PDA

View Full Version : The Rescue


Sei'taer
11-30-2010, 09:44 PM
I just finished the book, I know, I know, but work has been hell and I haven't had my normal winter lag to read. All in all, it was fairly good.

This has probably been talked about already, but you'll just have to excuse me for being late to the party.

I hated the rescue scene in the Tower of Ghenjei. Totally forced, with a feeling of hurry-up-and-let-me-get-this-written feeling to it. No passion. Moiraine comes out like a schoolgirl. BS had evidently been reading up on Ingtar saving everyone and decided to put it all on Noal/Jain because he couldn't come up with a good way to sacrifice him. Mat getting all sappy about Moiraine, and then the proposal...I yakked in mouth a little. It was the worst part of the book for me. I would rather hear about Elayne in the tub again then hear about a naked, cloak wrapped Moiraine posing for Mat and Thom and getting her raunch on so she could bond Thom and then hunt for Mat. Next thing you know, Caddie will bond Tam.

I have more to gripe about, but I figure I'll read through the threads and post on some of them with my bitching. Have good night all.

Also, I'm cool with Noal kicking out, but why did you have to kill off Hopper? Bastard.

ShadowLord
11-30-2010, 09:53 PM
I've said this before. BWS HAS to finish this in one more book. There just isn't time or space to give it all the profuse verbiage we have come to know from RJ.

Also, how do you know BWS wrote that? Just asking. Not trying to start an argument.

Ozymandias
11-30-2010, 10:22 PM
He had more than enough time for stupid verbiage about dreamspikes, about keeping Graendal alive, and a ton of other stuff. Aside from being short, it wasn't well written; the whole plot was incredibly contrived, from the old outcast who feels as though he's betrayed his family sacrificing himself to redeem himself (and saying so as he did it), which aside from being ridiculously cliche has already been done in this series, and in a much better way (I mean who didn't know Noal was gonna die in there?), and even the literal deus ex machina with Mat realizing out of the blue that the asharanderei was his ticket out.

My issue with Sanderson has never been his pacing. He's a refreshing change of pace from RJ in many respects, and he happens to handle some scenes well which I thought he might have screwed up. Many of the emotional scenes, for instance; I thought the Rand/Tam scene was well done, as was Egwene and Rand speaking (though these might have been RJ passages, I suppose).

But some things he just isn't a talented enough writer to handle, and this was one. He can be as quick or as long as he wants to be, as long as he gives a scene its due. For example, the whole dreamspike bit went on about 5 times as long as necessary, but I wasn't too upset because he did it okay. But you can't complain he doesn't have time for one of the key plot points of the second half of the entire series when he has time to introduce ridiculous other shit.

Isabel
11-30-2010, 11:01 PM
Hehehe, RJ wrote the Ghenjei scene ;P
It could be that for you it didn't quite fit in with the rest of the book, or that you were just disappointed. That can happen. I remember also a lot of people being disappointed with the way Rand lost his hand. I even found that scene a little bit anti climatic.

I did really liked the Ghenjei scene.

Tercel
11-30-2010, 11:04 PM
I agree Sei'taer, I don't like the Tower of Ghenji scene. The characters didn't feel right to me in their actions.

morat'corlm
11-30-2010, 11:12 PM
Did Jordan write "A Rabbit for Supper"? I can see that going either way, but it's not like Jordan never wrote chapters that really rubbed me the wrong way before, so I could totally buy Moiraine acting like that being 100% his call. You just have to train yourself to ignore the way Jordan handled gender issues.

I thought the sequence in Finnland itself was pretty well-done, though perhaps it's because I already didn't care one way or the other about what happened there.

jana
11-30-2010, 11:34 PM
I think RJ wrote the ToG and Brandon wrote the scene of them afterward. I loved both.

Isabel
11-30-2010, 11:56 PM
Didn't Brandon say that RJ wrote the Ghenji scene?

kamarile
11-30-2010, 11:58 PM
He had more than enough time for stupid verbiage about dreamspikes, about keeping Graendal alive, and a ton of other stuff.

....

you can't complain he doesn't have time for one of the key plot points of the second half of the entire series when he has time to introduce ridiculous other shit.

I don't think Graendal's survival was BS's invention... I have a hunch that, if anything was outlined by RJ at all, he would have outlined how and when the various remaining Forsaken are killed or dealt with. In general, I'm going to assume, reading these books, that if an even somewhat significant character dies, it was RJ who did it.

RJ had a tendency, also, to introduce some fairly ridiculous shit rather late in the game. I remember reading KoD, and all of a sudden, "hell" is a commonly used slang term for a sleazy inn? Not to mention all the stuff he introduced in Winter's Heart-- the triple bonding, the cleansing of the Source, Far Madding and the wells. The dreamspike as a magical item/plot device is actually a lot more elegant than a lot of those, and it made for a cool action sequence.

He can be as quick or as long as he wants to be, as long as he gives a scene its due.

How long has it been in realtime since Moiraine and Lanfear took the plunge into Finnland... 15 years? And the prophecies about her rescue were so detailed that everyone had a basic outline about how it was going to go down. Add to that the fact that Mat and Moiraine are favorite characters for most people... and that the Finns were among the coolest parts of the best WoT book, tSR... and that for every book post-FoH, we (or I, at least) would scan the latest WoT release for any mention of Moiraine at all...

how could anything POSSIBLY give that its due?

I confess to feeling some of that kind of disappointment myself, but I think it's not so much the scene's fault, as a problem with the really long buildup to it. Any frustrations that I had with ToM are that everything is playing out the way RJ always said it would-- all the prophecies are being checked off the list, and there are no real Gotcha! moments until the epilogue. But how can I really be disappointed with what I always expected?

I do agree with the eyerolling about Thom and Moiraine's romance. Why RJ needed to pair up every man and woman onscreen just seemed beyond me. Did the two of them ever spend any significant time together after escaping from the Two Rivers? I need to do a re-read.

(On the other hand, tGS really did make Siuan and Bryne a likable couple for me...although it bothers me that RJ had to significantly curtail these women's powers in order to successfully pair them up romantically with men. Siuan's Salidar laundry days always struck me as a low point for RJ's gender relations writing-- doesn't Bryne spank her at some point for doing it wrong? Moiraine cooing that she'll give up her super angreal and all her worldly ambition just to live with Thom Merrillin... I don't know; it got an eyeroll from me. My suspicion is that Sanderson didn't write that bit alone.)

jana
12-01-2010, 12:06 AM
Didn't Brandon say that RJ wrote the Ghenji scene?

Yes, but it's debatable whether that includes the stuff after they escape. And imo, that seems more like Brandon. (But I could easily be wrong).

morat'corlm
12-01-2010, 12:10 AM
Not to mention all the stuff he introduced in Winter's Heart-- the triple bonding, the cleansing of the Source, Far Madding and the wells.What was the Eye of the World if not a Well? Actually, foreshadowing of the Far Madding issue seems to be the complete and total purpose of the Eye of the World, so it's not like he didn't include irrelevant stuff early too.

yasiru89
12-01-2010, 05:56 AM
I thought the Tower of Ghenjei parts might have been written by RJ himself- right up to when they got out (mainly because Moiraine sounded a bit off every now and then). Even if not, Noal's (and Hopper's as well) death felt natural there, so likely those incidents came directly from the notes at least in either planning or in that they were there. We might see Noal again as a Hero bound to the Horn.

I'd say it just wasn't as good as it was touted to be, or could easily have been.
I reckon RJ might have come back to and touched up on the Ghenjei scenes had he had the time, but sadly, he didn't, so things happened in a more basic way- though it was still awesome.

For all the bitching, the Dreamspike sequence was perhaps more important than the rescue, and thus earns its length- it pushed Perrin into doing something, into realising that while scrawny geeks are still useless outside accounting in the real world despite being pros at The Matrix Online, muscular ta'veren blacksmiths can come pretty damn close to Tel'aran'rhiod prowess back in the real world.

Thom and Moiraine seemed so obvious from the very start though- in fact, my first suspicion that she was attracted to him (what he thinks doesn't really count this being Far Madding WoT) back in EotW when the normally serene and even stoic (so yes, this part was later confirmed) Aes Sedai laughed delightedly at Thom's knife flourishing. Then there was the bit about marriage when Moiraine claimed she knew better than the Wondergirls (or whatever they're called now) who her husband will be while concerned about showing Thom that not all Aes Sedai are... well, Aes Sedai (can't think of a better insult). A more obvious coupling than most others- but hey, it might be the Pattern working, compared to the will of the Pattern and the Wheel weaving as it will, all deus ex machina (I still say Creator ex ter'angreal is better- though hopefully not how they win the Last Battle) are moot. In fact, the ashandarei thing, I thought, was a rather clever loophole.

Some people also seem to have problems with the very fact of plot development- how is the seeming insignificant in the face of other things detail about what a sleazy tavern is called be something that puts you off? How could something that the main character has been contemplating ever since he got a proper hold on the Power have been too sudden? How could a basically bigger stedding-like effect inducing version of Mat's foxhead ter'angreal in Far Madding be so unexpected? How could no one think that the first sisters ritual, given how close first sisters from birth are at least in sharing the same mother, would be a simple formality? As for bonding, Elayne has always wanted to bond Rand, and Aviendha was able to channel, unlikely she would not do the same. What was unexpected was Min. But given the Asha'man being more knowledgeable about bonding than Aes Sedai, perhaps Rand could have bonded Min (he's not likely to Compel her with it, even to stay put I wager). And someone mentioned the Eye of the World, similar concept to a Well.

Daekyras
12-01-2010, 06:22 AM
I liked the tower scene.

Seems like this thread was going the way of Brandon bashing(not that I'm opposed to that idea) but isabels post pulled it back somewhat. nice

Sei'taer
12-01-2010, 06:38 AM
Doesn't matter to me if BS or RJ wrote it, I waited years...let me say that again...I waited for fucking years, for that scene to happen and it felt rushed and disjointed and sappy and I didn't like it at all.

skaywalker
12-01-2010, 07:03 AM
That's the problem - you've waited for it ;)
Becuase you knew it would happen for years. And all the prophesies said how exactly the rescue will happen. So it's like you've been spoiled :).
It's like you know that you'll get a nice present for Christmas, you wait eagerly nevertheless and when you got your present, all the excitement is gone in minutes.

For me, the rescue was done fine and I personally didn't want 10 chapters of walking through the tower and then another 10 chapters fighting with the Snakes and Foxes.

GonzoTheGreat
12-01-2010, 07:39 AM
Doesn't matter to me if BS or RJ wrote it, I waited years...let me say that again...I waited for fucking years, for that scene to happen and it felt rushed and disjointed and sappy and I didn't like it at all.Just imagine how Frenzy felt about it. Might brighten up your day a bit.

Infidel
12-01-2010, 08:05 AM
linkity-link
http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4617
Agreed, Moiraine's behavior made me puke a bit into my mouth.

Hehehe, RJ wrote the Ghenjei scene ;P
Just because RJ wrote it doesn't mean it doesn't suck ass, Izzy.

jana
12-01-2010, 08:09 AM
Just because RJ wrote it doesn't mean it doesn't suck ass, Izzy.

Perhaps you missed the part where she was replying to someone who was blaming it on BS.

Even though "blame" is a silly word since it was the best part of the book :)

Infidel
12-01-2010, 08:30 AM
Perhaps you missed the part where she was replying to someone who was blaming it on BS.

Even though "blame" is a silly word since it was the best part of the book :)

No, I was referring to a discussion which has been going on between myself and Isabel for 10 or more years.

As to being the best part of the book, well, to each their own.

Isabel
12-01-2010, 01:39 PM
No, I was referring to a discussion which has been going on between myself and Isabel for 10 or more years.

As to being the best part of the book, well, to each their own.

I know that some people also didn't like some things RJ wrote ;)
But I find it a bit ironical that something gets blamed on Brandon while it is RJ. Think everyone has become hyper sensetive about things they feel off ;) Things they might have not felt as off, if RJ had written it.

Ishara
12-01-2010, 01:57 PM
(On the other hand, tGS really did make Siuan and Bryne a likable couple for me...although it bothers me that RJ had to significantly curtail these women's powers in order to successfully pair them up romantically with men. Siuan's Salidar laundry days always struck me as a low point for RJ's gender relations writing-- doesn't Bryne spank her at some point for doing it wrong? Moiraine cooing that she'll give up her super angreal and all her worldly ambition just to live with Thom Merrillin... I don't know; it got an eyeroll from me. My suspicion is that Sanderson didn't write that bit alone.)
Where on earth were you when it was Frenzy and me against the world on this one?!

Thank the small gods that others feel the same way. Especially Taer. Sappy is exactly right. Blech. I think maybe it's a good idea that I not got to JCon this year. I may not be able to keep my mouth shut.

Toss the dice
12-01-2010, 04:44 PM
Like I've said before, I liked ToM 50 times better than TGS, mostly due to its entertainment value. Its simply way more fun to read and actually has re-readability, which imo TGS does not. While things in ToM are far from perfect, in several big areas, they don't seem like too big of a deal because the book is enjoyable to read. However, there are two little gripes I will add to the pot that most will consider minor, but actually annoy me.

The word "blast" and its variations. This word is used I don't know how many times, by EVERYONE. In all seriousness, pretty much any and all relatively semi-important characters in Tom say "blast" or use a variation. First off, I think blast is one hell of a lame word. Secondly, the fact that everyone in the book uses it is horrible for character painting since ... everyone uses it.

ToM has way too many typos. I usually could care less about this sort of thing in a book, but the sheer number of typos and literary errors in ToM is ridiculous. Did anyone freakin read the book before it was published? Was it up for proofreading at all? The issue I have isn't so much that these errors (there are a ton) detract from the reading experience, its more just the fact that there are so many and that they're so obvious. Its as if Sanderson and everyone involved in proofreading, editing and publishing the book simply didn't care. Or simply didn't do it, period, other than sending it straight to printing. To be honest, I have never read a published book of any type with half so many errors in it. The fact that its the first edition is no excuse.

Sei'taer
12-01-2010, 05:12 PM
Where on earth were you when it was Frenzy and me against the world on this one?!

Thank the small gods that others feel the same way. Especially Taer. Sappy is exactly right. Blech. I think maybe it's a good idea that I not got to JCon this year. I may not be able to keep my mouth shut.

Why only the small...thank the big ones too. I like big ones.

As for where I was, I was still reading. And you really need to come to Jcon this year, I'd hate to have to show up in Canadia just to bother you.

Ishara
12-01-2010, 05:25 PM
Why only the small...thank the big ones too. I like big ones.

As for where I was, I was still reading. And you really need to come to Jcon this year, I'd hate to have to show up in Canadia just to bother you.

COME! I actually have a guest room now! With a bed in it and everything! Also, compared to your neck of the woods, Ontario will be downright cool. ;)

And not just you but all of these people suddenly agreeing (Infidel and Tercel for starters - seriously! :p) NOW.

Whatevs. I've come to pretend that it never happened.

aynatal2000
12-01-2010, 05:55 PM
I loved the Rescue.It gave a surprise with the purpose of the spear as a key( something we all overlooked,LOL)...but it also gave a throw away line about blind luck, that may be the key to Mat's success leading to TG. I think his luck has been turned up a notch with the removal of his eye - and it will be a boon to team Light.He has beaten the Aelfinn and Eelfinn... and it has also occurred in the real world with the game Snakes and Foxes. Is he now truly the trickster one who has the Dark One's own luck? Can he truly dice/wager the Dark One and win? Icannot wait for the next book to see.

kamarile
12-01-2010, 06:55 PM
Where on earth were you when it was Frenzy and me against the world on this one?!

Thank the small gods that others feel the same way. Especially Taer. Sappy is exactly right. Blech. I think maybe it's a good idea that I not got to JCon this year. I may not be able to keep my mouth shut.

Sorry, I'm a noob here and didn't notice that other thread on WoT sexism, where it seems that 9 pages were spent laughing at you guys for suggesting that yeah, WoT can be pretty sexist.

Here's where I come from on this: When I started reading The Eye of the World, I was a 10-year-old girl who had just finished Lord of the Rings, and I was amazed that by the time the party sets out on their adventures, there are three principal female characters, all with awesome powers. I think there are three female characters in the entirety of LotR, if you don't count Shelob or Lobelia Sackville-Baggins.

But as I got older, and also as the series got older, things would bug me. Nevermind the ever-present ceremonial nudity-- fantasy authors have been known to get WAY more pervy than that. No, the main things that bother me about women in the WoT are this:

- Female rulers, or women in power, are generally portrayed as catty and deceptive, and prone to infighting or bullying, while men in power are portrayed as stoic and unflappable. Compare Aiel villains Couladin vs. Sevanna... or Gareth Bryne vs. the Salidar leadership.

-As mentioned before, powerful women must humble themselves before they can achieve the ideal male soulmate. There's the aforementioned Siuan Doing Laundry debacle, and Moiraine's "becoming more womanly" after her loss of power. Morgase does it too, in this book.

-The thing that struck me the most occurred to me while I was reading Perrin's chapters. And it's this: throughout WoT, the goal for the main three boys has always been to accept the mantle of leadership that fate has bestowed upon them, and to learn how to accept being awesome. Perrin and Mat have all these people that instantly follow them, and it takes a long time for them to be convinced to lead armies or rule nations. But for the girls, the lessons they have to learn are ones about being humble, about not being as great as they think they are, even as they actively struggle to gain followers or influence.

- I'd also like to throw out there the fact that, once again, there are no gay men in the Wheel of Time, and lesbians only happen when there are no men around, or when the women involved actively despise men.

-Never mind the false equivalences. "Male and female powers balance each other out equally. Except that men can be way stronger channelers than women after all. Also, female characters that you thought had special powers? There are men that can do those things better."

There are a lot more quibbles, but this post has gone on long enough. Let me just say that Brandon Sanderson is EXCELLENT at writing women as complete characters, and that more than anything else in tGS is what revitalized my interest in the series. People complain that he changed Mat too much, but I LOVE what he did for Siuan, Nynaeve, Faile, Egwene, and yes, even Elayne and Elaida. I think it's a generational thing-- I don't think RJ ever fully understood why his near-universal characterization of women as arch busybodies constantly complaining about men and thinking about clothes ever rung false. For a younger writer, that sort of thing just doesn't make very much sense.

TLDR; sorry for the derail. Just had to get that off my chest without wading into the silliness that was the other WoT sexism thread.

Toss the dice
12-01-2010, 07:22 PM
No offense, but while I for the most part think the WoT gender characterizations are completely unrealistic, at the core of some traits depicted, there is truth.

One example includes words like catty, solid, unflappable, devious, etc. Women ARE more catty, devious, and emotional than men. Men ARE more solid, unflappable, and in general - stable, than women. That's not sexism, that's simple truth. There are many exceptions to many things in life, and the above has plenty of them on both sides. But in GENERAL, that's the way it is. Males and females have different innate traits and characteristics, its part of life.

And for the record, I am all for feminism. Of course women should be able to vote, should have equality in terms of job opportunities, opportunities in life, treatment, and regard in general compared to males. Also (my personal favorite), I think feminism was a great movement because it has grandly evolved into our modern day, where it is mainstream and a given that young women tend to get drunk and/or fuck as many guys as they can, on a regular basis. Like men. Gay men.

kamarile
12-01-2010, 07:41 PM
No offense, but while I for the most part think the WoT gender characterizations are completely unrealistic, at the core of some traits depicted, there is truth.

One example includes words like catty, solid, unflappable, devious, etc. Women ARE more catty, devious, and emotional than men. Men ARE more solid, unflappable, and in general - stable, than women. That's not sexism, that's simple truth. There are many exceptions to many things in life, and the above has plenty of them on both sides. But in GENERAL, that's the way it is. Males and females have different innate traits and characteristics, its part of life.

And for the record, I am all for feminism. Of course women should be able to vote, should have equality in terms of job opportunities, opportunities in life, treatment, and regard in general compared to males. Also (my personal favorite), I think feminism was a great movement because it has grandly evolved into our modern day, where it is mainstream and a given that young women tend to get drunk and/or fuck as many guys as they can, on a regular basis. Like men. Gay men.


This post isn't for real, is it? Like I said, I'm a noob, so I'm not sure how subtle Theoryland trollposts can get.

morat'corlm
12-01-2010, 07:41 PM
No offenseI love this term.

Toss the dice
12-01-2010, 07:42 PM
I love this term.

I like to use it almost mockingly, which I suppose just makes me more of an asshole.

Toss the dice
12-01-2010, 07:48 PM
This post isn't for real, is it? Like I said, I'm a noob, so I'm not sure how subtle Theoryland trollposts can get.

Sure is. Maybe I know an inordinately large percentage of drama queens and unstable lunatics than most other people. Meh.

Servus Christi
12-01-2010, 08:10 PM
- Female rulers, or women in power, are generally portrayed as catty and deceptive, and prone to infighting or bullying, while men in power are portrayed as stoic and unflappable. Compare Aiel villains Couladin vs. Sevanna... or Gareth Bryne vs. the Salidar leadership.

I guess you must have skipped the Cairhienian lords and most especially the High Lords of Tear.. and on the other end the Wise Ones are a wonderful source for strong females with powerful positions in their society.

As for anything Aes Sedai.. try not to take them as the norm for anything in Randland. Their society is so fucked up it's not real.

-As mentioned before, powerful women must humble themselves before they can achieve the ideal male soulmate. There's the aforementioned Siuan Doing Laundry debacle, and Moiraine's "becoming more womanly" after her loss of power. Morgase does it too, in this book.

Relationships don't work without a bit of humility between the couple. For example, disregarding the fact to so many people are foolish enough to believe Mo's strength of character was based in her ability with the One Power, that it defined her, that her power was in her brute strength, her "humbling" herself before Thom went both ways. Not only did she give herself fully to Thom but Thom also gave himself fully to her. He completely accepted her - One Power and all. It works both ways. It's how relationships work.

As for Morgase. It wasn't a loss of power that made her more womanly, it was setting aside the mask of the Queen that allowed her to be herself. When she as the Queen, she couldn't do that. Men cannot do it when they are kings either.

-The thing that struck me the most occurred to me while I was reading Perrin's chapters. And it's this: throughout WoT, the goal for the main three boys has always been to accept the mantle of leadership that fate has bestowed upon them, and to learn how to accept being awesome. Perrin and Mat have all these people that instantly follow them, and it takes a long time for them to be convinced to lead armies or rule nations. But for the girls, the lessons they have to learn are ones about being humble, about not being as great as they think they are, even as they actively struggle to gain followers or influence.

Humility is a part of being a good leader.

- I'd also like to throw out there the fact that, once again, there are no gay men in the Wheel of Time, and lesbians only happen when there are no men around, or when the women involved actively despise men.

I personally am not interested in reading about either.

-Never mind the false equivalences. "Male and female powers balance each other out equally. Except that men can be way stronger channelers than women after all. Also, female characters that you thought had special powers? There are men that can do those things better."

Raw strength in the power means nothing. What good if we two were put in an arena against one another and I an armed with the trunk of am oak tree and you're armed with a bow and arrows?

Men may have an advantage in sheer strength but women are better channellers on average.

And also, note that where as Lews Therin is the most powerful male channeller, his equal is not another male, Elan Morin, but a female, Lanfear.

kamarile
12-01-2010, 08:10 PM
I like to use it almost mockingly, which I suppose just makes me more of an asshole.

The only thing worse than people who preface offensive things with "No offense, but..." are people who describe themselves as assholes or bitches as if it were something to be proud of.

For the record, saying stuff like

Women ARE more catty, devious, and emotional than men. Men ARE more solid, unflappable, and in general - stable, than women. That's not sexism, that's simple truth.

...

I think feminism was a great movement because it has grandly evolved into our modern day, where it is mainstream and a given that young women tend to get drunk and/or fuck as many guys as they can, on a regular basis.


doesn't make you edgy. It makes you ignorant and out of touch. You're not an asshole, you're a troglodyte.

kamarile
12-01-2010, 08:36 PM
I guess you must have skipped the Cairhienian lords and most especially the High Lords of Tear.. and on the other end the Wise Ones are a wonderful source for strong females with powerful positions in their society.

Wise Ones are not the political equals of clan chiefs, who are exclusively male. A big reason why Sevanna is so derided is because the idea of a woman leading a clan is so ridiculous, and the only reason she tries is because of her monstrous ego. And she spends her entire reign flitting about, doing stupid things, and pawing through jewelry.

As for anything Aes Sedai.. try not to take them as the norm for anything in Randland. Their society is so fucked up it's not real.

I think Aes Sedai get more screentime than the Cairhienin nobility throughout the series, don't they?



Relationships don't work without a bit of humility between the couple. For example, disregarding the fact to so many people are foolish enough to believe Mo's strength of character was based in her ability with the One Power, that it defined her, that her power was in her brute strength, her "humbling" herself before Thom went both ways. Not only did she give herself fully to Thom but Thom also gave himself fully to her. He completely accepted her - One Power and all. It works both ways. It's how relationships work.

Moir's strength of character was never based on her channeling strength, that is true. And let me add that I like Moiraine and Thom as characters, even though their long-destined pairing never made too much sense to me. But if you're saying Thom's accepting Moiraine even though she is a channeler is equally as generous as her offering to give up almost all of her channeling power if he would prefer it-- they're not.

And that's kind of besides the issue, also-- the issue is that this was always a pattern for how RJ dealt with strong female characters, and the general arcs that their stories go through.


As for Morgase. It wasn't a loss of power that made her more womanly, it was setting aside the mask of the Queen that allowed her to be herself. When she as the Queen, she couldn't do that. Men cannot do it when they are kings either.

But the arcs of the main (and secondary) male characters doesn't require them to give up anything to achieve self-actualization and love.



Humility is a part of being a good leader.

Has any of the men had to learn that lesson? Even Rand is constantly being vindicated time and time again. Even after his epiphany, the reader gets reminded that the REAL uppity characters surrounding Rand are his AS advisors.



I personally am not interested in reading about either.

That's not really the issue, is it? The issue is sexism in the WoT. RJ is not the first male fantasy author to write stories where lesbians exist but not icky gay men. Nor is he the first man to write lesbians as either horny straight girls in need of a real man, or alternatively man-hating feminazis. It doesn't make it any less sexist, or unenlightened. Maybe if he had finished the series in 1995 it wouldn't seem as out of place as it does now, in 2010.



Raw strength in the power means nothing. What good if we two were put in an arena against one another and I an armed with the trunk of am oak tree and you're armed with a bow and arrows?

Men may have an advantage in sheer strength but women are better channellers on average.

And also, note that where as Lews Therin is the most powerful male channeller, his equal is not another male, Elan Morin, but a female, Lanfear.

IIRC, Elan Morin IS LTT's counterpart in strength. According to the Big White Book, Lanfear is perhaps second to him in strength among the Forsaken. I'm not sure if RJ retconned that later on, by ranking her under Demandred or someone. But she got a strength downgrade when she became Cyndane, in any case.

Brita
12-01-2010, 09:35 PM
There are a lot more quibbles, but this post has gone on long enough. Let me just say that Brandon Sanderson is EXCELLENT at writing women as complete characters, and that more than anything else in tGS is what revitalized my interest in the series. People complain that he changed Mat too much, but I LOVE what he did for Siuan, Nynaeve, Faile, Egwene, and yes, even Elayne and Elaida. I think it's a generational thing-- I don't think RJ ever fully understood why his near-universal characterization of women as arch busybodies constantly complaining about men and thinking about clothes ever rung false. For a younger writer, that sort of thing just doesn't make very much sense.

Well said. I have to agree that there is outdated ideas of "equality" in WoT. It doesn't bother me too much because of what you have just mentioned. Just like I can read Dickens and not be offended, or Tolstoi. They reflect the time and the era and do not personally offend because the ideas are clearly outdated. I feel the same about WoT. I guess because RJ set out to create a world specifically revolving around strong female dominance it may be more scrutinized in this area- but I have no trouble pushing aside the themes that reflect a certain stereotyping because authors like BS show a new generation of thoughtful writers that create heroines like Vin*.

* A little aside, my 11 year old son read the Mistborn series, and was truly disappointed that Vin married, and that Elend ended up as a Mistborn equal or more powerful than she. He didn't want her eclipsed. So there may be an even more sensitive generation to come when it comes to the gender roles that are so ingrained (i.e. the girl always have to get married and can't be stronger than her husband for it to work).

Sei'taer
12-01-2010, 09:55 PM
* A little aside, my 11 year old son read the Mistborn series, and was truly disappointed that Vin married, and that Elend ended up as a Mistborn equal or more powerful than she. He didn't want her eclipsed. So there may be an even more sensitive generation to come when it comes to the gender roles that are so ingrained (i.e. the girl always have to get married and can't be stronger than her husband for it to work).

Egods woman! Come let the kid hang with me for a few weeks. I'll get him back on track.

Brita
12-01-2010, 10:04 PM
Egods woman! Come let the kid hang with me for a few weeks. I'll get him back on track.

Ummmmmm.....no. :p

Frenzy
12-02-2010, 02:32 AM
troglodyte even rhymes with toss the dice. Nice!

Frenzy
12-02-2010, 02:36 AM
it's good to see Mat isn't infallible, mistakenly leaving out half the 'people' in there in his demands.

Killing Noal/Jaim off was rehash, and leaves the question of Ishamael's involvement with him hanging in the breeze. That must be one of those loose threads we were promised.

i suppose Moiraine's & Lan's broken bond will also be swept under the rug for the sake of expedience.

and i'm still waiting to hear why people think Mat went into the Tower in the first place.

Jokeslayer
12-02-2010, 03:14 AM
Relationships don't work without a bit of humility between the couple. For example, disregarding the fact to so many people are foolish enough to believe Mo's strength of character was based in her ability with the One Power, that it defined her, that her power was in her brute strength, her "humbling" herself before Thom went both ways. Not only did she give herself fully to Thom but Thom also gave himself fully to her. He completely accepted her - One Power and all. It works both ways. It's how relationships work.

Thom didn't concede in that scene. Even his distaste for Aes Sedai (which hasn't been a strong characteristic of his for some time) is basically ignored. And what should have been recognised as Moiraine's bravest acheivement is brushed aside in favour of making her prettier. The hell?


But I find it a bit ironical that something gets blamed on Brandon while it is RJ. Think everyone has become hyper sensetive about things they feel off ;) Things they might have not felt as off, if RJ had written it.


This is a very good point imo.

yks 6nnetu hing
12-02-2010, 04:14 AM
I quite liked the in-Tower stuff. Thought the logic made sense and to be honest, I was rather happy Moiraine wasn't "working leather" after all.

after the Tower, however: yuck, yuck, yuck, ewwww, yuck, gross and infantile. That last infantile bit is for when Mat thinks its cool (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=lame) to say "no my eye doesn't hurt".

yasiru89
12-02-2010, 07:17 AM
I wonder if people stop to think the social and historical context of the universe itself before they decide the series desperately needs for them to paint on their views of sexism on it.
For one thing, male channellers caused the Breaking of the World, throwing every facet of life in the Age of Legends (already reeling from the War of Power) into chaos and ultimately ending it. It is not a difficult metaphor between male Power and male power, where, in the latter males hold social and political status more or less equal to that of women (as seems the case in the Age of Legends, since despite Lews Therin being the supreme commander of the Light, he found his plan without support from the women, while they still got to create their sa'angreal and ter'angreal keys despite instability that may have handed the weapons straight to the Shadow on its invasion). History also tells of the coming and going of false Dragons, what they leave behind had always been devastation. Artur Hawkwing's unification effort through the justice and peace of the sword also proved to be a short-lived thing (his war of sorts on Aes Sedai also probably made them cautious of like-figures).
Through the course of the series, this is rather obvious from the political climate- Andor is among the most powerful nations and the Crown passes exclusively to a female heir, Murandy is so weak as to be barely held together and the king is trying to solidify his power through whatever means available, Amadicia's king seems dependent on the Whitecloaks for strength, etc. (Cairhien might also count, but due to the weakening effects of the Aiel War let's disregard it)
Tear's combined rule is an exception, and yes, High Lords do indeed outnumber the High Ladies and seem to have more power- but like in Amadicia and the Whitecloaks this is consolidation through association- more people means more power.
Among the Aiel and the Borderlanders is another story- both are warrior societies, and if we accept that in general, men are stronger physically than women (a given I hope), it makes a lot of sense for a King or Clan Chief to rally the people against one another or the Shadow (Trollocs being stronger than men and women both). Even so, Ethenielle and Tenobia being rulers of two of the Borderland nations indicate how history touched even there. Among the Aiel, Clan Chiefs are symbols for people to rally around, but their power is far from absolute, and they are made to rely upon the counsel of the Wise Ones (which seems to be seldom ignored if at all). Indeed, Wise Ones decide whether you can even try out to be a Clan Chief. This is on top of Wise Ones settling disputes, finding water with Dreaming (and in the Waste the importance of water cannot be overstated), channelling (healing, for instance, always elevates one in the eyes of a community; compare the derisive tones under which male doctors and the like are spoken of in general- and not in weak places like Amadicia).

As for Sevanna, she was grudgingly accepted because she overstepped the bounds of representation (which was her role) at Alcair Dal. Among the Shaido, she had enough influence to be allowed to keep more gai'shain than anyone had ever heard of. Why she wasn't able to solidify her power was not because she was a woman (the Shaido had by then abandoned much of the old ways- a woman Clan Chief is not a far cry from Wetlander gai'shain, though notice that a male Wise One certainly would be), but because the dream of the Car'a'carn was so fresh in their minds (this solidified the male role and even shrewd people like Therava were convinced Couladin had been the true one- so perhaps the Shaido degeneration hid a loss of hope among the common folk while Savanna tried to associate herself with Rand al'Thor's power instead and the Wise Ones manoeuvred for advantage).

All this of course affects Aes Sedai more than most, since the stigma of the Breakers of the World associated with Aes Sedai specifically (albeit the male), so they chose to further distance themselves from male power (seen in the meek deference demanded of Warders, supposedly Gaidin- brothers in arms, who seem more necessities bred of war than allies). Especially to gain the trust of leaders whom they sought to manipulate for whatever they saw as the greater good.

Thom's contempt for female channellers comes from the unlawful gentling of his nephew- Thom was able to look past that and see the woman. To be fair, it was the gesture that counted in what Moiraine offered, though she almost certainly meant it. Such things are irrational, but that's what tugs at the heartstrings. On the other hand, as a general note, Aes Sedai like the Power way too much (though in Moiraine's case, even had she been stilled, she'd have been up and about faster than Siuan even I'd wager), as if they're all addicted to a drug and are useless the moment they lose it. Perhaps they should learn the sword or something like Rand forced Taim to have the Asha'man do.

Rand is 'vindicated' because he was insane and needlessly frustrated by very obviously 'uppity' people, atop his personal torment. Even the very best of the Aes Sedai seem to believe it is only his duty to be their hunting hound, to be directed at the Shadow as they decreed. Not a far cry from wanting someone leashed like the Seanchan do.

The Big White Book was meant by RJ to be a look at the world of Randland as though through the eyes of a historian living in it. We have claims about Lanfear's strength from Moiraine and the Aes Sedai (who believed men and women were equal in the Power- though they are if you can look past brute force, since women have been seen to be far more deft at things, like Nynaeve repeatedly healing things never thought possible to be healed), but apparently, according to RJ, Rand with his weak fat little man angreal was more or less evenly matched with Lanfear with her near-sa'angreal bracelet, while Rahvin for instance, Rand claimed was nearly as strong as he, so again- not a retcon, just character misinformation.

Silvertip
12-02-2010, 10:03 AM
For me, all the "is WoT sexist" debates are really splitting hairs about a situation where the big picture is pretty clear. Jordan clearly gives women a much bigger role to play and much greater capabilities than (say) Tolkien, or lots of writers since, and that's a real strength of the series. I'd be surprised if anybody could deny that (although, this *is* theoryland ...). Nonetheless, as Kamarile noted, there are still lots of things you can point to where residual attitudes about what women can or can't do, or are or not like, creep in. Would I at least like the series better if there was less of that? Yep. Is that enough to outweigh what he's done in putting strong and heroic women closer to center stage? Nope. (Like Brita said). What does that make Jordan? Human. I can deal.

There was one specific thing that jumped out at me in ToM. I don't have the quote here, but when Gawyn has his epiphany and goes rushing back to Tar Valon to be a real warder to Egwene, he is thinking very specifically that what he needs to do is accept that his role is to stand in Egwene's shadow and help her do her world-saving thing, rather than trying to be the glorious hero himself. As an exercise, try gender-flipping that one in your head. Likely it would ring all kinds of alarms about a stereotypical women's role being as a helpmeet to the true (male) hero. But here it's Gawyn doing it. It's worth noticing incidents like that as well, since they do show a somewhat better gender balance than just compiling the things that do (legitimately) ring the alarm bells. IMHO, of course.

S

GonzoTheGreat
12-02-2010, 10:10 AM
Yeah, but that's Gawyn. His decisions are not always entirely sensible anyway. I mean, he would've done better latching on to Laras, for instance.

Silvertip
12-02-2010, 10:12 AM
Or Bela.

Toss the dice
12-02-2010, 10:27 AM
The only thing worse than people who preface offensive things with "No offense, but..." are people who describe themselves as assholes or bitches as if it were something to be proud of.

I've thought of myself as an asshole a time or two, after doing something that warranted that thought. However, never been proud of it. Where did I say that? Oh that's right, you're putting words in my mouth.

For the record, saying stuff like



doesn't make you edgy. It makes you ignorant and out of touch. You're not an asshole, you're a troglodyte.

I say what I believe in, and personally don't care in being edgy or anything else. I sense that you do however like to be "edgy," whatever that means realistically, or you wouldn't have said that.

You're just one more person that sees someone discuss a few very real differences between males and females and thoughtlessly assumes they are bashing one or the other. Read between the lines and grow a brain, and then maybe you can actually start having productive conversations.

Grig
12-02-2010, 10:35 AM
I say what I believe in, and personally don't care in being edgy or anything else. I sense that you do however like to be "edgy," whatever that means realistically, or you wouldn't have said that.

That's just a silly inference. More likely, the poster you're responding to has simply run into too many people on the internet spouting "no offense, but women really are drama queens and men are rock solid, deal with it and you're just being a hysterical woman if you think otherwise" in an attempt to be edgy and cool, shirking the "evil political correctness of modern day society". People like you are a dime a dozen on the internet. Spare us.

Brita
12-02-2010, 11:11 AM
There was one specific thing that jumped out at me in ToM. I don't have the quote here, but when Gawyn has his epiphany and goes rushing back to Tar Valon to be a real warder to Egwene, he is thinking very specifically that what he needs to do is accept that his role is to stand in Egwene's shadow and help her do her world-saving thing, rather than trying to be the glorious hero himself. As an exercise, try gender-flipping that one in your head. Likely it would ring all kinds of alarms about a stereotypical women's role being as a helpmeet to the true (male) hero. But here it's Gawyn doing it. It's worth noticing incidents like that as well, since they do show a somewhat better gender balance than just compiling the things that do (legitimately) ring the alarm bells. IMHO, of course.


Excellent point.

amazinglarry
12-02-2010, 11:11 AM
TLDR; sorry for the derail. Just had to get that off my chest without wading into the silliness that was the other WoT sexism thread.

kamarile - Just wanted to interject here to recommend Leigh Butler's WoT reread blog (on tor.com) to you, although you probably already read it if you're on theoryland. She touches on a lot of the issues you raised in your post. Also, welcome to theoryland. It is nice to see a new user jump right in with a strong perspective and well thought-out posts. Hope you stick around.

amazinglarry

Casabamelon
12-02-2010, 12:47 PM
That's just a silly inference. More likely, the poster you're responding to has simply run into too many people on the internet spouting "no offense, but women really are drama queens and men are rock solid, deal with it and you're just being a hysterical woman if you think otherwise" in an attempt to be edgy and cool, shirking the "evil political correctness of modern day society". People like you are a dime a dozen on the internet. Spare us.

Wait, so thoughtlessly stereotyping people is OK? I'm so confused!
________
Upskirt Vids (http://www.fucktube.com/categories/42/upskirt/videos/1)

Grig
12-02-2010, 01:02 PM
Wait, so thoughtlessly stereotyping people is OK?

Thoughtlessly? I'm drawing judgement off the fact that he spouted off discredited sexist tropes as if they were Gospel, then reverted to a "nuh-uh, whatever you say bounces off me like rubber and sticks to you like glue" defense.

kamarile
12-02-2010, 01:03 PM
First of all, please excuse any typoes-- I'm typing this on a touchpad and it's a strange new experience for me. Curse my limited female hand-eye coordination! (Just kidding.)

an impassioned defense of RJ's worldbuilding


I should clarify that I'm not quibbling with the rightness or wrongness in modern terms of Randland society. Rather, it is a matter of authorial intent. Basically, I'm not saying "There are no lady WHITECLOAKS! Change that, secist pigs!" I'm saying something else about the way women in positions of power are portrayed as characters.


There was one specific thing that jumped out at me in ToM. I don't have the quote here, but when Gawyn has his epiphany and goes rushing back to Tar Valon to be a real warder to Egwene, he is thinking very specifically that what he needs to do is accept that his role is to stand in Egwene's shadow and help her do her world-saving thing, rather than trying to be the glorious hero himself. As an exercise, try gender-flipping that one in your head. Likely it would ring all kinds of alarms about a stereotypical women's role being as a helpmeet to the true (male) hero. But here it's Gawyn doing it. It's worth noticing incidents like that as well, since they do show a somewhat better gender balance than just compiling the things that do (legitimately) ring the alarm bells. IMHO, of course.

S

That is a good point re Gawyn. I think that particular power dynamic is unique in the series. I do wonder how much of it RJ wrote-- not because I'm being uncharitable to RJ, but because Gawyn's heart to heart with Elayne is very characteristic of Sandersons style.

These thoughts aren't fully fleshed out... I might clarify more when I get to a real computer.

yks 6nnetu hing
12-02-2010, 01:32 PM
well, if you think of it, all AS-Warder dynamics are basically the Egwene-Gawyn story (only with the difference that it took Gawyn inordinately long to figure it out), with an excellent sidetrack of Nynaeve and Lan where there's a little variation of public/private power balance.

Infidel
12-02-2010, 01:59 PM
and i'm still waiting to hear why people think Mat went into the Tower in the first place.

Point 1. KoD, p. 261, Mat thinking to and about himself:
"He kept his promises."
We've seen Mat do this repeatedly, regardless of the cost to himself.

Point 2. KoD, p. 264, Mat again:
"He had never really trusted Moiraine, or liked her either...But then, if not for her he would be back in the Two Rivers mucking out the barn and tending his da's cows."
Justified or not, Mat, in his own mind, owes Moiraine, big-time.

Point 3. KoD, pp. 263 and 264, Thom:
"'I'll go by myself, if necessary. But if I read this correctly...the only hope of success is if you are one of the three.'"
Then Mat, thinking to himself:
"And there old Thom sat, saying nothing, just staring at him. That was the rub. He liked Thom."
Thom is Mat's friend. And we know the lengths to which Mat will go for his friends.

Point 4. KoD, p. 264, Mat:
"'Burn me for a fool,' he muttered. 'I'll go.'"
The dice in his head stop rattling, and the stage is set.

Thom is Mat's friend, and this is important to Thom.

He owes Moiraine.

He keeps his promises.

He promises to go.

Mat, being Mat, has to go, now.

Ishara
12-02-2010, 02:39 PM
I think there are three female characters in the entirety of LotR, if you don't count Shelob or Lobelia Sackville-Baggins.


TLDR; sorry for the derail. Just had to get that off my chest without wading into the silliness that was the other WoT sexism thread.

LOL - That made me laugh re: Shelob. Also, not derailing. brining it right back on course. ;)

and i'm still waiting to hear why people think Mat went into the Tower in the first place. Heh. Stupid princess. Stupid Tower. Stupid Knight in Shining Armour.

You're just one more person that sees someone discuss a few very real differences between males and females and thoughtlessly assumes they are bashing one or the other. Read between the lines and grow a brain, and then maybe you can actually start having productive conversations.

TtD - People only preface things with 'no offence' when they know what they're about to say is reallt effing offensive. What you said about men versus women is so antiquated and ignorant that it's painful. So, do you think that black people are stupid, Mexicans are lazy and Asians are extra industrious? PLEASE.

The only "real" differences between men and women lie between their legs, okay? And even that's stretching it a bit given issues of gender versus sex.

Also, welcome to TL Kamarile! Lovely to have a well reasoned poster stick to their guns.

Cairn
12-02-2010, 03:06 PM
Thought I'd chime in here, lots of points to make.

I tend to have 'traditional' views, and I have to agree that WoT and RJ's gender roles struck me as a bit chauvenist.

Back on the original topic, I also was hugely disappointed in the rescue. I believe it sorely needed Moiraine to assist in getting out of Finnland, and the entire scene outside is really just putrid.

Thom and Moiraine were obviously meant for each other since very early on, not sure how people missed that, and they actually fit together as people very well. However, the love professions would have been better put off-screen and should have included the actual Moiraine instead of whatever milksop they ended up rescuing. (Don't forget Moiraine is a very traditional Cairheinin, and would hardly be professing those things while naked and with Mat around. If Moiraine needs a scene to be more lovey-dovey then change the viewpoint to her or Thom, heaven knows BS had no problems doing that every third page.)

I felt Noal's death needed a purpose, not watered-down Ingtar. Ingtar's sacrifice was eye-popping and gave me goose bumps. He fought for real redemption. When Rand tells him, "May the last embrace of the mother welcome you home"... hot damn that made it powerful stuff. Noal's seemed hollow, unnecessary, and made me think, "Yep, here it comes."

Mat 'figuring out' the true purpose of the ashanderei had me saying, no no no. If Mat has one defining characterisitic it is his luck, and I felt like much more likely he would've accidentally struck the wall and the spear goes right through it. Then Moiraine explains it once they get out. Possibly Moiraine gives him the idea since she asked about a way out as part of her bargain. How does Mat get out of jams? By careful reasoning of cryptic wordplay.... Not quite.

Are we certain the rescue scenes were written by RJ? I would've sworn that was BS work... (But I've been told I was wrong about the Hindersnap chapter as well.)

Cairn
12-02-2010, 03:20 PM
The only "real" differences between men and women lie between their legs, okay? And even that's stretching it a bit given issues of gender versus sex.

While Toss the Dice obviously loves not being tactful, there are serious differences between men and women. They're not absolute, we all fall in the spectrum, but because of each gender's biological programming we have penchants and greater probabilities for different things.

The race generalizations aren't a product of biology or genetics, but rather of culture. Those generalizations are very different than gender generalizations- which actually have some basis.

I wanted to present the view in a (hopefully) non-asshat way, but if we really wanted to argue it then it might be time for a different thread.

Silvertip
12-02-2010, 03:47 PM
Thanks Cairn, a very successful non-asshat post :). You should know, however, that a lot of the research promoting supposed inherent gender differences isn't nearly as strong as is commonly believed, or as is portrayed in the media. It's really a field where an overgeneralized and oversimplified summary of a complex result can wind up in the headlines, and then in everybody's conventional wisdom, with all of the ifs, ands, and buts that limit it forgotten. Which is not to say that inherent gender differences don't exist, but the actual data behind many common beliefs aren't as strong as is generally thought. Thanks for a thoughtful post,

S

Grig
12-02-2010, 05:14 PM
While Toss the Dice obviously loves not being tactful, there are serious differences between men and women. They're not absolute, we all fall in the spectrum, but because of each gender's biological programming we have penchants and greater probabilities for different things.

The problem is that certain people state such cases far too strongly, and there is a serious problem in some evo-psych research programs that tend to reinforce "traditional gender roles" based on flimsy data or shoddy methodology (there are a lot of "just-so" stories not supported by the data used to justify them) . There are general differences between males and females, of course, but the whole "women are devious, while men are solid, unflappable, and stable" thing is just laughable. Those factors are heavily culturally biased. Men pretend to be unflappable because they face social ridicule otherwise. Women are said to be more devious because men get angry that they can't seem to get any woman they want, and it obviously can't be the man's fault.

If he said men tend to be taller or men tend to have less body fat, there wouldn't really be any further discussion on that point. But he stated some rather controversial, sexist things and should definitely be called on it.

kamarile
12-02-2010, 05:35 PM
well, if you think of it, all AS-Warder dynamics are basically the Egwene-Gawyn story (only with the difference that it took Gawyn inordinately long to figure it out), with an excellent sidetrack of Nynaeve and Lan where there's a little variation of public/private power balance.

I should have clarified-- I meant of the romantic relationships in WoT. Myrelle aside, I always got the sense tha most AS aren't schtupping their Warders too frequently. Don't most AS try to keep those relationships platonic?

Tossthe dice, I'm sorry I had to call you out. But in my defense, I did check to see if you were actually serious beforehand.

Seconding all thecritiques of evo-psych just so stories. Let me elaborate on that and say that if I read a novel about, say, American suburban housewives in the1950s, and those women acted like chattering ninnies, I'd have a more positive reaction to thatthan I do when female WoT characters do, since teir society shouldn't haveall the inherent sexist baggage of our own. It makes mesuspect tat a writer has a favorite side in the nature/nurture debate.

Cairn
12-02-2010, 06:35 PM
There are general differences between males and females, of course, but the whole "women are devious, while men are solid, unflappable, and stable" thing is just laughable.

...

If he said men tend to be taller or men tend to have less body fat, there wouldn't really be any further discussion on that point. But he stated some rather controversial, sexist things and should definitely be called on it.

Agreed on all points, except-

The guy is entitled to his opinion, and controversial or not, we can't say it's completely not true. I would never say don't call him out on an antagonistic tone, but I still think there's some substance to his arguments.

We wouldn't discuss height or body fat because it's obvious and measurable. But hormones are still a biological function, and are very different in men and women. Males and females are different in more than physical traits and structure, there are behavioral trends that differ. They are not absolute, and if we're going to discuss one person's opinion on this let's make it RJ's.

RJ addresses these behavioral norms well in characters like Birgitte that hardly fit any tradionalist mold for females. He is showing that while his typical Randland women do certain things, there are some who do not. Take for example the clothing in WoT. Is it more likely that the women characters would be more thoughtful about their clothing? I would say yes- it's similar to our own society and the women in it. That doesn't mean it's their chief concern of the day, and Elayne and Egwene really only use clothing decisions as ways to help them in their respective powerful stations. However, then there's Mat- a man that obviously is taking huge strides in wanting to look nice, and Min or Birgitte- who eschew the typical dresses women are 'supposed' to wear and go their own way.

I feel like you can tell from the character traits of RJ's men and women and how he writes them that he personally held a somewhat traditional view of gender roles. However, he did more than his due diligence to create a society with equal roles for men and women as much as possible. If Tam and Gareth are 'solid' and 'unflappable' then so are Sorilea and Cadsuane.

Even though RJ agreed with this traditional view of gender roles and behaviors, I think he went above and beyond in trying to maintain equality. Consider the society in Randland, it can be most closely compared to our own Middle Ages. Women in Randland are far and away much more equivalent to men than any society we have had at that point of technology/ enlightenment/ history (however you want to term it).

I think as fans we place too much emphasis on the Aes Sedai and their political maneuverings when this is discussed. Yes, they are catty and devious and it's a society of all women. But if there were still male Aes Sedai would the political maneuverings and cattiness stop? My answer is absolutely not- not in Randland and not in our world.

Bluedust
12-02-2010, 06:45 PM
I should have clarified-- I meant of the romantic relationships in WoT. Myrelle aside, I always got the sense tha most AS aren't schtupping their Warders too frequently. Don't most AS try to keep those relationships platonic?

Tossthe dice, I'm sorry I had to call you out. But in my defense, I did check to see if you were actually serious beforehand.

Seconding all thecritiques of evo-psych just so stories. Let me elaborate on that and say that if I read a novel about, say, American suburban housewives in the1950s, and those women acted like chattering ninnies, I'd have a more positive reaction to thatthan I do when female WoT characters do, since teir society shouldn't haveall the inherent sexist baggage of our own. It makes mesuspect tat a writer has a favorite side in the nature/nurture debate.

Yeah I never liked yentas myself.

yasiru89
12-02-2010, 06:50 PM
To elaborate on my 'impassioned defence', I think what we can take away from it is that the women who are pitifully weak, self-absorbed, stupid, etc. etc. despite being in positions of great power in WoT are not so because they're women, but because they've adopted an isolationist point of view. People like Elaida vs the best female characters on offer like Birgitte, Berelain, Aviendha (though arguably this latter is a tad self-obsessed over the ji thing), etc.
On a psychological level (this depends on what camp you're on of course, and if you don't agree with it I have no desire to argue the point), the absence of homosexual men is also explained through exactly this. When women are isolationist and clearly believe themselves superior to any man, not even bothering to look at the virtues of each individual regardless of gender, this resonates with the part of the male mind that loves the chase (a case in point is Mat's incredulity at being pursued by Tylin), and takes it up for challenge. And even where there was no particular interest in women, the mystery of it, in them keeping themselves apart, drives the men exactly on to the same path.

And men and women are indeed different, on how their brains are wired, on how their bodies work (apart from that simple 'what's between the legs'), etc. I myself can provide quite strong enough (partly statistical) evidence on the point; back when I was in school, the curriculum included two sets of examinations, after the first you would go on to specialise and then sit the second. I would always notice that the top scorer on the first set of exams was more than three quarters of the time a woman while on the specialisation (take the biology stream for instance), the top scorer was perhaps only alternately a woman. I attribute this to women being able to balance more things effectively and do well across the field, whereas men generally tend to do better on a focused goal. It is not far fetched then that perhaps some character traits also appear more frequently in the one sex than the other, though I deny that this doesn't happen in a balanced way, with as much good as bad for each, else our less carnal mind would eventually win over its primal counterpart through reason and attraction on the Platonic level would be rendered crippled or bogged down by those likely prejudices.

Back on WoT, at least in the Green Ajah, Aes Sedai and Warder liaisons seem to be the case for the majority. I seem to recall one character noting with surprise that another (a Green Sister) did not seem particularly close with her Warder or some such (not to mention in New Spring I had the impression of romantic interest towards Lan from Moiraine, though one might say this was never to be explored given how driven she was, perhaps too driven). That most others try simply to use Warders as comrades in arms (more as a general commanding a soldier under him) instead of seeing them as people (let alone taking them as lovers) despite the intimate connection the Warder bond allows goes back again to the isolationism (Moiraine once told a dancer in tDR that the White Tower is not so isolated from the world as people would believe- this I take to be an apologist denial, or she simply meant that instead of seclusion, Aes Sedai are about apathy), Aes Sedai society is the worst for it, along with Far Madding perhaps.

So this society has its own 'baggage' just as our own does or once did. The results are remarkably similar though the instigation could not be more different. The mention of males and females working the Power together creating the greatest achievements of the last Age (and Rand cleansing the Source with Nynaeve in this) might be the metaphor that ties this all up.

Someone brought up Cadsuane and Sorilea, but I think the former is a weaker character than the latter (again likely owing to her Far Madding background- which in turn led her to try herding Rand just like the others (though getting away with it longer) under the guise of 'guiding'- my least favourite word coming from a woman in WoT because they almost always mean something far less agreeable), despite thinking that she is the latter's equal due to similar age and experience, but as Rand puts it, neither is a fool-proof indicator of great wisdom. Aes Sedai are never good examples for 'unflappability' simply because they try too hard- more for appearance's sake than in trying to calm the mind.

morat'corlm
12-02-2010, 08:08 PM
I myself can provide quite strong enough (partly statistical) evidence on the pointPerhaps you can, but you didn't.

yasiru89
12-02-2010, 08:38 PM
Perhaps you can, but you didn't.
What was the whole academic anecdote about then, do you think? I don't have exact numbers (hence 'partly'), but having followed the trend for some decade or more in the rat-race I'm rather confident in my ballpark frequencies.

Ishara
12-02-2010, 08:44 PM
Yasiru, while I certainly respect the fact that you're approaching the discussion in a respectful and reasoned way, I still have to disagree. What I took away from your discussion was akin to the fact that people think that boys are naturally better at math and girls are natural caregivers. It's a generalization based on localized and influenced factors. The women who sat those exams may well have scored better on the first test for any number of reasons, but maybe the scores were lower for an identical number of reasons. I remain unconvinced.

morat'corlm
12-02-2010, 09:07 PM
It could be, at any rate. I'm not willing to sign onto any universally limiting explanation, whether cultural or essential, for human thought or behavior without extremely solid data.What was the whole academic anecdote about then, do you think? I don't have exact numbers (hence 'partly'), but having followed the trend for some decade or more in the rat-race I'm rather confident in my ballpark frequencies.Your data collection might very well be good enough for government work, or psychology, more to the point–I have no reason to slight your observation–, but the causation, the inferential attribution from a have done to a must do, is entirely lacking.

As, somewhat back to the topic, is Jordan's, which is why he's generally criticized for his female characters. For myself, I find his knowing platitudes about gender relations easy enough to simply ignore, with a handful of exceptions, and the parts I view as a rather mean-spirited satire of feminism as well, but I have to say I find many of the broader defenses I've seen here or elsewhere to be taking quite a high gloss to things.

It's certainly true that the housewives of the Two Rivers tend more toward Katharine Hepburn than June Cleaver, but Aviendha didn't hit far from the mark when deriding "your wetlander women who must be queens or nobles or else dance for a man if they wish to eat." Is Randland sexually egalitarian when compared to 17th- and 18th-century Europe? Certainly. But/and the parts of Randland culture that are essentially grafted-on 20th-century values are, I think, much more legitimately open to criticism. 1950s South Carolina is not so distantly removed that its varnish of "a different time!" has fully dried.

yasiru89
12-02-2010, 09:26 PM
Yasiru, while I certainly respect the fact that you're approaching the discussion in a respectful and reasoned way, I still have to disagree. What I took away from your discussion was akin to the fact that people think that boys are naturally better at math and girls are natural caregivers. It's a generalization based on localized and influenced factors. The women who sat those exams may well have scored better on the first test for any number of reasons, but maybe the scores were lower for an identical number of reasons. I remain unconvinced.
On your examples, I'm not certain about the natural caregivers bit (though neural facilities towards empathy exist in greater abundance in females), since that sort of thing has more to do with how one is raised (environmental aspects), it seems that males do indeed tend to (in that this is statistical and in no way holds true on individual comparisons) do inherently better at mathematics than females. However, this is only the case for areas which require greater spatial focus (geometry (the proper sort, not in memorising proofs), calculus and the like- though this is perhaps the naive/intuitive approach, I conjecture that the results will be different under an axiomatised setting, though to instruct in one from the get go might be counter-productive), seeing as women are generally better in verbal processes and areas like algebra (which can be regarded, though in a sometimes contrived manner, to be more verbal task than anything else) don't admit as great a difference perhaps due to this very fact. When I say inherent, I mean biologically- as this (http://www.cerebromente.org.br/n11/mente/eisntein/cerebro-homens.html) excellent paper evidences.
This is not to say however, that these differences mean that each woman or man finds themselves inferior in the relevant aspect to the entire body of their opposite gender- nor do they mean that insurmountable obstacles exist.

morat'corlm- do you mean the inferences drawn in my example? If so, then, having been the one more familiar of the context, I should assure you that there existed very few differences apart from the aforementioned specialisation (academia-wise as it was or on other things) during the two year interval between the tests.

I'm afraid we've gone far afield since behavioural differences were the original concern.

Silvertip
12-02-2010, 10:05 PM
but the causation, the inferential attribution from a have done to a must do, is entirely lacking.

Pretty much the definitive statement on this:

http://xkcd.com/552/

("xkcd" is a comic strip, btw, no rickrolls here ...)

GonzoTheGreat
12-03-2010, 04:25 AM
TtD - People only preface things with 'no offence' when they know what they're about to say is reallt effing offensive.No offense, but that's not really true. Can't think of any good examples to counter your generalisation right now, though.

Casabamelon
12-03-2010, 09:11 AM
I would like to point out, that RJs societies seem to me to be pretty damn egalitarian.

No one thinks a female queen is weaker than a male king, the most powerful person in the world is a woman (Amyrlin Seat). People are surprised at Birgette being a warder, not because she's a woman, but because of tradition. The women who join Cha Faile are looked at askance more because they pretend ji'i'toh, than because they're women in pants with swords. Wisdoms, wise women, Aes Sedai, wind finders/wavemistresses.....

So, really, the world he built is fine (IMHO), it's just the personalities of the different people you're arguing about. And... people are different.

And if you would like to pass judgment on RJ based on the strongest ta'veren to ever exist who oh-by-the-way also has two other ta'veren friends whom he grew up with compared to a teenage queen and a teenage Amyrlin... for Christ's sake, can you say apples and oranges? Oh, forgot to mention, one of the strong/resilient men you're angry with also has 400+ years of memories of one of the most accomplished men to ever exist.
________
Maryjane (http://maryjanes.info/)

GonzoTheGreat
12-03-2010, 09:25 AM
Mat might have memories from a longer total time span. And, as far as we know now, all those memories are from men too. Would've been interesting if they'd stuffed some of Birgitte's memories in his head, I guess. But either they did not think of it, or, more likely, they could not do that.

Grig
12-03-2010, 11:04 AM
I myself can provide quite strong enough (partly statistical) evidence on the point

So, your "partly statistical" (I won't bother bringing up sample size because it's a horribly obvious deficiency) evidence doesn't discuss other factors for women being more general in their studies and men being more specialist. Do you take into account that perhaps there is more pressure for women to seek teaching roles instead of research roles? This would lead to a focus on more generalized education, and is squarely on the nurture side as opposed to the nature side. I believe your motives are great, but you're still doing the same jumping to just-so stories that support pre-conceived social narratives based on data that possesses many confounding factors and questionable poorly or not at all supported causality (not to mention taking students at one school in one geographical location as representative of their entire genders).

Oh, and I should be explicit that I don't have great issue with RJ's handling of gender issues. Yeah, I have plenty of nitpicks and several things that Just Bug Me, but at large he did go out of his way to make us consider and recognize biases, as well as providing strong and weak characters of both genders.

kamarile
12-03-2010, 11:58 AM
I'm not sure why some of you guys are getting so riled up at the notion that the WoT is, yeah, kinda sexist. Obviously I'm not calling you sexist for liking and reading it... after all, I'm arguing about WoT on the internet, and I'm an adult, so who am I to judge. I'm only calling sexist the posters that are saying blatantly sexist things, and acting like he ladies in this discussion are bing disingenuous for not agreeing outright that women are, say, less capable of rationality than men.

And for those of you saying I'm dissing WoT's gender equality, or its egalitarian societies, as not being egalitarian enouh, that is not what I have been saying. Obviously WoT is far from the most sexist fantasy series out there. The cheescake factor, at its most, is extremely mild, and the only rapes I can think of happen offscreen, and are merely alluded to. It's not snsationalist or exploitative in te manner of, say, a Terry Goodkind book.

But I will say this... as many chill people as read the WoT, theredoes seem to be a subset of young male fans that react with approval or glee every time some bitch gets the smackdown in the books, or complain when (mostly female) characters don't unquestioningly follow Rand's orders. It's the same sort of guys who show up to their freshman year of college complaining about how sexist it is that there's a Womens Studies department, but not a Mens Studies one. Whether this subset of fans is particular to WoT, or to genre books in general, I can't say. But I'm definitely getting that vibe here.

Toss the dice
12-03-2010, 12:55 PM
No offense, but that's not really true. Can't think of any good examples to counter your generalisation right now, though.

I use "no offense" for when I say things that could be offensive to someone when I don't intend offense, or more often something that could easily be misconstrued or interpreted in a different manner than I intended it to be.

When dealing with differences between genders, many people automatically give a knee-jerk reaction and get offended. I figured "no offense" was an appropriate beginning to my admittedly blunt post. While I may have overshot on the differences, and it goes without saying there are exceptions to everything in life, there are also very real differences between the sexes. Other than what's between our legs.

Male and female brains are different with strengths and weaknesses for each, we have different chemicals running through our bodies, like testesterone and estrogen. Other than many of the differences being in how we were raised, many are also due to evolution. Physical differences like females having thinner skin than males, being something like half as strong on average, females having more body fat on average, and many many others, some big others subtle. There's the emotional differences. How much of this is simply built in, and how much of it is due to how we were raised? Men hold in emotions much, much more than women do, so at least on the surface females are considered much more emotional. However, how often do males cry, we'll say just for the sake of crying. How often do females (we'll say they're alone) just break down and cry? Males? While my personal tally of 0 may be a little off from the male average, I'd say females do it about 10,000 times more often than us.

I'm no expert in the differences between men and women and I'm not a scholar in psychology, anatomy, evolution, etc. Other than my education, all I have to go by is my own experiences, and there are many differences between genders, large and small alike. And while RJ has gone extreme on his comparisons between men and women, to an extent they are obviously based on a measure of truth.

As for my well-received little bit about feminism, that was simply something I believed. Feminism is a hugely important factor in today's modern world, for both women and men. I figured it deserved a mention for its world-changing influences. What I said concerning women essentially being way more easy than they have been in the past and how I like it - is absolute truth. What? do you expect me to dislike that?

Casabamelon
12-03-2010, 01:37 PM
But I will say this... as many chill people as read the WoT, theredoes seem to be a subset of young male fans that react with approval or glee every time some bitch gets the smackdown in the books, or complain when (mostly female) characters don't unquestioningly follow Rand's orders.

And there's a similar group that screams misogyny, too. Unfortunately, by this point, most people have perfected their knee-jerk reactions and argue against abstract ideas, not what people are actually saying.

And, yes, I'm self aware enough to realize I do this, too.
________
BLACK AMATEUR TUBE (http://www.fucktube.com/)

kamarile
12-03-2010, 06:05 PM
:rolleyes:And there's a similar group that screams misogyny, too. Unfortunately, by this point, most people have perfected their knee-jerk reactions and argue against abstract ideas, not what people are actually saying.

And, yes, I'm self aware enough to realize I do this, too.

I don't think my opinions are kneejerk responses. I've been reading this series for about 14 years, which has given me a long time to think about issues like these. I've also been on the Internet for about that long, and a girl the entire time, which gives me some reason to know what I'm talking about when it comes to Internet misogyny.

I have been trying to address specific posters and their arguments direectly here, so I admit to being a little bit confused when you say that these knee-jerk responses are directed at strawmen and abstractions. Just so I have some clarification: are you telling me that my rolling my eyes at the way an older, male author characterizes female characters, and commenting on this in a public forum, is the moral or intellectual equivalent of making vast, offensive and insulting generalizations about the emotional and intellectual limitations of half of yhe world's population?

Terez
12-03-2010, 06:47 PM
and i'm still waiting to hear why people think Mat went into the Tower in the first place.
Not sure why you're waiting since we've been talking about it since KOD at least. I usually emphasize the Thom bit, but Infidel summed it up pretty well. I was pleased and surprised that Mat took his debt to Moiraine seriously when the time came.

There was one specific thing that jumped out at me in ToM. I don't have the quote here, but when Gawyn has his epiphany and goes rushing back to Tar Valon to be a real warder to Egwene, he is thinking very specifically that what he needs to do is accept that his role is to stand in Egwene's shadow and help her do her world-saving thing, rather than trying to be the glorious hero himself. As an exercise, try gender-flipping that one in your head.
The thought probably already occurred to most of us. That's part of what some people hate about Egwene; I see it more as a reflection of the world RJ built which is supposedly biased more toward women than toward men as far as positions of authority go, because for the past 3000 years all of the channelers have been female. He has said in interview that when men get all pissy about this sort of thing that they should take the time to think about what it's been like for women in our Age all this time.

I will say this... as many chill people as read the WoT, theredoes seem to be a subset of young male fans that react with approval or glee every time some bitch gets the smackdown in the books, or complain when (mostly female) characters don't unquestioningly follow Rand's orders.
Agreed.

Also, TtD is a troll. Always has been, though he is sort of on and off.

morat'corlm
12-03-2010, 06:56 PM
I use "no offense" for when I say things that could be offensive to someone when I don't intend offense, or more often something that could easily be misconstrued or interpreted in a different manner than I intended it to be.Perhaps you should have used it again for this post, and (just to be on the safe side) all future posts involving declaiming at length on something you're "not an expert" on and involves extrapolating "personal tallies" to populations of billions.

FelixPax
12-04-2010, 12:19 AM
Didn't Brandon say that RJ wrote the Ghenji scene?

Brandon's claim of eighteen rewrites for TofM book wasn't enough...
Regardless whoever wrote scene, it should have been re-written anew.

Just because RJ wrote something should not have meant to Brandon, Harriet and Maria, everything is absolutely perfect with Jordan's drafts. Hell, the Prologue to Winter's Heart was re-written EIGHTY times, according to RJ in an interview.


From a literary point of view, Towers of Midnight should not have been released in 2010. Tor Inc and the authors didn't follow Blizzard Inc's motto at all: "when it is done."

Isabel
12-04-2010, 12:31 AM
Just because RJ wrote something should not have meant to Brandon, Harriet and Maria, everything is absolutely perfect with Jordan's drafts. Hell, the Prologue to Winter's Heart was re-written EIGHTY times, according to RJ in an interview.



I absolutely disagree with saying that all RJ scenes should be rewritten by Brandon......
RJ's drafts should be edited and checked for errors, but after that it's my opinion to leave it mostly alone.
Even if it was just one of the first drafts.
If Brandon rewrites a scene by RJ 100 times, than were is RJ in the book?
Wot is RJ and should stay RJ's.

jana
12-04-2010, 03:43 AM
RJ's drafts should be edited and checked for errors, but after that it's my opinion to leave it mostly alone.
Even if it was just one of the first drafts.
Wot is RJ and should stay RJ's.

I agree. I'd rather have an imperfect RJ version over anything else.

Jonai
12-04-2010, 04:18 AM
I agree. I'd rather have an imperfect RJ version over anything else.

Ditto and stuff.

yasiru89
12-04-2010, 04:27 AM
So, your "partly statistical" (I won't bother bringing up sample size because it's a horribly obvious deficiency) evidence doesn't discuss other factors for women being more general in their studies and men being more specialist. Do you take into account that perhaps there is more pressure for women to seek teaching roles instead of research roles? This would lead to a focus on more generalized education, and is squarely on the nurture side as opposed to the nature side. I believe your motives are great, but you're still doing the same jumping to just-so stories that support pre-conceived social narratives based on data that possesses many confounding factors and questionable poorly or not at all supported causality (not to mention taking students at one school in one geographical location as representative of their entire genders).

Oh, and I should be explicit that I don't have great issue with RJ's handling of gender issues. Yeah, I have plenty of nitpicks and several things that Just Bug Me, but at large he did go out of his way to make us consider and recognize biases, as well as providing strong and weak characters of both genders.

I've had to defend this more than I would have cared to, but on the last count- no, nothing you've said constitutes a confounding factor. For one thing I remember stating clearly that this was a nation-wide phenomena I was alluding to (top scorer in the country), and since more or less as many females as males make it through both stages I mentioned and have to specialise after the first stage, almost none of what your exception-begging blather applies. If you have trouble accepting the particular anecdote, simply ignore it, I believe I later gave references to more solid examples where differences have been observed (and not always in the ways social prejudices dictate).

As for 'glee every time some bitch gets the smackdown' that kamarile put, if by 'some' the criteria to be met is being annoyingly haughty- indeed, that is rather satisfying. But there are plenty of characters who've not been this way that I did not like 'pulled down' so to speak- like Lanfear and Morgase (though I think the latter is a better person now for the trials she's endured, despite not having deserved any of it).
As for not following Rand unquestioningly, it's more a matter of people being grossly unjustified (in that they have obviously wrong or very vague ideas even as to where to start) in believing their way of 'guiding' the course of events in indisputably the best.

manolin
12-04-2010, 06:24 AM
the discussion here seems like it would have been appreciated if DO's touched upon saidar - one would have enigmatic, neurotic in a mysterious way, world altering, women channellers.

kamarile
12-04-2010, 01:52 PM
I like to use it almost mockingly, which I suppose just makes me more of an asshole.

I use "no offense" for when I say things that could be offensive to someone when I don't intend offense, or more often something that could easily be misconstrued or interpreted in a different manner than I intended it to be.

I hate to prolong this by feeding trolls, but you really should stop being so disingenuous. I also love the quote in your sig... it proves my point every time you make a post.

As for 'glee every time some bitch gets the smackdown' that kamarile put, if by 'some' the criteria to be met is being annoyingly haughty- indeed, that is rather satisfying.

My innate female aptitude for language means I can come up with a great word that means 'annoyingly haughty...' it's called 'uppity.' You're not exactly helping your case.


the discussion here seems like it would have been appreciated if DO's touched upon saidar - one would have enigmatic, neurotic in a mysterious way, world altering, women channellers.

Mark my words, this is how the series will end. The DO will turn out to have been female all along, and Rand will win the Last Battle by turning her over his knee and spanking her... thus setting everything to rights.

(you can't say it hasn't been foreshadowed)

DahLliA
12-04-2010, 02:17 PM
I'm guessing this is the right thread to link http://www.anvari.org/fun/Gender/Women_Jokes.html in.

*ducks behind the ESC-couch*

kamarile
12-04-2010, 03:02 PM
The comments on that site make yasiru89 look like Andrea Dworkin.

gholam
12-04-2010, 09:59 PM
I hated the rescue scene in the Tower of Ghenjei. Totally forced, with a feeling of hurry-up-and-let-me-get-this-written feeling to it. No passion. Moiraine comes out like a schoolgirl. BS had evidently been reading up on Ingtar saving everyone and decided to put it all on Noal/Jain because he couldn't come up with a good way to sacrifice him. Mat getting all sappy about Moiraine, and then the proposal...I yakked in mouth a little. It was the worst part of the book for me. I would rather hear about Elayne in the tub again then hear about a naked, cloak wrapped Moiraine posing for Mat and Thom and getting her raunch on so she could bond Thom and then hunt for Mat. Next thing you know, Caddie will bond Tam.



That's exactly what I felt.
I would like to add that the Gholam killing scene was no great shakes either. All in all, two of the most awaited scenes fizzled out and I felt cheated reading page after page about how fast Perrin ran in the wolf dream.

Frenzy
12-04-2010, 11:05 PM
I would like to add that the Gholam killing scene was no great shakes either.
The gholam going thru a gateway bugged me a bit too. Don't gholam disrupt weaves? i suppose you could say the edges of the gateway are the weaves and the middle is just the donut hole, but other shadowspawn are impacted by going thru gateways (lethal to trollocs and all that). So there must be something to the donut hole that causes the lethality.

yasiru89
12-04-2010, 11:11 PM
My innate female aptitude for language means I can come up with a great word that means 'annoyingly haughty...' it's called 'uppity.' You're not exactly helping your case.

I assure you, if there was a male character that was similarly 'uppity' I'd have been happy to see him put in his place too. But again, the historical context of the series makes the situation unlikely.

PS- Not Andrea Dworkin, I have nothing against pornography whenever it is not immediately exploitive. :p

finn
12-05-2010, 06:27 AM
The gholam going thru a gateway bugged me a bit too. Don't gholam disrupt weaves? i suppose you could say the edges of the gateway are the weaves and the middle is just the donut hole, but other shadowspawn are impacted by going thru gateways (lethal to trollocs and all that). So there must be something to the donut hole that causes the lethality.

Yes, that bit did nag at me. I always wondered whether a deathgate could kill a gholam as it is shadowspawn. Saidin and saidar differ in how they're used to make gateways. Rand says he folds the pattern to bring two locations together, then bores a hole (like a wormhole) from one to another. Egwene's way was to make a similarity between any two places. I thought the Saidar method might have weaves in the donut hole but Mat's Traveled both ways and his medallion didn't dissipate those gateways so there's no reason why the gholam should.

As for the shadowspawn vulnerability, we'd have to assume gholam are exempt. Perhaps that immediate transition from one part of the pattern to another is what kills trollocs. There's nothing else but the distortion of the pattern in the donut hole that would explain it. But then why can't they Travel by skimming unless the black space there is not really like the ways as has been suggested?

Infidel
12-05-2010, 09:46 AM
The gholam going thru a gateway bugged me a bit too. Don't gholam disrupt weaves? i suppose you could say the edges of the gateway are the weaves and the middle is just the donut hole, but other shadowspawn are impacted by going thru gateways (lethal to trollocs and all that). So there must be something to the donut hole that causes the lethality.

From Brandon's Paris signing:

"We discussed the gholam, if someone had pushed it through a gateway, would it have just died? Brandon said that gholam CAN go THROUGH gateways (from one place to another). Gholam are shadowspawn of a more perfected kind. It would have been way too easy to kill if you just needed to shove it through a gateway (to another place). However, falling through the skimming gateway for a few minutes did kill the gholam and it is really dead and its not going to show up again. This makes me wonder now if one of rand/logain's deathgates would have killed it but I didn't think to ask at the time."

This makes me think that the donut hole is the killing factor.

...mmmm, fatal donut holes.... Oops, got distracted.

Typical shadowspawn, being lesser creatures, are killed instantly, whereas the gholam needed an extended, cumulative exposure to receive a lethal dose.

Lastly, I don't think the deathgates would have affected the gholam. They seem to be a standard gateway set to open and close in a very rapid sequence, much like a strobe light. The gholam would have to have been cycled through a deathgate for several minutes in order to be killed, and I just don't see that as being at all likely to happen.

...mmmm, fatal donut holes....

Enigma
12-05-2010, 09:55 AM
Could an ordinary gateway close if say a Gholam was sticking its arm out? I can get the fact that it does not disrupt the weave as you might say the weave is the doorframe of the gateway and it does not touch that but if the gateway was closing and it touched the Gholam what would happen then?

Madgod
12-05-2010, 10:02 AM
Could an ordinary gateway close if say a Gholam was sticking its arm out? I can get the fact that it does not disrupt the weave as you might say the weave is the doorframe of the gateway and it does not touch that but if the gateway was closing and it touched the Gholam what would happen then?

I would expect the Gholam would dissipate the weaves making the gateway as it closed. However, since it was closing I doubt the channeler would care that much, and it probably would still take the Gholam's arm off still.

Seeker
12-05-2010, 02:55 PM
I don't think the weaves that create a gateway, actually touch the gateway itself. I think the gateway is a purely physical phenomenon and thus the gholam and Mat can both pass through it.

Let me explain.

Men fold the pattern and bore a whole.

Women alter the weave of the pattern to make two places similar.

In each case, threads of saidin/saidar are working directly with the pattern. They're not touching the physical world but the pattern itself. The "hole," the gateway is just a manifestation of what happens when you twist the patten like that.

The edge, (the silver line) of the gateway is essentially an event-horizon. Like the edge of a wormhole. As such, if the gholam touches that, he'll be sliced good and proper and so will Mat. Because it's not a weave. It's a manifestation of warped space.

Also, Mat's web-breaker medallion will be cut in half if he swings it through the edge of a gateway.

Toss the dice
12-05-2010, 02:59 PM
Also, TtD is a troll. Always has been, though he is sort of on and off.

Sorry Terez, not a troll. I am maybe a little blunt, and have no problem saying what I think about something. I'm guessing I am "on and off" to you depending on whether or not you agree with a particular post. You always have been a self-centered person, at least as far as one could be through a simple message board. Some people have different opinions, its a way of life.

yasiru89
12-05-2010, 05:09 PM
Didn't Rand once remark on Asmodean being vague about how gateways apparently having little to do with the Power? I think it's just their making and holding them open at a particular place that requires the Power. The thing itself is not a weave.

Birgitte
12-05-2010, 06:04 PM
I'm guessing this is the right thread to link http://www.anvari.org/fun/Gender/Women_Jokes.html in.

*ducks behind the ESC-couch*

lol... Dahl, you are a terrible young man. You're lucky we like you (and that you're hiding behind the ESC couch). Is the cooler still back there, by the way? Reading this thread makes me want a beer.

As for Moiraine... sigh...

As those of you who were at JordanCon know, I was among those who really thought Moiraine was better off staying dead. What is the point of a heroic sacrifice if it's not permanent? Plus, if none of the main characters die and stay dead, where's the drama in the fight scenes? Why do we care about them fighting if we know there won't be any consequences? The battles are different because the leaders deal with the emotional consequences of sending people to die on their behalf. It would've been better had Moiraine contributed in any way to their escape. I wanted her to figure out the way out. Moiraine's weapon has always been knowledge*, rather than anything else. She should have been shown using it.

The Tower of Ghenjei scene was destined to be a let down. There was just too much mental build-up for it to end up any other way. I'm looking at you, Taer. You should not have been surprised that you didn't like it. The whole thing was case in point why I hate spoilers. You know what's coming and it sucks.

Thom and Moiraine bug me. Not because I don't think they could eventually spend time with each other and fall in love or whatever. It's just because it's another example of people falling in love because RJ said so. It's like Rand and Elayne, part 2. Yuck. It naturally follows that I hate their lovey dovey scene, but mostly because it feels fake to me that they're in love.

RJ's depiction of women has always made me wonder if he hates Harriet a bit. He always said that all of his female characters were based on her and she seems WAY too nice for that to be true. ;) /end tongue-in-cheek

Meh, RJ gets points for trying not to be sexist in my book. Even if I do enjoy making fun of him for it.

*This is why I don't care about her giving up the angreal. Moiraine's strength is her smarts, not saidar. Sure, she starts out stronger in the power than a lot of people, but now she is way outclassed by almost all the big players, and would be even if her channeling ability hadn't been diminished. Any two-bit twit can channel. Moiraine's smart, wise and clever. And she knows it.

Seeker
12-05-2010, 07:16 PM
As for Moiraine... sigh...

As those of you who were at JordanCon know, I was among those who really thought Moiraine was better off staying dead. What is the point of a heroic sacrifice if it's not permanent? Plus, if none of the main characters die and stay dead, where's the drama in the fight scenes? Why do we care about them fighting if we know there won't be any consequences? The battles are different because the leaders deal with the emotional consequences of sending people to die on their behalf. It would've been better had Moiraine contributed in any way to their escape. I wanted her to figure out the way out. Moiraine's weapon has always been knowledge*, rather than anything else. She should have been shown using it.

I'm sorry, my love, but I have to disagree with most of that.

First and foremost, it's well established from practically the moment that Moiraine disappears that she knew exactly what was going to happen to her. Since she knew she was going to survive the trip through the stone doorway, it was never her intention to sacrifice her life.

But that doesn't mean she didn't make a heroic sacrifice.

She knew everything that would happen up to the point where Mat rescued her and that means that she also knew the Finns would feed on her, drain her channeling ability. She knew what she was giving up and she paid the price willingly.

In some ways, this is a sacrifice much worse than death and it IS permanent. Yes, she has the angreal but the angreal is not really a part of her the way her innate abilities were. It can be lost or stolen. Moiraine has lost a great deal and endured torture for MONTHS to keep Rand alive. This is not enough of a sacrifice for you?

Also, she was beaten and unconscious.

As to main characters dying. Yes, that would be an improvement. Most of the fight scenes lacked tension. I know! Let's kill Elayne!




The Tower of Ghenjei scene was destined to be a let down. There was just too much mental build-up for it to end up any other way. I'm looking at you, Taer. You should not have been surprised that you didn't like it. The whole thing was case in point why I hate spoilers. You know what's coming and it sucks.

Am I the only one who enjoyed those scenes. (There was more than one) That place was spooky. And hearing the foxes laughing distantly in the background. *Shivers*

Honestly, guys what were you expecting to happen?

They went in, they found their way to Moiraine, they got out. That was pretty much exactly what I've been expecting to happen for years. And it explains the ashenderai. I mean, spear did seem pretty out of place until Mat used it to escape. He didn't ask for a spear so why had they given him one?

Well, the scene explains it. A nice plot twist too. And no it's not deus-ex machina since Mat had to puzzle out the purpose of the spear. It didn't just magically open a doorway for him of its own accord. He had to figure out how to use it.

Really? What were you guys expecting? Long deliberations with the snakes and the foxes? Some kind of exploratory trek through across their twisted planet? Everything outside of "Earth" is a side-story at best. You don't see any trips to the Ogier Homeworld. It's not relevant, not part of the story. So, what were you guys expecting?

Go in, get Moiraine, get out.

The Finnworld scenes were dark and spooky and it worked.


Thom and Moiraine bug me. Not because I don't think they could eventually spend time with each other and fall in love or whatever. It's just because it's another example of people falling in love because RJ said so. It's like Rand and Elayne, part 2. Yuck. It naturally follows that I hate their lovey dovey scene, but mostly because it feels fake to me that they're in love.

Yeah, agreed, but this kind of crap has been going on since Book 4, so it's not like you didn't see it coming.

Birgitte
12-05-2010, 07:33 PM
I'm sorry, my love, but I have to disagree with most of that.

...


Yes, dear. Didn't we agree to disagree on that one?


In some ways, this is a sacrifice much worse than death and it IS permanent. Yes, she has the angreal but the angreal is not really a part of her the way her innate abilities were. It can be lost or stolen. Moiraine has lost a great deal and endured torture for MONTHS to keep Rand alive. This is not enough of a sacrifice for you?

Also, she was beaten and unconscious.

As to main characters dying. Yes, that would be an improvement. Most of the fight scenes lacked tension. I know! Let's kill Elayne!


She can still channel. The amount of saidar she can control isn't going to make much of a difference in her character. She was weaker than all the main players as it was. Now she's even weaker than that, but so what? What's the real difference? She'd have to defer to more Aes Sedai, if she decided to follow that tradition, which I doubt. She's never lived as an Aes Sedai, among Aes Sedai. I don't think she'll start now. There will be a bit of a mental adjustment to having to use the angreal to channel large amounts of the power, but how is it really THAT bad? Months of torture, sure, bad, but she wasn't broken and it just doesn't have the punch that a heroic death does.

And I rather like the idea of Elayne getting herself vegetable-ized. There's so much foreshadowing! ;)



Am I the only one who enjoyed those scenes. (There was more than one) That place was spooky. And hearing the foxes laughing distantly in the background. *Shivers*

Honestly, guys what were you expecting to happen?

They went in, they found their way to Moiraine, they got out. That was pretty much exactly what I've been expecting to happen for years. And it explains the ashenderai. I mean, spear did seem pretty out of place until Mat used it to escape. He didn't ask for a spear so why had they given him one?

Well, the scene explains it. A nice plot twist too. And no it's not deus-ex machina since Mat had to puzzle out the purpose of the spear. It didn't just magically open a doorway for him of its own accord. He had to figure out how to use it.

Really? What were you guys expecting? Long deliberations with the snakes and the foxes? Some kind of exploratory trek through across their twisted planet? Everything outside of "Earth" is a side-story at best. You don't see any trips to the Ogier Homeworld. It's not relevant, not part of the story. So, what were you guys expecting?

Go in, get Moiraine, get out.

The Finnworld scenes were dark and spooky and it worked.


I enjoyed them. I'm just saying that if you build them up in your mind to be the awesomest of all that is awesome, of course the reality is going to fall short. And I like having an explanation for Mat's spear.



Yeah, agreed, but this kind of crap has been going on since Book 4, so it's not like you didn't see it coming.

Yes, I did. That doesn't mean I can't complain about it. No truce with the shadow, no letting bad writing slide!

Seeker
12-05-2010, 07:39 PM
She can still channel. The amount of saidar she can control isn't going to make much of a difference in her character. She was weaker than all the main players as it was. Now she's even weaker than that, but so what? What's the real difference? She'd have to defer to more Aes Sedai, if she decided to follow that tradition, which I doubt. She's never lived as an Aes Sedai, among Aes Sedai. I don't think she'll start now. There will be a bit of a mental adjustment to having to use the angreal to channel large amounts of the power, but how is it really THAT bad? Months of torture, sure, bad, but she wasn't broken and it just doesn't have the punch that a heroic death does.

When she has to perform a Hiro Nakamura squint just to light a fire? Yeah, I'd say that counts as a loss.

She effectively can't channel anymore. Not to do anything useful and that affects her character. Yes, the angreal is a way around it, but as I said, she'll never be guaranteed of being allowed to keep that thing.

Birgitte
12-05-2010, 07:47 PM
When she has to perform a Hiro Nakamura squint just to light a fire? Yeah, I'd say that counts as a loss.

She effectively can't channel anymore. Not to do anything useful and that affects her character. Yes, the angreal is a way around it, but as I said, she'll never be guaranteed of being allowed to keep that thing.

It doesn't affect her character that much. What's she gonna do? Be all "Oh, I can't channel. Woe is me. I'm useless now"? Her part in fighting the Last Battle isn't going to be based on her strength in the power. As I said, it wouldn't be practical even if she didn't lose any strength.

What do you think the difference it'd make in her character is?

finn
12-05-2010, 11:56 PM
I don't think the weaves that create a gateway, actually touch the gateway itself. I think the gateway is a purely physical phenomenon and thus the gholam and Mat can both pass through it.

Let me explain.

Men fold the pattern and bore a whole.

Women alter the weave of the pattern to make two places similar.

In each case, threads of saidin/saidar are working directly with the pattern. They're not touching the physical world but the pattern itself. The "hole," the gateway is just a manifestation of what happens when you twist the patten like that.

The edge, (the silver line) of the gateway is essentially an event-horizon. Like the edge of a wormhole. As such, if the gholam touches that, he'll be sliced good and proper and so will Mat. Because it's not a weave. It's a manifestation of warped space.

Also, Mat's web-breaker medallion will be cut in half if he swings it through the edge of a gateway.

But we know that there are weaves that are present and visible even after the gateway is made. The weaves can be seen, memorized, picked at to unravel, forced open when about to close and their residues read by those with the talent even after they're dismissed. Clearly the weaves aren't in the 'donut hole' or Mat's medallion or the gholam would have unraveled it. So where else could they be but at the edges?

Belazamon
12-06-2010, 01:11 AM
But we know that there are weaves that are present and visible even after the gateway is made. The weaves can be seen, memorized, picked at to unravel, forced open when about to close and their residues read by those with the talent even after they're dismissed. Clearly the weaves aren't in the 'donut hole' or Mat's medallion or the gholam would have unraveled it. So where else could they be but at the edges?
That's actually fairly reasonable. The weave isn't in the center of the hole, it's just the thing at the edges that's holding open the hole. Kinda like clothespins in the fabric of Reality.

Now, I'm not sure that works with the way Gateways have been described. But it's reasonable, at least.

GonzoTheGreat
12-06-2010, 04:50 AM
Yeah, agreed, but this kind of crap has been going on since Book 4, so it's not like you didn't see it coming.Book 2, at least.
"Moiraine said I was still alive, did she? Is she with you, then?"
Rand shook his head. To his surprise, Thom seemed disappointed.
"Too bad, in a way. She's a fine woman, even if she is ..." He left it unsaid.May be earlier examples still. I am not excessively observant when it comes to romancy thingies.

jana
12-06-2010, 04:56 AM
Am I the only one who enjoyed those scenes. (There was more than one) That place was spooky. And hearing the foxes laughing distantly in the background. *Shivers*

Honestly, guys what were you expecting to happen?

They went in, they found their way to Moiraine, they got out. That was pretty much exactly what I've been expecting to happen for years.

No. It easily met my expectations. It actually took more chapters than I thought it would. I always expected the rescue to be quick.

yasiru89
12-06-2010, 07:55 AM
To hell with what the Hall thinks! Moiraine paid a price for it and so did Mat, it's hers for true (though Cynfear might claim different)!
About what made Moiraine awesome, it wasn't even her knowledge (I've said before that she was faking half of what she said, and she was- either through generalisations she was hesitant to clarify on or simply acting mysterious), it's more her drive and force of personality. Something Rand remembers Lan telling him was something along the lines of 'the time to sound most sure is when you are least', and Moiraine perfectly embodies that, thereby spurring those frightened or beaten down into lethargy along.

The Immortal One
12-06-2010, 07:57 AM
What do you think the difference it'd make in her character is?

I think that is part of the point.

Her character isn't greatly affected, with the exception of any after-effects of being tortured for months (nightmares perhaps).

The main point (I would think) of the 'heroic sacrifice' was to show that, no matter what, Moiraine would do everything in her power to ensure the Dragon Reborn lives to fight the Last Battle. Her knowledge of her coming sacrifice allowed her character to grow; to allow her to guide Rand as she wished and teach him some of the things he needed to know before the actual sacrifice, between Rhuidean and Cairhien.

Another part of it is the agnsty backlash of Moiraine's disappearance to Rand's psyche; his list of 'women who have died for me' and Moiraine's name being written in flame, her name being burned into his soul. Eventually allowing his character to grow into what it is at the end of Book 12 and perhaps beyond.

And of course not having Moiraine nearby forced Rand to grow in other ways too; without Moiraine looking over his shoulder he had to learn how to look after himself. It also might have helped his case, politically, with some factions that he did not have an Aes Sedai watching over him all the time.

In the same way Moiraine's absence also left Mat freer to leave and seek his own fortune (or Fortuona?).

Another part is explained in The Shadow Rising:
BOOK 4: The Shadow Rising
Chapter 16: Leavetakings
"Nynaeve, why did you do that? He was ready to go with you. I know you want more than anything to break him free of Moiraine. Do not try to deny it."
Nynaeve did not try. Instead she fussed with her dress, and smoothed the coverlet on the bed. "Not like that," she said finally. "I mean him to be mine. All of him. I will not have him remembering a broken oath to Moiraine. I will not have that between us. For him, as well as for myself."
"But will it be any different if you bring him to ask Moiraine to release him from his bond?" Egwene asked. "Lan is the kind of man who will see it as much the same thing. All that leaves is to somehow make her let him go of her own accord. How can you manage that?"

Moiraine's 'heroic sacrifice' allowed Lan's bond to be passed more smoothly; allows Lan's character to grow into what he is meant to be.

From the same point, it allows Nynaeve to grow past her hatred of Moiraine; nearly everything Nynaeve did in the first four books was driven by that hatred. Once Moiraine 'died' Nynaeve could move past that and become more what she is meant to be.

There are undoubtedly dozens of other characters and plot points which were affected by Moiraine's 'heroic sacrifice' (for example she is now seen as a legend as much as Cadsuane or more, amongst Aes Sedai at least); but as I started off saying, her foreknowledge of her fate allowed her character to grow before the sacrifice and we haven't seen how learning of everything that has happened will change her character between now and the Last Battle.

So, no. Her character wasn't changed much at all by her actual sacrifice. Which just goes to show how strong her character is - that she wasn't much changed by all the pains and hardships she faced in her months of torture.

sleepinghour
12-06-2010, 09:38 AM
To hell with what the Hall thinks! Moiraine paid a price for it and so did Mat, it's hers for true (though Cynfear might claim different)!

Also, whatever Moiraine ends up using the angreal for will without a doubt be more important than anything the Tower would do with it. Same with Cadsuane's paralis-net and Nynaeve's jewelry defense set. If the Tower had gotten them, they'd have ended up in a dusty store room with the other *angreal.

Toss the dice
12-06-2010, 11:51 AM
To hell with what the Hall thinks! Moiraine paid a price for it and so did Mat, it's hers for true (though Cynfear might claim different)!
About what made Moiraine awesome, it wasn't even her knowledge (I've said before that she was faking half of what she said, and she was- either through generalisations she was hesitant to clarify on or simply acting mysterious), it's more her drive and force of personality. Something Rand remembers Lan telling him was something along the lines of 'the time to sound most sure is when you are least', and Moiraine perfectly embodies that, thereby spurring those frightened or beaten down into lethargy along.

I agree.

She is the WoT's Gandalf. She's the one who began everything and took the farmboys out of the Two Rivers. She's the character that, when she is around, you know everything will be okay.

Ishara
12-06-2010, 12:11 PM
I agree.

She is the WoT's Gandalf. She's the one who began everything and took the farmboys out of the Two Rivers. She's the character that, when she is around, you know everything will be okay.

But when did you ever see Gandalf huddled naked in Aragorn's robe staring up at him like a lovesick puppy? Oh right. Never.

I'll grudgugly agree that her sacrifice is bigger than it initially seems, and that it wasn't really about dying. But, i still wish she had stayed "dead" because frankly, all that character growth that she spurred in others would still be effect ad we wopuldn't have diminished what I've agreed is a great sacrifice. To bring her back demeans that to me, and no participation in the LB is going to fix that for me.

But, I will say that i loved the ToG chapters - the inside of the Tower was appropriately creepy and fast-paced for me. It was what happened AFTER that burns me.

ETA: Sleepinghour, do we know for sure that's where Cadsuane got her net? From Norla?

Toss the dice
12-06-2010, 12:36 PM
But when did you ever see Gandalf huddled naked in Aragorn's robe staring up at him like a lovesick puppy? Oh right. Never.Lol. Since when is Thom Aragorn's equivalent? Regardless of whether or not you are kidding, the Gandalf-Moiraine equivalency is not so much about similar things they have done or experienced, but their attitude and fortitude. They are the guardian figures.

I'll grudgugly agree that her sacrifice is bigger than it initially seems, and that it wasn't really about dying. But, i still wish she had stayed "dead" because frankly, all that character growth that she spurred in others would still be effect ad we wopuldn't have diminished what I've agreed is a great sacrifice. To bring her back demeans that to me, and no participation in the LB is going to fix that for me.

Interesting thought process here. So basically, you wish Moiraine would have died because that would have meant more than the sacrifice she did undergo? You have a fetish for martyrs? Or just have a fascination with Muslims? I for one am very happy Moiraine is alive and can't wait to read her parts in Amol.

But, I will say that i loved the ToG chapters - the inside of the Tower was appropriately creepy and fast-paced for me. It was what happened AFTER that burns me.I liked the inside of the ToG as well. On a barely-related note (in this context), there is one thing I somehow noticed about Mat, Thom and Noal's relationship inside the ToG. Mat doesn't seem to treat Noal the same as Thom. When Noal mentions something or says something to Mat, every single time Mat either questions what Noal says, is absent-minded in response, is almost curt in response, or doesn't respond at all. Mat treats what Thom says in the opposite fashion or at least "friendly." I have wondered if this Mat-Noal thing is on purpose, to enhance the effect of Noal's sacrifice and person, because the one time Mat is friendly to him is after he says he's Jain, right before he runs off screaming his battlecry.

I actually picked up on this Mat/Thom/Noal relationship within the ToG my first read-through, and found it odd so I went back through that section to confirm that it happens throughout the whole thing. Did anyone else notice this? It's like Mat isn't being friendly to Noal until the very end, when he makes his sacrifice, and then Mat shows him great respect. I think its on purpose, for the benefit of the reader.

jana
12-06-2010, 01:03 PM
I actually picked up on this Mat/Thom/Noal relationship within the ToG my first read-through, and found it odd so I went back through that section to confirm that it happens throughout the whole thing. Did anyone else notice this? It's like Mat isn't being friendly to Noal until the very end, when he makes his sacrifice, and then Mat shows him great respect. I think its on purpose, for the benefit of the reader.
I think Mat has always been a bit creeped out by him. He appears out of nowhere a lot, and tells idiotic tales about things that don't exist, and acts like he really believes they're real (lol)

I can't wait to read her parts.

I read that as "see" her parts. I think it's time to go to bed.

Toss the dice
12-06-2010, 01:25 PM
I think Mat has always been a bit creeped out by him. He appears out of nowhere a lot, and tells idiotic tales about things that don't exist, and acts like he really believes they're real (lol)

That's true too.

I read that as "see" her parts. I think it's time to go to bed.

Mmm, slender shoulder.

sleepinghour
12-06-2010, 01:28 PM
ETA: Sleepinghour, do we know for sure that's where Cadsuane got her net? From Norla?
I think it's a safe bet from Cadsuane's thoughts about Norla and the ornaments. (The 13th Depository's article about Cadsuane's ornaments (http://13depository.blogspot.com/2002/03/cadsuanes-ornaments.html) has all the relevant quotes and more.)

jana
12-06-2010, 01:36 PM
Mmm, slender shoulder.

pale shoulder, flesh so fine, so fine to tear, to gash the skin; skin to strip, to plait

er, sorry.


I think that was the only time Moiraine almost swore. She rarely even says "Light!"
Faugh!

I'll go on now... why does Moiraine always sound so smart when she's talking about things she doesn't know about? =oP

Even when she admits she has no idea what she's talking about, she uses a bunch of big words that make everyone forget that she admitted it.

"Something left from the Time of Madness, perhaps,” Moiraine replied. “Or even from the War of the Shadow, the War of Power. Something hiding in the Ways so long it can no longer get out. No one, not even among the Ogier, knows how far the Ways run, or how deep. It could even be something of the Ways themselves. As Loial said, the Ways are living things, and all living things have parasites. Perhaps even a creature of the corruption itself, something born of the decay. Something that hates life and light.”
I want Rand to say "Dude, you just made all of that up just now."

Jonai
12-06-2010, 01:41 PM
pale shoulder, flesh so fine, so fine to tear, to gash the skin; skin to strip, to plait

er, sorry.


I think that was the only time Moiraine almost swore. She rarely even says "Light!"


I'll go on now... why does Moiraine always sound so smart when she's talking about things she doesn't know about? =oP


I want Rand to say "Dude, you just made all of that up just now."

Psychopath

jana
12-06-2010, 01:43 PM
Psychopath

Would you quit quotting me before I'm done editing? I change my mind a lot. Now you've gone and pointed it out to everyone.

Anyhow, I was going to add that the EF didn't take biology and don't know what a parasite is. Moiraine knows this and threw the word in there just to distract them. Everything in the paragraph is a "could," "should," "would," "perhaps," a half sentence, or "Loial said it." <3

Jonai
12-06-2010, 01:50 PM
Would you quit quotting me before I'm done editing? I change my mind a lot. Now you've gone and pointed it out to everyone.

Anyhow, I was going to add that the EF didn't take biology and don't know what a parasite is. Moiraine knows this and threw the word in there just to distract them. Everything in the paragraph is a "could," "should," "would," "perhaps," a half sentence, or "Loial said it." <3

Oh I'm not saying anything that people don't already know. *cackle* Aginor took Biology, he took it quite well. Just sayin'.

DahLliA
12-06-2010, 05:46 PM
lol... Dahl, you are a terrible young man. You're lucky we like you (and that you're hiding behind the ESC couch). Is the cooler still back there, by the way? Reading this thread makes me want a beer.


beer? what beer? no beer here

*the sound of an ice cold can being opened and emptied in one big gulp*

guess I should say something on topic too. I liked the Ghenjei scene. and honestly. after being trapped with the finns for 3(4? 5?) years, Moiraine deserves a little break.

I'd totally want a hug after that too :p

morat'corlm
12-06-2010, 07:06 PM
after being trapped with the finns for 3(4? 5?) yearsLess than one year. At least in our world. Not that that changes your point.

Sei'taer
12-06-2010, 07:17 PM
beer? what beer? no beer here

*the sound of an ice cold can being opened and emptied in one big gulp*

guess I should say something on topic too. I liked the Ghenjei scene. and honestly. after being trapped with the finns for 3(4? 5?) years, Moiraine deserves a little break.

I'd totally want a hug after that too :p

Hey! Don't be a beer miser, you schlub. And the Ghenjei scene blew. Moiraine deserved to be dead, just like Lanfear. But that's more an Ishy and Frenzy argument. I just thought the whole scene cam off as too contrived.

Seeker
12-06-2010, 08:36 PM
It doesn't affect her character that much. What's she gonna do? Be all "Oh, I can't channel. Woe is me. I'm useless now"? Her part in fighting the Last Battle isn't going to be based on her strength in the power. As I said, it wouldn't be practical even if she didn't lose any strength.

What do you think the difference it'd make in her character is?

First of all, I'm pretty sure Moiraine is gonna be the second woman linked to Rand at Tarmon Gaidon. Not Elayne or Aviendha. So, her role in Tarmon Gaidon will involve channeling as far as I'm concerned. Since we know one of the women has to guide the circle, my money is on Moiraine.

As for how her character got affected, what's important is that what she lost matters to her. I think you're making the mistake of projecting your personal feelings onto the character. To Moiraine, losing the greater part of her ability to channel is a big deal. It doesn't matter if you don't see it that way because she does.

She gave up something very precious to her to save Rand. That counts for something.

I'm sorry, but I really think that it would have been EASIER on Moiraine if she had died. Almost a year of being fed on by the snakes and the foxes, Strapped to a table, unable to move. It's a miracle that Moiraine is still sane. It's a testament to her strength of will that she came through all that with her wits in tact. Don't tell me she didn't sacrifice anything. She's endured more than any other character in this series save Rand himself.

I'm sorry, I really hate this crap about "oh, she's a princess in a tower." How many people has Moiraine personally saved? How many men owe her their lives? So, what she can't ever be the one in need?

Are we really going to say that it's antifeminist for the female character to need help, to have something bad happen to her that she can't fix herself? Do we really wanna set that precedent?

Is Buffy less strong because Xander had to rescue her from the Master?

How about Vin? Remember when Elend got her out of the dungeoun? Is Vin less strong because of that? No, she's just fallible, capable of being defeated, capable of being beaten. That doesn't make her weak, it makes her INTERESTING. And the same goes for Moiraine. Moiraine has demonstrated strength and wisdom on countless occasions. The fact that she is now in a situation from which she cannot escape on her own only makes her human. And that makes her more fun to read about. Who wants to get behind a hero that always wins?

Juan
12-06-2010, 08:57 PM
@Seeker
Thank you. Girls need their asses saved every now and then too. Remember that Moiraine said near the beginning of the series that Lan and her had saved each other's lives countless times. So now that the true love of her life (Thom and a ta'veren who's awesome and happens to be his friend and who now doesn't dislike Moiraine) saves her, it's not ok? I found nothing wrong with saving scene other than that it felt rushed. My problem wasn't that I expected what was going to happen, my problem was that the way the event was delivered felt rushed.

Sei'taer
12-06-2010, 09:15 PM
@Seeker
Thank you. Girls need their asses saved every now and then too. Remember that Moiraine said near the beginning of the series that Lan and her had saved each other's lives countless times. So now that the true love of her life (Thom and a ta'veren who's awesome and happens to be his friend and who now doesn't dislike Moiraine) saves her, it's not ok? I found nothing wrong with saving scene other than that it felt rushed. My problem wasn't that I expected what was going to happen, my problem was that the way the event was delivered felt rushed.

ding ding ding! You get the stuffed animal of your choice from the top shelf! It was rushed, it was contrived and it was too friggin easy! The 'finns are supposed to be otherworldly future seeing wish granting badasses and Mat runs in, throws some dice, has his eye torn out, loses Jain fucking Farstrider, and zips right on back out again. All in a days work for a ta'varen. And then, to top it all off, he's about as worried about losing his eye as Rand is about losing his hand...it's very un-Mat-like, except for the whole throwing dice thing.

Seeker
12-06-2010, 09:23 PM
But we know that there are weaves that are present and visible even after the gateway is made. The weaves can be seen, memorized, picked at to unravel, forced open when about to close and their residues read by those with the talent even after they're dismissed. Clearly the weaves aren't in the 'donut hole' or Mat's medallion or the gholam would have unraveled it. So where else could they be but at the edges?

Weaves aren't physical things though. They're detectable only by the sixth sense that channelers acquire. A normal person could walk right through a weave and probably never notice (provided that the weave wasn't a trap of some kind).

That said, weaves might not have existence in the physical world per se. Obviously they can affect the physical world, that fact is not in dispute. But that doesn't mean they're in the physical world.

Here's an interesting question.

If I am shielding Egwene, and you - a channeler - walk through the space between myself and Egwene, intersecting with my shield weave, does the shield now transfer to you, freeing her? Is it a line of sight thing?

If yes, then weaves do take up space in the physical world.

IF no, then they are not objects so much as they are instructions in a program. If no, then a weave is like a computer program and each thread of saidin/saidar like a line of code. The weave is programmed to shield Egwene, not you. It doesn't matter if you walk through it, it wasn't meant for you so it won't do anything to you.

If the latter case, then Mat and the Gholam will only disrupt weaves used directly on them and gateways would be exempt from this because the threads that created a gateway weren't directed at Mat or the Gholam.

Juan
12-06-2010, 09:51 PM
@Sei'taer
Yes! Could I get the Roseanne doll? Oh wait.. you said stuffed animal. My bad, honest mistake...

The Immortal One
12-07-2010, 02:00 AM
I think Mat has always been a bit creeped out by him. He appears out of nowhere a lot, and tells idiotic tales about things that don't exist, and acts like he really believes they're real (lol)

It might also be a bit of the old Two Rivers honesty thing. It's fairly obvious, even from Mat's point of view, that Noal is Jain. Perhaps Mat knew this and, because Noal lied about it, Mat kept a little distance between them.

I think it's a safe bet from Cadsuane's thoughts about Norla and the ornaments. (The 13th Depository's article about Cadsuane's ornaments (http://13depository.blogspot.com/2002/03/cadsuanes-ornaments.html) has all the relevant quotes and more.)

Yeah, Cadsuane thinks about how she earned them, one at a time, during her training by Norla.

Anyhow, I was going to add that the EF didn't take biology and don't know what a parasite is. Moiraine knows this and threw the word in there just to distract them. Everything in the paragraph is a "could," "should," "would," "perhaps," a half sentence, or "Loial said it." <3

Do you really think that farmers and shepherds don't know about parasites? Maybe not the word 'parasite' itself, but they would surely know about fleas, tics, and lice.

jana
12-07-2010, 03:53 AM
Do you really think that farmers and shepherds don't know about parasites? Maybe not the word 'parasite' itself, but they would surely know about fleas, tics, and lice.

O.o

Why does it matter if they know about "fleas," "tics," and "lice" if they don't know the word parasite? That's the one she used. =oP

(It was 97% a joke though)

GonzoTheGreat
12-07-2010, 03:57 AM
And then, to top it all off, he's about as worried about losing his eye as Rand is about losing his hand...it's very un-Mat-like, except for the whole throwing dice thing.Quote needed.
His laugh reminded her of their childhood. Just so he had always laughed when his grandest expectations went astray. "Ah, well, I guess it does not matter. It'd still be the Tower, if at second hand. No offense to you." Just so he had moaned over a splinter in his finger and treated a broken leg as if it were nothing at all.It seems to me that he was reacting quite normal for him to the eye business.

jana
12-07-2010, 04:30 AM
heh, I totally just repeated what Gonzo said =oP

yasiru89
12-07-2010, 04:58 AM
Also, whatever Moiraine ends up using the angreal for will without a doubt be more important than anything the Tower would do with it. Same with Cadsuane's paralis-net and Nynaeve's jewelry defense set. If the Tower had gotten them, they'd have ended up in a dusty store room with the other *angreal.
Egwene might find herself relinquishing claims on ter'angreal because of what she was willing to let loose to bind other female channellers to the Tower though.

About Moiraine, I don't even think it's the events after the Tower of Ghenjei that's irritating people, it's just the way it was written. Moiraine sounded a bit off and perhaps people take that for some sort of character weakness- which I sincerely doubt. And I didn't think Moiraine was actually dead after she fell through the arch with Lanfear either- there was no evidence at all to claim either died that time save for the arch melting after they'd fallen through.

GonzoTheGreat
12-07-2010, 05:19 AM
And the fact that Lan thought she had died. Which, as red herrings go, was quite a big one.

morat'corlm
12-07-2010, 06:36 AM
Quote needed.
It seems to me that he was reacting quite normal for him to the eye business.First of all, she's clearly being dismissive and is possibly exaggerating. Second, there's a difference between a broken leg and an oozing hole in your head where your eye used to be! This is not comparable to any of the cuts he's taken in battle, either.

GonzoTheGreat
12-07-2010, 06:47 AM
Yes, it is clearly worse than any injury he's taken so far*, so he is acting even more dismissive than usual. What's your point?

* Except for the business with that dagger, perhaps.

Isabel
12-07-2010, 07:33 AM
About Moiraine, I don't even think it's the events after the Tower of Ghenjei that's irritating people, it's just the way it was written. Moiraine sounded a bit off and perhaps people take that for some sort of character weakness- which I sincerely doubt.

If the Ghenjei scene was actually written by RJ than the character is not off, or doesn't act wrong.
It is only perceived by some people. As I said before, that's because we pay way too much attention to things now.

looqas
12-07-2010, 07:41 AM
I don't think Graendal's survival was BS's invention... I have a hunch that, if anything was outlined by RJ at all, he would have outlined how and when the various remaining Forsaken are killed or dealt with. In general, I'm going to assume, reading these books, that if an even somewhat significant character dies, it was RJ who did it.

RJ had a tendency, also, to introduce some fairly ridiculous shit rather late in the game. I remember reading KoD, and all of a sudden, "hell" is a commonly used slang term for a sleazy inn? Not to mention all the stuff he introduced in Winter's Heart-- the triple bonding, the cleansing of the Source, Far Madding and the wells. The dreamspike as a magical item/plot device is actually a lot more elegant than a lot of those, and it made for a cool action sequence.



How long has it been in realtime since Moiraine and Lanfear took the plunge into Finnland... 15 years? And the prophecies about her rescue were so detailed that everyone had a basic outline about how it was going to go down. Add to that the fact that Mat and Moiraine are favorite characters for most people... and that the Finns were among the coolest parts of the best WoT book, tSR... and that for every book post-FoH, we (or I, at least) would scan the latest WoT release for any mention of Moiraine at all...

how could anything POSSIBLY give that its due?

I confess to feeling some of that kind of disappointment myself, but I think it's not so much the scene's fault, as a problem with the really long buildup to it. Any frustrations that I had with ToM are that everything is playing out the way RJ always said it would-- all the prophecies are being checked off the list, and there are no real Gotcha! moments until the epilogue. But how can I really be disappointed with what I always expected?

I do agree with the eyerolling about Thom and Moiraine's romance. Why RJ needed to pair up every man and woman onscreen just seemed beyond me. Did the two of them ever spend any significant time together after escaping from the Two Rivers? I need to do a re-read.

(On the other hand, tGS really did make Siuan and Bryne a likable couple for me...although it bothers me that RJ had to significantly curtail these women's powers in order to successfully pair them up romantically with men. Siuan's Salidar laundry days always struck me as a low point for RJ's gender relations writing-- doesn't Bryne spank her at some point for doing it wrong? Moiraine cooing that she'll give up her super angreal and all her worldly ambition just to live with Thom Merrillin... I don't know; it got an eyeroll from me. My suspicion is that Sanderson didn't write that bit alone.)


You said it right. The 15 years of waiting killed the scene EVER meeting our expectations. I was merely looking at the execution. It felt like everything was done running, but the alternatives? Shorter and it would have been too short. The longer and it would have felt like dragging out.

Personally I like the pinnacle of it. Using ashanderai as a key.

Interestingly I had a different take how Mat would lose his eye. Many times he mentions that the 'Finns see what he sees, so he half-blinds them somehow mutilating himself. Or accidentally one of Aludra's dragons explode in his face while wearing an eye-patch.

As to how well I really had thought about my theory through shows that why not cover Mat's eyes with the scarf :D

finn
12-07-2010, 10:20 AM
IF no, then they are not objects so much as they are instructions in a program. If no, then a weave is like a computer program and each thread of saidin/saidar like a line of code. The weave is programmed to shield Egwene, not you. It doesn't matter if you walk through it, it wasn't meant for you so it won't do anything to you.

If the latter case, then Mat and the Gholam will only disrupt weaves used directly on them and gateways would be exempt from this because the threads that created a gateway weren't directed at Mat or the Gholam.

Flows of the OP and the weaves they form do exist in physical space even if they are immaterial. They can be seen by channelers and not just sensed. Line of sight plays a part as you need to see the flows to weave them. Weaves affect whatever they are directed at or placed upon but there's no evidence of weaves being selectively programmed as such. A weave that sets someone on fire could well burn anyone else that comes in contact with it, weaves meant for one target can miss and hit someone else with the same effect, etc..

Mat's medallion disrupts flows/weaves of the OP that touch him. Weaves can indirectly be used to throw stuff at Mat because those flows would be touching the thrown object and not him. So it is possible that a gateway's weaves could be disrupted by them.

Toss the dice
12-08-2010, 12:11 PM
First of all, she's clearly being dismissive and is possibly exaggerating. Second, there's a difference between a broken leg and an oozing hole in your head where your eye used to be! This is not comparable to any of the cuts he's taken in battle, either.

That comment of Egwene's from TSR is right on the money. That is Mat's nature, as a great complainer and grumbler of small discomforts, but openly bearing severe wounds very well. This has been mentioned multiple times in the books. Another in TSR was from Rand's POV, dealing with Mat's hanging weal while they're running away from Rhuidean. Rand notes that Mat must be in bad shape indeed because he is silent, as he runs alongside with black weal around his neck and blood streaming down his face.

That isn't to say that Mat DOESN'T care about his missing eye or any of the other serious accidents he has had. Obviously, he cares very much and it bothers him quite a bit. He just doesn't VOICE it, but keeps it to himself. The concept is roughly similar to someone who for example has a loved one pass away. Some people don't openly act sad in that circumstance. They act like nothing's wrong, sometimes to the point where its even absurd - laughing a lot, seeming incredibly happy. It's their own way of dealing with the great loss.

Toss the dice
12-08-2010, 12:21 PM
ding ding ding! You get the stuffed animal of your choice from the top shelf! It was rushed, it was contrived and it was too friggin easy! The 'finns are supposed to be otherworldly future seeing wish granting badasses and Mat runs in, throws some dice, has his eye torn out, loses Jain fucking Farstrider, and zips right on back out again. All in a days work for a ta'varen. And then, to top it all off, he's about as worried about losing his eye as Rand is about losing his hand...it's very un-Mat-like, except for the whole throwing dice thing.

It's too bad Perrin didn't zip right in and back out of Malden the day Faile was captured. Now THAT I would have been fine with.

subwoofer
12-08-2010, 01:54 PM
I

I hated the rescue scene in the Tower of Ghenjei. Totally forced, with a feeling of hurry-up-and-let-me-get-this-written feeling to it. No passion. Moiraine comes out like a schoolgirl. BS had evidently been reading up on Ingtar saving everyone and decided to put it all on Noal/Jain because he couldn't come up with a good way to sacrifice him. Mat getting all sappy about Moiraine, and then the proposal...I yakked in mouth a little. It was the worst part of the book for me. I would rather hear about Elayne in the tub again then hear about a naked, cloak wrapped Moiraine posing for Mat and Thom and getting her raunch on so she could bond Thom and then hunt for Mat. Next thing you know, Caddie will bond Tam.

I have more to gripe about, but I figure I'll read through the threads and post on some of them with my bitching. Have good night all.

Also, I'm cool with Noal kicking out, but why did you have to kill off Hopper? Bastard.

LOL:) I felt the same way- of all the people in the galaxy to kill off, the old wolf- really? Suffa gets a pass and Hopper's number is up? That's just messed.


My issue with Sanderson has never been his pacing. He's a refreshing change of pace from RJ in many respects, and he happens to handle some scenes well which I thought he might have screwed up. Many of the emotional scenes, for instance; I thought the Rand/Tam scene was well done, as was Egwene and Rand speaking (though these might have been RJ passages, I suppose).

But some things he just isn't a talented enough writer to handle, and this was one. He can be as quick or as long as he wants to be, as long as he gives a scene its due. For example, the whole dreamspike bit went on about 5 times as long as necessary, but I wasn't too upset because he did it okay. But you can't complain he doesn't have time for one of the key plot points of the second half of the entire series when he has time to introduce ridiculous other shit.

I am liking Brandon's pace. The last two books flew by. Heck, if RJ kept that pace, we'd have a trilogy on our hands. As for the spike- well, it has got our attention and it seems to be important so I think it got the right amount of press time. As for the other stuff, I dunno assuming that the "ridiculous" is referring to the Perrin plotline going on forever and a day, then yes, that could have been pared down, but Brandon did keep the same pace as RJ so it had the same feel to it.

Hehehe, RJ wrote the Ghenjei scene ;P
It could be that for you it didn't quite fit in with the rest of the book, or that you were just disappointed. That can happen. I remember also a lot of people being disappointed with the way Rand lost his hand. I even found that scene a little bit anti climatic.

I did really liked the Ghenjei scene. I was just disappointed with Rand losing his hand in general, not really the "hows" of it. What honked me about the Tower scene was Mat forgot about the flippin' other half of the Finn. How was that possible? Just a little change of wording and Noal would be alive. Le sigh

Toss the dice
12-08-2010, 04:44 PM
I am liking Brandon's pace. The last two books flew by. Heck, if RJ kept that pace, we'd have a trilogy on our hands.

Assuming it was a trilogy (therefore a completely different story), it obviously wouldn't be half as good as RJ's WOT as we know it. The only books where I thought Jordan's pacing was too slow was PoD-CoT. Remember, the downside to pacing like Brandon's, where he squeezes in stuff and cuts stuff out, is that the story ends up suffering. Sure, you may have liked ToM like I did, but the same events would have been much better to read about if written by Jordan.

I guess I'm just kind of confused by all the people that LOVE Sanderson's pacing, as in they prefer it over Jordan's. I understand why some may prefer it; maybe they enjoy a faster read than some of Jordan's later books, or maybe they simply want to get it over and done with. To me, it's always been about the story. In my opinion, no differences in pacing (and the baggage that comes along with it, like waiting, extra books, etc.) could ever compensate for differences in the story itself and how its written.

Like a video game that has to choose whether to release a flawed product early or wait a few months, while they fix the problems. I can wait.

Granted, this issue really has no relevancy to the WoT anymore. Just saying that personally, between Jordan's story and Sanderson's pacing, the one I prefer is obvious.

yasiru89
12-08-2010, 09:03 PM
If the Ghenjei scene was actually written by RJ than the character is not off, or doesn't act wrong.
It is only perceived by some people. As I said before, that's because we pay way too much attention to things now.
Not the Tower of Ghenjei scenes, the bit after they came out- I'd wager that wasn't RJ. Not that I'm complaining really, just that Moiraine wasn't quite right there from a completely objective point of view (well, perhaps not that in my case, but it would appear I quite like Brandon's writing compared to other people and their grievances).

About the Warder bond, it stood to reason that the entire gateway to the other world closing off might have been responsible. Perhaps people were seeing what they expected.

Weird Harold
12-09-2010, 01:58 AM
Not the Tower of Ghenjei scenes, the bit after they came out- I'd wager that wasn't RJ. Not that I'm complaining really, just that Moiraine wasn't quite right there from a completely objective point of view...

One thing to consider -- and something that makes me belive that Moiraine's proposal WAS RJ's scene -- is that the scene was filtered through Mat's perceptions.

It was nothing like the dignity and serious mein of HIS wedding. :D It was sappy and mushy and nothing like what a couple of old farts like Thom and Moiraine should be acting like -- and the fact that Moiraine is naked and better looking than the tavern-maids he's been scouting to suggest to Talmanes has absolutely nothing to do with his impression either. :p

I felt BS was a bit ham-handed about Mat's careful not-noticing of tavern-maids, but from Mat's world-view, Thom and Moiriane had just the right amount of "Ewwwwwwww, get a room you two," vibe.

Daekyras
12-09-2010, 02:38 AM
That isn't to say that Mat DOESN'T care about his missing eye or any of the other serious accidents he has had. Obviously, he cares very much and it bothers him quite a bit. He just doesn't VOICE it, but keeps it to himself. The concept is roughly similar to someone who for example has a loved one pass away. Some people don't openly act sad in that circumstance. They act like nothing's wrong, sometimes to the point where its even absurd - laughing a lot, seeming incredibly happy. It's their own way of dealing with the great loss.

The problem with this particular argument is that Mat Doesn't voice it to himself. After all, we are privy to his internal monologue in "a rabbit for supper" and he barely mentions the gaping hole in his face....

However, I do think that is Mat-like. He'll probably complain about a splinter in the prologue of aMoL...:D

subwoofer
12-09-2010, 09:51 AM
Assuming it was a trilogy (therefore a completely different story), it obviously wouldn't be half as good as RJ's WOT as we know it. The only books where I thought Jordan's pacing was too slow was PoD-CoT. Remember, the downside to pacing like Brandon's, where he squeezes in stuff and cuts stuff out, is that the story ends up suffering. Sure, you may have liked ToM like I did, but the same events would have been much better to read about if written by Jordan.

I guess I'm just kind of confused by all the people that LOVE Sanderson's pacing, as in they prefer it over Jordan's. I understand why some may prefer it; maybe they enjoy a faster read than some of Jordan's later books, or maybe they simply want to get it over and done with. To me, it's always been about the story. In my opinion, no differences in pacing (and the baggage that comes along with it, like waiting, extra books, etc.) could ever compensate for differences in the story itself and how its written. Well, I never said I prefer this pace over RJs. But let us be honest here, if RJ was still writing, we'd be at book 20 for the ending. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but the reality is- two different authors, two different styles. From what I have seen most everyone rags on tPoD, WH, and CoT. Those books were notorious for RJ's pacing, errant threads etc. Perrin goes full bore into his emo-ing of Faile and it feels like there is much ado about nothing, even though tons happen... Sadin being cleansed for instance...

But the point I am trying to make is that as I am reading through the books, I am thinking to myself that there is no way that RJ is wrapping this series up. By book six, I figured that at the current pace we'd be to book 12. By book 11 I figured that we would have to go to 20. The pace that Brandon is taking is necessary to satisfy the audience with all the threads that needed to be ended and give us closure. FWIW Brandon did have to spread this over two books.

Like a video game that has to choose whether to release a flawed product early or wait a few months, while they fix the problems. I can wait.


I dunno, with the exception of Vista, I don't mind dealing with a product before the first service pack comes out:)

Toss the dice
12-09-2010, 12:26 PM
Well, I never said I prefer this pace over RJs. But let us be honest here, if RJ was still writing, we'd be at book 20 for the ending. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but the reality is- two different authors, two different styles. From what I have seen most everyone rags on tPoD, WH, and CoT. Those books were notorious for RJ's pacing, errant threads etc. Perrin goes full bore into his emo-ing of Faile and it feels like there is much ado about nothing, even though tons happen... Sadin being cleansed for instance...

But the point I am trying to make is that as I am reading through the books, I am thinking to myself that there is no way that RJ is wrapping this series up. By book six, I figured that at the current pace we'd be to book 12. By book 11 I figured that we would have to go to 20. The pace that Brandon is taking is necessary to satisfy the audience with all the threads that needed to be ended and give us closure. FWIW Brandon did have to spread this over two books.

Fair enough.

I dunno, with the exception of Vista, I don't mind dealing with a product before the first service pack comes out:)Some video games are complete trash upon release with bugs, errors, and general crappiness due to everything from UI problems to mechanics issues. Then within a few days, a week, or a month or more, patches are released because the fanbase is irate. Maybe you haven't had any products like that.

maacaroni
12-09-2010, 12:32 PM
So, Rand has lost a hand, Mat has lost an eye..

Perrin has lost...his cajones, maybe?

Toss the dice
12-09-2010, 12:43 PM
The problem with this particular argument is that Mat Doesn't voice it to himself. After all, we are privy to his internal monologue in "a rabbit for supper" and he barely mentions the gaping hole in his face...

He does mention the gaping hole in his face in "a rabbit for supper." Both how it hurts like bloody hell and how he is worried about what Tuon will think and how he will be able to fight. That said, that's as far as it goes, and by the way, I don't see why Mat not voicing it to himself would be a problem with this particular argument. The whole point of this argument is that Mat is a great complainer of small discomforts while stoically remaining silent on serious wounds. Whether or not he voices it to himself is completely irrelevant.

As it happens, he DOES voice it to himself, but even that is squashed quickly because to him, that would be very similar to voicing it aloud. Mat deals with serious pain and serious wounds by just taking it in. He likely doesn't want to even think about it, and wants to push it to the back of his mind. That's his way. To be honest, minus the constant grumbling about small things, that's MY way too. Why? Because during the 2 times in my life I have been faced with it, I was hurting too badly to say a whole lot and I didn't care to waste energy or breath saying anything that I didn't need to, just stayed focused on what I HAD to do. Actually, I'm pretty sure that's MOST people's way. Also, when most people get seriously injured, there is a numbing effect mentally.

subwoofer
12-09-2010, 12:44 PM
Some video games are complete trash upon release with bugs, errors, and general crappiness due to everything from UI problems to mechanics issues. Then within a few days, a week, or a month or more, patches are released because the fanbase is irate. Maybe you haven't had any products like that.

To be honest I try to be a gamer but fail epically. My problem is that first person shooters make me ill- it is a vertigo thing- so that rules out many video games. Pretty much anything where what you see can track differently from where you are moving. Halo just about killed me because at that time I was not aware of what was going on. I plowed through several maps with a migraine before finally coming up for air. Then I put two and two together- look at game= headache, look at anything else=fine. Hmmmmm.

Toss the dice
12-09-2010, 12:45 PM
So, Rand has lost a hand, Mat has lost an eye..

Perrin has lost...his cajones, maybe?

I swear to God I've seen this exact same post posted like 4 times.

Toss the dice
12-09-2010, 12:48 PM
To be honest I try to be a gamer but fail epically. My problem is that first person shooters make me ill- it is a vertigo thing- so that rules out many video games. Pretty much anything where what you see can track differently from where you are moving. Halo just about killed me because at that time I was not aware of what was going on. I plowed through several maps with a migraine before finally coming up for air. Then I put two and two together- look at game= headache, look at anything else=fine. Hmmmmm.

I have a friend like that, who can only play roughly half an hour at a time before having to stop due to headaches. He doesn't think it is vertigo, and I have no idea.

subwoofer
12-09-2010, 01:09 PM
I have a friend like that, who can only play roughly half an hour at a time before having to stop due to headaches. He doesn't think it is vertigo, and I have no idea.

I figured it was an inner ear thing- where my mind/ eyes are tracking motion but my body is not feeling the movement. So I chalked it up to vertigo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertigo).

I can play stuff like Marvel Universe or Soul Calibre and stuff, but Halo, Ratchet and Clank, Uncharted, Assassin's Creed has me crying like a little girl.:(