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SixPips
12-08-2010, 09:55 AM
anyone have any insight? He was last seen in TAR by his beloved Birgitte, supposedly was spun back into the pattern before she was ripped out. Will Sanderson find him for us? Will we see him again with the horn? Will Birgitte find an ugly baby and raise it to marry?:eek:

Cairn
12-08-2010, 10:25 AM
I find myself still emotionally tied to it being Olver, although I realize the timing and Olver's age doesn't work.

Kind of silly actually, I would rather see some ridiculous breaking of WoT rules or some 'new' rules invented so it could be Olver rather than some two-year-old.

I had a pet theory/hope that Olver would still somehow go with Mat and Thom to the Tower of Ghenjei and give himself up (or twenty years of life or something) to the Finns and 'become' Gaidal Cain. I figured Noal would betray Mat and Thom but Olver would sneak into the Tower by himself and save everybody.

Glen
12-08-2010, 10:39 AM
I find myself still emotionally tied to it being Olver, although I realize the timing and Olver's age doesn't work.

I've never understood why the timing necessarily screws it up - it has never been established either when a soul is gained by a person in the first place in WoT, or how the heroes are spun out.

It's theoretically plausible that WoT people only get souls at a certain age, and 10 years old could be that age, in theory. Alternatively, it's plausible that heroes' souls are sort of "merged" with appropriate people when necessary, at a young age.

Having said this, RJ confirmed in an interview that Olver is not Gaidal Cain, no uncertainty at all, no wiggle room for it to be twisted. Olver is more than just a red herring, though - apparently, he's significant in some other way.


I do wonder if maybe Gaidal Cain has been hinted at somewhere specifically - maybe there was a pregnancy noted around the time he disappeared, or we've seen a woman with an ugly baby in a scene. I can't believe that RJ would have made it so clear that Gaidal has been reborn, yet not provide any hints whatsoever on where he'll show up. I'll keep my eye out for it on my next read-through.

Actually, RJ specifically points out that Gaidal wasn't reborn to fight the last battle, but for a future purpose. This leads me to wonder - could he have been reborn into the Black Tower's camp? Maybe he's the son of one of the Asha'man and his wife? This would place him close enough that there's a good chance that he would meet with Birgitte, give him a potential purpose for being reborn (there's going to be problems arising during the re-merging of the Aes Sedai and Asha'man, and Birgitte does point out that in one previous life, she helped with the founding of the White Tower), and enable him to appear "on-camera" in a subtle manner without having to be in the presence of any major character at the time.

The Immortal One
12-08-2010, 11:10 AM
It's theoretically plausible that WoT people only get souls at a certain age, and 10 years old could be that age, in theory.

What? Are you saying that people walk around for the first 10 years without a soul?

I've always known children are evil, but ...?!?

subwoofer
12-08-2010, 12:21 PM
What I never get a straight answer on is the timing. Now Birgitte did say that Cain was woven back into the Pattern before her. What we do not know is how the passage of time works, okay, what has not been explained to me is how the passage of time works. Do we know for sure that a day here is a day in the Dream? It has always been my contention that Gaidal is out in the world, and yes he may be younger than Birgitte, but not a baby. I always figured that it might be a case like with one of Mat's tales where a guy comes out with a gray beard and a pocket full of gold... Gaidal may be floating around at the age of 20 or something.

OTOH this may be a chance for the Wheel to do a reboot. If Birgitte dies at the end of this story, she will probably get rebound to the Wheel and maybe spun out again, following the proper chronology where she is younger than Gaidal.

Mam A'Lemur
12-08-2010, 12:21 PM
Ohhh- just had a thought. Gaidal is probably just a few years old. And my theory is that he's Grady's ugly kid. We know he's too young for Birgitte, and them getting together in this spinout seems unlikely. But she's in a dangerous position as Elayne's warder. What if, somehow Elayne dies in childbirth or something (sure, her kids will be fine, but wouldn't that be poetic justice?), and Birgitte goes all warder crazy and manages to get herself killed as well? And then she is reborn as an infant. And wouldn't it be cool if she's reborn as one of Elayne's brats?

subwoofer
12-08-2010, 03:41 PM
Ohhh- just had a thought. Gaidal is probably just a few years old. And my theory is that he's Grady's ugly kid. We know he's too young for Birgitte, and them getting together in this spinout seems unlikely. But she's in a dangerous position as Elayne's warder. What if, somehow Elayne dies in childbirth or something (sure, her kids will be fine, but wouldn't that be poetic justice?), and Birgitte goes all warder crazy and manages to get herself killed as well? And then she is reborn as an infant. And wouldn't it be cool if she's reborn as one of Elayne's brats?

Now I am all over the Elayne dying angle- but I think that would drive Rand and the other girls crazy... And I always figured Birgitte would not make it to the end of this. I always figured she would die before Mat sounded the Horn and then Mat would call her back right away as he sounds the thing.

Weird Harold
12-08-2010, 04:16 PM
Ohhh- just had a thought. Gaidal is probably just a few years old. And my theory is that he's Grady's ugly kid.

Jur and Sora's son was already three or four years old -- and in possession of his own soul -- while Gaidal was still in T'A'R. I thought the same thing when Jur told Perrin his son was homely.

...how the passage of time works. Do we know for sure that a day here is a day in the Dream? It has always been my contention that Gaidal is out in the world, and yes he may be younger than Birgitte, but not a baby. ...

Time runs strangley in T'A'R but it does NOT run backwards. No person living while Gaidal was known to be in T'A'R can be Gaidal reborn.

No Child not born within nine months of Gaidal's disappearance from T'A'R can be Gaidal Reborn.

I've never understood why the timing necessarily screws it up - it has never been established either when a soul is gained by a person in the first place in WoT,

IIRC, RJ said that a soul becomes incarnated at conception. His answer, in context, is in Terez' interview database in her signature link

However, I think he also said that Gaidal was already reborn and a babe-in-arms somewhere which doesn't fit with the "ensouled at conception" explanation.

Personally, I think a child breathing in its assigned soul with it's first breath fits the rest of the WOT cosmology better, but The Creator has spoken (and destroyed a cherished theory of mine in the process.)

Ten years before getting a soul or a Hero's soul replacing the soul the body was born with are totally out of the question -- the latter is the DO's tactic and definitely non-heroic.


Birgitte reported that Gaidal had been spun out on Day 512 according to the WOT Chronology (http://www.stevenac.net/wot/wotchron.htm) That means Gaidal woul have been reborn no later than day 782. Look for a babe born sometime between tFoH Ch 14 and TGS Ch30.

Mam A'Lemur
12-08-2010, 08:38 PM
Now I am all over the Elayne dying angle- but I think that would drive Rand and the other girls crazy... And I always figured Birgitte would not make it to the end of this. I always figured she would die before Mat sounded the Horn and then Mat would call her back right away as he sounds the thing.
It just seems like something's going to happen to her, since she's relying on Min's viewing so much and feels that she's invincible. Her scuffle with the Black Ajah just didn't seem like it was enough.

[QUOTE=Weird Harold;134611]Jur and Sora's son was already three or four years old -- and in possession of his own soul -- while Gaidal was still in T'A'R. I thought the same thing when Jur told Perrin his son was homely.

You're right, of course. However, I did have a crazy dream one night shortly after reading ToM, and it involved Grady's son - he was aging faster than he should have been. Even though he was only a few years old, by the time the get-together at the Field of Merrilor happened, he was at least the age of Olver. Then he ended up being Olver. I can't remember the whole thing. It also involved stasis boxes that were bunkers a mile long underground. But I woke up convinced he was Gaidal.

I really shouldn't fall asleep reading while the TV is still on. I think it was on the History Channel and Cities of the Underworld was on. That's a great way to have really strange dreams. :)

subwoofer
12-08-2010, 08:49 PM
It just seems like something's going to happen to her, since she's relying on Min's viewing so much and feels that she's invincible. Her scuffle with the Black Ajah just didn't seem like it was enough.


Yeah, if one guy with a sock full of quarters was standing by we'd all be at peace with the whole thing. I had visions of her walking down the field while the Dragons Eggs are going off thinking to herself, "gee, Min's viewings says I'll be okay..."

FelixPax
12-08-2010, 09:18 PM
anyone have any insight? He was last seen in TAR by his beloved Birgitte, supposedly was spun back into the pattern before she was ripped out. Will Sanderson find him for us? Will we see him again with the horn? Will Birgitte find an ugly baby and raise it to marry?:eek:


If Wolves and Man, can be both in the 'Dream worlds' and in the 'True world'... what is to say that Gaidal Cain, is not already a grown up Adult?

Remember Boundless is both a man and one who can enter the Wolf Dream? (TofM book) Boundless did not walk in the Dream, as a normal man for a very long time. Yet we're told Wolves are always in both places? Is that false? Can one become a Wolf in his heart, at a later time? Yes.



What is to say Birgitte has not already met Gaidal Cain in person, within the story? And yet, even she does not know this? Hence, all of Birgitte's later crying in Samara and Caemlyn over missing Gaidal Cain. (CoT, Ch. 11 'Talk of Debts')


Who is possibly an adult, who is Gaidal Cain? Whom Birgitte has already met in the story?

Uno (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/uz/uno_nomesta.html) Nomesta.

A one-eyed, ugly man, who inspired Mat, Perrin and Rand's actions, thoughts at times throughout the series. Laugh, he is a man who even inspired enough anger in Nynaeve, for her to be channel and heal Logain's stilling.

Rough-tongued Uno, with a long scar down his face and only one eye.

The Eye of the World, Chapter 9 "Leavetakings" -- Rand pov


A man who lived to survive the 'Numbers of Chaos'... Who saw his own future possibilities, as did also, Ragan and all the Shienarians with Verin, Rand, Mat, Perrin and Loial. (TGH, Ch. 37 'What Might Be' - Rand pov)


Who is Uno last known to be with?

Leading the 'heavy cavalry' for Egwene al'Vere's and Gareth Bryne's Aes Sedai armies. (TFoH, Ch. 50; LoC, Ch.8; TPoD, Ch.17, TPoD, Ch.19)

Meanwhile Birgitte is responsible for Elayne's Queen Guard and Andoran soldiers ultimately.

Gaidal Cain and Birgitte each have the chance to re-connect their own legendary love story, in AMoL book. Uno is exactly Birgitte's type of man. :)


Rubbing a knuckle across her lips, Birgitte frowned. “Thom and Juilin are good men, but the best way to avoid trouble is to make sure no one wants to trouble you. A dozen or so Shienarans in armor—or out—would go a long way toward that. I don’t understand you and Uno. He is tough, and he’d follow you (Nynaeve) and Elayne into the Pit of Doom.” A sudden grin bloomed on her face. “Besides, he’s a well-set-up fellow.”

“We do not need anyone to hold our hands,” Nynaeve told her stiffly. Well set up? That painted eyepatch flashed queasily across her mind, and the scars. The woman had the strangest taste in men. “We can handle anything that comes our way. I’d think we’ve already proved that, if it needed proof.”

Lord of Chaos, Chapter 12 "Questions and Answers" -- Nynaeve point of view; with Birgitte

dpt24
12-08-2010, 11:43 PM
I have no idea who Cain is, but I'm guessing that child is likely to play a part in the "outrigger" novels

jana
12-09-2010, 12:01 AM
what is to say that Gaidal Cain, is not Uno?

sanity

Weird Harold
12-09-2010, 01:14 AM
...what is to say that Gaidal Cain, is not already a grown up Adult?

Uhm... Just maybe RJ's assertion that OLVER is obviously TOO OLD TO BE GAIDAL REBORN! :rolleyes:

If Olver is too old to be Gaidal, what does that say about Uno, who is four or five times as old?

Daekyras
12-09-2010, 02:42 AM
Will Birgitte find an ugly baby and raise it to marry?:eek:

On a random note here, has anyone read the novels Ghost King and The Last Sword of Power by David Gemmell?

Theres a similar sort of plot device between Lancelot and Guinavere. (Awesome novels too.)

lurk
12-09-2010, 04:50 AM
Having said this, RJ confirmed in an interview that Olver is not Gaidal Cain, no uncertainty at all, no wiggle room for it to be twisted. Olver is more than just a red herring, though - apparently, he's significant in some other way.

Olver played a role already. He is one of the key persons to learn Mat to take responsibility for others in his care. Made Mat a careful and caring general and that is why the band loves him too. He keeps them alive (and yes his luck comes into play too)

his continued playing of snakes and foxes gave our tower trio info about the realm of snakes and foxes.

future role? maybe but no he is not a red herring

subwoofer
12-09-2010, 09:24 AM
Uhm... Just maybe RJ's assertion that OLVER is obviously TOO OLD TO BE GAIDAL REBORN! :rolleyes:

If Olver is too old to be Gaidal, what does that say about Uno, who is four or five times as old?

LOL:D

- Not to mention that Uno is okay with a sword, but I wouldn't give him Hero of the Horn status because of it. Heck, he looks on Galad with respect because of what Galad could do with a sword and we all know that Galad is not perfect either. I get the impression that Gaidal Cain is a step above.

Edit- my 100th post Whoot! er... sorry, it is a TOR thing for me:D

morat'corlm
12-09-2010, 09:53 AM
If Wolves and Man, can be both in the 'Dream worlds' and in the 'True world'... what is to say that Gaidal Cain, is not already a grown up Adult?Nothing at all. That's a key point in my peeling apart of the layers of conspiracy to conclusively prove that Gaidal Cain is Valan Luca (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=117614#post117614).

Mam A'Lemur
12-09-2010, 10:34 AM
Nothing at all. That's a key point in my peeling apart of the layers of conspiracy to conclusively prove that Gaidal Cain is Valan Luca (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=117614#post117614).

Gaidal Cain cannot be Luca - he's too pretty by half. My new vote is that Gaidal has been reborn as... Padan Fain. He was remade when he went to Thakan'dar, right? He doesn't want to think about what happens there. What would be more horrible for a super darkfriend to have a new soul from a hero of the horn? The internal conflict alone would drive him batshit enough to be Fain. Remade... reborn... What was the time line? Maybe roughly when Gaidal was spun out? Hmmmm. :D

subwoofer
12-09-2010, 11:13 AM
Nothing at all. That's a key point in my peeling apart of the layers of conspiracy to conclusively prove that Gaidal Cain is Valan Luca (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=117614#post117614).

Right. I will not say you are bonkers... because as I followed that thread, others have said just that- or they drank the kool aid, in which case their opinions are invalid as they are crazy as well. Anyways beyond the rapid 5 week aging process and Luca being ta'veren?! You also kinda skipped over his swordsmanship;) I seemed to have missed Luca on the blademaster's rankings:D

SixPips
12-10-2010, 10:44 AM
The internal conflict alone would drive him batshit enough to be Fain.

I read that, and promptly spewed Mountain Dew all over my computer. Epic, now my keyboard is sticky...

Mam A'Lemur
12-10-2010, 11:01 AM
I read that, and promptly spewed Mountain Dew all over my computer. Epic, now my keyboard is sticky...

:D Sorry about that. I could make up some very bad jokes about sticky keyboards, but I will refrain. Ahem.

a dragonburned fool
12-10-2010, 11:27 AM
As much sense it makes, that the moment of dissapearance of Gaidal from TAR is the moment of his binding to some embryo, I'm not completely sure, because of this old Birgitte quote:
TFoH, ch.36:
"This is not Tel'aran'rhiod." It was not a question, but Elayne nodded, and Birgitte sank back with a long sigh. "I remember everything," she whispered. "I am here as I am, and I remember. All is changed. Gaidal is out there, somewhere, an infant, or even a young boy. But even if I find him, what will he think of a woman more than old enough to be his mother?" She scrubbed angrily at her eyes, muttering, "I do not cry. I never cry. I remember that, the Light help me. I never cry."True, Birgitte is under quite a stress in this particular scene, but even so I doubt that she would make such a mistake.

Does it mean that a HotH disappears from TAR not in the moment of getting body, but in the moment a baby begins to form consciousness?

Terez
12-10-2010, 11:28 AM
RJ said the soul enters the fetus.

Terez
12-10-2010, 12:00 PM
To clarify, I don't think that Birgitte would necessarily be aware of the point at which the soul enters the fetus because the brain is undeveloped. Most of us don't remember much before age three or so. It's probably safe to say she doesn't remember her various infancies in Tel'aran'rhiod, either.

FelixPax
12-10-2010, 01:00 PM
You got a link, Terez?

RJ said the soul enters the fetus.

Then explain why Humans in WoT, are not typically Dreamers akin to Wolves?
Whom every single Wolf has memories of their past lives, and of others?
Why is Dreaming a different act, say for Egwene versus Perrin versus Dapple?

Robert Jordan also stated that the Ta'veren effect does not exist at all for children growing up. Mat just didn't start speaking in the Old Tongue, on a whim... those were Old Blood memories, pre-Aridhol and pre-Eelfinn scenes.

Want a parallel theory of a late love in life, in the WoT universe?

Thom and Moiraine.
Thom's far older, than Uno is...

Who was Thom's soul previously know as? Rogosh Eagle-eye.
Who was Moiraine's soul? Dunsinin.
Thom, Moiraine each once in a former life lived in Rhuidean too...(Rand pov).

Now how many lovers and years, did Thom wait before finally agreeing to wed Moiraine?

In Uno's case, it's the same... a long wait, before the memories and love, do take hold....

Terez
12-10-2010, 01:49 PM
You got a link, Terez?
It's in my sig, darling. Not the link, perhaps, but a link. ;) Try the Workings of the Wheel category. As for the rest of your post....wat?

Jokeslayer
12-10-2010, 02:05 PM
Quote: H: When a soul is reborn, at what point does it enter the body?
RJ: Hmm . . . I’d have to say as a fetus. When the body becomes capable of sustaining life.


Source: https://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcjspjqg_74xw3j58sj

And fetus-stage begins at 9 weeks after fertilisation, according to wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetus We can't be entirely sure exactly when RJ intended fetus to refer to, however (9 weeks is far too early to be considered capable of sustaining life; twenty-something weeks is probably closer to the mark)

FelixPax
12-10-2010, 03:42 PM
It's in my sig, darling. Not the link, perhaps, but a link. ;) Try the Workings of the Wheel category. As for the rest of your post....wat?


Okay, that link states:

Reports from signings (paraphrased)

H: When a soul is reborn, at what point does it enter the body?
RJ: Hmm . . . I’d have to say as a fetus. When the body becomes capable of sustaining life.

H: Ok. In The Eye of the World, Thom said that the dead can take over a living body. If this happened, what would happen to the original soul?
RJ: Read and find out.

Source: Thus Spake the Creator - Workings of the Wheel (http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Stargate/8513/creator-wheel.htm)

I noticed an omission of Mat Cauthon's sudden Old Tongue sayings, in tEotW book, to which Robert Jordan above gives a RAFO.


“Carai an Caldazar,” Moiraine said. They all twisted to stare at her. “Carai an Ellisande. Al Ellisande. For the honor of the Red Eagle. For the honor of the Rose of the Sun. The Rose of the Sun. The ancient warcry of Manetheren, and the warcry of its last king. Eldrene was called the Rose of the Sun.” Moiraine’s smile took in Egwene and Mat both, though her gaze may have rested a moment longer on him than on her. “The blood of Arad’s line is still strong in the Two Rivers. The old blood still sings.”

The Eye of the World, Chapter 18 "The Caemlyn Road" - Rand point of view

Mat scowled. “I was thinking about . . . about what happened back there. About those words I . . . ” Everybody turned to look at him then, not just Rand, and he shifted uneasily. “Well, you heard what Moiraine said. It’s as if some dead man was speaking with my mouth. I don’t like it.” His scowl grew deeper when Perrin chuckled.

“Aemon’s warcry, she said—right? Maybe you’re Aemon come back again. The way you go on about how dull Emond’s Field is, I’d think you would like that—being a king and hero reborn.”

“Don’t say that!” Thom drew a deep breath; everybody stared at him now. “That is dangerous talk, stupid talk. The dead can be reborn, or take a living body, and it is not something to speak of lightly.” He took another breath to calm himself before going on. “The old blood, she said. The blood, not a dead man. I’ve heard that it can happen, sometimes. Heard, though I never really thought . . . It was your roots, boy. A line running from you to your father to your grandfather, right on back to Manetheren, and maybe beyond. Well, now you know your family is old. You ought to let it go at that and be glad. Most people don’t know much more than that they had a father.”

The Eye of the World, Chapter 19 "Shadow's Waiting" -- Rand point of view; with Thom, Perrin, Mat Cauthon and a bunch of horses


In other words, there is no interview evidence to dispute a Theory proclaiming that Uno is Gaidal Cain. Just as there is no solid proof against a Theory stating that Mat Cauthon's sou was once known as Aemon al Caar al Thorin. Or that Fortuona's soul was once known as Eldrene ay Ellan ay Carlan. :)

Conclusion:


Mat & Fortuona = Aemon & Eldrene.
Uno & Birgitte = Gaidal Cain & Birgitte.


What's a fresh way to recreate and renew that 'bodice ripping' genre?
Call it, "The Wheel of Romance". ;)

morat'corlm
12-10-2010, 04:03 PM
In other words, there is no interview evidence to dispute a Theory proclaiming that Uno is Gaidal Cain.Except for that first quotation you copied yourself. Soul implanted pre-birth + time not moving backward in Tel'aran'rhiod + Gaidal's soul disappearing from Tel'aran'rhiod between TSR and TFOH => Gaidal could not have become anyone alive before TFOH, including Uno, Olver, Grady's son, or indeed Valan Luca.

I think this is an appropriate time to take my new sig for a spin.

Jokeslayer
12-10-2010, 05:17 PM
In other words, there is no interview evidence to dispute a Theory proclaiming that Uno is Gaidal Cain.

There's also no interview evidence refuting the Theory (ha!) that Lan is a potato in disguise. Because the books do it instead.

Uno-soul and Gaidal-soul cannot be the same (Falme and Gaidal's appearance in TAR for evidence) and you have provided no method by which the Gaidal-soul could have entered the Uno-body.

FelixPax
12-10-2010, 06:15 PM
Uno-soul and Gaidal-soul cannot be the same (Falme and Gaidal's appearance in TAR for evidence) and you have provided no method by which the Gaidal-soul could have entered the Uno-body.

No Method?

How to do memories develop within Humans?

They are created, retained, and recollected over a duration of time.
They are not gained immediately.

Humans memories, function differently than Wolf memories.

Hopper in the Wolf Dream, is the same being, he was in the True World.
However, what occurs to human who lacks an knowing connection to the TAR?

Look at Mat Cauthon in tEotW book, who speaks in the Old Tongue... yet, who doesn't understand what he is saying. At that time, Mat does not know about Tuon at all. Whoever Gaidal Cain is now, underwent a similar process to which Mat Cauthon did earlier. It takes TIME to learn who one is, and what is to be, in the WoT series.

Look at Thom's character development over time, if your doubt my interpretation of events. Memories and Acknowledgment are a different thing from a Soul being being placed in a fetus altogether.

Thom's future love of life, was already live in the True World... yet where and how was Thom doing? He was hanging out in Tar Valon at an Inn was two sisters, and drinking away his heartache. Meanwhile Moiraine was alive and traveling to Tear, with Perrin and company.

Birgitte and Uno's future relationship, is akin to Thom & Moiraine.

Jokeslayer
12-10-2010, 06:31 PM
No Method?

How to do memories develop within Humans?

They are created, retained, and recollected over a duration of time.
They are not gained immediately.

Humans memories, function differently than Wolf memories.

Hopper in the Wolf Dream, is the same being, he was in the True World.
However, what occurs to human who lacks an knowing connection to the TAR?

Look at Mat Cauthon in tEotW book, who speaks in the Old Tongue... yet, who doesn't understand what he is saying. At that time, Mat does not know about Tuon at all. Whoever Gaidal Cain is now, underwent a similar process to which Mat Cauthon did earlier. It takes TIME to learn who one is, and what is to be, in the WoT series.

Look at Thom's character development over time, if your doubt my interpretation of events. Memories and Acknowledgment are a different thing from a Soul being being placed in a fetus altogether.

Thom's future love of life, was already live in the True World... yet where and how was Thom doing? He was hanging out in Tar Valon at an Inn was two sisters, and drinking away his heartache. Meanwhile Moiraine was alive and traveling to Tear, with Perrin and company.

Birgitte and Uno's future relationship, is akin to Thom & Moiraine.

There's still no method here to explain how the Gaidal-soul, which was definitively not in the Uno-body as of mid-TSR (it was seen in TAR and was stated by Birgitte to be bound by the precepts, which clearly do not apply to and are probably unknown to Rand, our only definitive TAR-going Hero-Soul) entered the Uno-body after the Uno-body had reached adulthood. The proces you're descrbing with Mat and Thom has nothing to do with them gaining or swapping their pre-TEOTW souls for new souls at a later point.

GonzoTheGreat
12-11-2010, 04:47 AM
Reports from signings (paraphrased)

H: When a soul is reborn, at what point does it enter the body?
RJ: Hmm . . . I’d have to say as a fetus. When the body becomes capable of sustaining life.

H: Ok. In The Eye of the World, Thom said that the dead can take over a living body. If this happened, what would happen to the original soul?
RJ: Read and find out.And we did find out, when Semirhage spelled it out for us after her capture. The original soul is the new soul, but the personality goes totally insane.
And, as an alternative scenario, we have the Fain/Mordeth mess, which does not seem to be any better behaved.

So this is now clear, and neither case applies to Uno at all.

Landro
12-11-2010, 01:48 PM
Jur and Sora's son was already three or four years old -- and in possession of his own soul -- while Gaidal was still in T'A'R. I thought the same thing when Jur told Perrin his son was homely.

Yeah, that part made me dig up my old books and search for the scene where Rand brings Taim to the farm. It did make me notice an error about Grady's dad. Here's a link to a post from somebody who posted it before I got the chance. http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=122271&postcount=27

Weird Harold
12-11-2010, 03:01 PM
Yeah, that part made me dig up my old books and search for the scene where Rand brings Taim to the farm. It did make me notice an error about Grady's dad. Here's a link to a post from somebody who posted it before I got the chance. http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=122271&postcount=27
I'm not sure that's an error.

Grady's Father could channel and was found by the Reds -- and presumably gentled and died.

Grady's Pa is watching the croft -- not his "Father" his "Pa." A step-parent who raised you from a young age might be "Pa" while the biological parent who died when you were very young and is only dimly remembered would be the much more formal "father."

rdmaxwell
03-15-2011, 05:41 PM
On January 18, 2011, Brandon Sanderson tweeted:

"Gaidal has been reborn, and I do know who he is, and he is younger than Olver. (Sorry.)"

So any new theories?

Marie Curie 7
03-15-2011, 08:05 PM
On January 18, 2011, Brandon Sanderson tweeted:

"Gaidal has been reborn, and I do know who he is, and he is younger than Olver. (Sorry.)"

So any new theories?

It's nobody we know. None of the known babies fit the age range.

See here (https://docs.google.com/View?docid=dfgg99fp_30dsts54c8) under "So, who is it then?" for a little more elaboration.

4Alethinos
03-15-2011, 11:01 PM
Thank youi MC7 for the sanity. Good grief, those who pay no attention to the cosmology of the WoT is absolutley amazing!

Time in TAR is absolutely synchronized with that of the real world. Even the place of the Heroes is closely synchronized with the real world.

Those who claim that Gaidal Cain could be older than Olver are just playing games to get the rest of us stirred up.

BTW, it is good to see that WH is still posting in his amazingly sane manner. Kudos, old man.

GonzoTheGreat
03-16-2011, 05:07 AM
On January 18, 2011, Brandon Sanderson tweeted:

"Gaidal has been reborn, and I do know who he is, and he is younger than Olver. (Sorry.)"

So any new theories?Gaidal is the son of Moridin and Moghedien.

Weiramon
03-16-2011, 11:29 AM
Bah! Probably the whelp of some Cairhienin serving woman.

GonzoTheGreat
03-16-2011, 11:37 AM
Bah! Probably the whelp of some Cairhienin serving woman.Or a Tairen one. Wouldn't it be fun if Mat were the father?

Weiramon
03-16-2011, 12:21 PM
He would make a good father, if that Olver lad is any indication.

But could be a threat to the Seanchan throne. No one wants some illegitimate offspring showing up, contesting their rule. A messy business that. Best to round up all the babies born in Tear in the last year or so, and exile them to some remote island.

rdmaxwell
03-16-2011, 05:14 PM
Personally I think Gaidal Cain is Gadren Grady, he is big for his age. I have a nephew who looked 4 when he was younger than 2. I think that might apply to Gadren.

Edynol
03-22-2011, 11:41 PM
I have a small theory that may or may not make sense. Now we know that TAR doesn't move backwards in time, perse`, but what if it exists in different line of time. While it does move forward there, it doesn't move parallell to time in the normal world. Actually, we already know that, to a point, but what if it's more than that?

I'm not sure how to explain this, but what if when someone goes into TAR, they are actually going back in time in that world and interacting with the people who live there as spirits. True, Nyneave met Cain in TAR, but what if, compared to our time, she had already done that before she did and when she actually went there and did it, she was just catching up to her TAR self in that point of time?

It's kind of a paradox, I know, but maybe it would explain how a soul could seemingly be in TAR at the same time it was alive in the real world, but in fact you were just interacting with the past version, an echo, if you will, of that soul. Like I said, I don't know if this makes any sense to yall, as I'm not sure really how to put it to words, but there it is.

Zombie Sammael
03-23-2011, 10:19 AM
@Edynol - it's an interesting idea but I don't think there's any evidence that time in TAR flows any differently to time in the rest of the world.

Terez
03-23-2011, 12:21 PM
We know time flows different there - Birgitte explained it. But RJ also explained that Gaidal Cain has to have been born after he disappeared in Tel'aran'rhiod because time does not flow backwards, so I'm not sure why Edynol thinks his/her argument gets around that fact in any way.

Ieyasu
03-23-2011, 02:42 PM
We know time flows different there - Birgitte explained it. But RJ also explained that Gaidal Cain has to have been born after he disappeared in Tel'aran'rhiod because time does not flow backwards, so I'm not sure why Edynol thinks his/her argument gets around that fact in any way.

If I read that person correctly, I think she is saying ppl in TAR are backwards in time, thus Cain was spun out prior to the corrisponding time in the real world... which makes no sense what so ever...:rolleyes:

Crispin's Crispian
03-23-2011, 04:18 PM
If I read that person correctly, I think she is saying ppl in TAR are backwards in time, thus Cain was spun out prior to the corrisponding time in the real world... which makes no sense what so ever...:rolleyes:

If time flows differently in T'A'R, then an event in the real world may not correspond to its T'A'R counterpart. Of course, that assumes some sort of absolute time measurement, which there is not.

But imagine if time is slower in the Unseen World one day. Let's say a house burns down in the Real World that morning. The house may not disappear in T'A'R for, say, several hours in the RW. That is, you could dream yourself into T'A'R and find the house still there.

Now imagine if a Hero of the Horn were born that morning. The baby is crying at 9 a.m., but since time is slower in T'A'R, the Hero could potentially still be in T'A'R at 10 a.m.

I think RJ was deliberately trying to avoid such problems by having static structures (like White Towers) leave a stronger impression than dynamic objects (like letters in a box). But if time indeed flows faster or slower at any given point, events cannot correspond directly. This means Gaidal Cain could have potentially been born into the Real World before his soul actually left Tel'aran'rhiod.


**ETA**
I wonder if time is subjective to the dreamer, such that once a person knew Gaidal was reborn, all interactions in T'A'R could include that fact. Makes for problems with Birgitte's conversations pre-ripout though...

Weird Harold
03-23-2011, 04:22 PM
I really don't understand why it is so hard for people to understand the parameters of who can and cannot be Gaidal Cain Reborn:

Time runs strangley in T'A'R but it does NOT run backwards. No person living while Gaidal was known to be in T'A'R can be Gaidal reborn.

No Child not born within nine months of Gaidal's disappearance from T'A'R can be Gaidal Reborn.

...

Birgitte reported that Gaidal had been spun out on Day 512 according to the WOT Chronology (http://www.stevenac.net/wot/wotchron.htm) That means Gaidal woul have been reborn no later than day 782. Look for a babe born sometime between tFoH Ch 14 and TGS Ch30.

Heinz
03-23-2011, 04:42 PM
Not by years though. So you're still back to Gaidal being an infant, or not yet born, no matter how one dances around the time differential in T'A'R.

(Come to think of it, are Melaine's twins about right for the timing of Gaidal Cain's disappearance? I'm trying to remember.. Min tells Melaine from her vision in.. LoC, and Melaine just barely knew at that point. Not even known long enough to tell Bael. Gaidal disappears at some point in what, tFoH?)

Though to that point, I took the time difference to apply only to how a particular person perceives time flowing in T'A'R as opposed to the real world. It isn't that Birgitte was existing in one time frame while, say, Nynaeve was experiencing a different one in the future, and they brought their time together.

It is that, had Birgitte remained in the T'A'R reflection of a mountain in the Spine of the World, while Nynaeve remained in the T'A'R reflection of the Stone of Tear, each would perceive a different experience of time flow. Say for Birgitte, 3 hours in the real world actually only feels like an hour in T'A'R. And for Nynaeve, just 90 minutes passes in the real world while she feels like it has been an hour.

If they come together, then they experience the same time flow.

Now if Gaidal Cain's new real world body that he has been spun out to was ready for his soul at 9am Real World Time, it really doesn't matter what time it is in T'A'R. If you put yourself into a waking trance at 8am Real World Time, and spent two hours in the real world there but it felt like three hours in T'A'R, and while in T'A'R you were somehow with Gaidal Cain (and he was breaking the Precepts to be talking to you at that time), then I would imagine he'd disappear at whatever point the real world hit 9am. The crazy thing is, I doubt that event would even match the 2:3 ratio I just put in. As I recall, a basis of this entire series is Jordan playing with non-linear time.

None of this allows for a pseudo 'time-travel', however, and I don't think it was intended to be a possibility. It is all a matter of how one perceives the passage of their experience of time in T'A'R. (Edited to reinforce this, as it was the point I was trying to make. It is perception, not actual time movement. Thanks to Harold's post for reminding me of what I'd begun with.)

Weird Harold
03-23-2011, 04:48 PM
If time flows differently in T'A'R, then an event in the real world may not correspond to its T'A'R counterpart. Of course, that assumes some sort of absolute time measurement, which there is not.
...
**ETA**
I wonder if time is subjective to the dreamer, such that once a person knew Gaidal was reborn, all interactions in T'A'R could include that fact. Makes for problems with Birgitte's conversations pre-ripout though...

Time is subjective to dreamers and wakers alike.

It is really very simple: The rate at "time runs" is a measure of how many actions/perceptions can be packed into the space between two events. Any event or interaction that affects both T'A'R and the waking world synchronizes time so that there is an objective before and after divide in both timelines.

Queen of Malkier
04-22-2011, 06:02 PM
I am hoping it is Olver. He definitely seems to fit the qualifications, ugly as hell and brave.
Plus, every time I'm about to discard it as Cain not being olver, I'm reminded of the many times throughout the series when we're reminded that time in T'A'R and in the waking world are very different. Who's to say a few weeks in T'A'R between Cain being spun out and Birgitte being ripped out couldn't possibly be a decade or so in the waking world?

Terez
04-22-2011, 09:07 PM
I am hoping it is Olver. He definitely seems to fit the qualifications, ugly as hell and brave.
Plus, every time I'm about to discard it as Cain not being olver, I'm reminded of the many times throughout the series when we're reminded that time in T'A'R and in the waking world are very different. Who's to say a few weeks in T'A'R between Cain being spun out and Birgitte being ripped out couldn't possibly be a decade or so in the waking world?
Please read this: Gaidal Cain for Noobs (https://docs.google.com/View?docID=dfgg99fp_30dsts54c8&revision=_latest) ;) (Yes, I know how long you've been around - I remember when you joined, after all - but that makes it even funnier!)