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New Futurist Man
12-21-2010, 07:25 AM
“New viewings spun around his head. She normally ignored those, but she couldn’t do so now. An open cavern, gaping like a mouth. Bloodstained rocks. Two dead men on the ground, surrounded by ranks and ranks of Trollocs, a pipe with smoke curling from it.”
Towers of Midnight,For What Has Been Wrought [page 193]

Who will be the “Two dead men”....?

Moridin has been making painstaking preparations for thousands of years to ensure he meets the Dragon Reborn at the Last Battle, so it seems unlikely this faceoff would transpire on the rather innocuous slopes of Shayol Ghul. What’s more likely is the two battling within the actual mountain, close to the very Bore itself.

Plus the fact that Rand knows that only balefire will truly kill Forsaken, ensures its gonna be his weapon of choice when he next faces one. Meaning no leftover corpses.

The “Two dead men” could potentially be, amongst other things: a) not Forsaken at all, but possibly two of Moridin’s strongest and most skilled Channellers who are meant to weaken the Dragon;

Or b) Two Asha’man who accompany Rand to Shayol Ghul but don't survive to tell the tale;

Or c) one dead Asha’man and one dead Dreadlord…

Min mentions ranks of Trollocs so Fain’s a possibility too. But that would mean he’s going to penetrate right to Shayol Ghul through all the Shadow’s defences and Trolloc settlements - supposedly without anyone noticing him or his army of zombie trollocs!?

Two of the most powerful Dreadlords - one of whom may be Taim - seems most likely. Sent to their slaughter by the Nae'blis to weaken the Dragon before there momentous battle...

FelixPax
12-21-2010, 07:41 AM
[/INDENT]

Who will be the “Two dead men”....?

At first I was tossing around the idea of the two being Rand and Moridin... but that doesn't specifically fit the known tales of the Moon and the Sun, during the Breaking period between the 3rd to 4th Ages.

And the Shadow fell upon the Land, and the World was riven stone from stone. The oceans fled, and the mountains were swallowed up, and the nations were scattered to the eight corners of the World. [B]The moon was as blood, and the sun was as ashes.

—from Aleth nin Taerin alta Camora,
The Breaking of the World.
Author unknown, the Fourth Age

The Eye of the World, Prologue

However, one has to recall Min's visions have omitted completely Mierin's role in future too. The Dark Prophecies expressed mention the Daughter of the Night, being with the Dragon at the time of his death. Secondly, the visual imagery found in 'The Great Hunt" book surrounding Cairhien scenes of Loial, Rand al'Thor and Selene (Mierin) strongly imply that the Daughter of the Night shall guide our Heroes to the very slopes of Shayol Ghul. Mierin knows exactly where the Bore entrance is.


Perhaps those two bodies are Moridin and Rand?

natasharma
12-22-2010, 03:33 AM
However, one has to recall Min's visions have omitted completely Mierin's role in future too. The Dark Prophecies expressed mention the Daughter of the Night, being with the Dragon at the time of his death. Secondly, the visual imagery found in 'The Great Hunt" book surrounding Cairhien scenes of Loial, Rand al'Thor and Selene (Mierin) strongly imply that the Daughter of the Night shall guide our Heroes to the very slopes of Shayol Ghul. Mierin knows exactly where the Bore entrance is.


It would help if you could quote where the Dark Prophecy says that Lanfear will be around Rand at the time of his death...

Glen
12-22-2010, 07:16 AM
At first I was tossing around the idea of the two being Rand and Moridin... but that doesn't specifically fit the known tales of the Moon and the Sun, during the Breaking period between the 3rd to 4th Ages.
I'm pretty sure that 4th Age quotation is talking about the Breaking that occurred between the 2nd and 3rd Ages.

Terez
12-22-2010, 11:11 AM
We already tried to tell him that. He's a stubborn one.

metaphor
12-23-2010, 11:34 AM
An open cavern, gaping like a mouth. Bloodstained rocks. Two dead men on the ground, surrounded by ranks and ranks of Trollocs, a pipe with smoke curling from it.”


By the description this seems to be the moment before Rand enters inside the cavern of Shayol ghul. The 2 dead men might be the ones he's killed, or whose spirit he has absorbed, so Fain and Moridin.

The pipe is the one Tam will be smoking when he reveals that he's the DO.

GonzoTheGreat
12-23-2010, 11:45 AM
The pipe is the one Tam will be smoking when he reveals that he's the DO.That actually makes sense, as Bela is Tam's horse.

metaphor
12-23-2010, 11:47 AM
That actually makes sense, as Bela is Tam's horse.

And he shall ride horse named Death



Moridin is Bela in disguise. Or the other way around, I can't say.

The Immortal One
12-26-2010, 02:53 AM
An open cavern, gaping like a mouth. Bloodstained rocks. Two dead men on the ground, surrounded by ranks and ranks of Trollocs, a pipe with smoke curling from it.”


By the description this seems to be the moment before Rand enters inside the cavern of Shayol ghul. The 2 dead men might be the ones he's killed, or whose spirit he has absorbed, so Fain and Moridin.

It's not a description. Min thought "New viewings spun around his head." It's four seperate viewings.

1. An open cavern, gaping like a mouth

2. Bloodstained rocks

3. Two men on the ground, surrounded by ranks and ranks of Trollocs

4. a pipe with smoke curling from it

TankSpill
12-27-2010, 11:00 AM
I'm not claiming this as a theory, it just struck me as a possibility:

Maybe the two men are Perrin and Fain, and that is when Perrin has to be with Rand the second time - he kills Fain and the trollocs to keep them from distracting Rand from the real work within. There does seem to be a lot of foreshadowing to Perrin's untimely demise (though as of ToM, I doubt it to happen anymore), maybe this is how it possibly happens.

Glen
12-28-2010, 12:59 AM
I'm not claiming this as a theory, it just struck me as a possibility:

Maybe the two men are Perrin and Fain, and that is when Perrin has to be with Rand the second time - he kills Fain and the trollocs to keep them from distracting Rand from the real work within. There does seem to be a lot of foreshadowing to Perrin's untimely demise (though as of ToM, I doubt it to happen anymore), maybe this is how it possibly happens.

I suspect the "second time" was when Rand was on Dragonmount, and Perrin was in T'A'R observing him.

But certainly a possibility.

The Immortal One
12-31-2010, 12:55 AM
I suspect the "second time" was when Rand was on Dragonmount, and Perrin was in T'A'R observing him.

But certainly a possibility.

I thought that Perrin had to be near Rand twice or women who can channel would hurt him; not that Perrin being there would stop him being hurt - only that if Perrin was not there Rand would certainly be hurt.

As much as I like the idea that Perrin had to be on Dragonmount for a good outcome, there didn't seem to be any women nearby at the time.

Or did I read Min's viewing wrong?

EDIT: No sorry I am wrong. I accidentally mixed two different viewings together.

Rand - And there was something else, something new, an aura of yellow and brown and purple that made her stomach clench. "Aes Sedai are going to hurt you. Women who can channel, anyway. It was all confused. I'm not sure about the Aes Sedai part. But it might happen more than once. I think that's why it seemed all scrambled."

and

Rand and Perrin - "And there's something else I saw when you two were together. Twice he's going to have to be there, or you... If he's not, something bad will happen to you. Very bad. It will happen if he is not there, but nothing I saw said it won't because he is. It will be very bad, Rand."

sheikh chilli
12-31-2010, 07:52 AM
moridin and fain.

so easy.

TankSpill
12-31-2010, 03:18 PM
I suspect the "second time" was when Rand was on Dragonmount, and Perrin was in T'A'R observing him.

But certainly a possibility.


I just don't see that - I thought about it, but can't see as how Perrin actually helped in that at all. Once again, I'm not even claiming what I said above as a theory, but I can't see the DM revelation being a part of it.

moridin and fain.

so easy.

It's kinda weird how you just show up on a site and claim how everything is so obvious...

Weird Harold
12-31-2010, 08:59 PM
I just don't see that - I thought about it, but can't see as how Perrin actually helped in that at all. Once again, I'm not even claiming what I said above as a theory, but I can't see the DM revelation being a part of it.

Perrin's Ta'veren effect isn't as "visible" or long-ranged as Rand's, but he is still ta'veren. Perhaps Perrin's Ta'veren effect on Rand is why he needs to be close to Rand.

(It think I recall an RJ comment to the effect of, "ta'veren can't affect themselves.")

GonzoTheGreat
01-01-2011, 05:17 AM
Let's look at the actual events, from the two books:
ToM
His voice was lost in the wind, and he doubted that Rand could have heard him anyway. The darkness continued to seep out, like a liquid tar coming through Rand's pores, creating a miasma of pitch around the Dragon Reborn. Within moments, Perrin could barely see Rand through the blackness. It enclosed him, cutting him off, banishing him. The Dragon Reborn was gone. Only evil remained.

"Rand, please . . ." Perrin whispered.
TGS
Why? Rand thought with wonder. Because each time we live, we get to love again,

That was the answer. It all swept over him, lives lived, mistakes made, love changing everything. He saw the entire world in his mind's eye, lit by the glow in his hand. He remembered lives, hundreds of them, thousands of them, stretching to infinity. He remembered love, and peace, and joy, and hope.Put like this, it does seem as though Perrin had an influence, doesn't it?

Of course, neither of them actually heard the other, but, as WH points out, that's not necessary for the ta'veren effect to operate.

sheikh chilli
01-01-2011, 09:06 AM
I just don't see that - I thought about it, but can't see as how Perrin actually helped in that at all. Once again, I'm not even claiming what I said above as a theory, but I can't see the DM revelation being a part of it.



It's kinda weird how you just show up on a site and claim how everything is so obvious...

well i can't help it if i am smart enough to deduce the whole thing

FelixPax
01-01-2011, 10:22 AM
Maybe the two men are Perrin and Fain, and that is when Perrin has to be with Rand the second time - he kills Fain and the trollocs to keep them from distracting Rand from the real work within.

I do not believe Perrin will physical travel to Shayol Ghul.
Why? He'll be dead before that event occurs.


Shrug, perhaps Perrin will die during an attempt to protect Aes Sedai from an Seanchan attack out of the Tower Library's basement?

Oddly enough Rand al'Thor once mentioned this:

He tried to picture it, but it was like picturing a wolf taking the cat’s place in front of a mouse hole.

The Eye of the World, Chapter 1 -- Rand point of view; with Mat Cauthon, Perrin

Perrin's a Wolf, and Aes Sedai have repeated been linked to Cats.

Of course, one problem with that particular imagery interpretation is to see the White Tower entrance as a Mouse Hole... Sigh. :rolleyes:

Though at least it's known for sure, that Perrin has previous stated to Seonid & six Wise Ones, that he sees his role as protecting Aes Sedai from danger. Be it from Rand or anyone else.






I'm pretty sure that 4th Age quotation is talking about the Breaking that occurred between the 2nd and 3rd Ages.

No.

Why? Books are going to burn again.
Many of prior Ages writings will be destroyed, after the 3rd Age's Last Battle.
The Tower Library is going to burn. Again.


This Fourth Age quotation is specifically referring to the Aiel Clans out in the Waste in the Third Age. Just like every other Fourth Age quotation in the Series refers to Third Age events too.

And when the blood was sprinkled on ground where nothing could grow, the Children of the Dragon did spring up, the People of the Dragon, armed to dance with death. And he did call them forth from the wasted lands, and they did shake the world with battle.

—from*The Wheel of Time*
by Sulamein so Bhagad,
Chief Historian at the Court of the Sun,*
the Fourth Age



The lions sing and the hills take flight.
The moon by day and the sun by night.
Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.
Let the Lord of Chaos rule.

—chant from a children’s game
heard in Great Arvalon,
the Fourth Age

No "Great Arvalon" existed in the 2nd Age.
How is this known?
Lew Therins point of view in the Prologue of "The Eye of the World" claims no one was alive in near the current site of Dragonmount.

The land around him was flat and empty. A river flowed nearby, straight and broad, but he could sense there were no people within a hundred leagues. He was alone, as alone as a man could be while still alive, yet he could not escape memory.

The Eye of the World, Prologue -- Lews Therin point of view (e.g. in Rand al'Thor's memories)


What did Aes Sedai tell Vanin about "the Mountains"?

Mountains rose UP to giants in height.
Mountains which currently Tower over everything in the Lands.
Taller than everything previously built, according to Vanin's source.
Even Rand's Aiel Visions of the past know that 'The Spine of the World' mountains, are newly created mountains.

And the Shadow fell upon the Land, and the World was riven stone from stone. The oceans fled, and the mountains were swallowed up, and the nations were scattered to the eight corners of the World. The moon was as blood, and the sun was as ashes. The seas boiled, and the living envied the dead. All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.


—from*Aleth nin Taerin alta Camora,
The Breaking of the World.
Author unknown, the Fourth Age

No, the Mountains at the end of the 3rd Age are going to be "swallowed up".
Multiple other textual sources claim as much too.

Who is responsible for this coming "change"?
Rand al'Thor with Callandor and Two Others will be the ultimate cause of the Mountains being swallowed up.

FelixPax
01-01-2011, 10:43 AM
It would help if you could quote where the Dark Prophecy says that Lanfear will be around Rand at the time of his death...

Mierin in known by many names across this Series, depending upon who's point of view is being read. In the Dark Prophecy, Mierin is called by the name of "Daughter of the Night".

Moiraine's thoughts name 'the Daughter of the Night' as 'Lanfear'.

Here is a chunk of that chapter's text.
Note Italics are original to the text; while the Bold was added after the fact to emphasize a given line's importance:


“I will say nothing, of course, Mother.” Verin bowed, but made no move toward the door. “I thought you might wish to see this, Mother.” She pulled a small notebook, bound in soft, brown leather, from her belt. “What was written on the walls in the dungeon. There were few problems with translation. Most was the usual—blasphemy and boasting; Trollocs seem to know little else—but there was one part done in a better hand. An educated Darkfriend, or perhaps a Myrddraal. It could be only taunting, yet it has the form of poetry, or song, and the sound of prophecy. We know little of prophecies from the Shadow, Mother.”

The Amyrlin hesitated only a moment before nodding. Prophecies from the Shadow, dark prophecies, had an unfortunate way of being fulfilled as well as prophecies from the Light. “Read it to me.”

Verin ruffled through the pages, then cleared her throat and began in a calm, level voice.

“Daughter of the Night, she walks again.
The ancient war, she yet fights.
Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still.
Who shall stand against her coming?
The Shining Walls shall kneel.
Blood feeds blood.
Blood calls blood.
Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.

The man who channels stands alone.
He gives his friends for sacrifice.
Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying, one to life eternal.
Which will he choose? Which will he choose?
What hand shelters? What hand slays?
Blood feeds blood.
Blood calls blood.
Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.

Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom.
Isam waited in the high passes.
The hunt is now begun. The Shadow’s hounds now course, and kill.
One did live, and one did die, but both are.
The Time of Change has come.
Blood feeds blood.
Blood calls blood.
Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.

The Watchers wait on Toman’s Head.
The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree.
Death shall sow, and summer burn, before the Great Lord comes.
Death shall reap, and bodies fail, before the Great Lord comes.
Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great Lord comes.
Now the Great Lord comes.
Now the Great Lord comes.
Blood feeds blood.
Blood calls blood.
Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.

Now the Great Lord comes.”
There was a long silence when she finished.

Finally the Amyrlin said, “Who else has seen this, Daughter? Who knows of it?”
“Only Serafelle, Mother. As soon as we had copied it down, I had men scrub the walls. They didn’t question; they were eager to be rid of it.”

The Amyrlin nodded. “Good. Too many in the Borderlands can puzzle out Trolloc script. No need to give them something else to worry over. They have enough.”
“What do you make of it?” Moiraine asked Verin in a careful voice. “Is it prophecy, do you think?”

Verin tilted her head, peering at her notes in thought. “Possibly. It has the form of some of the few dark prophecies we know. And parts of it are clear enough. It could still be only a taunt, though.” She rested a finger on one line. “*‘Daughter of the Night, she walks again.’ That can only mean Lanfear is loose again. Or someone wants us to think she is.”

“That would be something to worry us, Daughter,” the Amyrlin Seat said, “if it were true. But the Forsaken are still bound.” She glanced at Moiraine, looking troubled for an instant before she schooled her features. “Even if the seals*are*weakening, the Forsaken are still bound.”

Lanfear. In the Old Tongue, Daughter of the Night. Nowhere was her real name recorded, but that was the name she had taken for herself, unlike most of the Forsaken, who had been named by those they betrayed. Some said she had really been the most powerful of the Forsaken, next to Ishamael, the Betrayer of Hope, but had kept her powers hidden. Too little was left from that time for any scholar to say for certain.


The Great Hunt, Chapter "Blood Calls Blood" -- Moiraine point of view; with Siuan, Siuan in the Fortress of Fal Dara

Rand's later name 'Lanfear' as 'Mierin (http://idealseek.no-ip.com/IdealSeek.cgi?q=Mierin)' (See TSR; TFoH & TofM books).

Fie
01-05-2011, 11:02 AM
Fain absolutely is not one of the "Two dead men". You cannot think of him in the term of man anymore. When I read about a man lying there dead, thereīs no way Fain would come to my mind.

I think it makes the most sense, that both were killed by Rand, because the image is around him and I just guess, they are e.g. one light-sider and one dark-sider who killed each other or the like as I read here, isnīt "personal" enough for the viewing.

Oh, well, I really cannot decide on two, there are just too many around, which will be dead eventually.

New Futurist Man
01-14-2011, 10:10 AM
Two of Moridin's most powerful channellers meant to weaken the Dragon before he enters Shayol Ghul proper still seems most likely. In which case they're probably Dreadlords we haven't met yet, possibly those who launched that massive attack of Power on Maradon.

Fain I doubt. Then who would the other bloke be...?

Yellowbeard
01-14-2011, 10:57 AM
i think one of the dead guys is rand. the prophecies of the dragon's blood being spilled on the black rocks are too numerous to ignore.

the pipe with the curling smoke...could be a reference to tam's involvement. didn't RJ say once that in early drafts rand and tam were the same character but he split that early dude into two separate characters?

and i could buy that the other dead guy is moridin based on his comment in TGS about "not being time to kill each other yet". perhaps he knows his fate involves a fight to the death w/ the dragon reborn. he's been to the finns. probably more than once.

i could also buy that it turns out to be fain. fain has been set up as having a power that can rival the DO. he'll have a part to play in making the DO's prison whole again one way or another.

but overall, i don't think there's enough info. to definitely say who the deads will be. if there were, why would we need another book?