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David Selig
12-25-2010, 09:35 AM
Yesterday I was rereading the TAR battle between Egwene's forces and the Black Ajah in ToM and it struck me that pretty much everyone involved in it was channelling as powerfully as in the real world, incinerating whole rooms, blasting walls with ease, etc. For example:

ToM, Ch. 37

"Fire," Morvrin said, shivering. "Blasting through the walls. Women channeling, several with incredible Power. ".

But only the original twisted ring allows the bearer to channel strongly in TAR, all the other dream ter'angreal allow only for weak channelling.

LoC, Ch. 7

That was the original ring hanging around Siuan’s neck; she appeared as solid as any of the buildings. To herself, Elayne looked just as solid, but she knew that to the others she seemed slightly misty, like Nynaeve and Leane. You almost thought you might see the moonlight through them. That was what using a copy did. She could sense the True Source, but as she was, saidar felt tenuous; if she tried to channel, that would be meager too. With the ring Siuan wore, it would not be so, but that was the price of having secrets someone else knew and you did not dare have exposed.
Here Elayne was wearing one of the twisted ring copies and couldn't channel much.

Earlier in TFOH Ch. 54, when Nynaeve was in TAR, using one of the dream ter'angreal which require channelling, she thought "How could she face Moghedien when the weakest novice in Salidar could match or better her strength?".

Yet during the TAR battles in ToM nobody was having this problem. Am I missing something or is this a significant mistake?

Only explanation I could come up with is that Mesaana had somehow copied perfectly the twisted ring. But IIRC none of the Forsaken had Talent for that, and also if Mesaana could copy it, there should've been more BA involved in the battle. Also Nynaeve was channelling strongly too, and she must've used a imperfect copy or one that requires channelling.

More on the dream ter'angreals.

TGS Hardcover, Ch. 45

Egwene clenched her teeth, thinking of Sheriam's final spilled confessions. The theft of the ter'angreal had been far from the most shocking tidbit she'd mentioned. Elayne would be livid; the original ring had been among those stolen, and Egwene doubted that Siuan's hidden copy would be useful as a template. It was already flawed; copies of it would likely be more imperfect."

The part in bold felt wrong to me, so I checked the previous books. It turned out the original twisted ring dream ter'angreal was actually in possession of Aviendha at that point, Elayne gave it to her before she left for Arad Doman.
Evidently I wasn't the only one who noticed it, and in the e-book edition, the passage is changed to:

TGS E-book, Ch. 45

Egwene clenched her teeth, thinking of Sheriam’s final spilled confessions. The theft of the ter’angreal had been far from the most shocking tidbit she’d mentioned. Elayne would be livid; she had made all of the copies that were stolen. While none of her copies worked as well as the original, they worked well enough. She would not be happy that they were in the hands of a Forsaken.

So everything seems OK.

But in ToM, Egwene reflected during the meeting with the Windfienders
ToM, Ch.35

Shielyn glanced at her hand where, in the real world, she would be holding the small plate that — with a channeled bit of Spirit — let a woman enter Tel'aran'rhiod. Egwene hadn't given them the ter'angreal that let one enter without needing to channel, of course. Those were more versatile, and therefore more powerful. Best to keep those a secret.

First of all, all but one the dream access ter'angreals the SAS had were stolen by Sheriam. The one which wasn't stolen was a copy of the twisted ring. So where do those ones "small plate" ter'angreal which the Windfienders used, came from? IIRC Elayne can't create them from scratch, if she doesn't have one already at hand to copy. I assume the small plate here refers to a copy of the amber plaque, which was one of those dream ter'angreal which require channelling, but both the copies and the original were stolen by Sheriam. The other option is that these small plates are copied from a previously unmentioned specifically dream ter'angreal which had been recovered by Elayne's forces when the BA group was captured in KoD, since we know they had more of them than we've seen descriptions of.

Another problem - since the original twisted ring is out of reach for now, those "ter'angreal that let one enter without needing to channel" Egwene is thinking about, must've been created from the inferior copy Siuan kept or from the copy Nynaeve has. But an inferior copy of an inferior copy would hardly work at all, why make it now? Especially when it seems like those copies are much harder to make than those of the dream ter'angreal that require channelling.

One last thing related to dream ter'angreal. In the first edition of CoT there was a mention by Aviendha that Elayne couldn't come to meet Egwene in TAR because
CoT, Ch.20

She could not make this work,” Aviendha said, the ivory bracelet sliding on her wrist as she touched the twisted ring that still hung from its strip of leather, above the necklace now. “The flows kept slipping away from her. It is the babes.

The part in bold is an obvious mistake, since the twisted ring doesn't require channelling. It was removed from the e-book edition. Furthermore in KoD there's a mention that since she got pregnant, the twisted ring doesn't work at all for Elayne. Which I find strange. Why not? We know pregnant women can enter TAR - Melaine had done it a number of times, even Elayne was able to do it when she could channel into the dream ter'angreal which requires Spirit to work.

In Chapter 26 of WH, after she got pregnant, Elayne met Egwene in TAR, and even though it's not clear which ter'angreal she used then, there's no mention of the twisted ring failing to work for her this time.

Weird Harold
12-25-2010, 08:05 PM
Yesterday I was rereading the TAR battle between Egwene's forces and the Black Ajah in ToM and it struck me that pretty much everyone involved in it was channelling as powerfully as in the real world, incinerating whole rooms, blasting walls with ease, etc. ...

Conveniently, T'A'R itself provides an explanation of anything odd that happens there -- if you believe you can do it, then you CAN do it. :D

Mesaana knew this, and Egwene proved she was better at it than Mesaana -- but Mesana knew enough to teach it to her minions with the aura of AOL training and expertise to reinforce her instructions.

The examples you provided are basically examples that you can only do what you believe you can do in T'A'R. Perrin made Egwene realize the difference when he blocked Balefire with his bare hand.

Tercel
12-25-2010, 08:24 PM
Good spot David,

As you rightly point out the whole Black Ajah battle in the White Tower in tel'aran'rhiod is impossible because the Black sisters were using ter'angreal that don't allow powerful channeling in tel'aran'rhiod while being used.

It also appears there is a series of mistakes in the books regarding whether the tel'aran'rhiod entry ter'angreal Elayne is trying to use requires channelling or not.


Weird Harold,
I don't think idea that you can simply believe yourself stronger in the One Power in tel'aran'rhiod is very plausible.

Weird Harold
12-25-2010, 08:44 PM
I don't think idea that you can simply believe yourself stronger in the One Power in tel'aran'rhiod is very plausible.

I don't think that someone who has seen balefire and its effect could believe he could block it with his bare hand is very plausible either -- but that is the way T'A'R works.

There have been several long discussions over the years -- at least one in the last month -- about whether Channelers in T'A'R are channeling anything other than Spirit or just believe they are.

"Wilder Blocks" blocks prove that Channeling is as much about what you think you can do as what you have the strength to do. The examples are all of characters telling themselves they don't have the strength or control to channel because... <insert excuse here.> They're all cases of people believing they can do less than they can in the waking world, when T'A'R allows virtually anything to be possible -- want to fly? Can't do that with the OP, but in T'A'R it's simpply "Up! Up and Away!"

Whether someone can believe in T'A'R strongly enough to Channel more than they can in the waking world is arguable, but it is definitely a lack of belief that keeps them from matching their waking strength.

CreationEdge
12-26-2010, 01:25 AM
It'd be pretty strange if a Forsaken had access to ter'angreal we didn't know about yet!

Weird Harold
12-26-2010, 01:41 AM
It'd be pretty strange if a Forsaken had access to ter'angreal we didn't know about yet!
You mean something like Dreamspikes?

Juan
12-26-2010, 01:48 AM
I wonder what would happen if you take a baby and as it grows, from the earliest possible, you begin telling he or she about TAR. You engrain it in his/her head that he/she is the owner of the world of dreams and that they can do anything and everything. So you begin actually taking this child into TAR and training it there as well. Pretty much if done right, the child should then believe that it is the owner of the world of dreams and can do whatever...

So I wonder, since in TAR if you believe it, it can happen, what would happen if this child who becomes an adult really does believe that it can do anything and everything and one day just decides to destroy and make TAR cease from existence. Would it actually work.. would TAR just not exist anymore?

David Selig
12-26-2010, 12:49 PM
Conveniently, T'A'R itself provides an explanation of anything odd that happens there -- if you believe you can do it, then you CAN do it. :D

Mesaana knew this, and Egwene proved she was better at it than Mesaana -- but Mesana knew enough to teach it to her minions with the aura of AOL training and expertise to reinforce her instructions.

The examples you provided are basically examples that you can only do what you believe you can do in T'A'R. Perrin made Egwene realize the difference when he blocked Balefire with his bare hand.
But the BA had very little time to train (less than a month by my count), and believing yourself so much stronger, even if possible, must'be way too advanced for them to learn so quickly IMO.

Also back in TFOH, when Moghedien was captured by Nynaeve was taken to find and fight Rahvin in TAR, she was absolutely convinced that the two of them would have no chance against the men who would be there in the flesh and so would be able to channel much more strongly. If she knew about a way to make herself stronger, she would've done it, she was totally terrified and thought they were going to die due to being so much weaker in the Power at that moment than Rahvin and Rand. Moghedien was supposed to be the TAR expert among the Forsaken, together with Lanfear.

Kimon
12-26-2010, 01:18 PM
I wonder what would happen if you take a baby and as it grows, from the earliest possible, you begin telling he or she about TAR. You engrain it in his/her head that he/she is the owner of the world of dreams and that they can do anything and everything. So you begin actually taking this child into TAR and training it there as well. Pretty much if done right, the child should then believe that it is the owner of the world of dreams and can do whatever...

So I wonder, since in TAR if you believe it, it can happen, what would happen if this child who becomes an adult really does believe that it can do anything and everything and one day just decides to destroy and make TAR cease from existence. Would it actually work.. would TAR just not exist anymore?

Assuming that that was possible, how would you achieve it without catching yourself in your own destruction of TAR. After all, if you need to be in TAR to destroy it, how could you do that without destroying yourself in the process? And since so much of the reality of TAR is really illusion, would what you have done really have any effect? Isn't this just a "if a tree falls in the woods" scenario?

Juan
12-26-2010, 02:03 PM
Assuming that that was possible, how would you achieve it without catching yourself in your own destruction of TAR. After all, if you need to be in TAR to destroy it, how could you do that without destroying yourself in the process? And since so much of the reality of TAR is really illusion, would what you have done really have any effect? Isn't this just a "if a tree falls in the woods" scenario?

Assume that person was tired of life and wanted to sacrifice him/herself to destroy TAR. And I'm sorry because I don't remember from where I read this, but I'm pretty sure I've read that the reality in TAR is more real than in the waking world. And if TAR is the realest world, then it can't be much of an illusion.

Kimon
12-26-2010, 02:54 PM
Consider the two following TAR-based scenarios.

1. Rahvin v. Rand in TAR.
During the course of the duel, Rahvin creates pirana like creatures that attack Rand. Were these creatures illusions or real, or is there any difference in TAR? I'm not really even sure that the answer matters, but consider this- they were capable of wounding Rand, but in TAR, presumably he could have either thought the creatures into nonexistence, as he did with many of the creations that Rahvin threw against him, or, theoretically, have even healed himself of the wounds that he received merely by forming an image of himself unwounded. That certainly sounds like an illusory assailant and illusion based wounds. This also corresponds to what we have been told of nightmares, that they are only dangerous if you allow yourself to think of them as real.

2. Moghedien v. Birgitte in TAR
Moghedien turned Birgitte into a child. Birgitte said that she was in a sense still herself, but trapped within the illusion of the child. Nynaeve forced Moghedien to restore her, but theoretically, Birgitte should have been capable of doing this herself, if only she could recognize that what had been done to her was an illusion, and that it was only her belief in that illusion that had made it "real". This also is what essentially occurs with Egwene and Mesaana when Egwene denies the reality of the a'dam.

Hence the comment of the tree falling in the woods. If you believe that you have committed suicide by destroying TAR, if you believe that, then for you that would become reality, but would it have any bearing on the reality of TAR for anyone else, or would it merely be like a tree falling alone in the woods.

Weird Harold
12-26-2010, 07:22 PM
... and one day just decides to destroy and make TAR cease from existence. Would it actually work.. would TAR just not exist anymore?

Whoa...! Flashbacks to Greoge Carlin comedy about growing up Irish Catholic -- "Can God make a rock so heavy even he can't lift it?"

...and believing yourself so much stronger, ...

...a way to make herself stronger, ...

Let me put it another way -- there is no reason to let T'A'R make you weaker than you are awake.

I am not, and never have been, talking about T'A'R making Sorilea and Morgase the equal of Lanfear in OP strength. I'm saying that anyone who thinks they are weaker in T'A'R, for any reason, will be weaker.

morat'corlm
12-26-2010, 09:53 PM
Conveniently, T'A'R itself provides an explanation of anything odd that happens there -- if you believe you can do it, then you CAN do it. :DConveniently, yes, but would you wager that that's what Sanderson intended us to take from that scene?

Why would all the people who used what Demandred called "using a minor ter’angreal by the faint look [...] one made for training beginning students" imagine themselves unable to channel strongly, or have the characteristic insubstantial appearance (also lacking in TOM)? I can buy your explanation, but WOT are not books that have required theoretical retcons to explain sudden changes in world-building before. And the lack of faintness isn't explained by that, either.

“I want to know how it happens that you are both here,” Amys said. She listened to their explanation, and turned the plaque over in her hand once Nynaeve fished it out. Having the ter’angreal touched by someone else while she was using it made Nynaeve’s skin crawl. “I believe you are less here than Elayne,” the Wise One said finally. “When a Dreamwalker enters the World of Dreams in her sleep, only a tiny bit of her remains with her body, just enough to keep her body alive. If she puts herself into a shallow sleep, where she can be here and also speak to those around her in the waking world, she looks as you do to one who is here fully.The columns were there, and Callandor. And around the sparkling sword, almost as dim and insubstantial as shadows, thirteen women sat cross-legged, staring at Callandor as it revolved. Honey-haired Liandrin turned her head, looking straight at Egwene with those big, dark eyes, and her rosebud mouth smiled.

Weird Harold
12-26-2010, 11:32 PM
Conveniently, yes, but would you wager that that's what Sanderson intended us to take from that scene?

No. Not for us to take from that scene. I would think it likely to be something that he would expect us to bring to that scene,though.

nameless
12-27-2010, 01:05 AM
Maybe there's a more complicated weave that allows you to use the trainer ter'angreal without the side effects, and the weakness/faintness only happens if you activate them with an unrefined Spirit flow?

Glen
12-27-2010, 09:07 AM
Yet during the TAR battles in ToM nobody was having this problem. Am I missing something or is this a significant mistake?

Only explanation I could come up with is that Mesaana had somehow copied perfectly the twisted ring. But IIRC none of the Forsaken had Talent for that, and also if Mesaana could copy it, there should've been more BA involved in the battle. Also Nynaeve was channelling strongly too, and she must've used a imperfect copy or one that requires channelling.


Maybe they weren't using Ter'angreals.

After all, Lanfear, Mesaana, and Moghedien have all been seen in T'A'R without being "in the flesh". Unless they all happen to have had dream ter'angreal with them when they were sealed, I find it hard to believe they've all been able to find dream ter'angreal. I also find it hard to believe that all three are Dreamers.

Now, I can't prove this claim, but I'd say that anything you can do with a ter'angreal, you should be able to do, in theory, by channelling directly (at least when in a circle with the other gender). So presumably, there's a way to channel yourself into T'A'R in a dreaming form, and it's likely that those three forsaken know how to do it.

Perhaps Mesaana taught her troupe of BA how to channel their way into T'A'R in dream form.

GonzoTheGreat
12-27-2010, 09:32 AM
I would say that at least Lanfear and Moghedien are Dreamers. Mesaana might not be, admittedly. Then again, there isn't any evidence that I am aware of suggesting that non-Dreamers could be taught to walk the Dream. Even Perrin, with his windows to prophecy, would seem to qualify.

Juan
12-27-2010, 12:31 PM
Far as I was aware.. Anyone could enter TAR even without entering in the flesh or using the dream ter'angreal as long as they were taught. Kinda like just going in like Egwene and the Wise Ones do. Doesn't mean because you can do this you're a dreamer. Always thought being a Dreamer just meant you had those prophetic Dreams, which not all the dreamwalker Wise Ones get. Yet they still make it into TAR well enough..

morat'corlm
12-28-2010, 11:19 AM
Maybe they weren't using Ter'angreals.This was a possible explanation I looked into a few days ago, and while I think it's possible strictly from what we see of the battle (probably because of Sanderson's sparse prose), the context of Mesaana acquiring the "sleepweavers", and then this, is hard to work around: "Yes, though it took some time. She was impersonating an Aes Sedai named Danelle, of the Brown Ajah. We found her in her room, babbling like a child. She had already soiled herself. I'm not sure what we will do with her." So Mesaana herself was definitely entering TAR through her sleep, whether or not she had a ter'angreal, and the others would seem likely to be using ter'angreal which are known not to establish a full connection to TAR. Why Mesaana did not enter TAR in her flesh is something of a mystery.

David Selig
12-28-2010, 11:31 AM
ToM, Ch. 36

Leane, Yukiri and Seaine sat in chairs facing the Wise Ones, each wearing one of Elayne's copied dream ter'angreal, looking shadowy and insubstantial.

So the fact that the dream ter'angreal make the wearer appear insubstantial was not completely forgotten by Sanderson. But that's the only mention I can find of it in ToM.

The Immortal One
12-31-2010, 01:26 AM
Didn't I read somewhere that you can pull other people into TAR?

Perhaps this is what Mesaana did with all her Black Ajah. Simply going into the Dream normally, then pulling the others in behind her.
I think I remember Moridin/Ishamael doing it to Darkfriends a few times.

How Egwene's followers could all be so fully in TAR is still a mystery though.

GonzoTheGreat
12-31-2010, 04:02 AM
Didn't I read somewhere that you can pull other people into TAR?

Perhaps this is what Mesaana did with all her Black Ajah. Simply going into the Dream normally, then pulling the others in behind her.Now that is an interesting suggestion.

Of course, one could then wonder why she needed those ter'angreal. But it is possible that she did not need them at all, that she only wanted to deny their use to the side of the Light.

The Immortal One
01-02-2011, 01:27 AM
But it is possible that she did not need them at all, that she only wanted to deny their use to the side of the Light.

Now that sounds like a Forsaken thing to do. Waste time stealing all the Light side toys and then don't bother using them anyway. Then use a different way and lose the battle.

Stupid Forsaken.

Juan
01-02-2011, 02:51 AM
haha I could buy that she pulled the others into TAR.

Does it bother anyone else that Mogheiden was supposedly the best in TAR, even better than Lanfear, and yet she wasn't very good at in her little TAR battle? Mesaana on the other hand was never considered one of the best and yet she put up a much better fight. Seems fairly inconsistent with what we've been told.

Glen
01-02-2011, 03:57 AM
Does it bother anyone else that Mogheiden was supposedly the best in TAR, even better than Lanfear, and yet she wasn't very good at in her little TAR battle? Mesaana on the other hand was never considered one of the best and yet she put up a much better fight. Seems fairly inconsistent with what we've been told.
Moghedien was the best of the forsaken. But I think it's been fairly well-established by now that they don't hold a candle to Perrin, Egwene, the wise ones... or even Nynaeve, Elayne, Leane, or Siuan.

Mesaana's moves in T'A'R were predicated on two things - brute force, and things likely learned from Moghedien after Moghedien's experience with Nynaeve.

Basically, Mesaana was orchestrating things, but most of the activity in T'A'R was done by her minions of the Black Ajah. What little she did herself was a near carbon copy of what Nynaeve did to Moghedien, except that she was inferior to Egwene. And the Black Ajah didn't show particular skill in T'A'R - they pretty much depended on the One Power.

So I don't think there's anything inconsistent, just that the forsaken aren't anywhere near as skilled in T'A'R as they think.

GonzoTheGreat
01-02-2011, 05:25 AM
To be fair, I'm not sure we have anything more than Moghedien's thoughts to support the idea that Moghedien was better in TAR than Lanfear was.

morat'corlm
01-02-2011, 02:04 PM
Birgitte:Lanfear always claimed Tel’aran’rhiod for her own, but Moghedien could do things here far beyond Lanfear, though she has not Lanfear’s strength in the world of flesh. I think she would not take the risk of confronting Lanfear.

Juan
01-02-2011, 02:22 PM
And

BWB
Her greatest asset was her ability within the World of Dreams, Tel'aran'rhiod. Within its dimensions her skills surpassed even Lanfear's, despite the latter's claim of sovereignty.

rahvin2j3
01-30-2011, 09:50 PM
I was just curious. Do correct me if i'm wrong on this:

During the meeting with Shielyn, Yukiri, Leane, and Seanie were somehow transparent because they were using the copied dream ter'angreal. However, during the fight, Leane was chosen to remain and fight the Black sisters. I believe during the fight Leane used the OP to fight.

Now, iirc, during Nyn's fight with Moggy. She said that if she's using a copy ter'angreal, she can barely channel at all.

Assuming this is the case, how come Nyn, Siuan, or even the Black sisters use the OP during their fight? The BS used the OP to fight, and iirc, those were Sleepweavers. They are not meant to let any channeler enter WoD completely.

One other thing I've noticed as well, when Saerin (Nyn) reported that they were attacked by BS, several of them were quite strong. Who could they be?

Thoughts pls

Terez
01-30-2011, 11:06 PM
It's a plot hole. So far as I can recall, no one came up with an explanation for it.

sythmaster
01-30-2011, 11:34 PM
I assumed the BS used the rings Sheriam "stole back" in the rebel camp.

Also didn't they steal some when the original 13 left? I know a few required the OP to work (gaurding Egwene in Tear), but some of them could have lesser limits on amount of power available.

As far as the non-black sisters channeling in the fight, I can't think of a good reason past plothole.

I was certain there was a few "good" dream terangreal that allowed channelling besides the ring one Egwene/Elayne/Nyn used...

morat'corlm
01-30-2011, 11:42 PM
Popular title. (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4960)

I don't know if I buy into Weird Harold's explanation, but nothing else is particularly satisfactory either.

Juan
01-30-2011, 11:45 PM
Welcome to TL Ravhin!

And thanks morat. I was about to suggest that.

Terez
01-31-2011, 12:09 AM
Threads merged.

Juan
01-31-2011, 12:20 AM
You just think you're cool because you got mod powers. Show off. :P

Terez
01-31-2011, 12:38 AM
I was intending on going through the whole forum and merging all the threads that are about the same thing. None of them overlap, so there wouldn't be any confusion for people reading the thread after the fact. But I decided I have better things to do.