Traveling People live for their songs," Loial said. "For all songs, for that matter. For the search for them, at least. I met some Tuatha'an a few years back, and they wanted to learn the songs we sing to trees. Actually, the trees won't listen to very many anymore, and so not many Ogier learn the songs. I have a scrap of that Talent, so Elder Arent insisted I learn. I taught the Tuatha'an what they could learn, but the trees never listen to humans. For the Traveling People they were only songs, and just as well received for that, since none was the song they seek. That's what they call the leader of each band, the Seeker. They come to Stedding Shangtai, sometimes. Few humans do."

The Eye of the World, Chapter 42 "Remembrance of Dreams" -- Rand point of view; with Loial, Moiraine, Lan, Mat Cauthon, Perrin, Egwene, Nynaeve

Why would Valan Luca and a companion want to head directly to Cairhien, Stedding Tsofu, after attending the giving of Hunters Oaths at the Great Square of Tammez in Illian?

"We have two Treesingers in Stedding Tsofu. They are rare, now. I have heard that Stedding Shanghai has a young Treesinger who is very talented, but we have two." Loial blushed, but she did not appear to notice.


The Great Hunt, Chapter 35 "Stedding Tsofu" -- Rand point of view; with Erith, Loial, Verin, Rand, Perrin, Mat, Ingtar, a Maidin Rhian, Juin son of Lacel son of Laud

The same Tuatha'an Seeker whom Loial taught songs years ago, likely told Erith about Stedding Shanghai Treesinger. A person who is likely one Valan Luca.


What mode of transportation does Valan Luca use, again?
A wagon, a haywain. :)


Just as Mat Cauthon has memories missing, he has not yet figured out who exactly Valan Luca is--his soul, his star constellation he'd tied to--by KoD book. Hence, the highlighting of "my memory has holes big enough for a wagon and team."

If Mat Cauthon re-gained his own soul's memories, he'd know who the Haywain is. Already.

"The Archer" on the other hand, Birgitte, knows exactly who Valan Luca is. Just as she knows specifically who Mat Cauthon really is.

wireguy
01-06-2011, 04:53 PM
As I stated before... Felix you are truly unique in your ability to completely disregard entire passages in a paragraph or portions within a sentence to pull a word or phrase out of context to draw a conclusion that supports a silly, and almost certainly outlandish, theory. Just because you put some phrase or word in BOLD FONT doesn't mean you have made a point or that you are making any sense. A Haywain? Are you kidding me? We are immersed in a world that is the technological equivalent to the middle ages of Europe. Taking the period, technology, and typical living standard for the general population in to consideration it would be reasonable to conclude that a regular person would inevitably make references to farms, plows, wagons, horses, and just about any other implement that would be found on a farm to describe what they are seeing. It wouldn't make much sense if a first person POV was making comparisons using imagery of items they would be completely unfamiliar with.

I applaud your enthusiasm for the series and the time you apparently spend researching some of the ideas you come up with but this is completely over the top. While we, the reading fandom, are well aware of the subtle nature of RJ's writing skill that does not mean that every figure of speech and description is an allegory. In many circumstances, as with the pieces of passages you put in bold, what we are seeing is to be taken at face value as the author needs to convey, in terms familiar to the character and the reader, what exactly is going on in the scene.

wireguy
01-06-2011, 05:12 PM
Oh, and one more thing...

As I edit my miscue. Luca was at Illian while the oath was being done. I should read the character chronology before posting outbursts. My mistake.

But as for the rest... Valan Luca is NOT a tinker. That hasn't changed. There is no reason to believe that Luca has been to any Steading looking to learn how to tree sing. That would be completely out of character for him making it highly unlikely to have happened off screen.

FelixPax
01-06-2011, 06:03 PM
Oh, and one more thing...

As I edit my miscue. Luca was at Illian while the oath was being done. I should read the character chronology before posting outbursts. My mistake.

Technically speaking, it's known Valan Luca was at Illian. However, it's unknown if he took the Hunter's Oath or not.


But as for the rest... Valan Luca is NOT a tinker. That hasn't changed. There is no reason to believe that Luca has been to any Steading looking to learn how to tree sing. That would be completely out of character for him making it highly unlikely to have happened off screen.

Your first claims depends, on when in the story you believe Valan Luca was cast out of the Tuatha'an.

Erith's word's point to Valan Luca, getting "cast out" of the Tuatha'an at Stedding Tsofu just before Rand, Perrin, Mat Cauthon, Loial, Ingtar, Verin all show up.

Secondly, an external "casting out" of a person from a group, does not mean their behaviors or beliefs will change, if at all internally.

In the case of the historical Luca, he claims to remain a Da'Shain Aiel regardless (TSR book). For Valan Luca, I think its the very same deal--he's a Tuatha'an at heart. One of the few true Tuatha'an at heart, in the sense of the original Aes Sedai order & intentions, during the Break period.


Valan Luca is almost Bard-like in his talents.
Even hinting this early in the series below:

"That gown will frame your unfolding bravery to perfection," he murmured in her ear, "yet not a quarter so well as your display yourself, for night-blooming dara lilies would weep with envy to see you stroll beside the moonlit water, as I would do, and make myself a bard to sing your praises by this very moon.

The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 34 "A Silver Arrow" -- Nynaeve point of view; Valan Luca speaking, with Elayne, Thom, Juilin in scene


Perhaps it was Valan Luca, who was coming to Fal Dara?

"Mother, it shames me that you come one day and leave the next. I swear to you, there will be no repetition of last night. I have tripled the guard on the city gates as well as the keep. I have tumblers in from the town, and a bard coming from Mos Shirare. Why, King Easar will be on his way from Fal Moran. I sent word as soon . . .

The Great Hunt, Chapter 9 "Leavetaking" -- Rand point of view; with Siuan, Lord Agelmar, Leane, Lan

His Show's tumblers had to come from some where, after all.


Valan Luca seems to have been near "The Eye", at the end of EotW book.
Valan Luca was known to be near Falme, at the end of TGH book.

Juan
01-06-2011, 06:23 PM
Felix what I'm curious to know is since you seem to believe that Valan Luca is such an important character, why is he not in your signature? I mean in most of the theories that I've seen you post lately, Valan Luca is in them, and yet you have other characters mentioned in your signature but not Luca.

wireguy
01-06-2011, 09:01 PM
well lets see here...

Your first claims depends, on when in the story you believe Valan Luca was cast out of the Tuatha'an.

Erith's word's point to Valan Luca, getting "cast out" of the Tuatha'an at Stedding Tsofu just before Rand, Perrin, Mat Cauthon, Loial, Ingtar, Verin all show up.

Secondly, an external "casting out" of a person from a group, does not mean their behaviors or beliefs will change, if at all internally.

In the case of the historical Luca, he claims to remain a Da'Shain Aiel regardless (TSR book). For Valan Luca, I think its the very same deal--he's a Tuatha'an at heart. One of the few true Tuatha'an at heart, in the sense of the original Aes Sedai order & intentions, during the Break period.



what Erith said is that the Tinkers left but didn't say why they left. The exact quote from Erith after she introduces herself is...

We have had so few human visitors since the stonemasons left Cairhien, and now so many at once. Why, we even had some of the Traveling People, though, of course, they left when the.... Oh, I talk too much. I will take you to the Elders.

It is just after this exchange that Rand and co run across the three maidens who are in the Stedding when the group arrives looking to use the Waygate. Well this leaves a little problem with your declaration that Valon Luca was cast out of the Tinkers while at the Stedding. The passage implies that the Tinkers left when the Aiel showed up, not that a single member had been tossed out of the commune. It in no way implies what you are assuming and this is the only place I can find where Erith speaks directly on the subject.

Now the next quote about Valan...

Valan Luca is almost Bard-like in his talents.
Even hinting this early in the series below:

Quote:
"That gown will frame your unfolding bravery to perfection," he murmured in her ear, "yet not a quarter so well as your display yourself, for night-blooming dara lilies would weep with envy to see you stroll beside the moonlit water, as I would do, and make myself a bard to sing your praises by this very moon.

The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 34 "A Silver Arrow" -- Nynaeve point of view; Valan Luca speaking, with Elayne, Thom, Juilin in scene

Perhaps it was Valan Luca, who was coming to Fal Dara?

Quote:
"Mother, it shames me that you come one day and leave the next. I swear to you, there will be no repetition of last night. I have tripled the guard on the city gates as well as the keep. I have tumblers in from the town, and a bard coming from Mos Shirare. Why, King Easar will be on his way from Fal Moran. I sent word as soon . . .

The Great Hunt, Chapter 9 "Leavetaking" -- Rand point of view; with Siuan, Lord Agelmar, Leane, Lan
His Show's tumblers had to come from some where, after all.


Valan Luca seems to have been near "The Eye", at the end of EotW book.
Valan Luca was known to be near Falme, at the end of TGH book.

There are a couple problems with this mess you posted.

First. Valan Luca was introduced as a character in The Fires of Heaven when Elyane and Ny were on the lamb from Tanchico and Moggy while trying to find Salidar. There is absolutely NO proof or implication to sustain your claim that he was anywhere near the blight at the end of tEotW or around Falme during TGH. In fact wasn't he in Illian when the Hunters took the oath to find the horn? That might make it kind of difficult to be in the Borderlands or Arad Doman within the time constraints pre-traveling era.

Second. What man anywhere on the planet hasn't be driven to sing a love song for the target of his romantic interest while trying to win her heart? I can tell you I've sung horribly to win the affection of women and I, by no means, am professional in skill. This only proves the man is a complete ham and willing to make an ass of himself to win the affection of a woman.

Third. Are tumblers so uncommon that the only group that could possibly be with the Luca's menagerie came from Fal Dara?

The truth is you are ignoring everything around these quotes you are pulling to support a ridiculous notion of a theory. You are pulling content so far out of context that there is no reasonable way you can support your declarations. You have no substantial reference to draw conclusions from and what you do have I wouldn't even classify as questionable enough to draw a tenuous connection. You have nothing.

edit: grammar problems

Well I let myself be drawn into an exchange that has nothing to do with the topic at hand; shame on me.
As for the future of the Aiel... Many will perish, few will survive. So says the prophecies of the Wise Ones. One way or another the Aiel need to change thus the society that I've come to love will fade into memory. It's my hope that it will be in a positive move but there is always the chance that they will be exterminated.

Juan
01-06-2011, 09:45 PM
People keep suggesting that the way the Aiel can survive is to go back to the Way of the Leaf. I've been thinking about it and that doesn't make sense to me. Here's why:

Well, from what I remember, the Aiel were pretty much destroyed and hunted down because they broke the Dragon's Peace or whatever. And then in the fight against the Seanchan, although the Aiel were good warriors, it seemed like they lacked the organization and order required to successfully stage a full war against the highly organized Seanchan Empire. Also, as has been noted, the Aiel seemed to have "stayed in the past" and not progressed technologically whereas the Seanchan did.

So we got a few solutions.

1. Go back to the Way of the Leaf. But that's not really solving anything. You're just avoiding a fight against the Seanchan invaders. And remember, the Seanchan have committed crimes against the Aiel and have leashed people, etc. etc. The Aiel can't and shouldn't do this; seems cowardly.

2. The Aiel don't go back to the Way of the Leaf, but just don't break the Dragon's Peace. Again, the Seanchan have committed crimes against the Aiel and need to be punished/driven out (however you want to see it). Unless the Seanchan does some sort of meaningfully apology and pays their incurred toh, the Aiel must and should fight them. Not doing so is cowardly. The Seanchan have much to answer for.

3. Since the Seanchan Empress/Empire will never apologize.. Ok, I shouldn't rule it out completely, but come on, it's highly unlikely, they consider themselves above everyone else. And the empress/emperor is like a goddess/god above everyone else (even the Dragon Reborn.... hahahahah). So since this likely won't happen, the Peace will be broken (and should be). Thing is, the Aiel have to progress technologically and adapt to the new world, which is increasingly advancing in technology. Also, they need to establish a better command system. It seemed like most of the clan chiefs and Wise Ones left were very foolish and bickered about too many things and accomplished too little. And too much power was vested in Rand's offspring because they were Rand's offspring but were too emotional to the point their thinking was blurred.

-- so if the Aiel adapt to the new technologies, get better leaders, and don't view Rand's children too highly, the Aiel will definitely have a much better chance against the Seanchan. Especially if they ally themselves with the wetlander nations under Seanchan rule. Especially Andor. Easier said than done, but it can be done. This would be my solution.

SnoodSedai
01-06-2011, 10:54 PM
@WeirdHarold - not sure if I'm buying the Svengali stuff quite completely (it's def an interesting one!), but I do like the idea of Nakomi possibly being Lanfear. Something is definitely afoot there. I'm still inclined to think that Avi is going to try something to avert the course of events that MAY lead to what she saw in Rhuidean, but to her dismay, it will actually cause those events. Just a hunch, no evidence there.

As to where the discussion has headed, I fail to see the supreme importance of Valan Luca and don't buy any theory regarding his involvement with the topic of this thread, i.e. The Future of the Aiel.

FelixPax
01-07-2011, 12:32 PM
Felix what I'm curious to know is since you seem to believe that Valan Luca is such an important character, why is he not in your signature? I mean in most of the theories that I've seen you post lately, Valan Luca is in them, and yet you have other characters mentioned in your signature but not Luca.

Valan Luca is partially Cupid. He'll aid help in setting up a treaty & future loving marriage between Mat Cauthon & Fortuona. Getting peace, finding the song to help the land grow again and aiding women in distress are all things Luca values. Luca wants justice, order, love and attention.

Valan Luca is also partially molded upon an elephant-head deity called Ganesha (a few other spellings of his name exist, do note). An image of Ganesha is shown in my handle's photo. ;)


Pre-TofM book being published, I thought Valan Luca was going to be the 3rd Man to enter the Tower of Ghenjei with Mat Cauthon, Thom--not Noal. Obviously, Brandon & Team Jordan had other ideas for his destination. Valan Luca was not seen, nor found at all in TofM book.

I don't believe the current author has a full grasp of how to write Valan Luca just yet. Hence, the author known desire to see a Luca character parallels essay. Perhaps that's only to bounce outside ideas against what other members of Team Jordan think currently? Remember Linda at 13th Depository never wrote up an Essay on Luca nor Ila nor Raen either. Brandon Sanderson had less HCFF help on understanding Valan Luca character from the get go, than other major characters. That's one reason readers have not seen Luca's Circus since KoD book, I suspect.

Luca was suppose to go to Lugard, Caemlyn, and then by ship up to Tar Valon--according to what he stated to Mat Cauthon in KoD Book. Seems that Luca's journey to or through Caemlyn was altered, some how. Why?

I still do connect Mat Cauthon and Valan Luca together, in the final book.

Why else? Because Valan Luca I claim is a Fourth Ta'veren in the story. Powerful enough of a Ta'veren to literally delay three other Ta'veren--Rand, Mat, Perrin--by months and months, from arriving at Toman Head in TGH book. Yes, the Pattern has highlighted Valan Luca importance since at least TGH book.

Valan Luca prior interactions with Elayne, Nynaeve, Mat Cauthon will be of key importance in the final book. Luca made a promise to Nynaeve. Elayne will find a tame Ta'veren, so to speak: Valan Luca. Mat can use Luca's aid surprisingly too.

Valan Luca has his own family troubles...
Cast-out of the Tuatha'an by Ila, Raen along with others.
Perhaps a family reunion is coming? In Tar Valon?

Goldie
01-07-2011, 12:40 PM
Forgive me if I am missing something.
I can't think of anything pointing to Valen Luca being a cast out Tinker. I don't have all of my books right now because I lent them to my mother-in-law, but I haven't been able to find a reference in the ones I do have. Could someone enlighten me.

FelixPax
01-07-2011, 01:29 PM
Forgive me if I am missing something.
I can't think of anything pointing to Valen Luca being a cast out Tinker. I don't have all of my books right now because I lent them to my mother-in-law, but I haven't been able to find a reference in the ones I do have. Could someone enlighten me.

Did you ever notice how Jordan switch in mid-series from stressing Valan Luca's first name to his last name? Or how description of clothing foreshadows?

IdealSeek query for: Valan (http://idealseek.no-ip.com/IdealSeek.cgi?q=Valan)versus Luca (http://idealseek.no-ip.com/IdealSeek.cgi?q=Luca)

Robert Jordan hinted at names being repeated as being important, through Morgase's point of view in ACoS book, Chapter 26:

Her name, mentioned so often, as if to highlight it. But what . . . ?

Jordan did the very thing for Valan Luca's character. He switched from emphasizing Valan, instead to Luca. Why? To emphasize a link to a historical Luca, who was named in 'The Shadow Rising' book.


Robert Jordan emphasize the importance of clothing, livery across this series at a very early point. What a character wears give clues. Just as much, as character's comments:

... and a bright-eyed fellow who looked a Tinker in a red-striped coat, except for the sword he carried, blade crimson from end to end.

Lord of Chaos, Chapter 55 "Dumai's Wells" -- Rand point of view; of Aram in specifically, and also Perrin, Loial in that scene too.

Bright Colors, in particular Red Coats, Red Dresses, Red Cloaks & Capes are connection to Tuatha'an characters, or ex-Tuatha'an characters. Like Aram, Valan Luca, Rendra et la.

Rendra came bustling between the tables with a smile on her rosebud lips behind her veil. Elayne wished she did not look so much like Liandrin. “Ah. You are so pretty this morning. Your dresses, they are magnificent. Beautiful.” As if the honey-haired woman had not had as much to do with choosing the fabric and cut as they. Her own was red enough for a Tinker and definitely not suitable for public.

The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 46 "Veils" -- Elayne point of view; with Rendra, Egeanin, Nynaeve


Even Leane knows who Nynaeve & Elayne met with Tuatha'an or ex-Tuatha'an of some sort, because of Nynaeve's red dress wrapped around a Seal, in Salidar.


Rendra is not just any Innkeeper either...
She has her own secrets! :D

GonzoTheGreat
01-08-2011, 04:46 AM
Has the Shadow caught on to the importance of the gunpowder weapons, yet?

If not, that would argue very strongly against the idea that this was a Shadow induced series of visions, as those weapons (and the steam engines) are presented as very important innovations. I find it difficult to imagine Lanfear putting such a weight on them. And as for Verin; she wouldn't have known about the Dragons at all.

After rereading the chapters, I think that what Aviendha saw is the future as it would have been if Rand had won and she hadn't seen this. In that case, the Aiel would have been kept outside the Dragon's Peace agreement, and eventually they would all have disappeared.

What I think will happen now is that Rand makes Tuon return the captive Aiel; or at least the non-Shaido ones. After they've served their year and a day, of course. Rand will also come up with some goal for the Aiel to strive for, which will allow them to keep trying to gain toh. The basic problem Aviendha saw was that there was no more toh to be gotten, and thus there were no checks and balances to the Aiel life style.

FelixPax
01-08-2011, 11:21 AM
Has the Shadow caught on to the importance of the gunpowder weapons, yet?

If not, that would argue very strongly against the idea that this was a Shadow induced series of visions, as those weapons (and the steam engines) are presented as very important innovations. I find it difficult to imagine Lanfear putting such a weight on them. And as for Verin; she wouldn't have known about the Dragons at all.

Problems:


There are likely too few gunpowder weapons to dent the number of Trollocs invading.
Mostly if not all gunpower weapons are in a City under Siege currently, Caemlyn.
The gunpowders weapons are not on the front lines, in the Borderland's. Nor are they in Tarabon, Amadicia, Altara to blunt an massive attack on the South flank. Nor are they in Ghealdin, Two Rivers to repel an attack out of the Mountains of Mist. Nor are they along the Spine of World... remember there are Ways all along that mountain chain too.


Overall, gunpower weapons are too little too late to made a significance difference in the outcome of the battle to the death, against the Shadow.


Perhaps if Mat Cauthon had built Dragons' Eggs in Tear, Aiel Waste and elsewhere... they'd be more important.


Its as if Mat Cauthon forgot who controls the economic resources among the Aiel Clans--the Roofmistresses--and forgot who Estean's father is--the richest High Lord in all of Tear. Nor did Mat Cauthon use the Kin's very rich economic resources, found all across the Westlands. :rolleyes:


Either Robert Jordan did not want Mat Cauthon's character to go to Tear, Aiel Waste et la... or Brandon Sanderson fixed the outcome of events to try to fit with Jordan's theme of' 'too little to late'. Not enough preparation for war.

GonzoTheGreat
01-08-2011, 12:08 PM
But those weapons were given a lot of weight in the vision Aviendha saw. Which means that whoever or whatever inspired it did have knowledge of them, and saw that they had a lot of potential.
Aviendha had never even heard about the things, as far as we know. Neither had the WOs who send her to Rhuidean. So there would not seem to be any reason why they would have been included in her visions at all, based on most of the considered human suspects.

Which leaves the idea that it was at least a genuine Pattern inspired vision. It may or may not have been an accurate portrayal of the future, but it was not something that was cooked up by a human agent.
Me, I think that it was something like the alternative lives Rand et al. had in TGH when they used the Portal Stone to go to Falme.

Weird Harold
01-08-2011, 04:17 PM
Has the Shadow caught on to the importance of the gunpowder weapons, yet?

If not, that would argue very strongly against the idea that this was a Shadow induced series of visions, as those weapons (and the steam engines) are presented as very important innovations. I find it difficult to imagine Lanfear putting such a weight on them. And as for Verin; she wouldn't have known about the Dragons at all.

I don't have access to the book to recheck my first impression, but I didn't associate the Seanchan's new weapons with gunpowder and steam engines, but as rediscovered OP-based technology like proto-shocklances and and Model-T jo-cars.

The POV was so ignorant that the description seemed almost cartoonish, though, so I'm not sure much can be learned about Seanchan technological development or changes in their tolerance for OP derived weapons.

GonzoTheGreat
01-08-2011, 04:24 PM
I don't have access to the book to recheck my first impression, but I didn't associate the Seanchan's new weapons with gunpowder and steam engines, but as rediscovered OP-based technology like proto-shocklances and and Model-T jo-cars.Maybe, but on the other hand:
Aiel could not fight in secret. There was no honor to that. Of course, what did honor matter now? After deaths numbering in the hundreds of thousands? After the burning of Cairhien and the scouring of Illian? It had been twenty years since the Seanchan had gained the Andoran war machines. The Aiel had been tumbling toward defeat for decades; it was a testament to their tenacious nature that they had lasted so long.

...

"No," Ronam said. "No, that would have destroyed us. Our fathers knew nothing of steamhorses or dragon tubes. Were the Aiel to return to the Waste, we would have become irrelevant. The world would pass us by, and we would vanish as a people."

Weird Harold
01-08-2011, 04:29 PM
Aviendha had never even heard about the things, as far as we know. Neither had the WOs who send her to Rhuidean. So there would not seem to be any reason why they would have been included in her visions at all, based on most of the considered human suspects.

Aviendha would have seen the Steamwagons Rand encountered in Tear in KoD, or could have seen them almost anywhere, as they seem to be spreading fairly quickly -- far quicker than the technology spread in the real world, in fact.

Me, I think that it was something like the alternative lives Rand et al. had in TGH when they used the Portal Stone to go to Falme.

I agree, Aviendha's second pass throughthe Galss Columns is very much like the repeated alternate lives during the Portal Stone transit to Falme -- a transit guided by Verin's suggestions.

If Verin is a clear suspect in one incident of improbable, shadow-favorable, alternate history, why does that clear her (or her associates/commanders) of being involved in a similar shadow favorable "alternate history?"

Weird Harold
01-08-2011, 04:34 PM
Maybe, but on the other hand:
Thanks. I was thinking of the earlier (later in timeline) weapons used in the first couple of visions before they got back to the Dragon Children's involvement.

Theris
02-18-2011, 03:41 PM
Mat Cauthon's People according the Aelfinn are the Jenn Aiel, whom followed the ways of the Da'Shain Aiel.

What? No they aren't. You're making things up.

He asks them whether he should go home to help his people, and they respond that he must go to Rhuidean. They also later explain that if he does NOT go to Rhuidean, he will die. If he dies, then Rand cannot win TG. And thus, his people would be harmed (what with the end of the world and all).

Hence, he must go to Rhuidean to help his people. Not that he is somehow an Aiel that does not come close to resembling any Aielman. Nor is he, in any way, He Who Comes With the Dawn. "He" is a singular pronoun, in case you were having questions about that. The prophecy is not for "They Who Come With the Dawn." Plus the fact that he fulfills literally no other prophecy about He Who Comes With the Dawn, other than coming out of Rhuidean at dawn. If "coming with the dawn" is all that matters, then Couladin was also He Who Comes with the Dawn, since he DID come with the dawn to the Golden Bowl.

Spasmodean
02-18-2011, 05:33 PM
A few random points that stick out on this thread to me, in no particular order.

1. "Our prophecy says only that the Stone must fall before He Who Comes With the Dawn appears to take us back to what was ours."

So what do the Aiel consider theirs that will be taken back?

2. The Aiel were never conquered by Hawkwing, were never part of his Empire.
Are the Seanchan going to acknowledge them as a separate people or nation? Or are they going to pursue a rabid war of endless expansion?
The vision Avi had suggested that they had made a deal with Shara to stop the Aiel leaving through the Eastern border of the Waste - so I'm not 100% sure what policy they would follow.

3. My own pet theory now. Avi will confront the Empress in order to bring about the desired result.

FelixPax
02-18-2011, 07:35 PM
What? No they aren't. You're making things up.

Your utterly clueless. :p
And a bald face LIER! :mad:



Who did the Maidens accept as one of their own in the Stone? Mat Cauthon. How? Maiden's Kiss.
Who did the Maidens surround and protect from the Shiado Aiel at the Golden Bowl? Mat Cauthon.
What do the Maidens do differently than other Aiel Clans? Sing songs, enjoy flowers, and make Men sing.
Who entered and exited Rhuidean at Dawn with Rand al'Thor? Mat Cauthon.
Who did Windfinder Dorile din Eiran Long Feather & Clan Mistress Malin din Toral Breaking Wave each claim was associated with finding the Bowls of Winds? The Coramoor.
Who claimed Mat Cauthon was the root cause & reason for actually finding the Bowl of Winds? Elayne.




Who originally "suggested" that Elayne, Nynaeve, Aviendha use Mat Cauthon to find the Bowl of Winds? Birgitte.
Who knows Elayne is to wed in the future Mat Cauthon? Birgitte.
Who has a gained a "Promise", stating Aviendha WILL follow her commands as if she is an apprentice to a master? Birgitte.
Who knows who Valan Luca REALLY IS? Birgitte.
Who knows else KNOWS the importance of Valan Luca? Amys, Bair, Melaine and Seana too before she died.
What has Valan Luca sought for YEARS? The Songs of the lost Da'Shain Aiel--the Jenn Aiel.




Who made an Bargain with the Coramoor? Renaile din Calon Blue Star.
What did that Bargain include? Protecting Elayne at all costs.

Who freed the Sea Folk Windfinders & Peoples from the chains of the Seanchan Empire? The Coramoor, Mat Cauthon.

Who in essence SAVED the Kin as an organization from the Seanchan Empire's a'dam? The Coramoor, Mat Cauthon.

Who has repeated SAVED Elayne's life? Mat Cauthon, in the Stone from the Black Ajah and Be'lal; then once again from the Gholam in the Rahad.





Who will GUARANTEE Elayne's freedom, safety & life in the FUTURE?

A man with the titles: He Who Comes With the Dawn, The Coramoor, Lord General Commander, Lord Dragon--one Mat Cauthon.

Who has created the DESIRE of men to follow his leadership? Mat Cauthon.

Terez
02-18-2011, 09:03 PM
You are crazy, Felix. Just saying.

GonzoTheGreat
02-20-2011, 06:41 AM
Who did the Maidens accept as one of their own in the Stone? Mat Cauthon. How? Maiden's Kiss.And who else is a true Aiel, and hence the Dragon Reborn?
"If you wish," Perrin said, stepping away from the group. To the side, several of the other Wise Ones came forward and told Neald it was their turn to try the circle with him. They didn't act at all as if Neald were in charge, and he was quick to obey. He'd been walking lightly around the Aiel since he'd said something a little too frisky to a Maiden and ended up playing Maiden's Kiss.Or perhaps you're jumping a bit too enthusiastically to conclusions.

FelixPax
02-20-2011, 07:59 AM
And who else is a true Aiel, and hence the Dragon Reborn?

Laugh, is that a proposal that Fager Neald is the Dragon? Or only that Fager Neald was adopted as an Aiel?



Or perhaps you're jumping a bit too enthusiastically to conclusions.

Me, jumping to conclusions? Never! :D

Why you shouldn't be asking Terez, about her revised Gawyn Will Kill Rand al'Thor theory? It's a half-baked honeycake! Which is as tasty and healthy for one's colon, as Siuan & Moiraine's cooking in New Spring book. ;)


"Rumors" are a wonderful thing, in WoT series, Gonzo... please do check'em all out. Altara rumors in particular the Red Hands picked up. Rumors that Tuon likely heard about, later in Ebou Dar.


Mat Cauthon is to be "Lord Dragon", after Rand al'Thor leaves the scene (dies, lives again)for a new private life, on an distant island beach near the equator.


Gawyn did once say that Elayne should pick a husband who's native stock was of Two Rivers (tEotW)... that man is to be Mat Cauthon (AMoL prediction).

Rand al'Fain
02-20-2011, 12:46 PM
You are crazy, Felix. Just saying.

I'd say that is the understatement of the day.

Weiramon
02-22-2011, 03:03 PM
One should not judge another based on their words or deeds.





Rather, on the station they were born into.

GonzoTheGreat
02-22-2011, 03:41 PM
But if you weren't born in a bus station, then how should you be judged?

Theris
02-28-2011, 04:24 PM
Rubbish and nonsense, and then he called me a "lier," which I take it means liar.

Is this... for real? Wow. Okay, since you seem to need it, I'll first point out the actual ways we can identify the Dragon Reborn, from the Karaethon Cycle. Warning: long.

On the slopes of Dragonmount shall he be born,
born of a maiden wedded to no man.

Mat Cauthon was born in Emond's Field to Abell and Natti Cauthon. His mother was not a "maiden," either in the normal definition (that is, an unmarried/virgin girl) or the special definition (Far Dareis Mai). And, just in case you need it said, Emond's Field is not the slopes of Dragonmount, nor is it even close to Dragonmount.

He will be of the ancient blood, and raised by the old blood.

Mat is of the old blood, that is the blood of Manetheren. Not the "ancient blood," which in this context is the blood of the Aiel (hence why Rand was able to trace himself right back to the Aiel in the Age of Legends). Even if Manetheren is the "ancient blood" here, it wouldn't then be the old blood - there would be no point in referring to the same thing in two different ways.

Twice and twice shall he be marked,
twice to live, and twice to die.
Once the heron, to set his path.
Twice the heron, to name him true.
Once the Dragon, for remembrance lost.
Twice the Dragon, for the price he must pay.

Mat has neither herons nor Dragons marked anywhere - his sigil is the raven and the Red Hand. Rand, however, has two dragons, and had two herons until one hand was cut off. Thus having lived up to prophecy. Again. While Mat didn't. Again.

Five ride forth, and four return.
Above the Watchers Over the Waves shall he proclaim himself,
bannered ‘cross the sky in fire.

Five rode into Falme. Lord Ingtar Shinowa died there, so only four returned. And Rand's fight with Ishamael was writ large in the sky, and seen simultaneously in multiple parts of the world apparently. Not Mat, but Rand. Thus, Rand was proclaimed "bannered across the sky."

The Stone of Tear will never fall, till Callandor is wielded by the Dragon’s hand.
The Stone of Tear will never fall, till the People of the Dragon come.

Rand wielded Callandor. Mat did not. That was easy.

Into the heart he thrusts his sword,
into the heart, to hold their hearts.
who draws it out shall follow after,
What hand can grasp that fearful blade?

While it's still uncertain who "follows after" (whether it's Narishma or not), we do know that it was Rand who thrust the sword into the Heart of the Stone to hold the hearts of the Tairens.

Power of the Shadow made human flesh,
wakened to turmoil, strife and ruin.
The Reborn One, marked and bleeding,
dances the sword in dreams and mist,
chains the Shadowsworn to his will,
from the city, lost and forsaken,
leads the spears to war once more,
breaks the spears and makes them see,
truth long hidden in the ancient dream.

Rand chained Asmodean to his will in Rhuidean (lost and forsaken), and from there he led the spears of the Aiel to war. He was the one who saw the truth long hidden in the ancient dream (the truth of the history of the Aiel, as shown by the glass columned ter'angreal), and then showed that truth to the Aiel, many of whom broke their spears at the revelation. Not Mat.

He shall slay his people with the sword of peace, and destroy them with the leaf.

Yup, that was Rand as well - at least, destroying the Aiel with the leaf (this arguably has not happened yet - some hold that the Aiel will return to the Way after the wars, and the destruction would be the destruction of their way of life).

There can be no health in us, nor any good thing grow,
for the land is one with the Dragon Reborn, and he is one with the land.
Soul of fire, heart of stone, in pride he conquers, forcing the proud to yield.
He calls upon the mountains to kneel, and the seas to give way, and the very skies to bow.
Pray that the heart of stone remembers tears, and the soul of fire, love.

Let's see - we see that the land is tied to Rand - when he becomes dark, the twisting of the Pattern becomes solely dark. When he finally ascends, he makes the land bountiful and good in the face of the Dark One's touch. Oh, and let's not forget that it was remembering about love - and his/LTT's understanding that they did not want to fail their beloved this time - that turned Rand from evil Rand to the golden boy he is now. Also, let's note that none of this relates to Mat, in any way.

As the plow breaks the earth shall he break the lives of men,
and all that was shall be consumed in the fire of his eyes.
The trumpets of war shall sound at his footsteps, the ravens feed at his voice,
and he shall wear a crown of swords. [14]

Master of the lightnings, rider on the storm,
wearer of a crown of swords, spinner out of fate.
Who thinks he turns the Wheel of Time,
may learn the truth too late.

Let's see - Rand is a master of the lightnings, in that he can "call the lightning," to quote the Aiel, and channel as a weapon. And he wears the crown of swords, the crown of Illian. Not Mat.

He shall heal the wounds of madness and cutting of hope.

Rand healed the taint of saidar, arguably the "wound of madness." Possibly even the cutting of hope. Regardless, Mat has not done any such thing.

The north shall he tie to the east, and the west shall be bound to the south.

By conquering Tear, Cairhien, Andor and Illian, and getting the support of the Borderlands, he has easily tied the north to the east. The west and the south "shall be bound," not necessarily by him - and the Seanchan took care of this. Hence, another prophecy fulfilled by Rand, and not by Mat.

Yeah, so basically the book says one thing, and you look at capes and your own interpretation of things as counterproof. Which is silly, at best. Like... since when is playing "maiden's kiss" meaning that the Maidens accept you as one of their own? Are you saying that the Maidens kiss eachother to accept eachother into their society? Because there is zero proof of this, and it's something you're making up.

nameless
02-28-2011, 05:50 PM
The way I figure it there's a decent chance that a lot of the Foretellings that are thought to be exclusively about Rand could actually be about Rand, Mat, and Perrin. If you're standing a long ways away on a dark night it can be hard to tell the difference between one big light source and three little light sources that are all bunched together. How hard would it be to pick out one ta'veren among 3 from 3,000 years away?

Theris
03-01-2011, 12:51 AM
Because Foretelling, as we've seen, isn't done like that. It's not like the Foreteller sits there watching a magic TV that shows the events that are going to happen and writes them down - every example of Foretelling we've seen (Gitara, Elaida, Nicola) are all done in a trance-like and poetic fashion. Just like the Karaethon Cycle.

So what we have to go by are the words themselves - and while parts in them arguably might *refer* to others (for example, it refers to the Dark One, and to the Aiel, and others), every description of what the Dragon will do is fulfilled by Rand. And Rand alone. The oft-repeated "he will take the Stone of Tear" isn't true - the correct reading is that the Stone won't fall until he wields Callandor. Which happened - he didn't coordinate with the Aiel, but they just *happened* to take the Stone when he wielded Callandor. And just happened to secretly call themselves the People of the Dragon.

When Taim told Rand that he himself might have been the one, Rand replied that Taim had not been born on the slopes of Dragonmount, and hence had already failed the prophecy. Taim replied something to the effect of "history is written by the winner, and if I had won then the histories would have shown me being born on the slopes of Dragonmount to a woman having never known the touch of a man" (that is, the traditional definition of "maiden"). However, Rand did not need to "fake" the history - he WAS born on the slopes of Dragonmount, to an unwed Maiden. Mat and Perrin are not the Dragon. They are the fulfillment of prophecies in their own right, but *not* the Dragon Reborn.

Felix's ignoring the canon to make up rather bad storylines of his own notwithstanding, of course.

Seth Baker
03-01-2011, 01:34 AM
Or WAS he? A common thread of the Wheel of Time is that rumor and distortion happen. Characters don't speak the truth, they speak the truth as they see it. That's part of why our debates here are so varied; he wrote some things that were absolutely untrue (or partly untrue), just because the characters believed it.

If this is supposed to represent a Fourth Age history of the Third Age, then they're writing it from the perspective that Rand really is the Dragon, and they are forcing all of these things to fit, when Mat actually was the Dragon.

Duh. :P

(Kidding.)

Juan
03-01-2011, 01:54 AM
Haha well Felix would agree since Mat is clearly He Who Comes With The Dawn. Understandably, that doesn't mean he is the Dragon Reborn, but you know, using that logic, you could substitute anything in there. :P

Theris
03-01-2011, 10:50 AM
What can I say? There's a big difference between looking at what's presented and making a theory based on it, and just writing your own story while ignoring the actual presented evidence. No evidence, either in the book or given by the author(s), has ever even hinted that Rand isn't the Dragon Reborn. And yet Felix has, in separate posts, called Mat the Dragon, and said that Rand and Moridin are both "Dragons."

Plus he called me a liar, after a fashion. Can't just take that one on the chin, can I?

Juan
03-01-2011, 11:01 AM
Hahaha, it's cool, Theris. Don't worry about it. It's all in good fun.

Theris
03-01-2011, 11:16 AM
I don't take anything personally from someone with that avatar. Best cartoon ever (possibly, though Gargoyles was also amazing).

Juan
03-01-2011, 11:23 AM
What is the best cartoon ever? I hope you are referring to my avatar, because Batman the Animated Series from the 90s was pure badass.

skaywalker
03-01-2011, 11:49 AM
Theris don't worry. You'll get used to Felix's crazyness.... With time and experience.

Terez
03-01-2011, 11:53 AM
I recommend reading Felix's posts because he will point out some things that you missed. (He points out things that I missed fairly regularly, if that means anything to you.) I don't, however, recommend arguing with him unless you are just really bored. (It happens.)

Theris
03-01-2011, 12:30 PM
What is the best cartoon ever? I hope you are referring to my avatar, because Batman the Animated Series from the 90s was pure badass.

Absolutely I am. Classic cartoon - Harley Quinn? Amazing background Mr. Freeze? The Grey Ghost? Just awesome.

But Gargoyles also rocked beyond words. Look for it if you never saw it.

But yeah - I read a bunch of his posts before posting, and I finally only posted because it had gotten a bit over the top. I do agree that he sees things that might be missed, Terez - a different POV is always welcome. Lord knows I don't know everything. But that doesn't mean I won't take part in a good, old-fashioned forum debate =D

Terez
03-01-2011, 12:40 PM
Oh, arguing with Felix is nothing like a good old-fashioned forum debate. It's more like playing ring around the rosy.

Theris
03-01-2011, 01:03 PM
Oh, arguing with Felix is nothing like a good old-fashioned forum debate. It's more like playing ring around the rosy.

Ahahahahaha touche.

FelixPax
03-02-2011, 07:35 PM
No evidence, either in the book or given by the author(s), has ever even hinted that Rand isn't the Dragon Reborn.

You need to pay better attention....


Did I ever claim Mat Cauthon would be called the "Dragon Reborn" specifically?

No, not once.


What do I claim Mat Cauthon has already been called in the past, and will be called in the near future in the dawn of Fourth Age?

"Lord Dragon".
Not the Dragon Reborn. The Lord Dragon.


Remember what the Band of Red Hand was told to do, when the Shiado Aiel Clan Chief was closing upon Mat Cauthon army in Cairhien? "Protect the Lord Dragon".

. “As soon as we can see the Shaido, we’ll retreat just as fast as we can, almost back to the gap between these two hills, then turn to face them.”

“They will think we wanted to run, realized we could not, and turned at bay like a bear to the hounds. Seeing us less than half their number and fighting only because we must, they should think to roll over us. Can we but hold their attention until the horse comes down on them from behind . . . ” The Cairhienin actually grinned. “It is using the Aiel’s own tactics against them.”

“We had better hold their bloody attention.” Mat’s tone was as dry as he was wet. “To make sure we do—to make sure they don’t start putting loops around our flanks—I want a cry raised as soon as you stop the retreat. ‘Protect the Lord Dragon.’ ” This time Daerid laughed aloud.


The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 44 "The Lessor Sadness" -- Mat Cauthon point of view

Yup, Mat Cauthon play the part of 'Lord Dragon' here... he's leading this engagement.



Who has mentioned Rand's title as the "Lord Dragon", instead of the "Dragon Reborn"?


Estean, Talmanes, Reimon, Edorion, Baran, Carlomin, Berelain, Perrin, Thom, Egwene, Sunamon, Meilan, Carleon, Tedosian, Defenders of the Stone, Alteima, Torean, Domon, Masema, Kadere, Keille(Mierin really), Moiraine, Natael(Asmodean really), Meresin, Daricain, Uno, Queen Alliandre, Weiramon, Kin Tovere, Mat Cauthon, Melanril, Daerid, Nalesean, Dobraine, Maringil, Meilan, Colavaere, Aviendha,Davram Bashere, Elenia,Karind, Lord Lir,Lord Nasin,Taim, Jur Grady, Damer Flinn, Sunamon,Hearne, Simaan, Estanda, Lord Luan, Dyelin, Havien Nurelle, Idrien, Fionnda,, Maraconn, Anaiyella, Gueyam, Aracome,Bari, Mistress Harfor, Sulin, Perwyn Belman,Vilnar Barada, Faile, Min, Dannil,Bera Harkin,Aram, Ban, Narishma, Dashiva (Osan'gar... is this enough proof? I can go on...:D


Who hasn't called Rand the Lord Dragon of all individuals?

Nynaeve al'Meara.

It took Nynaeve a moment to realize that he was explaining why their weapons had been taken. “But you are his friends,” she protested. “You all followed Rand to Falme together.” She was not about to start calling him the Lord Dragon.


The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 39 "Encounters in Samara" - Nynaeve point of view; with Uno, Ragan



Who does not expect to wed the Lord Dragon (Rand)?

Berelain. Just as she once too rejected the idea of wedding Mat Cauthon (Lord Dragon), because well he's too much like her (Hawkwing's blood).




And yet Felix has, in separate posts, called Mat the Dragon, and said that Rand and Moridin are both "Dragons."

Yes.
So?

Moridin has a Black Mountain; Rand has Dragonmount for a Mountain; and Mat Cauthon to be the public face of "Lord Dragon" in the Fourth Age. (Predictions) Moridin will be dead by then; Rand will live forever, a private life under sunny tropical skies in the tropics. The masses in world will forget about Moridin, Rand...in the Fourth Age.


(Non-WoT Sources) Northern Slavic mythology does have a four-headed Dragon stories, which does fit WoT series.


Just like Estonian oral literature had a tale of Four Maidens marrying Perun. In the case of WoT, that Rand marrying Aviendha, Elayne, Min, and Mierin.


Many of the major character's carry the weapons of Perun as well:

Mat Cauthon; Perrin; Rand al'Thor; Valan Luca; Birgitte; Mierin as Silvie et al.


Plus he called me a liar, after a fashion. Can't just take that one on the chin, can I?

Claiming I made stuff up? Yes, that's a bald face lie. Hence your a liar. Definitions are wonderful aren't they? :p

Theris
03-03-2011, 08:30 AM
Bright Colors, in particular Red Coats, Red Dresses, Red Cloaks & Capes are connection to Tuatha'an characters, or ex-Tuatha'an characters. Like Aram, Valan Luca, Rendra et la.

Made up - Valan and Rendra have never been revealed to be ex-Tinkers. Their clothes are described as "garish" in the Tuatha'an fashion because that is the reference point for the Westlands - for example, we can say someone is "fast as a leopard" without implying that they are, actually, a leopard.

Mat Cauthon's People according the Aelfinn are the Jenn Aiel, whom followed the ways of the Da'Shain Aiel.

Made up - nowhere did the Aelfinn say "the Da'Shain Aiel are your people," so to attribute the claim to them is a lie. Mat asked whether he should return home to save his people, and they replied that he must go to Rhuidean. And, in fact, they *explained* it - if he did not go to Rhuidean then he would die, and we have been told numerous times throughout the series that Rand will fail without Mat and Perrin. Which would mean the end of his people. The latter is an explanation, not a fact - but it IS a fact that the Aelfinn did not say what you try to attribute to them.

Who did the Maidens accept as one of their own in the Stone? Mat Cauthon. How? Maiden's Kiss.

Made up - we are never led to believe that Maiden's Kiss is how Maidens "accept as one of their own." We see many people play Maiden's Kiss, not just Mat - he isn't even the only Wetlander to do so. You give the game attributes and importance that are not given by the series.

Who knows Elayne is to wed in the future Mat Cauthon? Birgitte.

Made up - again, this is nowhere hinted at in the books. Using conjecture as evidence for further conjecture would get you laughed out of a debate, but just because this is the Internet doesn't mean you aren't making things up.

What has Valan Luca sought for YEARS? The Songs of the lost Da'Shain Aiel--the Jenn Aiel.

Made up - again, this is one of your own theories that you are trying to use as evidence for another theory. Nowhere is Valan Luca made out to be a Tinker, save for the fact that he wears bright colors, specifically colors "bright/garish enough for a Tinker," as a commonly-understood reference point in the Westlands. Honestly, it's my favorite example of an in-universe reference point that we can understand: RJ spent the time describing the Tinkers, so afterwards when something is said to be "bright enough for a Tinker," we can understand the ramifications of that (including the negative connotation). As opposed to things like "shay dancers," which could mean anything.

Who freed the Sea Folk Windfinders & Peoples from the chains of the Seanchan Empire? The Coramoor, Mat Cauthon.

Made up - you make the leap to Mat being the Coramoor, which is not supported by facts but rather by your own conjecture. This goes for your remaining "facts," into each of which you just randomly slip in titles for Mat. The only one he has is general, and even that is more likely a "banner general" or probably "marshal general."

Oh, and just to be clear:

Did I ever claim Mat Cauthon would be called the "Dragon Reborn" specifically?

No, not once.

Now, you're openly lying. From an earlier post in this same thread:

As it deals with "Sin", a theme a kin to "Aiel Sin", which Urien mentions to both Perrin, Mat Cauthon (TDR). (Also highlighting a tree, serpent, apple, wagon et la)

TDR = The Dragon Reborn. Just because you have such hare-brained ideas that you can't keep track of them doesn't make me the liar. In fact, when you say something, then later claim you didn't say it... that makes you the liar.

Grig
03-03-2011, 11:16 AM
Now, you're openly lying. From an earlier post in this same thread:

...

TDR = The Dragon Reborn. Just because you have such hare-brained ideas that you can't keep track of them doesn't make me the liar. In fact, when you say something, then later claim you didn't say it... that makes you the liar.

TDR is also a book title. Maybe it sounds familiar? He could have intended that as a weak citation. Although I do feel the need to note that the section he is referencing actually took place in TGH.

I am with Terez, though. Read Felix's posts for potential things that other people might overlook, but there's really no point in arguing. You just run in circles.

Seth Baker
03-03-2011, 11:12 PM
I am with Terez, though. Read Felix's posts for potential things that other people might overlook, but there's really no point in arguing. You just run in circles.

He appears to have great observational skills with absolutely no critical thinking skills to go along with them.

The real question is whether he realizes that his theories have absolutely no grounds in reason, and doesn't care; doesn't realize that they have no basis in reason; or realizes that they have no grounds in reason, and is intentionally making things up to troll everyone. :confused:

Juan
03-03-2011, 11:58 PM
Felix does have critical thinking skills. It's just that he's extremely creative in putting forth his insane hypothesis. They're entertaining to read even if I don't agree with it.

I do love teasing Felix, though. In fact, I'm going to do that right now in a thread I created for ridiculous theories... hahaha.

Seth Baker
03-04-2011, 12:16 AM
Felix does have critical thinking skills. It's just that he's extremely creative in putting forth his insane hypothesis. They're entertaining to read even if I don't agree with it.

I do love teasing Felix, though. In fact, I'm going to do that right now in a thread I created for ridiculous theories... hahaha.

Maybe it's that I've been broken by education in political science, philsophy, and now in law (and legal writing), but logic leaps drive me absolutely bonkers. So when I'm reading his theories, I want to bash my head against something hard until the pain stops. I like interesting "what ifs," just not when they're stated as fact. :(

Juan
03-04-2011, 12:29 AM
Hahaha don't let it get to you, that's just the way he writes. Check out my other thread I just posted in. I think I did a decent job of emulating the way he writes and asks questions... except that I didn't supply any quotes.

FelixPax
03-04-2011, 06:33 PM
He appears to have great observational skills with absolutely no critical thinking skills to go along with them.

You lack poetry skills as well... and don't know a thing about me.


Ever read Ovid's Metamorphoses?
Let alone analyse it?


You might want to re-examine the Wheel of Time series once again, before typing utterly clueless observations and making foolish claims.


How a person dresses in the Wheel of Time matters. Why? It shows & explains that individuals place within a given group, society or nation. Dress & Clothing in the Wheel of Time universe, does not have a Modern 21st century meaning to it.


Obviously someone has never put all the pieces together of where Valan Luca has gone, why he went where he went, what is motivations are, nor who he is.

There are in fact multiple clues about Valan Luca and the people he has met, given in the very first book in the series.


Separately, when the publisher of the series is a fan of a major character, that should tell you immediately about the series in question. Who is Tor's publisher a fan of?

Mat Cauthon.

GonzoTheGreat
03-05-2011, 04:32 AM
How a person dresses in the Wheel of Time matters. Why? It shows & explains that individuals place within a given group, society or nation. Dress & Clothing in the Wheel of Time universe, does not have a Modern 21st century meaning to it.And some people may be smart enough to figure that out. So it is possible that Valan Luca chose the colour combinations he wears specifically to fool you into jumping to the wrong conclusion.
How's that for a loony theory? :p

Seth Baker
03-06-2011, 12:39 AM
You cannot deconstruct literature to this degree. Well, you can, but it's piss-poor for predicting the future of a story. Even authors, like Robert Jordan, who consciously incorporate aspects of mythology and religion; who intentionally leave hints for careful readers throughout a text, nonetheless must craft a believable, diverse world. In so doing, they will be forced to describe things in ways that, with enough inference, could look like intentional clues, even when they are not.

You draw a presumption that Valan Luca is a Tinker because his clothing is described as "bright enough for a Tinker." There is a simple explanation to that. That a showman, what we'd call a Ringmaster of a circus, with his innate sense of showmanship, would dress in an eye-catching manner. There is also a complex explanation for that. In short, yours. You presuppose that Robert Jordan's desire to foreshadow using clothing is so all-encompassing that he would never allow his fantastical world to include a brightly dressed person, and would allude to that style using Tinker dress in a simile.

In the real world, you cannot pick apart EVERY little literary description to figure out where it's going. You have to use common sense.

Neither of us is going to win a fight. You'll insist I'm blind, and I'll insist that you've lost touch with reality. But I'll make a bet with you. Loser has to make a thread begging the other's pardon upon the release of AMoL, if he's wrong.

I wager that upon the premises that:
(i) Valan Luca is not Tuatha'an;
(ii) Valan Luca will not find the Song.
(iii) Mat Cauthon is not He Who Comes With The Dawn;
(iv) Mat Cauthon is not the Coramoor.
(v) All of the hypotheses in your signature are wrong, except for the Moghedien hypothesis.

Will you accept, and we can table this fruitless argument until then?

GonzoTheGreat
03-06-2011, 04:38 AM
You draw a presumption that Valan Luca is a Tinker because his clothing is described as "bright enough for a Tinker." There is a simple explanation to that. That a showman, what we'd call a Ringmaster of a circus, with his innate sense of showmanship, would dress in an eye-catching manner. There is also a complex explanation for that. In short, yours. You presuppose that Robert Jordan's desire to foreshadow using clothing is so all-encompassing that he would never allow his fantastical world to include a brightly dressed person, and would allude to that style using Tinker dress in a simile.In short: either Valan Luca is a Tinker, or he is Lady Gaga. :D