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cottillion
12-01-2010, 05:41 AM
With all the arguments of Egwene vs Perrin in the world of dreams it has had me wondering on the nature of channeling in the dream.
We see people channeling in Tel'aran'rhiod all the time but what I'm wondering is are these people ever actually touching the source? They imagine themselves touching the source, making the weaves and actively channeling but is this them actually using the one power or is it just a trick of the mind and the dream just making what they think is happening real?
If it is simply a trick of the dream than could someone like Perrin just imagine himself throwing around balls of fire or balefiring someone?
It also brings up the interesting question of the effects of Balefire in Tel'aran'rhiod. Does it still have the effects of erasing someone from the pattern or will it just kill as readily as a ball of fire would? Would a stream of Balefire springing from Perrin's mind have the same effects as someone such as Egwene doing the same?
As far as I remember the only times we've seen Balefire used it the dream world is when Rand was there in the Flesh, which is obviously different, and in TOM when Perrin stops it.

yasiru89
12-01-2010, 05:59 AM
We know balefire does what it's supposed to since Rahvin's death erased Asmodean's, Mat's and Aviendha's deaths and Rahvin's was in Tel'aran'rhiod. But I don't think imaginary balefire would do exactly what it's supposed to. Perrin should try.

cottillion
12-01-2010, 06:06 AM
We know balefire does what it's supposed to since Rahvin's death erased Asmodean's, Mat's and Aviendha's deaths in Tel'aran'rhiod.
But they were there in the flesh as opposed to just dreaming. I feel like there is at least somewhat different rules for those that are there in the flesh and those that are asleep with their bodies elsewhere.

yasiru89
12-01-2010, 06:24 AM
Now that really makes me wonder. But so long as it's real channelling and real balefire I can see it working. The true body might as well disintegrate just as it gets injured. The only basis I have is that burning a thread out of the Pattern still leaves residues- like memories.

Apart from that, I wonder if dying in Tel'aran'rhiod is to die forever? It's true for wolves from what we know, but what about others? Possibly true for Perrin with his wolf side, but what about, say Egwene?

cottillion
12-01-2010, 06:32 AM
Now that really makes me wonder. But so long as it's real channelling and real balefire I can see it working. The true body might as well disintegrate just as it gets injured. The only basis I have is that burning a thread out of the Pattern still leaves residues- like memories.

Apart from that, I wonder if dying in Tel'aran'rhiod is to die forever? It's true for wolves from what we know, but what about others? Possibly true for Perrin with his wolf side, but what about, say Egwene?

I've been wondering that aswell. We know that the dead wolves die forever and that heroes of the horn that die in TAR are done for but we don't really have a point of reference for those that are simply there dreaming. Like what of all those that died during the fight against Masanna in TAR?

yasiru89
12-01-2010, 06:38 AM
I've been wondering that aswell. We know that the dead wolves die forever and that heroes of the horn that die in TAR are done for but we don't really have a point of reference for those that are simply there dreaming. Like what of all those that died during the fight against Masanna in TAR?
I'm going to wager probably not, seeing as humans seem to fumble there too much, even when they touch it accidentally they're unaware and prone to do stupid things (or stumble into a nightmare), which would mean that over time, bloody everyone is going to die forever by dying in Tel'aran'rhiod and the Dark One doesn't have to lift a finger!

yasiru89
12-01-2010, 06:40 AM
On the other hand, the Dark One might be afraid of just that- all humans dead and petty squabbling ended in the world with wolves in charge! 'HELLO? I'M STILL STUCK IN HERE, MY CHOSEN! YOOHOO?!'

Squocka
12-11-2010, 10:35 PM
Wolves die first then go to TAR if they die there they die forever.

Flesh Balefire is different and not avoidable Perrin style as it is real Dreamed Balefire can be avoided as it is not real but the maker knows how to make it really and its effects so they believe in it absolutly so in TAR it has a real like effect.
Perrin on the other hand doesn't know how to make balefire so could imagine a bar of white light but it would not be the same as a channeler making it.

The Immortal One
12-12-2010, 09:47 AM
Flesh Balefire is different and not avoidable Perrin style as it is real Dreamed Balefire can be avoided as it is not real but the maker knows how to make it really and its effects so they believe in it absolutly so in TAR it has a real like effect.

Disagreement. When Rand fought Rahvin (both in T'A'R in the flesh) in Caemlyn Rahvin could use the properties of T'A'R to unmake Rand. Rahvin almost succeeded and was only twarted at the last moment by Rand's stubborn will.

If Rahvin could unmake Rand (in the flesh), then surely someone like Perrin could unmake Balefire (in the flesh; so to speak).


Perrin on the other hand doesn't know how to make balefire so could imagine a bar of white light but it would not be the same as a channeler making it.

Disagreement. If the person he uses it on is a channeller who can use Balefire then Perrin's Dreamfire would be strengthened by the channeller's own belief.

Also, Perrin may have heard what Balefire does - several people have explained it throughout the series (Moiraine explained to Rand when Mat was present, and Moiraine used Balefire in front of Perrin at least once. Also Perrin seemed to know what Egwene was talking about when they met in the White Tower (T'A'R)).

So if Perrin knew what Balefire does, then his belief that it would do what it should should be enough that the Balefire acts normally.

For example, if Perrin made someone burn simply by thinking it, then they would. He knows that it isn't really fire, but his belief that the created fire will act like normal fire means that the created fire does act like normal fire. As long as Perrin knows what Balefire does, his belief will make it real. And if he doesn't know what Balefire does, then why would he ever use it?

Squocka
12-13-2010, 02:43 AM
THeImmortalOne:

I have since seen my folly at the flesh TAR example you are right and also i have come to realise that channeling is the same weather flesh or not as you can channel all 5 powers in TAR not just imagine channelling them i cant think why i thought that must have been something about only channelling spirit while asleep which is worldly not TAR.

As for Perrins Balefire i'm not convinced as first Perin would have to convice himself he could make it and second if someone who had never knew of the existance of BF though oh a white bar of light coming at me oh i might lie down and get a suntan.
I dont think a non channelor could make BF as all they could do was make something that looked the same, its not like TAR is reading their thoughts as in make balefire like the make fire over this area would work becasue BF is a power created thing.

Anyway i will keep thinking

AbbeyRoad
12-14-2010, 12:20 AM
We've seen plenty of examples of creating weaves in TAR without channeling; in fact, during the TarTar battle Egwene realizes that channeling streams of fire takes more time than just imagining them there, and stops channeling and creates them with her mind alone. We've also seen Ishamael do things in TAR that probably could never be duplicated with weaves.

I believe imaginary balefire would work the same as real balefire if the person being attacked believed that it was real; people who are burned by regular fire in TAR suffer just the same as if the fire were real, for example.

sythmaster
12-14-2010, 12:55 AM
I believe imaginary balefire would work the same as real balefire if the person being attacked believed that it was real;

Wouldn't this lead to the possibility of people 'willing' themselves out of the Pattern since they only perceive that the balefire is real?

Or since they "think" its balefire, it only mimics the results (given that its not a necessarily powerful balefire, i dont recall ever seeing things 'go back' in T'A'R like in the physical world from balefire...) (i.e. they just 'vanish')

morat'corlm
12-14-2010, 05:28 AM
We've seen plenty of examples of creating weaves in TAR without channelingMinor nitpick: those aren't weaves, since what are woven in a weave are flows of the One Power. When Egwene summoned fire in TOM, it was just fire.Wouldn't this lead to the possibility of people 'willing' themselves out of the Pattern since they only perceive that the balefire is real?No, the balefire is quite real. The originator makes it so; the target can merely work against it or not.

Squocka
12-15-2010, 09:39 PM
The Balefire wouldn't be real as he cant weave it to be so

If he thinks i'll make some balefire in that direction (which he doesn't know what it is other than a white bar of light that destroys things)

I dont think TAR would then make it with so little information

But he could think ill make a bar of white light that destroys things fly out of my hand and then wipe that forsaken over there out of existance like i have seen Moraine do it may work.

I dont think so still though because as we have seen that then becomes a battle of wills trying to unmake someone as it is not real BF.

If Perring imagined a saidin weave of fire mixed with spitrit. etc. what ever the correct balefire weave would be then maybee but that is information that he will never get and still has to believe that he is a channelor to do it.