View Full Version : Where was Mat?

joe heron
12-23-2010, 08:25 PM
when Rand was having his one man therapy session in drogonmount?


12-23-2010, 10:16 PM
Hard to say. I want to say he was in Caemlyn already, but I'm not sure. The timeline is wonky in Brandon's books. I'm starting to wonder if Steven Cooper revolted.

Weird Harold
12-24-2010, 12:56 AM
when Rand was having his one man therapy session in drogonmount?

Morat'Corlm's provisional timeline shows Mat killing the Gholam the same day -- Day 816 of the Story.

12-24-2010, 07:40 AM
I believe Mat Cauthon was in or around Caemlyn already, when Rand had his Dragonmount moment too.

However, yes the timeline is not very clear at all once Brandon Sanderson came on board after KoD book. Steve seems to agree:

UPDATE: I have added a first attempt at the timeline for Book 12, The Gathering Storm, written by Brandon Sanderson from the notes and outlines left by Robert Jordan after his death. As you can see, there is significantly greater uncertainty in the timeline for this book compared to the previous several books. This is due to a couple of factors: (a) Sanderson's tendency to use approximate descriptions of time passing (e.g. "several days" and "a few weeks") rather than giving precise periods; and (b) his willingness to allow much greater out-of-chronological-sequence ordering of the chapters making up the individual plot threads than Jordan ever did. (In particular, Perrin's thread and the early part of Egwene's are significantly out of kilter with the rest.) I'm fairly confident that the general shape of the timeline is correct, but the precise placing of most of the entries should be regarded as provisional, pending further information.

Source: Steve Cooper's Chronology (http://www.stevenac.net/wot/wotchron.htm)

I'm starting to wonder if Steven Cooper revolted.

I would not be surprised Steve Cooper ditched the series considering how the story has been butchered in terms on timing. Sigh.

It's understandable for Brandon to focus on character arcs, however he seems to have balefired a bunch of the balls Jordan was juggling in mid-air... perhaps he believed readers wouldn't notice? Or perhaps he didn't notice the balls in the air himself? Or perhaps the publisher & editor didn't care? Or perhaps it was casualty in terms of what to focus on? Or perhaps Brandon's just is not skilled enough of a writer yet, to juggle everything at once? :(

All I understand is the timeline feels off since KoD Book.

That's not considering other problematic issues found elsewhere in the series, predating Brandon's decision to take the job of writing final book(s) in the Wheel of Time series.

12-24-2010, 08:11 AM
Maybe the time line screw ups are the DO's work?
We know that he is messing up the Pattern rather severely. It does not take too big a leap of faith to think that time itself is under attack.

12-24-2010, 11:24 AM
My placing Mat in Caemlyn killing the gholam is based on editing (Ch. 29-30-31) rather than writing, aside from the guess that a third main character's challenge (Mat killing the gholam) would be resolved roughly contemporaneously with the other two (Egwene took the Tower one day before Rand reintegrated on Dragonmount). But the (???) notation means that that guess is just a guess; Mat could conceivably have killed the gholam any time between TOM29 (definitely shortly before VOG) and TOM44 (about a week after VOG).

In any case, Mat had already completed everything else he'd done in Caemlyn by then, and would do nothing else 'on-screen' until Perrin arrived. Whether he remained in/outside Caemlyn during this time is uncertain.

12-24-2010, 12:27 PM
I would not be surprised Steve Cooper ditched the series considering how the story has been butchered in terms on timing. Sigh.
I doubt he ditched the story - he told me in email that he really enjoyed TOM - but from my attempts at making a timeline, I found several contradictions, so I wouldn't be surprised if he gave up on the chronology. Maybe I should email him again...but I don't want to rush him if he's still working on it.

12-24-2010, 02:05 PM
why not just e-mail Brandon about it? If he sometimes answers questions about it you might just get a response.

I cannot remember from the panel, but did anyone ask or bring up the idea of having an Official Timeline in the Encyclopedia WoTica that's supposed to be coming out after the series is done? That would be useful to have.

12-24-2010, 02:55 PM
Maybe the time line screw ups are the DO's work?
We know that he is messing up the Pattern rather severely. It does not take too big a leap of faith to think that time itself is under attack.

Chuckles... why not blame it all on the Creator?
The Pattern did it? ;)

Is Time meaningless?
Thus, all Linear Chronologies are ultimately useless? :eek:

Birgitte once exclaimed to Rand al'Thor in The Great Hunt, "We have all Time"....

Take for example, another vexing timing and identity question:

Soul Rebirthing

Claim: Time is circular, hence a Wheel of Time, thus Souls are Reborn.

A Problem: Mat Cauthon was once killed by Rahvin in Caemlyn, then Rand killed Rahvin using Balefire. Thus, Mat Cauthon returned to life. Yet why was a "Young Mat" created by the Pattern, who is a younger clone of Mat Cauthon?

Question: Did the Pattern force the creation of "Young Mat" or Olver, so that Cauthon's soul would exist during the 3rd Age?

Why do readers need to learn that how Mat Cauthon's soul would be altered if he never entered Aridhol nor visited the Aelfinn and Eelfinn? A Younger Mat not ever shaped by the dangers in his Dreams, posed by Ishamael/Moridin? A Younger Mat not even shaped by an experience of living among the Aiel Clans in the Waste?

If the Pattern could clone Mat Cauthon's soul, and push a 'Young Mat' into the Pattern, it would open a can of worms in terms of other outcomes.

Want a prime example?
Take the story of Caar One-Hand, Rhea and their love child Aemon.

Aemon, is seen by some readers as being the Soul of Mat Cauthon.

Who then are Aemon's Soul Parents? Who are they mostly likely?
Rand al'Thor. Mierin.

Yes, Mat Cauthon YOUR Soul's MOTHER in another Age was Mierin--"The Daughter of the Night"!?! :eek::eek::eek:

Mierin is Jordan's version of Star Wars Darth Vader...
Mierin whispers softly, "Mat, I'm your Soul Mother..." ;)

It's a vexing bizarre set-up of family relationships...
However, the story of Caar One-Hand seems to fit to a T, the Soul of Rand al'Thor. Likewise, the tale of Rhea seems to eerily parallel the character, who is the Soul of Mierin.

Vexing, why because Mierin claimed to Rand al'Thor she was alive in a Dreamless Sleep after the Bore was re-sealed by L.T.T and the Companions, for an estimated 3,000-3,400(?) years.

That's why the oddity of "Mat Cauthon's soul" and his separate younger soul's self as "Olver" is so important. As it gives readers a better chance at trying to understand who is tales of the past is currently living in the present once again. Be it, a Soul Rebirth, a Soul Cloning, or a Soul Splitting event.

Rhea, like the case of Olver to Mat Cauthon was a Soul Clone, I believe. A Soul Clone of Mierin.

Why is Rhea's marriage to Caar One-Hand so important in terms of the Greater Pattern?

Rhea, was a Borderlander women whom gave her son, and later King Aemon of Manetheren, a Direct Bloodline to Borderlanders Peoples.

Perhaps, that's one reason Birgitte understands Mat Cauthon and likes him. Each is a Borderlander and yet a lover of the opposite sex.

Rhea's actions with Caar One-Hand also eerily parallel and foreshadow the tragically for what is to occur with Mierin's future lover and husband, Rand al'Thor. Death. A Death caused by her own hand. (Prediction)

“The story is too long to tell in full, and too grim, and only fragments are known, even in Tar Valon. How Thorin’s son, Caar, came to win Aridhol back to the Second Covenant, and Balwen sat his throne, a withered shell with the light of madness in his eyes, laughing while Mordeth smiled at his side and ordered the deaths of Caar and the embassy as Friends of the Dark. How Prince Caar came to be called Caar One-Hand. How he escaped the dungeons of Aridhol and fled alone to the Borderlands with Mordeth’s unnatural assassins at his heels. How there he met Rhea, who did not know who he was, and married her, and set the skein in the Pattern that led to his death at her hands, and hers by her own hand before his tomb, and the fall of Aleth-loriel.

The Eye of the World, Chapter 19 "Shadow's Waiting" -- Rand point of view; with Moiraine speaking, next to Mat, Perrin, Egwene, Nynaeve, Thom

Aleth-loriel I suspect was likely is somewhere is in modern Kandor or Arafel.

Why is the story of Caar One-Hand, Rhea, Aemon too long for Moiraine to tell? Well, ahh... that's what you've been reading along! Yes, that's an Author's inside joke on all of us. ;)

There is another vexing past history, for Soul of Mat Cauthon: Artur Hawkwing.

Mat Cauthon was not simply once King of Manetheren as Aemon, his Soul once ruled the Westlands as Artur Hawkwing. Quite an irony, considering what the Eelfinn stuffed in his mind's memories about Artur Hawkwing relationships with others.

It's also quite a laugh to re-read Mat's thoughts about flirting with Berelain... considering Mat's a Soul relative of hers... as a direct descendant of Hawkwing's.

Yet from a distance point of view, perhaps that's why Lanfear/Mierin decided to trust Berelain enough to deliver a Letter to Rand al'Thor companions in the Stone?

Berelain would be a Soul Relative of Mierin's too!

Thus, explaining the genetically why Berelain is one of the most Beautiful Women around all of the Westlands or Aiel Waste. From one hot woman to another. ;)

What's Tuon's Soul to Mierin's Soul then?

A sort of daughter in-law, perhaps? Hence, the title "Daughter of Nine Moons"?
Whereas, Mierin is "Moonhunter", "Daughter of the Night".
Each reflects light into heavens, when the darks tries to take control.
Each a Hero, a Protector, a Champion for the Light.

Here's a few related quotations:

"Too much like me", Berelain to Mat

He swept her his best bow, elegant and formal. “A good evening to you, my Lady.” She started to sweep by without a glance, and he straightened angrily. “Are you deaf as well as blind, woman? I’m not a carpet to walk over, and I distinctly heard myself speak. If I pinch your bottom, you can slap my face, but until I do, I expect a civil word for a civil word!”

The First stopped dead, eyeing him in that way women had. She could have sewn him a shirt and told his weight, not to mention when he had his last bath, from that look. Then she turned away, murmuring something to herself. All he caught was “too much like me.”

He stared after her in amazement. Not a word to him! That face, that walk, and her nose so far in the air it was a wonder her feet touched the ground. That was what he got, speaking to the likes of Berelain and Elayne. Nobles who thought you were dirt unless you had a palace and bloodlines back to Artur Hawkwing.

The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 13 "Rumors" -- Mat Cauthon point of view

Rhea seeks each lover Caar One-Hand again... as Lanfear seeks L.T.T... so does Mierin seek Rand al'Thor.

“Listen to this,” Moiraine said. “ ‘Lews Therin was mine, he is mine, and he will be mine, forever. I give him into your charge, to keep for me until I come.’ It is signed ‘Lanfear.’ ” The Aes Sedai turned that cool gaze on Mat. “And you thought it was done? You are ta’veren, Mat, a thread more crucial to the Pattern than most, and the sounder of the Horn of Valere. Nothing is done for you, yet.”

The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 56 "People of the Dragon" -- Mat Cauthon point of view; with Moiraine, Nynaeve, Egwene, Elayne, Rhuarc, Lan

Rhea as Mierin reflects the Light of the Sun, al Caar as Rand is all the Colors of the Sun:

“Jolly Jaim” was “Rhea’s Fling” here, and had been “Colors of the Sun” at an earlier stop.

The Eye of the World, Chapter 32 "Four King in Shadow" -- Rand point of view; with Mat Cauthon

Hugh the Hand
12-24-2010, 08:57 PM
You still think there is a "Young Mat?"

As for the rest of your, um how should put this..., um post, I must wonder once again if you are reading the same books as the rest of us. Either you are not reading the same books as us or you are reading into things excessively.

I will reserve any further comment on your "theory."

I still cannot be sure if you are trying to pull our collective legs.

12-24-2010, 11:20 PM
Hugh, meet Felix. Felix, meet Hugh.

12-25-2010, 02:39 AM
These issues are the kind of things that make me want a longer writing time for AMoL where BS is also not working on his own.

12-25-2010, 04:12 AM
What more fun than reading Felix's posts? Reading it out of order! In order there is somewhat of a general flow of logic, but of out order its like... "wat."

12-27-2010, 11:46 AM
I like Morat's view that Mat would have been fighting/finishing off the gholam, thus giving several major characters some sort of simultaneous completion to story arcs that have been hanging around forever.

What more fun than reading Felix's posts? Reading it out of order! In order there is somewhat of a general flow of logic, but of out order its like... "wat."

Your sentence syntax is awesome in regards to the content of your post.

12-27-2010, 03:21 PM
I have decided not to get bent out of shape if there are elements of the timelines in the last three books that never make sense.

Here's why. This is pure speculation. If someone who knows more about how RJ wrote than I do wants to, please correct me, but I imagine something like this: He had a very good idea of who was going to do what and a general idea of how the timelines reconciled before starting to generate text, but did not put as detailed a chronology together as in, say, the appendix of LOTR. As he wrote, he would encounter the minor inconsistencies of the sort that are bothering us now, and smooth them out by deviating from his outline: changing which secondary characters are present at a scene, say, maybe even adding or deleting incidents that aren't integral to the story, so that the final product made total sense and Steven Cooper could sleep at night.

Now, BS has his outlines and some chapters written by RJ, and goes to work. He and Team Jordan have (as he has said) decided to stick very closely to the scenes as RJ mapped them out in the outline, not adding anything or making significant material alterations. He encounters the usual sort of inconsistencies that would normally need to be resolved upon drafting or second-drafting. What to do? It would make total sense if he decided to write the book as RJ had mapped it out, minor residual inconsistencies and all, rather than make bigger alterations to the flow of things than he intended to do. (He might even decide to have many fewer specific time cues than in the earlier books, as Steven Cooper noticed in TGS, so that things were less glaring). Thus, the books we have; which basically make sense as you read them through but start to not quite add up if you try to put everything on a calendar (which a large majority of readers never would).

If RJ actually would have had a detailed calendar by the stage when things were handed to Brandon, this all goes out the window. (Or perhaps we'll learn things in AMoL that clear everything up and I'll look like a fool, or at least a poor theorist). But it could be.

If it is, what I as a fan am going to do is take the books as they are, accepting minor inconsistencies as one of the unfortunate results of a midseries handoff. I am on record as saying that Brandon has done an unbelievable overall job of integrating his own writing into the plot, characters, and writing of WoT. I'll take a few timeline oddities with good grace as the price for a finished series, much less one being finished as skillfully as this one is. YMMV.