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1Powerslave
12-18-2010, 08:21 AM
Well, the angreal she now keeps i already given. That was one of her wishes. A wish that most likely was done after she had gotten what she really wanted. It is worded like that IIRC, like the angreal was an after thought, since she knew she couldn't make any wish that would set her free.

What Moiraine really wants though, is to continue her Cause, to help the Dragon win the last battle. Her wishes was obviously geared towards this goal.

I believe she wished for information the information needed to win the Last Battle. She might have gotten a tricky fulfillment of that wish back. Perhaps rendering the information useless and prompting another more precise wish.

The Eelfinn are known to fill people's heads with memories. I think they did this with Moiraine as well. Given Moiraine's likely wishes, and given what memories the Finns had at their disposal at the time, I think Moiraine's head was filled with Lanfear's memories. Or enough of them to be useful/essential for winning the last battle. Sealing the bore most likely.

Any other ideas?

Weird Harold
12-18-2010, 08:30 AM
The Eelfinn are known to fill people's heads with memories. I think they did this with Moiraine as well. Given Moiraine's likely wishes, and given what memories the Finns had at their disposal at the time, I think Moiraine's head was filled with Lanfear's memories. Or enough of them to be useful/essential for winning the last battle. Sealing the bore most likely.

Any other ideas?

Interesting idea. Did Moiriane have any holes in her memories to be filled?

Would Moiriane have enough cool to hold one wish in reserve if Thom & Co didn't show up before she was completely drained??

Shob
12-18-2010, 09:26 AM
The Eelfinn are known to fill people's heads with memories.

Any other ideas?

Not really. They filled Mat`s head with memories, because he specifically asked them for that. It was one of his wishes.

1Powerslave
12-18-2010, 12:23 PM
Not really. They filled Mat`s head with memories, because he specifically asked them for that. It was one of his wishes.
My point was just that we know they have done it before and they can do it again. I also proposed that Moiraine would make a wish that would prompt a similar filling of memories as Mat got, with at least the relevant memories from Lanfear.

1Powerslave
12-18-2010, 12:37 PM
Interesting idea. Did Moiriane have any holes in her memories to be filled?

Would Moiriane have enough cool to hold one wish in reserve if Thom & Co didn't show up before she was completely drained??
I don't think holes in her memory are necessary in order to have "room" for more memories. Soul, thread or brain as a storage device, infinite or not, neither would so full as to not accept new memories being formed I would think.

Moiraine implied that she had made her three wishes and that she knew that no matter how she made them she would be completely dependent on the success of Mat's rescue.


"The brain is just a FIFO queue with priority. The priority being most subjective."

ShadowbaneX
12-18-2010, 12:58 PM
I'm not exactly sure that Moiraine wished for her memories to be filled a la Mat, but it does make a fair amount of sense for her to have some new knowledge gained, given Callandor's involvement in what is to come. Rand is going to need a circle, Nynaeve is one, and there's a good deal of logic in Moiraine being the second. Given Moiraine's current lack of ability with the Power, it only makes sense for her to be there in a Melding/Guiding/Leading sort of sense.

Hummm, I wonder. If Nynaeve has control of the Callandor circle for a little while, would she use that to try to remove the the Taint from Rand? She couldn't do it on her own in Tear, but with Rand holding Callendor...?

Or does this come into the "you cannot Heal yourself" territory?

1Powerslave
12-18-2010, 01:21 PM
Min's wording "he will fail without a woman dead and gone" does suggest direct involvement for said woman. It could just be how the viewing presented it to Min, i.e. the woman is essential for her knowledge not for her actions, but a more direct role feels better.

A problem with a direct role such as leading the circle is where that leaves the Dragon Reborn's role in sealing the Bore; just powering Callandor?

ShadowbaneX
12-18-2010, 01:43 PM
Rand himself said in the last book, after the battle of Maradon that he is there to organize people for the Last Battle, not fight it for them. Same thing could be said in this case, Rand is to set things up and then be the power behind the encounter.

Or it might be that the Sealing of the Bore has nothing to do with the Power and Callandor, and it's purpose will just be to get Rand and his force through to the final show down.

However it does play out, it makes perfect sense for Moiraine to have learned a few things from the *'Finns if she is going to be the second with Nynaeve in Rand's Callandor circle.

Weird Harold
12-18-2010, 06:35 PM
I don't think holes in her memory are necessary in order to have "room" for more memories. Soul, thread or brain as a storage device, infinite or not, neither would so full as to not accept new memories being formed I would think.

I mention the holes in Mat's memories mostly because if he hadn't HAD those holes, he wouldn't have asked for them to be filled. Morraine may have gotten useful knowledge, but I don't think it was in the form of Lanfear's memories.

So...

The Angreal, Knowledge, and what else?

1Powerslave
12-18-2010, 07:14 PM
I mention the holes in Mat's memories mostly because if he hadn't HAD those holes, he wouldn't have asked for them to be filled. Morraine may have gotten useful knowledge, but I don't think it was in the form of Lanfear's memories.

So...

The Angreal, Knowledge, and what else?
Remember that the Aelfinn, not the Eelfinn, are those that gives information by answering questions. How do you propose that the Eelfinn give information and knowledge without doing just what the Aelfinn does? Or are you just saying that the important knowledge will be in the form of someone elses memories other than Lanfear?

Moiraine is smart. Just as Rand figured out that Mat knows battles now all of a sudden. Moiraine, being smarter and more calculating than Rand might have figured out just how Mat knew stuff about battles.

Also, Moiraine had some knowledge of what would happen in Finnland from her own questions to the Aelfinn and the Rings ter'angreal in Rhuidean. So she might have had very good intel on how to make very precise wishes leading to her gaining memories vital for the last battle.

So. No need for holes, really. :)

Weird Harold
12-18-2010, 07:38 PM
How do you propose that the Eelfinn give information and knowledge without doing just what the Aelfinn does? Or are you just saying that the important knowledge will be in the form of someone elses memories other than Lanfear

What I'm suggesting is that Knowledge is separate from the memory of acquiring that knowledge -- Knowledge is also not a cryptic answer that has to be decoded, such as the Aelfinn provide.

Knowledge is also remembered -- a memory without a personality; like knowledge gained from a book. Moiriane didn't carry any books out of the Tower with her, so any knowledge had to be inside her, but if she is as smart as you give her credit for she got it without the identity crisis that Rand and Mat experienced from having other people's memories in their head.
The mechanism of inserting Knowledge into Moiriane's head would be the same as inserting Memories but the content is different.

Ideally, What she got was the Eelfinn equivalent of an Education Pill full of facts and figures rather than a "personality graft."

The Angry Druid
12-18-2010, 11:04 PM
A quick reminder of a point that often seems to get lost in these "wishes" threads.

It is likely that the "wishes" need to deal with the person who makes the wish. As would any knowledge.

In TDR, Moiraine tells the girls, who then tell Mat, that the Finns read the thread of a person's life, and therefore the questions must deal with that own person's life for them to get the true answers. We know that all the questions asked (Mat, Rand, Mo), that we know of, do deal with the person's own life.

Now, we don't know for sure that this restriction applies to the wishes, but all of Mat's did deal with his own life. HE wanted to have the memories in his head filled. HE wanted to be free of Aes Sedai. And HE wanted a way out. All stuff to do with Mat Cauthon.

It seems to me that requests for extraneous tidbits of knowledge or power that don't have to do with the requester's thread would likely be denied. Of course, one might be able to stretch that for any bit on knowledge, since once known, then it does deal with the person themselves.

Still, when considering the wishes, there are likely limits.

Res_Ipsa
12-19-2010, 02:02 AM
I unequivocally know what her other two wishes were.



1. A fox fur stole


2. Snakeskin slippers

ZaderGru
12-19-2010, 04:10 AM
Just like Mat, Moiraine's wishes may not have been all encompassing as you believe.

Who the angreal belongs to could be in dispute.
It may be the Angreal belongs to Thom, Mat or Moiraine.

Moiraine states she asked for it as one of her wishes, and assumming she is still bound by the 3 oaths, we have no reason to disbelieve her.

Just prior to Mat making his bargin Thom takes the Angreal off Moiraine's wrist,puts it in his pocket, and comments that it looks like a Ter'Angreal of some sort.

"It is an angreal" a voice proclaimed. "Strong enough to be nearly sa'angreal. It can be part of her price, should you wish to pay it."

So the Eelfinn believed they still could use it as a bargining chip.

Now while Mat did not include the angreal in his bargin. His words were "We take her" "We get out"
As Mat paid the price of his bargin, it could be argued, that the angreal is Mats.

If it was not part of the bargin, Thom was the one to carry the angeal out of the Tower, so he could also have some claims on it.

Now I know these points are moot because I believe both Mat and Thom accept the angreal is Moiraines.
My original point though is valid.

Just like Mat specifing only the foxes could not harm them, Moiraine may have only asked for the angreal, not specifing that angreal would still be hers when she left the tower.

1Powerslave
12-19-2010, 06:36 AM
It is likely that the "wishes" need to deal with the person who makes the wish. As would any knowledge.
I don't know if we need to treat the Aelfinn reading of a thread to answer question about a person's future and the Eelfinn fulfillment of wishes exactly the same, in regards to their limits to the person asking or wishing. I'm not sure we have had a limit like the one for Questions put on the Wishes. Mat gets an Ashandarei, Moiraine gets an angreal, how are they tied to them personally?

And are Mat's memories really tied to him personally?
I'm not sure Mat's memories are only from his past lives, i.e. belonging to his thread in the Pattern. I seem to recall Mat having memories from two different persons at the same battle..? And I think Mat have too many memories from different persons to think that he has been reincarnated that often.

Now, we don't know for sure that this restriction applies to the wishes, but all of Mat's did deal with his own life. HE wanted to have the memories in his head filled. HE wanted to be free of Aes Sedai. And HE wanted a way out. All stuff to do with Mat Cauthon.

It seems to me that requests for extraneous tidbits of knowledge or power that don't have to do with the requester's thread would likely be denied. Of course, one might be able to stretch that for any bit on knowledge, since once known, then it does deal with the person themselves.
Moiraine really wants to gain the knowledge to win the last battle, SHE wants it! Or am I misunderstanding your point?

Moiraine, as per Min's viewing, is destined to play a vital role in the last battle. This is what got me unto to the track that she'd need Lanfear's memories, inorder to be that important for the Last Battle.

Weird Harold
12-19-2010, 06:55 AM
And are Mat's memories really tied to him personally?


They're tied to his destiny, not necessarily to his ancestry or soul. The memories given to him are the equivalent of a four year military academy or extended military apprenticeship.

I'm not sure Mat's memories are only from his past lives, i.e. belonging to his thread in the Pattern.

None of them are from HIS past lives -- per RJ, they're from "adventurers" who visited the *finn. A fair percentage are Manetherin simply because the Tower of Ghenjei was so close to Manetherin. Any of those might be one of Mat's ancestors or even a past incarnation of his soul, but it would be by chance that it was included rather than the prior connection to Mat.

I think it is the WOT FAQ that has a full study of where and when the memories encompass.

CreationEdge
12-19-2010, 08:43 AM
I think we need to remember just how much Moiraine already knew before she was captured. She obviously knew a LOT about the prophecies, the Dragon, Rand, etc. Her final letter to Rand pretty much said she knew about Asmodean, for instance. She was very astute, and had a lot of experience. And she'd already asked her 3 questions in the Tear Doorway.

She spent very little time in the Tower after becoming Aes Sedai. Where she went and what she learned on her quest for the Dragon Reborn can only be guessed at.


But, we know that Rand used his questions very carefully, and he didn't have quite as much knowledge as Moiraine. Yet he used the questions well, and I think it's safe to assume Moiraine would have, too.


Whether she made requests from Ael/Eelfinn doesn't necessarily matter, by the way. Because she entered Finnland in a way that was outside of the treaty, she could still get more requests from either, she just wasn't guaranteed the safety the treaty provides. It doesn't matter which door she came in through. She wasn't supposed to enter with another person like that. (I'm supposing her. It's only my guess, but I imagine that if she'd entered under the treaty then they wouldn't have been holding her captive.)

Example:
Matt came back in, outside of the treaty, and made another bargain (to get Moiraine). He'd already made at least 3 with each. In fact, we know he'd made his 3 requests, but he actually got more than 3 questions answered. Ta'veren effect, sure, but it established it was possible to get more than 3 questions answered.

morat'corlm
12-19-2010, 09:08 AM
Because she entered Finnland in a way that was outside of the treaty, she could still get more requests from either, she just wasn't guaranteed the safety the treaty provides. It doesn't matter which door she came in through. She wasn't supposed to enter with another person like that. (I'm supposing her. It's only my guess, but I imagine that if she'd entered under the treaty then they wouldn't have been holding her captive.)I'm not sure about this at all. She entered by the doorway, without iron, instruments of music, or fire; I don't see why the treaty wouldn't hold unless it was nullified by the destruction of the doorway. The Eelfinn require a wish to be spent on providing a way out; it seems likely that given the foreknowledge of her rescue, she would decline to make that wish and spend it on something else.

CreationEdge
12-19-2010, 09:31 AM
Then why would Lanfear have been captured as well?

Why wouldn't SHE have used one to get out? She knew better.


But they were both captured, and the door melted.

morat'corlm
12-19-2010, 09:42 AM
Why wouldn't SHE have used one to get out? She knew better.Did she? She may not have known enough about the Finns. Or not known about Ghenjei and assumed the way back had been destroyed. Or, like Mat, forgotten how to phrase the request. Or they took her to the room corresponding to Ghenjei but, lacking something like the ashandarei, she could not make a portal for herself, and was trapped.

Besides, your path leads to her not getting anything from the Eelfinn at all, which leads to the question: so what's she needed for at Tarmon Gai'don then?

looqas
12-19-2010, 04:43 PM
What I was wondering at the time of reading was that why angreal? Why not go all the way to sa'angreal?

Rand al'Fain
12-19-2010, 04:52 PM
What I was wondering at the time of reading was that why angreal? Why not go all the way to sa'angreal?
Maybe because the Finn people didn't have any and only had angreal?

Weird Harold
12-19-2010, 08:48 PM
What I was wondering at the time of reading was that why angreal? Why not go all the way to sa'angreal?
For starters, Moiriane and Lanfear brought that particular ivory bracelet angreal into *Finnland with them -- Moiraine may have just asked that conflicting claims to ownership be resolved in her favor.

Whether Moiraine knew enough to know that the Eelfinn may have even stronger angreal/sa'angreal, she definitely knew that particular angreal was available.

CreationEdge
12-19-2010, 09:07 PM
Besides, your path leads to her not getting anything from the Eelfinn at all, which leads to the question: so what's she needed for at Tarmon Gai'don then?



Knowledge. She knows things that no one else does. But, we don't know that she learned them while captured. She could have got those answers from the Tear Doorway. Or the Rhuidean Arches.

Uno
12-19-2010, 11:10 PM
Maybe this is a bit of a daft question, but doesn't Mat remember dying in battle? Are the foxy chaps able to get hold of memories generated after the person entered their domain? I suppose they could be, given that Mat thought they could read his mind, but if they have that kind of access, why try to prevent people from leaving, as they'd have a regular home-delivery service of emotions during the life times of old guests?

Res_Ipsa
12-19-2010, 11:25 PM
I would wager that adventure seekers since time immemorial have ventured into the ToG or the red twisted doorway and met with a violent end, channelers among them. In a different age their knowledge could even have been bought with supplicants presenting fabulous treasures.

CreationEdge
12-20-2010, 09:32 AM
Maybe this is a bit of a daft question, but doesn't Mat remember dying in battle? Are the foxy chaps able to get hold of memories generated after the person entered their domain? I suppose they could be, given that Mat thought they could read his mind, but if they have that kind of access, why try to prevent people from leaving, as they'd have a regular home-delivery service of emotions during the life times of old guests?


How else will they get those vests made of skin?

Uno
12-20-2010, 12:18 PM
How else will they get those vests made of skin?

Ah, some misunderstanding due to a typo here. What I meant was whether they can get memories generated after person left--not entered--their domains. They'd sort of have to be able to, if Mat remembers dying, which I'm rather sure he does. This is assuming that the memories are from old visitors, of course.

CreationEdge
12-20-2010, 12:32 PM
Right. I think that's a given. Mat figures that the *finn are in his head (once he figures out that he's not seeing his past lives, but other mens')

Yes, Mat remembers dying. Because some of the men who went into the ToG came out, lived, and then eventually died. So, apparently once you make a deal with a *finn they get a kind of memory link with the individual.

That's how Mat figures they're probably still in his head (and know he's coming into the Tower to rescue Moiraine.) Because if those men died in battle or however, how would the *finn have known and been able to put those memories in his head?


But your question after that was:

why try to prevent people from leaving,


Well... For one, skin vests. For two, they obviously liked just savoring Mat's EYE. Well, how about a whole person? And when they had the chance to do it with channelers, which apparently taste great, why not?

I'd assume those memories they get from watching are more like appetizers, not a real "meal".

Uno
12-20-2010, 12:40 PM
Well... For one, skin vests. For two, they obviously liked just savoring Mat's EYE. Well, how about a whole person? And when they had the chance to do it with channelers, which apparently taste great, why not?

I'd assume those memories they get from watching are more like appetizers, not a real "meal".

A lot of trouble to go through for vests, but I'm not entirely sure that they were dead set on trying to prevent the party from leaving. If they keep doing that with everyone--and the memories Mat has are from people who actually entered their realm and left--they're not terribly good at keeping people in, as Mat's head is crammed full. They could've just riled Mat up to get some emotions out of him that way. Also, they must've known that Mat would escape, otherwise giving up half the light of the world to save the world doesn't ring true. It'd be something less than that.

The continued mental at any rate makes some folkloric sense, as everyone knows that those who have entered the realm of the elves are never quite the same again.

CreationEdge
12-20-2010, 12:44 PM
The party was coming to take away something that the *finn believes was theirs. Also, they provided a good source of savor.

But I don't think they'd try it with everybody. Probably not everyone is worth it. Or some people made sure to make a deal to get out.

Notice that Thom didn't bargain away any body parts. Mat was a Ta'veren, and they wanted his eye (they told him that, essentially, a long time ago!)

Uno
12-20-2010, 12:53 PM
The party was coming to take away something that the *finn believes was theirs. Also, they provided a good source of savor.

But I don't think they'd try it with everybody. Probably not everyone is worth it. Or some people made sure to make a deal to get out.

Notice that Thom didn't bargain away any body parts. Mat was a Ta'veren, and they wanted his eye (they told him that, essentially, a long time ago!)

They were the ones that caused Mat to give up his eye. If they hadn't told him about that the first time he was stopping by for a chat, he wouldn't have ended up doing it. In other words, they were in control of the situation, and I'd say it's likely that they had a pretty good idea he'd get out of there, especially since they were the ones that gave him the key. To me, it seems that they were just messing with him for thrills, because that's what they like doing.

CreationEdge
12-20-2010, 12:55 PM
Yeah, could be.

But then what about Farstrider?

What about Moiraine's visions in the Arches that said if Mat didn't come with just 2 other men, no more, no less, then they'd all die?

Uno
12-20-2010, 01:06 PM
Yeah, could be.

But then what about Farstrider?

What about Moiraine's visions in the Arches that said if Mat didn't come with just 2 other men, no more, no less, then they'd all die?

Not sure, but Farstrider didn't bargain, so he may just have been unimportant in their eyes. When the party first showed up, they were just interested in Mat, not the others. I don't think they even acknowledged their presence. They forge a connection with people who make bargains with them, but other people who happen to tag along are expendable?

1Powerslave
12-20-2010, 03:43 PM
Also, they must've known that Mat would escape, otherwise giving up half the light of the world to save the world doesn't ring true. It'd be something less than that.
I don't think they knew that Mat would escape. Besides, Thom and Farstrider was unknown factors, having had no prior contact with the Finns, that made the rescue unpredictable. Also, I don't think anything except possibilities are written ahead of time.

I think the Aelfinn talent is a kind of prophetic talent, and that it comes with same limits as other prophecy in WoT, i.e. it sets up conditions that need to be fulfilled in order for the prophecy to come true. It sees likely outcomes for the future, likely weavings in the Pattern. In other words I don't think the Aelfinn has absolute knowledge of the future before that future has happened.

They can obviously somehow observe or tap into memories of threads/people they have come into contact with. But I don't think those memories are "written" until the person in question has those memories. :)

As for vests and letting people go. That is simple. The Finns take what they can get; if a person does not ask leave taking, or otherwise screws up, then they keep that person cause this satisfies them more than being able to record that person's memories and emotions from a distance. So they keep that person and eventually makes a vest. But a person that enters Finnland, abides by the treaty, and ask leave taking gets out unscathed. Although of course that person is memmory-bugged. Next best thing to savouring him up close. ;)