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Vidulous
12-03-2010, 12:22 AM
!--TOWERS OF MIDNIGHT SPOILERS FOLLOW!
Sorry, I posted it in the wrong section.


Wow. In rereading Leigh's reread recently, I came across the following post, which was the first time I have ever seen what I consider to be a satisfactory answer to the question "WTF was the Eye of the World made for?"

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2009/02/the-wheel-of-time-re-read-the-eye-of-the-world-part-7#90468

This makes SO MUCH sense to me. It's so very Ishy, too. The gist of the idea is that the Eye was made to battle the DO in Tarmon Gaidon, perhaps to reseal him, and that by leading our heroes to it prematurely, Ishamael prevented it from being used for this purpose.

So I'm thinking: We learn in ToM that Ishamael has this big book of Dark Prophecy. Judging by its size, it's evidently something he's been compiling for a long time, maybe since as far back as the Breaking. Maybe one of the prophecies makes mention of cleansed saidin being used in the reresealing of the DO. Let's assume that there is such a prophecy. Knowing Ishamael as we do, we can probably also assume that he took his default position - something as audacious as cleansing the entire True Source was impossible in the AoL so it is unthinkable in this backward Age. He has had thoughts along these lines many times before, in reference to the a'dam, the warder bond, etc. So when he saw a reference to cleansed saidin being used, his immediate assumption was that it meant the Eye - saidin that has already been cleansed.

Now, I am gonna go out on another limb and posit that the Eye was shielded from Darkfriends. Perhaps not intentionally, but effectively. It is said that only those in great need, not those seeking glory etc., will be able to find it. Given that the seekingment of eternal power and glory is pretty much a prerequisite for being a Darkfriend, it is doubtful any DF would qualify.

Well then how did Aginor and Balthamel find it, you say? I'm glad you asked. I've always thought it curious that Aginor makes specific mention of what drew them there - the Shadar Logoth dagger in Mat's possession. It seems odd to mention that they followed it there if they could have got there without it. So presumably it acted as a sort of unintentional homing device; however, I think even without it, Ishamael would have been able to use the ta'veren to locate the Eye and Travel there. This was probably his original plan.

So anyway. The Eye is effectively shielded from Darkfriends. Ishamael is convinced that the Eye is one of the keys to defeating the DO, and so he is desperate to "blind" it, but he can't reach it. So he has Rand et al reach if for him. Battle ensues, Aginor and Rand use up the Eye, and it is gone. Score one for Team Dark. No more Eye.

(Note that Ishamael doesn't seem the least bit surprised that Aginor tried to use the saidin from the Eye; he probably knew that would happen. He also doesn't seem to particularly mind. He wants the saidin there gone, he's not really bothered how.)

This has interesting implications. A couple years down the line, Rand announces he is gonna cleanse saidin, and Ishamael, who up until that point had (almost always) been extremely anti-killing-Rand, suddenly lifts this prohibition. I can almost see his face when it all clicks - he has interpreted the prophecy incorrectly, or perhaps he did interpret it correctly and the pattern is simply providing another way for it to be fulfilled.

To summarize:

The Eye was originally meant to be used in reresealing the DO.
Ishamael sneakily forced its use too early, rendering it useless.
The Pattern gets pissed off and says "oh yeah? well how about I up my man's mad skillz to the point where he can cleanse da whole tru sourz, biyatch".
The Shadow is like, damn.

I know this is nearly all conjecture but I think it all makes sense.

Belazamon
12-03-2010, 01:03 AM
I like it, and can't see anything immediately wrong with it (except, of course, the forum on which it's posted).

New Futurist Man
12-03-2010, 07:32 PM
Very credible theory.

Isn't it strange though that if the original intention of the Eye was a well to be drawn on to defeat the Dark One - that there was so little of it!?

Aginor and Rand combined to empty it in a short space of time - which beggars the question: How was it to be deployed against the Dark One?

Its possible that the Eye was only one part of a larger jigsaw which, when combined, would have provided a formidable weapon for, we have to assume, the Dragon Reborn. However whatever these elements were, Ishamael would appear to have unearthed both the plan and all its components a long time ago, scuppering it to the extent that all that was left was to track down and destroy the Eye...

However, its reasonable to assume that there were other plans to defeat the Dark One other than LTT's and the one to employ the Choedan Kal. Perhaps the Eye originally figured in one of these.

Juan
12-03-2010, 10:14 PM
Sounds reasonable to me. Good job!

Marie Curie 7
12-04-2010, 11:30 AM
To summarize:

The Eye was originally meant to be used in reresealing the DO.
Ishamael sneakily forced its use too early, rendering it useless.
The Pattern gets pissed off and says "oh yeah? well how about I up my man's mad skillz to the point where he can cleanse da whole tru sourz, biyatch".
The Shadow is like, damn.


The Dragon banner and the Horn of Valere were hidden under or within the Eye, and they weren't found until the Eye was consumed. But we know that the Horn was prophesied to be found just in time for the Last Battle:

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 5 - The Shadow in Shienar

"'The grave is no bar to my call,'" she translated, so softly she seemed to be speaking to herself. "The Horn of Valere, made to call dead heroes back from the grave. And prophecy said it would only be found just in time for the Last Battle." Abruptly she thrust the Horn back into its niche and closed the lid as if she could no longer bear the sight of it. "Agelmar pushed it into my hands as soon as the Welcome was done. He said he was afraid to go into his own strongroom any longer, with it there. The temptation was too great, he said. To sound the Horn himself and lead the host that answered its call north through the Blight to level Shayol Ghul itself and put an end to the Dark One. He burned with the ecstasy of glory, and it was that, he said, that told him it was not to be him, must not be him. He could not wait to be rid of it, yet he wanted it still."

And the banner was also part of the prophecy:

TOR Questions of the Week, December 2003 to April 2004

Week 1 Question: Was the Horn of Valere known and used in the Age of Legends? Or did it only appear in the Third Age?

Robert Jordan Answers: The Horn of Valere was known in the Age of Legends, though it was an artifact of an earlier age, but it was never used in the Age of Legends. In part, this was because there wasn't any need in an Age that knew universal peace, but also it was because what it could do was considered a sort of myth by most people in that Age. No one who is serious spends time trying to test out whether a myth might be real. (Seen anybody sacrificing a white bull to Jupiter lately?) And once the Dark One touched the world, before the War of the Shadow actually began, the Horn was among the items lost, and thought destroyed, in the first rush of mob violence, terrorism etc. So it wasn't available for use then even had someone wanted to try. It was later recovered and sealed up with the Dragon Banner because along with the Foretellings that made up the Prophecies of the Dragon was one saying that it must be.

If the theory is that the Eye was originally intended to be used to seal the Dark One, then it seems odd that Prophecy would state that the Horn and banner would be found just in time for the Last Battle. The Eye would have to be consumed before the Horn and banner were revealed.

The Eye may not have been used for its intended purpose, but it seems to me unlikely that it was originally intended to be used in sealing the Dark One since the Horn and banner were placed there intentionally.

Nae'blis
12-04-2010, 11:51 AM
Please keep any and all threads with Towers of Midnight spoilers in them in the Towers of Midnight forum.

BiteOnThis
12-04-2010, 05:33 PM
It makes sense but the problem is that even though Saidin was used to seal the bore last time it was imperfect, ajd the Dark One was able to begin to get free again.

But this then begins to get into my own theory of how they may have to make wells to fight the Dark One as when something is touching it, it gets tainted. Use a well and in theory only the well gets messed up.

Marie Curie 7
12-04-2010, 07:44 PM
Isn't it strange though that if the original intention of the Eye was a well to be drawn on to defeat the Dark One - that there was so little of it!?

Aginor and Rand combined to empty it in a short space of time - which beggars the question: How was it to be deployed against the Dark One?

Yeah, they did seem to use it up quickly, but it was apparently quite a lot of saidin. Moiraine mentioned it:

TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 52 - Neither Beginning Nor End

"There was a vast amount of the One Power in the Eye. Even in the Age of Legends, few could have channeled so much unaided without being destroyed. Very few."

And RJ later confirmed that it was indeed a large amount of saidin:

Melbourne book signing 28 August 1999 - Mark Erikson reporting

I asked him about Aginor getting younger at the end of The Eye of the World, and he said 'no, he doesn't get younger, he dies'. So I actually looked up the reference and read it to him. He said 'oh, that,' and then went on to explain that it is actually the True Power, not the saidin from the Eye, that rejuvenates him. He did describe the saidin in the Eye as a 'mother-load' (sic) , however, I didn't think to ask him what he meant by that until I was in the car going home.


Its possible that the Eye was only one part of a larger jigsaw which, when combined, would have provided a formidable weapon for, we have to assume, the Dragon Reborn. However whatever these elements were, Ishamael would appear to have unearthed both the plan and all its components a long time ago, scuppering it to the extent that all that was left was to track down and destroy the Eye...

However, its reasonable to assume that there were other plans to defeat the Dark One other than LTT's and the one to employ the Choedan Kal. Perhaps the Eye originally figured in one of these.

It couldn't have been part of a plan to seal the Dark One - the Eye was made after the Bore was sealed and saidin was tainted.

Blue Nine
12-04-2010, 09:24 PM
Do we know for sure that there was only one Eye? What if there were a network of pools of purified Saidin? If a series of channelers used these pools in coordination, that might provide enough power to reseal the Bore.

Marie Curie 7
12-05-2010, 11:17 AM
Do we know for sure that there was only one Eye? What if there were a network of pools of purified Saidin? If a series of channelers used these pools in coordination, that might provide enough power to reseal the Bore.

Well, considering that it took a hundred Aes Sedai working together to create the one that we do know about, and they died doing it, I would say that it's pretty unlikely that any others were made. Plus, there is no evidence whatsoever to suggest that any other Eyes were made.

Vidulous
12-06-2010, 08:25 PM
I do apologise for posting in the wrong section. Won't happen again.

I have to say the Horn of Valere/Dragon Banner problem never occurred to me, despite the fact that Moiraine specifically wonders whether the Eye was only made to cover those things. Hmm.

How about: the saidin was to be used in reresealing the DO, at which point the Horn would be used to help killing all the Darksiders still left. And the Dragon Banner... er... was needed for the Horn to be used! Since Artur Hawkwing seems reluctant to ride without it.

A little thin, I agree.

I guess the problem is we don't even know what the makers of the Eye intended it to be used for. I think RJ mentioned it was made in response to a prophecy, though I can't find the quote; if this is the case, perhaps even they did not know. But I think even if we did know, it might not help.

What the Pattern needs and what people think is needed are not always the same. I'm thinking of things like the Stone of Tear, which presumably to the humans that built it was made to be a fortress. But to the Pattern it was necessary for the DR to be able to proclaim himself. The same might be true of the Eye; people needed a reason to build it, so they made it with the intention of the DR using it to reseal the DO. But maybe the Pattern knew (inasmuch as the Pattern can "know" anything) exactly how it would eventually be used, and the use Rand and Aginor put it to was the right one.

My brain hurts.

Vidulous
12-06-2010, 09:23 PM
This whole thing has started me wondering if ANY power, True or One, will be used in the reresealing. If saidin and/or saidar are used they will probably be tainted, and if the TP is used... well, I can't picture New Rand using it for any reason.

Maybe the simple ta'verenness of the three boys concentrated in one place will be enough. But I guess that would be the single dullest ending ever. Rand, Mat and Perrin go to Shayol Ghul and... stand there for a while.

Anyway, that's another topic, and my mind has wandered quite far enough today.

Juan
12-06-2010, 09:55 PM
Do we know for sure that there was only one Eye?

Oh. And here I thought I had two eyes.

Fie
12-07-2010, 02:13 AM
If I remember rightly , there were not "only" the Horn and the Banner, but one seal as well.
So, to me, guarding a seal, the HoV and the Dragonbanner would be a good enough purpose for the Eye. Additionally the EotW incident leads to Rand realizing he IS a channeler and convinces Moiraine that he is the Dragon so I don't feel the need to think that it was supposed to have yet one more function (being used in the resealing).
And, as it was Loial who told Moiraine that the Eye was in danger, I suppose that he'd known and told them if there were more than that one EotW.


;D also we could always take Mat now just having one eye as a definite proof that there's just one EotW

Jokeslayer
12-07-2010, 02:27 AM
So, to me, guarding a seal, the HoV and the Dragonbanner would be a good enough purpose for the Eye.

How exactly did the pool of saidin protect anything?

Fie
12-07-2010, 03:09 AM
I don't know if I'm right, it's just my take. The "things" in the Eye (Seal, Horn,Banner) were important enough to be protected twice. It is the last Nymś' (the Green Man) job and I think that the very mass of Saidin did protect them as well, because not just any stray chaneller could come and draw the Saidin and detect the hidden things, but it was the Dragon Reborn.

An interesting aspect is, what exactly did the DO want ? Perrin/Egwene or Perrin/Nynaeve, I think (I hope my planned christmas big reread will work out fine), were told by the tinkers that he wanted to use it for his own purpose. But what ? The hidden things (Horn to be sounded by one of his trusted, Banner to draw Hawkwing to his own army, seal self-evident, sure,...) or the pure untainted saidin itself ? Was he just sulking that he hadn't every little bit of saidin tainted or did he have a special plan for it ? I'm wondering, but, well, it's gone now, so probably we won't know.

Weird Harold
12-07-2010, 03:22 AM
I guess the problem is we don't even know what the makers of the Eye intended it to be used for. I think RJ mentioned it was made in response to a prophecy, though I can't find the quote; if this is the case, perhaps even they did not know. But I think even if we did know, it might not help.

The reference is implied in one scene when Rand was going through the Crystal Columns in Rhuidean -- which also reveals that the same AS were responsible for both the EotW and the Stone of Tear.

Both were built according to a Foretelling (or multiple Foretellings) by Diendre, one of the AS who set the Dai'shain Aiel on their trek to save the treasures of Paraan Disen.



Rand is Jonai again. He is sixty-three, in his prime. He enters the Hall of the Servants and goes to a room where Aes Sedai are arguing. Someshta, a Nym, is there also. There is a crystal sword and the Dragon Banner on a table. Oselle, Deindre and Solinda have a plan based on Deindre's Foretelling. They are waiting for Kodam and other young male channelers who are not yet strongly affected by the taint. They will have a task for Someshta. They must hurry because Haindar and Jaric Mondoran are headed toward Paaran Disen. Jaric Mondoran already destroyed the city of Tzora. Solinda tells Jonai he must complete his task, to lead the Aiel as the take items of the One Power to find a place of safety. Jonai is embarrassed that his father, Coumin, gave up the Way of the Leaf. He goes to the wagons where thousands of his people are ready to leave. There are no longer jo-cars, jumpers, hoverflies or sho-wings for transportation. His wife, Alnora, has their children Willim, Adan and little Esole in their wagon. They begin their search for a place of safety.

greatwolf
12-07-2010, 04:27 AM
I think one benefit of channeling the Eye was that it probably delayed the onset of madness for Rand. That might not be strictly so, but I'd like to think it helped.

Landro
12-07-2010, 12:14 PM
I believe the purpose of the Eye of the World was to set Rand on his path as the Dragon Reborn (admit he's a channeler) and to make him reach his full potential in the OP faster. The presence of the Horn, Banner and Seal make it obvious that it was meant to be used before TG.

I think you're right that Ishi misinterpreted the purpose of the Eye.

Marie Curie 7
12-10-2010, 01:31 AM
How about: the saidin was to be used in reresealing the DO, at which point the Horn would be used to help killing all the Darksiders still left. And the Dragon Banner... er... was needed for the Horn to be used! Since Artur Hawkwing seems reluctant to ride without it.

And how would that have allowed the fulfillment of the 'Falme' prophecy?

TITLE: Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 22 - Watchers

Steam curled over the cups while Moiraine chose her questions carefully. To find the answers, and not reveal too much. "The Horn of Valere is not mentioned in the Prophecies, but is it linked to the Dragon anywhere?"

"No. Except for the fact that the Horn must be found before Tarmon Gai'don and that the Dragon Reborn is supposed to fight the Last Battle, there is no link between them at all." The white-haired woman sipped her tea and waited.

"Does anything link the Dragon with Toman Head?"

Vandene hesitated. "Yes, and no. This is a bone between Adeleas and me." Her voice took on a lecturing tone, and for a time she did sound like a Brown. "There is a verse in the original that translates literally as 'Five ride forth, and four return. Above the watchers shall he proclaim himself, bannered cross the sky in fire ...' Well, it goes on. The point is, the word ma'vron. I say it should be translated not simply as 'watchers,' which is a'vron. Ma'vron has more importance to it. I say it means the Watchers Over the Waves, though they call themselves Do Miere A'vron, of course, not Ma'vron. Adeleas tells me I am quibbling. But I believe it means the Dragon Reborn will appear somewhere above Toman Head, in Arad Doman, or Saldaea. Adeleas may think I'm foolish, but I listen to every scrap I hear coming from Saldaea these days. Mazrim Taim can channel, so I hear, and our sisters haven't managed to corner him yet. If the Dragon is Reborn, and the Horn of Valere found, then the Last Battle is coming soon. We may never finish our history." She gave a shiver, then abruptly laughed. "Odd thing to worry about. I suppose I am becoming more a Brown. Horrible thing to contemplate. Ask your next question."

If the Horn hadn't been found, then Fain wouldn't have stolen it. And Rand wouldn't have followed Fain to Toman Head, etc. etc. ...

I guess the problem is we don't even know what the makers of the Eye intended it to be used for. I think RJ mentioned it was made in response to a prophecy, though I can't find the quote; if this is the case, perhaps even they did not know. But I think even if we did know, it might not help.

I already posted (I already [URL="http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=133781&postcount=5) the RJ quote. It was not about the Eye specifically, but rather about the Horn and the banner. Shall I post it again?

TOR Questions of the Week, December 2003 to April 2004

Week 1 Question: Was the Horn of Valere known and used in the Age of Legends? Or did it only appear in the Third Age?

Robert Jordan Answers: The Horn of Valere was known in the Age of Legends, though it was an artifact of an earlier age, but it was never used in the Age of Legends. In part, this was because there wasn't any need in an Age that knew universal peace, but also it was because what it could do was considered a sort of myth by most people in that Age. No one who is serious spends time trying to test out whether a myth might be real. (Seen anybody sacrificing a white bull to Jupiter lately?) And once the Dark One touched the world, before the War of the Shadow actually began, the Horn was among the items lost, and thought destroyed, in the first rush of mob violence, terrorism etc. So it wasn't available for use then even had someone wanted to try. It was later recovered and sealed up with the Dragon Banner because along with the Foretellings that made up the Prophecies of the Dragon was one saying that it must be.


How exactly did the pool of saidin protect anything?

Because the objects (Horn, banner, seal) were hidden under the pool of saidin, and nobody could reach them until the pool of saidin was used up:

TITLE: Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 52 – Neither Beginning Nor End

"Lan took them into the cavern," Nynaeve said. "The Eye is gone, but there's something in the middle of the pool, a crystal column, and steps to reach it. Mat and Perrin wanted to look for you first – Loial did, too – but Moiraine said ..." She glanced at the Aes Sedai, troubled. Moiraine returned her look calmly. "She said we mustn't disturb you while you were ..."

subwoofer
12-10-2010, 08:32 PM
This whole thing has started me wondering if ANY power, True or One, will be used in the reresealing.

Well, I dunno if duct tape or krazy glue have been invented yet...;)

Jokeslayer
12-11-2010, 03:52 AM
Because the objects (Horn, banner, seal) were hidden under the pool of saidin, and nobody could reach them until the pool of saidin was used up:

I knew this, I just don't see how it qualifies as protection against the people it really needs protecting from: the Forsaken. I'll grant you Joe Random probably can't get to the items through the saidin (IIRC there's no evidence on what would happen if someone touched raw saidin) but how is that any kind of defence against the Forsaken?

GonzoTheGreat
12-11-2010, 05:14 AM
I knew this, I just don't see how it qualifies as protection against the people it really needs protecting from: the Forsaken. I'll grant you Joe Random probably can't get to the items through the saidin (IIRC there's no evidence on what would happen if someone touched raw saidin) but how is that any kind of defence against the Forsaken?Which Forsaken could have reached it before Rand did, pray tell me?

morat'corlm
12-11-2010, 09:35 AM
Ishamael, on one of his furloughs from the Bore, perhaps? He did apparently spend some time collecting *angreal, and would probably have been able to ascertain how to reach the Green Man's place.

Jokeslayer
12-11-2010, 09:44 AM
Which Forsaken could have reached it before Rand did, pray tell me?

Either you're alluding to something I've forgotten (very possible) or I have no clue what you're getting at. Would you care to elaborate?

GonzoTheGreat
12-11-2010, 09:52 AM
I was referring to the fact that more or less until the time that Rand reached the EotW, all Forsaken were still locked up.
With, as morat'corlm points out, the exception of Ishamael.

But for Ishamael there is of course another problem: reaching the Eye would have taken reaching the Green Man, and he couldn't do that, as far as we know.

So I do not think that any Forsaken could have reached the Eye before Rand and his friends got there.

Jokeslayer
12-11-2010, 10:17 AM
I was referring to the fact that more or less until the time that Rand reached the EotW, all Forsaken were still locked up.
With, as morat'corlm points out, the exception of Ishamael.


Which has nothing to do with the pool of saidin. It's coincidence that Rand and the others got there ahead of the Forsaken.

But for Ishamael there is of course another problem: reaching the Eye would have taken reaching the Green Man, and he couldn't do that, as far as we know.

Do we know that he couldn't? Or perhaps, what do we know of that was preventing him from doing that? The fact that he didn't go there doesn't prove it. Aginor and Balthamel managed just fine.

So I do not think that any Forsaken could have reached the Eye before Rand and his friends got there.

Best you can really say is that they didn't.

Though I do think somewhere in this that I've missed the obvious. By its existence the pool protects the contents from non-male non-channelers. I just don't see how it's protecting anything from the actually dangerous bad guys.

Tarion
12-11-2010, 10:23 AM
Do we know that he couldn't? Or perhaps, what do we know of that was preventing him from doing that? The fact that he didn't go there doesn't prove it. Aginor and Balthamel managed just fine.They followed Mat though, with his Shadar Logoth taint. Without the Lightsiders finding it, the Forsaken couldn't.

morat'corlm
12-11-2010, 10:33 AM
Tracking Mat by itself doesn't seem to me like it would enable them to cross the barrier between the Blight and the Green Man's place. I mean, I know they said it did, but if it's just a matter of locating the Eye, I don't see why Ishamael could not have done so. Particularly when the requirement of 'need' seems so similar to the way Tel'aran'rhiod–of which he is a master–functions.

Jokeslayer
12-11-2010, 10:40 AM
They followed Mat though, with his Shadar Logoth taint. Without the Lightsiders finding it, the Forsaken couldn't.

And what does this have to do with the pool of saidin?

GonzoTheGreat
12-11-2010, 10:57 AM
The pool of saidin was the Eye, which the Green Man was guarding.

And its location changed, so locating it was not at all easy. It had been designed specifically not to be found unless there was a good reason for it, and the ones that decided what was a "good enough reason" were firmly on the side of the Light.

Jokeslayer
12-11-2010, 11:03 AM
The pool of saidin was the Eye, which the Green Man was guarding.

And its location changed, so locating it was not at all easy. It had been designed specifically not to be found unless there was a good reason for it, and the ones that decided what was a "good enough reason" were firmly on the side of the Light.

Then how does the pool protect anything? It doesn't. Clearly the Forsaken can get in and once the male ones are in, what next? If you're arguing that the Green Man's place was able to keep Darkfriend's out (probably a good assumption) then based on what we know the Eye was more or less worthless as a protective device (and certainly wouldn't justify 100 deaths in its creation).

Tarion
12-11-2010, 08:52 PM
Then how does the pool protect anything? It doesn't. Clearly the Forsaken can get in and once the male ones are in, what next? If you're arguing that the Green Man's place was able to keep Darkfriend's out (probably a good assumption) then based on what we know the Eye was more or less worthless as a protective device (and certainly wouldn't justify 100 deaths in its creation).It protects it from basically everyone who's not Rand.

IF the only people who can access the pool are male Channelers AND the Forsaken can't get to it, you've got a very limited pool of people who are a threat.

You're left with a male channeler strong enough to handle the Eye, who manages to survive long enough to get some control over his channeling, without being involved with the Dark One. He also needs to need enough to find the Green Man. How does that not protect it?

I also think you're mistaken in thinking that the Horn and the Banner only need protecting from the Dark One. False Dragons, warlords, wannabe Kings, Aes Sedai... pretty much anyone would want to get their hands on the Horn of Valere. Putting such harsh restrictions (Again: Uber-strong Male Channeler, not tied to the Dark One, need for Green Man) on accessing the Horn kept it hidden and safe throughout the Age.

subwoofer
12-12-2010, 04:07 PM
I also think you're mistaken in thinking that the Horn and the Banner only need protecting from the Dark One. False Dragons, warlords, wannabe Kings, Aes Sedai... pretty much anyone would want to get their hands on the Horn of Valere.

You forgot about the random peasants that would stumble across it, have no idea what it was, and try to sell it on E-Bay.

Jokeslayer
12-12-2010, 05:07 PM
IF the only people who can access the pool are male Channelers AND the Forsaken can't get to it, you've got a very limited pool of people who are a threat.

As far as I remember, there's no evidence to support either of these assertions, and some evidence from Aginor and Balthamel to dispute the second.

Anyone who thinks the eye was designed as a protective device, answer me this: why is it better than the weaving around Callandor? That lasted just as long and thwarted at least one of the Forsaken. if they were putting all that effort into protecting the Horn and so on, why not just do that? I think whatever the Eye was for, the saidin itself was the important thing because that was the unique thing.

GonzoTheGreat
12-13-2010, 04:08 AM
How durable is the Dragonbanner? If that would have faded over time, then storing it in a sort of "special mothball" would be worthwhile.

Weird Harold
12-13-2010, 07:02 AM
As far as I remember, there's no evidence to support either of these assertions, and some evidence from Aginor and Balthamel to dispute the second.

Anyone who thinks the eye was designed as a protective device, answer me this: why is it better than the weaving around Callandor? That lasted just as long and thwarted at least one of the Forsaken. if they were putting all that effort into protecting the Horn and so on, why not just do that? I think whatever the Eye was for, the saidin itself was the important thing because that was the unique thing.
A pool of pure Saidin is more unique than an oasis in th eBlight that is never int he same place twice and can't be found if it doesn't want to be found -- that just happens to have a Saidin Well filled with pure Saidin, too?

The "Eye of The World" was more than the well of pure Saidin, and it was a different kind of protection for a different kind of treasure than Callandor, so comparisons of "more effective" are meaningless.

Both protected their treasures until Rand unlocked them. Then, having served their purpose, the protections dissipated.

Jokeslayer
12-13-2010, 11:15 AM
A pool of pure Saidin is more unique than an oasis in th eBlight that is never int he same place twice and can't be found if it doesn't want to be found -- that just happens to have a Saidin Well filled with pure Saidin, too?

I was comparing the Eye (meaning the pool of saidin; I've been using "the Green Man's place" or "the Green Man's space" to refer to the area as a whole) with the protection around Callandor. I thought that was clear.

The "Eye of The World" was more than the well of pure Saidin, and it was a different kind of protection for a different kind of treasure than Callandor, so comparisons of "more effective" are meaningless.

Both protected their treasures until Rand unlocked them. Then, having served their purpose, the protections dissipated.

Yes it was a different kind of protection, but my question is: why was a different kind of protection used? If protection was the sole intent behind the creation of the pool of saidin, what did it do that the protection around Callandor did not? (Other than kill a whole bunch of people in its creation)

As far as I know, the answer is nothing. The pool was worse than the protection around Callandor, since Bel'al had to wait for Rand to pull Callandor out but Aginor was able to drain some of the Eye (and there's no reason to think he couldn't have drained the whole thing with enough time), so why did those AoL Aes Sedai sacrifice themselves?

If you're not arguing that the pool was created solely to protect the items, then we're on the same side (though we may disagree about how effective the Eye would have been)

You'll have to clarify what makes the items in the Eye different from Callandor before we can discuss if "more effective" is appropriate or not; I don't want to put words in your mouth.

Weird Harold
12-13-2010, 04:44 PM
What makes the Eye of The World -- the whole package -- different is that it is mobile and contained an item that is arguably mobile.

Callandor was fixed in place and had to wait for Rand to go to Tear and draw the sword from the Stone.

The Eye Of The World parallels the Quest For the Holy Grail -- and a couple of other 'Quest' myths that feature items or places that can only be found by "the pure of heart" and only when they are needed.

The Eye of The World and Rand WERE going to cross paths at the appointed time if the Eye had to go to Emonds Field and kick down Rand's door. :D Callandor was just going to sit around and pout until Rand got there.

Tarion
12-14-2010, 12:52 PM
As far as I remember, there's no evidence to support either of these assertions, and some evidence from Aginor and Balthamel to dispute the second.I'm starting to think you're not reading my posts.

Firstly, Moiraine said that it took a man of extreme strength to channel the Eye. Without doing that, no-one could get to the items at the bottom. First assertion, defended.

Secondly, the Forsaken were only able to get to the Green Man's location by following Mat. Without him, they wouldn't be able to find the place. Second assertion, defended.
Anyone who thinks the eye was designed as a protective device, answer me this: why is it better than the weaving around Callandor? That lasted just as long and thwarted at least one of the Forsaken. if they were putting all that effort into protecting the Horn and so on, why not just do that? I think whatever the Eye was for, the saidin itself was the important thing because that was the unique thing.I don't necessarily believe the Eye was designed purely to defend those items. I think it was used for its intended purpose - Giving Rand the edge in that fight. Without the Eye to bolster his power, it would have been game over in book 1. The actions of the Borderlanders have shown us how accurate prophecies can be.

Everything had to go down the way it did. Without the Horn and the Banner being where they were, the prophecies about Falme couldn't happen. How could the Banner and the Horn be there and protected? The Eye.

morat'corlm
12-14-2010, 03:07 PM
Secondly, the Forsaken were only able to get to the Green Man's location by following Mat. Without him, they wouldn't be able to find the place. Second assertion, defended.Aginor and Balthamel proved that the Forsaken could, in fact, "get to it." That they did not find it until Mat led them there does not change the fact that the Green Man's place was eminently penetrable.

Jokeslayer
12-14-2010, 04:34 PM
I'm starting to think you're not reading my posts.

Firstly, Moiraine said that it took a man of extreme strength to channel the Eye. Without doing that, no-one could get to the items at the bottom. First assertion, defended.

I admit my objection to this part may have been somewhat out of context (plus a possible terminology issue that I've also noticed in the line of conversation I've been having ITT with WH). I'm not sure I would trust Moiraine on this one, though, since Rand can't have been that strong at the time (can he? I should really check how men grow in OP strength before I post this but no, someone can just correct me if I'm wrong. but as Rand had only channeled a handful of times before that I think it would unreasonable to call him extremely strong at that point)


Secondly, the Forsaken were only able to get to the Green Man's location by following Mat. Without him, they wouldn't be able to find the place. Second assertion, defended.

I believe this will do for the relevant quote.

"I have found you at last. "
Rand jerked as if a rope had tightened around his neck. The words, the voice... for a moment he believed it was Ba'alzamon. But the two men who walked out of the trees, faces hidden by their cowls, did not wear cloaks the color of dried blood. One cloak was a dark gray, the other almost as dark a green, and they seemed musty even in the open air. And the men were not Fades; the breeze stirred their cloaks.
"Who are you?" Lan's stance was cautious, his hand on his sword hilt. "How did you come here? If you are seeking the Green Man —"
"He guided us." The hand that pointed to Mat was old and shriveled to scarcely human, lacking a fingernail and with knuckles gnarled like knots in a piece of rope. Mat took a step back, eyes widening. "An old thing, an old friend, an old enemy. But he is not the one we seek," the green-cloaked man finished. The other man stood as if he would never speak.


Show me where in that quote (or use a different one if you prefer, but I think that quote is the only relevant part) it states that they could not have found the Green Man's place without followng Mat. (And please, let's be clear on the difference between can't and didn't). I don't think you'll be able to - there's no proof that they couldn't have found it (it's not even clear that's what they were looking for - I think you could read the scene either as they were looking for the Eye or as they were looking for Rand and had the two not concided I don't think it's clear which would have taken precedence).

I don't necessarily believe the Eye was designed purely to defend those items. I think it was used for its intended purpose - Giving Rand the edge in that fight. Without the Eye to bolster his power, it would have been game over in book 1. The actions of the Borderlanders have shown us how accurate prophecies can be.

Everything had to go down the way it did. Without the Horn and the Banner being where they were, the prophecies about Falme couldn't happen. How could the Banner and the Horn be there and protected? The Eye.

This seems to me to be a more reasonable position to take.

Jokeslayer
12-14-2010, 04:38 PM
What makes the Eye of The World -- the whole package -- different is that it is mobile and contained an item that is arguably mobile.

Callandor was fixed in place and had to wait for Rand to go to Tear and draw the sword from the Stone.

The Eye Of The World parallels the Quest For the Holy Grail -- and a couple of other 'Quest' myths that feature items or places that can only be found by "the pure of heart" and only when they are needed.

The Eye of The World and Rand WERE going to cross paths at the appointed time if the Eye had to go to Emonds Field and kick down Rand's door. :D Callandor was just going to sit around and pout until Rand got there.

Disagree. Rand was going to draw Callandor out at the right time if the Pattern had to wrap its hands around his short and curlies and drag him there.

If they could put the pool of saidin into the Green Man's place, why couldn't they just put the Callandor-weave around the box and then put that in the Green Man's place, and not kill a bunch of people in the process?

Weird Harold
12-14-2010, 06:11 PM
If they could put the pool of saidin into the Green Man's place, why couldn't they just put the Callandor-weave around the box and then put that in the Green Man's place, and not kill a bunch of people in the process?

A couple of reasons to use a pool of pure Saidin instead of wardings.

First, the pool of Saidin seems to have acted like a preservative -- pickling brine or formaldehyde -- for the cloth of the Dragon Banner. The wards on Callandor didn't have any sort of preservative function because 'Crystal' such as *angrea; are made of doesn't deteriorate. Even synthetic fabrics deterioriate with age unless protected.

Second, the wardings around Callandor weren't mobile and were probably not suitable to warding something that was mobile. There would be no reason to use weaves that were suited to mobility and every reason to use wards anchored into the structure of the Stone.

Third -- and this is a new thought -- the wardings on Callandor were powered by tainted Saidin; they contained just a tine fraction of the DO's Essence and therefore could be monitored and located by the DO and/or his minions. The entire Eye of The World Oasis might well have been powered by the well of pure Saidin and thus outside of the DO's ability to track it by the Taint on Saidin.

I'd have to re-read the aftermath of the battle at the Eye to determine if Someshta's death was what caused the collapse or if it only contributed to the effects of a total power failure.

FelixPax
12-14-2010, 11:03 PM
The Eye enabled Rand al'Thor to learn what Saidin felt like without the Dark One's Taint. A Taint, Nynaeve later called a type of Compulsion in TofM, when she was develing Naeff. The Eye, enabled Rand a good compare and contrast how Saidin is different, with and without the Taint. Thus, setting up in Rand's thoughts, what Cleansing of the Taint would mean.

Separately, Rand after using the Eye, has to try to recall what Nynaeve, Moiraine, and Egwene's current names are... at this point he possesses the memories of L.T.T and his prior lives... yet it foreshadows a tension within Rand, over Memory and Identity.

The Eye's guardian crucially calls Rand al'Thor "a Child of the Dragon"... not the "Dragon Reborn". The Green Man implies SOMEONE else is the Dragon, who is NOT Rand al'Thor.

Rand stared at Perrin. For his part, Perrin turned his horse so it was between him and the Green Man, and bent to check the girth. Rand was sure he just wanted to avoid the Green Man’s searching gaze. Suddenly the Green Man spoke to Rand.

“Strange clothes you wear, Child of the Dragon. Has the Wheel turned so far? Do the People of the Dragon return to the First Covenant? But you wear a sword. That is neither now nor then.”


The Eye of the World, Chapter 49 "The Dark One Stirs" -Rand point of view; next to Mat Cauthon, Perrin, Moiraine, Nynaeve, Lan, Egwene al'Vere

Rand's ancient Jonai was also called by the Green Man/Someshta "a Child of the Dragon" during an early period of the Breaking Era.


“Singing,” Someshta said. “Was there singing? So much is gone. The Aes Sedai say some will return. You are a Child of the Dragon, are you not?”

Jonai winced. That name had caused trouble, no less for not being true. But how many citizens now believed the Da’shain Aiel had once served the Dragon and no other Aes Sedai?

The Shadow Rising, Chapter 26 "The Dediciated" -- Rand point of view THOUGH Jonai's eyes; with the Someshta/Green Man[/quote]


What else did the Eye of the World possess?
The Horn of Valere.
A separate prophecy called the "Prophecy of the Horn" was once mentioned by Lord Agelmar and known of by Moiraine Sedai.

Moiraine nodded. Agelmar was familiar with the Prophecy of the Horn; most who fought the Dark One were. “ ‘Let whosoever sounds me think not of glory, but only of salvation.’ ”

“Salvation.” The Amyrlin laughed bitterly.

The Great Hunt, Chapter 5 "The Shadow in Shienar" -- Moiraine point of view; next to Lord Agelmar, Siuan

Rand al'Thor has sought "Glory", or 'Blood' many times previously throughout the series. However, Matrim Cauthon has sought to avoid "Glory" repeatedly throughout the series, even to the point of not wanting to become a Noble. Yet, the salvation or protection of his people, ultimately pushed him unwilling into become a Noble of the Blood, a Prince of Ravens.

Who remains, who flies the Banner of the Dragon still?
Mat Cauthon's Band of Red Hand.

GonzoTheGreat
12-15-2010, 05:52 AM
If they could put the pool of saidin into the Green Man's place, why couldn't they just put the Callandor-weave around the box and then put that in the Green Man's place, and not kill a bunch of people in the process?The Callandor weave could be made by a man channeling through Callandor. If they'd done that at the EOTW, then they wouldn't have had Callandor available to build the Stone of Tear around.
Furthermore, the Callandor weave (and Callandor itself) were approachable in TAR. That made it easy for the Shadow (or whoever else was interested) to find it.
Finally, it is quite possible that at the end of TEOTW Rand himself could not have touched Callandor, yet, if he had gotten into the Heart of the Stone. If that is the case, then protecting the Eye with the same weave would have made it unusable when it was needed.