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logannagol
01-10-2011, 05:09 AM
Hi all, first time poster here.
I was at work pondering the new book when something occurred to me. When Rand goes to the borderlanders, we learn of a new/old foretelling. Now as I see it this foretelling is like a failsafe switch in the pattern, so that in case Rand falls to darkness he will be 'put down'. Now as we know Rand had access to the True Power making the failsafe pretty useless. Now this where I reckon it gets interesting, what if in the pattern's scheme of things Rand is in no way, what so ever, ever able to use the True Power? If this is so then the failsafe should work.
Now remember that the entire world and everyone in it is a part of the pattern, Rand, Mat, Egwene and the Forsaken. Due to this I think it is nigh impossible for the Forsaken to ever actually kill Rand or interfere with him in any huge way (such as 13x13 him), because they are threads of the pattern and hence ultimately under its control. Now the Dark One is outside the pattern, not a part of it. The pattern cannot twist him to its ends but by the same token he cannot twist it. Then comes the bore and now the DO has the ability to alter the pattern if somewhat minimally. Servants of the DO though touched by him are still ultimately a part of the pattern and hence cannot ultimately change its ultimate course (sorry bout all the ultimates).
Now back to Rand touching the TP. This should be impossible because it is completely in opposition to the pattern's design. The situation that forces Rand to use it ie. capture by the Domination Band shouldn't happen, the pattern wouldn't allow it. Semirhage couldn't ambush Rand disguised as Tuon because she is a thread in the pattern. But then along comes Shaidar Haran. I think that what he is, is a mydraal that has been altered at Shayol Ghol (where the impossible is possible eg. Mindtraps) to carry a portion of the DO. This would mean that SH is not subjected to the will of the pattern as he is not a part of it. He also can only affect it minimally as his majority is still outside the pattern. He can only affect that which has been touched by the DO ie. Darkfriends. But with his interference these threads can throw the whole pattern out of balance, ie. Elza being freed to free Semi so that Rand can be subjected to the Domination Band. Now the pattern rights itself but this can only happen in one way, Rand obtains his freedom with the TP.
Now we get to the consequence of this use of the TP. I think that the consequence that the DO was after was not so much the corruption of Rand through his use of the TP (though it is probably a bonus) but rather the effect on his thread and the pattern in general. By touching the TP Rand is now no longer protected by the pattern, his thread is fully entwined with the outside influence of the DO, and considering the absolute importance of Rand's thread the rest of the pattern is also jeopardized. By touching the TP Rand has thrown the whole pattern into chaos and now the DO's servants can alter things to a much greater extent in his favour. Servants such as Shaidar and Moridin will be even more deadly as since they have been touched by the DO to a greater extent they will be even more free to do as they wish and not as the pattern wills.

I think that about sums my theory up. I've been a long time lurker on Theoryland but it is possible that this has already been thought of and if so, sorry.
Feel free to tear this apart.

padfoot89
01-10-2011, 12:12 PM
Interesting theory but we see a major major interference by the Pattern when he was on Dragonmount. The Dark side was so close to winning there. We see cases where the Pattern has come to the rescue of the heroes after Rand used the TP.

I believe the TP touching was not something the DO intended but something that happened due to his link with Moridin. It's likely that by the end, the Rand-Moridin link will serve some important purpose.

The link seems to be one of those Pattern designed things to help Rand.

Juan
01-10-2011, 02:27 PM
@logannagol
First of all welcome! Good to see you joined!

Very interesting thoughts.

However, the DO is outside of the pattern. Yet you say Rand was able to access the True Power (which remember is the DO's essence) because the Pattern let Rand do it to right itself. That's impossible. If the DO is outside the pattern, the pattern has no control over the DO or his source and therefore could not just give Rand access the means to the TP. Impossible.

As to the chaos this has caused.. I'm not so sure.. After Rand's epiphany at Dragonmount, the world seems MUCH more stable now.

@padfoot89
The idea that Rand gained access to the TP because of his link with Moridin is very interesting.. I've thought about it, but I believe that the DO wanted Rand to use the TP. We've been told that the TP is very addictive and in the state of mind Rand was in at the moment, he would've been very vulnerable to succumb to the addictiveness.

I think the DO gave access to Rand intentionally. He made a powerful Forsaken trap Rand in a way he knows is impossible to break out of or escape of. By giving him access to the TP he was showing Rand he was probably hoping its lure and addictiveness would lure Rand to the Shadow. But more importantly, I think it was meant to show him, "look, you're One Power can't break you out of this. It's IMPOSSIBLE. But my True Power can. Imagine all of the things you can do with the TP." He was tempting Rand with the TP much like Palpatine was tempting Anakin with the Dark Side of the Force. But the DO took a gamble and was willing to sacrifice Semirhage, but he failed, because Rand had his awesome epiphany.

padfoot89
01-10-2011, 03:00 PM
The reason that I'm not sure that DO intended Rand to use the True Power is because it appeared so late.

I'm not sure but I believe RJ said that using TP is a matter of wanting it and the DO allowing it. Rand did not want access to it. I suppose you could argue that under so much stress, he subconsciously asked for it.

The way I saw that scene, Moridin seized the True Power because he was probably going through pain because of the link and Rand snatched it from him.

Juan
01-10-2011, 03:15 PM
The way I saw it. The TP didn't come late. It came just at the right time. In a time where Rand was desperate, looking for a way out, and the TP was that way. He was at the peak of his darkness. It was the perfect time, any earlier, and the TP would've had even less chance of enticing Rand to go over to the Shadow more consciously.

Like I said. It was perfect because like Anakin, his intentions weren't initially evil, he initially just wanted to learn the dark side of the force so he could prevent his wife from dying. However, later, he switched over to the Dark side for real. I think the DO was trying to do this as well with the difference that instead of promising the TP as death-preventing, he promised it as a way of escape and achieving otherwise impossible things. Such as breaking from the band of dominion.

padfoot89
01-10-2011, 03:37 PM
Doesn't that imply that the DO has very accurate knowledge of what Rand is feeling ?
I'm not sure DO knew what Rand was feeling so that he could show the carrot at the exact right time.
Unless Moridin was acting like some kind of relay.

GonzoTheGreat
01-10-2011, 04:23 PM
Rand suggested during his meeting with the Borderlanders that he'd had the option of using the TP for quite a while already. If true, then it did not require very specific information on the side of the DO to get the timing right; that last would have been left up to Rand himself.

Enigma
01-10-2011, 04:24 PM
Nice theory logannagol. Clearly the DO is not part of the pattern because if he was he would not be the threat he is. This is reinforced by the recent viewings Min had and Aviendha's visions of the world after the Last Battle. All these are what the Pattern wants but if the DO gets his way there will be no more pattern.

To sum it up the Pattern can't affect the DO but it seems to have some ability to influence events/people to counteract the effects of the DO if not the DO himself. By way of evidence think of the many events that had to happen for Shadar Logoth to come about, and its main reason for existing seems to have been to help Rand cleanse the Taint.

I am not sure if Rand is now outside the protection of the pattern. He most certainly allowed the DO to get his hooks into him and it may have contributed to his ever darkening mood but when Rand marched into Tar Valon he was confident that the Aes Sedia could not hold him.

Now its possible that Rand is some super channeler after his merging with LTT but if so thats a bit of a cop out. Rand should be more skilled, more practiced and experienced but a human can only channell so much no matter how skilled and powerful they are.

If that is the case Rand clearly expected that he could use his influence on the Pattern/the Pattern's influence on him to overcome any shield the AS put on him.

Likewise we have seen that Rand's presence now affects the Pattern to the extent that its rebouted in a local area around him and freed from the DO's touch. Rotting food being made whole, apples growing on trees etc. That seems to suggest that Rand and the Pattern are still pretty tight.

It would have been great if we had seen Rand's though process in the last book, it might have answeered a lot of questions but I recall BS saying that he deliberatly did not want to show a lot of what was going on in Rand's head - presumably to keep a few suprises for the last book

Lohikaarme
01-10-2011, 04:36 PM
Nice theory. It might not be true, but would explain why the Shadow hasn't managed to stop Rand. However I think the Shadow didn't off Rand in the beginning is that he's needed for the victory of either side.
What effect do you think Rands Buddha -moment has on this?

logannagol
01-10-2011, 04:49 PM
About it being the pattern that allowed Rand to touch the TP:
Sorry that my original post was a bit garbled on this. What I meant was that the pattern would not ever allow the situation to arise where Rand must touch the TP. Now the DO would love Rand to touch the TP but due to the pattern not allowing this what so ever there is no way normally that Rand would touch the TP (sorry if I'm repeating myself). But with SH's interference (who is not subject to the pattern's will but at the same time can only affect those touched by the DO) a situation arises that shouldn't be, the pattern has momentarily lost control and the DO can step in and force Rand to use the TP.
Now my point on the affects on the pattern due to this use was a bit exaggerated. What I meant to say was that Rand's thread is now vulnerable. The pattern can still operate with him, but there is that opening for the DO: at the right moment, at the right place eg. Shayol Ghol, and with the right pressure eg. an increasingly changed Moridin, the pattern may be unable to intervene. Rand would be completely on his own.
This is probably also why the DO demands that Rand remain alive: so long as Rand lives the pattern is centred on him, so if the wrong thing can happen at the right moment, the whole pattern can become irrevocably damaged when the DO strikes as the Rand is left unprotected by the pattern.
Hopefully that makes more sense and clears some of the theory's flaws up a bit.

logannagol
01-10-2011, 04:54 PM
@Lohikaarme:
I think the Rand Buddha moment is the Rand partially through his own strength of character and with the pattern's assistance righting things. What I mean to say is that the pattern is still in control mostly and with Rand's improved mentality things are looking up, but there is now a crucial weakness and flaw in the weave, and there is now an opening for the DO to strike under the right conditions.
(Sorry bout the double post)

Juan
01-10-2011, 05:03 PM
Why should it be impossible for Rand to touch the TP?

Ta'veren kinda balance things for the pattern.

So essentially what you're saying is that SH is kinda an anti-ta'veren who creates unbalance in the pattern.

So then we come to Rand who is a ta'veren. In fact, the most powerful ta'veren ever as far as we know. So I would think that assuming SH's had the ability to unbalance the pattern and all that, Rand's super ta'vernness would definitely not be impacted by SH's presence or whatever. Meaning, Rand has the ability to touch the TP. And it's not impossible as you believe. As Gonzo pointed out, Rand claimed to have the ability for some time, although he hadn't actually done it then. How would that be considering SH was not by Rand all the time?

logannagol
01-10-2011, 05:19 PM
@Juan:
What makes me think that it should be impossible for Rand to touch the TP is that:
1. The pattern's back up in the form of the borderlanders is pretty useless if Rand is allowed to touch the TP ie. the TP touching isn't meant to happen.
2. Rand touching the TP is pretty much opposed to any goal of the pattern. Remember that it is stated that Ta'veren are even more tightly controlled by the pattern (though they still have the greatest influence) and hence Rand would not really be given the option to touch the TP by the pattern.
On the point of SH being a sort of anti-Ta'veren, I didn't quite mean it like that. What I meant was that since he is not subjected to the pattern's will he can do what he wishes (though this is limited to influencing darkfriends). His freeing of Elza and by consequence Semirhage temporarily takes the situation out of the patterns control, allowing that brief point where the pattern cannot prevent Rand's touching of the TP. By the time Rand has freed himself the pattern will have regained control. So while SH is outside the patterns influence, he is not an anti-Ta'veren, more like the butterfly in chaos theory although in his situation the hurricane will soon be put down by the pattern.

GonzoTheGreat
01-10-2011, 06:10 PM
What you should take into account is that the DO is almost certainly stronger than the Pattern. It is only because he's locked up in a special way that he can't use his power. But when there are cracks in his prison (as is the case while Rand is running around) the DO can do some things, and the Pattern can't prevent that.

Zombie Sammael
01-13-2011, 11:22 AM
Perhaps the TP is not necessarily "The Dark One's power" as much as it is "a power controlled by the Dark One". It may be a destructive force involved in the creation of the pattern\wheel of time as much as the OP is a creative force, and this would explain Rand's ability to wield it.

morat'corlm
01-13-2011, 08:34 PM
Matt: Ok, so, what is then the nature of the Dark Oneís relationship with the True Power? In other words...is he the Power or it is separate like the One Power?
Brandon: When people bored into his prison they were searching for a new source of power, they found him. Alright? Now, that leaves a strong implication that the True Power is the essence of the Dark One. The True Power when it is used rips apart the Pattern to rebuild it as it desires. The True Power is very destructive to the Pattern. It leaves scars on the Pattern. Robert Jordan said in an interview or maybe it was actually in the books, when you make a gateway with the True Power you are actually ripping a hole in the Pattern and going somewhere else. When you are using the True Power that is what you are doing, it is contrary to the Pattern. That is not a direct answer to your question but I think there are enough implications in there that certain things can be discussed.
[I realize now, after listening to Brandonís answer that I was making an assumption about the One Power too, that it is separate from the Creator because of what we have been given in the books and the BWB, but I should have asked if instead the One Power is the essence of the Creator...]

The Immortal One
01-13-2011, 09:22 PM
Perhaps the TP is not necessarily "The Dark One's power" as much as it is "a power controlled by the Dark One". It may be a destructive force involved in the creation of the pattern\wheel of time as much as the OP is a creative force, and this would explain Rand's ability to wield it.

That's interesting. Do you mean like Saidin and Saidar work together and against each other to turn the Wheel of Time; so might the One Power and the True Power work together and against each other?

Zombie Sammael
01-14-2011, 07:35 AM
What morat'corlm posted about Brandon's answer on what the True Power is either destroys my theory above or makes it far more interesting, as it would mean that the DO, far from being truly evil and alien, is actually something which in and of itself is necessary for the pattern. Since the DO is freed every seven ages for an age, that might well be possible. "Have to clear the rubble before you can rebuild."

Juan
01-14-2011, 11:38 AM
I don't think the DO is necessary for the Pattern. Yes, RJ created a world of balance, but there is a reason the DO is constantly referred to as being OUTSIDE the Pattern.

The balance comes from the evil people have in themselves, of which the implication is that this is inherent even if the DO is not present. For example, during the Age of Legends, the DO was behind his little prison with no ability to touch the world, yet people still often did evil things. When the DO was able to touch the world, he magnified many evils in the world, thus unbalancing the world.

Further evidence for this would be the distinction between the evil of man, remember Shadar Logoth and its story, and the actual evils associated with the DO.

Note, that I personally don't like the idea of balance in terms of good and evil, although that's another discussion. However, in RJ's world this seems to be the way he created it.