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Envelope
01-10-2011, 02:45 PM
Okay im new to this forum so many of these questions may have been explained before so bear with me.

1. What's the story with Aiel male channelers? Since they would've no doubt gone insane before the cleansing of saidin what did wise ones do with them.. not sure if it was explained in the books or not.

2. Are Aes Sedai the most useless collective in the whole series? It's either them or whitecloaks, but at least most nations pay the whitecloaks no heed so it has to be the Aes Sedai.
Apart from all their glaringly obvious faults, (vain, proud, power seeking, self righteous, blinkered, condescending, naive etc) after reading TGS and TOM it occured to me that they're actually quite stupid. Egwene's "master manipulation" and gains in the hall against Sitters who're presumably the best Aes Sedai wasn't remotely clever! it was so simple a teenager could have done it. Perhaps it's partially because RJ was never really proficient at writing female characters but I dunno, they don't seem all that bright, these Aes Sedai.
They don't fight with the borderlanders but offer counsellors to monarchs even though their own judgement is constantly proven to be lacking.
Exhibit A: Elaida - The Aes Sedai who's proven herself to be the biggest moron (apart from Perrin) in the whole WOT.. yet she was charged with advising Morgase, the most powerful ruler.. Nuff' said!

3. Who was more useless.. Balthalmel or Aginor?

4. Demandred: Possibly what im looking forward to most in final book is who the hell is demandred?!
I seem to remember reading that he'd first appeared with an alias in KOD so who first appears in that book?
The main candidates are the King of Murandy and Guybon.. but these guys seem too minor to be Demandred. Personally I believe he's in Western Seanchan.. that'd mean civil war for the seanchan in the final book keeping them occupied while Rand's forces go north. Any other characters he could be who appear in KOD?

5. The Baddies: I really enjoyed the battle between Ituralde and the trollocs but why the deuce are the trollocs trying to make a breakthrough over that killing field? Why don't a few dreadlords & black ajah get together.. and make large gateways in the middle of Tar Valon, Caemlyn, Tear etc rather than marching from the Blight or using portal stones in Andor.
No need to answer this one, tis standard baddie logic.

6. Is there going to be a WOT movie or series? I seem to remember reading ages ago that Universal had secured the rights.. any word on that?


I'm afraid that's all I can think of right now :p
Apologies for the length of this meandering rant.

Madgod
01-10-2011, 02:58 PM
Without having any books on me, here's what I remember:
1) Aiel men go into the Waste to try to kill the DO. It is assumed that they die in the Waste.
4) Actually, his alter ego has not shown on screen as of . . . TGS I think. So it is all speculation, major theories being Roedran in Murandy and the murderer on the throne in Seanchan. Personally, I like Roedran.
5) Remember that shadowspawn can't travel through gateways - portal stones are the quickest way to transport Trollocs.
6) Maybe. Red Eagle Entertainment currently has the rights, but I haven't really seen any information about movies other than that.

Juan
01-10-2011, 03:30 PM
Madgod did a good job with answering the questions but I'm going to add in a few things.

1. What Madgod said.

2. No. There's plenty of competent AS. Even if you don't like them, there are plenty who are wise, fair, just, etc. Some are dumb and fair. Some are smart but misguided. Some are dumb and misguided. Etc. etc. You are focusing on the bad of the AS (as it is easier to focus on the bad than the good. That's why drama sells and you never really hear about good things on the news. You just hear the bad). Same here. Think Cadsuane, Moiraine, Nynaeve, Verin, Alanna, Silviana, Annoura, etc. etc. Imagine all the AS we haven't heard of. Likely you've heard mostly the bad of the AS because it makes a more interesting story. Take for example when Mat had that building fall on him and wasn't in one of the books. I forget which one exactly. When asked why he wasn't in the book, Robert Jordan said something to the effect of "remember he had a building fall on him, give him a break. Besides, he had to heal and recover, you wouldn't want to hear of him laying around in the bed all day, right?" Just like Mat didn't make a good story then. AS being wise in general don't make a good story unless it's attached to one of the main characters like in the case of Moiraine with Rand and Cadsuane with Rand or in the case of a big plotline, as in the case of Verin with the reveal of the Shadow.

3. Aginor created the Trollocs and thus indirectly the Myrdraal and many other constructs of the Shadow. I definitely wouldn't say he's useless. In fact I'd say very useful. (For the Shadow). Balthamel wasn't the most useful granted, but he was still quite an asset to the Shadow. If you read the Big White Book of Awesomeness, you'll see that he was "quite strong in the power." And also, he "headed an intelligence network which competed with that run by Moghedien." And remember that back then many battles were won because the Shadow was better informed in many areas thanks to their spies. Also he bred humans and fed them to Trollocs in camps he set up just for that. I wouldn't really call him useless either.

4. According to RJ, Demandred is Demandred.

5. Madgod answered it well. The Shadowspawn die.

6. Having rights doesn't mean that they'll actually make a movie, it just means they're the only ones who can in layman's terms. According to RJ, the key people who were actually planning on doing they movie left. And so he believed it wasn't likely. Doesn't seem likely at this point either, although I do hope it'll change in the near future.

Terez
01-10-2011, 04:21 PM
Okay im new to this forum so many of these questions may have been explained before so bear with me.

1. What's the story with Aiel male channelers? Since they would've no doubt gone insane before the cleansing of saidin what did wise ones do with them.. not sure if it was explained in the books or not.
If you're talking about the red-veiled ones...the implication is that they have the Dark One's protection, like the Forsaken did. Or maybe they are just mad. They seem to be at least a little bit not-sane.

GonzoTheGreat
01-10-2011, 04:21 PM
2. AS have the problem of being a very old organisation, with lots of old, yet still valid, rules. Just consider their precedence rules: strength is most important, unless it is age (in the Hall), or superseded by some other consideration such as orders from above, which may or may not apply at any particular moment.
Just imagine that the Whitecloaks had a similar system. Of course, the fact that the Whitecloaks outsmart them in this respect is not a ringing endorsement for AS sensibility. Oh well, I tried.

WinespringBrother
01-10-2011, 04:51 PM
#6 One of the producers for the potential WOT movie was at JordanCon last year, and will presumably be there this year, so maybe he will provide more info at that time (mid April).

The Immortal One
01-11-2011, 05:27 AM
2. AS have the problem of being a very old organisation, with lots of old, yet still valid, rules. Just consider their precedence rules: strength is most important, unless it is age (in the Hall), or superseded by some other consideration such as orders from above, which may or may not apply at any particular moment.

My main problem is the fact that they have even more old rules and customs which are not only invalid now, but totally nonsensical.

GonzoTheGreat
01-11-2011, 05:59 AM
My main problem is the fact that they have even more old rules and customs which are not only invalid now, but totally nonsensical.Well, they are human, you know.

Seeker
01-11-2011, 11:34 AM
LOL.

These questions were hilarious.

Okay im new to this forum so many of these questions may have been explained before so bear with me.

1. What's the story with Aiel male channelers? Since they would've no doubt gone insane before the cleansing of saidin what did wise ones do with them.. not sure if it was explained in the books or not.

They go into the blight and kill everything they find until something inevitably kills them.

2. Are Aes Sedai the most useless collective in the whole series? It's either them or whitecloaks, but at least most nations pay the whitecloaks no heed so it has to be the Aes Sedai.
Apart from all their glaringly obvious faults, (vain, proud, power seeking, self righteous, blinkered, condescending, naive etc) after reading TGS and TOM it occured to me that they're actually quite stupid. Egwene's "master manipulation" and gains in the hall against Sitters who're presumably the best Aes Sedai wasn't remotely clever! it was so simple a teenager could have done it. Perhaps it's partially because RJ was never really proficient at writing female characters but I dunno, they don't seem all that bright, these Aes Sedai.
They don't fight with the borderlanders but offer counsellors to monarchs even though their own judgement is constantly proven to be lacking.
Exhibit A: Elaida - The Aes Sedai who's proven herself to be the biggest moron (apart from Perrin) in the whole WOT.. yet she was charged with advising Morgase, the most powerful ruler.. Nuff' said!

Most Aes Sedai are too dumb to live

3. Who was more useless.. Balthalmel or Aginor?

Balthamel, of course, he got killed by a walking tree.


4. Demandred: Possibly what im looking forward to most in final book is who the hell is demandred?!
I seem to remember reading that he'd first appeared with an alias in KOD so who first appears in that book?
The main candidates are the King of Murandy and Guybon.. but these guys seem too minor to be Demandred. Personally I believe he's in Western Seanchan.. that'd mean civil war for the seanchan in the final book keeping them occupied while Rand's forces go north. Any other characters he could be who appear in KOD?


http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=4527

Demandred's rule is secure


5. The Baddies: I really enjoyed the battle between Ituralde and the trollocs but why the deuce are the trollocs trying to make a breakthrough over that killing field? Why don't a few dreadlords & black ajah get together.. and make large gateways in the middle of Tar Valon, Caemlyn, Tear etc rather than marching from the Blight or using portal stones in Andor.
No need to answer this one, tis standard baddie logic.

As of KOD, shadowspawn can't pass through gateways. (But they probably could before).

6. Is there going to be a WOT movie or series? I seem to remember reading ages ago that Universal had secured the rights.. any word on that?

God I hope not.


I'm afraid that's all I can think of right now :p
Apologies for the length of this meandering rant.[/QUOTE]

Envelope
01-13-2011, 11:09 AM
I posted a bunch of questions here the other day, got some great answers so cheers to those who responded.
However! i thought of a few more so here goes..


1. Do we know who inhabits the Land of the Madmen?

2. What do Sea Folk do with male channelers prior to the cleansing of Saidin.

3. Robbing the White Tower:
Why didn't any forsaken think to steal all the lovely ter'angreal, angreal and sa'angreal from the White Tower? Presumably the Aes Sedai have horded all sorts of wonderful contraptions from the Age of Legends, they probably don't even know what some of them do. So why didn't any Forsaken steal some stuff. It would've been easy - hop into Tel'aran'rhiod (since the Chosen are proficient here) ,sniff out where they're kept. Make a gateway in the real world, in and out in 5 minutes - Simplez! And since the Chosen are from the AOL they'd find any Aes Sedai wards or traps encountered contemptible.

4. The Dark One - We hear how if Rand destroys the remaining seals it will release the DO. But does this mean that he could assume some form in the world or a vessel like Sauron .. or does it just mean that his power and influence in the world would increase greatly to the point where he can do such acts as say.. corrupt the male half of the power..

5. Is Mat the most unlucky *luckiest* man alive.
I mean, here's a guy who's had a dagger make him violently ill. The poor lad has been hung from a tree, had a building fall on him and just had his eye gauged out by a mysterious foxman :confused:. Not to mention he had a super-shadowspawn chasing him around the world for about a year and now finds himself near the top of the most powerful evil baddie To-do list (Forsaken)
But because he wins pub games he's considered the luckiest guy alive? :confused: I think he's probably the most unlucky character, after Rand, in the whole series who's still breathing.

6. In TOM i still don't understand Aviendah's viewings and why none of the major players are in either of the 2 most recent. The last (most recent) occurs 17 years ahead of our "present day" we see her children and Rhuairc's son. Yet there's no sign of Aviendha herself, of Bair, Amys, Elayne, Tuon, Egwene, Nynaeve, Mat, Perrin or any of the other major world leaders.
Now obviously if Sanderson had mentioned any individual it would have been a bit of a spoiler in that we'd know X survives Tarmon Gai'don but if he's going to write the future where there's anarchy, the absence of the major players in the world seems kinda peculiar.

7. Padan Fain - or whatever he's calling himself these days used to be a darkfriend. Presumably this means the DO has control of his soul so he's not really That much of a threat to the baddies?


That is all for now. :p

GonzoTheGreat
01-13-2011, 11:40 AM
1. Kangaroos. Apart from that, our knowledge is a bit spotty.

2. They gave them a choice: either drowning, or being stranded on an island without a fresh water source.*

3. From what I remember, one of the Forsaken has remarked that there are rather substantial wards in the Tower. As those wards would stem from the early days, when the AS still had some competence, that seems reasonable. Then again, it definitely does not square with all the evidence we get from all the actual incursions into the WT *angreal storage places, so there is a fairly obvious discrepancy here.

4. RAFO

5. Well, look at the other side: he's married to a wife who, if he is very, very lucky, allows him to kiss her. Maybe. A wife who also happens to own the largest private collection of torturers in the world

6. I don't think her viewings show reality; instead they show what reality would be if a partial victory for the Light were reached. For instance: I doubt all Shadowspawn would be exterminated by the time of the last vision, let alone all DFs.

7. Fain is a bit of an odd duck. And since about all anyone in Randland knows about ducks is that they have something to do with shearing sheep (CoT, Chapter 18), they do not really know how to deal with him.
In other words, Fain is about as safe to handle as a microwave without any protective covering. Sure, a good chef might be able to boil an egg in it, but I wouldn't want to try that myself.

* I think. I haven't looked up this item, and it's a long time since I wondered about the specific of it, so I could be mistaken here.

Terez
01-13-2011, 12:17 PM
1. Do we know who inhabits the Land of the Madmen?
We know there are a lot of crazy male channelers there, which has led to some geographical oddities there, like a bunch of volcanoes. And there are some female channelers there too, who have supposedly gone nearly as crazy as the men.

2. What do Sea Folk do with male channelers prior to the cleansing of Saidin.
Execution.

3. Robbing the White Tower:
Why didn't any forsaken think to steal all the lovely ter'angreal, angreal and sa'angreal from the White Tower?
They did. Mesaana has been complaining about the wards for some time now.

4. The Dark One - We hear how if Rand destroys the remaining seals it will release the DO. But does this mean that he could assume some form in the world or a vessel like Sauron .. or does it just mean that his power and influence in the world would increase greatly to the point where he can do such acts as say.. corrupt the male half of the power..
We don't know exactly. Keep in mind that the prison was unsealed for over 100 years in the Age of Legends before Lews Therin sealed it.

6. In TOM i still don't understand Aviendah's viewings and why none of the major players are in either of the 2 most recent.
They're either hiding or dead. One theory is that Rand goes to live in secret in the Westwood after the Last Battle, so maybe Elayne and Aviendha took off as soon as their children were grown. We saw Bael.

7. Padan Fain - or whatever he's calling himself these days used to be a darkfriend. Presumably this means the DO has control of his soul so he's not really That much of a threat to the baddies?
They have no control over him at all. In fact, he has control over them in a lot of ways - he can control Shadowspawn and order Darkfriends. The Shadow sees him as a renegade.

alleluia_cone
01-13-2011, 01:06 PM
You should be asking what the hell Rand and Egwene were doing the three weeks they were not shown "on-screen" in ToM . . . Now that, is a mystery.

GonzoTheGreat
01-13-2011, 02:54 PM
Egwene was plotting to become Amyrlin. Duh! That's what she's being the whole entire series. No reason to stop now, just because she's actually got the title already, is there?

The Immortal One
01-13-2011, 07:55 PM
1. Do we know who inhabits the Land of the Madmen?

Not a clue. Besides madmen. What I vaguely remember from the BWB is that there were, and are, so many insane male channellers - with too few female channellers to control them - that the entire area has been knocked back to the stone age.

2. What do Sea Folk do with male channelers prior to the cleansing of Saidin.

They got a choice. Either they can commit suicide by jumping overboard tied to large, heavy stones; or they can be left on a tiny desert island to starve to death.

Rand told them to stop doing that, but it was implied that the Seafolk don't believe he cleansed the Source and are continuing their murderous practices.

3. Robbing the White Tower:
Why didn't any forsaken think to steal all the lovely ter'angreal, angreal and sa'angreal from the White Tower? Presumably the Aes Sedai have horded all sorts of wonderful contraptions from the Age of Legends, they probably don't even know what some of them do. So why didn't any Forsaken steal some stuff. It would've been easy - hop into Tel'aran'rhiod (since the Chosen are proficient here) ,sniff out where they're kept. Make a gateway in the real world, in and out in 5 minutes - Simplez! And since the Chosen are from the AOL they'd find any Aes Sedai wards or traps encountered contemptible.

They may find the wards contemptible, but it seems they still stopped the Forsaken. I agree with you, but as far as I can tell that is the only reason.

And the fact that there are 300+ Aes Sedai in the Tower. If you could be caught and held by the 13 weakest people in existence would you volunteer to face 300 of them? If they would imprison you just long enough to decide how to execute you?

Mesaana, hidden in the Tower is implied to have acquired some almost worthless Ter'angreal, but she seems to think that anything worth revealing herself would be too well guarded and warded.

4. The Dark One - We hear how if Rand destroys the remaining seals it will release the DO. But does this mean that he could assume some form in the world or a vessel like Sauron .. or does it just mean that his power and influence in the world would increase greatly to the point where he can do such acts as say.. corrupt the male half of the power..

Unknown. The Dark One already has an avatar - a weak one - in Shaidar Haran. RJ said that the Dark One could only taint Saidin because of a confluence of events; it's unlikely he could just do it again.

Most likely breaking the seals will simply mean that the Dark One will have a greatly increased influence on the world and, since his touch in already capable of holding the seasons in place, that would be bad.

5. Is Mat the most unlucky *luckiest* man alive.
I mean, here's a guy who's had a dagger make him violently ill. The poor lad has been hung from a tree, had a building fall on him and just had his eye gauged out by a mysterious foxman :confused:. Not to mention he had a super-shadowspawn chasing him around the world for about a year and now finds himself near the top of the most powerful evil baddie To-do list (Forsaken)
But because he wins pub games he's considered the luckiest guy alive? :confused: I think he's probably the most unlucky character, after Rand, in the whole series who's still breathing.

Well, like you say, he's alive. How many people do you know that could survive all that and simply come out of it with minor wounds? (Besides his eye - and he chose that).

6. In TOM i still don't understand Aviendah's viewings and why none of the major players are in either of the 2 most recent. The last (most recent) occurs 17 years ahead of our "present day" we see her children and Rhuairc's son. Yet there's no sign of Aviendha herself, of Bair, Amys, Elayne, Tuon, Egwene, Nynaeve, Mat, Perrin or any of the other major world leaders.
Now obviously if Sanderson had mentioned any individual it would have been a bit of a spoiler in that we'd know X survives Tarmon Gai'don but if he's going to write the future where there's anarchy, the absence of the major players in the world seems kinda peculiar.

Exactly. He can't come right out and say who survives and who doesn't. It would ruin the suspense of the Last Battle - the suspense we've been in (some of us) for decades. Besides, it is the Last Battle. Chances are most people died. Or perhaps Rand and his friends decided they've had enough excitement for a lifetime and have retired. Perhaps the Ogier opened the Book of Translation and everyone important got sucked in with them. Or perhaps that whole vision was a big LIE.

7. Padan Fain - or whatever he's calling himself these days used to be a darkfriend. Presumably this means the DO has control of his soul so he's not really That much of a threat to the baddies?

It's implied that the direct touch of the Dark One and the corruption of Mordeth mixed to make Padan Fain more than merely a darkfriend.

He's referred to as the renegade. So much so that Slayer (Luc/Isam) was sent after him with an army of, at least, several thousand trollocs. Padan Fain survived. I'd say that means Fain is as big a problem for the Shadow as for the Light.

Juan
01-13-2011, 08:21 PM
Everything has been answered pretty. As to the Padan Fain thing, I don't think the DO has his soul.. Cause far as we knew he didn't become a Grey Man. Meaning, he still had his soul. Although now, he may not have one.. but it's definitely not the DO's.

Just a Reader
01-14-2011, 09:52 AM
Not a clue. Besides madmen. What I vaguely remember from the BWB is that there were, and are, so many insane male channellers - with too few female channellers to control them - that the entire area has been knocked back to the stone age.


Another one with questions... one question at least ;)

What's all this about the land of the madmen? I can't remember reading something like this. Did I just miss/forget it?

GonzoTheGreat
01-14-2011, 10:17 AM
It's a splot somewhere far away in the ocean to the south of Randland. It has a description of a little less than a third of a page in the BWB, and that's the only* mention of it, as far as I know.

Based on that, loads of theories regarding its enormous importance in Tarmon Gai'don have been written, of course.
The most sensible theory by far is that it's Australia. Some Aussies seem to think that it is New Zealand, though#.

* Apart from the map of the world, also in the BWB, where the splot is shown. And the index of the BWB, where the Land of the Madman is graced by two entries (under "land" and under "madman").

# I may be misremembering this bit, I have to admit.

Juan
01-14-2011, 11:41 AM
Yeah the Land of Madmen has channelers, most of which are male and mad. They've played no role in the actual storyline yet.

We've only heard of it because of the World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time. A book commonly referred to as BWB. Which I believe stands for Big White Book... haha. But yeah. If you missed this, then you probably haven't read this book? It's a great book and I totally recommend it. It's probably one of my favorite in the series even though it's not really part of the series because it's mainly intended as a big book of information...

Terez
01-14-2011, 01:10 PM
I believe some people must have seen it mentioned in the interviews and wondered about it.

BTW, the BWB is well worth the purchase. Not for the art, but for the history and other world details.

Juan
01-14-2011, 03:48 PM
@Terez
You know, I initially bought it for the art. I fell in love with it when I opened up the book to a random page. The first thing I saw was Lanfear's picture. The art, at least in my opinion, is quite good. Doesn't mean everything's how I pictured it and all that, but it's entertaining to look at.

But yeah, to be honest now I don't look at the art. I just love reading that book. I feel kinda bad though because I like history but I like reading the WOT's "history" portion in terms of the Age of Legends, the Breaking, and all that more than real history in many ways.. I don't even know how many times I've read those specific chapters. In fact, everything up to and including Hawking's battle, I've read sooo many times. And the weird places like the Land of Madmen and Shara and Seanchan also draw my attention.

Actually to make it simple, I love reading the book in general. The only things I generally don't read too much are the nations' little info like Andor, Shienar, etc. etc. toward the end of the book.

I'd say the BWB is worth the purchase for the info AND the art too. :P

Envelope
01-14-2011, 05:29 PM
Is this BWB "The World of Robert Jordan's WOT" with Teresa Patterson?

If so i've had it on my book shelf all these years (brother left it here) and only glossed over it once about 6 or 7 years ago. I looked at bits on characters.. saw they weren't up to date with the current books so i didn't pay it much heed.
Hmm must have a look.

Juan
01-14-2011, 05:46 PM
Yes that is it. Check it out, it's awesome.

Just a Reader
01-17-2011, 07:24 AM
Hey Guys, thanks a lot for this information. Seems like I will have to visit amazon pretty soon :)

GonzoTheGreat
01-17-2011, 08:42 AM
Hey Guys, thanks a lot for this information. Seems like I will have to visit amazon pretty soon :)Man, you could almost pass the Spambot exam with that post. :p

gholam
01-17-2011, 09:24 AM
#6 One of the producers for the potential WOT movie was at JordanCon last year, and will presumably be there this year, so maybe he will provide more info at that time (mid April).
I hope it's a TV series and not a movie. Movie tend to chop a lot of interesting scenes.

Crispin's Crispian
01-17-2011, 03:13 PM
I memorized the BWB a few months before I found Theoryland. Between that and obsessing over the Wot:FAQ I managed to come across as "not a total idiot." Or I hope I did. Now...who can say?


ETA: What's to say some Forsaken haven't stolen stuff from the Tower? Remember how incredulous Graendal was about the Dreamspike...

ChubbyAiel
01-24-2011, 10:26 AM
My thoughts when I read Aviendha's vision of the future is that something must have happened to her and Rand, but not necessarily to anyone else. The Aiel are trying to decide what is right for them and how they have to find purpose and direction for themselves as a people. That's why no thought it given to Mat, Perrin, Nynaeve, Egwene, etc. Such people are not Aiel and what they are upto now, if they live, is irrelevant. The Aiel give special consideration to the suggestions of Aviendha's children because they are the children of the Dragon. If Aviendha was still alive, I'm sure she would occupy a position of importance as both a Wise One and the children's mother / the Dragon's widow.

Also, if Aviendha survived for long it would be easy for her to right this series of events by just bringing her children up with one message: don't fight the Seanchan, and pass this on to your children, and let me tell you why...

I think the vision tells us that Rand dies at the Last Battle and Aviendha died in childbirth. Aviendha will now have to set in motion the events that will save her and/or Rand to make sure their offspring grow up to offer the Aiel the guidance they need, or make provisions for the Aiel in some other way. We can infer nothing about the other major characters as they would largely be an irrelevance to the individuals through whose eyes Aviendha perceived the future, and to the people to whom they were talking.

Terez
01-24-2011, 10:32 AM
Obviously Aviendha didn't die in childbirth since even Oncala remembers her.

Enigma
01-24-2011, 10:37 AM
I agree that the typical Aiel view (not the view of those leaders who have spent time around some of the other important wetlanders) is to view only Aiel as important.

Given the detail attention afforded the Seanchan it is strange that not only is there no mention of Tuon beyond she was nice but now is gone, likewise there is no mention of Mat or even Perrin. One might think that all the significant players ie the three ta'avern and the wonder girls all upped and left after the last battle or very soon after it.

We should probably not get too tied up on using the visions as a guide to the future because firstly Aviendha is probably going to try to change things and secondly it was probably based on what was likely to happen according to the pattern. The DO is outside the pattern and thus presumably can't be predicted what he will do/effect so I think that RJ set it up that he would have quite a lot of justification to have the world go off in completly a different direction if he wanted it to.

ChubbyAiel
01-24-2011, 10:57 AM
Cheers, Terez. I shot through that book so quickly that I really need to read it again. I don't suppose you remember if there was any allusion to if her memory of Aviendha was an old one?

David Selig
01-24-2011, 11:20 AM
With the abudance of master Healers around, it would be just lame if Aviendha or Elayne or anyone else who has access to Healing is to die in childbirth. As we saw in ToM when Chesmal Healed Elayne, good Healers have no problems working successfully on a seriously injured pregnant woman without harming the babies.

Besides, as Terez said, Aviendha's granddaugther Oncala remembered her face, so unless Aviendha had posed for a portrait and Oncala had seen it (highly unlikely), Aviendha must've survived for at least 25 years or so after the birth of her quadruplets.

Envelope
01-24-2011, 11:30 AM
Okay so I have a couple more stupid questions! They'll probably be shot down in flames as it's been years since i read the older books in the series.


- Rand no longer hears Lews Therin's voice in his head, he explains to.. Min? that he and Lews Therin were/are the same. Presumably they have the same soul and the pattern spits it out once an age when a dragon or champion of the Light is needed. So if this is the case and they are indeed the same soul why is it Rand could hear his voice in the first place? Seems like that would be the equivalent of Birgette hearing the voices of her previous lives in her head which is proposterous.
Secondly, if Rand and Lews Therin are separate entities, why is it that Rand can only hear one previous Dragon in his head. The fight between the Light and DO has been happening since the beginning of time itself so there's surely been numerous Dragons yet Rand can only hear one..


Another unrelated point.. on the Caemlyn predicament thread someone mentioned something i'd thought about, namely putting up gateways in scattered corners of the city as traps for trollocs & other shadowspawn. NOW!!! What about.. a circle of 13 AS / Ashaman putting up huge gateways... oh say.. on the front lines of the large-scale battles we're about to have in the borderlands! Have say 3 or 4 circles ohannelers erecting adjacent gateways in the trolloc - congested parts of the battlefield. Keep it open for an hour (like Perrin's channels did for his army) and watch hundreds of thousands of shadowspawn get slaughtered without so much as a tap. If you think about it, it makes more sense than fireballs - In TOM Rand the most powerful channeler rained down hell for just a few minutes, killed tens of thousands and was completely exhausted afterwards, gateways you can keep open for an hour or two before the exhaustion kicks in and the circle channelers need not be that powerful.

ChubbyAiel
01-24-2011, 11:35 AM
Yeah, Healers should be able to stop someone dying in childbirth, but if there weren't any around, perhaps because in the upheaval after the Last Battle if fighting is drawn out for a few weeks or months after the sealing of the Bore, or if there are geogrpahical shifts, etc, it wouldn't be totally inconceivable.

If that was the setting against which an isolated Aviendha gave birth, it wouldn't necessarily be "lame".

But I accept that such a theory has been debunked by you and Terez and it is clearly not what happened.

Terez
01-24-2011, 11:42 AM
Rand no longer hears Lews Therin's voice in his head, he explains to.. Min? that he and Lews Therin were/are the same. Presumably they have the same soul and the pattern spits it out once an age when a dragon or champion of the Light is needed. So if this is the case and they are indeed the same soul why is it Rand could hear his voice in the first place? Seems like that would be the equivalent of Birgette hearing the voices of her previous lives in her head which is proposterous.
Indeed. The voice is sort of a defense mechanism. In other words, Rand starts getting the memories way before there is anything resembling a 'voice', and it takes him a good long time before he manages to have a 'conversation' with the voice. Anyway, the memories cause him to go into fits of denial, and the 'voice' is his convoluted way of pretending that Lews Therin is another man. Because if it was himself, then he would have to accept responsibility for what he did in his past life. He's a good boy, so he ends up doing that anyway (the litany is a good example of that), so you might say he was disassociating himself from the grief.

He only has memories from one past life - Lews Therin's life. So, no other 'voices'.

There has been some debate on this in the past. Read up here (https://docs.google.com/View?docID=dcjspjqg_990f87t6bfk&revision=_latest).

Davian93
01-24-2011, 11:46 AM
Obviously Aviendha didn't die in childbirth since even Oncala remembers her.

Leia remembers Padme too...just sayin'. ;)

There has been some debate on this in the past. Read up here.


Some?!? Understatement of the century. There's also been "some" debate on who killed Asmo.

Terez
01-24-2011, 11:47 AM
Leia remembers Padme too...just sayin'. ;)
Who?

Enigma
01-24-2011, 11:48 AM
Envelope on the question of why Rand would hear LTT's voice if they were one and the same soul the answeer is complicated. I have tended to avoid the two debates on if LTT was real but the two arguements go something like this.

LTT was real. He had the same soul as Rand but he had a lot of differnet life experiences so while he would have a lot of common traits with Rand his personality would be different. Perhaps he learned to play the piano when he was young, and loved piano music where Rand was more into sheep etc. LTT likewise saw paradice destroyed and a terrible 10 year war start where unspeakable horrors happened every day and as leader he would have seen them or seen reports on them. Either way they would have sligthly differnet outlooks and views on things even though they were essentially the same person.

LTT was a construct. Rand via the taint had access to some of his previous memories and was to cope his mind made up a made up personality that was moddles on the bits and pieces of LTT's memories he had but may not have exaclty been how LTT was.

Either way the LTT persona was not exactly the same as Rand hence different 'voice'.

On why he did not hear the voice of pre LTT dragon, the taint gave him access to the personality or memories of his most recent incarnation which was LTT. The person before that was more distanct in his mind.

Davian93
01-24-2011, 11:52 AM
The thing to remember is that no one debates the legitimacy of the memories. The memories are from LTT (Rand's past life). Some of us say that the rest is all sub-conscious defense mechanisms by Rand to deal with "inevitably going mad" while others say that LTT is a separate legitimate individual sharing the Dragon soul with Rand...that he is separate from Rand and knowingly providing information. IMHO, the evidence weighs heavily towards the former theory being correct. Rand and Min's comments in the last 2 books tend to lean that way too.

Rand's reintegration on Dragonmount seems to support this too. That said, Welcome to Theoryland!

Davian93
01-24-2011, 11:53 AM
Who?

It was a lame Star Wars continuity joke. Stupid George Lucas.

Fie
01-25-2011, 02:21 AM
I´m sure somewhere there´s a SW board with an abundance of theories thereover, e.g. Leia can actually remember her because of the OP, ah, no, the Force, she walked through a Rhuidean-like thing on some outer-rim-planet and saw her past in form of Padme or whatever ;)

I like my "BwB" very much, I was just sad that the info about nations etc. wasn´t as extended as I had hoped for. I like the art, but given the choice, I would have preferred more info and let myself imagine how and what everything/everyone looks like, though.

Bluedust
01-25-2011, 08:22 AM
I like my "BwB" very much, I was just sad that the info about nations etc. wasn´t as extended as I had hoped for. I like the art, but given the choice, I would have preferred more info and let myself imagine how and what everything/everyone looks like, though.

:eek:

Fie
01-25-2011, 10:29 AM
:D well, maybe I should be more precise for your sake ;) I don´t like the art artwise - I only buy the Orbit books, because I can´t stand the cover art of the other edition, even if I have to wait for the newest book longer then - but I like it because of the info to be gained from the maps and drawings as to how banners, people etc. are supposed to look like. Though, as I said, given the choice I would have traded the art for more and more and more words...

dominominic
01-25-2011, 11:01 AM
I believe some people must have seen it mentioned in the interviews and wondered about it.

BTW, the BWB is well worth the purchase. Not for the art, but for the history and other world details.

Ugh, yes!

The art is horrible!

knightofround
01-25-2011, 02:55 PM
- Rand no longer hears Lews Therin's voice in his head, he explains to.. Min? that he and Lews Therin were/are the same. Presumably they have the same soul and the pattern spits it out once an age when a dragon or champion of the Light is needed. So if this is the case and they are indeed the same soul why is it Rand could hear his voice in the first place? Seems like that would be the equivalent of Birgette hearing the voices of her previous lives in her head which is proposterous.
Secondly, if Rand and Lews Therin are separate entities, why is it that Rand can only hear one previous Dragon in his head. The fight between the Light and DO has been happening since the beginning of time itself so there's surely been numerous Dragons yet Rand can only hear one..Well, WoT is based upon cyclical chronology. So it makes sense that he can't "know" beyond the most recent First Age version of the dragon. It is still possible that the third persona that was noticed by LTT was 1st age Dragon instead of Moridin. I doubt we'll ever find out now. Second, for all we know it's possible that some of LTT's ramblings/knowledge/oozed habits indeed belong to the 1st age Dragon instead of 2nd age Dragon. LTT's "voice" was a psychological construct Rand created to make sense of his reincarnation memories resurfacing.


Another unrelated point.. on the Caemlyn predicament thread someone mentioned something i'd thought about, namely putting up gateways in scattered corners of the city as traps for trollocs & other shadowspawn. NOW!!! What about.. a circle of 13 AS / Ashaman putting up huge gateways... oh say.. on the front lines of the large-scale battles we're about to have in the borderlands! Have say 3 or 4 circles ohannelers erecting adjacent gateways in the trolloc - congested parts of the battlefield. Keep it open for an hour (like Perrin's channels did for his army) and watch hundreds of thousands of shadowspawn get slaughtered without so much as a tap. If you think about it, it makes more sense than fireballs - In TOM Rand the most powerful channeler rained down hell for just a few minutes, killed tens of thousands and was completely exhausted afterwards, gateways you can keep open for an hour or two before the exhaustion kicks in and the circle channelers need not be that powerful.Yeah, this is the entire premise behind the deathgate weave. It was "rediscovered" by Rand during the Trolloc attack on the manor in...KoD I think? Plus, in order to open any gateway you need to "know" a place very well beforehand, which isn't very feasible under battlefield conditions.

Enigma
01-25-2011, 03:01 PM
Yeah, this is the entire premise behind the deathgate weave. It was "rediscovered" by Rand during the Trolloc attack on the manor in...KoD I think? Plus, in order to open any gateway you need to "know" a place very well beforehand, which isn't very feasible under battlefield conditions.

Not exactly. You need to know the area in order to be certain that your gateway will open where you want it to, not if it will open. If you don't care where the exit point is going to be knowing the ground is not really a factor.

Terez
01-25-2011, 03:50 PM
Not exactly. You need to know the area in order to be certain that your gateway will open where you want it to, not if it will open. If you don't care where the exit point is going to be knowing the ground is not really a factor.
Not true:

The familiar silvery-blue vertical streaks appeared, spaced out not far from the manor house, ground Rand knew well, rotating into—not openings, but the misty back of a gateway, four paces by four. Rather than remaining open, they rotated shut again, opening and shutting continuously. And rather than remaining fixed, they sped toward the Trollocs. Gateways and yet not. Deathgates. As soon as the Deathgates began to move, Lews Therin knotted the webs, a loose knotting that would hold only for minutes before allowing the whole weave to dissipate, and began spinning again.

Juan
01-25-2011, 07:50 PM
Build a bunch of gateways around the Shadowspawn armies and they'll be trapped there. Say, in the shape of a square. Either they'll have to eat each other or go through the gates. Either way they'll die eventually.

And you can simply tie the gateways off. Or you can't.. depending on what you believe in. There's much debate as to whether you can or not... RJ did say tied off weaves do not drain the strength of channeler.

RJ
The length of time the knot lasts is the choice of whoever makes the knot. It is not strength-dependent. And the knot would continue in existence if the channeler died, at least if the channeler had not set it to unravel in a certain time. Remember, tying off a weave is a way to keep the weave in existence without having to actually channel to maintain it, so once it is tied off, there is really no need for the channeler to continue living for the weave to be maintained.

So going with that quote, although not specific to gateways, I'd be inclined to belief you can.

Enigma
01-26-2011, 12:29 PM
Terez you are right that Rand knew the ground well when he opened the deathgates but that is not the same that he could only open them if he knew the ground.

The quote I am thinking of what when Rand met up with Taim while the Asha'man were holding off the Shaido. It was before the famous "Asha'man kill" scene. From memory Taim said that he recomended staying put behind the barrier until they learned the ground enought to have some certainty of where the gateways would open.

If one needed the death gate to go to a certain place they yes you would need to know the ground but the death gate kills the shadowspawn by forcing them throught the gateway. Where they end up is not really an issue so a gateway to anywhere will do.

On a slight aside its a wonder given the numbers invovled that there were never any comments by anyone of finding dead shadowspawn in random locations. The Seanchan would probably have found it to be some terrible omen

One Armed Gimp
01-26-2011, 01:27 PM
On a slight aside its a wonder given the numbers invovled that there were never any comments by anyone of finding dead shadowspawn in random locations. The Seanchan would probably have found it to be some terrible omen

Its probably because there are no bodies. They literally can not pass through gateways as they are artificial constructs.

Davian93
01-26-2011, 02:31 PM
Its probably because there are no bodies. They literally can not pass through gateways as they are artificial constructs.

Not exactly. Rand stated that they'd die if they passed through it, not that they'd disappear. He basically said there would be groups of dead Trollocs scattered about due to the deathgates.

One Armed Gimp
01-26-2011, 02:57 PM
Not exactly. Rand stated that they'd die if they passed through it, not that they'd disappear. He basically said there would be groups of dead Trollocs scattered about due to the deathgates.

Maybe I am misinterpreting, but I always took what was in the books, and with what RJ said, that being artificial constructs, they would basically cease to exists when trying to pass through. Kind of like balefire.

Davian93
01-26-2011, 03:14 PM
Maybe I am misinterpreting, but I always took what was in the books, and with what RJ said, that being artificial constructs, they would basically cease to exists when trying to pass through. Kind of like balefire.


TITLE: Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 19 - Vows
"Not too many in any one place, though. The destination shifts every time a Deathgate opens." Rand rubbed at his temples. That pain was a warning. He was close to the amount of saidin he could hold without dying or being burnt out. You can't die yet, he told Lews Therin. We have to reach Tarmon Gai'don or the world dies.


and


TITLE: Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 19 - Vows
"A close run thing," Logain muttered. "If this had happened before I arrived. ... A close-run thing." He gave himself a shake and released the Source, turning away from his glassless window. "Did you intend keeping these new weaves for your favorites, like Taim? Those gateways. Where did we send those Trollocs? I just copied your weave exactly." "It doesn't matter where they went," Rand said absently. His attention was focused on Lews Therin. The madman, the bloody voice in his head, drew a little deeper on the Power. Let go, man. "Shadowspawn can't survive passing through a gateway."

Davian93
01-26-2011, 03:16 PM
Even better...


TITLE: Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 19 - Vows
I want to die, Lews Therin said. I want to join Ilyena. If you really wanted to die, why did you kill Trollocs? Rand thought. Why kill that Myrddraal? People will find groups of dead Trollocs and maybe Myrddraal without a mark on them," he said aloud.

One Armed Gimp
01-26-2011, 03:31 PM
Well, consider me corrected. Thanks.

GonzoTheGreat
01-26-2011, 03:47 PM
On a slight aside its a wonder given the numbers invovled that there were never any comments by anyone of finding dead shadowspawn in random locations. The Seanchan would probably have found it to be some terrible omenThe total surface area of Earth is about 510 million square kilometer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth). If we assume that about 51,000 Trollocs were vanished in this way, then that comes to one Trolloc per 10,000 square kilometer. Which, in turn, means a spacing between dead Trollocs of on average 100 kilometers (60 miles). If they are scattered in clumps, as seems reasonable (and as Rand expects would happen), then the average distance would be even greater.

Combine this with the fact that everyone already knows the whole Pattern is acting oddly, and having some dead monsters appear, six days walking away from your farm, would not be something many people would get exited about.

Weird Harold
01-26-2011, 06:10 PM
...From memory Taim said that he recomended staying put behind the barrier until they learned the ground enought to have some certainty of where the gateways would open.

A better reference is the one in aCoS Ch 41 -- Whentraveling line-of-sight or short distances, it isn't necessary to know the ground at all.

Traveling (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/main/true_source/weaves.html#t)

Opening a gateway directly to another place is called Traveling. It requires that one knows their starting point well. (TFoH,Ch6) The ability to open a gateway directly from one location to another. Anyone of sufficient strength and knowledge can Travel. Traveling requires detailed knowledge of the place one is Traveling from. Gaining sufficient knowledge takes several hours. (ACoS,Ch9) However, when Traveling a very short distance almost no knowledge is needed. (ACoS,Ch41) It is not necessary to face the direction that you want to Travel, but for some it helps. (TPoD,Ch21) Male and female Traveling are very different. Rand describes Traveling as punching a hole from one place to another. On her own, Egwene figures out how to Travel to Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh by creating a similarity between a place and its image. (LoC,Ch27)

Traveling seems to be a Bearing-distance sort of navigation. The better you know where you are, the better you can define the direction and distance to a precise point.

It does seem that knowing one's ground does make it easier to open a Traveling Gateway -- as opposed to a Skimming Gateway -- but easier/harder isn't the same as possible/impossible.

Weird Harold
01-26-2011, 06:21 PM
The total surface area of Earth is about 510 million square kilometer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth).

...having some dead monsters appear, six days walking away from your farm, would not be something many people would get exited about.

Considering that roughly two thirds of the Earth's surface (today) is water, I think sailors woul dbe more concerened about monsters falling out of the sky and holing their ships than farmers would be about free fertilizer.

The Immortal One
01-26-2011, 06:23 PM
The total surface area of Earth is about 510 million square kilometer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth). If we assume that about 51,000 Trollocs were vanished in this way, then that comes to one Trolloc per 10,000 square kilometer. Which, in turn, means a spacing between dead Trollocs of on average 100 kilometers (60 miles). If they are scattered in clumps, as seems reasonable (and as Rand expects would happen), then the average distance would be even greater.

Combine this with the fact that everyone already knows the whole Pattern is acting oddly, and having some dead monsters appear, six days walking away from your farm, would not be something many people would get exited about.

That supposes that you can't open Gateways to other places. Like outer space, inside the Earth (underground), on other planets, inside the Sun, perhaps even other worlds (parallels and portal stone worlds). Including even some of these possibilities allows for almost infinite distance between each small group of Shadowspawn.


I'm not sure about that last one, but it seems reasonable to me. You can make gateways to TAR, why not to portal stone worlds? As long as you know they're there. Perhaps they'd be a 'different' type of Gateway, like it's implyed the TAR Gateways are.

Weird Harold
01-26-2011, 06:32 PM
That supposes that you can't open Gateways to other places. Like outer space, inside the Earth (underground), on other planets, inside the Sun, perhaps even other worlds (parallels and portal stone worlds).

I suspect that Deathgates aren't particularly long-ranged. There wouldn't be any reason to expend the effort to cross dimensions or alternate realities when dropping shadowspawn just over the ridge, downwind, to minimize cleanup works just as well.

There's no inherent reason deathgates couldn't cross dimensions or alternate realities, just no reason they would.

There doesn't seem to have been any deathgates opening on the sun or in outerspace -- no bursts of flame or sudden winds noted during the battle.

Terez
01-26-2011, 07:05 PM
RJ said jumping to another planet within the solar system would require a circle of fairly strong channelers, and jumping to another solar system would require a full circle. He said even with planet-hopping and a full decked-out circle intergalactic Traveling is impossible.

The Immortal One
01-28-2011, 11:23 PM
RJ said jumping to another planet within the solar system would require a circle of fairly strong channelers, and jumping to another solar system would require a full circle. He said even with planet-hopping and a full decked-out circle intergalactic Traveling is impossible.

Really? Strange. I would have assumed that the strength needed to make a Gateway would only be dependent on the size of the Gateway - not where you're Travelling to.

Like Asmodean taught Rand, the void and the platform when you're Skimming really have nothing to do with the One Power, only opening the Gateways. Of course Asmodean could just be talking rubbish.



As for no intergalactic Travelling, I guess you'd have to send a spaceship or build a space station half way between galaxies as a stop-over point.

As for the 'impossible' I simply don't believe that (unless there is no One Power in those other galaxies or something). If the Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends could build nice Sa'angreal like the Choedan Kal, and as Nynaeve and Rand could link while using them; then surely with enough time and rescources you could have the largest possible circle of the most powerful channellers available each channelling through the equivalent of a Choedan Kal.

Davian93
01-29-2011, 01:06 AM
Really? Strange. I would have assumed that the strength needed to make a Gateway would only be dependent on the size of the Gateway - not where you're Travelling to.

Like Asmodean taught Rand, the void and the platform when you're Skimming really have nothing to do with the One Power, only opening the Gateways. Of course Asmodean could just be talking rubbish.



As for no intergalactic Travelling, I guess you'd have to send a spaceship or build a space station half way between galaxies as a stop-over point.

As for the 'impossible' I simply don't believe that (unless there is no One Power in those other galaxies or something). If the Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends could build nice Sa'angreal like the Choedan Kal, and as Nynaeve and Rand could link while using them; then surely with enough time and rescources you could have the largest possible circle of the most powerful channellers available each channelling through the equivalent of a Choedan Kal.

In all honestly, it was likely one of those answers that really meant, "I'm not going to nor do I intend to explore that possibility with my story and magic theme". Still, it does somewhat make sense that there would be a distance limit on traveling. Its probably the same type of limitation you would have with the speed of light. It doesnt really affect you for any distance on a single planet but traveling to the moon has a slight delay (for radio communications) and traveling to another planet has a much longer delay obviously.

Marie Curie 7
01-29-2011, 02:05 PM
In all honestly, it was likely one of those answers that really meant, "I'm not going to nor do I intend to explore that possibility with my story and magic theme". Still, it does somewhat make sense that there would be a distance limit on traveling. Its probably the same type of limitation you would have with the speed of light. It doesnt really affect you for any distance on a single planet but traveling to the moon has a slight delay (for radio communications) and traveling to another planet has a much longer delay obviously.

Yeah, I'm sure RJ didn't plan to explore this in any great detail. But travel to other 'worlds in the sky' is mentioned briefly by Moghedien and it's also mentioned in the BWB (that also includes travel via Portal Stone).

Also, the answer RJ gave was part of the Tor Questions of the Week, so he did get to select the questions that he answered, and he would have had time to construct his answer; i.e., it wasn't a spur of the moment response from a signing.

TOR Questions of the Week, August 2004-January 2005 (http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/03/tor-questions-of-week.html)

Week 19 Question: How far can a channeler Travel with the One Power? I know they can Travel anywhere on the globe, and enter Tel'aran'rhiod through a slightly different weave, but is it possible to Travel to other planets, or even planets in other galaxies?

Robert Jordan Answers: Travel to other planets within the solar system would require a circle of fairly strong channelers, though not necessarily as many as thirteen, depending on exactly how far out they wanted to go. Travel to a planet in another solar system would require a rather large circle (of the maximum possible size) of very strong channelers, and there would a limit on how far they could go in one jump. They could planet-hop, of course. Travel to another galaxy would be beyond them even if they began on the planet in this galaxy nearest the target galaxy.

morat'corlm
01-29-2011, 04:28 PM
What if they used Egwene's shortcut of physically entering TAR, shifting to the destination's reflection, and then exiting through a gateway? Or would trying to jump that far cause them to drop dead of coldly inhuman scent?

Weird Harold
01-29-2011, 05:19 PM
What if they used Egwene's shortcut of physically entering TAR, shifting to the destination's reflection, and then exiting through a gateway? Or would trying to jump that far cause them to drop dead of coldly inhuman scent?
They'd probably bump into the Crystal Sphere that "other Galaxies" are just painted on. :p

Or they'd discover that the near edge of the Galaxy they're aiming for is just the far side of our own and closer going back across the Galaxy than across the formless void.

Davian93
01-29-2011, 07:38 PM
Yeah, I'm sure RJ didn't plan to explore this in any great detail. But travel to other 'worlds in the sky' is mentioned briefly by Moghedien and it's also mentioned in the BWB (that also includes travel via Portal Stone).

Also, the answer RJ gave was part of the Tor Questions of the Week, so he did get to select the questions that he answered, and he would have had time to construct his answer; i.e., it wasn't a spur of the moment response from a signing.

Very good point about Moggy...I had forgotten that tidbit.

Though I do think RJ answered that question to make a point about limitations in his universe in some respect.

GonzoTheGreat
01-30-2011, 05:33 AM
What if they used Egwene's shortcut of physically entering TAR, shifting to the destination's reflection, and then exiting through a gateway? Or would trying to jump that far cause them to drop dead of coldly inhuman scent?Egwene would probably practice by going to Venus first.
Since that would kill her before she could ever figure out which problem (the acid rain, the incredibly high pressure, or the temperature high enough to melt lead) to deal with first, this would rather effectively prevent this method from being used.

I doubt we will be that lucky, but we can hope that she will try.

feydrutha
01-30-2011, 11:58 AM
My thoughts when I read Aviendha's vision of the future is that something must have happened to her and Rand, but not necessarily to anyone else. The Aiel are trying to decide what is right for them and how they have to find purpose and direction for themselves as a people. That's why no thought it given to Mat, Perrin, Nynaeve, Egwene, etc. Such people are not Aiel and what they are upto now, if they live, is irrelevant. The Aiel give special consideration to the suggestions of Aviendha's children because they are the children of the Dragon. If Aviendha was still alive, I'm sure she would occupy a position of importance as both a Wise One and the children's mother / the Dragon's widow.


Problem with this theory: in another one of the visions, aviendha`s granddaughter thinks of her grandmother. And Aviendha later comments that the woman was seeing her own face. So if her granddaughter knows her face, she must have lived more than 17 years past the birth of her first children (for the granddaughter to know Aviendha`s face only from a portrait would be a cheap trick IMO).

This is also the reason why the future aviendha has seen is not compatible with a world in which aviendha has seen those visions: if she lives, she would at the very least have made it known far and wide what could happen if they declare war on the seanchan, and the clean chiefs would have at least discussed her opinion.

nameless
01-30-2011, 02:37 PM
Interstellar Travel would require incredibly accurate astronomy, seeing as mistakes on the order of 0.0001 degrees would send you into the vacuum instead of safely onto whatever planet you were aiming for. I got the impression the limits on range of gateways were something RJ thought of two or three books in to explain why no one tried to Travel to the sun and blow up the whole planet during the Breaking.

GonzoTheGreat
01-30-2011, 04:33 PM
To be fair: that wouldn't do all that much damage. Sure, it would rather obliterate the area around the gateway opening on Earth (probably together with the channeler stupid enough to try it), but that would be it. Far less destructive than a high powered balefire bombardment.

Then again, someone with a bit more astronomical knowledge could fairly easily try a variation on that trick, and open a gateway to the nearest neutron star. Put the other end high up in the atmosphere, and you have a source of extremely high powered X-rays blasting large swaths of the countryside.
And if you manage to find a black hole, then you might even manage to get the singularity over to this side. That'd destroy Earth (and the rest of the Solar system, for that matter) in a hurry, if you managed it.

Kimon
01-30-2011, 05:49 PM
To be fair: that wouldn't do all that much damage. Sure, it would rather obliterate the area around the gateway opening on Earth (probably together with the channeler stupid enough to try it), but that would be it. Far less destructive than a high powered balefire bombardment.



It might have a rather detrimental effect on gravity. Or suppose that Rand, rather than having his epiphany on Dragonmount instead opened a gate to near the sun and used the Choedan Kal to try to balefire it.

Marie Curie 7
01-30-2011, 09:25 PM
Interstellar Travel would require incredibly accurate astronomy, seeing as mistakes on the order of 0.0001 degrees would send you into the vacuum instead of safely onto whatever planet you were aiming for. I got the impression the limits on range of gateways were something RJ thought of two or three books in to explain why no one tried to Travel to the sun and blow up the whole planet during the Breaking.

First, RJ said that interstellar Travel was possible. He only ruled out intergalactic Travel.

Second, I understand your point about accuracy, but that notion seems to be contrary to the way that Traveling is supposed to work at its most basic level. In order to Travel, you have to know your starting point very well; you don't need to know your end point very well at all.

GonzoTheGreat
01-31-2011, 05:03 AM
On the other hand: having your end point move in an apparently random direction at hundreds of miles a second may, just possibly, complicate things a bit.

It is possible that all the Sea Folk worries over having their ships damaged is unnecessary, though. That part of it at least should be easy to test.

Weird Harold
01-31-2011, 08:40 AM
On the other hand: having your end point move in an apparently random direction at hundreds of miles a second may, just possibly, complicate things a bit.

It is possible that all the Sea Folk worries over having their ships damaged is unnecessary, though. That part of it at least should be easy to test.
Aviendha's gatway in Far Snows didn't exhibit any effects from a relative velocity between the two points of about 12,000 KPH (Opposite point on the earths surface move at about a thousand miles and hour -- since they move in opposite directions, the sum of their motion is double.)

IIRC, RJ said a correction factor has to be built in to the weave or the gateway won't open.

GonzoTheGreat
01-31-2011, 08:57 AM
If you take the gateway in Cairhien as a reference, then the other gateway did not move. Sure, if you looked at it from outside, then there was clear movement. But if you adopt the (rotating, admittedly) reference frame which makes most sense when sitting in a bedroom, then there was no movement between the two ends of the gateway.

If you make a gateway to another planet, on the other hand, then you will always* have a situation where the distance, and probably the orientation, between the two changes continuously.

Effectively, you would have to make death gates where one of the two sides is stationary (relative to you) and the other is moving rapidly and in a way which is not known with sufficient (or any, more likely) accuracy at all. If you get it wrong, you may very well get hundreds tons of rocks moving at dozens of miles a second into your face when you try to step through. Or you might find that the gateway which was on the surface when you started your step is 60 miles up in the air (what there is of it, at that height) now that've shifted your weight to the foot which should have been planted safely on that other planet.
Having the ground move at dozens of miles in the time it takes you to take one step is not something which is easy to deal with, but it would be a very likely result of trying this.

* In theory, there might be two planets somewhere in the universe that are moving in such a way that this effect does not occur. I would not bet on it, and I most definitely would not want to bet my own life on having found precisely such a situation.

Weird Harold
01-31-2011, 09:19 AM
If you take the gateway in Cairhien as a reference, then the other gateway did not move. Sure, if you looked at it from outside, then there was clear movement.

With the single exception of a gateway from one side of the equator to the same latitude and elevation on the other side of the equator along the same line of longitude, EVERY gateway has to deal with relative motion.

Like I said, RJ's explanation should be in Terez' interview database from back when Traveling was first revealed. The weave for Traveling automatically compensates for relative motion -- including changes in relative position when necessary.

If the compensation isn't included, the gateway will not open.

GonzoTheGreat
01-31-2011, 09:30 AM
With the single exception of a gateway from one side of the equator to the same latitude and elevation on the other side of the equator along the same line of longitude, EVERY gateway has to deal with relative motion.I do not see that. Why should there be any noticeable motion between, say, Caemlyn and Cairhien?
The only thing I can think of is continental plate movements, and they are usually not that fast.

If the compensation isn't included, the gateway will not open.Which would seem to mean that it should have been possible to open a gateway from inside the WT to the back of a to'raken, to retrieve all the captive AS before they could have helped the Seanchan in any way.
Stupid of the AS not to have even tried that, wasn't it?

Weird Harold
01-31-2011, 10:23 AM
I do not see that. Why should there be any noticeable motion between, say, Caemlyn and Cairhien?
The only thing I can think of is continental plate movements, and they are usually not that fast.

As the planet rotates, a point on the equator and a point at a pole travel one rotation in 24 and a fraction hours. The point on the equator travels the full curcumferance of the earth in the same time that the point at the pole travels a matter of inches -- a considerable difference in absolute velocity.

The only way you can avoid a relative motion problem is to Travel to a point that is the same radius (latitude + elevation) from the axis of rotation on the same radial (longitude) -- eg from 45 North to 45 South latitude.

Which would seem to mean that it should have been possible to open a gateway from inside the WT to the back of a to'raken, to retrieve all the captive AS before they could have helped the Seanchan in any way.
Stupid of the AS not to have even tried that, wasn't it?

That kind of relative motion would require a virtuoso of Traveling if it is in fact possible.

It can be demonstrated that normal gateways compensate for relative motion of geographic features, but compensating for motions of things that aren't anchored relative to a geographical feature can't be.

Perhaps the best way to express it is that Traveling links two Places, not two Things or two Creatures.

GonzoTheGreat
01-31-2011, 10:54 AM
As the planet rotates, a point on the equator and a point at a pole travel one rotation in 24 and a fraction hours. The point on the equator travels the full curcumferance of the earth in the same time that the point at the pole travels a matter of inches -- a considerable difference in absolute velocity.And where, pray tell me, can you possibly find an "absolute velocity"?

Suppose that at a certain moment, to get from where you are to where you want to go you would have to move 1,675 miles, thirty four degrees to the south of due east, and 12 degrees below the horizon, so as to get around the curvature of the Earth. (Don't try this at home; at least not without first calculating where you would end up. I made up the numbers on the spot, and I would be a bit surprised if it actually landed you on the surface of the Earth from any reasonable starting position.)
Then, if you did it not now, but 6 hours later, when the planet had gone through one quarter of its daily rotation, you could still use precisely the same displacement I gave above to go to the same spot on Earth. Sure, you would be pointing in another direction relative to the stars, but so what? That's true whenever you Travel, no matter how far or nearby you go.

Perhaps the best way to express it is that Traveling links two Places, not two Things or two Creatures.And why would a spot on the surface of a planet be any more a "Place" than a spot on a to'raken?
Or, if you want some in between cases: how about a spot on:
-the Moon?
-Ceres, the biggest of the asteroids?
-1459 Magnya, another asteroid, this one with a diameter of about 30 kilometers?

Which of those have "Places" on them, and which don't?

Weird Harold
01-31-2011, 11:47 AM
And where, pray tell me, can you possibly find an "absolute velocity"?

In a frame of reference far outside of measly earth-bound relativity. :D If it makes you feel better, define it as "movement relative to the center of the Big Bang."


Suppose that at a certain moment, to get from where you are to where you want to go you would have to move 1,675 miles, thirty four degrees to the south of due east, and 12 degrees below the horizon, so as to get around the curvature of the Earth.

You relative positions wouldn't change, but you would always have a relative motion problem -- perhpas you might understand it as a relative intertia problem better.

If you disconnect from the surface and gravity of the earth, you would continue in a straight line at a tangent to the earth's surface because of your intertia. If you transfer to a different spot on the globe, your inertia is still going to send you on the same path relative to the earth's orbit even though everything else at your new location would fly off at a different angle to the earth's orbit because their intertia is at a tangent to a different radial from the earth's axis.


And why would a spot on the surface of a planet be any more a "Place" than a spot on a to'raken?

Where do I find a map of the geographical features of a to'raken? As far as I know, to'raken don't have a "geography."

You seem to ignore the point that normal gateways can be demonstrated to open relative to geographic features -- "A place one could travel to by conventional means."

They cannot be demonstrated to open in relation to objects or creatures; not even deathgates or Sammael's "Fool boxes."

Deathgates wouldn't work if they were referenced relative to their targets because they would stay the same distance from their targets and never connect.

Sammael opened gateways next to the "fool boxes" but they weren't referenced relative to the boxes, they were referenced to the location of the boxes.

Perhaps on a deeper level, gateways are all referenced to the largest center of gravity in the vicinity rather than surface features, but that would just make it even more difficult to target a gateway relative to a "place" on a moving to-raken, which has a very small center-of-gravity as compared to the Earth or Solar system.

We have seen Deathgates move relative to geographic features -- i.e. the ground -- so a moving gateway destination should theoretically be possible, but I still can't see any way to reference it relative to anything except the Earth, some portion thereof, or some equally massive anchor such as a star, planet or asteroid.

GonzoTheGreat
01-31-2011, 12:10 PM
In a frame of reference far outside of measly earth-bound relativity. :D If it makes you feel better, define it as "movement relative to the center of the Big Bang."That may make me happy, but it does not make any sense at all. :p
The Big Bang did not have a center. Space itself came out of it.

You relative positions wouldn't change, but you would always have a relative motion problem -- perhpas you might understand it as a relative intertia problem better.

If you disconnect from the surface and gravity of the earth, you would continue in a straight line at a tangent to the earth's surface because of your intertia. If you transfer to a different spot on the globe, your inertia is still going to send you on the same path relative to the earth's orbit even though everything else at your new location would fly off at a different angle to the earth's orbit because their intertia is at a tangent to a different radial from the earth's axis.Fine. I'll do a simple calculation. Say that you move from more or less Madrid (at 40 degrees North) to Oslo (at 60 degrees North). This could be more or less equivalent to somewhere in Illian to somewhere in the Borderlands, which we know can be done with no problem.

At Madrid, the circumference is 40,000 km times cos(40), which comes to about 30,600 km, which means that there you have a speed of a bit over 1,275 km per hour, or just a bit more than the speed of sound.
In Oslo, the circumference is 40,000 km times cos(60), which is 20,000 km. That means that your rotational speed there is 833 km per hour.

So if you were right, then if you stepped from Illian to the Borderlands, you would get flattened by slamming into any available scenery at over 400 km per hour. Peculiarly enough, we've never heard that happening to anyone.

Compared to that, I would say that the (at most) 100 km per hour a to'raken might possibly achieve should not be a significant problem.

Where do I find a map of the geographical features of a to'raken? As far as I know, to'raken don't have a "geography."You don't need to know your destination, only your own position, remember?
That's one of the neat features of Traveling instead of Skimming.

They cannot be demonstrated to open in relation to objects or creatures; not even deathgates or Sammael's "Fool boxes."Bah!
No one ever tried. So obviously, the reason why they can't do it is merely the fact that they haven't bothered to do this.

Perhaps on a deeper level, gateways are all referenced to the largest center of gravity in the vicinity rather than surface features, but that would just make it even more difficult to target a gateway relative to a "place" on a moving to-raken, which has a very small center-of-gravity as compared to the Earth or Solar system.Or perhaps they operate in yet another way. All we know is that no one has actually tried anything like this.

We have seen Deathgates move relative to geographic features -- i.e. the ground -- so a moving gateway destination should theoretically be possible, but I still can't see any way to reference it relative to anything except the Earth, some portion thereof, or some equally massive anchor such as a star, planet or asteroid.Your ignorance is not necessarily proof that it can't be done. I think. Could be that I'm just ignorant of the awesomeness of your ignorance, of course.

Weird Harold
01-31-2011, 12:37 PM
So if you were right, then if you stepped from Illian to the Borderlands, you would get flattened by slamming into any available scenery at over 400 km per hour. Peculiarly enough, we've never heard that happening to anyone.

Go dig in the interview database and pick nits with RJs explanation that the weave for Traveling includes automatic compensation for relative motion problems.

The compensation is the reason people DON'T slam into the scenery at 400KPH. Your math is the reason that the compensation is required.

GonzoTheGreat
01-31-2011, 01:06 PM
Which reraises the question: why shouldn't it also work on other moving targets?

Terez
01-31-2011, 01:21 PM
Hey Gonzo, since you're being mathy, what is the area of the Black Tower? Toveine says the wall runs 8 miles (and it seems to be complete in its perimeter if not in height), and Elayne says that Taim has walled in 4 miles of Andor. Does that make sense?

In other words, is it possible to make a closed (two-dimensional) perimeter with an area larger than that of a circle?

Shellin
01-31-2011, 01:29 PM
I've always just kind of assumed that the Black Tower grounds were more or less a square area. If each side of the square were 2 miles then that would give 8 miles of wall and 4 square miles of total area which seems to fit with how I interpret what Elayne and Toveine were saying.

Weird Harold
01-31-2011, 02:14 PM
Which reraises the question: why shouldn't it also work on other moving targets?
because.
other.
moving.
targets.
are.
NOT.
Places.
you.
can.
travel.
to.
by.
other.
slower.
means.

GonzoTheGreat
01-31-2011, 04:16 PM
Hey Gonzo, since you're being mathy, what is the area of the Black Tower? Toveine says the wall runs 8 miles (and it seems to be complete in its perimeter if not in height), and Elayne says that Taim has walled in 4 miles of Andor. Does that make sense?This one has already been answered by Shellin.

In other words, is it possible to make a closed (two-dimensional) perimeter with an area larger than that of a circle?Sort of. You need to dig a pit, or make a hill, and then consider the surface of it a two-dimensional area. This will have a larger surface area than a flat circle with the same circumference.

A classic real world conundrum of this type is: "What is the surface area of Switzerland?"
The problem then is whether you should count the area as seen from space, as though it is completely flat, or measure the mountainsides. In some cases, this can make a difference of a factor two or more.

I think that you meant the point which Shellin dealt with, but I happen to consider this one more interesting. I also sort of like the idea of Taim digging a ten mile deep hole in order to triple the land area under his control, only to discover afterwards that the thing is totally useless for any practical applications.

because.
other.
moving.
targets.
are.
NOT.
Places.
you.
can.
travel.
to.
by.
other.
slower.
means.You could travel to the back of a to'raken by overtaking it with a raken and then skydiving from one to the other. Not a very safe method, perhaps, but definitely one that is in theory possible.
And, as even Elayne, Nynaeve and Aviendha have demonstrated: you can travel to a boat by using another boat.

So I do not see why you would raise this point, as it is not an objection to my suggestion at all.

1Powerslave
01-31-2011, 07:34 PM
Go dig in the interview database and pick nits with RJs explanation that the weave for Traveling includes automatic compensation for relative motion problems.

The compensation is the reason people DON'T slam into the scenery at 400KPH. Your math is the reason that the compensation is required.
I'm tempted to give you A in physics and F in metaphysics, WH. But instead I have to ask you what coordinate system you are using and why? The center of the universe as the origin? The point where the gateway is woven? If you use center of gravity in Randland as origin you wouldn't have this "motion problem".

Marie Curie 7
02-02-2011, 12:13 AM
Go dig in the interview database and pick nits with RJs explanation that the weave for Traveling includes automatic compensation for relative motion problems.

There is no such quote in the Interview Database. If it ever existed, it has since been lost in the mists of time.


On the other hand: having your end point move in an apparently random direction at hundreds of miles a second may, just possibly, complicate things a bit.

Yeah, but again RJ said it was possible. Then again, he obviously didn't explain how it worked. If someone had ever asked, I expect that he would have said something similar to what he said when someone asked about making cuendillar: ;)

AOL Chat #1 - 27 June 1996

LewsTher1 asks: What was the process through which cuendillar was made?

RJ: Entirely too complex for me to go into here. If there's anyone out there who can channel on the level of a Forsaken I would be happy to enter into a correspondence with them on the making of cuendillar. :)

Weird Harold
02-02-2011, 12:54 AM
I'm tempted to give you A in physics and F in metaphysics, WH. But instead I have to ask you what coordinate system you are using and why?

Any coordinate system that allows a simultaneous observation/measurement of both sided of the globe at once?

Consider a merry-go-round or carousel -- what direction and speed are riders on opposite ends of a diameter of the device going? What happens if one rider is suddenly transfered to the other side without changing speed, intertia, direction, etc of his original momentum? What frame of reference allows you to seen the difference in motion/inertia/momentum?

Marie, the RJ answer probably didn't use the exact wording I did -- it was in the answer to a question about Aviendha's gateway in Far Snows.

GonzoTheGreat
02-02-2011, 05:19 AM
Marie, the RJ answer probably didn't use the exact wording I did -- it was in the answer to a question about Aviendha's gateway in Far Snows.Quotes or it didn't happen.

You've been dancing around this one for a while now. Simply give the actual quote, so that we can discuss that.
Until then, I'll simply declare that your interpretation is wrong. That'll solve it for now, won't it? :D

1Powerslave
02-02-2011, 06:39 AM
Any coordinate system that allows a simultaneous observation/measurement of both sided of the globe at once?

Consider a merry-go-round or carousel -- what direction and speed are riders on opposite ends of a diameter of the device going? What happens if one rider is suddenly transfered to the other side without changing speed, intertia, direction, etc of his original momentum? What frame of reference allows you to seen the difference in motion/inertia/momentum?

Marie, the RJ answer probably didn't use the exact wording I did -- it was in the answer to a question about Aviendha's gateway in Far Snows.
It would help if you could find the quote. As it is I've assumed, from reading the books, that a gateway is attached to the "space" the person weaving the gateway occupies. No matter if that space, viewed from a fixed point in the universe, actually moves when the earth rotates around the sun and its own axis. If that space moves, then so does weaves woven it. With your reasoning every weave would need to have built in compensation to avoid it flying about due to said rotations. In other words I believe that a weave is always relative to the channeler. Much like his arm is; his hand; his sword.

A gateway woven from earth to another spot on earth would then, using above mentioned logic have no varying velocity problems. The distance is always the same. Weaving a gateway to something that, relative to the channeler, moves on the other hand, such as another planet or the back of a to'raken, would require more skill I'd think. Here the distance is changing, you deal with varying velocity.

A thing to consider is that to Travel you need to know your place of origin very well. I think this fact also might play into how I interpret this. It sounds like you put the origin of your coordinate system where you are at, and then aim a vector to where you want to go.

GonzoTheGreat
02-02-2011, 06:50 AM
The only quote that I could find that is "sufficiently relevant" is this:
Lord of Chaos book tour Santa Monica 29 October 1994 - Justin Howell reporting (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.arts.sf.written.robert-jordan/msg/bba02e5d5324ea40)

When I asked about the hemisphere of the Seanchan continent, RJ said that it had parts in both the northern and southern hemispheres, but that Rand and Aviendha Traveled to a part in the southern hemisphere.Twisting that to have it say that there's an inbuilt impulse modification mechanism which wouldn't work for boats and bats is a bit of a stretch, though.

Weird Harold
02-02-2011, 10:44 AM
[/QUOTE]As it is I've assumed, from reading the books, that a gateway is attached to the "space" the person weaving the gateway occupies. No matter if that space, viewed from a fixed point in the universe, actually moves when the earth rotates around the sun and its own axis. If that space moves, then so does weaves woven it. With your reasoning every weave would need to have built in compensation to avoid it flying about due to said rotations. In other words I believe that a weave is always relative to the channeler. Much like his arm is; his hand; his sword.

It is not the 'exit' of the gateway that is the problem -- it stays fixed relative to the Channeler and the "space" it opened into. The problem is the inertia and momentum on either side of the gateway.

You can stand on a carousel and point steadily at the rider directly opposite you, but you can't throw something to them without compensating for the motion of the carousel.

You can connect opposite sides with a tube, but you still can't push something through the tube without it feeling the effects of relative intertia -- imagine compressing that tube down to a length of Nil yet spanning the same changes of inertia required to land safely on the opposite side; anything passing through that Nil-length tube would experience the same total change in inertia/momentum/motion that a object sent down the full-length tube would, but without the gradual, analog, change passage over the true distance allows.

People aren't smeared over the landscape when they travel, so the Weave for Traveling has to compensate for that change in forces acting on the traveler.


A thing to consider is that to Travel you need to know your place of origin very well. I think this fact also might play into how I interpret this. It sounds like you put the origin of your coordinate system where you are at, and then aim a vector to where you want to go.

The only coordinate system that even comes close to Traveling as described is Radial coordinates -- eg bearing plus distance. That isn't precisely how placement of the exit point is managed, but it is functionally similar. The more precisely you know where you are, the more precisly you can point to your destination, but you do have to define where you're going somehow. BRG/Dist works as a loose analogy.

The thing is, though, it doesn't matter how the destination is defined/described, once the gateway is established, the exit side of the gateway is as firmly fixed relative to something in its environment as the entry side is fixed to the Place the Channeler has to know well enough to open a precise gateway.

IF a gateway exit can be placed relative to something small -- say a to'raken's left eye or a buckle on its harness -- then a gateway to a moving target would be plausible.

I don't think something small or something moving can be used to anchor the exit of a gateway any more than a Channeler can memorize their wagon seat well enough to open a small gateway to the driver's seat so they don't have to shout.

To Travel, it is necessary to Know the Ground, or Know Your Starting Point. That implies that the gateway is referenced or anchored to the Ground/Place rather than the Channeler. It doesn't seem logical to me that the exit of the gateway would or could be referenced to something other than "ground" or "place."

The Channeler may not have to know the Exit point as precisely as the Origin, but the definition/description of where to go has to be of the same type.

Consider Egwene's description of Saidar Traveling:

She thought the way would be to create – a similarity seemed the only way to describe it – a similarity between the real world and its reflection in the World of Dreams. That should make a place where it was possible to simply step from one to the other.

Note, this is, AFAIK the only description the mechanism of Saidar Traveling even though it is specific to entering T'A'R.

If Saidar requires making the Origin and Destination "absolutely similar" it must be orders of magnitude more difficult to make a flying to'raken "similar" to a fenced-off plot of bare ground than it is to make a vacant room in Salidar "similar" to that same patch of bare ground.

GonzoTheGreat
02-02-2011, 11:26 AM
Note, this is, AFAIK the only description the mechanism of Saidar Traveling even though it is specific to entering T'A'R.I believe that you are right.

About your knowledge, at least. :D
Egwene moved closer to Moghedien. The other woman was taller, but she cowered back against the table, knocking over the winecups on their tray and rocking the pitcher. Egwene made her voice cold; it did not have far to go. "The day I detect one lie out of you is the day I execute you myself. Now. I have considered traveling from one place to another by boring a hole, so to speak, from here to there. A hole through the Pattern, so there’s no distance between one end and the other. How well will that work?"
"Not at all, for you or any woman," Moghedien said, breathless and quick. The fear that boiled inside was plain on her face now. "That is how men Travel." The capital was plain; she was speaking of one of the lost Talents. "If you try, you will be sucked into... I don’t know what it is. The space between the threads of the Pattern, maybe. I don’t think you would live very long. I know you would never come back."
"Traveling," Nynaeve muttered disgustedly. "We never thought of Traveling!"
"No, we didn’t." Elayne sounded no more pleased with herself. "I wonder what else we never thought of."
Egwene ignored them. "Then how?" she asked softly. A quiet voice was always better than shouting.
Moghedien flinched as though she had shouted anyway. "You make the two places in the Pattern identical. I can show you how. It takes a little effort, because of the... the necklace, but I can – "Fairly clear (though somewhat summary) descriptions of both OP methods of Traveling. Neither mentions anything at all about differential movement or anything like it.

Weird Harold
02-02-2011, 11:53 AM
I believe that you are right.

About your knowledge, at least. :D

Thanks for that Quote.

Neither mentions anything at all about differential movement or anything like it.

That would be because the weave magically compensates for relative motion. :rolleyes:

The fact that the Channeler doesn't have to think about relative motion effects doesn't mean that they don't exist and don't affect the strength and/or skill required to open any particular gateway.

If relative motion doesn't affect the strength and/or skill required, why does it require a circle of channelers for interplanetary travel? What is different about interplanetary travel if it isn't relative motion? (Terrestrial distances don't seem to be any sort of limiting factor but moving targets, like ships, seem to be.)

GonzoTheGreat
02-02-2011, 12:09 PM
That would be because the weave magically compensates for relative motion. :rolleyes:Could you please provide an actual quote supporting the assertion that this is actually happening?

If relative motion doesn't affect the strength and/or skill required, why does it require a circle of channelers for interplanetary travel? What is different about interplanetary travel if it isn't relative motion? (Terrestrial distances don't seem to be any sort of limiting factor but moving targets, like ships, seem to be.)A fairly simple reason would be that with a circle, you get not only added strength (which may be irrelevant here), but also added precision.

So maybe that weirdly talented Ashaman who can't do anything other than make gateways could actually do interstellar travel on his own. Not because of his strength, but because of his precision.

Weird Harold
02-02-2011, 12:54 PM
Could you please provide an actual quote supporting the assertion that this is actually happening?

So your contention is that conservation of momentum doesn't apply to the WOT?

An object can be transfered from a surface traveling at orbitial velocity plus surface rotation can be transfered to a surface traveling orbital velocity minus surface rotation without any compensation for the effects of momentum and intertia?

Whether RJ's comment can be found or not, logic should be sufficient to show that compensation does happen.

GonzoTheGreat
02-02-2011, 01:23 PM
Yes, it happens.

My contention is that we have no proof, beyond unsubstantiated belief (from both characters in the books and you, apparently) that the problem would not be automatically corrected for if one were to travel to a moving something of less than planetary dimensions.

We know that momentum need not be a problem. It is not a problem when moving from one part of the globe to another.
We know that gateways can move. Deathgates are proof of that.
We even know that when dealing with moving gateways, the momentum problem can be taken care of automatically. Interplanetary travel is proof of that.
We do not, as far as I know, have any reason to assume that with moving gateways on a planetary surface the problem would not be solved.

bgrishinko
02-03-2011, 06:52 PM
I don't think something small or something moving can be used to anchor the exit of a gateway any more than a Channeler can memorize their wagon seat well enough to open a small gateway to the driver's seat so they don't have to shout.

To Travel, it is necessary to Know the Ground, or Know Your Starting Point. That implies that the gateway is referenced or anchored to the Ground/Place rather than the Channeler. It doesn't seem logical to me that the exit of the gateway would or could be referenced to something other than "ground" or "place."

The Channeler may not have to know the Exit point as precisely as the Origin, but the definition/description of where to go has to be of the same type.



I think this is the key here. According to the theory of relativity, moving objects speed are relevant to the speed of the origin. When you are traveling on a plane that is traveling hundreds of miles per hour and throw a ball, it is still easy. There is no compensating for the movement of the plane. The ball moves how you'd expect as if you were standing on the ground.

For the gateway and Traveling, it makes sense that it would anchor itself after getting to know the lay of the land. Any other piece of land would, by the rotation of the planet, be moving at the same speed. The weaver, using the OP, must have an understanding of the lay of the land or his weaves won't snap into place.

Seems this would make interplanetary travel impossible. By the physics of space time, this would then begin to be time travel as well. It's all very confusing.

When I first read the series, I pictured waygates like the portals in the game Portal. I know they aren't really round like that, and don't have a shiny border. But I pictured them like that either way, and that was years before the game existed.

It's not a perfect analogy, but I'd think that the waygates would work similarly except without needed it be connected to a physical object, but to the lay of the land. Likewise, I'd imagine that one of those short distance waygates that don't require knowing the land could be used to create a path, using a local anchor of the boat, from the front of a boat to the back.

Weird Harold
02-03-2011, 07:52 PM
When you are traveling on a plane that is traveling hundreds of miles per hour and throw a ball, it is still easy. There is no compensating for the movement of the plane.

Actually if the plane is wide enough -- a DC-10 or C5A, or C130 -- there is a noticeable curve aft when something is tossed from one side to another.

But an aircraft flying in a straight line doesn't have the same dynamics as going from one side of a rotating object to the other -- like trying to play catch on a carousel, for example.

Any other piece of land would, by the rotation of the planet, be moving at the same speed.

The surface of the planet at any given latitude is moving the same speed, but not in the same direction -- and the planet is moving along a curved course at orbital velocity, too.

It's not a perfect analogy, but I'd think that the waygates would work similarly except without needed it be connected to a physical object, but to the lay of the land.

Do you mean Gateways rather than Waygates? Waygates are the fixed doors into the Ways and not (obviously) related to Traveling Gateways.

"Connected to the lay of the land" is a fair description of why I don't think to'raken chasing gateways are feasible -- they're probably theoretically possible, but extraordinarily difficult. The harder it is to describe a doorway's position "connected to the lay of the land" the more difficult it is to open a gateway.

Likewise, I'd imagine that one of those short distance waygates that don't require knowing the land could be used to create a path, using a local anchor of the boat, from the front of a boat to the back.

I'd be surprised if such a gateway could be held open for long in that circumstance. A truer test of how gateways compensate for movement would be to gate from one ship to another with a line-of-sight gateway.

SPECULATION: Gateways deal with different energy vectors, AKA "relative movement," issues by diverting damaging energy/inertia into/from the reference points that define the Origin and Exit locations of the Gateway. The greater the energy/inertial difference, the more massive the anchor/reference points need to be.

bgrishinko
02-03-2011, 08:14 PM
Do you mean Gateways rather than Waygates? Waygates are the fixed doors into the Ways and not (obviously) related to Traveling Gateways.


Yeah, that was a slip of the keyboard. Although that makes me wonder about the physics there as well. I wonder if the Waygate is similar to the TAR Gateway except as a permanent hole to the grown Ways. Like an immovable Gateway surrounded by a Ter'angreal doorway... hmm. This has probably been discussed elsewhere though.


I'd be surprised if such a gateway could be held open for long in that circumstance. A truer test of how gateways compensate for movement would be to gate from one ship to another with a line-of-sight gateway.


True, but I think this wouldn't establish the anchoring effect. This seems like it would be a better test of whether the ends of the Gateway can move separately. I highly doubt this though, as both ends would need to be anchored separately. Maybe it would be possible, but I'd think the weave might be different. (This is merely speculation... but... ) You'd probably have to weave each one somehow. Seems like for this to work, that the channeler would need to be familiar with both ends, but it is made clear that it is counter-intuitive and that the destination doesn't need to be known.


SPECULATION: Gateways deal with different energy vectors, AKA "relative movement," issues by diverting damaging energy/inertia into/from the reference points that define the Origin and Exit locations of the Gateway. The greater the energy/inertial difference, the more massive the anchor/reference points need to be.

Makes sense to me. If it is indeed a vector, then it would be like Origin Gate is anchored to local terrain, then the Exit gate would be tied to the Origin gate.

Weird Harold
02-03-2011, 10:04 PM
I wonder if the Waygate is similar to the TAR Gateway ... This has probably been discussed elsewhere though.

It has indeed been discussed before; the consensus seems to be that the Ways exist in the same space as Skimming platforms do -- which would make Waygates related to Skimming Gates.

True, but I think this wouldn't establish the anchoring effect.

It would establish whether an object, like a ship or to'raken, could be the anchor for either end.

This seems like it would be a better test of whether the ends of the Gateway can move separately. I highly doubt this though, as both ends would need to be anchored separately.

Both ends of a gateway do pretty much have to be anchored separately; especially since interplanetary Traveling has been explicitly stated as possible without reference to different weaves. <shrugs> It wouldn't surprise me to find that not all gateways are created equal, even beyond the Saidar/Saidin differences.

Perhaps "anchored" is the wrong word, but the exit has to be defined in relation to the landscape of the destination, and that's the point that a Brg/Dist navigation analogy fails; precision placement in a specific room or close to a wall requires some knowledge beyond direction and distance. Unfortunately, the books are decidely unspecific on how the destination placement is refined.

1Powerslave
02-04-2011, 01:53 PM
It is not the 'exit' of the gateway that is the problem -- it stays fixed relative to the Channeler and the "space" it opened into. The problem is the inertia and momentum on either side of the gateway.

You can stand on a carousel and point steadily at the rider directly opposite you, but you can't throw something to them without compensating for the motion of the carousel.
I guess I just see it as two closed systems or "boxes" for either end of the gateway. Where the only force affecting a person there is gravity. Everything else is relative to the ground and so equal to zero.

Aulis Vaara
02-05-2011, 08:18 PM
I haven't read all the latest posts, but Gateways work via Tel'aran'rhiod, correct? Well then, how would you find a specific (to')raken or ship in Tel'aran'rhiod?

If I remember correctly, there are no domesticated animals there (maybe even no animals other than wolves? not sure). On top of that, anything that frequently changes place in the real world 'shifts' in the Dream and is thus hard to find or to pinpoint. Maybe if the need were great enough you'd manage, but otherwise, you're screwed.

So yeah... that's why Gateways don't work on moving targets.

bgrishinko
02-05-2011, 08:31 PM
You know... for all our talks of physics and grounding and whatnot...What Aulis says makes most sense.

Weird Harold
02-05-2011, 11:11 PM
I haven't read all the latest posts, but Gateways work via Tel'aran'rhiod, correct? Well then, how would you find a specific (to')raken or ship in Tel'aran'rhiod?

I'm not sure that they work "via Tel'aran'rhiod" but Tel'aran'rhiod certainly can be used to interfere with gateways. There's no obvious connection between the way gateways are described as working and Tel'aran'rhiod.


Still, you have a very good point gateways do seem to only open where there is a reflection in Tel'aran'rhiod.

wireguy
02-06-2011, 01:39 AM
Actually if the plane is wide enough -- a DC-10 or C5A, or C130 -- there is a noticeable curve aft when something is tossed from one side to another.

But an aircraft flying in a straight line doesn't have the same dynamics as going from one side of a rotating object to the other -- like trying to play catch on a carousel, for example.

There is a difference and in the case of a flying aircraft, regardless of size, there should be no aft curve so long as there is no wind resistance pushing toward the rear of the craft. The plane in this example would be an effective frame of reference and thus not affected by the velocity of the plane in respect to the surface of the planet.

The carousel example is very much different than the plane. There is one primary force that is affecting an object in flight on a carousel that is trivial on an airplane flying in a straight line; centripetal. The rotational motion is it's own force thus needs to be compensated for even though the distance between the source and destination is not changing.

The surface of the planet at any given latitude is moving the same speed, but not in the same direction -- and the planet is moving along a curved course at orbital velocity, too.

Not true. While the angular velocity of the planets rotation is constant the linear velocity of the surface is dependent on the distance from the axis of spin. At either of the rotational poles the linear velocity in respect to the rotation of the planet will be near zero while at the equator it will be the radius of the planet times the angular velocity.

Aulis Vaara
02-06-2011, 06:38 AM
There's no obvious connection between the way gateways are described as working and Tel'aran'rhiod.

Except for the way Egwene rediscovered travelling, you mean.

The fact that Tel'aran'rhiod can be used to interfere with Gateways also speaks volumes, how can something interfere with a Gateway if it is completely unrelated?

It's the only explanation that seems to fit with everything we've learned of Gateways, so far. Plus, Tel'aran'rhiod could take care of the compensation for the difference in momentum and angular momentum.

The Immortal One
02-06-2011, 07:06 AM
Except for the way Egwene rediscovered travelling, you mean.

Well, for all we know it is simply a coincidence - that Travelling to TAR is similar to Travelling to anywhere else. It makes sense really.

Terez
02-06-2011, 07:07 AM
I got the feeling Egwene worked out Traveling via Tel'aran'rhiod because it was easier for her to understand it that way, as a Dreamwalker. I don't think there is really any evidence that the normal Traveling weave functions via Tel'aran'rhiod.

1Powerslave
02-06-2011, 08:22 AM
TAR does seem like an easy way to explain it. Perhaps. We have to account for the magic of the thing somewhere. "folding the pattern and boring a hole" and "making src and dst the same", to me implies that there is no need for other compensation (or maybe it is the compensation), in both cases it sounds like your fixing the two areas in place.

Weird Harold
02-06-2011, 10:51 AM
...there should be no aft curve ...

Yet personal experience of throwing stuff across the width of a C-130 in flight provides empirical avidence that there IS a noticeable curve aft. (The "stuff" in question was sandwiches and fruit from box lunches being traded.)

linear velocity of the surface is dependent on the distance from the axis of spin.

That's what "at any given latitute" means. Technically it should be "at any given latitude and elevation" or "at any given latitude at MSL."

GonzoTheGreat
02-06-2011, 12:21 PM
Yet personal experience of throwing stuff across the width of a C-130 in flight provides empirical avidence that there IS a noticeable curve aft. (The "stuff" in question was sandwiches and fruit from box lunches being traded.)Could be a result of air flow, though.

Would make more sense than the assumption that, using air craft food, you uncovered conclusive evidence that Einstein* was wrong after all.

* And Galileo Galilei (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galilean_transformation), for that matter.

Juan
02-06-2011, 12:28 PM
How about this?

It's magic.

Think about it. It's not like a gateways are something natural. Therefore they don't necessarily need a rational explanation other than "you open a gateway by channeling and this is what it looks like, and it takes you to another place. Oh and you need to know your start point." Great. All I needed to know. No further explanation involving physics and all that needed. ;)

GonzoTheGreat
02-06-2011, 12:40 PM
Nah, that would never work.

wireguy
02-06-2011, 01:12 PM
Yet personal experience of throwing stuff across the width of a C-130 in flight provides empirical avidence that there IS a noticeable curve aft. (The "stuff" in question was sandwiches and fruit from box lunches being traded.)



That's what "at any given latitute" means. Technically it should be "at any given latitude and elevation" or "at any given latitude at MSL."


If the flight is level and there is no movement of atmosphere within the plane there will be no curve to the tossed object in relation to the plane itself. This is a basic physics concept; without an outside force acting upon it there will be no change in direction. The frame of reference holds true until you start getting close to the speed of light, but at that point classic physics starts breaking down and is far outside the realm of a C130's ability. I misread the given latitude statement. Anyone on the same line of latitude is traveling the same linear speed, though the velocity will be slightly different because of the direction of travel will have changed.

Weird Harold
02-06-2011, 04:20 PM
This is a basic physics concept; without an outside force acting upon it there will be no change in direction.

I have no idea what the "outside force" is, I just know that the effect exists. It is not a very big effect, only an inch or so at most.

GonzoTheGreat
02-06-2011, 04:58 PM
I have no idea what the "outside force" is, I just know that the effect exists. It is not a very big effect, only an inch or so at most.Which could very well be produced by the air flow in the plane.

So, we have two options:
1. It is a simple case of stuff being blown away by some wind.
2. All of physics is totally wrong, no experiments or observations since the time of (at best) Tycho Brahe are dependable, apart from something you once saw tossing a ham sandwich to some other kid.

Me, I'm guessing on option 1. I would want to have some more support before accepting that option 2 was a reasonable conclusion.

Terez
02-06-2011, 05:40 PM
How about this?

It's magic.
RJ specifically said that he didn't feel that was the way to go about writing fantasy. He probably felt that too many authors took advantage of the 'not real' aspect of fantasy to create magic systems lacking any sort of laws (which is, of course, a great deal easier). He compared writing fantasy to Schrödinger's Cat.

Think about it.In general I would advise against using condescending phrases like this to people who put a great deal more thought into WoT than you.

bgrishinko
02-06-2011, 05:48 PM
You make me smile Terez.

Saying "It's magic," even if it were true (which it isn't as Terez mentions) that would be boring. There would be nothing for us to talk and think about. It would defeat the thousands of pages that intricately describe the limitations and advantages of the One Power. Also, RJ had a degree in Physics... so I'm sure he would have loved this discussion. :)

Aulis Vaara
02-06-2011, 05:53 PM
If the flight is level and there is no movement of atmosphere within the plane there will be no curve to the tossed object in relation to the plane itself.

The flight itself is an orbit. Which means that acceleration IS*involved. I'm not sure if that explains the effect or not, I'm not a physicist, but it's the first thing that jumped into my mind.

Madgod
02-06-2011, 11:10 PM
The flight itself is an orbit. Which means that acceleration IS*involved. I'm not sure if that explains the effect or not, I'm not a physicist, but it's the first thing that jumped into my mind.

Well, depending on how the plane flying there won't be any acceleration on the plane at all, with all forces canceling each other out. That being said, assuming the plane is properly sealed, which seems reasonable, and forces acting on the plane will not effect the flight of a ball. Therefore, any perturbation towards the aft would have to come from airflow leaking into the aircraft itself. If that makes no sense, I'm blaming me being tired.
That all being said, from what I understand of physics of rotating bodies the Gateways have to account for acceleration and momentum of the traveler. Liking the idea that T'A'R has something to do with traveling, I'm going to guess that there is something about that instantaneous entry/exit that helps nullify any bad things from happening.

da'caballien
02-07-2011, 03:01 AM
I always had a feeling TAR was connected to Traveling. Now I can voice my opinion!

I think that TAR permanence is related to being able to use it as a Traveling anchor. And that TAR somehow selectively chooses what has momentum and what doesn't when Traveling. Either that, or the OP is somehow connected to human psychology in a way that it changes physics to make a channeler's image of reality real. As in, "if it looks like it's moving, it's moving. if it's looks like it's still, it's still"

GonzoTheGreat
02-07-2011, 05:27 AM
And where would the differential motion come into effect?

Let's use this description of a gateway system:
ABCD

Here A is the starting point, say Rand's bedroom in Cairhien.
D is the target point, say the snowy area in Seanchan.
B is the gateway itself in Cairhien.
C is the gateway in Seanchan.

Now, we know from the descriptions that B and C are actually the same. Not just similar, but the same. So we can replace them with E. Which reduces the whole system to:
AED

Now, we also now that A and B seamlessly fit together. And the same with D and C, of course.
So nowhere in the system is there any discontinuity at all.

Which brings up the question: where would that discontinuity in speed come from anyway?

Of course, it is obvious (to me, at least, and presumably to RJ too) that gateways do not obey conservation laws. But that actually makes this whole discussion a trivial one: there is no need to worry about conservation of momentum, as that law does not apply anyway.

bgrishinko
02-07-2011, 12:49 PM
Like this, but with no tunnel between the two points :)

http://static.howstuffworks.com/gif/time-travel-wormhole1.jpg

wireguy
02-07-2011, 10:45 PM
The flight itself is an orbit. Which means that acceleration IS*involved. I'm not sure if that explains the effect or not, I'm not a physicist, but it's the first thing that jumped into my mind.

Acceleration is ALWAYS involved; it's called gravity. My statement is based on the assumption that the craft is in straight level flight and at a constant speed. Being in a gravitational orbit will create much different effects inside the frame of reference but those effects are trivial at best in this example.

Anyways, I was kind of curious about the whole world of dreams vs alternate planes of reality. Does each plane of reality have it's own T'A'R? If so I could see traveling being dependent on. I like the picture of curved space above also. Worm holes = awesomeness.

Eowyn
02-07-2011, 10:56 PM
Ok, in the spirit of the original post, I was hoping you would indulge another newbie question. I just wanted to pick your brains.

In TGS 'The Last That Can Be Done' Semirhage's final words were that she was betrayed by the DO

Semirage looked utterly shocked. "But...that's impossible..." she said. "I felt nothing. You can't - " She looked up, staring at him with wide eyes. "The True Power. Why have you betrayed me, Great Lord? Why?

Ok, so my question is this: The Forsaken are becoming an extremely limited quantity at this point. Why would the DO think it was worth sacrificing Semirhage just to get Rand to channel TP? I assume the DO knew the situation would end with Rand killing Semirhage with the TP, and we know it was the DO who arranged it since A) he sent Super Fade to free Semirhage and B) only the DO could give Rand access to the TP.

Does the TP corrupt someone thoroughly so by forcing Rand to channel the TP it was a chance to win him to the dark side? On the surface It seems that the plan almost worked judging from Rand's actions in TGS. But I feel it was more to do with Rand almost killing Min than him channeling TP. And the DO couldn't have predicted that Semrhage would make Rand almost kill Min.

Anyway, thoughts on this would be appreciated. Thanks all!

Madgod
02-07-2011, 11:13 PM
In response to Eowyn's question there might be a couple of possibilities:
1.) Since the True Power is so addictive, the DO might have decided it would be worth trying to make Rand addicted to it to have better control over what Rand does. Rand destroying the world is a (major) side bonus.
2.) Rand channeled the true power through Elan, therefore the Dark One didn't realize what was going on.
3.) It was decided that Smirhage screwed up to much and, now that she was broken by Candsuane,was a liability rather than an asset. Easy way to keep her from harming his plans in any way.
I probably missed something but those are my ideas at least.

Terez
02-08-2011, 01:27 AM
Does the TP corrupt someone thoroughly so by forcing Rand to channel the TP it was a chance to win him to the dark side? On the surface It seems that the plan almost worked judging from Rand's actions in TGS. But I feel it was more to do with Rand almost killing Min than him channeling TP. And the DO couldn't have predicted that Semrhage would make Rand almost kill Min.
I believe that almost killing Min was just a part of it. A very important part, but not the whole of it by far. I think he would have been more inclined to face that situation rationally if not for the link with Moridin and the influence of the True Power. It's essentially like touching the essence of the Dark One, and yes, I think it was what caused Rand's psyche to turn to dark. In the same vein, the Min incident was what weakened Rand so much that he used the True Power in the first place, and it broke him in a way that allowed that influence to grow dangerously strong before his return to Dragonmount.

It's not really one or the other, but both the Min incident and the True Power were products of the Semirhage sacrifice, so I'm not sure why you question the cost benefit. Also, it appears as though Moridin is basically an extension of the Dark One's will at this point in some ways, and it also appears as though he works closely with Shaidar Haran, toward the exact same purpose, with no backstabbing or any such. Moridin was extremely pissed off at Semirhage for the hand business. It matters. She was absolutely the perfect person for the task, and her last act was probably her greatest accomplishment since her escape from the Bore. So why not?

GonzoTheGreat
02-08-2011, 05:24 AM
A large part of it was the addictiveness of the TP. Rand countered that by constantly carrying the Choedan Kal thing with him, so as to provide him with yet another immense temptation. Basically he placed himself in the position of Buridan's ass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buridan's_ass). A slight miscalculation, and he would have succumbed to either temptation anyway.
For instance, when he meets the Borderlanders, he mentions that he would have balefired them if he had met them a bit earlier. If that had happened, then Rand probably would not have been able to maintain the balance, and therefor he would have slid over to the Dark Side.

The Immortal One
02-08-2011, 10:18 PM
I assume the DO knew the situation would end with Rand killing Semirhage with the TP, and we know it was the DO who arranged it since A) he sent Super Fade to free Semirhage and B) only the DO could give Rand access to the TP.

Not necessarily. I thought that Shaidar Haran released Semirhage and she thought up the rest herself (It seemed to be her original plan from before she was captured - to put the Domination Band on Rand).

Of course once Rand tried to channel the True Power (if it wasn't channelled through the link with Moridin) the Dark One probably thought "Well, why not? Either Rand fails and is still trapped, captured by one of my Chosen; or he succeeds and becomes addicted to my True Power."

da'caballien
02-09-2011, 01:50 AM
The whole TP thing ended up being quite counterproductive. If Rand hadn't almost killed his father, he probably wouldn't have had his Avatar of Light revelation on Dragonmount.

Terez
02-09-2011, 02:05 AM
Not necessarily. I thought that Shaidar Haran released Semirhage and she thought up the rest herself
Yes, but her actions were incredibly predictable.

GonzoTheGreat
02-09-2011, 05:20 AM
Yes, but her actions were incredibly predictable.Not entirely. If Min had not thrown that knife and actually nicked Semirhage, then she would probably just have taken Rand with her to the Pit of Doom. In that case, things might very well have turned out a bit differently.

Terez
02-11-2011, 05:17 AM
Not entirely. If Min had not thrown that knife and actually nicked Semirhage, then she would probably just have taken Rand with her to the Pit of Doom.
Perhaps. But we are talking about Semirhage, here. Like Verin said: selfish=predictable...and we all know what Semirhage likes.

GonzoTheGreat
02-11-2011, 05:30 AM
Perhaps. But we are talking about Semirhage, here. Like Verin said: selfish=predictable...and we all know what Semirhage likes.Grilled cheese.

Having reread the scene, I noticed that Semirhage planned to first exterminate the AS (and presumably the WOs) who had been involved in her captivity, before she was leaving for Shayol Ghul. That does suggest that there would have been plenty of opportunity for grabbing the TP anyways.
So it is indeed likely that sacrificing her was the plan all along, as Semirhage herself had feared on an earlier occasion:
If the Great Lord meant to make al’Thor Nae’blis, she herself would kneel to him – and wait for a slip to deliver him into her hands. Immortality meant infinite time to wait. There would always be other patients to amuse her in the meantime. What troubled her was Shaidar Haran. She had never been more than an indifferent tcheranplayer, but Shaidar Haran was a new piece on the board, one of unknown strength and purpose. And one daring way to capture your opponent’s High Counselor and turn it to your side was to sacrifice your Spires in a false attack. She would kneel if need be, for as long as need be, but she would not be sacrificed.Come to think of it, the title of that chapter is already fairly telling, in hindsight.