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Servus Christi
12-01-2010, 11:59 PM
In a couple of the Egwene bashing threads I've seen people complain about Egwene's lack of putting the Brown Ajah on the case of researching the Seal and ways to defeat the Dark One and the like. I wonder why most people are saying the Brown Ajah when surely this would fall more in the realm of the White Ajah?

Well, just for now, you can only choose one (in reality you would want both).

Who do you choose? White or Brown?

P.S. Is it possible to have a poll added?

jana
12-02-2010, 12:02 AM
Only the Browns know how to read

Jonai
12-02-2010, 12:16 AM
Well, if Smokey The (Brown Ajah) Bear can prevent forest fires, I'm sure he can seal the Dark One's prison too.

I don't think any Aes Sedai (sans Nynaeve) can help with the Bore, but that might just be the bigotry and pessimism talking. But if I have to choose, I'll choose brown (and flush it down?). Why are Whites the clearly superior choice? You've given absolutely no data or rationalization to back up your choice. While philosophy and logic might be contributory factors in an eventual method, I don't see how they help in the near future. Why don't you enlighten me.

morat'corlm
12-02-2010, 12:21 AM
I'd put both Verin and Alviarin on the case. They seem extremely competent.

Jonai
12-02-2010, 12:23 AM
More competent than the rest: even in their current condition.

White vs. Brown would be a cool name for a rock band.

Servus Christi
12-02-2010, 12:30 AM
You've given absolutely no data or rationalization to back up your choice. While philosophy and logic might be contributory factors in an eventual method, I don't see how they help in the near future. Why don't you enlighten me.

It's quite simple to me. What on earth can the Browns really do? Sure they're all good for detailing the anatomy of a flower or maybe stringing a few words of the Old Tongue together.. but that's it. They're very limited because the sources themselves that they will look to are limited.

There are barely any records from the Trolloc Wars that have survived history and even fewer from the Age of Legends. There is nothing that the Browns can bring to the table. Whilst they collect knowledge the White Ajah strives to understand knowledge.

The problem with the Prison and the Seal, the Dark One and the Pattern, ta'veren &c. are clearly philosophical/theological in nature and therefore fall in the province of the White Ajah.

FelixPax
12-02-2010, 04:22 AM
I'd put both Verin and Alviarin on the case. They seem extremely competent.


Verin was "extremely competent"? :(


If cough Verin met the "extremely competent" standard in TofM book... She WOULD have literally wrote Matrim Cauthon how to destroy a Waygate. Verin did not even know a Waygate could be destroyed until Loial mentioned to offhand to Faile, Perrin, Gaul and herself:


“I did not believe a Waygate could be destroyed,” Faile said.

“I did not mean destroy, exactly.” Loial leaned on his long-handled axe. “A Waygate was destroyed once, less than five hundred years after the Breaking, according to Damelle, daughter of Ala daughter of Soferra, because the Gate was near a stedding that had fallen to the Blight. There are two or three Gates lost in the Blight as it is. But she wrote that it was very difficult, and required thirteen Aes Sedai working together with a sa’angreal. Another attempt she wrote of, by only nine, during the Trolloc Wars, damaged the Gate in such a way that the Aes Sedai were pulled into—” He cut off, ears wriggling with embarrassment, and knuckled his wide nose. Everyone was staring at him, even Verin and the Aiel.


The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 43 "Care For The Living" -- Perrin point of view

I just cannot understand how Verin Sedai could say destroy a Waygate, yet not explain that to do this, it will require a Sa'angreal and a full Circle of 13 Aes Sedai! Using a Circle of 9 channelers is not enough to be safe. Sigh.

Let's hope that one can blame Olver's poor reading skills, not Verin's compentent for what was show in that letter to Mat. (TofM, Epilogue "And After" - Olver pov). If that not an error in reading on Olver's part, I'm going to be sorely disappointed with Verin's character in TofM book.


I loved the Verin as a character in the pre-Brandon Sanderson books... but why did not any of the three Aes Sedai with Mat Cauthon learn the Traveling weave from Verin?

FelixPax
12-02-2010, 04:31 AM
You recall that the Wise Ones once sent three members to the Cairhien Library to research the Seals? And the Wise Ones sat in the Terhana Library in Bandar Eban too?

If there was something to learn further about the Seals in a given Library, one should have guessed the Wise Ones or an Aes Sedai would have already found it. The only Library perhaps not fully checked yet, might be in Cairhien at Rand's Academy.

Didn't the White Tower Library burn once or twice since the Breaking?
Egwene has knowledge of those events I recall too.

Only the Browns know how to read

A Green, named Cadsuane can read too. Then there's a Blue, named Moiraine as well. ;)

GonzoTheGreat
12-02-2010, 05:29 AM
A Green, named Cadsuane can read too. Then there's a Blue, named Moiraine as well. ;)They are really Browns who went undercover in those Ajahs in order to study them. Just as Verin did, really.

Oh, and if Mat decides he wants to destroy something, then he'll figure out a way to do it. He is undoubtedly cleverer than a committee made up of 9 AS.

jana
12-02-2010, 08:36 AM
A Green, named Cadsuane can read too. Then there's a Blue, named Moiraine as well. ;)

They only pretended they could read.

GonzoTheGreat
12-02-2010, 08:51 AM
They only pretended they could read."I do read sometimes."
"Treasures. Dealings. Lots of things in books."

SixPips
12-02-2010, 08:52 AM
I have always felt the Browns have been mislabeled, often at the behest of the browns. it seems like every time an Aes Sedai of another ajah has any realistic interaction with a brown, the thought pattern is always "She seems so much more aware of the world than browns usually are." or "She snapped out of her dreamy gaze at the book staring hawkeyed and sharp."

I believe the browns have instigated the misconception that they are unaware of the world on purpose. Verin many times would pretend to be not paying attention, allowing people to be much more open and carefree in their conversations.

As for Brown versus White, consider the fact that everything we know period about the Bore and the Age of Legends was researched from old documents that browns had unearthed. The whites don't analyze knowledge, they analyze thought patterns and reasoning, the why of someone making a decision is much more relevant to them than the gist of the decision, thus is the Head of the White Ajah called the First Reasoner (or Head Reasoner, either one.)

I would compare it to this: man A is trying to learn the battle strategies of of a thousand year old war, while man B is trying to understand what drove the men to fight in the first place. A = Brown Ajah application and gathering of knowledge B = White Ajah reasoning and logic.

White or Brown, I don't think an Aes Sedai will be able to find the answer as they are too set in their thinking patterns and this is clearly an obstacle outside their realm. That said, any gainful information would come from a Brown.

WinespringBrother
12-02-2010, 09:13 AM
White Ajah would be my choice, that is the Ajah that Herid Fel would have belonged to...

Why would someone think Alviarin is a good choice though? She was not White Ajah in the first place! And I have never seen her use logic or philosophy or mathematics in any meaningful way, rather she derides Aes Sedai who discuss those topics.

CreationEdge
12-02-2010, 10:02 AM
This reminds me of a scene where there's two sisters arguing about One Power related math, concerning the rate of decay.

They mentioned someone's constant, etc.


Anyone recall this argument? Wasn't it a White and a Brown both arguing, or was it two Browns or two Whites?

WinespringBrother
12-02-2010, 10:51 AM
This reminds me of a scene where there's two sisters arguing about One Power related math, concerning the rate of decay.

They mentioned someone's constant, etc.


Anyone recall this argument? Wasn't it a White and a Brown both arguing, or was it two Browns or two Whites?

That's one of the scenes I was referring to, it was 2 whites arguing about 2 different mathematical methods to analyze spoilage of food, in the White Ajah quarters, as Alviarin was walking by while eavesdropping, and thinking that the Dark One's touch is finally be noticed.

alleluia_cone
12-02-2010, 12:45 PM
Egwene would have to do it herself; she doesn't trust anyone else. The other problem is that the most knowledgeable people on the subject are either Black Ajah or worse (i.e., Mierin Eronaile).

Belazamon
12-02-2010, 02:26 PM
If cough Verin met the "extremely competent" standard in TofM book... She WOULD have literally wrote Matrim Cauthon how to destroy a Waygate. Verin did not even know a Waygate could be destroyed until Loial mentioned to offhand to Faile, Perrin, Gaul and herself
Extremely confident ≠ omniscient.

yasiru89
12-03-2010, 02:35 AM
About Verin not showing Joline and the rest the weave for Travelling, I reckon it was partly because she needed Mat to be directed as she wished and partly because she was unsure of the women's loyalties. She probably hid her ability and inverted the weaves.

The way to seal the Bore wouldn't be in the past, there would be clues (though I doubt very much that even the original writers knew how they all come together), but Min has sufficed so far in tackling those. The Whites on the other hand, as with Seaine's methods of defeating the Oath Rod (Egwene did trust her and her Sitter friends!), are known to explore possibilities without fetter- this probably makes them better, if they had any idea what they're on about. A collaboration would be best, but again- no idea what they're on about.
The only one with the knowledge and the mind I can think of is Moridin himself (or Lanfear, but she doesn't seem aware of the cyclic nature of this struggle)!

Toss the dice
12-03-2010, 03:12 PM
It's quite simple to me. What on earth can the Browns really do? Sure they're all good for detailing the anatomy of a flower or maybe stringing a few words of the Old Tongue together.. but that's it. They're very limited because the sources themselves that they will look to are limited.

There are barely any records from the Trolloc Wars that have survived history and even fewer from the Age of Legends. There is nothing that the Browns can bring to the table. Whilst they collect knowledge the White Ajah strives to understand knowledge.

The problem with the Prison and the Seal, the Dark One and the Pattern, ta'veren &c. are clearly philosophical/theological in nature and therefore fall in the province of the White Ajah.

I find it funny how you paint the Brown as worthless yet champion the White, as if Aes Sedai in general, all ajahs included, aren't ALL worthless in the first place.

Nafro
12-03-2010, 03:44 PM
The best part of this thread is where Felix quotes a Perrin POV from TFoH. Lulz.

Terez
12-03-2010, 08:24 PM
Herid Fel was 100% Brown. Big difference between logic and philosophy, though the former usually falls under the purview of the latter in the academic world. Fel was a student of history and philosophy, and his personality was far more like a Brown than a White.

Just saying.