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Yellowbeard
12-03-2010, 10:09 PM
Reread the bit last night, but if she had succeeded, she'd not have gotten in trouble for killing the other chosen.

Don't have the book in front of me...but Moridin says something to the effect "no more indulging in your hobby until perrin is dead". he's being tongue in cheek about her having a habit of off'ing other chosen. and one could interpret that he would allow her to kill other chosen again because of the "until (or after) perrin is dead" part.

jana
12-03-2010, 10:23 PM
Provide a quote if you're trying to make a point.


Otherwise, no. I don't recall him saying anything resembling "Don't do that again until you kill Perrin." All of the Chosen are completely under his thumb except Demandred and Demandred meets him when he's ordered. So he definitely doesn't need or want Graendal to kill any of them.

Ieyasu
12-04-2010, 06:59 AM
Provide a quote if you're trying to make a point.


Otherwise, no. I don't recall him saying anything resembling "Don't do that again until you kill Perrin." All of the Chosen are completely under his thumb except Demandred and Demandred meets him when he's ordered. So he definitely doesn't need or want Graendal to kill any of them.

To refresh your memory, see:


Moridin stepped forward, seizing her eyes with his own. "Graendal," he said softly, dangersously. "I know the key for this one. It will not be used against me, or the others of the Chosen. The Great Lord will know if you do. I do not wish your apparent habit to be indulged further, not until Aybara is dead."

finn
12-04-2010, 11:46 AM
I took it to mean that she was on probation until she had succeeded with Perrin. Because of her involvement with Arangar's death and her ouster by Rand. I don't think it was a license to kill the other Forsaken although the Dark One doesn't care too much. He encourages selfishness and scheming for power among his Chosen but not at the expense of his assigned tasks.

Ieyasu
12-05-2010, 04:40 AM
I took it to mean that she was on probation until she had succeeded with Perrin. Because of her involvement with Arangar's death and her ouster by Rand. I don't think it was a license to kill the other Forsaken although the Dark One doesn't care too much. He encourages selfishness and scheming for power among his Chosen but not at the expense of his assigned tasks.

I take it for what it says rather than try to add things it does not say.

finn
12-05-2010, 07:46 AM
I take it for what it says rather than try to add things it does not say.

I use whatever fits but nothing that hasn't come from canon.

Ieyasu
12-05-2010, 10:12 AM
I use whatever fits but nothing that hasn't come from canon.

Your 'whatever fits' does not match the quoted canon.

Enigma
12-05-2010, 10:38 AM
It has been said several places in the books and I believe RJ said in several interviews that the Chosen were encouraged to compete with each other as the DO is a great believer in survival of the fittest.

On the other hand its days away from the last Battle and its hightly likely that the rules may have changed a bit. Right now the number of forsaken have been cut down and the DO probably needs the few he has left for certain jobs/tasks. Hence killing a fellow forsaken is probably okay as long as the death does not interfear with critical missions/plans.

My reading of Moridin's quote was that the DO/SH/Moridin were all pissed at Graendal for looking a forwsaken to Rand and she was probably going to have to serve 'detention' with SH a bit like Mesaana but Graendal managed to put enough positive spin on her actions that the DO decided to give her another chance. Her chance was to be Perrin and if she suceeded she was going to get major credit and move up the ranking of DO's favourite forsaken list. She was on probation to an extend though and was to devote herself fully to the Perrin problem and not go off interfearing in other plans. She was most certainly not to spend the time and effort that would be required to enginer the downfall of another forsaken until she got the job done as the DO wanted 100% effort from her and did not want her destracted.

GonzoTheGreat
12-05-2010, 11:17 AM
If Perrin had been killed, then the other Forsaken would have been less necessary to the Shadow anyway. So having her return to her hobby after she'd wacked Perrin would not have compromised the long term goals.

Squocka
12-05-2010, 06:51 PM
Yes the DO encouraged selfishness,
Yes if she suceeded she would have got of scot free and could do what she wants.
She does not want to kill off other forsaken "As Such".

Remember the forsaken she "Killed" were all by "fluke" or DO's luck really, Asmo right place right time, Messana nothing to do with it really, Arangar yes but not through any planning just sheer quick thinking and luck, I also count Rahvin in here as she was supposed to help him and did squat so his death should be on her hands as much as Messana's is.

So she was not actively seeking to kill other forsaken so returning to her ways does not mean "Hey babe head of and kill me some more"

finn
12-06-2010, 12:20 AM
Your 'whatever fits' does not match the quoted canon.
You should read Verin's observations on the Forsaken, as well as various POVs from them.

Ieyasu
12-06-2010, 12:35 AM
You should read Verin's observations on the Forsaken, as well as various POVs from them.

I think I will stick with Moridin's quote saying he does not want her to kill any more Forsaken until after Perrin dies.

finn
12-06-2010, 01:55 AM
I think I will stick with Moridin's quote saying he does not want her to kill any more Forsaken until after Perrin dies.
Which squares with what Verin said about the Forsaken being selfish and the Dark One encouraging that trait. Moridin also told her that she had foolishly lost the life of one of the Chosen, that she had cost them a useful tool, which would have earned her a punishment hence the restriction.

Yellowbeard
12-06-2010, 08:54 AM
Provide a quote if you're trying to make a point.


Otherwise, no. I don't recall him saying anything resembling "Don't do that again until you kill Perrin." All of the Chosen are completely under his thumb except Demandred and Demandred meets him when he's ordered. So he definitely doesn't need or want Graendal to kill any of them.

dunno what's up w/ your attitude but it's definitely unnecessarily rude. especially when you turned out to be wrong. go eat some chocolate or take a chill pill or something.

and my thanks to ieyasu for the quote. as i said in the OP, didn't have the book w/ me, or i'd have thrown the quote in.