PDA

View Full Version : just finished ToM


Yellowbeard
12-02-2010, 10:18 AM
i know...late to the party. and i realize everything i post about will have been discussed already. was probably discussed on release day + 1. i just wanted to post my thoughts.

- moiraine - yup she's back. with a neat, tidy explanation for how lanfear got turned into a slightly weaker cyndane. i suspect it will be her and nynaeve that use callandor with rand.

would have been cool if she'd woke up and been able to channel at the 'finns during the fight to escape.

surfed for a thread looking for frenzy's reaction to moiraine's return but couldn't find it in the brief time i looked. will find it eventually. i expect it will be entertaining. ;-)

the whole resuce scene did seem a bit quick, but overall i liked it. i did expect mat to at least try to weasel his way out of losing an eye, but it seemed like the thought process was "i was told a few years ago i'd lose the eye doing this...nothing to do but get it over with". seemed too simple. i'd expected something along the lines of "we've got moiraine, but we can't escape because the 'finns can see thru my eyes. moiraine, you need rip an eye out to take away their intelligence source so we can outfox them and escape."

mat's ashanderi being the key to escaping though...i liked that. but what is special about that weapon that makes it work like that? was it specially made for just that purpose by some AS in the AoL?

- black tower - it's obvious they are turning BT residents to the shadow. we all suspect the 13+13 trick. and rand is not gonna be the one to sort it out. it will be logain. the vision of him stepping over rand's fake body...not sure what it means, but will have something to do with rand fading out of the picture and logain stepping in to defeat the threat the BT obviously poses. he'll kill taim, and come up with some way to destroy the BT and most of those in it. maybe the gateway weave/explosion trick?

- perrin - i just have to say that i like BS writing perrin and faile much better than RJ. i still hope faile dies a gruesome death.

- gawyn - so much for T's gawyn kills rand theory. he knows rand didn't kill his mother for certain now. and he'll know rand basically freed andor from rahvin soon enough if not already.

-egwene - seems to have become much more of b*tch since BS started writing her. don't like her at all. hoping for gruesome death. she needs to become more supportive of the dragon instead of continuing her obstruction of what the dragon needs to do.

- seanchan - for pete's sake...can we have a scene where tuon is forced to channel, or some major seanchan smackdown occurs, and the empire is forced to recognize keeping channelers as worse than slaves is wrong? i'm so sick of that particular conflict in the story. i know it probably won't be resolved, i sure wish it could be.

- rand's growth - he's obviously now fully integrated rand/LTT man. and his comment to cadsuane that he's basically the world's oldest, most experienced AS now (and him including himself in the ranks of AS as the only living male AS on the side of the light)...just thought it was cool. so awesome to see him finally be able to shut her yapping the hell up!

overall, he carries himself with much more composure and grace. very nice to see. i like it.

- lan - goodbye to my favorite character i guess. his charge won't reach the trolloc lines. they'll have a few channelers with a force that large, and archers alone will outnumber him 4 or 5 to one. total waste. don't like.

- red veiled aiel - don't think they're genetically aiel. just people that live in the blight and have managed to stay hidden. probably some enclave somewhere so they can avoid all the jumara and other nasty beasties. everything else that lives in the blight gets corrupted, plant and animal. people would be corrupted too. not surprising really.

- demandred - still no confirmation as to where he is. maybe rand will win the LB, demandred is placed somewhere where he still isn't found out and just decides...well..might as well just stay hidden and be king now. and he lives happily ever after.

- future of the aiel - well, the prophecy says only a remnant of a remnant will live on past the last battle. avienda saw why. i've wondered before...will they mostly be wiped out in the last battle...doesn't make logical sense. now we see what's going to cause only a remnant of a remnant to live on. the aiel that don't return to the way of the leaf will be destroyed. period. and only a remnant of a remnant will be willing to do it.

- the cyndane dream - moridin planted her there thru his link w/ rand to get past rand's dream wards. no way she'd beg rand/LTT for help. she hates him. tried to BF him at the cleansing and WILL kill him if she gets the chance. it's a trick by moridin.

- fain - rand is going to shayol ghul soon. fain is in the blight. and thinking it's time to kill rand, and then the DO. seems kind of obvious fain will be at shayol ghul for the big showdown. rand knows something has to touch the DO to hold him back while the bore is fixed. and it can't be done with the one power without providing a conduit to taint the power. fain will be the plot tool that saves the day as lots of us have suspected for quite some time.

i do have a pet theory that the red veiled people in the blight are fain's creation though. he has the ability to corrupt those around him. could he be the cause for corrupted people in the blight?

i also think it's rather obvious now that fain was able to impersonate sammael to order the big trolloc attack on rand in KoD. i wrote a theory on that a while back, still believe in it.

- dragons - how much you want to bet that elayne brought her artillery with her army to the fields of...merrilor? sorry - can't remember exact spelling.

- curing taint madness - nynaeve did it. how come she's not spreading word of how to do it? it seems like a rather major development that's not getting it's due.

also, rand appears to have some sort of shield against the taint. nynaeve found that barrier between his mind and the taint that has built up in him. yet another way in which he has turned out to be unique.

it does sort of blow the taint degradation theory out of the water though. since he is protected against the taint, it appears his LTT memories would have come back to him even if saidin had not been tainted.

- asmodean killing solved - *burp*. would have been better for it to have been sammael, using the TP. just so it wasn't so predictable. and all thru TFoH sammael talks about how is going to do it. i believe i wrote a theory on it once.

i did hope for a more descriptive resolution...a la killer saying "i was there for such and such...had hidden...he walked right in on me...so i off'd him because he was a traitor and i had to stay concealed to protect such and such plans."

- transmigration - did RJ ever put that term in a book? moridin uses it in chapter 5, i believe, but prior to that i thought it had been a term used exclusively by the fandom. was a bit disappointed to see it in the text of the book. seems to me that BS let a bit of fandom seep in and i'd rather it not have happened. don't think RJ would have used that term.

-during the scenes where avienda sees the future...her daughter ruminates on rand never returning from SG, like it's some mystery what happens to him and the world never finds out the details. how can that be? we know mat at least will survive, which means a channeler will be needed to help him escape as he'll need a gateway. there will be survivors that can tell the story, so it makes no sense that it's a mystery later.

overall, loved the book. but i wonder if RJ perhaps put in too much foreshadowing. things are playing out in a way that is too predictable. at least to me. looking forward to the last book and the resolution of the story, but i hope there are some surprises that none of us saw coming.

i predict that rand, mat, perrin, thom, moiraine, and nynaeve, alivia, faile, and probably a few others in rand's entourage (perhaps cadsuane or tam) go to SG. seals are broken, DO is confronted, and his prison remade anew. at least nynaeve and moiraine and rand all die. since lan is toast very shortly, nynaeve will be in a mood where she wants to go out in a blaze of glory when she feels him die. thom won't leave w/out moiraine so thom buys the farm as well. mat obviously escapes after the deed is done. perrin and faile probably do as well. some channeler has to escape as they'll need a gateway to get away. here's hoping it's alivia and cadsuane dies a gruesome, horrible death at SG.

i find the AS annoying in general at this point, i can see it being a rather entertaining end if they all eventually end up on Seanchan leashes per avi's visions.

jana
12-02-2010, 10:23 AM
I think I'd be okay with Moiraine dying if done well, but if she dies and Perrin survives I'm going to be dangerous to be around for a long time.


Transmigration was never used in the series before but RJ said it several times in interviews. I don't think it not being in the series prior to now matters as much in this case because the only time we would have seen it was from Moridin talking to one of the Chosen who had a new body. There hasn't been a lot of opportunity.

Toss the dice
12-02-2010, 11:24 AM
it does sort of blow the taint degradation theory out of the water though. since he is protected against the taint, it appears his LTT memories would have come back to him even if saidin had not been tainted.

Boo yah.

Yellowbeard
12-02-2010, 11:28 AM
Transmigration was never used in the series before but RJ said it several times in interviews. I don't think it not being in the series prior to now matters as much in this case because the only time we would have seen it was from Moridin talking to one of the Chosen who had a new body. There hasn't been a lot of opportunity.

there've also been times when the resurrected chosen have had opportunity to use the term while remembering their death/resurrection, but have not.

but it's just a minor complaint of mine.

GonzoTheGreat
12-02-2010, 11:41 AM
surfed for a thread looking for frenzy's reaction to moiraine's return but couldn't find it in the brief time i looked. will find it eventually. i expect it will be entertaining. ;-)Read and find out (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4617).

- gawyn - so much for T's gawyn kills rand theory. he knows rand didn't kill his mother for certain now. and he'll know rand basically freed andor from rahvin soon enough if not already.And you assume this because they are all so hot on information sharing?

-egwene - seems to have become much more of b*tch since BS started writing her. don't like her at all. hoping for gruesome death. she needs to become more supportive of the dragon instead of continuing her obstruction of what the dragon needs to do.Well, you know, the Dragon could also start supporting her.

i also think it's rather obvious now that fain was able to impersonate sammael to order the big trolloc attack on rand in KoD. i wrote a theory on that a while back, still believe in it.Trouble is that there were also Myrddraal involved in that attack, and Fain no longer can handle those, because they're too fragile.
So your theory can't use Fain as he is now, but if you discard that, then you're without factual support again.

- curing taint madness - nynaeve did it. how come she's not spreading word of how to do it? it seems like a rather major development that's not getting it's due.Sharing information?

also, rand appears to have some sort of shield against the taint. nynaeve found that barrier between his mind and the taint that has built up in him. yet another way in which he has turned out to be unique.

it does sort of blow the taint degradation theory out of the water though. since he is protected against the taint, it appears his LTT memories would have come back to him even if saidin had not been tainted.That shield probably came into existence at the end of TGS, so it's not really a significant issue in this particular discussion.

-during the scenes where avienda sees the future...her daughter ruminates on rand never returning from SG, like it's some mystery what happens to him and the world never finds out the details. how can that be? we know mat at least will survive, which means a channeler will be needed to help him escape as he'll need a gateway. there will be survivors that can tell the story, so it makes no sense that it's a mystery later.Maybe Mat gets bored half way through, and takes a nap.

i find the AS annoying in general at this point, i can see it being a rather entertaining end if they all eventually end up on Seanchan leashes per avi's visions.That would be ... bad ... wouldn't it?
It shouldn't happen, but I can understand the temptation.

Toss the dice
12-02-2010, 12:09 PM
That would be ... bad ... wouldn't it?
It shouldn't happen, but I can understand the temptation.

I would be thrilled to see Egwene end up leashed, then for some reason sent back to mainland Seanchan, where she is never heard from again.

"Tuli is such a good damane, yes she is."

Casabamelon
12-02-2010, 12:58 PM
- lan - goodbye to my favorite character i guess. his charge won't reach the trolloc lines. they'll have a few channelers with a force that large, and archers alone will outnumber him 4 or 5 to one. total waste. don't like.


Trollocs have archers?


- demandred - still no confirmation as to where he is. maybe rand will win the LB, demandred is placed somewhere where he still isn't found out and just decides...well..might as well just stay hidden and be king now. and he lives happily ever after.


That would actually be quite awesome. Especially if we had a POV from Demandred, but never could actually figure out who he was.


- the cyndane dream - moridin planted her there thru his link w/ rand to get past rand's dream wards. no way she'd beg rand/LTT for help. she hates him. tried to BF him at the cleansing and WILL kill him if she gets the chance. it's a trick by moridin.


I thought she was obsessed with LTT and the living embodiment of "a fine line between love and hate" but definitely love/obsession is there.
________
Hot Box Vaporizer (http://hotboxvaporizers.com)

Grig
12-02-2010, 01:06 PM
Trollocs have archers?

Is that a serious question? A trolloc archer shot Perrin in tSR, it was kind of a big thing.

Toss the dice
12-02-2010, 02:07 PM
I thought she was obsessed with LTT and the living embodiment of "a fine line between love and hate" but definitely love/obsession is there.

I'm in the camp where Mierin was the one that came into Rand's dreams. It was either in TSR or TFoH where Lanfear told Rand "I could break through your warding. You wouldn't like it." So I definately think she's capable of it. Add to that the situation of her being "tortured" by the DO/SH/Moridin (assuming thats real), and I can see how her attitude could change from wanting to kill him to coming to him for help. I'm sure she still loves him regardless, and theres the whole love/hate thing that someone else mentioned.

The other huge thing for me dealing with this is the fact that Mierin was one of the two who drilled the hole in the Bore. We still haven't got the whole story of that btw, why she did it, the details regarding what happened to her immediately afterwards. This whole Mierin thing just screams that she will help seal the Bore or something along those lines. She would be the perfect (albeit almost cliche) character to switch sides at the very end and help Lews Therin defeat the Dark One. She's not simply going to proverbially fade in importance, not after that scene in the ToM epilogue. Big things.

Yellowbeard
12-02-2010, 03:33 PM
i just don't see her ambition allowing her to switch sides. aside from moridin, the rest of the chosen want the DO to shower power, immortality, and all manners of awesomeness when he breaks free. they believe that will happen. lanfear didn't change overnight. she wants it as badly as she ever did.

i don't see it as unrelated that graendal lost favor and was told opportunity for greatness had been given to another and then we see cyndane pop up in rand's dream in this manner. she's still the same person, has the same desires, and will still use the same methods as much as she can to try to obtain what she wants. moridin is giving her what used to be graendal's chance now.

it's idle speculation, but perhaps moridin is even giving her a chance to be freed from the mindtrap if she's successful. or at least told her that. and he might even really free her...for the whole 3 seconds she'd still exist 'til the DO extinguishes existence after the approximate time she was freed. he'd see that as rather grand joke to play on her.

speaking of mindtraps, i wonder what's up with moggy?

Cairn
12-02-2010, 04:14 PM
-egwene - seems to have become much more of b*tch since BS started writing her. don't like her at all. hoping for gruesome death. she needs to become more supportive of the dragon instead of continuing her obstruction of what the dragon needs to do.

I have a little bit of issue with the Egwene hate overall so I'll defend her on this point.

Let's imagine Rand just one book ago trying to break the seals just to get it all over with (which he mentions as an option). Would Egwene trying to convince him otherwise have been so terrible then?

Personally I think BS has done the best job with Egwene of any character. I find it very difficult to pick out his writing of her versus RJ's.

I will agree the way she handled Gawyn was terrible, but for all her vaunted wisdom she is all of... 20? How many 20 year old girls do you know that handle their affairs of the heart well? Plus, everybody also seems to despise Gawyn, so as a fan base I'd think people would love her for this.

Regardless, I am fairly certain Rand planned and wanted Egwene to do exactly as she's done. In essence Rand is using this as a means to bring everyone together.

EDIT: Oh, and Mierin is totally coming back to the Light. It will be her (and not Demandred) that essentially walks off into the sunset as a huge question mark for the future.

amazinglarry
12-02-2010, 05:13 PM
Personally I think BS has done the best job with Egwene of any character. I find it very difficult to pick out his writing of her versus RJ's.

I will agree the way she handled Gawyn was terrible, but for all her vaunted wisdom she is all of... 20? How many 20 year old girls do you know that handle their affairs of the heart well? Plus, everybody also seems to despise Gawyn, so as a fan base I'd think people would love her for this.

Egwene is a very frustrating character, but I think she's written that way on purpose. RJ and BS have gone to great lengths to show her accomplishing great things and having moments of brilliance juxtaposed by boneheaded shortsightedness and a general failure to see things from any perspective other than her own. I think the Egwene hate-fest amongst the fandom shows that her characterization has been very successful. She has amazing capacity for leadership but serious problems with inexperience, and the balance between these two aspects has been evident in her plotline throughout the later books.

amazinglarry

morat'corlm
12-02-2010, 07:59 PM
lanfear didn't change overnight. she wants it as badly as she ever did.Like when she offered–and meant it, as her POV shows–to help Rand use the Choedan Kal to overcome Shai'tan?boneheaded shortsightedness and a general failure to see things from any perspective other than her own.Well, we see this. No other characters see it, which pushes her dangerously close to Mary Sue territory.

Yellowbeard
12-02-2010, 08:10 PM
Like when she offered–and meant it, as her POV shows–to help Rand use the Choedan Kal to overcome Shai'tan?

lanfear was always highly ambitious in getting herself more and more power. she's still gonna be just as power hungry as she was then. and moridin is giving her an opportunity where she at least believes she can get more power.

so...yeah...exactly like when she wanted to team w/ rand to use the CK to overcome shai'tan.

GonzoTheGreat
12-03-2010, 04:03 AM
Let's imagine Rand just one book ago trying to break the seals just to get it all over with (which he mentions as an option). Would Egwene trying to convince him otherwise have been so terrible then?Maybe, maybe not.

The issue is not so much that she tries to convince him not to do it.
The issue is that she seems to have no thought at all that maybe it might be possible that Rand is actually right about this.

We know that Rand is the only one who has any chance of success against the DO, if anyone has such a chance. Egwene knows this too. Yet she ignores this knowledge, and assumes that Rand's judgment in opposing the DO can not be trusted by definition.

She is about 24 hours away from a situation where "either you are with Rand, or you are with the Shadow", and she's not with Rand in this. She seems to be willing to actually fight in mortal combat in order to defend the DO against the DR.

Yellowbeard
12-03-2010, 08:11 AM
well, rand is gonna have to somehow explain to everyone the following:

-he remembers his whole prior life as LTT in detail. it's like he said to cadsuane, he's not a young 20-something boy at this point. he's got the mind of a 400+ year old aes sedai that's been raised to the title and has a depth of experience that none of the rest of them can even begin to approach.

-he remembers how he CREATED the current seals.

-which means he knows more about the nature of the bore, the hole in the DO's prison, and the weaves that created them. (didn't demandred note he could see the weaves of saidin that were built into the bore as he descended into the pit of doom once?). i.e. - he knows the structure of the bore and the hole in the DO's prison.

-he knows the seals he set as LTT were a failure.

shouldn't be too hard to explain that he's the most knowledgeable about solving the problem of resealing the DO's prison in a way that is undeniable.

it's just he's also gotta be able to convince everyone he knows how to successfully reseal the DO as well, which he really doesn't know. perhaps he'll reveal what the snakes/foxes told him on his trip thru the doorway.

which makes me wonder what was his bargain that he made with them?

jana
12-03-2010, 08:12 AM
which makes me wonder what was his bargain that he made with them?

There are no bargains through the Tear doorway, and he didn't go through the other.

finn
12-03-2010, 12:30 PM
Let's imagine Rand just one book ago trying to break the seals just to get it all over with (which he mentions as an option). Would Egwene trying to convince him otherwise have been so terrible then? In the last book we had Lews Therin confirming Min's theory about breaking the seals so yes, Egwene putting her foot down especially without any knowledge of the matter would be off-putting even then. This question has been raised repeatedly over the last several books. We now have a Borderlander prophecy thrown in with the opinions of LTT, Fel & Min. At the least we've seen the latter two research and put some thought into the matter. Egwene's objections stem from her prejudices, Seals=good & Rand=mad.

Regardless, I am fairly certain Rand planned and wanted Egwene to do exactly as she's done. In essence Rand is using this as a means to bring everyone together.
Agreed. He's probably counting on Egwene's tendency to contradict him, knowing that in the end she'll probably turn it around and pretend she was for the idea all along.

EDIT: Oh, and Mierin is totally coming back to the Light. It will be her (and not Demandred) that essentially walks off into the sunset as a huge question mark for the future.Doubtful. The dream seems fishy. Elayne's Ackbar statue says:

It's a trap!

Well, we see this. No other characters see it, which pushes her dangerously close to Mary Sue territory.
Sadly, that's true. I had trouble seeing it too in Gathering Storm, with only a few possible exceptions. One example that stands out is when she demanded the rebel AS make an apology while she got away with an acknowledgment despite having led them against the WT.

I like her better now that her character appears more balanced. Gawyn proved to her that she could err but of course, he couldn't really call her on it as both of them had to work out their issues together. Perrin made her look infantile, she attempting to bully him about Rand and bind him the moment she sees him. While Perrin in comparison is mature, cool-headed and slightly amused but nevertheless he leaves feeling genuinely happy for her that she finally got to become AS. Nynaeve has let her bully her too long to make any real stand now. The Wise Ones are mostly about recognizing woman power, be it in Egwene, Cadsuane or Berelain. Elayne's too loyal and Mat's easily manipulated. I think Rand's the only one left who sees it.