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feydrutha
12-19-2010, 03:18 PM
Hi everyone,

this is my first post here though I've been lurking a bit lately. Created an account because this little idea is nagging me, and seems so obvious that I am wondering why nobody seems to have thought of it (or if there is any evidence to rule it out).

I know moraine is back and has a role to play, but it doesn't have to be callandor, so we are still missing a second woman (with nynaeve being the first) to link with rand.

So, the seanchan have a prophecy that the dragon must kneel to the crystal throne. I seem to recall (though I couldn't find it in the prophecy section at wotfaq) that there was some similar indication that he had to be controlled or guided in some way by the white tower (any pointer to a specific reference for this would be appreciated).

Given the symmetry, it seems that one way for Rand to yield to both white tower and seanchan would be to be in a circle with nynaeve and tuon (where as we know the two women will be in command). And given her experience as a suldam, I think tuon could be partially happy with th arrangement (partially because she'd be sharing the honor with a marath damane..).

any thoughts on this?

ciao,
Feydrutha

morat'corlm
12-19-2010, 03:39 PM
My thought was Egwene and Tuon, but I'm coming to doubt they will participate in the final circle using Callandor, though they may join a Domination Band-facilitated circle briefly as a proof of concept. And as for roles to play, the foreshadowing that Nynaeve will play a role in resurrecting Rand is too powerful to ignore; her role in the endgame would seem almost too large. But it seems certain that two of these five will take part:

Egwene
Tuon
Moiraine
Nynaeve
Alivia

I am not aware of a prophecy stating that the Dragon must obey the White Tower, other than the beliefs of various Aes Sedai that it must be so.

Terez
12-19-2010, 03:47 PM
Hi everyone,

this is my first post here though I've been lurking a bit lately. Created an account because this little idea is nagging me, and seems so obvious that I am wondering why nobody seems to have thought of it (or if there is any evidence to rule it out).
I posted on this a few weeks ago (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4739).

So, the seanchan have a prophecy that the dragon must kneel to the crystal throne.
IMO the more relevant ones are those that Tuon paraphrased (quoted in the linked post).

I seem to recall (though I couldn't find it in the prophecy section at wotfaq) that there was some similar indication that he had to be controlled or guided in some way by the white tower (any pointer to a specific reference for this would be appreciated).
The closest thing I can think of would be Rand's dream in TEOTW ch. 9, if you consider it to be prophetic (I do). But all it really indicates is that Rand must go to the Tower at some point or another, which he has now done.

feydrutha
12-19-2010, 03:48 PM
...linking with tuon could also count as "binding the nine moons to him". This way the seanchan and randland prophecies do not have to be an either-or proposition.

I have read some people consider the dragon kneeling to the crystal throne a falsehood present only because ishmael corrupted the seanchan version of the prophecies. I do not quite know/remember where this idea comes from. But if aviendha's visions in rhuidean depict a possible future, it is a future in which the DO was defeated and rand did bow to the crystal throne:

"The Dragon's Peace-"
"What care do they have for the Dragon?" Hehyal asked. "They are invaders who forced him to bow to their Empress. She is considered above him. They will not keep promises they made to an inferior."

(I got this quote from someone on the nakomi thread)

So the corruption, if it is present, may be in the sense of formulating the prophecy in such a way as to make it seem the seanchan are on top, something that I would expect could happen just because of their cultural bias over the course of the centuries, not in the sense of turning it into a dark prophecy that, if fulfilled, will cause the DO to win.

Terez
12-19-2010, 03:52 PM
(see above post if you missed it)

Also, I think that the Dark prophecies will be fulfilled either way. They don't guarantee the Dark One's victory any more than the Karaethon Cycle guarantees the Light's victory (no matter how it might seem - the wording is vague enough).

I believe that the corruption was Ishamael's attempt to cause chaos at the Last Battle, but that they will find a way to fulfill all of the prophecies, real or not, without causing any real harm.

feydrutha
12-19-2010, 04:02 PM
I posted on this a few weeks ago (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4739).


Ah, hi terez, I guess I missed that thread. Thanks for the pointer.


IMO the more relevant ones are those that Tuon paraphrased (quoted in the linked post).


Yes, the empress sending the dragon to battle definitely sounds like she is controlling him through callandor.

feydrutha
12-19-2010, 04:17 PM
I am not aware of a prophecy stating that the Dragon must obey the White Tower, other than the beliefs of various Aes Sedai that it must be so.

It seems those sneaky Aes Sedai have managed to convince me about it as well...

Toss the dice
12-19-2010, 04:28 PM
Just my opinion, but no way in hell. One reason of many being that it doesn't fit with the rest of the books. I simply don't see it coming about. While vast and epic, the WoT is fairly straightforward and this is one curveball I don't see happening. Most things that happen are unsurprising; I talked about this pre-ToM and everyone thought I was nuts, they thought there were going to be grand twists and shocking turns of events. Instead, we (surprise, surprise) got one more epic yet straightforward WoT book (like all the others) NOT a la Lost.

To sum up: my opinion is No. Basing off previous similar prophecies, I believe the Tuon controlling Rand will end up coming to fruition, but in a pretty mundane and non-awe-inspiring way. That's been the way of them, at least lately.

sleepinghour
12-19-2010, 08:13 PM
I have a hard time seeing that happening. For one thing, Tuon still can't channel on her own and wouldn't be able to contribute much, if anything, to the circle. Secondly, if Tuon were to be given control of the circle, Rand and Nynaeve would be completely defenseless if she decided to collar them afterwards. I don't see either of them trusting her that much even if she's Mat's wife.

There's got to be an easier way than that for Rand to submit to Tuon.

RAND: So, I'll be your—what did you say it was called, da'covale?—for a week and dress accordingly. Well, that doesn't sound too hard.
And I suppose you'll want to keep Tuli and Suffa. I guess I can live with that—grudgingly, mind!—as a gesture of goodwill.
How about we sweeten the deal with this cool sword from your ancestor, as well as permanent access to his misty ghost through the Horn of Valere and person who sounded it. How's that sound?

TUON: (completely fails to realize she already has the Hornsounder) Excellent!

Terez
12-19-2010, 08:37 PM
Just my opinion, but no way in hell. One reason of many being that it doesn't fit with the rest of the books.
That's a bullshit statement. Try to explain what you mean.

While vast and epic, the WoT is fairly straightforward and this is one curveball I don't see happening.It's not a curveball; RJ has been beating us over the head with it since Tuon was introduced. The Empire is important; Tuon is important. She thinks she's just as important at Rand, and in a way, she might well be right.

Most things that happen are unsurprising; I talked about this pre-ToM and everyone thought I was nuts, they thought there were going to be grand twists and shocking turns of events. Instead, we (surprise, surprise) got one more epic yet straightforward WoT book (like all the others) NOT a la Lost.There have been so many twists throughout the series that it's pretty moronic to argue that the relative lack of them in TOM means anything.

I have a hard time seeing that happening. For one thing, Tuon still can't channel on her own and wouldn't be able to contribute much, if anything, to the circle.
It doesn't matter because 1) she could begin channeling at any time, and 2) she might could be guided to her first touching by the circle. She already knows the weaves; she performs them herself through the a'dam.

Secondly, if Tuon were to be given control of the circle, Rand and Nynaeve would be completely defenseless if she decided to collar them afterwards. I don't see either of them trusting her that much even if she's Mat's wife.This is certainly debatable. I lean towards Mat trusting her if she gives her word, and Rand and Nynaeve trusting Mat. They might also BIND her with the Oath Rod, if they don't trust her, but I tend to think that the Oath she will be forced to take will be a promise to set the damane free after the Last Battle (there likely won't be time before).

CreationEdge
12-19-2010, 10:05 PM
I can't imagine Tuon would be strong enough to be a worthwhile 3rd. And she knows the Seanchan battle weaves, but that's it. And why would Rand trust her?

Sure, Jesus Rand seems less distrustful of AS in general now, but then why Nynaeve as the 1st?

1) She's powerful
2) He trusts her

If he's going to have a 2nd women in charge of controlling him, why would he toss out those requirements?

So he'd want someone powerful and/or that he trusts.

Alivia (he knows she'll help him, so there's a sort of trust there. And she's very powerful.)

Moiraine (who shows up just in time. He trusts her more than any other AS, and with the Angreal she has she'll be strong enough, though not powerful)

Avi (his powerful lover)

Elayne (less likely, since occupied, but another powerful lover)


And, to boot, why would Tuon, who detests Unleashed Ones so much, willingly LINK (an ability they'd have to TEACH her and thus teach ALL Seanchan) with not only Nynaeve, but an Unleashed male as well? We'd have to be talking about using a male a'dam here.


It goes against 2 characters deep seated fears and distrusts. And I doubt Nynaeve would want to have Tuon with her, to boot!



if we are going to use Callandor, I will need two women I trust in the circle with me. I have not decided upon the other. Aviendha or Elayne, perhaps. But you for certain." -Rand al'Thor

RJ has been beating us over the head with it since Moiraine was "killed". Moiraine was the only Aes Sedai that Rand ever trusted.


And if Rand is planning on some sort of deal to make Tuon promise to free the damane, then we should have seen something of that in Avi's vision. You can argue that now that she's had the vision she can try to influence Rand to strike that bargain. Fine. Maybe.



But still Tuon is unlikely. She hasn't BEEN using the OP for years. She doesn't have to order damane to make them, but the damane are still doing the channeling. She can just see the weaves, so she's giving commands through the a'dam to make certain weaves.

Terez
12-19-2010, 11:28 PM
I can't imagine Tuon would be strong enough to be a worthwhile 3rd.
1. They're going to be using Callandor. Her strength probably won't make much difference.

2. She's been working so closely with the Power for so many years that she is far more skilled than sul'dam who are much older than she is. She doesn't even have to tell the damane what to do, or use pain as incentive to make the damane channel something. She does it herself through the link.

And she knows the Seanchan battle weaves, but that's it.Not true.

TITLE - Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 25 - Attending Elaida

“Don’t be foolish, Toy,” she had drawled in his tent, standing over him, arms folded beneath her breasts, while Lopin and Nerim plied their needles and he gritted his teeth. Her proprietary air, very much a woman making sure her property was repaired properly, had been enough to make him grind his teeth, never mind the needles. Or that he was down to his smallclothes! She had just walked in and refused to leave short of manhandling, and he had felt in no condition to manhandle a woman he suspected might be able to break his arm. “This Healing is a wonderful thing. My Mylen knows it, and I taught it to my others, too. Of course, many people are foolish about having the Power touch them. Half my servants would faint at the suggestion, and most of the Blood, too, I shouldn’t be surprised. But I wouldn’t have expected it of you.” If she had a quarter his experience of Aes Sedai, she would have.
Tuon is not the type to limit herself; she's likely learned much from Mylen and other former Aes Sedai.

And why would Rand trust her? I already said. He trusts Mat perhaps more than anyone else in the world besides Perrin and Nynaeve and his harem. And Tam. If Mat vouches for her - which might take some work on Tuon's part - then Rand will trust her.

Sure, Jesus Rand seems less distrustful of AS in general now, but then why Nynaeve as the 1st?

1) She's powerful
2) He trusts her

If he's going to have a 2nd women in charge of controlling him, why would he toss out those requirements? 1. Because Tuon and all the rest of the Seanchan believe in their prophecies, whether or not they are corrupted. This will fulfill their prophecies.

2. Rand knows that the two must be as one - that he has to make a truce, a deal...something before he can win the Last Battle.

3. The requirements need not be tossed out anyway (see above).

And, to boot, why would Tuon, who detests Unleashed Ones so much, willingly LINK (an ability they'd have to TEACH her and thus teach ALL Seanchan) with not only Nynaeve, but an Unleashed male as well? We'd have to be talking about using a male a'dam here.1. Because it's the only way to fulfill the prophecies.

2. Because there will be three ta'veren at the Field of Merrilor.

3. Mat.

4. It may be that the idea of swearing on the Oath Rod to never channel again will appeal to her. But I'm hoping that this is what happened in the future that Aviendha saw, and that something else will happen in the real future.

I doubt Nynaeve would want to have Tuon with her, to boot!She will get over it.

RJ has been beating us over the head with it since Moiraine was "killed". Moiraine was the only Aes Sedai that Rand ever trusted.Yeah, we know. I'm aware of the other possibilities and the arguments for them. I just think that Tuon is one of the strongest candidates for other reasons.

And if Rand is planning on some sort of deal to make Tuon promise to free the damane, then we should have seen something of that in Avi's vision. You can argue that now that she's had the vision she can try to influence Rand to strike that bargain. Fine. Maybe.No, I'd think that's pretty definite. The future ain't happening like that. There will be major changes, and I believe that Aviendha's proposal at Merrilor will end up tying the Aiel to the Seanchan.

She doesn't have to order damane to make them, but the damane are still doing the channeling.No, they're just supplying the Power. Tuon obviously does the channeling herself - it's too quick for it to be anything else. Nynaeve did the same with Moghedien when she was not angry enough to channel:

TITLE - Lord of Chaos
PROLOGUE - The First Message

Delicately she probed with the One Power, first at Siuan, then Leane. In a manner of speaking, she was not channeling at all. She could not channel a scrap unless angry, could not even sense the True Source. Yet it came to the same thing. Fine filaments of saidar, the female half of the True Source, sifted through the two women at her weaving. They just did not originate with her.
Clearly, Nynaeve is doing the weaving even though the weaves 'originate' with Moghedien.

jana
12-19-2010, 11:39 PM
I don't think it will be Tuon but I don't agree with many of the reasons against it listed here.

They would end up trusting her. It's been pounded into our heads that Tuon has never (ever ever) broken her word on anything. Mat can vouch for her.

I dislike any theory about Tuon being collared or forced to swear on the oath rod. It would destroy her character (in my mind anyway). She's going to come to the right decisions on her own, not through the use of force. If not, I will be a very sadface. (I know the theory says bind but I still say that could just be related to Mat and her being married).

Rand al'Fain
12-20-2010, 12:02 AM
I don't think Tuon will be the 3rd for a few reasons.

1. She herself has never actually channeled. So no experience there.
2. Lest we forget Rand and her's prior meeting? Yeah, that didn't go so well. So they will probably end up on the same side, I just don't see that kind of trust between them.
3. Just a little soon for the ruler of an empire that makes it a habit of enslaving every woman that can channel, to link with the Dragon Reborn by using one of the most powerful objects in regards to the OP in history.

So yeah, I just don't see it happening anytime soon.

Terez
12-20-2010, 12:06 AM
I don't think Tuon will be the 3rd for a few reasons.

1. She herself has never actually channeled. So no experience there.
Try reading what I've actually written.

Same for the rest of your post, really.

fionwe1987
12-20-2010, 12:38 AM
[QUOTE=Terez;136117]She already knows the weaves; she performs them herself through the a'dam.[/QUOTE}
But what weaves? The Dark One won't be defeated by a ball of Fire, or earth explosions, or even a basic Healing weave.

If there is to be any weaving at all, it must be incredibly complex. Which is why RJ had Nynaeve start showing great ability with complex weaves just before Rand asked her to help him.

The only other person with that kind of ability, IMO, is Egwene. Notice that when she makes a complex eavesdropping weave in ToM, Elayne is awed, but Nynaeve just nods. I think the clear signal there is that only Nynaeve and Egwene have reached a point in their channeling where they can weave anything complex enough to defeat the DO.

Further, Egwene is stronger than Elayne and Avi (the two other alternatives Rand suggested) and also is strongly linked to Vora's sa'angreal (itself paralleled a little with Callandor).

Also, Rand, Egwene and Nynaeve make excellent sense as the origninal trio of channelers from the Two Rivers. There's a reason they lived there, and why they all have such special relationships with each other.

Further, Egwene is the lightside parallel to Lanfear. How fitting that the Light's version of Lanfear will be the one to help Seal the bore the actual Lanfear helped open.

Rand al'Fain
12-20-2010, 12:49 AM
Further, Egwene is the lightside parallel to Lanfear.She is? Lanfear, before her whole jealousy thing at the docks ("Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" comes to mind), was willing to share the Power of the Choedan Kal with Rand. Eggy demands everyone bow to her, including poor Gawyn. Frankly, Lanfear went on a murderous rampage when she found out that Rand had slept with Aviendha. Eggy was just being a stuck up b*tch with Gawyn.

So, no, I don't think that Eggy is the "light" version of Lanfear. Otherise, I would have to go with Lanfear as the prefferable one.:o
Maybe Nynaeve would be a better example?

fionwe1987
12-20-2010, 02:24 AM
She is? Lanfear, before her whole jealousy thing at the docks ("Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" comes to mind), was willing to share the Power of the Choedan Kal with Rand.
Yeah, because believing the Foresaken on their promises is oh so wise...:rolleyes:

Eggy demands everyone bow to her, including poor Gawyn.
Because she holds a position that can easily be undermined by shows of disrespect. See Elayne's explanation to Gawyn.

Frankly, Lanfear went on a murderous rampage when she found out that Rand had slept with Aviendha. Eggy was just being a stuck up b*tch with Gawyn.
What is the connection? On the flip side, when Egwene thought she was going out with Rand, and found that Elayne and Min were in love with him, she did not flip out, and actually helped Elayne. That's why she's the Lightsides mirror of Lanfear.

So, no, I don't think that Eggy is the "light" version of Lanfear. Otherise, I would have to go with Lanfear as the prefferable one.:o
Maybe Nynaeve would be a better example?
No she wouldn't. Nynaeve never had a relationship with Rand. She has no Dreamwalking Talent. She is not linked to the moon and the color white. She did not lose her place as Rand's lover to a golden haired woman. She hasn't gained power independent of Rand (a direct contrast to Lanfear who wanted to use Rand to gain power). She can't possibly be a parallel to Lanfear.

morat'corlm
12-20-2010, 05:47 AM
Yeah, because believing the Foresaken on their promises is oh so wise...:rolleyes:

She would have faced the Great Lord—faced the Creator!—with him. She would have shared the power with him, let him rule the world at her side. And he had spurned her love, spurned her!Believing internal monologue is fraught with the same concerns about credibility, as we have numerous examples to demonstrate in this series, but I think this is an indication she'd believed the offer had been honest at the time. Whether she might have tried to go back on it later is another matter.

feydrutha
12-20-2010, 07:06 AM
RJ has been beating us over the head with it since Moiraine was "killed". Moiraine was the only Aes Sedai that Rand ever trusted.


I think rand's trust problems have been solved now that he is in Jesus mode, I don't think moriaine's role in the last battle is just to be an Aes Sedai that rand can trust, that would be quite an anticlimax at this point. OTOH, Rand's trust of her can serve to convince him to do as she advises, of course. She must have gained some information or something that will be essential in the last battle, but i doubt it requires her to wield callandor.

feydrutha
12-20-2010, 07:10 AM
I have a hard time seeing that happening. For one thing, Tuon still can't channel on her own and wouldn't be able to contribute much, if anything, to the circle. Secondly, if Tuon were to be given control of the circle, Rand and Nynaeve would be completely defenseless if she decided to collar them afterwards. I don't see either of them trusting her that much even if she's Mat's wife.

There's got to be an easier way than that for Rand to submit to Tuon.


Is it always that a single person gets full control of the circle, or would/could the control be shared between the two linked women in some form? I don't recall how this was put exactly in previous scenes were callandor was used by a proper circle (only in the battle when saidin was cleansed, I guess?).

Weird Harold
12-20-2010, 08:16 AM
Is it always that a single person gets full control of the circle, or would/could the control be shared between the two linked women in some form? I don't recall how this was put exactly in previous scenes were callandor was used by a proper circle (only in the battle when saidin was cleansed, I guess?).

Only one person can control/guide a Circle -- whether Callandor is involved or not. If Callandor is involved, the Guide should be female.

CreationEdge
12-20-2010, 08:54 AM
Terez>

I think you do have a pretty strong argument, although having Mat vouch for her doesn't quite seem like it'd be enough.

(But, 3 Ta'veren in one place... Anything could happen.)


Overcoming their deep distrusts in such a short time seems pretty unlikely. (Though, again, Ta'veren, I suppose.)

And we still have to get Mat/Tuon/Rand together, anyway. And the prophesy says Rand will kneel before the Crystal Throne, not the Empress of Seanchan.

Did they bring the throne with them overseas? Because we know we won't have a scene IN Seanchan...


But what else does Tuon bring to the table?
In the AoL circles were chosen not just for strength, but Talents and abilities. It could be argued that Nynaeve's Healing and ability to handle all 5 powers, and juggle complex weaves, could be useful in a circle... But Tuon? No one would have any idea what her Talents would be. She wouldn't even know. I know it's not necessary for her to need any talents, or skills.

But having her be part of the circle purely for political reasons. To possibly put victory in the Last Battle on the line to force prophesies together. *shrug*


But, honestly, I don't think I've seen a better argument for any other candidate, yet.

(For all we know, it could be Sharina or Alanna)

GonzoTheGreat
12-20-2010, 08:57 AM
Why would Tuon be useful for leading the circle at all?

Either she's a total novice at using the OP, in which case having her provide her strength might conceivably be useful, but letting her decide what to do would not, as she would not know what to do or how to do it.
Or she has actually channeled often before, in which case she would be a very accomplished liar, and hence not very trustworthy.

CreationEdge
12-20-2010, 09:16 AM
She wouldn't have to lead.

GonzoTheGreat
12-20-2010, 09:19 AM
But if she doesn't lead, then she's just another servant of whoever is in control. That would not really seem to be the function the Seanchan have in mind for their Empress, so I doubt it fits the bill.

sleepinghour
12-20-2010, 09:24 AM
The only other person with that kind of ability, IMO, is Egwene.
Egwene also has great skill at creating cuendillar which could come in handy if they'll be creating new seals. Then again, nothing says Egwene can't create the seals before Rand goes to Shayol Ghul. That would still make her an important part of the mission.

feydrutha
12-20-2010, 09:34 AM
Egwene also has great skill at creating cuendillar which could come in handy if they'll be creating new seals. Then again, nothing says Egwene can't create the seals before Rand goes to Shayol Ghul. That would still make her an important part of the mission.

Good point, but I doubt the grand plan is to create more seals. I think rand will have to fix the bore as if it had never been opened, so I do not see cuendillar being involved.

feydrutha
12-20-2010, 09:44 AM
Terez>
But having her be part of the circle purely for political reasons. To possibly put victory in the Last Battle on the line to force prophesies together. *shrug*


This is IMO the best argument against this theory that I have seen so far. Rand may choose Tuon for politicial reasons, but for narrative purposes there would have to be some intrinsic reason why Tuon is the right person for the job, and I can't think of any at the moment. I agree with Terez that Tuon is more than competent at leading a circle (formed by herself and her damane), but that doesn't really make her very special.

Or Maybe there are better ways of uniting seanchan and Randland for the last battle, but I just don't see how atm.

Toss the dice
12-20-2010, 03:49 PM
This thread is sweet.

-Once again, Terez believes strongly in something coming about, based on foreshadowing and her own weird logic, so much so that she KNOWS its going to happen.

-Once again, I disagree with her.

-Once again, she calls me names and tells me I'm a moron for not agreeing with her.

Will the inevitable of Terez being wrong come about once again? Guess we will have to wait one last time, for AMOL.

fionwe1987
12-20-2010, 11:22 PM
Believing internal monologue is fraught with the same concerns about credibility, as we have numerous examples to demonstrate in this series, but I think this is an indication she'd believed the offer had been honest at the time. Whether she might have tried to go back on it later is another matter.
LTT said Lanfear merely wanted to use him to gain power. I think I'll take that over Lanfear's self-justification any day.

Terez
12-21-2010, 12:34 AM
This thread is sweet.

-Once again, Terez believes strongly in something coming about, based on foreshadowing and her own weird logic, so much so that she KNOWS its going to happen.
I didn't say anything even close to that in this thread.

Once again, I disagree with her.
No one cares.

FelixPax
12-21-2010, 08:24 AM
Quite an interesting thread topic... even considering my own position as to the identity of third woman to link with Rand, Alivia in the future: Mierin.

Which bond is more powerful? A mindtrap like merging of souls, between Rand al'Thor and Moridin? Or a Linked Circle of channeler, between a man and two woman, with Mierin in control of the combined flows of the Power?

Moridin might attack Rand's mind during the Last Battle, but alas Mierin will likely ultimately control Rand's use of saidin, when Moridin finally attacks. Two Dragons, one light, one dark. Each bond by together, and yet who controls the flows? A Daughter of the Night, a woman who wears silver in the dark, so to reflect a spark of light.

Moon and Sun shall overcome the Dark Lord of Night, with a Fistful of Lightning and Dirt.

Let the screams begin, O followers of the Shadow. Beg for your destruction!

--from The Prophecies of the Shadow

The Moon was blood, and the Sun was ashes...

And for a time, a world without any shadows...

What's a Spider of the Shadow to do?
Find a extremely deep hole... ;)


Why would Tuon be useful for leading the circle at all?

A sul'dam leads a damane, in a forced circle... according to Egwene al'Vere's point of view in 'The Great Hunt' during her lovely place at Damane School 101, in the grand metropolitan village known as Falme.


Either she's a total novice at using the OP, in which case having her provide her strength might conceivably be useful, but letting her decide what to do would not, as she would not know what to do or how to do it.

Fortuona has "some" experience in a circle of two female channeling saidar. It's been claimed in the books, that Fortuona had among the best der'sul'dam teachers in the whole Seanchan Empire... I guess that means she isn't totally clueless.

Considering I strongly believe a Theory that Fortuona is the re-born soul of the last Queen of Manetheren, Eldrene ay Ellan ay Carlan (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/hist/eldrene.html). It goes without saying Eldrene was an EXTREMELY powerful channeler. Eldrene destroyed Ishamael's huge army of the dark in vengeance... for Aemon's death.

Curiously, L.T.T and Eldrene each killed themselves once by overdosing on the Power, be it Saidin or Saidar. One created Dragonmount, another created a storm of destruction raining down upon evil beings. One pulled up the Earth into a towering volcano, another pulled down a city to the depths of the living rock.


Or she has actually channeled often before, in which case she would be a very accomplished liar, and hence not very trustworthy.

If one stays silent on a topic, how is that creating a lie?

Fortuona not once in the whole series, has ever claimed she knowing channeled saidar by herself (e.g. no damane was accessed).

It's implied by clues, hints in the books though that Fortuona has indeed channeled. For example, her youthful looks which is correlated to 'slowing'. She is keeping a few secrets from Selucia... one of which I believe to be her channeling saidar during a time of great need--perhaps a prior assassination attempt on her life, when Selucia wasn't around.

If someone like Moridin can stop himself from channeling Saidin for 1-2 years straight... I believe a person as strong willed as Fortuona can stop herself from channeling as well. Yet each of these individuals has a separate way of fulfilling that 'desire' to channel the power. Moridin uses the True Power, while Fortuona can get her kicks by weaving the power of saidar taken from a virtually unlimited number of poor damane her mother the Empress 'owns'.

Thing is the Fortuona is in a new position now... an Empress can't act like a psuedo-sul'dam, unlike the Daughter of the Nine Moons who could... so how long can a sparking channeler go without getting their kick? Remember how Galina felt, upon being barred the option of channeling saidar by Therava (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/t/therava.html)? Yes, Fortuona has a well hidden addiction too. ;)

CreationEdge
12-21-2010, 08:49 AM
Emma: Can the a'dam hold every sul'dam?
RJ: The a'dam can only hold sul'dam who have been sul'dam for a long time and so wearing the bracelet for a long time. Four months for example isn't enough.


I just thought that was a relevant quote about the nature of being a sul'dam.

Terez
12-21-2010, 09:20 PM
The Kin in Caemlyn also mentioned that they can sense the ability of the sul'dam, as if it is potential ability:

TITLE - Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 8 - The Sea Folk and Kin

"They still deny they can channel," Alise muttered, folding her arms beneath her breasts, and frowned at the woman facing Reanne. "They can't, really, I suppose, but I can feel . . . something. Not quite the spark of a woman born to it, but almost. It's as if she were right at the brink of being able to channel, one foot poised to step over. I have never sensed anything like it before."

morat'corlm
12-21-2010, 09:28 PM
Also Aviendha: “The women with the bracelets can channel also,” she replied just as softly. “It feels very strange, though. Weak. As if they had never practiced it. I cannot see how that can be.”

But with so little time left I think the male a'dam would have to be involved should Tuon lead the circle. The reverse flow might push her over the edge, though, which incidentally could 'bind' her to change the way channelers are treated by the Seanchan.

Terez
12-21-2010, 09:32 PM
But with so little time left I think the male a'dam would have to be involved should Tuon lead the circle.
I don't see why. It would be the exact same thing as channeling through the a'dam except that Tuon will be contributing her own power (no matter how puny it might be).

morat'corlm
12-21-2010, 09:49 PM
Yes, but she would be more comfortable using the a'dam, which at the moment is the biggest barrier to her involvement. She still believes that women who can touch the True Source are marath'damane, and I haven't yet seen a plausible explanation for how she'll be disabused of that. This way... well, the metaphors are all rather disturbingly sexual and it's probably not ethical of Rand to knowingly do it, but she'd be forced to confront the issue before Galgan tried to slap a collar on her; the important thing is, she doesn't have to confront the issue before entering the Callandor circle.

Terez
12-21-2010, 10:00 PM
She still believes that women who can touch the True Source are marath'damane, and I haven't yet seen a plausible explanation for how she'll be disabused of that.
Perhaps you have been ignoring those explanations. One very plausible explanation is that she will channel impulsively, like Bethamin did. At that point there is no turning back unless she actually swears on the Oath Rod to never channel again. Another plausible explanation is that Mat finally makes her see how twisted her logic is. She uses the Power through her damane, and ethically there is no difference between that and channeling herself beyond the slavery issue.

The second issue is that it takes a certain amount of time to learn to control saidar enough to do something like forming a link
Again, she already knows how to handle saidar. This is not an issue. Even the newest novices can be brought into a link - leading one only requires channeling skill, which Tuon has plenty of.

morat'corlm
12-21-2010, 10:43 PM
One very plausible explanation is that she will channel impulsively, like Bethamin did. At that point there is no turning back unless she actually swears on the Oath Rod to never channel again.Yes, but under what circumstances would she face the kind of stress to make her channel impulsively – or do anything impulsively? She's lately become quite focused on self-control and self-discipline. Yes, you'll say that is only setting her up for a dramatic break, and you could well be right.Another plausible explanation is that Mat finally makes her see how twisted her logic is. She uses the Power through her damane, and ethically there is no difference between that and channeling herself beyond the slavery issue.That's a possible explanation, but I wouldn't call it plausible. Mat's tried to convince her, and no doubt Setalle did as well. But no matter how flawed her logic is, she believes it, and she has a lot of reasons to keep believing.leading one only requires channeling skill, which Tuon has plenty of.Yes, I agree with that.Even the newest novices can be brought into a link...but not with this. Are there any examples of very new channelers being linked? Nicola, for instance, had been tested/become a novice 49 days before the circle in LOC14. The novice circles Egwene requests in TGS40 are led by novices who she has determined are the most skilled with saidar, and who can certainly embrace it on demand. But embracing saidar is the one thing Tuon does not know how to do, and I don't believe we're given any indication that Bethamin and Seta learn to do this particularly quickly, even though Joline is training them practically full-time. I'm sure Tuon knows how to train a damane to embrace saidar, but that's entirely different from being able to put herself through the process. Or is she going to be leashed?

Perhaps Tuon can learn to channel consistently within a week, but she's running out of weeks, especially when she has to have that epiphany first.

Terez
12-21-2010, 10:56 PM
Yes, but under what circumstances would she face the kind of stress to make her channel impulsively – or do anything impulsively?
It could be any number of things, but I imagine the most likely is that she will have to channel to save Mat from being killed, or something similar.

I wouldn't call it plausible. Mat's tried to convince her, and no doubt Setalle did as well.
Perhaps they simply haven't used the right arguments.

Are there any examples of very new channelers being linked? Nicola, for instance, had been tested/become a novice 49 days before the circle in LOC14.
She was not the newest of the novices - all of them were used.

The novice circles Egwene requests in TGS40 are led by novices who she has determined are the most skilled with saidar, and who can certainly embrace it on demand.
They were led by the experienced ones. All of them were used in the circles.

But embracing saidar is the one thing Tuon does not know how to do...I'm sure Tuon knows how to train a damane to embrace saidar, but that's entirely different from being able to put herself through the process.
She knows how - she's just never done it without the a'dam. She doesn't teach them how to do it, she does it herself:

TITLE - Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 9 - A Short Path

“Try to embrace saidar,” she drawled, stern eyes steady on Joline. Her voice was quite mild in comparison to her gaze, yet plainly she expected obedience. Obedience? She looked a bloody leopard staring at three tethered goats. And strangely, more beautiful than ever. A beautiful leopard who might rake him with her claws as soon as the goats. Well, he had faced a leopard a few times before this, and those were his own memories. There was an odd sort of exhilaration that came with confronting a leopard. “Go ahead,” she went on. “You know the shield is gone.” Joline gave a small grunt of surprise, and Tuon nodded. “Good. You’ve obeyed for the first time. And learned that you cannot touch the Power while you wear the a'dam unless I wish it. But now, I wish you to hold the Power, and you do, though you didn’t try to embrace it.” Joline’s eyes widened slightly, a small crack in her calm. “And now,” Tuon went on, “I wish you not to be holding the Power, and it is gone from you. Your first lessons.” Joline drew a deep breath. She was beginning to look… not afraid, but uneasy.

and I don't believe we're given any indication that Bethamin and Seta learn to do this particularly quickly
We are - Bethamin channeled a pretty complicated weave right off the bat. A weave that she knew from her experience as a sul'dam. She 'lost the Source' after a moment, but this was most likely due to the shock of having channeled at all. Tuon won't have this problem.

morat'corlm
12-21-2010, 11:30 PM
I imagine the most likely is that she will have to channel to save Mat from being killed, or something similar.The problem with this or any of the alternatives that I've heard is that they suppose a situation where Tuon's already lost control, which would be a pretty big plot twist. Mat's life is in danger in her presence, despite the Deathwatch Guard and her damane?Bethamin channeled a pretty complicated weave right off the bat. A weave that she knew from her experience as a sul'dam. She 'lost the Source' after a moment, but this was most likely due to the shock of having channeled at all. Tuon won't have this problem.This is what I dispute. Rand's first weave was complicated too, and it took him another year before he learned to channel at will. Obviously that's an imperfect comparison in a number of ways, but "most likely" is just a guess; there is nothing in KOD that conclusively makes the sul'dam-to-channeler conversion out to be simply flipping a switch. That sul'dam are able to weave much more impressively than ordinary novices right off the bat is really immaterial to the question of how long it takes them to be able to find saidar at will.

Terez
12-21-2010, 11:39 PM
The problem with this or any of the alternatives that I've heard is that they suppose a situation where Tuon's already lost control, which would be a pretty big plot twist.
So? What's wrong with plot twists? Besides, it's not much of a twist considering the massive foreshadowing of it.

Mat's life is in danger in her presence, despite the Deathwatch Guard and her damane?
Why would you assume that they would be around? Also, what is to say that Tuon would not react impulsively and even irrationally if they were around?

Rand's first weave was complicated too, and it took him another year before he learned to channel at will.
So? He had no experience with channeling. Tuon does. There is nothing to indicate that Tuon will have a problem finding saidar when she already knows how to do it.

You are arguing against a position backed up by evidence with no evidence of your own. Just opinion. I don't really care about anyone's opinions.

morat'corlm
12-22-2010, 12:00 AM
So? What's wrong with plot twists? Besides, it's not much of a twist considering the massive foreshadowing of it.Nothing's wrong with plot twists; it's just that relying on one which is not massively foreshadowed makes the theory less likely. And if there's massive foreshadowing that Tuon will be in physical danger in AMOL, I've missed it.Why would you assume that they would be around? Also, what is to say that Tuon would not react impulsively and even irrationally if they were around?You'd assume they would be around because it's their job, and one they've performed admirably to date. As to how Tuon would react, obviously she'll react however Sanderson writes her as reacting, and your opinion on that is certainly as valid as mine.There is nothing to indicate that Tuon will have a problem finding saidar when she already knows how to do it.Knowing how something is done, even having guided others in doing it, is no indication of one's ability to actually do it oneself. Those who can't do, teach, and all.You are arguing against a position backed up by evidence with no evidence of your own. Just opinion. I don't really care about anyone's opinions.:)

Terez
12-22-2010, 12:02 AM
Nothing's wrong with plot twists; it's just that relying on one which is not massively foreshadowed makes the theory less likely. And if there's massive foreshadowing that Tuon will be in physical danger in AMOL, I've missed it.
Oh, that's what you were talking about. Tuon being in danger is far from a plot twist. For that matter, Mat being in danger is far from a plot twist.

You'd assume they would be around because it's their job
No, I wouldn't. There are plenty of believable situations in which Mat and Tuon might be alone.

FelixPax
12-22-2010, 03:14 AM
Emma: Can the a'dam hold every sul'dam?
RJ: The a'dam can only hold sul'dam who have been sul'dam for a long time and so wearing the bracelet for a long time. Four months for example isn't enough.

I just thought that was a relevant quote about the nature of being a sul'dam.

Okay, so what?

All that above Robert Jordan quote implies about Sul'dam is a direct copying of what already is within the books:

“It is he, Lady Morsa,” the other damane’s sul’dam said suddenly in a soft drawl that Rand could barely understand. “I have borne the bracelet long, and I could tell if the marath’damane had done more than block Jini.”

The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 32 "A Short Spear" -- Rand point of view; with Aviendha in southern Seanchan



Tuon has been under direct training of a der'sul'dam for over 3 years. Beginning at age 16, and she is almost 20 now--as of Towers of Midnight book.

Egwene al'Vere began his own training starting with Moiraine at a later Age than even Tuon did (tEotW). Yet look at Egwene al'Vere's abilities now. :)


Even the man whom Tuon trusts more than any other with her life, Furyk Karede claimed, that it was common knowledge that Tuon was an equal if not superior to any der'sul'dam in her abilities. What does that mean?

An a'dam will leash Tuon as an damane, if an attempt is make.

Why? Tuon can see weaves.

How is that known?

Tuon expressly said her weaves melted upon touching Mat Cauthon-- in a scene with Joline, Edesina, Teslyn, Selucia, Noal (See KoD, Chapter 9)

Remember how Seta covered her eyes when channeling was occurring around herself? Well, both Seta and Tuon can see weaves of saidar.

Who was once leashed by an a'dam? Seta.

If one can see the flows of saidar, that is enough for the a'dam to collar a woman as a damane.

Terez
12-22-2010, 03:37 AM
Tuon, unlike most sul'dam, did not even bother to try denying that she saw the weaves.

fionwe1987
12-22-2010, 07:21 AM
leading one only requires channeling skill, which Tuon has plenty of.
You keep harping on this, but you're completely wrong. At best, Tuon knows all the weaves Damane know, and what an old-school AS knows. Now, she knows Traveling. That's it.

And that is damn poor. We don't know how skilled she is with her weaves, nor her strengths in the five powers, but even leaving those aside, she isn't close to displaying the levels of skill Nynaeve, Egwene and to a lesser degree, Avi and Elayne show.

Which is what makes this an absurd idea.

GonzoTheGreat
12-22-2010, 07:27 AM
Then again, Tuon has probably far more experience guiding saidin than almost any other woman has, doesn't she?
I mean, she's had so much practice at that ...

CreationEdge
12-22-2010, 07:52 AM
Where is Tuon's timeline as of the end of ToM?

Weird Harold
12-22-2010, 08:05 AM
Where is Tuon's timeline as of the end of ToM?

According to Morat'colm's provisional timeline for ToM, Fortuona's last scene (with Suffa demonstrating Traveling) was 14 days after the Tower was reunited -- or ~~day 828 of the story.

About seven days before Lan's charge at the end of ToM.

Terez
12-22-2010, 12:10 PM
You keep harping on this, but you're completely wrong.
No, I'm not.

At best, Tuon knows all the weaves Damane know, and what an old-school AS knows. Now, she knows Traveling. That's it.
That's plenty.

GonzoTheGreat
12-22-2010, 01:01 PM
That's plenty.In that case Alivia would do even better, as she's just as knowledgeable, but far stronger. But then, there's a prophecy that actually suggests that Alivia will be around when Rand goes to fight the DO, so ... wait, that does not seem to strengthen the Tuon case, does it?

Nei
12-22-2010, 01:15 PM
You keep harping on this, but you're completely wrong. At best, Tuon knows all the weaves Damane know, and what an old-school AS knows. Now, she knows Traveling. That's it.

And that is damn poor. We don't know how skilled she is with her weaves, nor her strengths in the five powers, but even leaving those aside, she isn't close to displaying the levels of skill Nynaeve, Egwene and to a lesser degree, Avi and Elayne show.

Which is what makes this an absurd idea.

We may not know her specific strengths, but I have reason to believe that Tuon has more exposure to the OP than is obviously stated.

We know that Tuon is small for her age and looks younger than she really is. That pretty much implies that she has already begun to slow. That's something that requires regular use of the OP.

frenchie
12-22-2010, 01:26 PM
We may not know her specific strengths, but I have reason to believe that Tuon has more exposure to the OP than is obviously stated.

We know that Tuon is small for her age and looks younger than she really is. That pretty much implies that she has already begun to slow. That's something that requires regular use of the OP.

You cannot slow if you have never actively channeled. No points this round.

Terez
12-22-2010, 01:36 PM
In that case Alivia would do even better, as she's just as knowledgeable, but far stronger.
Yes dear, but 1) we don't know anything about how far a sul'dam can push potential strength before channeling, 2) individual strength might not matter so much in a circle with the world's strongest sa'angreal, and 3) Alivia is not the Empress.

But then, there's a prophecy that actually suggests that Alivia will be around when Rand goes to fight the DO, so ... wait, that does not seem to strengthen the Tuon case, does it?
It suggests she will help him die, and for all the blood-spilling prophecies, it seems unlikely that Rand will actually die at Shayol Ghul. RJ went to too much effort in never stating outright that he would die there, yet allowing all of the characters (and the readers) to assume that he would.

Res_Ipsa
12-22-2010, 02:25 PM
I am pretty sure there will have to be some major plot evolution in order to bring Tuon to a point where she finds it necessary to link with Rand via Callandor and a marath'damane. Especially considering the societal prejudices the Seanchan have. Personally I do not believer Tuon's plot line will intersect with Rand's need to seal the bore

Also speculating as to her power level and skill with weaves seems moot since we have no idea the weaves required to seal the bore. This is knowledge that LTT knew so it is likely Rand does as well. I am going to hazard a guess that the circle will be Rand, Alivia and Nynaeve if in fact they use Callandor.

Terez
12-22-2010, 03:12 PM
1. Rand can't lead the circle.

2. Lews Therin doesn't know how to seal it. He can't do it the same way as last time.

Res_Ipsa
12-22-2010, 09:19 PM
1. Rand can't lead the circle.

2. Lews Therin doesn't know how to seal it. He can't do it the same way as last time.

I didn't imply he could lead the circle and I am sure there will be a fair bit of dickering coming out of the meeting of the Armies and assuming Rand can bring them on his side who is to go and how many that is why I do not believe Tuon will be present at the bore. As stated in one of my threads that I believe Tuon will bring the Seanchan to Tar Valon as it is being besieged by trolloc's.

Also the prevailing sentiments of the Seanchan do not lend themselves to negotiating themselves into a lower position. They negotiate through Strength as Tuon has readily demonstrated in her meeting with Rand. None can be over the Empress.

nameless
12-22-2010, 10:24 PM
Nynaeve's the best bet for leading the circle. Rand trusts her unconditionally, her uncanny talent for anti-Shadow Healing techniques is second only to Rand's anti-Shadow combat techniques, and she has prior experience linking in heterogenous circles. The only mark against her is that she's too obvious a choice, but there's nothing to say every little thing is going to be a huge twist. Every now and then the obvious choice will happen the way everyone expected it would.

FelixPax
12-23-2010, 06:08 AM
Nynaeve's the best bet for leading the circle.

Problem: Nynaeve specifically claimed in her thoughts, after the Cleansing of the Taint, she NEVER ever wants to join into a Linked Circle with an individual who channels Saidin. (See CoT book)

Conclusion: Nynaeve will absolutely not join a Linked Circle with Rand al'Thor, nor any other male channeler.


Alternatively, who once claimed to be a more Talented Channeler than L.T.T was?
Mierin, otherwise known as Lanfear.

Who once bent her knee and kneeled to Rand al'Thor?
Mierin, otherwise known as Selene.
(See TGH book, the Mirror World chapters for scene).

GonzoTheGreat
12-23-2010, 06:19 AM
Problem: Nynaeve specifically claimed in her thoughts, after the Cleansing of the Taint, she NEVER ever wants to join into a Linked Circle with an individual who channels Saidin. (See CoT book)

Conclusion: Nynaeve will absolutely not join a Linked Circle with Rand al'Thor, nor any other male channeler.She may have changed her mind:
"Go to Egwene," Rand said, releasing her shoulder. "But when you can, I would like it very much if you returned to me. I will need your counsel again. At the very least, I would like you by my side as I go to Shayol Ghul. I cannot defeat him with saidin alone, and if we are going to use Callandor, I will need two women I trust in the circle with me. I have not decided upon the other. Aviendha or Elayne, perhaps. But you for certain."

"I will be there, Rand." She felt oddly proud. "Hold still for a moment. I won't hurt you. I promise."Of course, she could have been telling lies. She isn't bound by the Oaths, yet, after all, at this point.

gholam
12-23-2010, 10:09 AM
I don't have any concrete evidence for this idea 's but of late there's a nagging feeling 'why can't the three be Mat, Perrin and Rand' of course it's not that Mat and Perrin could channel But may be when they are doing their djob - Perrin as the standard bearer Mat as the horn sounder and rand doing his stuff.

I don't know if I could find any references to support the theory any pointers would be much appreciated

metaphor
12-23-2010, 12:22 PM
She may have changed her mind:
Of course, she could have been telling lies. She isn't bound by the Oaths, yet, after all, at this point.

excluding Rand Therin with his AoL knowledge, she is the best suited to heal the pattern.
I've always thought of the sealing of the Bore in a similar way as reconnecting the 2 severed parts when she heals a stilled person.
In that case Damer Flinn would also be suited to the job. Perhaps they'll each lead a circle and work together.

As for callandor, I think they have the wrong idea about it.they believe they have to nullify the effect of its flaw. I think they'll have to make use of the flaw to win the last battle.

nameless
12-23-2010, 12:45 PM
I don't have any concrete evidence for this idea 's but of late there's a nagging feeling 'why can't the three be Mat, Perrin and Rand' of course it's not that Mat and Perrin could channel But may be when they are doing their djob - Perrin as the standard bearer Mat as the horn sounder and rand doing his stuff.

I don't know if I could find any references to support the theory any pointers would be much appreciated

I've also considered the 3 ta'veren for the three who become one. The problem is that the Callandor theory fits with what we know of link mechanics. Links function as an automatic overdraw buffer as long as someone else is in control, and two women, one man is the minimum necessary circle that allows a woman to control the flows.

Of course it's entirely possible that the prophecies referred to something else entirely, like the ta'veren, and the Callandor thing will happen anyway just cause it's the best way to compensate for the missing surge protector.

FelixPax
12-23-2010, 03:10 PM
She may have changed her mind:
Of course, she could have been telling lies. She isn't bound by the Oaths, yet, after all, at this point.

Nynaeve will keep her word, her promises. For example, her other prior promises to Mat Cauthon. :)

There is a problem through, even with that TofM quotation.


Problem:


Nynaeve claimed " I won't hurt you. I promise."
Dark Prophecy foretells:


Daughter of the Night (Mierin), she walks again.
The ancient war, she yet fights.
Her new lover (Rand) she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.

Incompatible:


Nynaeve will not hurt Rand.
Rand will serve Mierin, shifted control of a Link Circle to Mierin, and die.


Outcome: Nynaeve is not part of a Linked Circle with Rand, which "hurts him" or "kills him".

gholam
12-23-2010, 10:26 PM
I've also considered the 3 ta'veren for the three who become one. The problem is that the Callandor theory fits with what we know of link mechanics. Links function as an automatic overdraw buffer as long as someone else is in control, and two women, one man is the minimum necessary circle that allows a woman to control the flows.

Of course it's entirely possible that the prophecies referred to something else entirely, like the ta'veren, and the Callandor thing will happen anyway just cause it's the best way to compensate for the missing surge protector.

Yeah! that sounds logical. May be this is one of those ideas rather than theories which might die an early death - but who knows. Callandor is like an onion, there is always something new about it. Even in TOM

CreationEdge
12-25-2010, 08:55 AM
N

Outcome: Nynaeve is not part of a Linked Circle with Rand, which "hurts him" or "kills him".



That Dark Prophecy quote is not about The Three or Callandor... It has no references to it, at all. Nothing in that prophecy relates to or even hints at a relation to such an event.

sheikh chilli
12-25-2010, 09:55 AM
i would laugh so hard if tuon was part of the circle. That would be the most absurd thing ever in the series.

Rand al'Fain
12-25-2010, 03:55 PM
i would laugh so hard if tuon was part of the circle. That would be the most absurd thing ever in the series.

Ironic too.

Terez
12-25-2010, 07:08 PM
i would laugh so hard if tuon was part of the circle. That would be the most absurd thing ever in the series.
Just wait until Gawyn kills Rand.

FelixPax
12-27-2010, 07:48 PM
That Dark Prophecy quote is not about The Three or Callandor... It has no references to it, at all. Nothing in that prophecy relates to or even hints at a relation to such an event.

No references to it? Ha!


Min has a foretelling specifically about Alivia, which is exactly in the same vein as the Dark Prophecy writings (TGH book):

Alivia - "Rand, I like Alivia. But she is going to kill you." Rand replies, "Helping me die isn't the same as killing me. Unless you've changed your mind about what you saw."

Winter's Heart, Chapter 25 -- Rand point of view; next to Min.

Alivia is going to help Rand al'Thor die.


The Karaethon Cycle or Cycle of the Dragon, proclaims that a Blade (e.g. Callandor) and Three shall be one.

"He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall be one."

The Gathering Storm, Chapter 48


Rand, Callandor, Alivia, and Mierin each are all tied together by multiple prophecies and foretellings.

“Callandor. With that in my hands, I can do anything. Anything. I know I can do anything.

The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 21 "Into the Heart" -- Moiraine point of view; Rand speaking, with Egwene, Mat, Lan, et la in scene


Even writings in the "future" imply directly that the Moon (Mierin) and the Sun (Rand) died to end the Third Age during the Last Battle.

And the Shadow fell upon the Land, and the World was riven stone from stone. The oceans fled, and the mountains were swallowed up, and the nations were scattered to the eight corners of the World. The moon was as blood, and the sun was as ashes. The seas boiled, and the living envied the dead. All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.

—from Aleth nin Taerin alta Camora,
The Breaking of the World.
Author unknown, the Fourth Age


Karaethon Cycle prophecy proclaims that the Dragon Reborn will die, and be born again:

"Twice dawns the day when his blood is shed.
Once for mourning, once for birth.
Red on black, the Dragon's blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.
In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow."


The Great Hunt, Chapter 26 -- Rand point of view


Prophecy even proclaims that people will be blinded (lightning), and his Blood shall give us Light.

"And it shall come to pass that what men made shall be shattered, and the Shadow shall lie across the Pattern of the Age, and the Dark One shall once more lay his hand upon the world of man. Women shall weep and men quail as the nations of the earth are rent like rotting cloth. Neither shall anything stand nor abide...

Yet one shall be born to face the Shadow, born once more as he was born before and shall be born again, time without end. The Dragon shall be Reborn, and there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth at his rebirth. In sackcloth and ashes shall he clothe the people, and he shall break the world again by his coming, tearing apart all ties that bind. Like the unfettered dawn shall he blind us, and burn us, yet shall the Dragon Reborn confront the Shadow at the Last Battle, and his blood shall give us the Light. Let tears flow, O ye people of the world. Weep for your salvation."


The Great Hunt, Prologue -- Header


The Dark Prophecy even proclaims Mierin the Daughter of the Night will kill the Dragon Reborn...

Daughter of the Night, she walks again.
The ancient war, she yet fights.
Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.

The Great Hunt, Chapter 7

What does the 'serve' in this above context reference?


be a servant to
carry out duties
meet a purpose; perform a function


Source: Oxford Desk Dictionary (American Edition); Oxford Univ. Press, 1995

Mierin is an Aes Sedai, in terms of the 2nd Age pre-Breaking Era;
Mierin is fighting the Shadow, past and present;
Mierin will protect those of the Light and shall kill those who have been touched by the Shadow--including Rand al'Thor.


Why would Rand al'Thor let Mierin guide the weaves which shall kill himself?

Mierin is a more apt & talented channeler than the Dragon Reborn is, for one reason among others.

Lanfear appeared to have no trouble breathing. “Whatever you can do, Lews Therin, I can do. And better.” Pinned against the wall as she was, she seemed unperturbed. The din of fighting surged up somewhere nearby, then faded as the battle moved away. “You half-use the smallest fraction of what you are capable of, and walk away from what would allow you to crush all who come against you. Where is Callandor, Lews Therin? Still up in your bedchamber like some useless ornament? Do you think yours is the only hand that can wield it, now that you have drawn it free?

The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 10 'The Stone Stands' -- Rand al'Thor point of view; with Lanfear/Mierin



Rand al'Thor has been touched by the Dark One directly since at least his fight against Asmodean in Rhuidean. How? Rand became one with the 'Black Steel Wires' in the Void. Thought can become reality in the Void, like in the Dream Worlds.

He had not seen those strange things like black steel wires around Asmodean since leaving the dark place, but he could visualize them even in the Void, place them in his mind around the Forsaken. Tam had taught him the Void as an aid to archery, to be one with the bow, the arrow, the target. He made himself one with those imagined black wires.


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 58 "The Traps of Rhuidean" -- Rand al'Thor point of view; fighting Asmodean

Nynaeve saw the Dark One's touch, on Rand's mind in TofM book during a delving.

Sei'taer
12-27-2010, 08:19 PM
No references to it? Ha!


Min has a foretelling specifically about Alivia, which is exactly in the same vein as the Dark Prophecy writings (TGH book):



Alivia is going to help Rand al'Thor die.


The Karaethon Cycle or Cycle of the Dragon, proclaims that a Blade (e.g. Callandor) and Three shall be one.




Rand, Callandor, Alivia, and Mierin each are all tied together by multiple prophecies and foretellings.




Even writings in the "future" imply directly that the Moon (Mierin) and the Sun (Rand) died to end the Third Age during the Last Battle.




Karaethon Cycle prophecy proclaims that the Dragon Reborn will die, and be born again:




Prophecy even proclaims that people will be blinded (lightning), and his Blood shall give us Light.




The Dark Prophecy even proclaims Mierin the Daughter of the Night will kill the Dragon Reborn...



What does the 'serve' in this above context reference?



Mierin is an Aes Sedai, in terms of the 2nd Age pre-Breaking Era;
Mierin is fighting the Shadow, past and present;
Mierin will protect those of the Light and shall kill those who have been touched by the Shadow--including Rand al'Thor.


Why would Rand al'Thor let Mierin guide the weaves which shall kill himself?

Mierin is a more apt & talented channeler than the Dragon Reborn is, for one reason among others.





Rand al'Thor has been touched by the Dark One directly since at least his fight against Asmodean in Rhuidean. How? Rand became one with the 'Black Steel Wires' in the Void. Thought can become reality in the Void, like in the Dream Worlds.



Nynaeve saw the Dark One's touch, on Rand's mind in TofM book during a delving.

That was a well thought out and actually very coherent post, Felix. Well done.

Not that I agree with it in the least.

GonzoTheGreat
12-28-2010, 04:44 AM
Daughter of the Night, she walks again.
The ancient war, she yet fights.
Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.

The Great Hunt, Chapter 7Could the new lover be Ishamael, who died and returned as Moridin?

After all, LTT/Rand was her old lover.

FelixPax
12-28-2010, 11:33 AM
Could the new lover be Ishamael, who died and returned as Moridin?

After all, LTT/Rand was her old lover.

Utterly impossible.

Why? Because Mierin claims to love the soul of Lew Therin always: past, present, future.

She stared at him, both hands pressed hard against her stomach, her dark eyes even larger than usual. “Graendal said . . . ” she began faintly. Swallowing, she began again. “Lews Therin? I love you, Lews Therin. I have always loved you, and I always will. You know that. You must!”

The Fires of Heavens, Chapter 6 "Gateways" -- Rand point of view; with Mierin/Lanfear/Selene/Else Grinwell/Moonhunter/Silvie speaking

Who did Mierin seek out, and kneel to?
In a Mirror World, no less, with two witnesses present?

“I am called Selene,” she said. “You have risked your life, and saved mine. I am yours, Lord Rand al’Thor.” And, to Rand’s horror, she knelt before him.

The Great Hunt, Chapter 16 "In the Mirror of Darkness" -- Rand point of view; with Loial, Hurin, Mierin

What's so special about the place Mierin kneeled to Rand al'Thor?

It's the one place the Dark One cannot touch, according to Graendal in TofM book. Thus, Mierin kept her ultimate loyalties to Rand secret from the Dark Lord and Ishamael.

Who's life does Mierin care for?
Rand al'Thor's as can be readily seen...

Selene still seemed uneasy when he helped her dismount. “Are you all right?” he asked. “I didn’t frighten you back there, did I? Red would never fall over a cliff with me.” He wondered what had really happened.

“You terrified me,” she said in a tight voice, “and I do not frighten easily. You could have killed yourself, killed . . . ” She smoothed her dress.


The Great Hunt, Chapter 20 'Saidin' -- Rand al'Thor point of view; with Mierin, Loial, Hurin.

Who does Mierin claim to think of always?

I must leave you for a time. There are too many people here, and I do not like Caldevwin. I will await you in Cairhien. Never think that I am too far from you. You will be in my thoughts always, as I know that I am in yours.


The Great Hunt, Chapter 21 "The Nine Rings" -- Rand al'Thor point of view; reading Selene/Mierin's Letter

Who is the one man Mierin "could stand beside"?
Rand al'Thor.

“One of those pathetic followers of Ba’alzamon who think he will give them immortality and power? I follow no one. There is one man I could stand beside, but I do not follow.”

The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 20 "Visitations" -- Mat Cauthon point of view; with Selene/Mierin

Just as Rand al'Thor could recognize who Mierin is, by only looking into the soul of her eyes, in TofM book. Mierin is able to do the very same, recognize souls by looking into a person's eyes.

Not with that, certainly,” she added, grimacing at Callandor. “There are only two more powerful that a man can use. One at least, I know, still exists. No, Lews Therin. I will not trust you yet with that.”

“Stop calling me that,” he growled. “My name is Rand. Rand al’Thor.”

“You are Lews Therin Telamon. Oh, physically, nothing is the same except your height, but I would know who is behind those eyes even if I’d found you in your cradle.” She laughed suddenly.


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 9 "Decision" -- Rand point of view; with Mierin


Moridin on the other hand prefers Cows to Humans.... :o
Moridin evens knows Mierin betrayed Asmodean to Rand al'Thor's side, as is implied in TofM book (Graendal point of view).

Moridin is a torturing terrorist, not a new lover of Mierin's.
Moridin seeks death; Mierin seeks love.

sheikh chilli
12-28-2010, 06:23 PM
Just wait until Gawyn kills Rand.

oh the uproar would be delicious to watch. Dragonmount forums would probably crash!

Terez
12-28-2010, 07:26 PM
oh the uproar would be delicious to watch. Dragonmount forums would probably crash!
And then shall Theoryland stand among the ashes, immortal.