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Daekyras
12-14-2010, 03:54 AM
I was doing a quick re-read of ToM and got to the section involving portal stones. It made me question some things:

Portal stones- access to alternate/mirror worlds.
They also allow travel across vast distances in short periods of time(assuming you don't feck it up cough* Rand cough*:rolleyes:).

We now know Trollocs can use them.

Travelling- Bend a whole in space/time so that two places can exist in the same space. Step through the gateway you created.

Trollocs can NOT use them.

Skimming- create a doorway to another place and make a platform(don't fall off!:p) and the platforms move to your destination. Not as fast as travelling but significantly faster than walking.

Trollocs, presumably, can NOT use them. Stupid gates.

The ways- See, this is my question. I always thought the ways existed in the same place as people skimmed. A kind of constant path between two places but that begs the question- when people have skimmed to areas that have a way gate(Rand has done so at least once), why did they not see the way bridges and paths? What are the ways?

Trollocs can use them. How? Why can they pass through a Waygate but not a Gateway? (see what I did there?:))

And one final question: True Power travelling- Can Ishy transport trollocs this way? As Dark one constructs(shadowspawn) would they die passing through something created with his own power?

This has undoubtedly come up before(they've been a feature since book one after all) but would like to hear other peoples ideas here. Sorry for any annoyance to My Hero for not looking at her excellent interview database before posting:o

Weird Harold
12-14-2010, 05:43 AM
Skimming- create a doorway to another place and make a platform(don't fall off!:p) and the platforms move to your destination.

The ways- See, this is my question. I always thought the ways existed in the same place as people skimmed. A kind of constant path between two places but that begs the question- when people have skimmed to areas that have a way gate(Rand has done so at least once), why did they not see the way bridges and paths? What are the ways?

I think you're understanding of the Ways is fairly accurate. IIRC, There is only one time that we've seen two platforms in the Skimming Space, and that is Rand's pursuit of Asmodean to Rhuidean. That was an anomalous situation. I don't recall if it is in the books or in an interview, but thre is a statement around to the effect of, "If two people open skimming gates side by side at the same time, they will not see each other in the skimming space and may or may not arrive at the same destination at the same time."

I tend to think that phenomenon is a matter of phase matching. Everything in the Skimming Space is functioning at its own unique frequency. Only by matching frequencies exactly will one skimmer be visible to another and only a very few people with a talent for gateways -- like LTT --- can match phases that closely.

Glen
12-14-2010, 07:52 AM
I think I have the answer of why Trollocs can't travel through gateways, but can use waygates and travel by portal stones.

Recent speculation is that Travelling works by essentially creating two gateways into T'A'R, and making the locations of those two gateways identical. So why would this explain Trollocs?

Do Trollocs have souls? I'm betting that they don't. And if they don't, is it possible that things that lack souls cannot be alive in T'A'R? Perhaps trollocs "die" upon entering T'A'R due to the lack of a soul meaning that they revert to their non-animated state, and this effect is true irrespective of how long they are in T'A'R. As gateways would technically involve an infinitesimal time spent in T'A'R, the trollocs would die on passing through one.

Now that I think of it, though, it does have an interesting secondary implication, if true, since the Gholam does pass through a Skimming gateway without dying in ToM. This would suggest that Gholams do have souls.

Weird Harold
12-14-2010, 08:21 AM
Do Trollocs have souls? I'm betting that they don't.

You'd lose.

Per RJ, Trollocs have souls. They are small, ugly twisted things hardly worth bothering with, but they do have souls. -- OWTTE I don't recall if that was specifc to Trollocs or covered all shadowspawn, but it definitely covered Trollocs

I believe that was the same answer that explained Grey men do NOT have souls and that "the DO eats them" is "a convenient fiction" as to why grey men can function without souls.

Glen
12-14-2010, 09:07 AM
You'd lose.

Per RJ, Trollocs have souls. They are small, ugly twisted things hardly worth bothering with, but they do have souls. -- OWTTE I don't recall if that was specifc to Trollocs or covered all shadowspawn, but it definitely covered Trollocs

I believe that was the same answer that explained Grey men do NOT have souls and that "the DO eats them" is "a convenient fiction" as to why grey men can function without souls.

See, this is the difficulty in having so much information gained from RJ through interviews - unless you've kept close attention to it all, you'll miss points, whereas most people who read the books can remember most of what happens in them.

Anyway, the exact description, now that I've looked into it, is "Though frankly, a Trolloc's soul is such a pitiful thing, it hardly seems worth calling a soul." He mentions shadowspawn, and says that other shadowspawn do have souls... but I take this to mean that not all shadowspawn are soulless other than Trollocs - there are others with souls.

Perhaps one must have a strong, proper soul in order to handle a trip through T'A'R, and a Trolloc soul is too twisted and "pitiful" to survive it - if entering T'A'R makes you lose a small part of yourself (read: your soul), and Trollocs only have the tiniest sliver of a soul to begin with, perhaps they lose all of it.

EDIT: Or I could just be wrong. I'm not arrogant enough to believe that my speculation is absolute truth.

Weird Harold
12-14-2010, 09:21 AM
See, this is the difficulty in having so much information gained from RJ through interviews - unless you've kept close attention to it all, you'll miss points, whereas most people who read the books can remember most of what happens in them.

Anyway, the exact description, now that I've looked into it, is "Though frankly, a Trolloc's soul is such a pitiful thing, it hardly seems worth calling a soul." He mentions shadowspawn, and says that other shadowspawn do have souls... but I take this to mean that not all shadowspawn are soulless other than Trollocs - there are others with souls.

Perhaps one must have a strong, proper soul in order to handle a trip through T'A'R, and a Trolloc soul is too twisted and "pitiful" to survive it - if entering T'A'R makes you lose a small part of yourself (read: your soul), and Trollocs only have the tiniest sliver of a soul to begin with, perhaps they lose all of it.

EDIT: Or I could just be wrong. I'm not arrogant enough to believe that my speculation is absolute truth.
I've always assumed unless otherwise stated, every animate creature in the WOT has a soul.

According to LTT when he introduiced Deathgates, Shadowspawn can't survive passage through a gateway. Per Brandon, the Gholam could pass through a gateway, but only because it took longer for the Gholam to die -- perhaps the Gholam has the strongest soul of known shadowspawn, or perhaps it is like a grey man and has no soul at all?

Deathgates are one of the late-coming features of the WOT that doesn't seem to have a deduceable explanation for how/why they work. (the ones that puree Trollocs are pretty easy to understand, it's the just tranport a shadowspawn and it dies part that doesn't make sense.

WinespringBrother
12-14-2010, 09:48 AM
We know Shadowspawn are constructs, and that Gholams are more perfected than Trollocs. Perhaps Trollocs are made of shoddy materials, and fall apart (in a manner of speaking) like the alien dog that died when it got split into its good and bad selves on ST:TOS, and they tried to combine them with the transporter.

Or maybe Gateways don't have a protective buffer but the Ways and Portal Stones do.

a dragonburned fool
12-14-2010, 10:07 AM
Maybe it has something to do with general limitations of DO touching the Pattern. I mean, DO touches it, and that has very lastin effects, but the connection is somewhat imperfect, not completely fitting. Like Bubbles of Evil, that cause a lot of effect on the reality, but if somebody breaks tehir scenario, tehy stop (like Perrin driving the axe in the wood in Tear Stone or Faile bringing the weapons coming alive in touch with the earth. So the Bubble of Evil is anchored with a part of the Pattern, but imperfectly.

So there may be something like that inside the shadowspawn. As Trollocs can be sensed by channelers as dirty presence, they are actually unseparable from this part. This something must be responsible for whatever makes Fades able to travel their way, because Fades are trowbacks of Trollok stock. Fades are said to be slightly out of phase with space and time - this must be also a developement of the dark bit in the Trollocs.

And now back to the Travelling gateways. Male Travelling is folding and accurately interlinking two places in the pattern. Female Travelling involves absolutely identical matrices of both locations. In both cases it means a very precise working with anchoring of people to different places. And shadowspawn have some problems with this same anchoring in the first place, due to their dark bit, the same bit responsible for the Fade anomalies. So the Travelling or Skimming gateway might be to a strong stress for the anchoring of the dark bit to the Pattern, and it could just burst.

Portal stones and Ways are stronger and standing devices. I suppose they can bind the two locations much stronger, so that the dark bit's anchoring could survive it.

CreationEdge
12-15-2010, 03:47 PM
I wonder, can a Trolloc live through a True Power made Gateway? I doubt it, but still a fun question.


Could Shadowspawn dying from gateways have anything to do with being required to exist in more than one "place" at the same time?

At what point does it kill them? Is it once their ENTIRE body goes through? Their heart? Their brain? Or their pitiful soul?

Sodas
12-16-2010, 12:24 AM
Close glen. But not because of Souls, but because of the overall series and how Shadowpawn have never really been seen either in the flesh or Dreaming themselves in. The Shadowspawn were always a result of a Nightmare or some such. So T'A'R seems a natural barrier to Shadowspawn.

My theory has been that the Doorways themselves are small, infinitely small slivers of T'A'R connecting the two places together.

:D

GonzoTheGreat
12-16-2010, 06:26 AM
But Trollocs can dream, and based on a discussion between Ishamael and Lanfear (in TDR), we have a very strong suggestion that Trollocs can enter TAR in that way too. To counter that suggestion we would have to have more than a mere theory based upon speculation.

Sodas
12-16-2010, 07:16 PM
A quote would help

morat'corlm
12-16-2010, 07:26 PM
An ornate silver throne appeared behind her, and she sat, carefully arranging her silken skirts. “You make free use of my domain,” she said.

“Your domain?” Ba’alzamon said. “You claim it yours, then? Do you no longer serve the Great Lord of the Dark?” The darkness around him thickened for an instant, seemed to boil.

“I serve,” she said quickly. “I have served the Lord of the Twilight long. Long did I lie imprisoned for my service, in an endless, dreamless sleep. Only Gray Men and Myrddraal are denied dreams. Even Trollocs can dream. Dreams were always mine, to use and walk. Now I am free again, and I will use what is mine.”The distinction between "dreams" and "the World of Dreams" seems ambiguous at this point. I don't think it's an indication that Trollocs can enter TAR like a Dreamer can.

Mort
12-16-2010, 09:14 PM
My guess lies close to WSB's, that constructs can't survive passing outside the pattern, which travelling seems to be based upon.

The ways and portal stones are not going outside the pattern to do it's business. In-pattern traveling so to speak. They Ways at least I think makes use of an alternative world(s), within the pattern, that works as a shortcut.

According to WH, BS said Gholams don't die passing a gateway because they survive better. They could still be constructs but are just sturdier or whatever.

There seems to be a lot of resemblence between Skimming and traveling through a waygate. Some traveling has to be done to get to where you are going, it's not like Traveling which brings you right to the spot you want. We know they learned Traveling (and I guess also Skimming) through studying the Portal Stones. Not sure if they included Skimming along with "shadowspawn can't pass through gateways" statement.

Thinking if the Waygates are just an advanced "platform" like in Skimming that has been grown (as they call making the Ways) and exists by itself (or by weave more likely). Would mean Skimming is traveling while inside the pattern.

I mean, the ideas are built on other ideas. In order of existence: Portal Stone (alternative worlds/realities) -> Traveling/Skimming (outside/inside pattern traveling) -> Waygate

Did we ever establish if the large black space while Skimming is inside or outside the pattern?

Hey, maybe "magic" is the answer. Can't dispute that. Thank you very much, Fantasy.

Okay, my very incoherently and wine-induced post has come to it's end. Dissemble and discredit. ;)

Weird Harold
12-16-2010, 09:27 PM
The distinction between "dreams" and "the World of Dreams" seems ambiguous at this point. I don't think it's an indication that Trollocs can enter TAR like a Dreamer can.

There is the "Gap of Infinity" that exists between T'A'R and the waking world, where ordinary dreams are found. I suspect that Trollocs Dreams just aren't strong enough to get even very far into the GOI, let alone bubble all the way into T'A'R.

I thought I remember that the Blight and Shayol Ghul especially, were on the list of places you can't go in T'A'R -- along with Rhuidean and Ogier Stedding -- but I can't find the reference quickly. It just might be becasue my memory is faulty and it does not exist. :rolleyes:

Weird Harold
12-16-2010, 09:32 PM
You missed a very important word in that signing report:

According to WH, BS said Gholams don't die [IMMEDIATELY]passing a gateway because they survive better. They could still be constructs but are just sturdier or whatever.

The Gholam IS a construct and passing through a gateway WILL kill it -- eventually.

Mort
12-16-2010, 09:44 PM
You missed a very important word in that signing report:



The Gholam IS a construct and passing through a gateway WILL kill it -- eventually.

Yeah, that was what I was getting at, somehow. Thanks.

Now sleep.

GonzoTheGreat
12-17-2010, 06:09 AM
The distinction between "dreams" and "the World of Dreams" seems ambiguous at this point. I don't think it's an indication that Trollocs can enter TAR like a Dreamer can.No, but they might very well now and then reach TAR for short periods, just as ordinary humans do.

Sodas
12-17-2010, 03:21 PM
But Trollocs can dream, and based on a discussion between Ishamael and Lanfear (in TDR), we have a very strong suggestion that Trollocs can enter TAR in that way too. To counter that suggestion we would have to have more than a mere theory based upon speculation.

I didn't get that from the quote at all. I see that they can Dream, which we already knew. But there is no real indication they can enter TAR itself like a Dreamer could(Lanfear).

Sukoto
12-17-2010, 03:30 PM
Sorry for any annoyance to My Hero for not looking at her excellent interview database before posting:o
Surgeon General's Warning: Licking backsides may result in poor health.

Daekyras
12-18-2010, 02:29 PM
Surgeon General's Warning: Licking backsides may result in poor health.

He should really put the warning on the packet....

GonzoTheGreat
12-19-2010, 05:09 AM
I didn't get that from the quote at all. I see that they can Dream, which we already knew. But there is no real indication they can enter TAR itself like a Dreamer could(Lanfear).No, there isn't. But there is at least the suggestion that they can reach TAR in the same way that ordinary people do: for very short periods, and without any kind of control at all.

Sodas
12-20-2010, 04:08 AM
No, there isn't. But there is at least the suggestion that they can reach TAR in the same way that ordinary people do: for very short periods, and without any kind of control at all.

Suggestion?

The quote says that Trollocs can dream. A dream is not the same as reaching TAR.

Sorry Gonzo.

Madgod
12-20-2010, 09:16 PM
Suggestion?

The quote says that Trollocs can dream. A dream is not the same as reaching TAR.


Isn't it heavily implied by someone, the Wise Ones I think, that if someone can dream they can temporarily "jump" into TAR and spend a couple seconds there before disappearing again? If thats the case then they would be essentially like a normal human in regards to TAR. At least, thats the way I always understood things.

Weird Harold
12-20-2010, 10:44 PM
Isn't it heavily implied by someone, the Wise Ones I think, that if someone can dream they can temporarily "jump" into TAR and spend a couple seconds there before disappearing again? If thats the case then they would be essentially like a normal human in regards to TAR. At least, thats the way I always understood things.
I'm not sure there is any direct in character explanation of why some ordinary people pop into T'A'R for a few moments or a few minutes -- In almost all of Egwene's first few trips to T'A'R using the Twisted Ring she encounters "an ordinary person whose dreams touched T'A'R. Much later, they even encounter Elaida in T'A'R for just a moment or two.

While there is no explanation given for why some ordinary people do and others do not, but given other things we know about T'A'R I would speculate that thee is more energy, passion, strength, or Soul to those particular dreams. If that last Item has any validity, then a trolloc's weak and/or shriveled soul might not have enough presence, strength, passion, to lift Trolloc dreams clear across the Gap Of Infinity.

In Short, Trollocs could reach T'A'R if they could generate enough Soul or dream passionately but they likely can't and probably don't. I don't think Trollocs have enough imagination to dream that strongly except for very rare individuals, like Narg -- Narg could have reached T'A'R, I'm sure.

Sodas
12-21-2010, 03:59 AM
Isn't it heavily implied by someone, the Wise Ones I think, that if someone can dream they can temporarily "jump" into TAR and spend a couple seconds there before disappearing again? If thats the case then they would be essentially like a normal human in regards to TAR. At least, thats the way I always understood things.

Two problems

1. They aren't human.
2. They generally live in the Blight - so on the off chance they could have a strong dream, it's happening in a place with no TAR

More importantly, TAR isn't nuetral like the GoI. It's an extraordinary place that houses the Heroes of the Horn between incarnations (it's Vahalla) and where wolves, opponents of the Dark One, reside.

Couple that with the question of if Shadowspawn could walk TAR in the flesh, why haven't they done so? Why only portal stones and waygates? But not Traveling or TAR.

Weird Harold
12-21-2010, 05:22 AM
2. They generally live in the Blight - so on the off chance they could have a strong dream, it's happening in a place with no TAR

I thought that too, but couldn't find the reference. You happen to know where it is? A cursory search didn't turn one up , although I did find one list of what isn't accessible from T'A'R and the Blight wasn't on it.

CreationEdge
12-21-2010, 07:59 AM
I'm not sure what book it's in, but it actually references not being able to enter the Blight while in the Dreamworld. That's the one I remember. I don't think it says TAR doesn't exist in the Blight, only that you can't go to it from TAR.


(Because I always wondered... Wouldn't Mor/Ishy's dreams that Rand visits be somewhere "in the blight"?)

Madgod
12-21-2010, 10:04 AM
I thought that too, but couldn't find the reference. You happen to know where it is? A cursory search didn't turn one up , although I did find one list of what isn't accessible from T'A'R and the Blight wasn't on it.

In a Q&A session with RJ in his CoS book tour:
"Blight: you can not enter it from Tel'aran'rhiod because it is apart from NORMAL UNIVERSE and can not be touched. The Blight is not part of the normal universe.

Ask about the Blight. If it is not reflected in Tel'aran'rhiod, why does the Great Lord of the Dark have so much power over Tel'aran'rhiod, the Wheel and reincarnation? see above."

All this answer really does is explain why we haven't seen any shadowspawn in TAR if they are able to randomly appear there, since most shadowspawn live in the blight.

Weird Harold
12-21-2010, 06:55 PM
In a Q&A session with RJ in his CoS book tour:
"Blight: you can not enter it from Tel'aran'rhiod because it is apart from NORMAL UNIVERSE and can not be touched. The Blight is not part of the normal

Thanks.

I thought there was an in-book reference, but that will do.