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Isabel
01-10-2011, 12:15 PM
I saw a twitter by Tam about how frustrated he is about it ;)
I also don't see it yet, or believe it yet for myself. However, team Jordan says Graendal killed him, so unfortunately it is so.

I found an old long theory of mine and sodas, regarding why Graendal couldn't have done it. There are still a few things in it that don't make sense.


==

Greandal didn’t kill Asmodean- By Sodas and Isabel

I Graendal would be in Illian or waiting on Moghedien

Moggy tells Nynaeve of the trap in Illian

Quote:
________________________________________
TITLE: the Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 54 - To Caemlyn

“Do you know they are drawing Rand al’Thor to attack Sammael? But when he does, he will find the others as well, waiting to trap him between them. At least, he will find Graendal and Rahvin. I think Lanfear plays another game, one the others know nothing about.”
________________________________________

So according to Moggy, Graendal and Rahvin are waiting in Illian for Rand. The plan was for Rand to go to Illian.
Nynaeve asked specificly something that the other forsaken don’t know. Moggy then tells Nynaeve about Ravhins own game. Ravhin even considered the possibility Rand was going after him.

Quote:
________________________________________
TITLE: the Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 54- To Caemlyn

"Now if you know of some threat to Rand, something ahead of Sammael and the others, you tell me. Now!"
Words spilled from Moghedien's mouth, and her tongue flickered out to wet her lips continually. "Al'Thor means to go after Rahvin today. This morning. Because he thinks Rahvin killed Morgase. I don't know whether he did or not, but al'Thor belives it. But Rahvin never trusted Lanfear. He never trusted any of them. Why should he? He thought it all might be some trap set for him, so he has laid a trap of his own. He has set Wards through Caemlyn so if a man channels a spark he will know. Al'thor will walk right into it. He almost certainly already has. I think he meant to leave Cairhien right after sunrise. I had no part of it. It was none of it my doing. I-"
________________________________________


If Moggy is up to date, then Sammael and Graendal don't know Rand was going to attack Rahvin. Plus we hear from super spy that Rahvin planned things on it own. Without involving any of the other forsaken.

Than concerning the so called Greandal-Moghedien conspiracy:

Lord of Chaos CH: Prologue - The First Message
"Rahvin is dead, Great Lord. Yesterday." There was pain. Euphoria too strong became pain quickly. His arms and legs twitched. He was sweating, now. "Lanfear has vanished without a trace, just as Asmodean did. And Graendal says Moghedien failed to meet her as they had agreed. Also yesterday, Great Lord. I do not believe in coincidence."
________________________________________

Moghedien and Graendal were going to meet up the day when Moghedien was captured and Asmodean was killed.
I would say that makes her less likely to have killed Asmodean. She was going to meet Moghedien, so if she was going to find someone, she would have searched for Moghedien.
Perhaps Moghedien was going to tell Graendal were Rand was going, but that would have been during that meeting. Moghedien just found out what Rand’s plan was. Rand plans was at most 12 hours old.
So it’s unlikely Graendal knew from Moghedien. Plus Moghedien was specifically asked something that the other forsaken don’t know, after Moghedien heard that Nynaeve already knew about the plot to lure Rand to Sammael.
Graendal also didn’t have any reason to go to Caemlyn to protect Ravhin. From the information we have from Moghedien. Ravhin had a plan of his own and didn’t trust any of the other forsaken.

From information from FoH we also know this:
TITLE: Fires of Heaven CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Sparks Fall It was true, what she said of them. Rahvin himself preferred diplomacy and manipulation to open conflict, though he would not shy from it if needed. Sammael's way had always been armies and conquest; he would not go near Lews Therin, even reborn as a shepherd, until he was sure of victory. Graendal, too, followed conquest, though her methods did not involve soldiers; for all her concern with her toys, she took one solid step at a time. Openly to be sure, as the Chosen reckoned such things, but never stretching too far at any step.

Greandal is carefull. She takes one step at a time. Why would she take the risk going into Ravhins territory if it was likely that Ravhin was dead or under heavy attack?
So that’s unlikely.

II Why Graendal knows Asmodean is dead.

Greandal was going to contact Moghedien and from book 6 we know she also contacted Demandred. Seems like Graendal tried to contact Moggy and Demandred to find out what was going on in either Cairhien or Caemlyn. She should have been either waiting for Moggy or be in Illian when Asmodean got killed.

Thus, as long as Graendal told Demandred what she knew, what he told the DO must mirror what Graendal knew


Quote:
________________________________________
TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Message

"Rahvin is dead, Great Lord. Yesterday." There was pain. Euphoria too strong became pain quickly. His arms and legs twitched. He was sweating, now. "Lanfear has vanished without a trace, just as Asmodean did. And Graendal says Moghedien failed to meet her as they had agreed. Also yesterday, Great Lord. I do not believei n coincidence."
________________________________________

Demandred is then told precisely what was going on.

Quote:
________________________________________
TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Message

THE CHOSEN DWINDLE, DEMANDRED. THE WEAK FALL AWAY. WHO BETRAYS ME SHALL DIE THE FINAL DEATH. ASMODEAN, TWISTED BY HIS WEAKNESS. RAHVIN DEAD IN HIS PRIDE. HE SERVERED WELL, YET EVEN I CANNOT SAVE HIM FROM BALEFIRE. EVEN I CANNOT STEP OUTSIDE OF TIME. DONE BY MY ANCIENT ENEMY, THE ONE CALLED DRAGON. WOULD YOU UNLEASH THE BALEFIRE IN MY SERVICE DEMANDRED?
________________________________________


After that Demandred was told this and he told the other forsaken, Graendal expresses the idea that Rand killed Asmodean 4 times.

Quote:
________________________________________
TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 6 - Threads Woven of Shadow

"Have you learned where al'Thor is hiding Asmodean? Or
anything of Lanfear's whereabouts? Or Moghedien's?" Of course, Moghedien always hid herself; the Spider was forever popping up just when you were sure she was finally dead.

"You know as much as I do. Myself, I think Lews Therin killed them. Oh, don't grimace at me. Al'thor, sicne you insist." The thought did not seem to disturb her, but then, she would never find herself in open conflict with al'Thor. That had never been her way. If al'Thor ever discovered her, she simply would abandon everything and re-establish herself elsewhere- or else surrender before he could strike a blow, then begin convincing him that she was indispensable. "There are rumors out of Cairhien about Lanfear dying at Lews Therin's hands the same day he killed Rahvin."
________________________________________

Notice rumors out of Cairhien, not the DO told her.

Quote:
________________________________________
TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 6 - Threads Woven of Shadow

"And why would he kill Asmodean? I would if I could find him, but he has gone over to al'Thor. He's teaching him!"
"Always some excuse for your failures," she whisperered into her punch, again too softly for him to have heard without saidin. In a louder voice, she said "Choose your own explanations, if you wish. You may even be right. All i know is that Lews Therin seems to be removing us from the game one by one."
________________________________________

Two times.


Quote:
________________________________________
TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 6 - Threads Woven of Shadow
Waving ringed fingers in time to a snatch of music from below, Graendal spoke absently, as though her real attention was on the tune. "So many of us have died confronting him. Aginor and Balthamel. Ishamael, Be'lal and rahvin. And Lanfear and Asmodean, whatever you believe. Possibly Moghedien; she might be creeping about in the shadows waiting until the rest of us have fallen - she's foolish enough.
________________________________________


Three.

Quote:
________________________________________
TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: Ch. 23 - To Understand a Message

"Which means," he contiued, "that on the Day of Return, I will very likely be the only one remaining to face a'Thor"
"I doubt he will manage to kill all of us," she said acidly, but acid churned in her stomach, as well. Too many of the Chosen had died. Sammael had found a way to stand aside until the last; it was the only explanation.
"You think not? Not even if he learns where you all are?" That smile deepened. " I am sure I know what Demandred is scheming, but where is he hiding? Where is Semirhage? Mesaana? What about Asmodean and Lanfear? Moghedien?"
Those cold fingers returned, imprinting themselves on her skull. He would not lounge there and talk this way - he would not dare suggest what he was suggesting - unless ... "Asmodean and Lanfear are dead, and I am sure Moghedien must be, too." She was surprised to hear her own voice, hoarse and unsteady. Wine did not seem to dampen her dry throat.
"and the others?" It was just a question; his voice was not in the slightest insistent. It sent a shiver through her.
"I've told you what I know, Sammael."
________________________________________


So 4 times Graendal repeats that she knows that Asmodean is dead by Rand's hands.

Quote:
________________________________________
TITLE : Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: Ch 23 - To Understand a Message

A tightness in her chest looseed when he finally nodded. "You will find the others for me." It was not a question. "All of them, Graendal. If you want me to believe anyone dead, show me a corpse."
She very much wished she dared turn him into a corpse. Her gown rippled through violent shades of red, echoing the anger and fear and shame that rippled through her uncontrollably. Very well, let him think her cowed for the moment. If he fed Mesaana to al'Thor, if he fed them all to al'Thor, so be it, so long as that kept al'Thor from her own throat. "I will try."
"Do more than try Graendal. More than try."
________________________________________


Despite all Sammael's threats, Graendal still promises to find Asmodean's corpse. She felt anger, fear and shame in Sammael's request, but never a touch of irony for killing Asmodean.

If Graendal did tell Demandred all that she knew, then why does her story change? It is best explained as information passed to her from the DO. Therefore, she didn't kill Asmodean.


III. What about Illian?

Lastly, to clear up confusion on Graendal returning to Caemlyn to "clear up connections to Rahvin."

Nynaeve already knew about Graendal's plotting together.

Quote:
________________________________________
TITLE: the Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 54 - To Caemlyn

"Before you consider anything ... drastic," Moghedien said, "remember that i know much that would be useful to you. I have observed the other Chosen, peeked into their schemes. Is that not worth something?"
"Tell me, and I will consider whether it's worth anything." Nynaeve said. What could she do with the woman?
"Lanfear, Graendal, Rahvin and Sammael are plotting together."
Nynaeve gave the leash a short tug, staggering her. "I know that. Tell me something new." The woman was captive here, but the a'dam only existed so long as they were in Tel'aran'rhiod.
________________________________________


If Nynaeve knows, wouldn't Rand know? There was no reason for Graendal to cover up anything in Caemlyn from the Light.

Graendal was involved in Illian to remove evidence of her involvement with Sammael, when it was specifically inhibited


Quote:
________________________________________
TITLE: Path of Daggers
CHAPTER: 12 - New Alliances

Graendal's hand went to the only ring on the table that was not a signet, a plain golden band too small for any but her little finger. It had been a pleasant surprise to find an angreal attuned to women among Sammael's possessions. A pleasant surprise to have time to find much of anything useful with al'Thor and those puppies who called themselves Asha'man constantly in and out of Sammael's chambers in the Great Hall of the Council. They had stripped it bare of what she had not taken. Dangerous puppies, all of them, especially al'Thor. And she had not wanted to risk anyone being able to draw a line from Sammael to her. Yes, she must increase the pace of her own plans, and distance herself from Sammael's disaster.
________________________________________


Since the prohibition wasn't in effect during tFoH, there was no need to remove evidence of a connection from the Dark.

Therefore, she had nothing to hide during tFoH from either the Light or Dark concerning her involvement with Rahvin.

IV. A few other questions regarding Greandal

After the Fight with Ravhin, Rand's forces were still defeating the Shadowspawn, when Asmodean wandered off and got killed. That is a limited timeframe, with control of Caemlyn just under Rand's control, and Wise Ones milling about.

So even if Moggy is wrong about Graendal being in Illian, Graendal would have been an intruder during Rahvin's occupation, and the same for when Rand took over. Making it near impossible for her to have slipped in without detection.

Another thing that bothers me: Asmodean recognized his killer.
Why would Graendal walk around there undisguised?? With her special dress she is something you notice. Plus she wouldn’t take any risk with Rand about.

Other questions: If she went there to kill Asmodean. How did she find him??? He just wandered into a room. How could she have gotten into that room before him if she was hunting him. If she was hunting him she could have killed him in the back.

Also why would she wait in Caemlyn? Skimming takes longer, but it’s save. What if Rand still walked around trying to find other forsaken or killing Trollocs?


VI. To Conclude

All the Forsaken were looking towards Cairhien to figure out what was Rand going to do when Rand attacked Rahvin. Sammael and Graendal would have still assumed Rand was in Cairhien. So, Graendal wasn't in position to know Rand was in Caemlyn, and she had to wait for for Moghedien to meet her, all within the time span of Asmodean's death. Plus, Moggy figured Graendal to be waiting for Rand's attack in Illian. All these patterns are stacked against her. Not to mention the timeline goes against her being in Caemlyn, making it near impossible for her to get there amongst all the Wise One's, Aviendha and Rand, find Asmodean, and kill him. Also, mentally, her opinion that Rand killed Asmodean repeated 4 times is convincing. Her knowledge changed from what she told Demandred to what she told Sammael, and that suggests she learned of Asmodean's death from the D.O, not from killing him.

Thus, she has a solid alibi for being in Illian or waiting to meet Moggy. But she has no motive nor opportunity to be in Caemlyn at the moment of Asmodean's death, and she doesn't express any first hand knowledge of Asmodean's demise even when threatened by Sammael.
Plus if she was in Caemlyn she would have been in disguise and not walking around looking like Graendal.

Envelope
01-10-2011, 12:53 PM
Yeah i thought the revelation of Asmodeon's killer was a huge let down. After waiting so long to know "who done it", it just gets mentioned in passing.

That and Demandred's identity have been the two things i've been itching to know for years. Hopefully the latter isn't so low key.

Juan
01-10-2011, 01:39 PM
As to the first post. All I'm going to say without countering everything is that with Travelling, Graendal could've been on Seanchan. And Traveled to Caemlyn in a matter of seconds. She could've been in Illian, could've been wherever. Gone in to defend Rahvin, saw that it wasn't working out. And just killed Asmodean in the passing. Definitely doable.

As to Demandred's identiy I remember RJ saying something to the effect of, "Demandred has only been shown as himself." So that could mean he's impersonating someone we haven't seen. But I doubt that in the last book we'll be told look he was impersonating this new random king of the Isle of Madmen whom we've never even heard of. That's why I just think he'll just have been himself. I don't think there will a huge revelation of someone he's been impersonating or his identity. Demandred is Demandred. I think the big revelation is going to be what he's been up to, where, and for how long.

Belazamon
01-10-2011, 02:56 PM
So according to Moggy, Graendal and Rahvin are waiting in Illian for Rand. The plan was for Rand to go to Illian.
How long do you figure they were willing to just sit on their thumbs in Illian? No matter how much time you grant them, there's gotta come a point at which someone says "what the hell, Rahvin should've been here by now. Not to mention al'Thor."

If Moggy is up to date, then Sammael and Graendal don't know Rand was going to attack Rahvin. Plus we hear from super spy that Rahvin planned things on it own. Without involving any of the other forsaken.
Irrelevant. If Rahvin agreed to meet up with his alliance members in Illian, and then never showed up in Illian, then why would anyone be surprised that someone went looking for him even if they didn't know what had happened already?

Moghedien and Graendal were going to meet up the day when Moghedien was captured and Asmodean was killed.
As your quote clearly shows, this is merely a "Graendal says" situation. Unfortunately, knowing that Graendal actually killed Asmodean, she would be expected to lie about things like that in order to cover her ass.

Graendal also didnít have any reason to go to Caemlyn to protect Ravhin. From the information we have from Moghedien. Ravhin had a plan of his own and didnít trust any of the other forsaken.
Whoever said she went to Caemlyn to "protect Rahvin?" :D

Greandal is carefull. She takes one step at a time. Why would she take the risk going into Ravhins territory if it was likely that Ravhin was dead or under heavy attack?
So thatís unlikely.
As has been pointed out countless times, Graendal had no compunction against going into Illian to poke around after Sammael's death, even with Asha'man openly wandering the halls. There's been speculation, but there's no evidence that Graendal was in Caemlyn during the actual battle itself.

Thus, as long as Graendal told Demandred what she knew, what he told the DO must mirror what Graendal knew
Bad assumption. Graendal didn't tell Demandred what she knew - she lied.

After that Demandred was told this and he told the other forsaken, Graendal expresses the idea that Rand killed Asmodean 4 times.

So 4 times Graendal repeats that she knows that Asmodean is dead by Rand's hands.
Laying aside the obvious point that we know for a fact that Rand didn't kill Asmodean... are you familiar with the phrase "the lady doth protest too much?"

Despite all Sammael's threats, Graendal still promises to find Asmodean's corpse.
You're reading that passage very differently from the way I read it. Unfortunately, that just leads to semantic arguments, so let's just say I don't agree that Graendal made any such promise.

If Graendal did tell Demandred all that she knew, then why does her story change?
Because that's what happens when you lie. :)

Lastly, to clear up confusion on Graendal returning to Caemlyn to "clear up connections to Rahvin."
Who says that's what she was doing? Graendal is a scavenger. We saw it after Sammael's death in Illian - she wasn't just there to hide her connections, she was also there to see what she could pick up. The Chosen usually have cool stuff lying around.

So even if Moggy is wrong about Graendal being in Illian, Graendal would have been an intruder during Rahvin's occupation, and the same for when Rand took over. Making it near impossible for her to have slipped in without detection.
And yet she managed it in Illian with no problem. Nobody knows she was ever there to this day.

Another thing that bothers me: Asmodean recognized his killer.
Why would Graendal walk around there undisguised?? With her special dress she is something you notice. Plus she wouldnít take any risk with Rand about.
Other than more subtle clothing, why would she feel the need to disguise her features? At that point, how many people knew that Rand would instantly recognize any of the Chosen he saw? The only one she could've met that would have known her true face was (conveniently) the one who wound up dead.

Other questions: If she went there to kill Asmodean. How did she find him??? He just wandered into a room. How could she have gotten into that room before him if she was hunting him. If she was hunting him she could have killed him in the back.
I never really understood why everyone assumed she was there specifically to kill Asmodean, rather than it being a chance encounter.

Thus, she has a solid alibi for being in Illian or waiting to meet Moggy. But she has no motive nor opportunity to be in Caemlyn at the moment of Asmodean's death, and she doesn't express any first hand knowledge of Asmodean's demise even when threatened by Sammael.
Plus if she was in Caemlyn she would have been in disguise and not walking around looking like Graendal.
None of these points are actually valid, for reasons I've pointed out above. Have a fantastic day. :)

Davian93
01-10-2011, 03:00 PM
I cant believe people are still arguing this after it was 100% revealed in the book.

Belazamon
01-10-2011, 03:01 PM
I cant believe people are still arguing this after it was 100% revealed in the book.
Welcome to Theoryland! :)

Isabel
01-10-2011, 03:23 PM
remind me to get back to you tomorrow. off to bed now.

Enigma
01-10-2011, 03:42 PM
One thing to remember about the forsaken is that they don't trust each other and for good reason. The Guide and later interviews given by RJ made it clear that in the War of Power the top forsaken suffered as many casualties from their own side as from LTT and the Light.

Now if that is the environment that someone spent the last few active years of their lives I don't think its unreasonable for Granedal not to want to hang around waiting for too long in one place.

For all she knew this migth be a trap aimed at her or at Rahvin or Sammael or even at Lanfear. Either way the longer she stays in one spot the bigger the potential target she is painting on her back.

Taking that into account Graendal who has more Dark Friend contacts that most forsaken to feed her info knows that events are hapening. Now the likes of Moggy not knowing what is going on except the plan is falling apart would probably Travel to the other side of the world for a week to let the dust settle and then she can see who did what.

Granedal on the other hand is made of braver stuff. She is not afraid to take risks though she is not reckless either. So Lanfear as far as she is concerned has gone AWOL. Sammael is still sitting in Illian waiting for Rand to show up but Rahvin is also a no show. Lafear not having a permenant base is kind of hard to track down but I could easily see Grendal deciding to go visit Rahvin but under the Rader so she is not just going to travel to his throne room. She slips into the palace but keeps her head down to see what is going on.

Whether she was there for Rand's big show down with Rahvin is questionable. Perhaps she was and decided to take no part. Perhaps she showed up when the fun was over and is getting the lay of the land while keeping our of Rand's way.

Then in walks Asmodean, the traitor who as far as she knows is not shielded and loyal to Rand. He may not be the bad ass Demandred is or even as strong as her but he is strong enough to be a threat and all he had to do is keep her busy long enough for Rand to feel the channeling and show up then she will have a second rate forsaken and a very very dangerous Dragon on her hands.

So she goes for the one shot one kill plan. Being in the middle of enemy territory I would submit that Graendal was primed to strike and probably had some weaves ready just in case. Asmoean on the other hand is off guard, he thinks he is safe for the moment and that added to him being shielded makes him toast.

To finalise we have a pov from Graendal herself that shows that she is not afraid to be in places close to Rand and his followers if she has good enough reason. She went to Illian after Rand took over and Sammael died.

Belazamon
01-10-2011, 03:51 PM
remind me to get back to you tomorrow. off to bed now.
Don't forget to get back to me tomorrow!

Isabel
01-10-2011, 11:16 PM
aggggh, just spend a freaking 15 minutes writing an answer in reply, and than i make an error and it's all gone:(

Sorry i will answer tonight or tomorrow with all my questions and things i still dont' see or find unlikely.

Sodas
01-10-2011, 11:48 PM
Isabel,

Graendal may have "killed" Asmodean in the sense that she also killed Arangar and Mesaana. Both where not killed directly by Graendal. Graendal just so happened to have been plotting with the other four about Rand and everyone with him, including Asmodean.

If anything, TOM confirms that Graendal "killed" Asmodean, but she didn't actually kill him.

I think it's so easy to jump to conclusions here that it is all a charade. I feel the reason so many people are upset that the answer was so short is a set up for the real answer, maybe in AMOL.

Terez
01-11-2011, 01:54 AM
Brandon confirmed on tour that Graendal killed him personally. He says that RJ didn't leave any other info besides that - not even the method. Brandon thinks balefire is likely, but RJ didn't say explicitly.

Enigma
01-11-2011, 09:00 AM
I could be wrong here but it was my understanding that when he first wrote the Asmodean is killed scene RJ did not consider who killed him or how or why a big deal and was surprised by the fan's obsession with the quesion. That might explain why there is not a lot of detail. RJ seemed to think that a lot of his darkfriend characters who were being killed off not to really deserve the grand send off and was happy for them to have a barely make the newspaper sort of death unless Rand was killing them personally.

Sodas I'm not sure I agree with your idea that Graendal arranged or plotted Asmodean's death. My take on the whole thing was that Moridin lumps 'you killed x' with 'you arranged the death of x' in as one either way you are the reason x is dead.

Who is Graendal going to arrange to kill Asmodean? As far as the world knew he was at full strenght and staying very close to Rand so that's a hard nut to crack for any non forsaken. Its not impossible but how could she possibly set up the plan to bump him off when Rand decided to go after Rahvin with little enough notice, Asmodean decided to go with him with even less notice, no one could predict how the fight with Rahvin would go down and Asmodean would happen to wander off exactly in the direction he did exactly at the time he did.

If she did plan that it must have given her a real migrane thinking it all out.

alleluia_cone
01-11-2011, 11:45 AM
Brandon confirmed on tour that Graendal killed him (Asmodean) personally.

I'm all for having this posted in size 48 bolded font on every single page on this forum.

Terez
01-11-2011, 12:03 PM
It won't help; some people just don't read too good.

Seeker
01-11-2011, 04:01 PM
Oh, poor Isa, you still haven't figured out how it works. Let me explain it to you. When RJ passed on and left us without his awesomeness, he forgot to tell BS and Harriet who the killer was.

So Brandon Sanderson threw a dart at pictures of the characters and it happened to land on Graendel.

Sodas
01-11-2011, 04:36 PM
I'm sorry if I don't buy the story from Brandon.

If you aren't aware, that theory, http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4975913/1/Sherlock_Holmes_Examines_the_Death_of_Asmodean, wasn't posted until 04-07-09, last year.

And while the author says in his introduction, "I wrote this for fun many years ago," he doesn't say he wrote it in a letter to RJ. He says he had to "dust it off" to post it online. So how does a theory not posted until last year supposedly get to RJ to leave behind on top of the pile of notes on the end of the series? Makes no sense considering Jordan pasted away before the theory was posted online.

Anyway, moving on ...

Who is Graendal going to arrange to kill Asmodean?

Arrange may be a tad strong. But she wanted him dead, as did Sammael, who expressed it openly in our view of their meetings. The plan was to trap Rand, kill his followers, etc. Asmodean was more like collateral of that, even if he was Chosen as well. Just like Mesaana was collateral of Graendal's plots reguarding the Dreamspike, and Aran'gar was collateral of her plot to escape Rand in Arad Doman.

David Selig
01-11-2011, 05:08 PM
If you aren't aware, that theory, http://www.fanfiction.net/s/4975913/...th_of_Asmodean, wasn't posted until 04-07-09, last year.

And while the author says in his introduction, "I wrote this for fun many years ago," he doesn't say he wrote it in a letter to RJ. He says he had to "dust it off" to post it online. So how does a theory not posted until last year supposedly get to RJ to leave behind on top of the pile of notes on the end of the series? Makes no sense considering Jordan pasted away before the theory was posted online.
I've read this theory online somewhere around 2002-03 IIRC, certainly way before Jordan's death. The archives of the forum I found it are no longer available though, but I am 100% sure it was available online back then.

*edit* I found a confirmation that the theory was known among fandom back in 2001 - See here (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan/browse_frm/thread/af6243a75fdfb269/34e0193a02946500)

Sodas
01-11-2011, 06:42 PM
After reading that, you could be right. Seems much more plausible if someone else mailed it to Jordan back during that time period. Although, what wouldn't make sense is since it disappeared off the internet, how would Jordan comment that it could be found online in 2005?

Terez
01-11-2011, 07:26 PM
He wasn't talking about the dialogue when he said that - he was talking about someone who had drawn charts and laid out all the evidence for the theory. The dialogue was how the message was delivered from RJ to his successor.

GonzoTheGreat
01-12-2011, 05:09 AM
*edit* I found a confirmation that the theory was known among fandom back in 2001 - See here (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan/browse_frm/thread/af6243a75fdfb269/34e0193a02946500)I can top that. I've found evidence that the theory was known in Theoryland. See here (http://theoryland.yuku.com/reply/86809/An-fragile-experiment-on-Asmodean-s-death#reply-86809).

sheikh chilli
01-12-2011, 05:40 AM
C'mon people. anyone with any common sense would have figured that graendal killed asmo long time ago. Jordan practically told us in books 6 and 7 whilst cloaking it in subtle darkness to keep us all confused.

morat'corlm
01-12-2011, 08:37 PM
So which was it then, common-sensical or confusing to all? You can't have it both ways.

I'll note that the Sherlock Holmes analysis didn't even consider Aviendha. Hmph.

Terez
01-12-2011, 10:19 PM
Neither did the FAQ of old. Silly people.

Isabel
01-12-2011, 11:37 PM
Finally had time to go into some of the arguments:)


How long do you figure they were willing to just sit on their thumbs in Illian? No matter how much time you grant them, there's gotta come a point at which someone says "what the hell, Rahvin should've been here by now. Not to mention al'Thor."

In this scenario there are two options:
1. Some of the forsaken were waiting in Illian and would contact the others.
2. They were keeping taps (for example with wards) on Illian and they would travel to Illian when it was needed.
In scenario 1. It would have been very suspicious if Graendal just left Sammael on that time that Rand attacked RAvhin. In this case some remark had to be made my Sammael, or he would have come with her. This didnít happen.
In scenario 2: I imagine that it takes some time and effort to keep an eye on Illian so you could travel there when needed.
Asmodean died probably a couple of hours after Rand attacked Ravhin. So the timeframe between Graendal arriving and killing asmo canít have been more than a couple of hours.
Itís stil unlikely that if she had been keeping taps on Illian that she would have been quick enough to travel to Caeamlyn. If you also take into account that Graendal was supposed to be meeting Moghedien, that also makes the timeframe even smaller.
As your quote clearly shows, this is merely a "Graendal says" situation. Unfortunately, knowing that Graendal actually killed Asmodean, she would be expected to lie about things like that in order to cover her ass.
If Graendal wasnít supposed to meet Moghedien, than how would she know in less than one day that Moghedien has disappeared? Demandred told it to the DO 1 day after Asmo was killed.
As has been pointed out countless times, Graendal had no compunction against going into Illian to poke around after Sammael's death, even with Asha'man openly wandering the halls. There's been speculation, but there's no evidence that Graendal was in Caemlyn during the actual battle itself.
She had a good reason to go to Illian. She had been working with Sammael for a while and knew that he had angreals and there might be clues of her whereabouts.

Other than more subtle clothing, why would she feel the need to disguise her features? At that point, how many people knew that Rand would instantly recognize any of the Chosen he saw? The only one she could've met that would have known her true face was (conveniently) the one who wound up dead.
Graendal is extremely carefull. We see her keeping her Illusion long after Sammael has dropped his.

Graendal maintained the Mask of Mirrors that hid her true form, but Sammael had dropped his, golden-bearded again and just head and shoulders taller than she. He had let the link between them dissolve, too. Chapter 20, patterns within patterns.
Another example of her being carefull.
"Make sure there is human blood on it," she admonished. She doubted anyone in this time could tell human blood from any other, but she had found too many surprises to take an unnecessary chance. Chapter 12, new alliances POD
So to me it doesnít make sense for her to run around not wearing a disguise.

(If Brandon said Graendal killed Asmo, than Graendal did. However, there are still some points that don;'t make sense to me. I think it's valid)

Seeker
01-12-2011, 11:44 PM
Isa

Brandon... dart... picture...

It all makes sense.

Belazamon
01-13-2011, 12:34 AM
In scenario 1. It would have been very suspicious if Graendal just left Sammael on that time that Rand attacked RAvhin. In this case some remark had to be made my Sammael, or he would have come with her. This didnít happen.
Why would they have both gone to Caemlyn? If anything, I'd think Sammael would be suspicious of a trap of some sort if Graendal suggested it. As previously mentioned, though, there's no solid evidence that she was actually there for the Rand/Rahvin throwdown.

Asmodean died probably a couple of hours after Rand attacked Ravhin. So the timeframe between Graendal arriving and killing asmo canít have been more than a couple of hours.
That argument has been made before, but I still don't see any reason to believe that such a short amount of time had passed. Rand's question about the servants coming back certainly implies that some time has passed - why would anyone expect them to come back just a couple of hours after the Palace pretty much exploded?

If Graendal wasnít supposed to meet Moghedien, than how would she know in less than one day that Moghedien has disappeared? Demandred told it to the DO 1 day after Asmo was killed.
All we know is that Demandred said that Graendal said that Moghedien was supposed to meet with her, and didn't show. Maybe there was supposed to be a meeting, maybe there wasn't... but secondhand information from Graendal, who has been established as lying about who killed Asmodean, is not helpful as an alibi.

She had a good reason to go to Illian. She had been working with Sammael for a while and knew that he had angreals and there might be clues of her whereabouts.
She was working with Rahvin too, at least so far as setting a trap for Rand. So where's the conflict here?

So to me it doesnít make sense for her to run around not wearing a disguise.
That's fine. Since we don't know the exact circumstances of the murder, there's still room for her to have dropped her disguise just long enough to show Asmodean who his executioner was. But this is pretty much an unwinnable point either way.

(If Brandon said Graendal killed Asmo, than Graendal did. However, there are still some points that don;'t make sense to me. I think it's valid)
That's quite alright - there's always people who watch a whodunit and say "I don't get it" at the end. :D

alleluia_cone
01-13-2011, 12:04 PM
Honestly, Graendal simply killed Asmodean while doing the same thing she did when she was ransacking Illian after Sammael was killed, except, she was ransacking Caemlyn after Rahvin was killed (incidentally, if you didn't figure out that Graendal was the killer after the scene of her skulking in Illian, I don't know what to tell you). This topic need not be so complicated.

Terez
01-13-2011, 12:33 PM
Yeah, RJ said we should focus on timing and opportunity. So, the 'crime of opportunity' explanation makes a lot of sense.

I was at times tempted to join Isa's Graendal Didn't Do It faction just because she was the most boring of all the suspects (not because it was incredibly unbelievable). But the apathy won out in the end.

alleluia_cone
01-13-2011, 12:49 PM
In the end, the most interesting thing about the mystery is how many readers, for reasons I've never completely understood, always dismissed the very fact that it was a "crime of opportunity."

Above all, this was shocking to me, in that, they basically dismissed the best piece of evidence that was ever given about the identity of the killer while focusing on the worst (i.e, "intuitively obvious"). Once we were given the information that the killer was in Caemlyn for another purpose, and not to kill Asmodean, this basically eliminated many of the popular suspects besides Graendal.

Indeed, if you were a champion of either Moiraine or Lanfear or even Slayer, you were basically required to come up with some elaborate back-story on the reason they were in Caemlyn in the first place, which could in no way include the fact that they were there to kill Asmodean. And once you did that, you would have to look yourself in the mirror and think: "Wow, is this really intuitively obvious?"

Then, of course, you're confronted with scenes of Graendal sneaking around Illian after Sammael was killed, all the while batting down thoughts like: "Well, if Illian, why not Caemlyn?"

Point is: Graendal was always the easy choice, she was always the boring choice, she was always the obvious choice, and she was always the right choice.

Terez
01-13-2011, 12:51 PM
It didn't eliminate Aviendha! :) And I agree, the focus on 'intuitively obvious' was so not helpful because most people just didn't get it.

alleluia_cone
01-13-2011, 01:02 PM
It didn't eliminate Aviendha! :)

Actually, that is true. There really wasn't ever any evidence proving that Aviendha wasn't the killer besides thinking she was not "intuitively obvious" (which was a subjective criteria, in any case). The only problem is that there was never much going for her either whereas the Graendal evidence just piled up as the years went by.

By the way, has Brandon commented extensively on the fan reaction to the revelation? I think it's pretty interesting how the only thing Jordan left was basically "Graendal killed Asmodean." It really speaks to how insignificant the mystery was in the first place which kind of makes the apathetic Asmodean group the victors in the end.

Terez
01-13-2011, 01:16 PM
Actually, that is true. There really wasn't ever any evidence proving that Aviendha wasn't the killer besides thinking she was not "intuitively obvious" (which was a subjective criteria, in any case). The only problem is that there was never much going for her either
There was, but it was all before the murder. There were a few times when Rand and Asmodean said just a little too much in front of her, and we knew that Moiraine had taught the Wise Ones how to eavesdrop. The only argument against Aviendha that was not easily addressed was the matter of "You? No!". It wasn't like it couldn't be explained in reference to Aviendha, but it was always a bit of a stretch.

By the way, has Brandon commented extensively on the fan reaction to the revelation? I think it's pretty interesting how the only thing Jordan left was basically "Graendal killed Asmodean." It really speaks to how insignificant the mystery was in the first place which kind of makes the apathetic Asmodean group the victors in the end.Extensively? No...but there's this:

Brandon on Twitter - 10 January 2011 (http://twitter.com/#%21/BrandonSandrson/status/24521161152921600)
So, Rand on the rigging really must be an after-effect of channeling. But it doesn't HAVE to mean he did it on the night with the boat.
Brandon (http://twitter.com/#%21/BrandonSandrson/status/24521332934840320)
It could have happened in the days between, and... and I'm sounding like @theoryland (http://twitter.com/theoryland), aren't I? You guys are a bad influence on me.
Terez (http://twitter.com/#%21/Terez27/status/24523480137469952)
If you actually hung out @theoryland (http://twitter.com/theoryland) you would never put such an unsupported theory forward for fear of our scorn. ;)
Terez (http://twitter.com/#%21/Terez27/status/24523713756004352)
Sometimes, Occam's Razor is your friend. Alas.
Brandon (http://twitter.com/#%21/BrandonSandrson/status/24525063210401792)
Ha. You want me to think your theories are all well-supported? You think I haven't heard @theoryland (http://twitter.com/theoryland)'s Avi theory?
Terez (http://twitter.com/#%21/Terez27/status/24525425766047744)
Hey, that was MY theory. And it was way more supported than yours! hmph... (though I didn't believe it really)
Matt Hatch (http://twitter.com/#%21/Theoryland/status/24527926447833088)
Ouch. I should get Jenn to do an Asmodean panel at JordanCon. I need an outlet for my glossary disdain.
Terez (http://twitter.com/#%21/Terez27/status/24528945588207616)
While all of us in the apathy camp (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/../factions.php?func=4&rec=61) think the glossary reveal was JUST PERFECT TAKE THAT YOU CHUMPS.
Matt Hatch (http://twitter.com/#%21/Theoryland/status/24530889287409664)
Of course you were happy, because it was the apathetic way to reveal it...I really need that panel, Jenn!
Jennifer Liang (http://twitter.com/#%21/dragonmount/status/24543771987279872)
Tell Shannan. I think we have room for another theory panel.
Terez (http://twitter.com/#%21/Terez27/status/24528354661105664)
Also, Moiraine clearly says that early unconscious channeling always comes in response to a desperate need.
Terez (http://twitter.com/#%21/Terez27/status/24528492179755008)
We know it was smooth sailing after they left Shadar Logoth, so no opportunity to make Rand channel.
Brandon (http://twitter.com/#%21/BrandonSandrson/status/24529142401732610)
Where did you get the idea that this was my theory? Just something I was curious about. :P
Terez (http://twitter.com/#%21/Terez27/status/24529891655417856)
Just from the fact that you were, you know, defending it. :p I know you said you had read it back in the day though.
Brandon (http://twitter.com/#%21/BrandonSandrson/status/24531029855305728)
Unfortunately, I don't really GET to have theories any more, since I can just look up the answers or ask Maria. :(
Brandon (http://twitter.com/#%21/BrandonSandrson/status/24531250958041089)
And the theories I do have I don't really get to post about, since they will influence the series end. Maybe once AMOL is done,
Brandon (http://twitter.com/#%21/BrandonSandrson/status/24531364430741504)
I'll pick a few things the notes are silent on, explain that they're silent, then jump in with some good, old-fashioned theories.
Brandon (http://twitter.com/#%21/BrandonSandrson/status/24531912357838850)
That won't stop me from making random comments as I read, though, so maybe those count as my theories.
Brandon (http://twitter.com/#%21/BrandonSandrson/status/24532096047382528)
I am keeping a list, though, to get answers on as I go. Already got a few, actually....
Terez (http://twitter.com/#%21/Terez27/status/24532136329478144)
That would be awesome. In the meantime, feel free to defend silly theories. It gives us something to do. ;)

Uno
01-13-2011, 01:33 PM
You know, so much speculation has resulted from RJ's use of the phrase "intuitively obvious," which just turned out to mean different things to different people. To some, it meant trying to figure out which Forsaken had the means to be there. To others, it means sort of an instinctual gut reaction they were supposed to get upon the first reading of that paragraph. RJ, who wrote the thing, obviously had a perspective not shared by any of his readers, so what was intuitively obvious to him wasn't so to anyone else.

Terez
01-13-2011, 01:37 PM
RJ told us years ago that he meant it in the same sense as his math prof. Once he told us the comment was sarcastic, we shouldn't have paid any attention to it at all.

sheikh chilli
01-13-2011, 01:37 PM
So which was it then, common-sensical or confusing to all? You can't have it both ways.

I'll note that the Sherlock Holmes analysis didn't even consider Aviendha. Hmph.

Sigh the conversation between sammael and graendal practically gave it away.

go and read that conversation again.

Terez
01-13-2011, 01:39 PM
He probably doesn't need to. Most of us know exactly what they said. People interpreted it differently, and with good reason.

Uno
01-13-2011, 01:39 PM
RJ told us years ago that he meant it in the same sense as his math prof. Once he told us the comment was sarcastic, we shouldn't have paid any attention to it at all.

Indeed? But that didn't really stop the debate about what he meant from going on and on and on, did it?

Terez
01-13-2011, 01:44 PM
Of course not. I thought about making an Asmodean FAQ breaking down all the criteria from interviews before TOM, but the apathy won out.

Uno
01-13-2011, 02:14 PM
Of course not. I thought about making an Asmodean FAQ breaking down all the criteria from interviews before TOM, but the apathy won out.

Quite. But so much stock was set by the word "intuitively." Quite a few posters held that Graendal just didn't fit the criterion because that's not what they felt when they first read that section.

alleluia_cone
01-13-2011, 02:29 PM
Quite. But so much stock was set by the word "intuitively." Quite a few posters held that Graendal just didn't fit the criterion because that's not what they felt when they first read that section.

That was always the problem, which I pointed out above. The key piece of evidence was "crime of opportunity." Then we had the scene of Graendal in Illian after Sammael was killed, which was roughly equivalent to a sledgehammer in so far as wink-winks go.

Unfortunately, the whole "intuitively" thing basically muddied the waters beyond recognition for many people and they never recovered. I see this being particularly the case with those who took up the plight of Lanfear as the killer; they could never let go of the fact that she just felt "right."

Uno
01-13-2011, 02:33 PM
I see this being particularly the case with those who took up the plight of Lanfear as the killer; they could never let go of the fact that she just felt "right."

Those may have been the people I had in mind, yes, but one doesn't like to rub it in overly much.

Weiramon
01-13-2011, 02:50 PM
I find these unfounded allegations against the Lady Basene outrageous!

It isn't the place of authors to go around making false accusations, hiding their falsehoods at the back of their tomes. Commoners should not be treating their betters in such a way.

Burn my soul, why doesn't the author just go ahead and accuse her of making the same jouney as Demandred, to visit the Great . . . I mean Dark One . . . in the Pit of Doom where she confesses?

Yellowbeard
01-14-2011, 09:20 AM
I always thought Sammael was the better choice of Asmo's killer solely based on the content of TFoH. I believe RJ had said we should be able to figure it out from TFoH alone, and all of Sammael's comments about killing Asmo, plus a bunch of other stuff (I did a theory on it once) was pretty strong.

In the big scheme of things though, it doesn't matter. Asmo's part in the story was done, nothing else for him to do or add. Wouldn't have mattered if he had been murdered, or had simply ran off and was determined to spend his time fishing for a record size grouper.

Goldie
01-14-2011, 09:35 AM
But you know if he did run away to go fishing, if it wasn't mentioned explicitly, there would be a dozen theories on here as to what Asmo is up to. :cool:

Juan
01-14-2011, 10:45 AM
I honestly don't know why people cared about Asmodean's death so much. I read over that and didn't even think twice about who could've killed him. In fact, during my first read of the series, and maybe even my second, I didn't even know that Asmodean had died. I don't even remember assuming anything about him. I didn't even bother assuming he had run away, gotten captured, or died.. Just he disappeared from the story and I didn't care. Then by the 3rd reread, I kinda caught on he was dead, but still, no thought as to who did it. Just didn't plain care. Asmodean was done in terms of the storyline.

Then I encountered the online groups where there is all this attention and apparently this is like the big question of the series. I remember my impression of the attention given to this was something like "this is ridiculous because you're treating this a like a crime-solving mystery sort of book. Which the WOT definitely is not. But whatever."

Years later, I finally decided to read a theory one day because I had nothing to do and then I was a bit more intrigued by then, and then I read another theory and concluded it was Graendal. (And btw this was only half a year ago or so).

But honestly, I really don't see what all the fuss was about, why people cared so much. Anyone care to explain why? What the big deal was?

GonzoTheGreat
01-14-2011, 10:57 AM
But honestly, I really don't see what all the fuss was about, why people cared so much. Anyone care to explain why? What the big deal was?Some people had other ideas about it. Obviously they were wrong, and they needed to be convinced of that. This did not work out quite as well as planned, and the rest is history. Lots of it. Hence the apathy faction.

Envelope
01-14-2011, 11:55 AM
Asmodean was killed?! :confused::confused::confused:

Belazamon
01-14-2011, 10:55 PM
In fact, during my first read of the series, and maybe even my second, I didn't even know that Asmodean had died.
I guess "death took him" is pretty ambiguous.

Juan
01-14-2011, 11:41 PM
@Gonzo
Seriously man.. even after it's over we're still talking about it.. although granted, it's not really a debate on who killed him but rather on whether it made sense.. I guess to not sidetrack the post too much I'll say that to me at least it made sense it was Graendal.

@Envelope
hahaha no way that's impossible.

Fie
01-15-2011, 06:42 AM
...maybe we should hand a petition to Mrs. Jordan, Mr.Sanderson and whomever to have a Asmodean prequel written, so the Asmodean fetish could at least concentrate on some new things... :)

Sodas
01-16-2011, 12:56 AM
So does that mean that this Sherlock Holmes theory, was used as a complete basis for Brandon's belief on Asmodean? Yes, the theory has many points, that Jordan could have been commenting on the main theme(s) of the theory in general. But to believe it word for word?

Sorry, but I'll never buy into the idea that it's Balefire. I can believe that Graendal was involved, even personally, in Asmodean's death, but Balefire?

No way. There is no bloody way it was Balefire. Sherlock Holmes needs to get with the 21st century, where we understand the effects of sound waves.

Terez
01-16-2011, 03:30 AM
Sorry, but I'll never buy into the idea that it's Balefire.
No one cares.

GonzoTheGreat
01-16-2011, 04:08 AM
I guess "death took him" is pretty ambiguous.I dunno. Could be a pretty big hint:
"Yes, I do, Moghedien. You may call me Moridin."

Moghedien gasped. Not for the name; any fool could call himself Death.

Juan
01-17-2011, 12:37 AM
@Fie
lol... Asmodean fetish... hahaha that's priceless. I never saw it quite like that. Good call.

Belazamon
01-21-2011, 11:13 PM
I dunno. Could be a pretty big hint:
Ah yes, the ol' "didn't notice that someone died because of a comment two books later" defense. How could I have missed that one? :p

Fie
01-24-2011, 03:16 AM
-_-

Fie
01-24-2011, 06:05 AM
sorry. :o

Tigraine
02-01-2011, 05:15 PM
I'm a bit behind in my reading (as usual), but when I finally came across the now-infamous passage that finally confirmed Graendal as Asmo's killer, I have to say I was quite elated. I remember way back in 2004 or 2005 when I wrote up my own custom version of the Graendal Killed Asmodean theory that included subtle stuff like her having a penchant for drinking wine and Asmo being killed near a wine cellar. Jason Wolfbrother and I spent days defending that thread. Now, all these years later, it's nice to see that my reasoning wasn't completely flawed. Anyway, I just had to reminisce about the Asmo War one last time.

Terez
02-01-2011, 06:49 PM
Hey Tigraine! Long time no see...