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SixPips
12-07-2010, 12:24 PM
The scene with Rand and Mierin (Lanfear/Cyndane) in the end of ToM she uses a very peculiar phrase I think is meant to reveal something to us. she says "He is coming! The Shadow in every man's mind!..." I find it interesting.

Many people assume that it must be either Ishamael(Moridin) or The Dark One she is referring to when she says He is coming. I disagree.

The reason for it not to be Ishy is because her reference to EVERY man's mind. In the end, as powerful as he is, Ishy isn't capable of omnipresence. Therefore he cannot be in every man's mind, and while this may seem as conjecture I believe it ties in to my point in a moment.

The reason for it not to be The Dark One is a little more circuitous to comprehend. The Dark One was outside the pattern for millenia before Mierin released Him. During that time, he could not interact with men and men lived in harmony. The Dark One was not in their minds. I believe the lack in one mind ever is a lack in all.

There is a Darkness that is in all men however, and it has manifest itself before...in Aridhol. I feel that somehow, someway, in some shape form or fashion, Mordeth has a role to play in the dynamic between Rand and Mierin. I believe he is the Shadow in every man's mind because he was born of the natural evil of man. I feel that the scene with Mierin is setting us up for a surprise with Mordeth we have not considered before. The question is: How?:rolleyes:

Cortar
12-07-2010, 03:07 PM
The reason for it not to be The Dark One is a little more circuitous to comprehend. The Dark One was outside the pattern for millenia before Mierin released Him. During that time, he could not interact with men and men lived in harmony. The Dark One was not in their minds. I believe the lack in one mind ever is a lack in all.

To be fair, in the WoT there are no beginnings nor endings, I think it would be folly to assume this is the first time the DO has been let free, especially when you listen to Ishamel and the DO talk about how many times this has all happened before?

Flinn Sedai
12-07-2010, 03:37 PM
The scene with Rand and Mierin (Lanfear/Cyndane) in the end of ToM she uses a very peculiar phrase I think is meant to reveal something to us. she says "He is coming! The Shadow in every man's mind!..." I find it interesting.

Many people assume that it must be either Ishamael(Moridin) or The Dark One she is referring to when she says He is coming. I disagree.

The reason for it not to be Ishy is because her reference to EVERY man's mind. In the end, as powerful as he is, Ishy isn't capable of omnipresence. Therefore he cannot be in every man's mind, and while this may seem as conjecture I believe it ties in to my point in a moment.

The reason for it not to be The Dark One is a little more circuitous to comprehend. The Dark One was outside the pattern for millenia before Mierin released Him. During that time, he could not interact with men and men lived in harmony. The Dark One was not in their minds. I believe the lack in one mind ever is a lack in all.

There is a Darkness that is in all men however, and it has manifest itself before...in Aridhol. I feel that somehow, someway, in some shape form or fashion, Mordeth has a role to play in the dynamic between Rand and Mierin. I believe he is the Shadow in every man's mind because he was born of the natural evil of man. I feel that the scene with Mierin is setting us up for a surprise with Mordeth we have not considered before. The question is: How?:rolleyes:

Interesting. Are you proposing that Mierin coming to Rand in his dream is the Shadow's way of actually asking for help dealing with Fain?

That would definitely be an interesting turn of events.

Juan
12-07-2010, 06:14 PM
good call about the shadow in every man's mind. I remember that people still did bad things even before the drilling of the Bore (Semirhage for example), and some worse than others. But they still have to fight the "evil in themselves" to paraphrase the White Book of Super Special Chocolatey Fudge Awesomeness. That's why I made the connection. I'm not sure though, that it means that sort of evil has a role to play in the whole deal with Lanfar and Rand.. Could be more of a general warning. After all, Rand had his evil season (thankfully that's over). So maybe she was warning against that evil coming again to maybe not Rand, but others.

SixPips
12-08-2010, 08:59 AM
Interesting. Are you proposing that Mierin coming to Rand in his dream is the Shadow's way of actually asking for help dealing with Fain?

That would definitely be an interesting turn of events.

could we be seeing a matrix ending? Will Neo-Rand (ironically meaning literally "new rand") be forced into a shaky alliance with the shadow? Will the Dark One agree to leave everyone alone until they forget him so that Fain doesn't kick his face? Does Fain have that kind of power? Are you reading this and imagining the ending flashforward scenes from your favorite TV show, with the lines being read off by a deep voice?:cool:

GonzoTheGreat
12-08-2010, 09:08 AM
Maybe Rand is merely being set up to believe that's the scenario the DO is aiming at.

sheikh chilli
12-08-2010, 09:15 AM
The possibility of the shadow asking for rand's help against padan fain is so ridiculous. Since when did a God needed help from a peddler? Even a peddler as terrifying as fain

SixPips
12-08-2010, 09:59 AM
The possibility of the shadow asking for rand's help against padan fain is so ridiculous. Since when did a God needed help from a peddler? Even a peddler as terrifying as fain


underestimate him if you want to. Is rand a farmer anymore? Is perrin? mat? They have all grown, some greater than others. Fain is not just a peddler, he is the carnal manifestation of over a thousand years of mankind's hatred, loathing, and evil, which has been proven before to be antithetical and destructive when mixed with the essence of the Dark One. is Fain just a peddler? is Gelatto vegan? (if you get that movie reference, you are win!)

Flinn Sedai
12-08-2010, 07:06 PM
Well, the thing is that Rand-LTT knows that there is no negotiation with the Shadow. That you don't trust the Shadow, and don't parley. That's why I think it would be interesting if the DO actually needed Rand's help.

Granted, I wouldn't like it that much. I just think it'd be interesting to see how it would work out.


The possibility of the shadow asking for rand's help against padan fain is so ridiculous. Since when did a God needed help from a peddler? Even a peddler as terrifying as fain

Ermm.... since he asked the peddler for help with a farmer?

FelixPax
12-08-2010, 08:17 PM
The scene with Rand and Mierin (Lanfear/Cyndane) in the end of ToM she uses a very peculiar phrase I think is meant to reveal something to us. she says "He is coming! The Shadow in every man's mind!..." I find it interesting.

Many people assume that it must be either Ishamael(Moridin) or The Dark One she is referring to when she says He is coming. I disagree.

How did Lanfear refer to the 'Dark One' to Rand al'Thor previously?

“Great Lord of the Dark? Can’t you say his true name, either? Surely you don’t fear to attract his attention, as decent people do. Or do you?”

“It would be blasphemy,” she said simply. “They are right to be afraid, Sammael and the rest. The Great Lord does want you. He wants to exalt you above all other men. He told me.”

The Shadow Rising, Chapter 9 "Decision" - Rand point of view, next to Lanfear/Selene/Mierin in the city of Tear

He, is the "Dark One".


Padan Fain is not a Man, anymore. Fain lacks a "soul" as of Towers of Midnight book. Men, who did evil at least had soul... however horrible their deeds were. The man formerly known as Padan Fain Mordeth, is more akin to a "soulless" than a Human or a Trolloc. Even Trollocs have 'souls' and 'dreams', according to separately Lanfear & Loial.

What did Moiraine once claim about the state of Padan Fain's 'soul'?

The water Moiraine poured into the basin steamed as if only just off the boil. She pushed up her sleeves and began vigorously washing her hands without regard for the heat of the water. “I said he was worse than vile, but I did not come close. I do not believe I have ever met someone so abject and debased, yet at the same time so foul. I feel soiled from touching him, and I do not mean for the filth on his skin. Soiled in here.” She touched her breast. “The degradation of his soul almost makes me doubt he has one. There is something worse to him than a Darkfriend.”

The Eye of the World, Chapter 47 "More Tales of the Wheel" -- Rand point of view; next to Moiraine, Lan, Lord Agelmar, Egwene, Nynaeve, Mat Cauthon, Perrin and Loial.

At least simple Darkfriends can have their bonds broken to the Dark One, and the darkness likely removed via Healing. Whereas the man formerly known as Padan Fain Mordeth as of TofM book has no ties to either the Creator nor the Dark One, I suspect, because he lacks a 'Soul'.


From a 'Character Parallels' perspective, it seems that Robert Jordan drew on sources found in Russian Mythology among others to aid the creation of Padan Fain Mordeth and an idea of an evil soulless spirit, who haunts the earth.

nameless
12-08-2010, 10:35 PM
Most characters in WoT seem to believe that the Dark One is the source of human evil. It's part of their catechism or something. Obviously they're wrong, since psycho sadists like Semirhage existed even when before the Bore. Based on Mieren's line about the Shadow in every man's mind, I'm inclined to believe they have it backwards, and that the Dark One is either created by or empowered by the collective malice of entire human race.

Res_Ipsa
12-08-2010, 11:57 PM
Its an interesting theory. I would be more inclined to lump it together with a Brandonism on how he uses a jackhammer to make an ice-sculpter of RJ. Don't get me wrong Brandon is a great writer but the WoT is not his and therefore is not so intimately familiar with its secrets and verbosity.

Blue Nine
12-09-2010, 10:42 AM
I`m going off the board for this selection. I think Mierin is talking about Shadar Haran directly, but the DO indirectly. This is based on the assumption that SH is actually the avatar (in some capacity or definition) of the DO. We know that SH has been used to punish other Mindtrapped Forsaken, i.e. Moghedien. So I would suggest that what Rand stumbled into was actually the prelude to SH coming to punch Mierin yet again on behalf of the DO for her failures. The Darkness in every man`s heart is actually a reference to entity represented by SH.

Flinn Sedai
12-09-2010, 07:51 PM
I`m going off the board for this selection. I think Mierin is talking about Shadar Haran directly, but the DO indirectly. This is based on the assumption that SH is actually the avatar (in some capacity or definition) of the DO. We know that SH has been used to punish other Mindtrapped Forsaken, i.e. Moghedien. So I would suggest that what Rand stumbled into was actually the prelude to SH coming to punch Mierin yet again on behalf of the DO for her failures. The Darkness in every man`s heart is actually a reference to entity represented by SH.

I'm of the opinion that Moridin is starting to become the Dark One's avatar, in much the same way as Rand is becoming the Creator's avatar.

They're both starting to exude the natural traits of their respective deities. By the end, Rand will probably be able to communicate with the Creator in the same way that Moridin communicates with the DO.

morat'corlm
12-10-2010, 03:04 AM
SH coming to punch Mierin yet again on behalf of the DO for her failures.One problem with that: Myrddraal cannot dream.

It's possible that Shai'tan has started setting up shop in Moridin's mind because of that limitation, if the Final Battle is to involve TAR and dreaming.

SixPips
12-10-2010, 11:39 AM
I'm of the opinion that Moridin is starting to become the Dark One's avatar, in much the same way as Rand is becoming the Creator's avatar.

They're both starting to exude the natural traits of their respective deities. By the end, Rand will probably be able to communicate with the Creator in the same way that Moridin communicates with the DO.

This is interesting. I wonder if the Creator is actually going to communicate with Rand...might be like this.

are you there?

SNORE

huh?

SNORE

Creator!

HUH!?

are you gonna help me with the last battle?

WHAT?

I said, are you gonna help me with the last battle?

OH, YEA, SORRY FELL ASLEEP FOR ABOUT THREE THOUSAND YEARS. IT HAPPENS. LET ME GUESS, THE DOG GOT OUT AND STARTED TEARING UP THE PATTERN AGAIN...

the what? the do...the DOG?

YEAH, HE WON'T STAY IN HIS PEN LONG ENOUGH FOR ME TO SLEEP...

Belazamon
12-10-2010, 02:58 PM
LET ME GUESS, THE DOG GOT OUT AND STARTED TEARING UP THE PATTERN AGAIN...

the what? the do...the DOG?

YEAH, HE WON'T STAY IN HIS PEN LONG ENOUGH FOR ME TO SLEEP...
Hah! Clearly calling him the DO is just a corruption of the original.

Agder
12-15-2010, 08:29 AM
I thought it had to do with the Killer Instinct of Man, it's the Shadow of Self, Dominance and with Men without a purpose it becomes self serving in a negative way because the Masculine always needs to and strives for freedom and does it in control if it can't accept it, Dominance exists to serve those who need it, children and the Feminime.
Our relationships is always that, a challenge and a celebration at the same time, She can't trust Him unless he stands alone in the Void, everyone does it though, keeps having a relationship with their mother. A Man is always the Shepherd of Men, protecting the People, standing alone so he can do what needs to be done without attachment to those he will protect (because then he gets unfocused and loses sight). Her relationships is to her closest people, her family and her social circle, she's 'weak' so she needs that protection to help raise her children.

CreationEdge
12-15-2010, 09:31 AM
Another point he pressed was that "no one's going to rescue you", there are not going to happen any miracles. The Creator shaped the world and set the rules, but does not interfere. Humankind messed things up, and has to fix it too, as well as finding the truth themselves. -Robert Jordan


Rand isn't the Avatar of the Creator. The Creator doesn't interfere. An avatar constitutes interference.

Rand's ta'veren lightwarp (apples blossoming, etc.) isn't a power caused by the Creator. It's caused by the rules of the Wheel of Time, the Weavings and Fabrics of the Ages, and the reincarnation of souls.

The Creator hasn't even so much as blessed Rand. Rand's abilities are within the purview of The Pattern.

Shaidar Haran isn't the DO's avatar, and it's unlikely Ishy is either, based on this quote:

WinespringBrother: Is Shaidar Haran an avatar to the world beyond the Bore?
Jordan: I am not certain you can really call him an avatar because I generally think of an avatar as having exactly the same powers as, and it is not, Shaidar Haran does not have nearly as much power as the Dark One. It's as though the Dark One is able to project a shadowy form of himself into this creature - it is the Dark One in shadowy form.

AbbeyRoad
12-16-2010, 08:44 AM
it is the Dark One in shadowy form
= avatar of the Dark One.

Jordan's operational definition of an avatar having the "exact same powers as" its deity seems a bit off in this case.

Personally, I've always thought of Shadar Haran as an avatar of the Dark One, since he is essentially a projection of the Dark One's will/essence.

CreationEdge
12-16-2010, 09:24 AM
You literally just tossed Robert Jordan's answer and explanation out the window.


SH is a shadowy form of the DO. Not the DO.
An Avatar is a Deity Incarnate.


SH might be a Champion of the Dark One, as Rand is the Champion of the Light. But SH is not the DO. SH can not make the seasons linger. He can not capture your forsaken soul at the time of your death. And, I'm quite certain he can die.

The Immortal One
12-17-2010, 06:12 PM
WinespringBrother: Is Shaidar Haran an avatar to the world beyond the Bore?
Jordan: I am not certain you can really call him an avatar because I generally think of an avatar as having exactly the same powers as, and it is not, Shaidar Haran does not have nearly as much power as the Dark One. It's as though the Dark One is able to project a shadowy form of himself into this creature - it is the Dark One in shadowy form.

= avatar of the Dark One.

Jordan's operational definition of an avatar having the "exact same powers as" its deity seems a bit off in this case.

Personally, I've always thought of Shadar Haran as an avatar of the Dark One, since he is essentially a projection of the Dark One's will/essence.

You literally just tossed Robert Jordan's answer and explanation out the window.


SH is a shadowy form of the DO. Not the DO.
An Avatar is a Deity Incarnate.


SH might be a Champion of the Dark One, as Rand is the Champion of the Light. But SH is not the DO. SH can not make the seasons linger. He can not capture your forsaken soul at the time of your death. And, I'm quite certain he can die.

From the RJ quote it seems to imply that Shaidar Haran is a silhouette of the Dark One's power. He shines his 'Darklight' through the bore, infuses it with his power and will.

It is only a shadow of the Dark One's true power.