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padfoot89
12-11-2010, 01:17 PM
Who is the person that Min sees around Thom who is juggling fire, white tower and all ?

Also, how was Moiraine so sure that Tom would survive and that she would see Thom again when she told him to go to Tanchico? The next time he sees her is in the Tower of Ghenjei. Come to think of it, she seemed sure that Thom had survived the Fade attack in Whitebridge. How could she possibly have known all this prior to seeing all her futures in that ter'angreal ?

What about the names of the red sisters she was supposed to give him? There was no guarantee that they would all make it out of ToG.

And last but not least, when the heck did Thom fall for Moiraine ? He had no feelings for her at all when she saw him in Tear.

Terez
12-11-2010, 01:45 PM
Who is the person that Min sees around Thom who is juggling fire, white tower and all ?
We don't know. Probably either Mat or Rand.

Also, how was Moiraine so sure that Tom would survive and that she would see Thom again when she told him to go to Tanchico?Probably because Min told her in Baerlon that she and Thom would marry, which was alluded to more clearly a bit before that chapter, when she was talking to the girls as they questioned Joiya and Amico.

And last but not least, when the heck did Thom fall for Moiraine ? He had no feelings for her at all when she saw him in Tear.He starts showing signs of being attracted to her in TGH. The scene in Tear was a little fraught because she was provoking him.

PS - I put all the important quotes together here (http://forum.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=messageboard.viewThread&entryID=68983043&groupID=100026096&adTopicID=19&Mytoken=43114829-E448-4F50-97940A284C50CFFF337526394) years ago. Read up. ;)

FelixPax
12-11-2010, 04:43 PM
Who is the person that Min sees around Thom who is juggling fire, white tower and all ?

Valan Luca.

He represents almost all the ideal aspects of the original command the Aes Sedai gave the Da'Shain Aiel three thousand years before. He protects his People, he never settled down, he strives for peace, and attempts to avoid conflict if at all possible. However, yes, Luca has some interesting character flaws. ;)

Both Thom and Valan jungled fire in tFoH book, and Valan has a good supply of firesticks created by Aludra--because Nynaeve & Elayne each packed them into his old Wagon.

He is implied to have visited the Stedding at Tar Valon, after having a falling out with Ila & Raen at Stedding Tsofu (Clues from Erith pov, Perrin pov). Secondly, Ila who is likely a relative and a Tuatha'an herself, very name means "island" under one definition.

Valan Luca also possesses a Letter signed by Tuon, stating he under her personal protection by Mat Cauthon is not. Luca stated in KoD Book, he was going to hire Ships to travel to Tar Valon. Meaning Valan Luca is going to be in Tar Valon likely went the Seanchan attack the White Tower. It's possible Luca might become a go between the two attacking sides, as Luca is known by two former Sitters Teslyn, Joline and one former Rebel Aes Sedai Edesina. Obviously, this attack Scene within the White Tower is going to be quite complex setting of interactions, and likely would contain a bunch of character points of view: Seanchan, Aes Sedai, Luca,

Valan Luca made a "promise" to Nynaeve, when she departed for a ship in Samara. Valan will keep his promise. Even under a Seanchan attack, Valan will attempt to protect Nynaeve, if he learns she is in any danger. He has done that once before in Samara--save Nynaeve's life.

Valan Luca though does not likely know that Nynaeve nor Elayne were channelers, let alone Aes Sedai. Secondly, Valan Luca and Liandrin likely DO know of each other. That prior relationship or knowledge of each other, is one reason I suspect why Moghedien did not find Nynaeve & Elayne in Samara--until that is Nynaeve walked in to visit the Prophet in person, with Uno. Moghedien, I believe was hiding as the Prophet's female cook in Samara. Uno saved Nynaeve's hide in that scene too.


The Coming Seanchan attack upon the White Tower


The broken relationships symbolized by the coming of the Dragon Reborn, should be mended when all hell breaks loose in Tar Valon--by the coming of Mat Cauthon, Thom & Moiraine, Valan Luca.

(Mierin needs to be saved in AMoL too, but thats another issue.)


Others character likely to be on scene include:


Major Characters: Nynaeve, Egwene, Gawyn (to screw-things up), Perrin (dying possibly at Tar Valon or elsewhere?)
The Attackers: Seanchan Deathwatch, Ogier Gardeners, Tylee, Lunal Galgan
Her Opinions Count: Selucia (role of Truthspeaker)
Seanchan Aes Sedai damane: Myelin (loyalty to Fortuona), Pura; Elaida (who endures pain to try to save the Tower)
Who Mat saved: Teslyn (red), Joline (green), Edesina (white)
Mat's cliche: Egeanin/Leilwin, Bethamin, Seta, Vanin (who knows the specifics of Tuon-Mat's Treaty), Bayle Domon, Juilin and Amathera (each important!)
Tuatha'an descended: Ila & Raen, Liandrin,
Aes Sedai Sitters: Yukiri (gray), Romanda (yellow), Seaine (white) in particular.
Accepted: Bodewhin Cauthon (Mat's sister); Sharina


Mat will want to protect his sister, from being leashed with an a'dam. Bodewhin likely has heard that his brother Mat, has married the Seanchan noble and now is the Prince of Ravens. What will she do when the Seanchan attack? Then there is likely a big role for Sharina to play when the Seanchan attack. It seems like Sharina will act with authority during this conflict, and will challenge the Sitters to accept Mat Cauthon's protection. Sharina did join the Aes Sedai in Murandy, and she has a smart mind... she should understand what really occurred when Talmanes, Egwene al'Vere, Northern Murandians, and Andorans forces all met once before. Sharina should know that the Band of Red Hand was aiding Egwene al'Vere's cause.


Others to play a role: Beonin (gray), Meidani (gray),


Merilille (gray): she is the last alive who saw 5 Aes Sedai agree in Ebou Dar, that Elayne is Aes Sedai without taking the last test. That set a legal precedent. Secondly, Merilille and Talaan together hold a key for Harine to become Mistress of the Ships in the near future.

Sarene (white): she might be important, because of her knowledge of the "Theory of Instructions" in furthering a do-able going truce and a series of exchanges between the Seanchan, Aes Sedai. Though Mat Cauthon once claimed that being a channeler was enough to be consider an Aes Sedai (TGH book). Yes, one underlining theme cutting across this whole series is the meaning of the "INSTRUCTIONS".




Sea Folk Characters, unsure exactly what will unfold: Raab, Renaile din Calon, Harine, Talaan.


What's important is almost every Sea Folk individual KNOWS Mat Cauthon's name & role in the Great Escape from Ebou Dar--they should know they can TRUST Mat Cauthon. Raab knows Mat Cauthon is Lucky too. Renaile previously made a personal Bargain with Mat Cauthon, in Ebou Dar. Renaile by her Bargain to Mat Cauthon implies that she acknowledged Cauthon as acting like a Master of Blades.



Also, how was Moiraine so sure that Tom would survive and that she would see Thom again when she told him to go to Tanchico? The next time he sees her is in the Tower of Ghenjei. Come to think of it, she seemed sure that Thom had survived the Fade attack in Whitebridge. How could she possibly have known all this prior to seeing all her futures in that ter'angreal ?

For all we know, Moiraine might have learned of her future upon visiting: The Green Man the 1st time; heard a Foretelling given previously?

Or perhaps Moiraine has a good knowledge of how Thom has survived previously in Andor versus the political winds. Sounds as if Moiraine followed Thom's doings for years and years, before the events in tEotW book occurred.

Thom did like Moiraine in tEotW book, but he was pushed away from her because he disliked in general of all Aes Sedai. He knew personally how they can harm individuals, regardless of their Oaths. Case in point his nephew, was severed and blackballed by his village because of an Aes Sedai acting outside of the norms.

jana
12-11-2010, 06:10 PM
He had no feelings for her at all when she saw him in Tear.

Erm...

Re-read the scene. "every grace a man could want, including laughing at his quips."

Terez
12-11-2010, 10:18 PM
Eh, but it's somewhat balanced by his paranoia and mistrust in that scene. That aspect doesn't really change until she's gone, which is part of why Thom felt such a responsibility toward her.

Belazamon
12-12-2010, 12:26 AM
We don't know. Probably either Mat or Rand.
Always figured it was his nephew, myself. Min should have recognized Rand or Mat, since she was a) talking to Rand at the time, and b) also describing a viewing she had of Mat.

Admittedly it could have been one of the "can't make out his face" viewings, but since we hadn't gotten Thom's back-story at the time, I figure his nephew makes the most sense. ~shrug~

GonzoTheGreat
12-12-2010, 04:25 AM
Who is the person that Min sees around Thom who is juggling fire, white tower and all ?Narishma.

And yes, if this actually happens to be correct, then I'm gonna give you lot "I told you so"s for quite a long time. Assuming that I remember this prediction, at least.

Squocka
12-12-2010, 05:37 AM
A Valan Luca white tower seanchan theory rolled into a response to who was juggling fire.

Awesome, i dont think the WT will be attacked again though except for Trollocs and Last Battle type stuff

FelixPax
12-13-2010, 04:13 AM
What about the names of the red sisters she was supposed to give him?

Seems as if Elaida's name is on the list, Moiraine Sedai send to Thom.

Separately, Alviarin once implied that Elaida's did something gravely against customs, which is found written in the 13th Depository. Alviarin was trying to blackmail Elaida at that time. Sounds as if Alviarin knows Elaida severed men, without first taking them to the White Tower. Likely Thom's nephew was one of those men.


A Valan Luca white tower seanchan theory rolled into a response to who was juggling fire.

Yup! :)


It's also connected to a theory where Mat Cauthon becomes "King" of the Aes Sedai. Egwene al'Vere as Amyrlin Seat, and Nynaeve al'Meara will each bend their necks to accept his authority. :eek:


Who can stop help stop an ongoing Seanchan military attack upon the White Tower? Mat Cauthon, ultimately because his status as a High Blood in the Imperial Family matters.


The two windows looked out on the stableyard. A Captain of the Green ranked with a banner-general, but in this place, most of those she outranked were aides or secretaries to senior officers of the Ever Victorious Army. Among the army as at sea, being of the Blood added little unless it was the High Blood.

Winter’s Heart, Chapter 21 “A Matter of Property” -- Egeanin point of view; with Bayle Domon

Mat Cauthon likely will outrank every Seanchan attacking the White Tower, but Empress Fortuona. Tylee is of the Low Blood. Even Lunal Galgan is a slightly lower ranking individual to the Empress's husband. Yes, even Furyk Karede is of a lower rank than Mat Cauthon is presently.

Ultimately, I suspect it will be Selucia new role as a Truthspeaker, who will persuade the Empress to back down. Why? Because if Fortuona continues the Seanchan attack, it will violate her promise & treaty with Mat Cauthon. Tuon promised "not to cause dissension" to Mat Cauthon's followers. Selucia will remind Tuon/Fortuona of her promise & treaty. Tuon claims to never have broken her word. I predict Tuon will keep her word & promises to Mat Cauthon.

Mat Cauthon also knows that a Charge of Dissension, is a serious, among the Seanchan Empire military service people (KoD book). Mat could charge the Empress with dissension, if she continues her attack upon the White Tower. This is when Selucia's role as Truthspeaker will count big time. Nobody among the Seanchan can legally harm a Truthspeaker, either... even the Empress.


Valan Luca uniquely can approach an attacking Seanchan army, because he possesses a Letter written by the Daughter of Nine Moons giving him, her personal protection. Harm Valan Luca, and that person will face Fortuona's fury.


The "Theory of Instructions" and how the word "Instructions" is used, is one big key to the resolution of conflict at the White Tower, between Seanchan & Aes Sedai.

"Theory of Instructions" is directly or implied to be actively used by:

the Seanchan Empire-- Deathwatch Guards, Seekers & Tuon personally,
the White Tower-- Sitters, Egwene al'Vere, Cadsuane, Sarene et la,
the Kin,
Whitecloaks,
Perrin & Faile's armies & forces,
Andoran Queens' Guards & Birgitte personally,
Logain's Asha'man,
Rand al'Thor,
Verin Sedai,
Mierin,
Mat's Band of Red Hand (e.g. Vanin, Talmanes),
Tarabon King & Panarch (e.g. Amathera).
Lan & Nynaeve--Sea Folk marriage vows (KoD, Ch.20).




The whole theme, role of "Instructions" in the Wheel of Time series has been noticeably lacking within the discussions in the various WoT Forums. The "Theory of Instructions" is one key theme to be found in that future book, to be called "A Memory of Light".


Coming conflicts over "instructions", are not only between Mat Cauthon & Empress Fortuona, but also extended to the very relationships with Aes Sedai and the Asha'man.

Logain rode up between Rand and Bashere, his black gelding prancing. The horse was almost the exact shade of his coat and cloak. “The sun is almost straight overhead.” he said. “Time we go down?” There was only a mere hint of question in that. The man chafed at taking orders. He did not wait on a reply. “Sandomere!” he called loudly. “Narishma!”

Merise held Narishma by his sleeve for another moment of instructions before letting him ride over, which made Logain scowl. Sun-dark Narishma with his dark, belled braids looked years younger than Rand, though he was a few years older in truth. Sitting his dun as straight as a sword, he nodded to Logain as to an equal, producing another scowl.

Knife of Dreams, Chapter 27 “A Plain Wooden Box” – Rand point of view – with Logain, Bashere, Merise, Narishma, Sandomere & Ayako (White Ajah)

Who is Narishma do follow? Merise, because he is her Warder? Or Logain?
Why does Logain scowl at Narishma?
Because Narishma acts both as under the command of Merise, and yet, seeks to be an equal of Logain, as an Asha'man. Problem is Narishma, is not equal to Logain as long as he is under Merise's thumb. Narishma might not see this, however Logain surely sees this tension. Narishma, did not follow Logains "instructions" immediately either, but did follow Merise's.


Awesome, i dont think the WT will be attacked again though except for Trollocs and Last Battle type stuff

Have you read Fortuona point of view found in TofM book, Chapter "The Teaching Chamber"? Fortuona, Selucia believe the White Tower is to be doomed, by a planned Seanchan coming attack.

Terez
12-17-2010, 11:03 AM
Always figured it was his nephew, myself.
RJ said Min's viewings are always about the future.

GonzoTheGreat
12-17-2010, 11:56 AM
RJ said Min's viewings are always about the future.Perhaps it's Moiraine, who is gonna end up in Moridin's body.
How's that for an alternative body swap theory?

Terez
12-17-2010, 12:14 PM
So Moiraine is a horse after all?

arioch
12-17-2010, 02:05 PM
So Moiraine is a horse after all?

A pony.

The Immortal One
12-17-2010, 04:47 PM
I always figured it was his nephew too.

RJ said Min's viewings are always about the future.

And Min had a viewing about Lan; about a baby in a cradle and a sword.

I figured these viewings were only technically 'about the future' in that those events in their past dictated almost all of the person's actions in the present and future.

For example every action Lan takes can be traced back to the Fall of Malkier and his never-ending battle with the Shadow. And most actions Thom takes in the books - especially towards the three boys - can be traced back to the fate of his nephew.

Terez
12-17-2010, 05:52 PM
And Min had a viewing about Lan; about a baby in a cradle and a sword.
And?

I figured these viewings were only technically 'about the future' in that those events in their past dictated almost all of the person's actions in the present and future.
That's not what RJ said.

Weird Harold
12-17-2010, 06:27 PM
And Min had a viewing about Lan; about a baby in a cradle and a sword.

It was a question about that viewing in particular that prompted RJ's answer thanMin's viewings are ALWAYS about the future.

IOW, while there is definitely a baby with a sword in Lan's past -- him -- there must also be one in his future.

Belazamon
12-18-2010, 11:56 AM
Did we ever get an RJ answer about Min's viewing of Taim having "blood in his past and blood in his future?" Didn't see anything in the interview database.

Weird Harold
12-18-2010, 05:46 PM
Did we ever get an RJ answer about Min's viewing of Taim having "blood in his past and blood in his future?" Didn't see anything in the interview database.
Min had a similar viewing of Daved Hanlon: "bruised hues so dark they seemed nearly black. His hands would be red with more rapes and murders before he died."

Both appear to be reading who the person is in the present and extending it into the future. But RJ did play somehat loosely with the definitions of past and future. :D

The Angry Druid
12-18-2010, 10:08 PM
It was a question about that viewing in particular that prompted RJ's answer thanMin's viewings are ALWAYS about the future.

IOW, while there is definitely a baby with a sword in Lan's past -- him -- there must also be one in his future.

Which is why I'm always puzzled about the numerous predictions of Lan's demise. Unless Nynaeve isn't telling us something, and she'd be showing signs by now.

Weird Harold
12-18-2010, 10:38 PM
Which is why I'm always puzzled about the numerous predictions of Lan's demise. Unless Nynaeve isn't telling us something, and she'd be showing signs by now.
The Pattern does seem to workout a "happily ever after" for major players who don't fight their destiny too much. :D

Still about the only thing we can say is the LAn and Nyneave will find time for a quicky before his eventual gory demise.

FelixPax
12-19-2010, 04:07 AM
The Pattern does seem to workout a "happily ever after" for major players who don't fight their destiny too much. :D

Still about the only thing we can say is the LAn and Nyneave will find time for a quicky before his eventual gory demise.

A "quicky" before Lan dies? ;) Hmm...

Why do you believe that might occur again?


Feels as if, Lan will die soon...
So that Nynaeve in her sadness, grief, anger at Lan dying...
Can pull her short braid, smoothen her dress...
And go into the Great Unknown of a Mirror World...
To seek out...an alive Lan, an alive Malkier...

Nynaeve is her grief, and angry shall bring back the dead...
As they never died in her mind's eye, nor her heart...
They all exist alive, in a Mirror World...
Where the Dark One loses.

Time is meaningless, in a place where Time moves in any direction.

“I want to stay,” she said softly. “I want to stay with you.” When she opened her eyes, the arch was gone . . . come but once. “No. No!”

Lan turned her to face him. “What troubles you? You must tell me if I’m to help.”

“This is not real.”

“Not real? Before I met you, I thought nothing except the sword was real. Look around you, Nynaeve. It is real. Whatever you want to be real, we can make real together, you and I.”

The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 23 "The Testing" - Nynaeve point of view

Time is meaningless, which even Birgitte claims much to Rand al'Thor at Falme:

“My name is Rand al’Thor,” he snapped. “You have to hurry. There isn’t much time.”

“Time?” Birgitte said, smiling. “We have all of time.”

The Great Hunt, Chapter 47 "The Grave Is No Bar to My Call" - Rand al'Thor point of view

Time and Space are flexible in Mirror Worlds... so one can never die completely.

Perhaps Nynaeve and Lan might have a quicky in a Mirror World, though? :)

Weird Harold
12-19-2010, 04:16 AM
A "quicky" before Lan dies? ;) Hmm...

Why do you believe that might occur again?

I don't. I just don't believe that Min's view of "a babe with a sword and seven towers" means Lan can't die. It means Lan can't die until his Heir is conceived -- and that does not necessarily mean Nyneave will be/IS the mother.

morat'corlm
12-19-2010, 09:16 AM
that does not necessarily mean Nyneave will be/IS the mother.I love it. So is Myrelle going to be turned in that scenario or not? :D

Landro
12-19-2010, 10:02 AM
Nyneave already has had a lot of "quality time" with Lan. Who says she isn't pregnant already?

morat'corlm
12-19-2010, 10:55 AM
It's about 80 days between her last time with Lan and her last POV in TOM. She wouldn't be showing yet, but as a trained healer she couldn't have managed not to notice. Particularly with the trouble pregnancy causes with the One Power; for comparison, Elayne started having trouble channeling within a month.

FelixPax
12-21-2010, 10:26 AM
I don't. I just don't believe that Min's view of "a babe with a sword and seven towers" means Lan can't die.

Is dying in the Wheel of Time series, simply abet another painful form of becoming something else? A way of moving, from one space to another?

Henceforth, a lower case form of "death", and a higher case form of "Death"....

Yes, Lan can die... in a lower case form sense... perhaps, even in a higher case form...

However, as long as a memory of Lan exists within Nynaeve's mind, her soul... Lan will not be dead. Why? Mirror Worlds.


Robert Jordan could even decide to have Lan balefired in AMoL book... and I'd still believe Lan could return from the dead again. Why? Mirror Worlds, and the Power of Dreaming. Nynaeve will not allow Lan to die....


It means Lan can't die until his Heir is conceived -- and that does not necessarily mean Nyneave will be/IS the mother.

I leave open the possibility of Lan's heir being conceived, after the Last Battle...
Just as I leave the same possibility open, for Aviendha's future four children conceived with a re-born Rand al'Thor soul....

Each can and perhaps will die soon... Lan. Rand.
Yet each will live again...

And forever in the case of Rand's soul.
Thus, so proclaims one section of the Dark Prophecy.

Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying, one to life eternal.

Insane Ducky
12-21-2010, 04:11 PM
Didn't Perrin try the whole resurrection of Hopper in the World of Dreams and have it fail miserably?