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New Futurist Man
12-21-2010, 08:05 AM
“‘Have you ever wondered why Callandor is so often called a ‘fearful blade’ or ‘the blade of ruin’ in the prophecies?…There’s a phrase in the Jendai Prophecy..it says ‘and the Blade will bind him by twain.’..I think it might make you weak, open you to attack, if you use it.”
Towers of Midnight, A Storm of Light [page 506-507]

“What did you see?” Rand asked [Min] softly.
“Callandor, held in a fist. The hand looks to be made of onyx.”
Towers of Midnight, A Testing [page 746]
Min’s opinion that Callandor might make it’s user weak and open to attack is interesting when compared with her viewing of Callandor held in a fist "made of onyx"!?

Maybe the ‘him’ in will ‘bind him by twain’ doesn’t refer to the Dragon Reborn at all - but the Dark One; and in the context of his drawing the One Power through Callandor, possibly after knocking it from Rand’s grasp, in the few moments when the One Power still coarses through it.

Question: What effect would drawing the One Power have on the Dark One?

Answer: If the theory is correct, and according to Min’s reading of Prophecy - something nasty. (From his perspective anyway.)

Its possible the One Power if drawn by the Dark One himself would have a coruscating - maybe even fatal effect on him. Judging by his nature, and the fact that everything he embodies is in complete counterpoint to the Creator and the One Power - his pulling a Callandor-amount of the One Power into his very person may have some interesting consequences...

FelixPax
12-21-2010, 09:14 AM
Min’s opinion that Callandor might make it’s user weak and open to attack is interesting when compared with her viewing of Callandor held in a fist "made of onyx"!?

When I first read that Min Viewing, I immediately thought of the similarity of another prior scene. A scene when Nynaeve, Elayne each were using "Need" in the World of Dreams:

“Put your chin down. Neither will I, if there’s anything we can do about it. We might as well get on with this.” Linking hands with Elayne, Nynaeve closed her eyes. Need. She hoped some part of her had some notion what it was they needed. Maybe nothing would happen. Need. Suddenly everything seemed to slide around her; she felt Tel’aran’rhiod tilt and swoop.

Her eyes sprang open immediately. Each step using need was taken blind, of necessity, and while each took you closer to what you sought, any one could drop you down in a pit of vipers, or a lion disturbed at its kill could bite your leg off.

There were no lions, yet what there was was disturbing. It was bright midday, but that did not bother her; time flowed differently here. She and Elayne were holding hands in a cobblestone street, surrounded by buildings of brick and stone. Elaborate cornices and friezes decorated houses and shops alike. Ornate cupolas decorated tile rooftops, and bridges of stone or wood arched across the street, sometimes three or four stories up. Heaps of garbage, old clothes and broken furniture stood piled on street corners, and rats scurried about by the score, sometimes pausing to chitter fearless challenges at them. People dreaming themselves to the brink of Tel’aran’rhiod flickered in and out of existence. A man fell shrieking from one of the bridges and vanished before he hit the cobblestones. A howling woman in a torn dress ran a dozen paces toward them before she too winked out. Truncated screams and shouts echoed through the streets, and sometimes coarse laughter with a maniacal edge.

“I don’t like this,” Elayne said in a worried tone.

In the distance, a great bone-white shaft reared above the city, far overtopping other towers, many of them linked by bridges that made those where they were seem low. They were in Tar Valon, in the part where Nynaeve had caught a glimpse of Leane last time. Leane had not been very forthcoming about what she had been doing; increasing the awe and legend of the mysterious Aes Sedai, she had claimed with a smile.

“It doesn’t matter,” Nynaeve said stoutly. “Nobody in Tar Valon even knows about the World of Dreams. We won’t run into anybody.” Her stomach turned over as a bloody-faced man suddenly appeared, staggering toward them. He had no hands, only spurting stumps.

“That was not what I meant,” Elayne muttered.

“Let’s be on about it.” Nynaeve closed her eyes. Need.

Shift.


Lord of Chaos, Chapter 13 "Under the Dust" -- Nynaeve point of view, with Elayne in the World of Dreams.

Did Nynaeve, and Elayne visit the "Future"?
Is the man with two stumps a symbolic representative of Rand al'Thor?

Remember the opening scenes to "The Gathering Storm" book?
Heaps of garbage on the streets of Tar Valon...
Rats were also later found within Tar Valon...

Will Rand al'Thor get a Luke Skywalker treatment? A new robotic hand?


Or perhaps, that hand is Rand during a point in time when Moridin is in the act of attacking Rand's mind? His Soul? It's as if Moridin might seek to gain control over Rand al'Thor body? Perhaps to impress his mind upon Rand's own body & soul while holding Callandor?

Thus:

“Callandor, held in a fist. The hand looks to be made of onyx.”

Might well be Moridin's very own hand?
It's as if, this fight will be fought not in the 'True World'...
But in the World of Dreams.

Think of the similarities between the fight of Rand and Rahvin in the Dream of World. However in the case, the fight is more mental than physical... more a combat of the mind internally... with an outcome shown physically... in the various states of dress, found on Rand al'Thor.

FelixPax
12-21-2010, 09:40 AM
Nice efforts, New Futurist Man!
Thanks for opening up a new discussion. :)


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Maybe the ‘him’ in will ‘bind him by twain’ doesn’t refer to the Dragon Reborn at all - but the Dark One; and in the context of his drawing the [I]One Power through it, possibly after knocking it from Rand’s grasp, in the few moments when the One Power still coarses through it.

If Rand is the Light's champion, Moridin is the Shadow's champion.
Together Rand and Moridin are two of the very same kind. Yet opposites.
Hence, the use of the word 'twain (http://goo.gl/4ehJH)' found in the Jendai Prophecy.

What does this mean?

Moridin is a Dragon, as Rand al'Thor is a Dragon.
Each is a destroyer, just as Rand's own L.T.T. voice has claimed previously.

What else does this mean, in terms of limitations?

Very likely Each draws from the very same well of Saidin.
This is the very reason, why Moridin has not choosen to channel saidin, and prefers to solo channel the True Power. If Moridin channeled saidin, Rand will know immediately. Or at least that's how one theory claim attempts to explain the ultimate cause of Rand's channeling dizziness problem.


Now Rand already has a direct connection to the Dark One, well since his battle against Asmodean in Rhuidean. Rand did become one with the "Steel Cords; Black Cords" in his Void (TSR book).

I guess if one believes Moridin is becoming the Dark One literally... as Graendal's point of view seems to suggest in "Tower of Midnight" book... then it is logical to assume a battle between Moridin and Rand... it is really ultimately between Rand and the Dark One.


A Further Question

If the Dark One becomes a man, in the form of Moridin... what would occur after the Bore is re-sealed? Would the Dark One have escaped his Fate of being tied to a place outside of Time?

Is this why Rand has to ultimately die during the Last Battle?
To stop the Dark One, Rand has to end his own Life?


Curiously a prior event occurred similar to this possibility, when Mordeth sought to escape the confines of Aridhol... to become the creature formerly known as Padan Fain Mordeth.
Aridhol physically was destroyed by Rand and Nynaeve using the Dark One's Taint... sealed to destruction... and yet the creature formerly known as Mordeth survives.

Resealing the Bore is not enough (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8C5NLfYdZaE)!

lord Mordeth
12-22-2010, 03:32 AM
The DO doesn't have a physical form, so I'm not sure how he'd knock Callandor from Rand's hand. Nor why he'd want or need to channel the OP.

But I do wonder about those two passages too. Min's reasoning in the first seems to be a non-sequitur. Rand being 'bound by twain' has no relation per se to his being open to attack; it simply seems to allude to Cadsuane's PoD assertion that Rand needs to be in a circle with two women, one of whom guides the flows. 'Bound by twain' sums that configuration up perfectly, and there's no reason Rand would be weaker in it if whoever is in control is skilled with weaves (which Nynaeve certainly is, and so are basically all the other main candidates).

What's more, why wouldn't Callandor be called a 'fearful blade'? Rand already decimated huge numbers of people with it in Altara, including many on his own side. The wildness from its lack of buffer, coupled with its immense power, seem plenty good enough to explain those epithets.

So overall, I guess what I'm saying is that this was a really clumsy way of alerting us to a further layer of jeopardy for Rand when he uses Callandor in aMoL. Should be fun when we actually get the book, but the setup is pretty 'dragged by the hair', as they say in French.

Weird Harold
12-22-2010, 06:57 AM
I suspect that the description of the hand as "Onyx" is a red herring -- of sorts:

Onyx is a cryptocrystalline form of quartz. The colors of its bands range from white to almost every color (save some shades, such as purple or blue). Commonly, specimens of onyx available contain bands of colors of white, tan, and brown.

Etymology

Onyx comes through Latin: onyx, from the Greek onyx meaning 'claw' or 'fingernail'. With its fleshtone color, onyx can be said to resemble a fingernail. The English word 'nail' is cognate with the Greek word. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onyx)

I know that most people probably, as I did, associate "Onyx" with famous and valuabe carvings of Black Onyx, but they are valuable precisely because that is the least common form of Onyx. Naturally, the association with "Black" leads to discussions of the Shadow and/or the only character that is described as 'Black' -- "a doll made of black porcelain," to be precise.

I think conjecture might better be directed at determining who might have or fashion a stone hand (that might possibly match Rand's complexion) and whether it is a prosthetic or attached to a complete stone figure, animated or otherwise.

Perhaps Callandor will be molded into hand of a statue instead of stabbed into the Stone -- perhaps the hand of a statue in a large fountain or lake to complete the parallel with Excalibur as returned to a (diembodied) hand in a lake.

New Futurist Man
12-22-2010, 07:42 AM
FelixPax: It's as if, this fight will be fought not in the 'True World'... But in the World of Dreams.
Agreed. Hopper says something to Perrin in TofM that the World of Dreams/Wolf Dream is the oldest kind of reality, existing before the material universe/waking world, a notion similiar to the belief of Tattvas (or levels of reality) found in Eastern religions. In this respect, the World of Dreams would be similiar to one of the higher Tattvas - not that of godhead itself - but a "location" were the creative principle hasn't petrified into the materiality we associate with the waking world and physical reality.

The assumption that the World of Dreams is just that - a World "designed" for Dreams - is obviously way of the mark. Its something way more than that, something barely understood even in the Age of Legends.

I've thought for a long time how fitting if Moridin and the Dragon's battle were to take place there. The notion of need purposely exercised by a character throws up some interesting possibilities, especially if exercised by a character as powerful as Moridin. Statements from Moridin like how foolish Rand saying he was going to kill the Dark One were makes you wonder exactly how much Moridin knows about the Wheel, the Dark One, even the Creator. He's the oldest human in existence, with hundreds of years of experience of the World of Dreams - who knows what he's capable of...
FelixPax: I guess if one believes Moridin is becoming the Dark One literally... as Graendal's point of view seems to suggest in "Tower of Midnight" book... then it is logical to assume a battle between Moridin and Rand... it is really ultimately between Rand and the Dark One.
My own take on that is, despite the growing similarity between Moridin and Dark One - they are two distinct beings, and will remain so. Just as Dragon and Creator are. A position which doesn't negate the depth to which Moridin has assumed the characteristics and, in some instances, the power of the Dark One. But I don't believe Moridin could embody the Dark One. He is able to channel the True Power - but the corrosive effects this has on him is there for all to see. Moridin is still just a creature of flesh. If the Dark One were to actually attempt possessing him it would probably just rub him out.

New Futurist Man
12-22-2010, 07:55 AM
lord Mordeth: The DO doesn't have a physical form, so I'm not sure how he'd knock Callandor from Rand's hand. Nor why he'd want or need to channel the OP.
The Dark One inhabits a region obviously beyond the normal physical parameters, so its unlikely through evolutionary pressure he's developed arms, hands, opposable thumbs etc but the text does relate that he possesses some anthropomorphic qualities, he can speak, albeit not in any ordinary way, does possess sentience, meaning the seat of his intelligence is obviously centered within whatever passes for his "body" etc.

Plus he's a god (by any other name) who's to say he can't simply manifest a body by a simple act of will?

The Dark One's picking up Callandor may just be as a means of ensuring the Dragon can no longer use it against him, not so he can wield it himself. And as the One Power often still pulses through Callandor for moments after its holder has released the Source, would explain how the One Power comes to fill the Dark One...

aynatal2000
12-22-2010, 12:28 PM
I thought that the black hand would either be (1) a power wrought item forged by Perrin or(2) the hand that Elaine and company found when searching for the bowl of winds or (3) a hand forged by Perrin but imbued by Egwene and changed to cuendillar.
Either of these would be the buffer that could help Rand in handling Callandor at the last battle.Just speculation.

Insane Ducky
12-22-2010, 05:55 PM
Callandor also is supposed to magnify the effect of the taint - does this mean it's somehow a conduit for the DO to affect the user?

I don't know how it would play out at that point...I don't think we know enough about the light hairnet Rand's got that seems to be protecting him from the Taint to know if it would affect anything else or has a limit...

Weird Harold
12-22-2010, 07:36 PM
I thought that the black hand would either be (1) a power wrought item ...

It is an Onyx hand and most Onyx isn't Black Onyx. That wouldn't keep it from being a power-wrough prosthetic.

Insane Ducky
12-22-2010, 08:09 PM
Sounds like someone needs to ask BS what color onyx is.

Weird Harold
12-22-2010, 08:24 PM
Sounds like someone needs to ask BS what color onyx is.
Wouldn't help -- he wouldn't need to even RAFO the question unless someone specifically asked what color the Onyx Fist is.

According to Wiki, it can be red, green, brown, black -- almost any color except purple or blue. Red Onyx is the only variant with a specific name -- Sardonyx -- so we can probably rule out Red, Blue or Purple.

Glen
12-22-2010, 10:39 PM
Just a thought, but isn't there speculation that cuendillar is white when made by women and black when made by men, thus explaining the seals being both black and white?

If this is true, perhaps the hand will be turned into cuendillar by an Asha'man, thus explaining its "onyx" colouring.

Further speculation, but what if the Cuendillar hand holding Callandor is actually used as a focal point for a new seal? Perhaps the "flaw" in Callandor is actually a side effect of whatever trait it is that would enable Callandor to act as a much more effective seal, and also help to undo the bore. Think of it as a kind of pattern-restoring seal.

Weird Harold pointed out the "excalibur returned to a disembodied hand in a lake". Maybe this is part of the whole idea - Callandor-in-hand is thrown into the ocean, or into a lake, where people cannot tamper with it while the pattern over the bore is "healed".

Weird Harold
12-22-2010, 10:54 PM
Just a thought, but isn't there speculation that cuendillar is white when made by women and black when made by men, thus explaining the seals being both black and white?

There has been such speculation, but it usually plays out to the tune of "The Merry-go-round Broke Down." (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Merry-Go-Round_Broke_Down) :D

The problem with applying it here is that the reasoning is that it was generally presumed that the Taint was the reason it came out black and that wouldn't be a factor here.

Terez
12-22-2010, 11:12 PM
Dunno about that. I never assumed it was the taint - just some kind of weird gender-specific thing. RJ liked that. It was probably the same problem with the copies Elayne made of the stone ring - she couldn't get the right colors because she didn't have a man.

GonzoTheGreat
12-23-2010, 06:15 AM
Just a thought, but isn't there speculation that cuendillar is white when made by women and black when made by men, thus explaining the seals being both black and white?There is such speculation, but it is pretty baseless. The E've is a form of cuendillar, it's black, and the damane did not seem to have any trouble duplicating it.

Marie Curie 7
12-23-2010, 12:33 PM
There is such speculation, but it is pretty baseless. The E've is a form of cuendillar, it's black, and the damane did not seem to have any trouble duplicating it.

You seem to be making an assumption that damane were employed to make copies of the Domination Band. However, given Brandon's comments right after TGS was released, that seems unlikely.

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Dallas Borders 14 November 2009 - Aubree Pham reporting

He would not confirm the Seanchan have the tech necessary to make cuendillar, or if ter'angreal copying and would skip the need to also make the copied item into cuendillar. He did say: "If the Seanchan had the knowledge of how to make cuendillar, don't you think we would have seen it by now?"

So the other copies of the Domination Band were more likely obtained through avenues other than damane.

Also, though Brandon didn't confirm or deny that men make black cuendillar, the notion was mentioned to him:

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Borders Dallas 14 November 2009 - Claireducky reporting

Question: Do the Seanchan know how to make cuendillar?

Brandon: You're trying to figure out if the collar Semirhage put on Rand is cuendillar. (this was a long convo so I can't remember all of it... I THINK he said the original had been made of cuendillar, and that the Seanchan had copies of it, but would not answer whether those were made of cuendillar as well. He wouldn't say if Rand was wearing a copy or the original, he said it didn't matter. And that he knew of at least two ways to destroy cuendillar-- The True Power and one other way. He looked thoughtful when Muirenn mentioned the theory that women make white cuendillar and men make black cuendillar, but wouldn't confirm or deny.

metaphor
12-23-2010, 12:43 PM
Wouldn't help -- he wouldn't need to even RAFO the question unless someone specifically asked what color the Onyx Fist is.

According to Wiki, it can be red, green, brown, black -- almost any color except purple or blue. Red Onyx is the only variant with a specific name -- Sardonyx -- so we can probably rule out Red, Blue or Purple.

Used as a color it means deep black though.


If that's the case, I'd say it could possibly refer to the darkness that will flow through Rand when he merges with Moridin and Fain.

Weird Harold
12-23-2010, 04:46 PM
Used as a color it means deep black though.

Min didn't use Onyx as a color, though. She used it as a material:

“What did you see?” Rand asked [Min] softly.
“Callandor, held in a fist. The hand looks to be made of onyx.”
Towers of Midnight, A Testing [page 746]

CreationEdge
12-25-2010, 09:16 AM
And, one would assume Min probably is as clueless about all the different types of onyx as the rest of us, and meant "black rock."

GonzoTheGreat
12-25-2010, 09:29 AM
Nah, Min is from a mining town, so she knows all about rocks.

Frenzy
12-31-2010, 09:04 PM
What about Taim's sigil: the gauntleted fist gripping three lightning bolts. And Taim's current love of the colors black and red. Correlation or red herring?

morat'corlm
12-31-2010, 10:20 PM
I've always been curious about that sigil. I don't think we've gotten a firm explanation for its meaning quite yet; yes, the obvious symbols are obvious, but it's curious that two, often-rival Forsaken, plus a Forsaken protege, would adopt it.

I wonder if this had some influence in its design, and if there was some personal story or joke for RJ there:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/96/US_Army_Signal-Corps-Coat-Of-Arms.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_Corps_%28United_States_Army%29) Edit: something further that's interesting: The Imperial Banner is a wide border of royal blue around a white box inside which a golden hawk in flight clutches three lightning bolts in its claws.

Anyway, I still suspect the onyx fist is a metaphorical description of the Domination Bond, which will tie into various Dreams of Egwene's and the Karaethon prophecy for Tuon.

Weird Harold
12-31-2010, 10:48 PM
What about Taim's sigil: the gauntleted fist gripping three lightning bolts. And Taim's current love of the colors black and red. Correlation or red herring?
Interesting thought.

Wasn't the guantleted fist with three lightening bolts also seen in Tear as Bel'al's sigil? Another connection to Callandor?

FelixPax
01-01-2011, 10:19 AM
And Taim's current love of the colors black and red. Correlation or red herring?

Black & Red were also the Colors which both Moghedien, Cyndane were commanded to wear by Moridin.
Black & Red are Moridin's livery colors, which is one reason Moghedien loathes her clothes in Ebou Dar. Graendal once thought Moghedien never followed anyone willingly, so livery is proof she's someone else's pawn.


Taim is doing what Joiya Byir once implied previously (TSR, Chapter 5 'Questioners'). It's no surprise his colors of Red & Black are the same as Moridin's livery too.


What about Taim's sigil: the gauntleted fist gripping three lightning bolts.

Artur Hawkwing old signal also included Lightning Bolts...
It's as if Moridin, and various Forsaken want to become each the next Hawkwing.


Mondwin, Luthair Paendrag*(LEW-thair PAY-ehn-DRAG MONdwihn):

Son of Artur Hawkwing, he commanded the armies Hawkwing sent across the Aryth Ocean. His banner was a golden, spread-winged hawk clutching lightning bolts.


Be'lal did use a similar lightning bolt symbol:

There were few people in the muddy street, as if everyone had decided it was much better to be somewhere else, and those few scurried by on the other side without a glance at the shiny, black-lacquered coach standing behind a team of six matched whites with tall white plumes on their bridles. A coachman dressed like the soldiers, but without armor or sword, sat on the seat, and another opened the door as they appeared from the house. Before he did, Nynaeve saw the sigil painted there. A silver-gauntleted fist clutching jagged lightning bolts.

She supposed it was High Lord Samon’s sign—A Darkfriend, he must be, if he deals with the Black Ajah. The Light burn him!—but she was more interested in the man who dropped to his knees in the mud at their appearance. “Burn you, Sandar, why—?” She jumped as something that felt like a stick of wood struck her across the shoulders.

Source: The Dragon Reborn book

GonzoTheGreat
01-01-2011, 10:49 AM
Artur Hawkwing old signal also included Lightning Bolts...
It's as if Moridin, and various Forsaken want to become each the next Hawkwing.

Be'lal did use a similar lightning bolt symbol:
Of course, it is possible that Hawkwing was influenced by Ishamael when it came to choosing that lightning bolt symbol. We know that Ishamael was messing around with Hawkwing in some ways, anyway. And when Be'lal appeared, he may very well have wanted to provide some misdirection, by letting people think he was hoping to be a new Hawkwing instead of an old Forsaken.
So all of this could easily have come from one single source: the Heart of the Dark.

FelixPax
01-01-2011, 01:58 PM
Of course, it is possible that Hawkwing was influenced by Ishamael when it came to choosing that lightning bolt symbol. We know that Ishamael was messing around with Hawkwing in some ways, anyway.

True, Ishamael did manipulate Hawkwing and at least one of his sons... the Seanchan one... both before and after the Trolloc Wars.


However what was one Artur Hawkwing's old names, according to Verin?


Hammer of the Light

“ ‘The Watchers wait on Toman Head,’ ” Verin went on. “There are a few who still cling to the old belief that the armies Artur Hawkwing sent across the Aryth Ocean will return one day, though after all this time . . . ” She gave a disdainful sniff. “The Do Miere A’vron, the Watchers Over the Waves, still have a . . . community is the best word, I suppose . . . on Toman Head, at Falme. And one of the old names for Artur Hawkwing was Hammer of the Light.”


The Great Hunt, Chapter "Blood Calls Blood" -- Moiraine point of view; with Verin, Siuan

If Mat Cauthon is truly the reborn soul of Artur Hawkwing, who will Mat Cauthon ultimately lead into battle?

Seanchan channelers who wear a symbol of lightning bolts across their chests.

One was slender, short as any Cairhienin and darker than any Tairen, in a blue dress that stopped well short of her ankles; silver lightning forked across red panels on her breast and the sides of her wide, divided skirts.

A Crown of Swords, Chapter 26 -- Morgase point of view; with a der'sul'dam, damane, Suroth in Amador

Tuon did let Mat Cauthon have control over two Sul'dam... Bethamin, Seta... who are to be trained as Aes Sedai channelers.

Mat Cauthon has previously claimed that Sul'dam & Damane are Aes Sedai, because they are all channelers, once to Verin Sedai on Toman Head.




And when Be'lal appeared, he may very well have wanted to provide some misdirection, by letting people think he was hoping to be a new Hawkwing instead of an old Forsaken.
So all of this could easily have come from one single source: the Heart of the Dark.

Perhaps Be'lal like Ishamael each tried to guide the Pattern into their own making?


Be'lal, Taim by co-opting Artur Hawkwing's and L.T.T.'s symbols of lightning?


The creation of Slayer, by Ishamael & the Dark One to attempt to co-opt an Aelfinn foretelling claim, "The two must be as one"?



"The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die."

The Shadow Rising book -- Rand al'Thor point of view

The merging of Luc soul and Isam's soul into one, would be an attempt by the Shadow to force prophecy to be fulfilled in guidance to its own desires? (Yes, I assume Moridin has visited the Eelfinn at least once.)


While who's love child might have partially met "The two must be as one" prophecy?

Prince Caar "Caar One-Hand" married Rhea... who gave birth to Aemon "King Aemon of Manetheren". Thus, the soul of Aemon has blood ties to Borderlands & to Manetheren.


Granted that whole Aelfinn given prophecy to Rand al'Thor is loaded with multiple meanings. Perhaps, it is one of the most complex prophecies known in whole the series? Vexing, for sure.

“The story is too long to tell in full, and too grim, and only fragments are known, even in Tar Valon. How Thorin’s son, Caar, came to win Aridhol back to the Second Covenant, and Balwen sat his throne, a withered shell with the light of madness in his eyes, laughing while Mordeth smiled at his side and ordered the deaths of Caar and the embassy as Friends of the Dark. How Prince Caar came to be called Caar One-Hand. How he escaped the dungeons of Aridhol and fled alone to the Borderlands with Mordeth’s unnatural assassins at his heels. How there he met Rhea, who did not know who he was, and married her, and set the skein in the Pattern that led to his death at her hands, and hers by her own hand before his tomb, and the fall of Aleth-loriel.


The Eye of the World -- Rand point of view; with Moiraine speaking, Lan, Perrin, Mat Cauthon, Egwene, Thom

Aemon is most likely Mat Cauthon's soul.



If true, Mat has a bit of work still to do... to gain the Borderlander Rulers favorite in AMoL. Which I guess means gaining Rand al'Thor favorite, in AMoL book, considering what is known to have occurred in TofM book at Far Madding.


At least Mat Cauthon should be able to understand Borderlanders... based on this scene below among others:


Birgitte gave Elayne a fond look, but it was to Mat she spoke. “I will,” she said. “Honor’s truth.”

Mat tugged at his coat uncomfortably. He still was not sure how much he had told her while drunk. Light, but the woman could soak it up like dry sand. Even so, he gave the proper response for a Barashandan lord, accepting her pledge. “The honor of blood; the truth of blood.” Birgitte nodded, and from the startled looks he received from Nynaeve and Elayne, she still kept his secrets close.


A Crown of Swords, Chapter 39 -- Mat Cauthon point of view; with Nynaeve, Elayne, Birgitte, Lan, Aviendha et la in Ebou Dar palace


Mat Cauthon unlike Artur Hawkwing is now protected from Ishamael's touch in his Dreams, now, because of a Foxhead medallion.

In truth, he had gained more than the scar that day. The silver foxhead for one, its single eye shaded to look like the ancient symbol of Aes Sedai. Sometimes he laughed so hard over that medallion that his ribs hurt. He did not trust any Aes Sedai, so he even bathed and slept with the thing around his neck. The world was a funny place—funny peculiar, usually.


Lord of Chaos, Chapter 5 -- Mat Cauthon point of view


Egwene al'Vere as Amyrlin Seat should notice Mat's unique Foxhead medallion in terms of its symbolism. Just as Rand al'Thor once recognized Bran al'Vere silver medallion...

As the last creak of the axle faded, Bran al’Vere appeared from the inn, seeming as always to step too lightly for a man of his girth, nearly double that of anyone else in the village. A smile split his round face, which was topped by a sparse fringe of gray hair. The innkeeper was in his shirtsleeves despite the chill, with a spotless white apron wrapped around him. A silver medallion in the form of a set of balance scales hung on his chest.

The medallion, along with the full-size set of scales used to weigh the coins of the merchants who came down from Baerlon for wool or tabac, was the symbol of the Mayor’s office. Bran only wore it for dealing with the merchants and for festivals, feastdays, and weddings.


The Eye of the World -- Rand point of view; with Tam al'Thor, Bran al'Vere, Mat Cauthon, Bela


Eerily Bran al'Vere medallion symbolizes the "scales" of "justice"... a symbol of leadership....

Mat Cauthon's medallion symbolizes the same... justice & a leadership role.



A Foxhead who's very symbol of the ancient Aes Sedai is foretold to conquer.

In the dirt Urien scraped a circle with his spearpoint, then drew across it a sinuous line. “It is said that under this sign, he will conquer.”

Ingtar frowned at the symbol, no recognition on his face, but Mat muttered something coarsely under his breath, and Perrin felt his mouth go dry. The ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai.


The Great Hunt, Chapter 28 "A New Thread in the Pattern"-- Perrin point of view; with Urien, Mat Cauthon, Verin Sedai, Uno, Ragan, Ingtar, Masema

GonzoTheGreat
01-02-2011, 05:10 AM
If Mat Cauthon is truly the reborn soul of Artur Hawkwing, who will Mat Cauthon ultimately lead into battle?Do you mean that just like Saddam Hussain, Hawkwing also had a body double, and it's that one who showed up when Mat blew the Horn?
Otherwise it would be rather hard to explain why Hawkwing answered the call of the Horn if he had already been reborn and was walking around.

FelixPax
01-03-2011, 10:14 AM
Do you mean that just like Saddam Hussain, Hawkwing also had a body double, and it's that one who showed up when Mat blew the Horn?

Otherwise it would be rather hard to explain why Hawkwing answered the call of the Horn if he had already been reborn and was walking around.

Chuckles... I was beginning to wonder when someone would point this very thing out. It's a fundamentally important question and a paradox indeed. :cool:


How can a person talk to oneself?


Loial believed this was possible, based by the knowledge spoken to him by Mierin in a Mirror World. (The Great Hunt, Chapter 16 "In the Mirror of Darkness" - Rand pov).

Separately, look at the use of Hawkwing's specifically spoken words to Rand, Mat, Perrin, Hurin at Falme...

“The Pattern weaves itself around our necks like halters,” Artur Hawkwing said.


What does Hawkwing mean by "our necks"?
Did Hawkwing already know he'd get hung by the Eelfinn in Rhuidean? Or Not?
Similar to some of the advanced knowledge which Birgitte has, about Rand's lovers? All of them will trouble Rand....
Is that partially why there are Precepts, for Heroes of the Horn?
Remember what Birgitte claimed: "Time?"..."We have all of time."
Well, Artur Hawkwing is a person included with Birgitte in this very claim. Hawkwing knows of his own future.


Jordan already played with the meaning of "we", with Rand al'Thor's character... Lews Therin, Rand al'Thor.


Interestingly enough it seems that Mat Cauthon is the only Hero, who talks with himself at Falme of the four to speak with the Heroes. Why is that? Perhaps it's because both Rand al'Thor & Perrin Aybara each have Dream on their own previous to Falme? While neither Mat Cauthon or perhaps Hurin has directly entered the Tel'aran'rhiod on their own. Is that a distinction enough, for why?


Uno's possible identity as a future Gaidal Cain... is yet another vexing question too. As both Birgitte & Gaidal Cain were present at Falme (TGH), yet Cain wasn't spun out until much later (ToFH?). However... if Uno is Gaidal Cain... it would hint at some limitations to total scope of Birgitte's advance knowledge.


Moving back to the idea of how Mat Cauthon might be able to called to himself at Falme--Artur Hawkwing. If one's opposed to this very idea, how when does one explain the identity of Olver? Olver who is a 'younger version' of Mat Cauthon? 'A younger version' without the life experiences of Aridhol, the red ruby dagger, Mierin, Aelfinn & Eelfinn, et la....

Yet Olver has spoken to Mat, a younger to a older soul. Two souls, who are same, however different because of their separate life experiences and ages. Even Daerid seems to notice.

Olver is not even the first person to be forced into the 'True World'.

Rhea own life story (tEotW) suggests that Mierin's own soul was 'pushed' back into the True World--as a type of clone or twin (Not sure what to called it). So she could marry Prince Caar and give birth to Aemon. A son who's soul is tied by Blood to both the Borderlands and to Manetheren.

Why might Pattern need to do this?
It would connect Rand, Mierin, Mat, Tuon, Berelain, Tam al'Thor souls together--as a type of loose extended family among others.



Gonzo... next I know, I'm going to be referred to as FelixMoonBeam... ;)

As Mat Cauthon can also see himself in the Nightly Sky Above... when he counted Constellations & Stars as a kid growing up. Who is "Hawkwing's Shield"? Mat Cauthon's soul. The place where his soul lives, in the Worlds of the Sky.



Stars can brighten one's night
Stars can breath,
Stars can bleed,
Stars can die,
Stars can live again.


Who can outshine the Stars in the dead of night?
The Moon...
Mierin.


Just as Moon reflects the light of the Sun, Silver jewelry reflects the Light.
In a parallel to Miao society, Silver is seen as repelling evil.
Henceforth a reason why Mierin is noticeable lacking her Silver jewelry, during her imprisonment in TofM book.

Mik
01-06-2011, 07:18 AM
@Felix.
Hawkwing's personal sigil never had the Golden Hawk in flight clutching three lightning bolts. (It was just a Golden Hawk in flight)
The Imperial Seamchan sigil isn't Hawkwings sign; it is "Luthair's legacy that still stands whole and strong to honor him."

It was Hawkwings oldest son -that led the "Seanchan expedition/ invasion forces"- whos personal sigil had the (most likely Shadow-influence added) lightning bolts.

Yes, Hawkwing himself was influenced by Ishamael. But his personal sigil wasn't.
It is Luthair and Luthair's sigil that mimics the Shadows sigil of the hand that holds lignting bolts. (three or less)


It might make more sense to see Mat as "Luthair Paendrag-reborn" then Artur Paendrag.
Might even be easier to come full-circle then all the twisting and turning with Artur Hawkwings appearance at Falme...?
I'm betting my left kidneyeye it would make a more plausable theory then Mat being Artur-reborn...

ScoundrelTheToy
01-15-2011, 09:05 PM
TOM - A Testing
A glowing sword, Callandor, being gripped in a black hand.

What if Min is mistaken about the Callandor part and it's actually Justice and the black hand is Tuons? Or is she right about Callandor and this is showing us that Tuon will be in the circle with Rand?

morat'corlm
01-15-2011, 10:12 PM
I highly doubt Min could be mistaken about the sword glowing, which strongly implies that it's Callandor.

It might be a sign that Tuon will participate in a circle with Rand, though I'm not sure the hand is hers; she might have a "black hand" but an "onyx fist" is stretching things. Of course, I think the onyx fist represents the Domination Band, so what do I know about stretches.

finn
01-16-2011, 02:37 AM
If Min knows what a viewing means, then it comes true. Her interpretation is the key and she doesn't make mistakes. So it is Callandor.

finn
01-16-2011, 02:46 AM
“‘Have you ever wondered why Callandor is so often called a ‘fearful blade’ or ‘the blade of ruin’ in the prophecies?…There’s a phrase in the Jendai Prophecy..it says ‘and the Blade will bind him by twain.’..I think it might make you weak, open you to attack, if you use it.”
I think the black fist ties in with the 'bind him by twain' bit. If Rand can't control the circle using Callandor, it leaves him open to attack and dependant on the women with him. Except he can channel the true power in a circle, as he did when Semirhage had him in the domination band. The way he speaks of answering the Borderlanders slaps with balefire shows it could still prove to be a temptation. The viewing might be a Tel’aran’rhiod interpretation of what happens to him as the true power takes him over, similar to what Perrin witnessed.

Terez
01-16-2011, 04:35 AM
If Min knows what a viewing means, then it comes true.
Yes, but that has nothing to do with this, since she did not know what it meant. The bit you're looking for is the fact that the words come with the viewing (whether she can interpret them or not).

Edit: thread merge. Hope it's not too confusing.

ScoundrelTheToy
01-16-2011, 05:04 AM
That's what I was questioning was her interpertation. The viewing will come true, no doubt. Min's not aware of Justice being important (contrary to what some/most readers think). So any viewing she has involving a sword she's automatically going to interpet it as Callandor due to lack of knowledge.

I'm pretty sure Justice shines as well, doesn't it? At least it's referred to as a 'mirror' in TGH, but that's all I can recall about it at the moment off the top of my head.

GonzoTheGreat
01-16-2011, 05:13 AM
Well, a reason for assuming that it actually was Callandor would be that she saw the viewing right when Rand touched Callandor while she herself was holding the sword that is not a sword.

ScoundrelTheToy
01-16-2011, 05:27 AM
Well, a reason for assuming that it actually was Callandor would be that she saw the viewing right when Rand touched Callandor while she herself was holding the sword that is not a sword.

Who knows, if Robert Jordan/Brandon wanted to throw us off then that would be the place to put it. That's why I asked that because it's amid all this talk of Callandor. If you're going to sneak stuff through a reader, throw in a foretelling about something that you're talking about right then in the narritive and the reader will go along with it without thinking twice. I did initially, then stopped myself and questioned it and that's why I've brought it up lol. It can go either way though. Authors can be tricksome like that and Robert Jordan most of us all, burn me!

Something else to think about is I don't think Tuon will be in the circle of three with Rand. Nynaeve and Moiraine (I think she has memories of Lanfear) seem most appropriate and the literal translation of that viewing barring all others is that Tuon would be in that circle (the red herring).

I'm pretty sure Moiraine knows that Matrim has memories of those that visited the Tower. In their conversation after the escape, Moiraine subtly (when she says he should have good reason to fear the One Power and advising him of Warder bond) indicates that she's aware of Matrim's battle prowess as a General.

GonzoTheGreat
01-16-2011, 05:57 AM
I'm pretty sure Moiraine knows that Matrim has memories of those that visited the Tower. In their conversation after the escape, Moiraine subtly (when she says he should have good reason to fear the One Power and advising him of Warder bond) indicates that she's aware of Matrim's battle prowess as a General.She already knew about that. She told him before, in Cairhien, right before he mentioned the death of Morgase.

Zombie Sammael
01-16-2011, 08:08 AM
I had always thought the buffer that Callandor lacked was to do with the amount you could channel through it. I assumed that "normal" sa'angreal and angreal prevented the wielder from drawing so much of the Power that, even through the device, they could burn themselves out, "the buffer that makes [them] ...safe to use" whereas Callandor lacked this and the user could accidentally burn themselves out whilst attempting to use it.

finn
01-16-2011, 01:00 PM
Yes, but that has nothing to do with this, since she did not know what it meant. The bit you're looking for is the fact that the words come with the viewing (whether she can interpret them or not).But she did know what it meant since she specifically saw Callandor in her viewing and her statement following it confirmed that. There was no suggested ambiguity about what she was seeing. One could say the black hand was interpreted as being one of onyx in her wording but the sword was Callandor both in vision and statement. Had she not known for sure what the glowing sword was, she'd have remained silent or her POV would have hinted at doubt.

She glanced at him, and a viewing sprang to life above him. A glowing sword, Callandor, being gripped in a black hand. She gasped.

"What did you see?" Rand asked softly.

"Callandor, held in a fist. The hand looks to be made of onyx."

In contrast, she was silent about the vision of Dragonmount, even though her interpretation was correct. You can see her doubts play out.

The air shimmered above Rand, and a mountain appeared there. Viewings were so common around Rand that Min usually forced herself to ignore them unless they were new—though she did spend time some days trying to pick them all out and sort through them. This one was new, and it caught her attention. The towering mountain was blasted out on one side, making a jagged hole down the slope. Dragonmount? It was cloaked in dark shadows, as if shaded by clouds high above. That was odd; whenever she'd seen the mountain, it had reached higher than the clouds themselves.

Dragonmount in shadows. It would be important to Rand in the future. Was that a tiny prick of light shining from the heavens down onto the point of the mountain?

Marie Curie 7
01-16-2011, 02:35 PM
But she did know what it meant since she specifically saw Callandor in her viewing and her statement following it confirmed that. There was no suggested ambiguity about what she was seeing. One could say the black hand was interpreted as being one of onyx in her wording but the sword was Callandor both in vision and statement. Had she not known for sure what the glowing sword was, she'd have remained silent or her POV would have hinted at doubt.

The question of meaning is not about whether or not Min saw Callandor - she said it was Callandor, so we know that it was - she was certain about that part of the viewing. The point, however, is that she did not understand the meaning or significance of the viewing, and she indicated that when Rand asked her:

TITLE: Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: 51 - A Testing

Rand reached out, touching the weapon. She glanced at him, and a viewing sprang to life above him. A glowing sword, Callandor, being gripped in a black hand. She gasped.

"What did you see?" Rand asked softly.

"Callandor, held in a fist. The hand looks to be made of onyx."

"Any idea what it means?"

She shook her head.

finn
01-17-2011, 12:37 AM
The question of meaning is not about whether or not Min saw Callandor - she said it was Callandor, so we know that it was - she was certain about that part of the viewing. The point, however, is that she did not understand the meaning or significance of the viewing, and she indicated that when Rand asked her:

Oh ok. That's what Terez was referring to. Thanks, I didn't get that. It is Callandor then. The question of meaning however would imply the viewing may not come true, right?

I always thought that applied to the vague viewings that require it, like auras, colors and symbolic imagery. That the actual vision of a future event may have only one literal interpretation and meaning, without any greater hints at its significance or the circumstances surrounding it. Might be why I ignored that last part.

Terez
01-17-2011, 01:19 AM
The point is that all of the imagery is symbolic. Everything she sees is important in some way - she never has a viewing that has nothing to say beyond 'Oh, you're going to have a beard one day' - and either she knows what it means, or she doesn't. The words that she uses to describe a viewing are a part of the viewing whether she understands it or not, though it doesn't prevent her from using different words to describe a viewing in the future (such as her saying that Alivia was going to kill Rand, when the words that actually came with the viewing were that she was going to 'help' Rand die).

Confusing, I know. I only brought it up because of what you said in the first place, which more or less comes from this:

TITLE - The Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 1 - Seeds of Shadow

"Don't try to dissemble," the Amyrlin said sharply. "Do you think this is the first time I ever saw a woman afraid for her man's life? You might as well admit it."

Min squirmed on her chair. Siuan's eyes dug at her, knowing and impatient. "All right," she muttered finally, "I'll tell you all of it, and much good it does either of us. The first time I ever saw Rand, I saw three women's faces, and one of them was mine. I've never seen anything about myself before or since, but I knew what it meant. I was going to fall in love with him. All three of us were."

"Three. The other two. Who are they?"

Min gave her a bitter smile. "The faces were blurred; I don't know who they are."

"Nothing to say that he would love you in return?"

"Nothing! He has never looked at me twice. I think he sees me as... as a sister. So don't think you can use me as leash on him, because it will not work!"

"Yet you do love him."

"I don't have any choice." Min tried to make her voice less sullen. "I tried treating it as a joke, but I can't laugh anymore. You may not believe me, but when I know what it means, it happens."
The truth is that it happens whether or not she knows what it means. Problem is, she can't tell anyone for sure what will happen unless she can interpret the viewing.

So, we know that Alivia will help Rand die in some way, but we do not know that Alivia will kill Rand, because Min does not know that.

Is that more clear? In this analogy, Callandor=Alivia, you might say.

Juan
01-17-2011, 01:44 AM
I think Min's dislike of Alivia makes a sort of sense... but not really, you'd think Min would be smart enough to realize what she saw. After all she said Alivia would HELP Rand die. Maybe it's just me, but this implies that it's a good thing. I'm still trying to decide as to how she will help him, but I don't know. I think it'll be a good thing and I don't see why Min is mad about it. Alivia doesn't seem like a DF or an evil person to me. "Help" is a benevolent kind of word.. it just seems to me like it'd be a good thing what Alivia's doing.

Terez
01-17-2011, 02:10 AM
Min is just being irrational because of her feelings for Rand. She's known since she met him that he was going to die, but she doesn't want to admit it.

finn
01-17-2011, 02:29 AM
The point is that all of the imagery is symbolic.
.
.
.
Is that more clear? In this analogy, Callandor=Alivia, you might say.

Yes, thank you for clearing that up! :)

Fie
01-18-2011, 02:36 AM
Nah, Min is from a mining town, so she knows all about rocks.

She is, isn't she. And if she sees onyx as a multi-coloured stone, maybe that could be a new hand for Rand fashion Amyrlin stole :) I have to say I'd appreciate Nynaeve to do something about his hand, because, I mean, she can do anything, so... Of course that would somehow ruin the loss of Rand's hand, Mat's eye...so probably not :( But an all-ajah-coloured hand with callandor would at least make a nice after-TG-monument.

GonzoTheGreat
01-18-2011, 05:12 AM
Plus, having seven fingers on one hand would make Rand rather special. Mat's eye could change color depending on his mood.
Now what to do about Perrin, I wonder?

Terez
01-18-2011, 05:16 AM
Paint his toenails.

Fie
01-18-2011, 06:16 AM
I´d prefer the beard. Though, if Faile is going to die anytime soon, he could let himself become more wolfy and run around barefooted, I´d be content with his toenails.

knightofround
01-27-2011, 04:14 AM
Hm, this might be a bit of a stretch but...does anyone know if angreal can magnify TP as well as OP?

I'm just thinking that if sealing the bore for good requires TP as well as OP, Rand is the only light-side guy who could channel it. Sure a woman leading a circle could meld saidin+saidar for him, but who knows about the TP?

I'm guessing that if the TP *can* pour through Callendor, it would behave just like tainted Saidin did.

GonzoTheGreat
01-27-2011, 04:28 AM
Q: Can Moridin use a male angreal if he channels the True Power?
RJ: No.Seems pretty definitive.

The Immortal One
01-28-2011, 11:00 PM
Technically, Callandor is a Sa'angreal. And the question specifically says Moridin, not Rand or any other channellers.

Weird Harold
01-29-2011, 07:09 AM
Technically, Callandor is a Sa'angreal. And the question specifically says Moridin, not Rand or any other channellers.
Mind your fingers when you start chopping logic that fine. :rolleyes:

I suspect that trying to Channel the wrong power through an angreal/sa'angreal would be very similar to applying a DC input to an AC amplifier -- it lets all of the magic smoke out; usually all at once.

da'caballien
02-07-2011, 03:44 PM
Maybe Rand will channel the TP, Saidar, and Saidin through Callandor and it will kill him. Then he will rise 3 days later, of course.

New Futurist Man
02-08-2011, 07:56 AM
On the subject of the True Power and Sa'angreal: would it be necessary to magnify the TP? Rand likened the flow of TP he channelled to a Choedan Kal-sized amount of One Power - so, from this anyway, it would appear the TP doesn't need any magnification.

Ofcourse its possible Rand meant the flow of TP was as difficult to control as One Power channelled through the Choedan Kal - can't remember the exact wording - but I favour the former.

Its possible also that channelling the TP always means a Choedan Kal-sized amount - except where a channeller has been, in some way, restricted, like in the case of Graendal, who could only manage a trickle.

maacaroni
02-08-2011, 08:16 AM
Some thoughts:

-The onyx hand does not have to be Moridin/Shadow..it could be the Seanchan or the black tower

- The conduit is mashadar and Padan Fain. I am prepared to bet cash-money on this.

GonzoTheGreat
02-08-2011, 09:49 AM
The onyx hand could be Fain's, which he keeps cutting for some suspicious reason.

Marie Curie 7
02-18-2011, 11:27 PM
On the subject of the True Power and Sa'angreal: would it be necessary to magnify the TP? Rand likened the flow of TP he channelled to a Choedan Kal-sized amount of One Power - so, from this anyway, it would appear the TP doesn't need any magnification.

Ofcourse its possible Rand meant the flow of TP was as difficult to control as One Power channelled through the Choedan Kal - can't remember the exact wording - but I favour the former.

Its possible also that channelling the TP always means a Choedan Kal-sized amount - except where a channeller has been, in some way, restricted, like in the case of Graendal, who could only manage a trickle.

The True Power is not more powerful than the One Power:

Budapest Q&A - April 2003

Q: And so the other Forsaken seem to be afraid of using the True Power?

RJ: Well, they are, because they know this; they will use it when they have to, but they limit it, because they know that if you use it enough to let the saa begin to appear, then you are on a spiral and once they begin appearing, they begin appearing more often. And eventually, unless you are given immortality by the Dark One, you are dead. Now, the thing is, they don't wanna die. This is really great, it is a really great honor to be given the ability to tap into the True Power. Which is not inherently stronger than the One Power. It's not that it is stronger in any way. It is just something that does not have some of the limitations of the One Power. Other people can't feel you embracing it, or using it, like the One Power.

The True Power is more addictive, though, so the rush Rand felt may have contributed to his incorrect feeling that the True Power was stronger:

TITLE: Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 25 - Mindtrap

Moghedien gasped. Not for the name; any fool could call himself Death. But a tiny black fleck, just large enough to see, floated straight across one of those blue eyes and then across the other in the same line. This Moridin had tapped into the True Power, and more than once. Much more. She knew that some men who could channel survived in this time aside from al'Thor - this fellow was much of a size with al'Thor - but she had not expected the Great Lord to allow one that particular honor. An honor with a bite, as any of the Chosen knew. In the long run, the True Power was far more addictive than the One Power; a strong will could hold down the desire to draw more saidar or saidin, but she herself did not believe the will existed strong enough to resist the True Power, not once the saa appeared in your eyes. The final price was different, but no less terrible.

Also, for anyone who commented in this thread about the onyx fist not being black in color, I would suggest that you please reread that section again (emphasis mine):

TITLE: Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: 51 - A Testing

Rand stood in front of her, looking down at the weapon. They were in their rooms inside the Stone of Tear, accompanied by Cadsuane, Narishma, Merise, Naeff and two Maidens.

Rand reached out, touching the weapon. She glanced at him, and a viewing sprang to life above him. A glowing sword, Callandor, being gripped in a black hand. She gasped.

"What did you see?" Rand asked softly.

"Callandor, held in a fist. The hand looks to be made of onyx."

"Any idea what it means?"

She shook her head.

New Futurist Man
02-19-2011, 03:52 AM
Marie Curie 7: The True Power is not more powerful than the One Power

Yeah, I know. I didn't say it was.

What I said was

"Rand likened the flow of TP he channelled to a Choedan Kal-sized amount of One Power-",

and

"[its] possible also that channelling the TP always means a Choedan Kal-sized amount - except where a channeller has been, in some way, restricted, like in the case of Graendal, who could only manage a trickle."


None of the above states the True Power is intrinsically "more powerful" than the One Power, merely that when the True Power is channelled the flow may always be comparable to a Choedan Kal-sized amount of the One Power.

The RJ quote that you've supplied nicely backs up this position: "[the True Power] is just something that does not have some of the limitations of the One Power."

That the True Power lacks any kind of buffer, is what I meant, so that drawing on it immediately infuses the channeller with an amount comparable to employing a Choedan Kal.

Marie Curie 7
02-19-2011, 02:33 PM
None of the above states the True Power is intrinsically "more powerful" than the One Power, merely that when the True Power is channelled the flow may always be comparable to a Choedan Kal-sized amount of the One Power.

Except that both RJ and Brandon have said that while there are slight differences, weaving the True Power works in much the same way as the One Power:

Driving Mr. Sanderson (from Half Moon Bay to San Jose), 21 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting

Matt: Ok. So, obviously a channeler uses the True Power. We’ve discussed this before: they weave the True Power just as they weave the One Power . . .

Brandon: They do, and you don’t have to learn, and so that should tell you that the weaves are similar if not identical to the One Power. There are certain things the True Power can do that are different and it goes about things in different ways, but you don’t have to relearn everything.

AOL Chat #1 - 27 June 1996

Shosh001 asks: Mr. Jordan, you've outdone yourself with A Crown of Swords. My question concerns the True Power. How is it distinguishable from the One Power?

RJ: It's fairly self-evident from the book. What can be done with the True Power is very similar to what can be done with the One Power. Except that where the One Power is drawn from the True Source and is the force that drives the Wheel of Time and powers the universe, the so-called True Power is drawn from the Dark One. There are limits in the same ways there are limits to the One Power. It would be very long if I went into it too much, but some of those limits and costs of drawing on the Dark One are shown in A Crown of Swords.

If a person using the True Power always had access to a Choedan Kal level, that would suggest to me that an unaided True Power user would be inherently stronger than an unaided One Power user. And that appears to be contrary to what has been said about the True Power.

In addition, RJ said that it is possible to burn out using the True Power in the same way that you can burn out using the One Power:

Budapest Q&A - April 2003

RJ: Yeah, you could burn out with the True Power.
Q: Only True Power, or One Power too?
RJ: With the True Power as well as the One Power you can burn out.

So a channeler attempting to use a Choedan Kal level of the True Power unaided would likely be burned out.


The RJ quote that you've supplied nicely backs up this position: "[the True Power] is just something that does not have some of the limitations of the One Power."

No actually, it doesn't. Here, you've picked off only that part of the quote that you want to fit your idea. What RJ was talking about with respect to the True Power not having the same limitations as the One Power was explained by his very next sentence: "Other people can't feel you embracing it, or using it, like the One Power."


That the True Power lacks any kind of buffer, is what I meant, so that drawing on it immediately infuses the channeller with an amount comparable to employing a Choedan Kal.

Rand only thought the True Power felt like an amount of Power similar to drawing through the Choedan Kal. But he was out of his mind with desperation, he had never felt the True Power before, and the rush of the much more addictive True Power in his moment of need only made him feel that way:

TITLE: Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 22 - The Last That Could Be Done

At that moment he grew aware of a strange force. It was like a reservoir of water, boiling and churning just beyond his view. He reached toward it with his mind.

A clouded face flashed before Rand's own, one whose features he couldn't quite make out. It was gone in a moment.

And Rand found himself filled with an alien power. Not saidin, not saidar, but something else. Something he'd never felt before.

Oh, Light, Lews Therin suddenly screamed. That's impossible! We can't use it! Cast it away! That is death we hold, death and betrayal. It is HIM.

Rand closed his eyes as he knelt above Min, then he channeled the strange, unknown force. Energy and life surged through him, a torrent of power like saidin, only ten times as sweet and a hundred times as violent. It made him alive, made him realize that he'd never been alive before. It gave him such strength as he'd never imagined. It rivaled, even, the power he'd held when drawing from the Choedan Kal.

He screamed, in both rapture and rage, and wove enormous spears of Fire and Air. He slammed the weaves against the collar at his neck, and the room exploded with flames and bits of molten metal, each one distinct to Rand. He could feel each shard of metal blast away from his neck, warping the air with its heat, trailing smoke as it hit a wall or the floor. He opened his eyes and released Min. She gasped and sobbed.

Rand stood and turned, white-hot magma in his veins-as when Semirhage had tortured him, yet somehow opposite. As painful as this was, it was also pure ecstasy.

Here, Rand was feeling the highly addictive nature of the True Power, probably magnified by his rage and horror at almost killing Min and then balefiring Semirhage.

This scene was discussed after TGS came out, and Brandon explained:

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Borders, Washington DC 4 November 2009 - mrc1ark reporting

On the subject of the Choedan Kal, Brandon said that the True Power was not as strong as someone with the Choedan Kal. Just it felt as tempting and as addictive as the One Power through the Choedan Kal.

fdsaf3
02-24-2011, 01:02 AM
It would seem to me that someone who is as insane as Ishmael would have devised a way to construct angreal to focus weaves of the True Power, assuming such objects can be created.

Also, and I am just spitballing here, I wonder what the philosophical connection between the inherently destructive nature of the True Power is and the fact that it is so highly addictive? Maybe some food for thought...

Juan
02-24-2011, 02:19 AM
I'm not sure Ishamael can make such items. I don't think every AS could make ter'angreals or angreals or sa'angreals... If so, I'm sure we'd have seen all the Forsaken making tons of them. I mean maybe the did and we'll find out in the last book at the last Battle. But I highly doubt it. And Ishamael to my knowledge has shown no signs of being capable of this.

Artur pendragon
02-24-2011, 02:59 PM
But she did know what it meant since she specifically saw Callandor in her viewing and her statement following it confirmed that. There was no suggested ambiguity about what she was seeing. One could say the black hand was interpreted as being one of onyx in her wording but the sword was Callandor both in vision and statement. Had she not known for sure what the glowing sword was, she'd have remained silent or her POV would have hinted at doubt.



In contrast, she was silent about the vision of Dragonmount, even though her interpretation was correct. You can see her doubts play out.

She glanced at him, and a viewing sprang to life above him. A glowing sword, Callandor, being gripped in a black hand. She gasped.

"What did you see?" Rand asked softly.

"Callandor, held in a fist. The hand looks to be made of onyx."

Notice here that Min said it was gripped by a Black hand, and she said that the hand looks to be made of onyx.

fdsaf3
02-24-2011, 04:25 PM
Right, that's why I said "assuming such objects can be made". It just seems intuitively obvious to me that a user of the True Power would be at a disadvantage in some respects without access to Power-enhancing objects. Hence, I would think it would at least have been contemplated or experimented with.

Anyway, it was just idle speculation.

Wunderwaffe
02-24-2011, 05:35 PM
My impression of the True Power is that you don't need a sa'angreal or angreal to amplify the amount of it you can channel. The amount of it you can channel is directly proportional to how much of it the Dark One permits you to channel.

Terez
02-24-2011, 06:18 PM
It lives!

Jonai
02-25-2011, 12:03 AM
It lives!

Oshi

Enigma
02-25-2011, 07:34 AM
I think one of the forsaken had a pov where by it was stated that all the forsaken were looking to see if they could get their hands on angreal or sa'angreal.

It stands to reason that if they could make an angreal they would not be running around in treasure hunts as it woudl be simpler ot make one.

I suspect that making an angreal requires a certain talent that the forsaken may lack and it might also require equipment in the form of ter'angreal that they also lack.

In theory it would make sense that an angreal could be made to magnify the True Power but the TP seemes to be tied to destruction. Could it be the case that even if one could make a TP angreal it would have a limited lifespan as the TP itself would wear it out?

GonzoTheGreat
02-25-2011, 08:01 AM
An angreal does two things:

1. It lets you draw more.
This would be irrelevant in regard to the TP, unless you manage to make something that can force the DO to obey you. Any volunteers for testing this?

2. It allows you to draw that extra amount safely (apart from flawed items like Callandor).
This could, in theory, be relevant. But, once again: the only place we know of where this could be pertinent is in the Pit of Doom, and the DO might not like it if you showed up there with something designed to threaten him.

So either way, I do not think that a TP angreal is a realistically useful item.

Enigma
02-25-2011, 09:06 AM
Trying to use the TP at SG with or without an angreal is a bad idea. RJ said that channeling the TP there would fry you. Using a TP angreal probably only fries you extra fast.

Rand al'Fain
02-25-2011, 09:36 PM
I was just thinking that the black hand of onyx would be some sort of ter'angreal made/found for Rand and works as a prosthetic of sorts. Would give him a hell of a punch then.

Seth Baker
02-28-2011, 01:28 PM
My impression of the True Power is that you don't need a sa'angreal or angreal to amplify the amount of it you can channel. The amount of it you can channel is directly proportional to how much of it the Dark One permits you to channel.

Up to the limit where you burn yourself out. One could not force the Dark One to give you additional access, but I think that, in theory, a True Power angreal or sa'angreal would be capable of serving the function of increasing the amount that the individual can handle without being burned out, and would buffer the individual from drawing too much, so long as the Dark One would allow the user to channel that much.

Wantanswers
03-01-2011, 08:01 AM
I was just thinking that the black hand of onyx would be some sort of ter'angreal made/found for Rand and works as a prosthetic of sorts. Would give him a hell of a punch then.

Although it is just speculation, you may be right. And if you are right, I think Elaine will discover or create that hand, because of one of Min's visions.

“She(Elayne) will have to share her husband with two other women and she will be a queen. A severed hand, not hers.” (tGH, Ch. 24)

Of course it could mean that Rand would loose his hand. But, if Elayne can create a hand ter'agreal, it will be severed as well so long as she hasn't given it to Rand.

Terez
03-01-2011, 08:43 AM
We think the severed hand was fulfilled when Elayne made a deal with the Band...or will be fulfilled when they drive the Shadowspawn out of Caemlyn.

Wantanswers
03-01-2011, 11:26 AM
We think the severed hand was fulfilled when Elayne made a deal with the Band...or will be fulfilled when they drive the Shadowspawn out of Caemlyn.

Who are we? Or did you use the pluralis majestetis?
I can hardly believe many people agree with this idea. Severing is almost opposed to making a deal. Only if the Band of the Red Hand ended their contract you could talk about severing. And I have difficulty calling a fleeing or dying Trolloc fist a "severed hand".

Terez
03-01-2011, 12:51 PM
Who are we? Or did you use the pluralis majestetis?
We being most Theorylanders. The ones who actually live here, as opposed to vagrants such as yourself. ;)

I can hardly believe many people agree with this idea.
It was not an incredibly popular faction (http://www.theoryland.com/factions.php?func=4&rec=79) pre-TOM (nor was it particularly unpopular), but most people agreed it was fulfilled after the book came out. It was foreshadowed way back in book six, so most of the residents were unsurprised when the deal was made. Many Dragonmounters also liked the theory, including Luckers.

Severing is almost opposed to making a deal.
The idea is that Elayne will borrow the Band from Mat (as she did when she seized Cairhien), or command it in his absence. The Band is severed from its leader. Or some might see it as just being the image on the flag. I tend to think it's the former.

GonzoTheGreat
03-01-2011, 01:58 PM
I think that the Band is less severed from Mat now than it was when Egwene tricked him into getting hitched*.

* Marriage was not what Egwene had in mind, admittedly, but it is what it ended up in anyway.

Terez
03-01-2011, 02:10 PM
I think that the Band is less severed from Mat now than it was when [he went to Ebou Dar].
This is true, but Elayne's role with them was much weaker then.

Oneirist
03-01-2011, 02:38 PM
Mordred steals King Arthur's sword in some version of the story, if I remember right, and kills him with it. Maybe Moridin gets it and uses it with Cyndane and Moghedien? Or Demandred finally gets his sa'angreal and "launches himself" at Rand, which I think is more likely. That bit from Mesaana's POV back in LoC always seemed like some foreshadowing to me, and I don't see how Demandred could be a big threat without it to Rand now that he's in Jesus Mode. And since I can't see him or Taim passing control to someone else, Callandor's flaw would likely be the end of whoever uses it against Rand.

Orlphar
03-01-2011, 11:03 PM
Hello, first post here... been kinda lurking for a little while and had a thought while reading this thread, so decided to finally sign up and say something.

When Rand and Asmodean fought over the choden'kal in Rhuidian, they both drew from the same sa'angreal, but both had to fight for it, as in willingly draw power through it.

I wonder what happens when two male channelers touch callandor while channeling, what with the lack of buffer. If channeling the OP would be bad for the dark one, perhaps the sword that is not a sword will be used like a sword, not for the sake of a stabbing wound, but to force contact (if the DO even has a physical presence).

Just an alternate way the lack of buffer might come into play, IF the OP is actually harmful to the DO. Kinda funny that I'm dismissing my own theory in the same post I make it in, but I don't think that this is the case. The DO didn't seem to have any problem touching the OP to taint it (he might have even channeled it then, too), and the taint was able to stick to saidin, which implies it doesn't react to the OP like it reacted to shadar logarth evil (or even like saidin and saidar reacted to each other during the cleansing).

Just thought I'd throw that out anyways, since it suddenly struck me as somewhat suspicious that callandor is a sword that isn't a sword... why is it shaped like a sword, but given a name saying it isn't? Perhaps to make everyone forget that it is, in fact, still a sword.

Ah, and typing that last line gave me another idea, one that I won't shoot down myself: Rand will be almost overwhelmed by either Demandred or Taim; whichever one will be winning the power battle (with a circle and/or sa'angreal of their own), perhaps they'll even shield Rand's circle, but then Rand will get the kill by forgetting callandor isn't supposed to be a sword.

Juan
03-02-2011, 03:00 AM
Hey orphal! Good to see you joined. Welcome to TL. And I like all the twists and turns in your post. :P A few people have suggested the DO channeling the OP and it being harmful. But the question is: why would the DO need or want to channel the OP?

Rand al'Fain
03-02-2011, 04:09 AM
Hey orphal! Good to see you joined. Welcome to TL. And I like all the twists and turns in your post. :P A few people have suggested the DO channeling the OP and it being harmful. But the question is: why would the DO need or want to channel the OP?

But why not? Adds an extra level to the DO's evilness.

Seth Baker
03-02-2011, 11:23 AM
I find it difficult to believe that the last book is going to fundamentally alter the metaphysics by having the Dark One channel the One Power (and having it injure him), or allowing something else unforeshadowed to be the key action. There are plenty of ways that we know of where the Prophecies could be fulfilled and the Dark One could be defeated. It tends to be much less satisfying when it's a transparent deus ex machina and it seems like RJ/BS have just made something up to surprise us. We have 14 books (including NS) worth of mythology and One Power-ology, along with 20 years worth of interviews on the subject. None of which indicate (or even hint) that the Dark One is going to channel the One Power.

I really don't like the idea of solutions that introduce new metaphysical concepts relating to the use of the One Power. It feels too contrived.

Juan
03-02-2011, 01:55 PM
I agree Seth.

@Rand
How does make him evil? He has no need for it. He has the true power.

Orlphar
03-02-2011, 04:55 PM
Hey orphal! Good to see you joined. Welcome to TL. And I like all the twists and turns in your post. :P A few people have suggested the DO channeling the OP and it being harmful. But the question is: why would the DO need or want to channel the OP?

If that's the way things will be (and as I said, I don't think it will be, but it doesn't hurt to explore what you think is a dead end; maybe you'll notice something you never have before), then the DO will not choose to draw it, but callendor will force him because of the lack of buffer. I don't think that the lack of buffer is a flaw, but something done deliberately. I see two possibilities about why that flaw is there:

-There is some advantage to not having a buffer. Could be as simple as making the sa'angreal more powerful, or forcing women to join the circle, but I think it's more significant than that. Logically, a lack of buffer could force any who come in contact to draw saidin, whether or not they can (with consequences if they can't). Or maybe it's not even really a male sa'angreal, but just happens to function as one without a buffer, while having a separate true purpose that Rand himself won't figure out until he's on the DO's doorstep.

-The other possibility (which would make the lack of buffer essentially a red herring) is that the men making it were already going insane, and decided that no buffer was better than buffered for reasons of "it's gotta be more powerful, even if it's a bit harder to control; the dragon can handle it!". Or they were rushed by the breaking starting and didn't have time to add it.

I can't really say either is more likely... as much as I think there's more to the buffer than has already been in the books, great expectations failing has been a bit of a theme when it comes to stuff from the AoL.

By the way, about that ebon hand... didn't the super girls find an ebon hand ter'angreal in Ebou Dar?

Korgil
03-22-2011, 08:48 PM
Hello all

read through some of the theories here and thought I'd chip in with the conclusions I drew and where i think we are going with callandor.....

The characters in the book keep assuming that the "Fearful Blade" is named that because there is a flaw other than the lack of buffer, I believe that this is a side effect of the blades true purpose.....to enable the wielder to draw the One Power and the True Power at the same time and thus reweave the pattern over the bore sealing in the DO once more

We are continueosly reminded that the True Power is almost identicle in use to the One power but some things can only be accomplished with the True Power.....this combined with RJ love of combining like but opposite powers to create the most powerful objects and effects and this seems more credible.

Then remember that Callandor "magnified" the effect of the taint when used....as it is a conduit for the True power as well as the One Power this would seem to be an obvious side effect.

Thus why Callandor is in the prophecies and the cheodan kal are not.....Callandor is the only item of power in the world which can handle both seperate powers.

A variation on this theme comes when we add in Lanfear at the end of the book....Callandor requires 2 women to be linked and Rand has yet to choose the second, is it possible the second will be Lanfear drawing the True Power?

Pure conjecture and probably all incorrect but fun to play the guessing game ;-)

GonzoTheGreat
03-23-2011, 06:18 AM
Oh my, this could mean that not only Rand, but Alivia and Nynaeve too, die during the Sealing. That'd throw a big spanner into any number of "Nynaeve will pull him from TAR" theories, won't it?

Zombie Sammael
03-23-2011, 11:17 AM
I may be repeating myself here but do we KNOW for sure what the "buffer" is or does?

I had always assumed that it prevents a channeler from drawing more than is safe through an angreal or sa'angreal, i.e. that it is still theoretically possible to burn yourself out when channeling through an amplification object, and that they are usually buffered to prevent this. I would base this on the notion than angreal and sa'angreal are "designed" to amplify the amount on can channel to a certain level, whether it be to double, triple, or allow 100 times the usual power use. I base this on a good theory I read a while ago about how angreal and sa'angreal might be made; that it would require a circle to increase the amplification level.

I had assumed the buffer that Callandor lacked was this, and that in fact it potentially allowed the wielder to draw any amount of the power they chose, or to reach beyond their own capacity, even through the sa'angreal.

I know I am repeating myself here, but I ask again because it seems people have gone off assuming the buffer does something else, and I wondered if anyone had any direct evidence from the books or the authors which confirmed the nature of the buffer.

GonzoTheGreat
03-23-2011, 12:02 PM
Since it would apparently have been possible for some AS to burn themselves out if they had used the Choedan Kal, even though that sa'angreal did not have a flaw of this kind, I would say that there is indeed a possibility for bypassing a working buffer.

Korgil
03-23-2011, 04:27 PM
Bufffers essentially stop the channeler from drawing too much of the power through the angreal or sa'angreal and then burning themselves out

Re-hashing my previous posts on callandor....it is possible that the prescence of a buffer stops the item from being able to draw the True Source. In this case when the taint was cleansed and Saidar used as a coinduit for the taint the Cheoden Kal that Nyneave was using broke due to being forcefully exposed to part of the True Power

sorry for the poor spelling.....terrible migraine

Daekyras
03-28-2011, 09:32 AM
Oh my, this could mean that not only Rand, but Alivia and Nynaeve too, die during the Sealing. That'd throw a big spanner into any number of "Nynaeve will pull him from TAR" theories, won't it?

Don't most of those theories have her doing that BEFORE Rand seals the Bore?