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hmmwhatshouldmynamebe
12-29-2010, 10:38 PM
OKAY so I am on christmas break from college and thus have nothing better to do with my life besides re-read Towers of Midnight and look at peoples theories online and possibly re-read the rest of the series. This is my first ever post cause I just got wicked excited about this after I was reading someone elses opinion that the First Among Vermin was Rand. ANYWAYS here we go:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Towers of Midnight
"In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come. Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself"

I don't know if any one has thought of this yet, but my interpretation of that quote is that the First Among Vermin could be Padan Fain (Mordeth/Ordeith/Jeraal Mordeth/whatever the nutter is being called)! Because it says "the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy" Him who will Destroy could be the Dark One.. right? Makes sense.

And a possible argument could be that the D.O. isn't called that, but he has three different names in just that passage. He is also called the Greatest One and the Lord of the Evening. Him who will Destroy could very well be referring to the Dark One. After all the other 2 paragraphs are in reference to him, why shouldn't he be referred to in the the middle one.

I just wanted to throw another possibility out there because Rand would be the obvious one, when lumped in with Mat & Perrin. It could be? Padan Fain is mentioned in the Prologue of ToM (pgs.43-45) and it says "He walked on through the Blight." (page 45)

OMG OMG it could be him cause READY, I was just reading the part involving him and it says Perhaps he would get some gloves. But if he did, he couldn't cut his hand. What a problem.... so this could work and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy,
Doesn't say why he needs to lift his hand, but it would make sense for someone needing to give their blood, even just a drop, to help free the Dark One.

I'm arguing with myself here as I type this, so I apologize! Another argument could be that since it is from The Prophecy of the Shadow that it would make sense for Rand to be called First among Vermin cause of the whole dark side not liking the light side, but it also makes sense for Fain(in my opinion).

okay.. I really didn't intend to ramble on this long. I just got excited. What do ya'll think? I could be totally wrong. But hey.. this is called theoryland :)

Marie Curie 7
12-29-2010, 11:22 PM
OKAY so I am on christmas break from college and thus have nothing better to do with my life besides re-read Towers of Midnight and look at peoples theories online and possibly re-read the rest of the series. This is my first ever post cause I just got wicked excited about this after I was reading someone elses opinion that the First Among Vermin was Rand. ANYWAYS here we go:

. . .

I don't know if any one has thought of this yet, but my interpretation of that quote is that the First Among Vermin could be Padan Fain (Mordeth/Ordeith/Jeraal Mordeth/whatever the nutter is being called)! Because it says "the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy" Him who will Destroy could be the Dark One.. right? Makes sense.

Yeah, I'd say that others have thought of it before. If you have indeed read other the theories that have been posted, then it should have been obvious to you that the two leading contestants for 'First Among Vermin' are probably Rand and Padan Fain.

For example, you might try this link and read up on some of the theories and discussion related to the Dark Prophecy: Prophecy Roundup (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4354)

hmmwhatshouldmynamebe
12-29-2010, 11:30 PM
I did a search and when i typed in whatever I did, I cannot recall, it didn't come up so I thought hmm maybe no one wrote about it.
And I haven't checked out the prophecy roundup thread, so maybe I might just do that. And from what I've read NO it hasn't been obvious that he was the other choice because the ones I have read only mention Rand being that person.

Also.. I was referring to a thread about it. I mean... it's kind of hard to read EVERY bit of information out there. Or find it on this site for that matter. There's a lot of stuff going on. Sorry!

Juan
12-29-2010, 11:59 PM
Don't worry about it! It's cool. Welcome to theoryland glad to see you theorizing! You decide on a name yet? :P

hmmwhatshouldmynamebe
12-30-2010, 12:18 AM
My problem is a lot of people write about a lot of stuff. And then it'll lead off to different tangents and I'm like oh bloody hell I don't want to read about THIS I only wanna hear about this! So I accidentally skip some parts. oooops!

And bahahahha the name I came up with to register with theoryland is even better "idonthaveacreativename" yeah... haha. then they made me have a second one so I was like psh I dont have one!

I just got wicked excited after reading some other peoples stuff and then had my book and was like OH MAN WHAT IF?! Cause I just read a lot of Rand was him. And I'm so stoked to find this site. I hadn't thought to check the internet before, cause no one I know reads this series and I love to talk about books and ideas. I was on wikipedia cause I had looked something up regarding the Wheel of Time and was like WHAT IF.. and found some sites. I mean before I was coming up with my own theories and to have them later come true in books, well.. it's awesome. So now I found somewhere to talk about ideas for the next and final book. It is hella cool.

Terez
12-30-2010, 12:29 AM
lol, welcome to Theoryland. I also favor Fain, for some of the same reasons you mentioned, and more, but there are a few people who are really opposed to that idea. They're also generally opposed to Rand being the Broken Wolf. Which I think is incredibly obvious.

Also, your name and your...um...hyper posts make you seem like an ADD 15-yo. No offense. ;)

Juan
12-30-2010, 12:37 AM
Yeah! Kinda like we're going off about something else now... haha

Glad you made it here. Hopefully you'll stick around. I totally get you because no one I know personally reads this so this is a pretty fantastic place.

Sadly enough, I've never been interested in prophecies, so I'm not well versed in them. I just read them quickly...

In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come. Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself.

I just re-read the passage of that dark prophecy. After a quick thought process, these are my thoughts. (I know Juan talking about Prophecies? This is insane).

One-Eyed Fool = Mat
First Among Vermin = Moridin
Him Who Will Destroy = Dark One
Fallen Blacksmith = Perrin
Broken Wolf = ?

Mat has one eye. Uno does too, but I don't think the prophecies are talking about him... And Mat is a fool in the sense that he fools around a lot. That one's pretty obvious I think.

First Among Vermin seems to me to be fairly obvious too although there's much discussion here. First Among Vermin seems to refer to the big chief of the Shadow. Moridin is Nae'blis so I think he takes the cake. P.S. I don't think he really took any cake. It also makes sense because he would be interested in setting the Dark One free, whom is fairly obvious to me to be Him Who Will Destroy. Especially since it says bring freedom to Him Who Will Destroy. The main story climax is about the Dark One breaking free and the Last Battle, so if Him Who Will Destroy needs to be brought freedom, then it points to the Dark One. Also the title given seems to point to the Dark One.

Fallen Blacksmith, I'm just throwing a dart and saying Perrin because he's the only main character blacksmith-like person worthy of being in the Prophecies we know. And especially since Moridin and Graendal were so worried about him because he's going to play a big role in the Last Battle. So I'd think it'd be him the prophecy is referring to.

Broken Wolf... well.. Hopper comes to mind... but honestly, I don't see how that would "bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself." Rand would fit that.. but I'm not sure how he's really a wolf in any way...

That's my quick take on things.

@Terez
You said "cum" in your signature.... No offense. I tease of course. ;)

GonzoTheGreat
12-30-2010, 03:43 AM
Welcome, MeBe!
"In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come. Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself"Let's see:
The One-Eyed Fool is Mat.
The First Among Vermin is Rand.
The Fallen Blacksmith is Perrin.
Those three are clearly mentioned together, and assuming that anyone else would part of this select group is rather grasping for straws.

The Broken Wolf is not the Fallen Blacksmith, so it isn't Perrin. So, the Broken Wolf is probably Jain Farstrider, who died in the Midnight Tower, and who will be mourned rather widely.

Mort
12-30-2010, 09:09 AM
One-Eyed Fool = Mat
First Among Vermin = Moridin
Him Who Will Destroy = Dark One
Fallen Blacksmith = Perrin
Broken Wolf = ?



One-Eyed fool = Mat

First Among Vermin = Rand, the shadow wouldn't refer to any of their leaders/followers as "vermin". Probably a play on words from "First Among Servants" from AOL, which LTT was by being Tamyrlin.

Fallen Blacksmith = Perrin. What is up with his pride I dunno though...

Broken Wolf does sound like Jain, since I too don't think it's Perrin, doesn't fit. Dunno what it means that he is consumed by the midnight towers though... Been thinking the Midnight towers are either the real towers in Seanchan or a metaphor for the Forsaken...

"And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself". I'm guessing this is back to referencing the DO, not the Broken Wolf.

sheikh chilli
12-30-2010, 10:02 AM
first among vermin is rand al thor. that's obvious. LTT was first among servants.

edit: beaten by mort

Terez
12-30-2010, 11:40 AM
It's a nice connection, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's 'obvious'. Fain is pretty obvious too.

Kimon
12-30-2010, 12:28 PM
It's a nice connection, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's 'obvious'. Fain is pretty obvious too.

Perhaps, but Fain as the First Among Vermin seems like a non sequitur if one assumes that the others are references to members of the Light. It seems like the real crux here though is whether or not you think that Rand will carry out his plan to break the seals. If he does, then he makes obvious sense as the First Among Vermin, the one that will free Him Who Will Destroy.

Terez
12-30-2010, 01:22 PM
Perhaps, but Fain as the First Among Vermin seems like a non sequitur if one assumes that the others are references to members of the Light.
Why should we assume that, though? It seems a lot to assume. Fain is also an enemy of the Shadow.

I think the strongest mark against it being Fain is that we don't know of any other prophecies about him. Min didn't see anything around him, and RJ says he's kinda sidestepped the Pattern.

It seems like the real crux here though is whether or not you think that Rand will carry out his plan to break the seals.
Most people think he will. Some of us think it will have consequences.

If he does, then he makes obvious sense as the First Among Vermin, the one that will free Him Who Will Destroy.
Ah, but Perrin's the one with the hammer. And the Wolf King could also be First Among Vermin.

Sei'taer
12-30-2010, 03:22 PM
At first, I thought the broken wolf was Slayer.

After thinking about it and going through some of the passages in the book, I'm beginning to think it might be Ituralde. Not sure how he could be broken though...he just made an amazing statement by standing strong for Rand. Maybe he is broken by all the people he lost in the fight and the army that was destroyed? We don't really have enough info to add him to the mix yet.

Bashere sticks out too because he carries that baton/mace thing with a wolf head carved into it. Again though, how do you explain the broken part.

I don't know if either of those really has the power or the tavereness to be part of the shadow prophecy.

Perrin's out because he wouldn't be mentioned twice and in two different contexts, this is why I think it isn't Rand either. Hopper is out too, unless he somehow gets tied to the horn, but I think that'd be impossible unless he was there to lead the wolves. Just doesn't really make any sense though.

I don't think Lan has ever been called a wolf or carried anything that had wolf insignia or anything. All I know about it the Golden Crane stuff. His falling would be known though and could bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men. the wolf part doesn't match up though.

So, I'm going with:

The One-Eyed Fool: Mat.
The First Among Vermin: Rand.
The Fallen Blacksmith: Perrin.
The Broken Wolf: Ituralde or Bashere...or maybe someone else I haven't thought of who is referenced with a wolf in some way. Either way, I'm still stuck lol.

I think this is the longest post I've made in years on the theory boards!

sheikh chilli
12-30-2010, 04:01 PM
It's a nice connection, but I wouldn't go so far as to say it's 'obvious'. Fain is pretty obvious too.

you have to look at the context here. besides padan fain is not in league with the mat or perrin.

GonzoTheGreat
12-30-2010, 04:18 PM
Besides, since Fain has a strong tendency to eat anyone he hangs out with, he's usually alone. That makes him not a likely candidate for someone who is part of a group.

Kimon
12-30-2010, 04:49 PM
Why should we assume that, though? It seems a lot to assume. Fain is also an enemy of the Shadow.

I think the strongest mark against it being Fain is that we don't know of any other prophecies about him. Min didn't see anything around him, and RJ says he's kinda sidestepped the Pattern.


The fact that he is an enemy of the Shadow as well, doesn't seem enough to place him in this role, especially considering that he is not the head of a side in the struggle, he is but a saboteur that is an annoyance to both sides. Thus the designation of "first among" seems an ill-fit for him. how could that make him "first" amongst anything? Now he does have some lackies, and while those lackies are rather vermin-esque, Fain is not the leader of a third army in this melee, so referring to him in such a way that implies leadership seems odd. The Vermin reference simply seems so much more logical as mere sarcastic twisting of the true roles, as is the case with the others. Hence the reference to the 3 ta'veren: Rand as First among Vermin, instead of referring to him as the true Tamyrlin; Mat as the One-eyed Fool instead of as the Gambler; Perrin as the Fallen Blacksmith instead of as the Blacksmith King.

The other problem is with the fact that Fain, as you note, seems to have sidestepped the pattern. Alongside this you note that it is odd that we don't have other prophecies about him. But is that odd? If he has sidestepped the pattern, doesn't it make sense that the pattern wouldn't have prophecies that would help explain his role? In a sense both the light and the dark are working for the pattern, hence the fact that both have prophecies explaining their respective roles, but Fain is, if anything, the only "true" Lord of Chaos, since everyone else, even the DO, is acting according to the role that the pattern has assigned them, but Fain alone is an anomaly.

hmmwhatshouldmynamebe
12-30-2010, 07:11 PM
@ Terez. no offense taken. I'm 21 and I'm just enthusiastic about life and such. I figure I have to write grammatically correct, form coherent sentences and exclude extraneous adverbs, adjectives, & filler words ALL THE TIME for papers in college so when I'm writing casual I'm going to write like my thought process and make the text more chill.

@Juan Normally I don't go into detail about the prophecies, because it is prophecy and prophecy can be interpreted various ways. But since I have ALL THIS FREE TIME during my month off I figure.. why not?

I agree about Matt being the "One-Eyed Fool" and "Him who will Destory" as the Dark One.

I can't see "First Among Vermin" being Moridin because it is Prophecy of the Shadow. I can't see them calling themselves Vermin.. ya know?

"Fallen Blacksmith" has to be Perrin. As you said he is the only main blacksmith-esque character who would be worthy of the Prophecies and his importance. The term pride is interesting. In my opinion it could mean several different things, especially when you look up the definition of pride.

"Broken Wolf" I have no idea. That term is very vague because of the following phrase "the one whom Death has known." Death in this series has so many variations it could be.

@ Mort Regarding you believing the "First Among Vermin" is Rand. You said that the shadow wouldn't refer to any of their leaders/followers as "vermin." But Padan Fain isn't specifically on the shadows side. He is, but he is his own class of shadow-nutter. In ToM he killed Worms, he's been able to torture/kill Myrddraal for a while now, he just corrupted a bunch of Trollocs and made his own crazed Trolloc army. He's a dirty, crazed, corrupted, not even a real person any more!

Terez
12-30-2010, 11:50 PM
Moridin specifically referred to Fain as vermin:

TITLE - Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 13 - Wonderful News

"Mesaana is absent again?" Moridin said instead of answering. "A pity. She should hear what I have to say." Plucking the rat from his shoulder by its tail, he watched the animal wave its legs futilely. Nothing except the rat seemed to exist for him. "Small, apparently unimportant matters can become very important," he murmured. "This rat. Whether Isam succeeds in finding and killing that other vermin, Fain. A word whispered in the wrong ear, or not spoken to the right. A butterfly stirs its wings on a branch, and on the other side of the world a mountain collapses." Suddenly the rat twisted, trying to sink its teeth into his wrist. Casually, he flung the creature away. In midair, there was a burst of flame, something hotter than flame, and the rat was gone. Moridin smiled.

Rahvin571
12-31-2010, 05:59 PM
I agree with the Broken Wolf being one of our Great Captains - either Ituralde, Bashere - or both. I don't think the "broken" part has happened yet, and that it will occur during the Last Battle.

We saw Ituralde bending in ToM, but Rand saved him before he could break. There was specific mention on how the DO used extra resources because he wanted to crush the Light's hope. In the LB I don't think he/Bashere shall be so lucky.

My thinking is this: We have a couple of Randland's armies line up for a battle with the Shadow. They are led by at least one of the aforementioned Great Captains. The attack beings, but it turns out that Demandred is the Shadow's general here (the army could include some or all of the one he's got ready). The Light is overcome, the army absolutely shattered.

Demandred, one of the Midnight Towers, has dealt such a crippling blow to the Light that the other armies and rulers feel certain they will lose. The Last Battle can not be won by anything the armies can do - its up to Rand to pull another game-ending maneuver like LTT did in order to ensure survival.




As a side note, this could also be something that helps justify the series-long wait we've had to endure to finally meet our "super" Forsaken. Rather than just show up, twirl his mustache, and die, Demandred could actually deal some severe damage before he goes down. That's my 2 cents anyways.

Cortar
12-31-2010, 06:44 PM
I agree with the Broken Wolf being one of our Great Captains - either Ituralde, Bashere - or both. I don't think the "broken" part has happened yet, and that it will occur during the Last Battle.

We saw Ituralde bending in ToM, but Rand saved him before he could break. There was specific mention on how the DO used extra resources because he wanted to crush the Light's hope. In the LB I don't think he/Bashere shall be so lucky.


If it is this, then it is almost certain that its Ituralde considering his nickname.


Also, is it possible that the same person fulfills multiple roles? Why can't Perrin be the blacksmith AND the wolf?

da'caballien
12-31-2010, 06:54 PM
I believe that First Among Vermin is Rand, but if FAV is Fain, then He Who Will Destroy is definitely Rand. Rand will in a bind, then Fain will come in and kill everything, then Rand will fight Fain.

But I find it much more likely that FAV is Rand, and that Fain is outside Prophecy.

Juan
12-31-2010, 08:20 PM
Moridin calling Fain vermin is the best argument in favor of the FAV = Fain theory.

@hmmm

I see what you mean so let me tell you a little story. Years ago I knew this kid who was teased and insulted by being called a loser. Every day the others would call him that and you could tell that this really hurt his feelings. This wasn't done as simple playful teasing, it was said as a demeaning term. He asked the others to stop, so they knew it was bothering him, and yet they didn't. And a being loser or being called a loser is generally not a good thing. So one day, this kid comes in and when he was called a loser the next time he was like, "yeah. But I prefer being called mr. loser." And so he embraced the term. So he did refer to himself as loser, but after that there was no point in calling him one, because it didn't seem to affect him, so it was wasted energy. And the other kids stopped.

*Note the actual insult was worse, and his response was slightly different, but the point remains the same. He embraced the demeaning term and used it as his own.

Point is, people can embrace terms that are demeaning and refer to themselves in that way. Kind of like when girls call each other sluts, etc. Or when my black friends call each other "nigga." In the same way, the Shadow can do this too with the term vermin. The could very well have embraced this name and maybe even others as use it as their own.

The main argument I've seen from it being Moridin is that they wouldn't call themselves vermin. But consider this scenario, which I believe is very possible and applicable in this case. I think it's Moridin, although if I were to make a second pick, I'd say it's Rand because of the whole I'm breaking the seals and the whole the Shadow may see Rand as "vermin." But to me it just makes more sense for it to be Moridin.

GonzoTheGreat
01-01-2011, 05:06 AM
Of course, most Forsaken were already doing that. They got insulting nicknames (Spider, the Envious, Betrayer of Hope, Wormwood*), and adopted those for their own.

* Actually, this one had to volunteer for it, as far as I know.

sheikh chilli
01-01-2011, 09:08 AM
context people, context. fain has no place in shadow prophescy.. fain has no place amongst the other two taveren mat and perrin. Padan fain is a solo act.

Terez
01-01-2011, 01:13 PM
Again, the context doesn't necessarily imply what you assume it does.

Cortar
01-01-2011, 02:40 PM
Didn't RJ/BS say Fain was outside of the pattern plan's or something? Wouldn't that imply that he couldn't be apart of an prophecies?

Belazamon
01-03-2011, 09:20 PM
Thus the designation of "first among" seems an ill-fit for him. how could that make him "first" amongst anything? Now he does have some lackies, and while those lackies are rather vermin-esque, Fain is not the leader of a third army in this melee, so referring to him in such a way that implies leadership seems odd.
Kimon raises an excellent point. If Fain is First among some vermin, who would we say is the Second among those vermin? The Third?

Keep in mind, Narg's already dead, so I doubt he has a place left in this hierarchy.

Res_Ipsa
01-03-2011, 11:05 PM
Consider how Rand's position as the Car'a'carn is the first among equals. Rand is certainly the first among the three Ta'veren. Also the context in which it appears:

"In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come."

Translated as such

In that day, when Matt ravels the halls of mourning, and Rand lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy (tDO), and the last days of Perrin's pride shall come.

This prophecy is perfect within ToM as Matt travels to Genji, Rand begins his plan to loose the DO and Perrin loses his pride and begins to be a true leader.

Res_Ipsa
01-04-2011, 12:42 PM
Bump! I am interested to see if anyone agrees on my above thoery.

FelixPax
01-04-2011, 01:06 PM
Didn't RJ/BS say Fain was outside of the pattern plan's or something?

Brandon claimed that the Dark One would spit Fain out of the Bore... if he attempted to enter. Brandon said that Fain would "taste" bad to the Dark One.


Perhaps Fain lacking a soul, now, is that why he would taste bad?

Wouldn't that imply that he couldn't be apart of an prophecies?

I don't see that can be true.

Through a few of later Fourth Age writings, mention the Moon bleeding...
Maybe the creature formerly known as Padan Fain Mordeth will attack Mierin?
Stabbing the Moon?
Thus causing the Moon to bleed?

Goldie
01-04-2011, 01:21 PM
I didn't think Fain was soulless.
I thought he had two or that the Fain soul and the Mordeth soul hybridized. Something along those lines.

Mort
01-04-2011, 04:02 PM
@Rez Ipsa: Yes, I agree. I don't think it translates to meaning that Perrin will die, like Graendal and Moridin seems to think.

@Terez: Yeah, Fain was called "vermin" by Moridin. The Shadow prophecy calls (what I believe) Rand to be first among vermin. Everyone else who opposes the Shadow would then also be vermin, including Fain.

That and the whole "First among" can't be any clearer to me other than naming Rand by name in that prophecy.

The only question mark to me is the Broken Wolf. The only thing that still hasn't happened as of ToM. I have reconcidered and believe the passage:

Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself"

To be referencing the same thing, thought at first the last sentence referenced back to the DO about his supposedly destruction of the world, having nothing to do with the Broken Wolf. Not sure now.

Just don't know who the Broken Wolf is and what could be done to him that is so bad that it "shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself".

the silent speaker
01-04-2011, 07:18 PM
... To me the Broken Wolf whom death has known seemed pretty obvious: Hopper.

Fain is an interesting possibility for First among Vermin, but a. I agree with the arguments above that it's Rand and b. I think Fain's role lifting his hand vis-a-vis Him Who Will Destroy is to reseal, not to free (think Sméagol in LOTR).

hmmwhatshouldmynamebe
01-07-2011, 05:47 PM
Bah I lost track of who said what, so I’m going to write a general response:

I think Fain still has a soul. Just because he’s some mutated half-Mordeth twisted crazed fellow doesn’t mean he doesn’t have a soul. No where in the books does it say he lost his soul. It just calls him the creature who was once called Padan Fain or the creature that had been Mordeth.

The First Among Vermin could very well be Rand. It makes sense that way in context with who else the prophecy is regarding, but prophecy isn’t always so cut and dry. I mean, this series as shown just how loosely prophecy can be interpreted and that events don’t play out that people think they do or what they think the prophecy means. I just thought it would be an interesting twist if it wasn’t Rand as would seem the obvious choice. I mean Fain getting mentioned in the ToM means he HAS to play some role in the final book.

In between work and just kickin it at home, I am currently re-reading the series and looking for stuff regarding whatever. Anything. There’s a lot of .. foreshadowing stuff in the first book. Within the first 200 pages. It makes me laugh and wonder if RJ did that on purpose. Of course some of it he obviously did, but I digress. Off to continue reading and digging up information. Maybe some more info to back up the Fain is First Among Vermin idea.

Juan
01-07-2011, 06:10 PM
Since the two biggest arguments for FAV seem to be for Rand and Fain, then the best twist would be Moridin. ;)

Fain will play a part in the last book, no doubt about it.. but it's a completely different thing to be in the prophecy. Just because you're in the last book doesn't mean you have to be part of the prophecy. Plenty of characters who will be in the last book and even play an important role and yet aren't part of prophecies.

hmmwhatshouldmynamebe
01-08-2011, 11:28 AM
haha. That'd be pretty epic if it was Moridin.

I didn't mean it as just because he was in the prophecy means he going to be in the last book. I was just saying that he's gotta play some role in the final book. My comment on him being in the final book was a side thought.

The Angry Druid
01-08-2011, 11:45 AM
We know Ituralde is known as the Wolf.

Seems to me the broken Wolf is most likey he, if not Hopper. No way it is another greet captain who ISN'T know as the wolf, and not Ituralde.

It might explain the ferocity of the attack around Maradon. The Shadow (Moridin) was trying to break Ituralde, and break him from Rand, as he would have been pissed if Rand didn't help as he promised.

It also might give a bit of a ray of hope for the other borderlands. Though certainly being attacked, perhaps not quite as hard as Maradon.

Daekyras
01-10-2011, 10:12 AM
Why should we assume that, though? It seems a lot to assume. Fain is also an enemy of the Shadow.

I think the strongest mark against it being Fain is that we don't know of any other prophecies about him. Min didn't see anything around him, and RJ says he's kinda sidestepped the Pattern.




I was just thinking that. I think RJ said that Fain si "something new" and "unexpected" therefor I think it unlikely that there would be any prophecy about him...

Am I being too literal in taking Broken Wolf as Hopper?

Yes, Yes I probably am!

FelixPax
01-10-2011, 12:09 PM
Bah I lost track of who said what, so I’m going to write a general response:

I think Fain still has a soul. Just because he’s some mutated half-Mordeth twisted crazed fellow doesn’t mean he doesn’t have a soul. No where in the books does it say he lost his soul. It just calls him the creature who was once called Padan Fain or the creature that had been Mordeth.

Moiraine claimed in EotW book, that Padan Fain barely had a soul. That's a time before he gained possession of the red ruby dagger. The Creature formerly known as Padan Fain Mordeth pov's in TofM book has no problems with Dreams or Nightmares, as he's finally broken free of the dream realm. Untied from it.

There are similar tales & myths of similar types of individuals in Slavic mythology. Recall Brandon Sanderson did once mention Slavic mythology as a source for the creation of Perrin's character. I believe some of Fain's changes are found in the very same mythological source.


Here's that Moiraine quotation about Fain's soul:

The water Moiraine poured into the basin steamed as if only just off the boil. She pushed up her sleeves and began vigorously washing her hands without regard for the heat of the water. “I said he was worse than vile, but I did not come close. I do not believe I have ever met someone so abject and debased, yet at the same time so foul. I feel soiled from touching him, and I do not mean for the filth on his skin. Soiled in here.” She touched her breast. “The degradation of his soul almost makes me doubt he has one. There is something worse to him than a Darkfriend.”


The Eye of the World, Chapter 47 "More Tales of the Wheel" -- Rand al'Thor point of view; with Moiraine, Lan, Lord Agelmar, Egwene, Nynaeve, Mat, Perrin, Loial

The Dark One needs a soul to be able to torture it, so if a Fain has no soul he is beyond the reach of the Dark One for now. Fain is blacker than black, for he casts no Shadow.

hmmwhatshouldmynamebe
01-10-2011, 09:55 PM
BARELY had a soul isn't equivalent to DOESN'T have a soul. I just finished re-reading Eye of the World so I know what passage you're referring to, but no where does it say Padan Fain has no soul.

And that's all well and good that there are similar tales & myths of similar types of individuals in Slavic mythology, but that doesn't mean they have been applied to this character just because it sounds similar. In addition, you said BS said it was a source for the creation of Perrin's character. Does not say it was a source for Fain's character. So that Slavic mythology stuff means nothing to me, it isn't justifiable proof that Fain has no soul.

FelixPax
01-11-2011, 02:15 PM
BARELY had a soul isn't equivalent to DOESN'T have a soul. I just finished re-reading Eye of the World so I know what passage you're referring to, but no where does it say Padan Fain has no soul.


If read to TofM book... what will you find?

The creature that had once been Padan Fain walked down the side of a hill

Towers of Midnight, Prologue "Distinctions" -- Formerly known as Padan Fain point of view


What has changed within Padan Fain, to make him in his very own mind "the creature that had once been Padan Fain"? Do tell please....

He was finally free.

The creature that had been Mordeth reached the bottom of the hill and did not look back at the large, purplish mass that he'd left stop it.

Towers of Midnight, Prologue "Distinctions" -- Formerly known as Padan Fain point of view


Likewise how has he change to become some else other than "The creature that had been Mordeth"?


Recall that Mordeth had "no shadow":

Suddenly Rand realized what had been nagging at him about the man. The scattered torches in the hallway had given each of them a ring of shadows, just as the torches in the treasure room did. Only . . . He was so shocked he said it out loud. “You don’t have a shadow.”

A goblet fell from Mat’s hand with a crash.

Mordeth nodded, and for the first time his fleshy eyelids opened all the way. His sleek face suddenly appeared pinched and hungry. “So.” He stood straighter, seeming taller. “It is decided.”


The Eye of the World, Chapter 19 "Shadow's Waiting" -- Rand al'Thor point of view; with Mordeth, Mat Cauthon, Perrin in Aridhol



Previous to his point of view in Towers of Midnight, Padan Fain Mordeth had been complaining about his "Dreams". Dreams where the Shadow was after him, to torture and possibly kill him. Yet in the TofM Prologue the creature formerly known as Fain or Mordeth, mentions a change, a freedom... however not once complains about Dreams anymore.


The point is this "Creature" has no Dreams. Dreams found in the TAR.
Just like the soulless ghosts who haunt the living found in multiple Slavic mythologies.


It's fine if you want doubt my claims... that's Theoryland for ya... except, one would still need to explain what this Creature did to a band of trollocs? (TofM, Prologue) I claim Fain was separated their souls from their bodies, whether being destroyed or cut or stolen. (Yes, there's a difference.) The very same event which has occurred to this Creature himself.

This Creature's trolloc force of zombies is directly a kin to the Shadow's own Soulless.


What's the difference between the Creature's Trollocs force of zombies, and the many Soulless who have attempted to kill Rand al'Thor multiple times throughout the series?
Do the Soulless still have some amount of a shadow, whereas the Creature's Trollocs do not at all?



Remember that Padan Fain told Moiraine & Alviarin he walked into Shayol Ghul before. The Dark One touched Fain's soul then. Just like all Myrddraal whom have a connection to the Dark One.

Did anyone else noticed that the Creature's touch upon a Myrddraal led to its immediate death, not a zombie-like soulless state like the band of Trollocs?



What did Mierin once claim about Myrddraal, and the Soulless Gray Men?

They both lack Dreams.

“I serve,” she said quickly. “I have served the Lord of the Twilight long. Long did I lie imprisoned for my service, in an endless, dreamless sleep. Only Gray Men and Myrddraal are denied dreams. Even Trollocs can dream. Dreams were always mine, to use and walk. Now I am free again, and I will use what is mine.”

The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 36 "Daughter of the Night" -- Perrin point of view; Mierin speaking with Ishamael/Moridin/Ba'alzamon


Perhaps Dark One holds Myrddraal & Gray Men very souls personally?
While the Creature personally stakes a claim to very single Trolloc soul touched (in TofM book)?
Myrddraal dies because there is no soul to take, in possession by the Creature?




To have a soul, one needs humor it seems too.

Why? Look at Osan'gar thoughts on Myrddraal:

Osan’gar would have thought the Myrddraal’s bloodless lips twitched in a smile, except that was impossible, here or anywhere. Even Trollocs had a sense of humor, if a vile and violent one, but not Myrddraal. “You were both given the best that could be taken in the Borderlands.” Its voice was a viper rustling in dry grass, “It is a fine body, strong and healthy. And better than the alternative.”

Lord of Chaos, Prologue "The First Message" -- Osan'gar point of view; with Aran'gar & Shaidar Haran


Nothing about the Gray Men suggests they have any sense of humor, either.



What does Shaidar Haran claim about a Body, a Soul and the Mind?

Shaidar Haran turned its attention back to the woman twitching in its fist. Her face was beginning to go purple, and her feet kicked feebly. “You will adapt. The body bends to the soul, but the mind bends to the body. You are adapting already. Soon it will be as if you had never had any other. Or you may refuse. Then another will take your place, and you will be given to . . . my brothers, blocked as you are.” Those thin lips twitched again. “They miss their sport in the Borderlands.”


Lord of Chaos, Prologue "The First Message" -- Osan'gar point of view; with Aran'gar & Shaidar Haran


Conclusion

Curious is it? "The Body bends to the Soul"
Myrddraal have no sense of humor, nor dreams... thus die at the Creature's Touch (TofM, Prologue).

Trollocs have a sense of humor, dreams... thus become mindless zombies at the Creature's Touch. (TofM, Prologue)

Why any difference?
Because the Creature has stolen their very Souls. Trolloc souls in this case. They retain no independent mind at all. Mindless zombie Trollocs. That's it.


What's the difference between Tarna's fate at the Black Tower, a random Grey Man and the Creature's band of Trollocs in the Blight?

It only a question of who controls the souls in question.





Moiraine suggested as much early in the story too:

“Mordeth alone was not consumed by Mashadar, but he was snared by it, and he, too, has waited within these walls through the long centuries. Others have seen him. Some he has influenced through gifts that twist the mind and taint the spirit, the taint waxing and waning until it rules . . . or kills. If ever he convinces someone to accompany him to the walls, to the boundary of Mashadar’s power, he will be able to consume the soul of that person. Mordeth will leave, wearing the body of the one he worse than killed, to wreak his evil on the world again.”


The Eye of the World, Chapter 19 "Shadow's Waiting" -- Rand point of view; with Nynaeve, Egwene, Mat, Perrin, Moiraine, Thom in Aridhol


The thing is the Creature can now steal souls, outside of the once time borders of Aridhol. The Creature is free of the "Dark One", free of "Dreams", and more speculatively has freed the "Black Wind" too. The Creature is one with the Black Wind, whom previously has stolen souls of Ogiers in the Ways (TDR book).


The Creature is one with the Black Wind--now.


The Creature is one with the Black Wind, who was itself a creation of the mixing of two evils connected by Ways. Padan Fain was touched by the Dark One, while the Aridhol was touched by Mordeth. The Creature and the Black Wind, are one in the same--now.

Sukoto
01-11-2011, 07:24 PM
Hopper's demise did not "bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men." It brought sorrow to Perrin and Faile and the wolves, but no one else besides Slayer even knows about his 2nd death, nor would it "shake their very will" if they found about it. Sorry, but Hopper doesn't qualify as fulfilling that prophecy.

hmmwhatshouldmynamebe
01-17-2011, 09:18 PM
FelixPax--
Yet in the TofM Prologue the creature formerly known as Fain or Mordeth, mentions a change, a freedom... however not once complains about Dreams anymore.
Everytime Fain talks he doesn't mention dreams so to say that he doesn't complain about dreams in the ToM Prologue doesn't mean a thing.

Nothing of what you said proves to me he doesn't have a soul! I can tell you for sure as of The Great Hunt he STILL has a soul. I am slowly working my way through the series again, paying close attention to every little detail.

(pg. 196)Padan Fain stared northward out into the night, past the only fire in his camp, smiling a fixed smile that never touched his eyes. He still thought of himself as Padan Fain---Padan Fain was the core of him---but he had been changed, and he knew it.

so he's still inately Padan Fain. he still has a soul, his core, is Padan Fain despite the change he has gone through.

(pg. 197) Fain turned his back on the cacophony to look at his Darkfriends. They were his, too, body and soul. Such souls as they had left. Every one of them was mired as deeply as he had been, before he found his way out.

Still has a soul here.

(pg.675) “He’s a Darkfriend.” (spoken by Rand) (Moiraine responds) “More than that. Worse than that. Padan Fain was the Dark One’s creature to the depths of his soul, but I believe that in Shadar Logoth he fell afoul of Mordeth, who was as vile in fighting the Shadow as ever the Shadow itself was. Mordeth tried to consume Fain’s soul, to have a human body again, but found a soul that had been touched directly by the Dark One, and what resulted. . . . What resulted was neither Padan Fain nor Mordeth, but something far more evil, a blend of the two. Fain---let us call him that---is more dangerous than you believe.”
Still has a soul here. Mordeth tried to consume Fain's soul, but it didn't work. It twisted into the messed up being Fain is now, especially with him still carrying that dagger around. But as of the end of The Great Hunt he still has a soul. It doesn't say anywhere that his soul was stolen, or it's gone from him, etc.

To me, the information you provided is not valid evidence that Fain doesn't have a soul. I find discussing this interesting though so if you have more keep it coming!! Also send me some links to the Slavic mythology you were referring to, that sounds interesting as well!!

Juan
01-17-2011, 09:25 PM
I mean so far the only soulless people we've seen are Grey Men.. and they swear their souls to the DO... From the description of Grey Men, Fain never swore his soul the DO.. but then again.. Machin Shin eats souls... and Fain was kinda eaten.. but then again we're told Shin DIDN'T eat him if I remember correctly.. and I don't know if Mordeth actually stole his soul, or took it over, or something...

Point is, so far, I think Padan Fain does have a soul... as evil and as little as it may be.

Fie
01-18-2011, 02:13 AM
I don'tknow. I'm thinking about the reason the DO sends Slayer to finish off the creature that was Padan Fain ( shall we call him from hither tCtwPF? ;) )
Is it because there's something in the prophecies about him that the DO has realized would be to his disadvantage ? Or just because he can't use him as intended before anymore ? Or because he can't stand a being being around that's without soul, because there just were supposed to be HIS soulless beings in the world ?
I guess it's about the prophecies and him winning the game, because he wouldn't care that much else. I think the DO thinks he has already figured out Fain's possible role "at the end" and wants to prevent it, like he doesn't want Rand to be killed before TG. The question is if the DO has puzzled out Fain-entity's role from what we also know .
But, I absolutely don't think that Fain is the "first among vermins", that IS absolutely Rand.

Juan
01-18-2011, 02:08 PM
Well, the DO sees Fain as a renegade. So the DO kinda wants Fain out of the way/dead. The only thing is... he'll be pretty difficult to kill... he has some pretty interesting powers now... haha

Fie
01-19-2011, 03:00 AM
Yes, by now he definately wants him out of the way. I´m just trying to find out if it has something to do with him having understood some specific thing about Fain in the prophecies (and maybe we could puzzle it out as well) or if he just in general wants him out of the way because he can´t control him any longer and is afraid he will do something but doesn´t know any details...

The Immortal One
01-20-2011, 08:36 PM
I figured it was more along the lines of the Dark One having Fain killed because Fain no longer obeys.

And perhaps partly because the mission Fain was sent on - to Emond's Field in the beginning - turned out to be a massive failure. And we've seen the Shadow's "reward" for failure.

GonzoTheGreat
01-21-2011, 03:39 AM
I think that the closest we have to an answer is what Slayer said to Perrin:
"It was only a few hundred to begin, Goldeneyes. Just enough to keep those fool Whitecloaks off balance and see that the renegade died." Slayer's voice became angry. "The Shadow consume me if that man does not have more luck than the White Tower." Abruptly he chuckled. "But you, Goldeneyes. Your presence was a surprise. There are those who want your head on a pike. Your precious Two Rivers will be harrowed from end to end, now, to root you out. What do you say to that, Goldeneyes?"

LewsTherin10
03-29-2011, 09:52 AM
Perhaps the Shadow has interpreted this prophecy wrong and it's entirely not what we think. Moridin is pretty sure that Perrin was forseen to die but he lived through Grendal's plans. Maybe we should be thinking outside the box with this prophecy.

Grig
03-29-2011, 10:17 AM
Moridin is pretty sure that Perrin was forseen to die but he lived through Grendal's plans.

That's actually debatable. Moridin said several times that Perrin would slip through Graendal's fingers. Sanderson said Moridin always knows a lot more than we think he does. It seems likely he was just setting up Graendal for a fall, to make her more easily manipulable and greatly reduce her capability for independent action against his wishes. Moridin/GLotD want to end everything, while the other Forsaken simply want to carve out power. Better to rein in the less easily manipulable FS to ensure desired outcomes.

Thinking outside the box is still, of course, recommended.

LewsTherin10
03-29-2011, 12:23 PM
Good point Grig. We don't actually get to see the prophecy that Moridin shows Grendael. It could be the one we're talking about written at the end of the book or it could be a different one. My point is that the Forsaken are probably interpreting these dark prophecies to suit their needs. They're not looking at them objectively because of their corrupted minds.

IamChosen
03-30-2011, 03:07 PM
"In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come."

I believe that this isn't meant as much to leave us clueless or wondering, than to give us a hint of bad things to come, or even interpret some of what has passed, namely:

- Mat will be / has been somewhere. I do not know if the Towers of Ghenjei qualify as halls of mourning. I have no idea what it means.

- Rand will bring freedom to the Dark One and the Dark One knows it. I wonder why did Herid Fel had to die. The Dark One has always known Rand's plan.

- Perrin will die (as interpreted by Moridin and Graendal). I wonder if Perrin's "pride" was his insistence in not being leader.

Regardless, if Towers of Ghenjei = halls of mourning, calling the summit at the Field of Merillor = lifting his hand to free Him who Will Destroy, and Perrin's stubborness = his pride, then this prophecy was already fulfilled.

"Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself."

Let's see, we have many candidates for the Broken Wolf in this thread. Unfortunately, nobody would mourn any of them as described except for Rand.

So, I'm going to take a wild stab at it. The Broken Wolf is Bashere, but his destruction isn't his death.

Min saw something dark about Bashere. The Midnight Towers are the Forsaken. A Forsaken will Compel Bashere to kill Rand. That should "bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself."

arioch
03-30-2011, 08:00 PM
- Rand will bring freedom to the Dark One and the Dark One knows it. I wonder why did Herid Fel had to die. The Dark One has always known Rand's plan.


The thing here is that Herid Fel was killed AFTER he told Rand something that Rand interpreted as that he needs to destroy the remaining seals. This is nowhere near the entirety of what Fel might have been able to contribute.

At least Fel was able to help Rand flesh out his plan to cleanse saidin... he wasn't able to offer advice on actually resealing the Bore.

LewsTherin10
03-31-2011, 11:39 AM
I'm not sure if anyone posted this already and I didn't feel like reading the whole thread.

Assuming this dark prophecy isthe one Moridin showed Graendal, the only way that she could believe Perrin will die is if he's the Broken Wolf
"Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers."
This is the only person that the prophecy is clear about dying. The question is, was Graendal and Moridin's interpretation correct?

IamChosen
03-31-2011, 02:45 PM
The thing here is that Herid Fel was killed AFTER he told Rand something that Rand interpreted as that he needs to destroy the remaining seals. This is nowhere near the entirety of what Fel might have been able to contribute.

At least Fel was able to help Rand flesh out his plan to cleanse saidin... he wasn't able to offer advice on actually resealing the Bore.

True. Also, I doubt that the Great Lord contemplates losing, so even if breaking the seals to rebuild the Bore is the right thing to do, the Great Lord is probably pretty sure that he's going to win between steps one and two.

I'm not sure if anyone posted this already and I didn't feel like reading the whole thread.

Assuming this dark prophecy isthe one Moridin showed Graendal, the only way that she could believe Perrin will die is if he's the Broken Wolf

This is the only person that the prophecy is clear about dying. The question is, was Graendal and Moridin's interpretation correct?

Regarding my theory on the Broken Wolf (Ituralde, Compulsion, killing Rand), I must retract it for failing to match "the one whom Death has known."

Unless Moridin is the one doing the Compulsion, but that's way too farfetched. :)

Usually, the simpler solution is the best.

Weiramon
03-31-2011, 02:53 PM
So, I'm going to take a wild stab at it. The Broken Wolf is Bashere, but his destruction isn't his death.

Min saw something dark about Bashere. The Midnight Towers are the Forsaken. A Forsaken will Compel Bashere to kill Rand. That should "bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself."

No doubt about it. No doubt about it. Surrounding the Lord Dragon are many whose loyalty is . . . questionable.

It wouldn't be a surprise to hear that Lord Bashere had encountered a Cho . . . I mean, a Forsaken like Semirhage, and influenced to the Shadow. By the light, that would give one visions of darkness.

niteshadow29
04-04-2011, 12:39 PM
After re-reading the books for the second time I am convinced that the broken wolf is Bashere.

Several times Faile makes mention of a broken crown without going into further details. Wolves are also used a few times when describing Bashere's clothing or accessories. Perhaps the broken crown is something relating to wolves.

GonzoTheGreat
04-05-2011, 03:39 AM
If there was such a strong link between Bashere, the Broken Crown, and wolves, then I don't think Faile would have thrown out the following:
"I heard every word. Father will approve. He has always said our family blood is growing too soft; not like it was in the old days. I know he thinks I am terribly soft." She gave him a smile fierce enough for any wolf. "Of course, Mother always wanted me to marry a king who splits Trollocs in two with one stroke of his sword. I suppose your axe will suffice, but could you tell her you are the king of the wolves? I don't think anyone will come forward to dispute your claim to that throne. In truth, the splitting of Trollocs will probably do for Mother, but I truly think she would like the other."

LewsTherin10
04-05-2011, 11:25 AM
I'm convinced it's Hopper. He is the one Death has know because he died in EotW so he's already dead. He falls to the Midnight Towers by way of Slayer who works for Moridin/Graendal if we are still assuming the the MT are the Forsaken. Oh and he's a wolf.

Grig
04-05-2011, 11:38 AM
I'm convinced it's Hopper. He is the one Death has know because he died in EotW so he's already dead. He falls to the Midnight Towers by way of Slayer who works for Moridin/Graendal if we are still assuming the the MT are the Forsaken. Oh and he's a wolf.

You might want to finish the prophecy:

And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself.

Now, there are three men (if you count Elyas, Perrin, and Noam/Boundless) who even know the difference between Hopper and their fur coat. Yet Perrin was just more resolved after Hopper's death. Where is the shaking of men's very will itself?

LewsTherin10
04-05-2011, 01:01 PM
I should have read the rest. Dammit!