PDA

View Full Version : Headcount


Faedryth
12-01-2010, 05:38 PM
So I did some searching and I couldn't find anything recent that goes over this, and it's been on my mind since finishing the book.

How many assets do the forces of light have to call upon?

This is going to make a few assumptions and since I haven't done a full reread in over a year, I'm a bit fuzzy on the numbers. After getting the basic numbers, I want to get an idea of how effective each unit is. My major assumption is that each of the major nations could call upon about 50,000 regular troops at the beginning of the books. I don't recall how I came up with this number, but it sticks out as somewhat appropriate. (Funny how armies have swollen in size - much like DBZ and it's powerlevels)

Borderlander Army: 200,000
Borderlands: 100,000
Malkier/Lan: 12,000
Andor: 150,000 (edited per David Selig)
Carhien: 20,000
Tear: 75,000
Illian: 75,000
Aiel: 200,000
White Tower armies: 75,000
Perrin: 75,000
Band: 20,000
Conscripts: 1,020,000
Total: 2,022,000

I think this about all the organized troops in the book aside from Murandy, just under 2 million fighting age and available people in almost all of Randland. Obviously, Seanchan, Shaido and Channelers aren't included.

Various notes:
Andor - (200,000 original plus the mercenaries Elayne has gathered minus some casulaties in the Succession War and other fights)
Carhien - (50,000 minus deaths from Aiel War and then invasion by Shaido)
Tear/Illian - about equal in troops. Imagine they have been building in quantity for quite some time.
Borderlands - Assume they have more than the average number of trained soldiers. 1/3 still on the Blight Border
White Tower - Rebels had nearly 25k I think and Elaida had wanted to boost the guard to 50k.
Conscripts - not sure if they will get used, but I think this could include every single fighting age person that can wield a pitchfork, bow, stave or any other weapon. Figure just using the combined armies of the world is a decent number to use.

Here, I want to give a rough estimate about the effectiveness of each unit. Fighting ability and leadership. I will use a 1 for your basic human soldier.

Borderlanders: 1.75
Malkier: 1.75
Andor: 1
Carhien: 1
Tear: 1
Illian: 1
Aiel: 3
White Tower: 1
Perrin: 1.75
Band: 2
Conscripts: 0.5
Trolloc: 1.5
Fade: 6

This is just my own rating system. Obviously, not perfect, but I feel it's fair. Aiel are the best fighters in Randland. Band is probably on the same level, but the Aiel have been training their whole lives, so I have to give them an edge. Borderlanders are significantly better than average humans, and slightly better than your average Trolloc. Conscripts have no training and so, aren't very useful.

Multiplying the armies of the Light by their rating, we have x number of assets, not including Channelers. This will give us how many troops the Dark side will have to have to match them.

Total Light fighting capacity is 2,222,200 units. So, with a base value of 1.5 for a Trolloc, the Shadow must field at least 1,000,000 Trollocs and a good number of Fades to lead them to defeat the armies of Light.

This seems fair. Lot of guys for the Light, but the Shadow can probably field 1 Million plus Trollocs pretty easily, considering how they throw away 50k like it's nothing.

The Channelers are going to tip the balance very favorably to the Light side, unless a LOT of Dreadlords appear. I'm talking most of the Black Tower and then some. They are going to be better fighters than the Aes Sedai, Wise Ones and Kinswomen, but the numbers are going to be severly unbalanced. Approximately 1000 Tower Aes Sedai and 150 Black Ajah, but a lot of new Novices. Maybe another 250 or even 500. Black Tower will probably be a 1000 Shadow to 150 Light Ashaman. Wise Ones are in the realm of 1000-2000, no Shadow. Kinswomen are what, another 1000?

The thing that I have decided is that the Shadow is severly outmatched, unless almost the entire Black Tower is turned and even then, maybe a goodly number of more Dreadlords show up. You are looking at 1150 Dreadlords to fight something like 3000+ Light Channelers. Each Channeler can wreck a lot of Trollocs/Fades, so the Shadow is going to have to attain some balance in order to have a shot at winning. I also think that the strategies of the Light side and the Great Captains are going to mean they can handle maybe twice what they otherwise would be able to. I think that Lan is going to throw a real wrench into things as well, with his 12,000 defeating 150,000 Trollocs at Tarwin's Gap.

Hard to get exact figures, but this is where I stand right now on my comprehension of the numbers in Randland. Thoughts?

Toss the dice
12-01-2010, 05:48 PM
I think the whole shadowspawn vs humans numbers game at the Last Battle is mostly unimportant for the big picture and will also heavily favor the Light, like you said.

The important part to the Last Battle to me will be the whole Bore and Shayol Ghul fight. I think the Shadowspawn armies - the trollocs, fades, draghkar, etc will simply be there to wreak as much havoc as possible, kill as many humans as possible, burn as much shit as possible, and help tie up Light forces. What happens at Shayol Ghul and with the Bore is what will solely determine whether the Last Battle is won or not. Fighting the hordes of shadowspawn will simply be a question of how many people get slaughtered and how many towns are destroyed in the fighting before all the shadowspawn are defeated.

Of course, if the Dark One wins the Last Battle, and crap really turns south, then I assume shadowspawn will be around for good, at least until the Dark One kills them too and stops the Wheel.

David Selig
12-01-2010, 05:56 PM
The Andoran armies must'be way more than 50 000.

6 of the their High Nobles (Pelivar, Luan, etc), who stayed neutral during the siege of Caemlyn, had 60 000 men in total in their armies. Those are now available for Elayne.

Also there's this quote from KoD:
For one, to the northeast of Caemlyn. almost off the map. lay the bronze image of a sleeping bear, curled up with its paws over its nose. Two hundred thousand men, near enough, almost as many trained men as all of Andor could field.

The Aiel must'be more than 200 000 too IIRC, more like 400 000- 500 000.

Faedryth
12-01-2010, 06:03 PM
Toss the Dice, I'm split on how important the armies are going to be. I can't see it being fair or within the story for Rand and company to just Gateway to Shayol Ghul, foregoing all fighting. I think it is going to be immensly important how the armies of light fare. Maybe, depending on how much powerful the armies of the Shadow have some bearing on how powerful the Dark One is. The more successful the Armies of Light are will directly correlate to how doable Rand's task to seal the Bore is.

Selig, that's the kind of info I was hoping for on Andor. If I recall, the Bear was the Borderlander army no? I think that the 200,000 for their armies came from there, but I forgot the comparison between Andor and them. Looks like Andor is the most powerful nation in Randland then?

Also, the Aiel were more, but they were evenly matched with the Shaido and those who left their clans. I think I remember reading that 250,000 was a good number for them, and because of their losses to the Shaido and various other fights, I think that 200,000 is a good number for them. Of course, any good numbers are welcome.

David Selig
12-01-2010, 06:39 PM
Yes, the bear was the Borderlander armies.

I found a quote about Aiel's numbers:

TFOH, Chapter 42

If the Aiel scouts could count, Couladin had nearly one hundred and sixty thousand spears—Shaido and those who had supposedly gone to join their societies among the Shaido. A hard nut to crack, and prickly. This side of the Spine of the World had not seen an army like that since Artur Hawkwing’s time.

The second map showed the other clans that had crossed the Dragonwall. All had now, in one force or another, strung out according to when they had left the Jangai and spread apart, but too close to here for comfort. The Shiande, the Codarra, the Daryne, and the Miagoma. Between them, they apparently had at least as many spears as Couladin; they had not left many behind, if that was true. The seven clans with Rand almost doubled that, easily enough to face Couladin or the four clans.

So before the battle with Shaido, the 11 non-Shaido clans had about 450 000 - 470 000 fighters in total.

Bladesoar
12-01-2010, 06:48 PM
As was pointed out, the most important goal is what's going to happen with the actual re-sealing or the destroying of the Dark One for good, or whatever it is that's gonna happen (I won't debate that here). The armies are just there for distraction; as important as they are, they aren't the biggest priority. They're just there to keep the Shadow's armies from over-running the world and killing everyone and destroying everything.

Remember though, that back in the day, Lews Therin carried out the Strike at Shayol Ghul and caught everyone by surprise: the Dark One, the Forsaken, etc. And that's why they ultimately won the war. You can be pretty damn sure that the Shadow is not going to be caught unaware this time, so perhaps the armies will have to be a bit more aggressive than they were back then. And the Shadow will be prepared... we have just yet to see how..

Toss the dice
12-01-2010, 06:51 PM
Toss the Dice, I'm split on how important the armies are going to be. I can't see it being fair or within the story for Rand and company to just Gateway to Shayol Ghul, foregoing all fighting. I think it is going to be immensly important how the armies of light fare. Maybe, depending on how much powerful the armies of the Shadow have some bearing on how powerful the Dark One is. The more successful the Armies of Light are will directly correlate to how doable Rand's task to seal the Bore is.Reminds me of the Falme battle in TGH, and Rand and Ishamael's duel affecting the battle on the ground.

Also, the Aiel were more, but they were evenly matched with the Shaido and those who left their clans. I think I remember reading that 250,000 was a good number for them, and because of their losses to the Shaido and various other fights, I think that 200,000 is a good number for them. Of course, any good numbers are welcome.

From what I remember, the Aiel of whom you speak were closely matched number-wise with the Shaido (and those that joined) + the 4 clans that held back and ended up siding with the "Aiel."

At least way back in TFOH, personaly id put the Aiel numbers at minimum 500k if not closer to a million. That's your "Aiel" alone, not counting the Shaido faction. Even with their losses since then, id still put them at a good 400k at least. These numbers are mostly pure guesses, based off vague memories of reading articles on this subject posted here, at the 13th depository, etc.

Kimon
12-01-2010, 06:59 PM
As was pointed out, the most important goal is what's going to happen with the actual re-sealing or the destroying of the Dark One for good, or whatever it is that's gonna happen (I won't debate that here). The armies are just there for distraction; as important as they are, they aren't the biggest priority. They're just there to keep the Shadow's armies from over-running the world and killing everyone and destroying everything.

Remember though, that back in the day, Lews Therin carried out the Strike at Shayol Ghul and caught everyone by surprise: the Dark One, the Forsaken, etc. And that's why they ultimately won the war. You can be pretty damn sure that the Shadow is not going to be caught unaware this time, so perhaps the armies will have to be a bit more aggressive than they were back then. And the Shadow will be prepared... we have just yet to see how..

True, but those armies still have an important role to play- i.e. supporting Lan in holding back the sea of shadowspawn that has already begun coursing over the Borderlands. And of course, there are still some serious problems south of the borderlands. Caemlyn is apparently getting toasty, Tuon is still planning her more massive assault on the White Tower, Taim is still turning the Black Tower into a citadel of zombiefied magicians, and Demandred is still up to god knows what.

Rand's fight is obviously the most important, but it'd clearly be nice if some people (besides the Seanchan) are still alive afterwards to enjoy the fruits of his victory.

Bladesoar
12-01-2010, 07:53 PM
Definitely, Kimon. That's why I said not the MOST important, but still fairly important, especially to keep the armies of the Shadow from destroying everything and everyone. I'm glad to see we agree! :)

Res_Ipsa
12-01-2010, 08:09 PM
Your value system for the skill of the fighters is all messed up. You would set a normalized value would be everything to a standard which if you are assuming the generic fighter is a 1 you would have to have some way to detail how that would be. So yes the skill of the borderlanders would be greater than a southern soldier potentially. Other factors are included which you can not quantitate ie leadership, experience, quality of arms, location, etc. and so on so you are just making up numbers on what you think is relevant. Getting a handle on the numbers involved is important however.

yasiru89
12-02-2010, 12:40 AM
Interesting is the connection between Rand's battle over the sky in Falme and the battle below- perhaps this was the Dark One tying the fortune of the one with the other somehow. It could have been the Pattern at play but I can't see what end was sought in that case, unless Artur Hawkwing mentioning the Dragon banner had the significance that the Heroes are tied as much to Rand as to Mat, the actual Hornsounder. If, on the other hand, it's my first explanation, then very few forces will have an independent bearing on the battle. Perhaps Mat and Perrin thanks to their ta'veren nature, and perhaps the Seanchan, if Rand hasn't managed to tie them to him.

Like Res_Ispa said, for the Band for instance, taking individual stats into consideration is not enough, sometimes other factors come into play and sometimes overlap or even overwhelm the obvious measures.

Nei
12-02-2010, 11:37 AM
Andor attaining use of the Dragons/cannons probably ups them by about .5 in weightage. That is of course if they actually have use of the Dragons now that Caemlyn's all gone up in flames.

GonzoTheGreat
12-02-2010, 11:45 AM
There might be some Domani too who want to get involved. And there's the Ogier. And, as this is the last episode and all, the Ewoks will make an appearance.

Toss the dice
12-02-2010, 02:11 PM
There might be some Domani too who want to get involved. And there's the Ogier. And, as this is the last episode and all, the Ewoks will make an appearance.

Just so long as Hayden Christensen isn't the spirit of Anakin Skywalker.

Belazamon
12-02-2010, 02:46 PM
Just so long as Hayden Christensen isn't the spirit of Anakin Skywalker.
"From my point of view, the Whitecloaks are evil!"
"Yeah, Rand, that's a lot of peoples' point of view actually."

The Immortal One
12-03-2010, 01:41 AM
I don't think the Malkieri should be exactly the same as the rest of the borderlanders. They have a reputation of being excellent fighters even thoughout the borderlands. Perhaps you should put them as "2", like the Band.

morat'corlm
12-03-2010, 02:07 AM
They have a reputation for being touchy, violent thugs, which is a different matter. Many of the Malkieri in Lan's army don't even seem to be soldiers, even if they're not old enough to have seen the fall of Malkier themselves.

jana
12-03-2010, 03:44 AM
In KoD the Band had 10,000, IIRC. Is there an updated number since then?


This quote confuses me though. Is the first part a typo?

He did some quick figuring based on the trails of campfire smoke he saw twisting into the air. There were at least ten thousand mercenaries in the area.
...
By Mat's count, they were the largest single group-mercenary or lord's force-outside Caemlyn's walls.


These two paragraphs seem weird to me. There are 10,000 mercenaries, but Mat has to actually "count" to figure out that his group is the largest of the groups? Shouldn't he have thought "They were easily the largest single group." ? His group has 10,000+ by itself which equals the number of all of the others combined.


I'm not posting to complain about the wording though. Just wondering if there are really only 20,000 men outside of Caemlyn (probably 15,000 now that half the Band is gone).

Caemlyn is totally screwed (barring a miracle, which I'm sure we'll get)

yasiru89
12-03-2010, 04:01 AM
I guess being rusty puts the Malkieri back in league with the rest then, they'd have been better since they would have been fighting the Blight closer for longer than Shienar, etc.
I also think the Band needs to be upped 0.5 at least because of the Dragons. Mat should have added some foxhead copies to his deal, then his generals could be safe too (the Borderlanders make such good soldiers partly because the chain of command is always maintained, as Ingtar once explained to Rand).

morat'corlm
12-03-2010, 04:17 AM
In KoD the Band had 10,000, IIRC. Is there an updated number since then?Gareth Bryne reported that the Band numbered ten thousand in ACOS. In KOD25, “I only brought three banners of horse and four thousand mounted crossbowmen. I left three banners of horse and five of foot, a little short of crossbows, in Murandy with orders to move north to Andor. And the Mason’s Banner, of course. Handy to have masons ready to hand if you need a bridge built or the like.”

A banner is 1500 horse or 3000 foot, so the Band’s cavalry is 9000 strong and its infantry 15000 strong, plus 4000 mounted crossbowment, plus a few thousand engineers is 30000+ soldiers altogether. We can assume that the thousand or so killed in the Altaran campaign were replaced by new recruits; likely, far more were recruited, considering Mat is ta’veren and all.
These two paragraphs seem weird to me. There are 10,000 mercenaries, but Mat has to actually "count" to figure out that his group is the largest of the groups?Well, 10,000 "in the area", on the direct path he takes from the city to the Band's camps. That doesn't mean there aren't others; Elayne's edict lays out a pretty big chunk of land even at the minimum distance.

jana
12-03-2010, 07:46 AM
Well, 10,000 "in the area", on the direct path he takes from the city to the Band's camps. That doesn't mean there aren't others; Elayne's edict lays out a pretty big chunk of land even at the minimum distance.

That makes sense :p, and thanks for the numbers.

Sei'taer
12-03-2010, 10:52 AM
You also have to remember that while Myradraal are very good fighters, they are the weak point in leading trollocs. You take out the Myradraal, you take out a significant number of trollocs at the same time.

Also, I'm wondering if these new red veiled people are actually a large enough group to negate some of the other forces. If they live in the blight and are corrupted enough to fight with the shadow then they could easily be enough to negate the Borderlanders and possibly even the Aiel.

Then again, we don't really know if they are with or against the shadow yet. We need more information on them.

ETA: you also left out Ogier, I think they will play a significant role in the fight to come.

Sei'taer
12-03-2010, 12:04 PM
After a cursory look and a not very in-depth analysis, it is estimated that there are about 250,000 ogier. So they could probably field about 50,000 (maybe 75 if they squeezed) troops. Who knows about how the would organize and what quality of fighters they would be since the only thing we have to compare them to are the Seanchan Ogier. The Gardners appear to be highly trained where Randland Ogier are not, as far as we know.

Toss the dice
12-03-2010, 01:42 PM
I guess being rusty puts the Malkieri back in league with the rest then, they'd have been better since they would have been fighting the Blight closer for longer than Shienar, etc.

I disagree. I would clearly put the Malkieri at BELOW the rest of the Borderlanders since seemingly, the vast majority of them have either never been soldiers ever, or if they have, now they're 70. In fact, I would put them below that of regular "southerner" soldiers, at least experienced ones.

When Malkier was around, it was the shit. Best soldiers, toughest men and women alike. Not surprising, considering it was the "true Borderlands" when it still existed. Malkier would have probably had the "best" soldiers on paper than the rest of the current Borderlands.

Now. To say that a bunch of Malkieri, many of which are overweight and/or have never held a sword before in their life, are actually BETTER than seasoned Borderlander soldiers from any of the current Borderlands is ridiculous. This is definitely a case of "Well shit, they're Malkieri. Malkieri are badass. I give them a higher score than the rest of the Borderlanders. You know, the ones that have actually fought in a battle before."

Malkieri USED to be badass. But then the nation died, and all the badass warriors died in various ways, from dying in the initial war when the nation was lost, to attempting to avenge their homeland later on, to falling in the privy.

Juan
12-03-2010, 03:00 PM
Borderlanders: 1.75
Shienar: 2.25
Malkier: 1.25
Andor: 1.5
Carhien: 1
Tear: 1
Illian: 1
Aiel: 3
White Tower: 1
Perrin: 1.75
Band: 2.5
Conscripts: 0.5
Trolloc: 1.5
Fade: 5
Ogier: 3
Seanchan: 2
Ituralde's forces: 2.5
Bryne's forces: 1.75

I agree with many of these, but as you can see I've changed some. Only in history books is war ever pretty and clear cut. That being said, ROUGH estimates can be made about different troops and forces and their effectiveness.

Note that in terms of sheer fighting skills, among humans the Aiel rank higher than any. However the Aiel themselves considered Shienar to have the best wetlander soldiers by far and to be their biggest obstacles and challenge during the Aiel war and raids and such. Shienar indeed has the best soldiers apart from the Aiel. After that would be the rest of the Borderlands.

But even more important than the individual warriors, is the discipline and skill as a fighting FORCE. This is where the generals come in. Although the Borderlanders have great warriors, they lack the genius military strategists. This is why other forces would probably much more effective than they. For example, Mat's Band is extremely disciplined as noted by Tuon. He has the Dragons AND those insanely powerful and quick-to-reload crossbows. Mat is a genius strategist thanks to those memories, and the combination of these puts the Band as one of the best forces in the world. The soldiers themselves aren't the greatest (not even close) but as a whole the Band is deadly. Aiel has good discipline and the best warriors of all. The quickest, the best trained. Very disciplined. However, although they have a good leadership established, their clan chiefs aren't military strategic masterminds from what we've been told and have seen so far. Perrin's troops are not the best disciplined nor the best warriors. The Winged Guard is as best a pretty good fighting force (in comparison to others). The only reasons (excluding channelers) that Perrin's forces rank on par with say Borderlanders is that they're not horrible soldiers and have some discipline. Also, Perrin has numbers. He has many troops as noted. And to top it all off, his most effective units: the Two Rivers bowmen. Perrin is an average leader and strategist. He's not bad, just nothing spectacular. G. Bryne is one of the great generals, but he doesn't seem to be very resourceful as opposed to say Mat or Ituralde. Bryne is a great strategist but his troops are very average, and because there are a lot of them, he can only keep so much control of them and demand so much discipline (as noted by Gawyn). Ituralde on the other hand, is probably the most effective general we've seen. He has good soldiers especially now that he has command of Borderlanders. He made do with fairly decent but not great soldiers (back when he was fighting with the Domani against the Seanchan) and yet was able to win battle after impossible battle. Ituralde is a great strategist, great tactician, and my feeling is that unlike Bryne, he can put those in practice extremely quickly and efficiently. The Seanchan are extremely well disciplined and they are pretty good soldiers. Their generals "learn quickly" so they have very good and capable generals it seems. It's just unlucky they had to face one of the greatest and most resourceful generals of all time: Ituralde. So, on to the Ogier. The Ogier rarely fight, but it has been noted that was angered, they are extremely fierce and deadly warriors. Their size and strength definitely is a plus for the fighting prowess. I'm not sure how effective they will be as force, though, but they WILL make an appearance. The Seanchan Ogier are probably more deadly than even the Randland Ogier because the Seanchan ones are actually battle-trained and more disciplined. Trollocs are fairly stupid, but they are strong and big. And Myrdraal are never really generals; they just serve like captains or any other lesser rank below a general. The title generals will most likely fall to human beings likely Dreadlords. Fades, though, are great fighters because they're quick, pretty strong, and just good fighters. Plus if they have those super special awesome blade of theirs, that's also a plus in their favor. As has been said Malkier has old veterans or young warriors who haven't been trained as soldiers. However, those old veterans are disciplined as hell, and believe me, that's contagious; the younger will follow and be more disciplined. Lan is the best swordsman there is, obviously. But he is by no means a general or strategist. He is a fighter. So Malkier is not going to be the best force, but they're also not going to be the worst.

NOTE: I haven't mentioned naval warfare here. If I did, I'd need to make an even bigger list, and include the Seanchan's naval force which is probably the best. Then the Seafolk which is probably the second best. And then Illian. And then Tear. Thing about Seanchan and Seafolk is that the Seanchan are more organized than the Seafolk although the Seafolk are better sailors etc. Seafolk haven't yet really been seen in action, that's why there is a probable before them. They have the potential to be the best should they prove to be effective in war and above the Seanchan in discipline.

Side note: In my opinion the two greatest generals by far without even competition is Ituralde and Mat. We've seen both of them do crazy impossible things. I would definitely LOVE to see them fight against each other just to see who would win, but of course that won't happen.

David Selig
12-03-2010, 03:26 PM
Although the Borderlanders have great warriors, they lack the genius military strategists.
They have 2 of the great captains - Agelmar Jagad and Davram Bashere. And they certainly have way more experience planning battles and campaigns against Trollocs than anyone else (except Mat due to the memories). So I am pretty sure they will be able to do their bit in the upcoming battles.

Yellowbeard
12-03-2010, 03:56 PM
no love for the whitecloaks huh?

Juan
12-03-2010, 03:57 PM
Bashere is with Rand and we don't know what Rand will do with him. Also, we've yet to see what Queen Tenobia or whatever will do with Bashere and his treasonous act.. The point isn't that the Borderlanders won't be able to do their part. I know they will. The question is how well and where and when. For example, while the Borderlanders where out at the carnival eating popcorn and cotton candy, Ituralde was holding off the Trollocs and Fades in a near impossible way in Maradon. Which isn't even his homeland. Anyway, I apologize, back to the main point: as I've said before (under my old name Bladesoar), the forces of the Light need to serve as a distraction while Rand finds a way to battle Moridin and deal with the Dark One. As I also said before. Rest assured, unlike in the original sealing where the Forsaken and all of them were caught offguard, you can be pretty damn sure that won't happen again.

Anyway to really reply to what you've said. The Borderlanders have experience fighting Trollocs. And how about fighting humans? Not really. In reverse, other southern troops have experience fighting humans and not Trollocs. I think it would be best if the Borderlanders focus on their strengths and are used to fight the Shadowspawn, while other troops, such as Ituralde's and Bryne's are used to fight human darkfriends. They will do their part, no doubt about it. Let's see how well and where.

Juan
12-03-2010, 04:00 PM
no love for the whitecloaks huh?

I knew I forgetting the Whitecloaks and I meant to add them in but I got carried away and forgot them in my post! Thanks for the reminder haha. The Whitecloaks (not so much lately) but usually (if they can be brought to full rein again) are very disciplined. Too bad Niall is dead, he would've been an effective general using the Whitecloaks. Whitecloaks aren't really good soldiers. They're more like footpads. But the one good thing they got going for them is their discipline and ability to follow orders (for the most part).

Sei'taer
12-03-2010, 09:39 PM
I knew I forgetting the Whitecloaks and I meant to add them in but I got carried away and forgot them in my post! Thanks for the reminder haha. The Whitecloaks (not so much lately) but usually (if they can be brought to full rein again) are very disciplined. Too bad Niall is dead, he would've been an effective general using the Whitecloaks. Whitecloaks aren't really good soldiers. They're more like footpads. But the one good thing they got going for them is their discipline and ability to follow orders (for the most part).

I think the kind of discipline required here is very different from other wars that have been fought. Very few of these armies have ever faced Trollocs. Tactics are going to have to be different, especially when trollocs are used in tandem with human fighters.

Also, who knows how many people in all the armies will actually switch sides as the battles are fought. I think it won't be a huge number, but it probably will be significant in the whole scheme. If you have 2.5 million troops and even 50,000 switch, then that's a blow to the light because these people are now looking at fighting people they are friends with...or at least know well.

I really wonder how much fighting will take place in the blight. I don't think it will be much, as a defensive war will probably be better for the forces of the light because they are inexperienced with the blight. Even the borderlanders don't go very deep into the blight and never with large armies like we are going to have. If they do go in, then they have to fight the elements as well as the shadow troops. These are all things will be game changers for the generals. I don't even think Mat's memories will help him in the blight. Lan is probably the most experienced in the blight, and he was basically a one man show when he went in. Someone like Ituralde is a great general, but in the blight he will be lacking the experince of some of the borderland generals and is definitely far behind Lan, even Mat is sorely lacking, as far as we know. He may have memories from the Trolloc wars, but I don't think much of that fighting took palce in the blight either.

It's going to be interesting to see how it plays out.

Juan
12-03-2010, 09:53 PM
@Sei'taer
Right. As I've said before I believe the Light will be fighting a defensive war, much as they did before and always have. That's why I said the generals such as Ituralde and Bryne should focus on the defense nearer the human lands and Borderlanders should focus on a defense closer to the Blight. It will indeed be interesting to see how it will play out that's for sure! Although I think these armies are simply a distraction to help Rand achieve what he needs to.

Sei'taer
12-03-2010, 11:22 PM
@Sei'taer
Right. As I've said before I believe the Light will be fighting a defensive war, much as they did before and always have. That's why I said the generals such as Ituralde and Bryne should focus on the defense nearer the human lands and Borderlanders should focus on a defense closer to the Blight. It will indeed be interesting to see how it will play out that's for sure! Although I think these armies are simply a distraction to help Rand achieve what he needs to.


I don't know if it's so much a distraction as a two front war. I don't think there can be one without the other.

The Immortal One
12-04-2010, 10:10 AM
I disagree. I would clearly put the Malkieri at BELOW the rest of the Borderlanders since seemingly, the vast majority of them have either never been soldiers ever, or if they have, now they're 70. In fact, I would put them below that of regular "southerner" soldiers, at least experienced ones.

When Malkier was around, it was the shit. Best soldiers, toughest men and women alike. Not surprising, considering it was the "true Borderlands" when it still existed. Malkier would have probably had the "best" soldiers on paper than the rest of the current Borderlands.

Now. To say that a bunch of Malkieri, many of which are overweight and/or have never held a sword before in their life, are actually BETTER than seasoned Borderlander soldiers from any of the current Borderlands is ridiculous. This is definitely a case of "Well shit, they're Malkieri. Malkieri are badass. I give them a higher score than the rest of the Borderlanders. You know, the ones that have actually fought in a battle before."

Malkieri USED to be badass. But then the nation died, and all the badass warriors died in various ways, from dying in the initial war when the nation was lost, to attempting to avenge their homeland later on, to falling in the privy.

I disagree. Yes, quite a number of those following al'Lan are older veterans and younger men or 'civilians' (though remember they are civilians who live in the Borderlands - "tales of Trollocs, and every man a warrior"), but many others left service in the armies of Sheinar, Arafel, Kandor and Saldaea to follow the Golden Crane. They were real soldiers, following their father's craft, defending the Blightborder as best they could; waiting for the day when the Golden Crane was raised.

Also, as I said, even youngsters and civilians in the Borderlands would likely be trained in battle, not as much as soldiers perhaps but trained nonetheless.

And I think you're underestimating the discipline of the 70+ year olds, they would remember the old days, and train the next generations in the old ways. I'd also be surprised if any of those oldsters had lost or not maintained their swords. I think 9 in 10 would still keep their swords sharp even if the infirmities of age stopped them from walking more than the length of the street.

And remember the pride in Agelmar's voice when he spoke of Lan to Nynaeve and Egwene in tEotW, do you really think that the refugees from Malkier who fled to the other borderlands wouldn't be aided and trained - hoping to retake Malkier, even if it took a century or more.



Then again, you're probably right. I'm transferring some of Lan's badass-ness to the rest of the Malkieri. But just because I admit they aren't better than other Borderlanders, doesn't mean they are less either.

morat'corlm
12-04-2010, 10:33 AM
many others left service in the armies of Sheinar, Arafel, Kandor and Saldaea to follow the Golden Crane.I hadn't yet realized that Lan was sapping the strength of defenses the length of the Blightborder to acquire more men to feed to the Trollocs at Tarwin's Gap. That's quite impressive. He might singlehandedly be responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands when the cities in the Borderlands fall.

Juan
12-04-2010, 10:34 AM
@Sei'taer
I thought about it. And I believe distraction is as proper a word as I can think of. The main emphasis is really to either seal/kill the Dark One, depending on which you believe can be done. Therefore, anything else--- as important as it may be--- is secondary and less important than that first object.

It's also not a two front war. Because a two-front war means fighting the war on two sides. This war is going to have many more fronts than that because in the WOT world there is the use of instant or near instant teleportation. This of course referring to Travelling, Skimming, the Ways, the use of raken and to'raken to fly, etc. Already we've seen attacks on the Two Rivers, Caemlyn, etc. thanks to this. You can bet there will be even more fronts than that when the actual Last Battle comes. Therefore it will not be a two front war. The WOT world is far too complex to allow that.

You do need to armies to reach that final important objective that Rand needs to fulfill as said before, but again, I believe it's just a distraction. I'm inclined to believe that with the use of Travelling, Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, the Kin, Windfinders, Ashaman, and any other channelers for the Light, that Rand can simply form a little war group as LTT did back in the day and Travel to Shayol Ghul and have another big fight there and the whole deal. I don't believe the armies are necessary to win the war. I simply believe the armies are necessary not to lose it.

The Immortal One
12-04-2010, 11:02 AM
I hadn't yet realized that Lan was sapping the strength of defenses the length of the Blightborder to acquire more men to feed to the Trollocs at Tarwin's Gap. That's quite impressive. He might singlehandedly be responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands when the cities in the Borderlands fall.

No need to be so dramatic. If the numbers above are correct (or close to it) and there are 12,000 following Lan, then likely less than 2000 from each of the Borderlands, almost nothing compared to the number who stayed at their posts; and that's assuming that 2/3 of Lan's force were currently soldiers in those lands.

If you're right and most of them are youngsters, oldsters and civilians, then less there would be less than 1000 from each of the Borderlands.

Besides, the more Trollocs they kill, or simply delay by bottling them up, in Tarwin's Gap the less there will be to invade the rest of the Border.

@Sei'taer
I thought about it. And I believe distraction is as proper a word as I can think of. The main emphasis is really to either seal/kill the Dark One, depending on which you believe can be done. Therefore, anything else--- as important as it may be--- is secondary and less important than that first object.

It's also not a two front war. Because a two-front war means fighting the war on two sides. This war is going to have many more fronts than that because in the WOT world there is the use of instant or near instant teleportation. This of course referring to Travelling, Skimming, the Ways, the use of raken and to'raken to fly, etc. Already we've seen attacks on the Two Rivers, Caemlyn, etc. thanks to this. You can bet there will be even more fronts than that when the actual Last Battle comes. Therefore it will not be a two front war. The WOT world is far too complex to allow that.

You do need to armies to reach that final important objective that Rand needs to fulfill as said before, but again, I believe it's just a distraction. I'm inclined to believe that with the use of Travelling, Aes Sedai, Wise Ones, the Kin, Windfinders, Ashaman, and any other channelers for the Light, that Rand can simply form a little war group as LTT did back in the day and Travel to Shayol Ghul and have another big fight there and the whole deal. I don't believe the armies are necessary to win the war. I simply believe the armies are necessary not to lose it.

Yes, that was (I believe) what was meant by 'two-front war'. One physical (armies) and the other meta-physical (Rand at the bore). Or, from another perspective, one defensive and one offensive.

Yes, the Strike at Shayol Ghul (so to speak) is the most important objective, but that doesn't mean the secondary objective is unimportant.

The word 'distraction' seems to imply something unimportant, something totally peripheral to the main effort.
Whereas the phrase 'two-front war' implies that there will be seperate battles in two different places, two different ways. Which is not to say that both front-lines are equally important - they aren't, only that both are necessary to ensure victory.

Juan
12-04-2010, 11:33 AM
@The Immortal One
Yes I figured that he meant two front war as Rand and his group and then the actual armies; I just think distraction is a better word than two front war. Let's assume that distraction is misleading because it implies that the armies are unimportant. I cleared that up every time I've said this by stating that the armies are still important, but LESS important than what Rand needs to do. Hence the word distraction. They are a distraction for the bigger purpose/task. Regardless, it's a bit silly to discuss the meaning of words when we should be focusing on the actual point and message of what I'm trying to say. Which I believe is something we agree on.

Sei'taer
12-04-2010, 11:54 AM
Yes, that was (I believe) what was meant by 'two-front war'. One physical (armies) and the other meta-physical (Rand at the bore). Or, from another perspective, one defensive and one offensive.

Yes, the Strike at Shayol Ghul (so to speak) is the most important objective, but that doesn't mean the secondary objective is unimportant.

The word 'distraction' seems to imply something unimportant, something totally peripheral to the main effort.
Whereas the phrase 'two-front war' implies that there will be seperate battles in two different places, two different ways. Which is not to say that both front-lines are equally important - they aren't, only that both are necessary to ensure victory.

Exactly.

yasiru89
12-05-2010, 03:31 AM
As was mentioned, most of those Malkieri seem to have hung around the Borderlands regardless, so even the children and grandchildren of those seventy-something folks are trained to fight (as Narishma once comments to Nynaeve).

Lord of tomorrow
12-13-2010, 05:15 PM
As for other armies in the land.
I belive Perrins army is numbering 90 000 soliders at the least. We have been told that he had force 70 000 strong when he had ended up with the whitecloacs and after he had been to see Elayne.
His numbers have increased since then. Alliandre and Mayne had about 1 thousand soldiers each. But we were being told that Perrin asked them to bring whatever they could from there lands to join him. He also asked this of the two rivers.
Surely Ghealdan can bring fouth an army way larger than merely a thousand strong. Mayne as well even though it is only a city state.
The numbers they bring certainly brings Perrins army up to 90 000 strong at the least.
70-90 thousand soldiers do i put the legion of the dragon at. In a crown of swords we are being told that bashere can only bring 15 000 soldiers-because they are the ones that are trained and have weapons-however we are being told that they number way more even then.
There numbers are being scooped up by ashaman looking for channelers and are being sent to bashere legion of dragon camp. We know that only 1-2 procent of the population can channel-we know that the black tower holds at the least 800 men probably more like 900+-so going by this i put the numbers at 70-90k.
The aiel have here in the westlands a force of 400 000 or more. In the waist there should be reinforcements to call fourth as well should Rand like to. Not to many but he should be able to muster 400-500 k aiel in total.
60 000-70 000 soldiers at the least for illian,80- 90 000 for tear.
Carhien should have 40 000 at least. We see 6 houses muster an army of 20 000 probably when meeting Elayne. Surely there are more than 6 houses in Carhien-we know that there are. 25-30 thousand soldiers for the band of the red hand. 140-150 thousand soldiers for Andor.
Egwene have with Brynes men plus the soldiers under Guyborn an army that likely numbers at 110 000 soldiers at the least. More than 50 000 soldiers under Bryne and nearly 50 000 under Guyborn. Probably well more than 50 000 now under Bryne.