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sheikh chilli
11-29-2010, 07:15 PM
Would the sealing have been sucessful? or would the dark one tainted saidar as well in addition to saidin?

Kimon
11-29-2010, 07:28 PM
Would the sealing have been sucessful? or would the dark one tainted saidar as well in addition to saidin?

Why not just ask if Egwene is right to stonewall Rand, the questions are essentially one and the same.

David Selig
11-29-2010, 07:30 PM
Would the sealing have been sucessful? or would the dark one tainted saidar as well in addition to saidin?
Saidar would've been tainted too, RJ said so.

sheikh chilli
11-29-2010, 07:39 PM
Saidar would've been tainted too, RJ said so.

where?

sythmaster
11-29-2010, 07:51 PM
where?

Q: Why saidin, why not saidar, was tainted?
RJ: Because there were only men in the party that made up the party that made up the Strike at Shayol Ghul, that were setting the seals. In the act of setting the seals, there was a backblast that affected the people doing this. As I pointed out in something…I wrote a piece called The Strike at Shayol Ghul…there was a great division at the time – I don’t know if all of you have read it…or have none of you read it?
Qs: Yes, yes.
RJ: Okay, then you know about the political struggles that were going on, and the different plans to try and end the War of the Shadow, and seal up the….and why various groups thought that one plan or the other was the best way to go. And in the end, what resulted was the so-called “Fatal Covenant”16 , which had the female Aes Sedai swearing not to go along with Lews Therin’s plan, that they would not support it. The result of this was that Lews Therin carried out his plan with only male Aes Sedai, so there were only male Aes Sedai channeling there, which was a lucky thing, because if there’d been women as well, then both saidin and saidar would have been tainted. And his plan worked, except for that one side effect of the backblast which tainted saidin and caused him and the men there with him to go mad there and then, and other male Aes Sedai to go mad slowly as they touched the Source and began to absorb bits of the taint. But that’s why saidar was not tainted, because there were only men there channeling during this act of sealing up the Dark One’s prison.

looks like it was an interview given in 2003, taken from "The Shadow, Darkfriends, and Shadowspawn" document from the Interview Database.

arioch
11-29-2010, 07:53 PM
where?

https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dcjspjqg_101f6s22v73&hl=en

Go hog wild.

Kimon
11-29-2010, 07:53 PM
Saidar would've been tainted too, RJ said so.

Budapest Q&A - April 2003

Q: Why saidin, why not saidar, was tainted?
RJ: Because there were only men in the party that made up the party that made up the Strike at Shayol Ghul, that were setting the seals. In the act of setting the seals, there was a backblast that affected the people doing this. As I pointed out in something…I wrote a piece called The Strike at Shayol Ghul…there was a great division at the time – I don’t know if all of you have read it…or have none of you read it?
Qs: Yes, yes.
RJ: Okay, then you know about the political struggles that were going on, and the different plans to try and end the War of the Shadow, and seal up the….and why various groups thought that one plan or the other was the best way to go. And in the end, what resulted was the so-called “Fatal Covenant” [It was actually the “Fateful Concord” – Terez], which had the female Aes Sedai swearing not to go along with Lews Therin’s plan, that they would not support it. The result of this was that Lews Therin carried out his plan with only male Aes Sedai, so there were only male Aes Sedai channeling there, which was a lucky thing, because if there’d been women as well, then both saidin and saidar would have been tainted. And his plan worked, except for that one side effect of the backblast which tainted saidin and caused him and the men there with him to go mad there and then, and other male Aes Sedai to go mad slowly as they touched the Source and began to absorb bits of the taint. But that’s why saidar was not tainted, because there were only men there channeling during this act of sealing up the Dark One’s prison.



I assume that this is what you are referring to, and admittedly, this phrasing is potentially problematic. If he is speaking literally then apparently Rand's plan is doomed, and if carried out both saidin and saidar will be corrupted.

But is that what this means, or should I say is that what RJ meant to imply. He said that the women refused, and as such Lews Therin carried out his plan with men only, which was fortunate, "because if there’d been women as well, then both saidin and saidar would have been tainted". But does he mean that this would have resulted if just a few women had come along with him (say like Nynaeve, Moiraine, and Cadsuane), while the rest told him to piss off (Egwene et aliae). Or does it really mean that this would have still resulted if they all agreed to help him, and he was able to employ functional circles rather than just individual channelers? If the latter, then apparently Rand's plan, of using Callandor with Nynaeve and some other woman, is very bad news.

In any case, there must be some way for humans to reseal away the DO without leaving one or both tainted. Unless you really believe that it is possible to kill the DO.

He definitely didn't use Callandor last time. So that at least will be different. Maybe that is the only required difference. But then, some of you don't seem to want him to use Callandor to do this. Heck some of you want him to just be a bystander while Moiraine KOs the DO.

Edit: Apparently in the time in which I was writing up my commentary on this several others beat me to the mention...

budgemano
11-29-2010, 07:57 PM
I think you are assuming Rand is planning to do the same thing again. If he were, then yes Egwene is right (though for the wrong reasons). In reality, Rand now realizes that he needs Saidin and Saidar, and he needs to figure out some other way to seal the DO without touching either power to him.

Kimon
11-29-2010, 07:59 PM
I think you are assuming Rand is planning to do the same thing again. If he were, then yes Egwene is right (though for the wrong reasons). In reality, Rand now realizes that he needs Saidin and Saidar, and he needs to figure out some other way to seal the DO without touching either power to him.

I think that Callandor is the difference.

Terez
11-29-2010, 08:00 PM
I assume that this is what you are referring to, and admittedly, this phrasing is potentially problematic. If he is speaking literally then apparently Rand's plan is doomed, and if carried out both saidin and saidar will be corrupted.
What plan was that?

Kimon
11-29-2010, 08:17 PM
What plan was that?

Well we do have two hints at his plan.

1. Clearing the rubble - breaking the remaining seals before forming them anew.

2. Using Callandor in a circle with two other women - one of whom he intends to be Nynaeve, the other he hasn't decided upon yet. Moiraine would seem the most viable candidate.

Along with those, the second of which may or may not involve the resealing process, we know that he intends the confrontation to occur at Shayol Ghul. The remaining wild card is how Moiraine will be of importance in his victory. We still don't really know any of her questions or answers of the Aelfinn, and only know of one of her three wishes from the Eelfinn. Presumably those are important, but the question remains how, and also, were any of her questions of bearing for the end game, or did those involve things that have already come to pass.

sythmaster
11-29-2010, 08:18 PM
If the latter, then apparently Rand's plan, of using Callandor with Nynaeve and some other woman, is very bad news.


Aha! Rand may be counting on that, and then when the DO goes to taint both sides... He'll use Callandor as a sword, stabbing Fain with it. And then Fain becomes another Shadar Logoth Funnel through which the unbuffered, and increased tainted One Power can flow, then right back into the DO.

Quite a devious feedback loop....

Though one question.... if Rand is in a linked circle using Callandor, with one of the women directing the flows. Can he separately, and at the same time, channel the True Power?

Terez
11-29-2010, 08:38 PM
Along with those, the second of which may or may not involve the resealing process, we know that he intends the confrontation to occur at Shayol Ghul.
How clever of him.

yasiru89
11-29-2010, 08:51 PM
Lews Therin mentioned that something was needed to touch to the Dark One and this is what allowed him to taint saidin- I'm in the Mashadar as a buffer between the Dark One and saidin and saidar camp. An attempt at tainting would simply result in what happened at Shadar Logoth and destroy both taint and Mashadar. It's an instant thing so this is the obvious way about it. My only fear is that it's too obvious- especially in where Callandor comes in. The thing is related to prophecy, but apparently just has a manufacturing defect, which explains the temporary insanity bit. Why it needs a woman melding the flows is another good question.

On the original topic, saidar would have been tainted as well, but the female Aes Sedai seemed to have been ready to wait it out for their miracle keys while the Shadow swept over the land. And given the Dark One is a source of a Pattern-unravelling kind of Power himself, my guess is the Choedan Kal wouldn't have worked on him- even to contain him.

finn
11-29-2010, 09:00 PM
Aha! Rand may be counting on that, and then when the DO goes to taint both sides... He'll use Callandor as a sword, stabbing Fain with it. And then Fain becomes another Shadar Logoth Funnel through which the unbuffered, and increased tainted One Power can flow, then right back into the DO.

Quite a devious feedback loop....Or he could simply bind Fain and/or his dagger with the Power at the Pit of Doom and use them as the focus point(s) for the seal to touch the Dark One.

Though one question.... if Rand is in a linked circle using Callandor, with one of the women directing the flows. Can he separately, and at the same time, channel the True Power?Possibly yes. A Domination band is like being in a circle with the leash holder in command right? Rand could wield the True Power against Semirhage.

jana
11-29-2010, 09:07 PM
like others have said, both halves would have been tainted.

The problem wasn't just the women not joining, it was the actual plan. Rand will have a better plan this time, and women to help him.

yasiru89
11-29-2010, 09:15 PM
If the Dark One actually allowed Rand to wield the True Power (by taking a gambit on turning him at the end- which nearly happened), then the True Power is out of the question.
It's always seemed dubious in being the essence of the Dark One, it is difficult to imagine the thing being wielded against him in some fashion.
That said, I believe Rand touched it by himself- either through the the connection with Moridin or simply by reaching such a state of torment that he claimed it by right, if not a combination of these.

sythmaster
11-29-2010, 09:50 PM
Possibly yes. A Domination band is like being in a circle with the leash holder in command right? Rand could wield the True Power against Semirhage.

Ah, I should of remembered that part. Thanks.

As to the whole "will saidar/saidin be tainted again?" question. I'm trying to remember.... There's suppose to be 7 ages(?) to the Wheel. And the Age of Legends was started by discovering channeling (I remember seeing this somewhere, but double checking now I can't find where I saw it)...

Assuming we can use Avienda's recent view into the future, channeling is unaffected (or not for all channelers). However, many people (including myself) are hoping that this future can be altered. While it's known that certain things exist in certain ages, while not in others (Ogier for example), can we be certain that channeling will be given a fresh breath of life in the next Age?

Or is something suppose to happen that begins a downward spiral to the Age(s) that do not have channeling?

..this might be out of the scope of this forum topic.... if it is, my bad. I'm still figuring out how much my mind can wander here...

yasiru89
11-29-2010, 11:48 PM
From what I remember RJ saying about channelling, it seems to me that it's something to do mainly with the soul and is accommodated by what body the soul takes during a particular lifetime. Also, considering that the One Power is one of the most important weapons Lightside have against the Shadow, it's unlikely the Pattern will allow it to remain in obscurity while a battle rages.

SixPips
11-30-2010, 01:44 PM
Lews Therin mentioned that something was needed to touch to the Dark One and this is what allowed him to taint saidin- I'm in the Mashadar as a buffer between the Dark One and saidin and saidar camp. An attempt at tainting would simply result in what happened at Shadar Logoth and destroy both taint and Mashadar. It's an instant thing so this is the obvious way about it. My only fear is that it's too obvious- especially in where Callandor comes in. The thing is related to prophecy, but apparently just has a manufacturing defect, which explains the temporary insanity bit. Why it needs a woman melding the flows is another good question.

On the original topic, saidar would have been tainted as well, but the female Aes Sedai seemed to have been ready to wait it out for their miracle keys while the Shadow swept over the land. And given the Dark One is a source of a Pattern-unravelling kind of Power himself, my guess is the Choedan Kal wouldn't have worked on him- even to contain him.

So many people are in the camp of "Mashadar buffering the touch to the Dark One" but in the end that would mean that throughout the infinite cycles of the wheel in the past, Mashadar has manifested every single time to act as a buffer. This means that the evil of mankind is Necessary in and of itself to seal the Dark One away, and that Mashadar, not the Dragon, is the important part of the sealing.

sythmaster
12-01-2010, 01:13 AM
So many people are in the camp of "Mashadar buffering the touch to the Dark One" but in the end that would mean that throughout the infinite cycles of the wheel in the past, Mashadar has manifested every single time to act as a buffer. This means that the evil of mankind is Necessary in and of itself to seal the Dark One away, and that Mashadar, not the Dragon, is the important part of the sealing.

I could be wrong, but wasn't Mashadar called "something new" anyway? It wasn't one of those "things of old" if I recall. Which would help disprove the logic that Mashadar has always been used as a buffer.

yasiru89
12-01-2010, 01:21 AM
So many people are in the camp of "Mashadar buffering the touch to the Dark One" but in the end that would mean that throughout the infinite cycles of the wheel in the past, Mashadar has manifested every single time to act as a buffer. This means that the evil of mankind is Necessary in and of itself to seal the Dark One away, and that Mashadar, not the Dragon, is the important part of the sealing.
Even if not, next time is exactly that- a problem for next time. Plenty of time to procrastinate in the interim- especially since you won't remember much by the time you have to fight again (at least until the Kwisatz Haderach epiphany minus worms, but by then you're so tormented it's hardly a new worry).
Also, I believe that a major underlying theme of this series, through both the events and the imagery like the ancient Aes Sedai symbol (people might say it stands for saidin and saidar channellers, but sometimes present interpretations are useful- and most, at least till recently though the Flame of Tar Valon to stand for the Light, and even if, by Min's viewings, the Dragon's Fang becomes a symbol of hope, it won't detract from what's been wrought- it just gives hope for the future) is balance. So evil is indeed necessary for good to prevail. And not always the obvious and clear evils like the Dark One. This is especially true if this series ends just as if this cycle was another in the long chain, with the Dark One simply sealed away instead of gotten rid of for good.
Besides, what matters is not the tool but the use of it, since even the True Power directly from the Dark One has come in handy.

GonzoTheGreat
12-01-2010, 03:51 AM
I could be wrong, but wasn't Mashadar called "something new" anyway? It wasn't one of those "things of old" if I recall. Which would help disprove the logic that Mashadar has always been used as a buffer.Well, not quite, perhaps:
"He guided us." The hand that pointed to Mat was old and shriveled to scarcely human, lacking a fingernail and with knuckles gnarled like knots in a piece of rope. Mat took a step back, eyes widening. "An old thing, an old friend, an old enemy. But he is not the one we seek," the green-cloaked man finished. The other man stood as if he would never speak.That suggests that the Forsaken (one of them, at least) recognised Mashadar.

morat'corlm
12-01-2010, 04:00 AM
Aginor was somewhat uniquely conscious of Aridhol's fall, however.
- For Dracos, the Forsaken could not talk to one another, not even Balthamel and Aginor, who were trapped near the surface and at least intermittently conscious and aware what was happening in the world. You might say that being trapped where they were, in a Bore that existed everywhere at once, allowed them to see the whole world.