PDA

View Full Version : Recruitment to the Shadow


New Futurist Man
01-13-2011, 11:17 AM
“She Delved deeper. The darkness had tiny, thornlike projections stuck into Naeff’s mind…She carefully used weaves of Spirit to pry one free. It came out with some resistance, and she quickly Healed the spot where it had punctured Naeff’s brain…One by one, she pried the others free. Once she had pried up each and every thorn, she released her new weave. The dark patch undulated and shook, like something alive.
Then it vanished.”
Towers of Midnight, Use a Pebble [page 220]

“The way some of them muttered to themselves, or jumped at shadows, or held their heads and looked dazed. She stood in the very pit of madness itself, and it made her skin creep as if covered in caterpillars.”
Towers of Midnight, Gateways [page 774]

Rand to Naeff: “Tell them that I was wrong. Tell them that we’re not weapons. We’re men. Perhaps it will help. Take care. This could be dangerous….Go in my place, Naeff, for now. I need information.”
“I…Yes, my Lord.” He seemed confused, but he ducked out of the room to obey.
Towers of Midnight, A Testing [page 747]

Interesting fact: Although Shadow Channellers aren’t effected by the Taint’s deleterious nature, presumably they still experience what their Great Lord has done to Saidin. Making Naeff the first male Channeller since the Counterstroke to be entirely freed of the Taint.

Consider the earnest comment by Torval in the superbly moody and revealing chapter in The Path of Daggers, Message from the M’Hael, in response to the Dragon Reborn unintentionally thinking aloud his intention to cleanse Saidin:

“That would be wondrous,” Torval said in a near whisper, “but how could anyone short of the Creator or…?” He trailed off uneasily.
Rand had not realised he had spoken any of his thoughts aloud. Narishma’s eyes, and Morr’s, and Hopwil’s, belonged in one face, shining with sudden hope. Dashiva looked poleaxed.”
The Path of Daggers, Message from the M’Hael [page 343]

Odd that Torval, a darkfriend, would deem the Cleansing of Saidin “wondrous” while Dashiva, another darkfriend was poleaxed by the news. Torval evidently considered the Taint as much of an abomination as Narishma, Hopwil and Morr. Which lends scope as to how men are recruited to the Shadow and the nature of why Torval and possibly others who serve the Shadow chose it in this Age.

Perhaps one of the original incentives for men to join the Shadow was the promise that they would be allowed to wield an unsullied Saidin and not suffer madnnes. But since the Cleansing its no longer something Taim or a Forsaken can bargain with. This could certainly have been the reason for Torval’s turning and possibly many others.

And as its suspected Taim is now turning Asha’man to the Shadow against their will - perhaps this is the only avenue open to him since the Cleansing?

Terez
01-13-2011, 11:21 AM
RJ has spoken some on the recruiting methods - see the Shadow category of the interview database (link in my sig).

Weird Harold
01-13-2011, 11:47 AM
RJ has spoken some on the recruiting methods - see the Shadow category of the interview database (link in my sig).
If you're thinking of the same explanation I am, do those methods still apply? As I recall, he was talking about how DFs were learning that it was just a youthful indescretion fad and the oaths had teeth in them -- talking about Paitr, iirc.

Now that the Forsaken are Free and the Seals are broken I'd be surprised if there were many of Paitr's type of recruit left.

The problem of recruiting male channelers without protection from the Taint as an inducement is a completely different problem. I imagine that Taim deliberately recruited some men already sworn to the shadow.

I'm sure that the Cleansing spoiled some prospects, but I'm not sure I'd attribute that decline as the primary cause of the apparent turn to forced turning as a recruitment tool.

Terez
01-13-2011, 12:29 PM
Yeah, the forced turning is essentially an act of war by its nature because it's not like you can hide these people among the Lightfriends and expect them to pass. Any idiot knows there's something wrong with them.

There is too little description on the new men coming in to say, but I suspect they might have been recruited and trained elsewhere. Once Taim got a certain number of Darkfriends - by the usual methods, presumably; his 10% was half the Black Ajah's percentage - he might have set them to recruiting outside the Black Tower so that it wouldn't draw Rand's attention.

There has been some speculation before that Taim was aggressive in his recruiting of the more powerful channelers, which of course would have led to some refusals - a number of the 'losses in training' might be due to this. It's so similar to Verin's story that it's hard to see the recruiting methods having changed all that much.

I doubt that the grunts were given the Dark One's protection. Taim, probably.

Cor Shan
01-13-2011, 04:33 PM
Another thing to consider is that if all male darkfriend channelers got the protection, with the average unbound channeler living to be like 700 years old, there should be at least a few 500 year old guys running around, since without the madness the Red Ajah would have trouble finding them.

Of course, the Kin managed to hide themselves, but slinking around pretending to be a doctor isn't exactly in line with the DO's MO. (unless they're chilling in the Blight bossing around Trollocs, which matches the Maradon fight)

Uno
01-13-2011, 04:47 PM
Another thing to consider is that if all male darkfriend channelers got the protection, with the average unbound channeler living to be like 700 years old, there should be at least a few 500 year old guys running around, since without the madness the Red Ajah would have trouble finding them.

There may have been no effort to enlist male channelers when Ishamael was not active on the scene, that is, from the end of Hawkwing's reign until a few decades before the story starts. At that point, I sort of imagine that the Black Ajah ran itself, the fades bossed the trollocs around, and Darkfriend circles did their thing with occasional interference from the fades. Without any Forsaken to take the helm of the ship, there might not have been any coherent policy toward male channelers for centuries. I'm not even sure Ishamael was interested in gathering male channelers in Hawkwing's lifetime. His plans at the time did not involve another Trolloc war, as I understand it. Hawkwing defeated an invasion of trollocs at some point, but were there any Dreadlords with them? People only mention Dreadlords in the context of the Trolloc Wars, not later. The Shadow may not have recruited male channelers for two thousand years.

One Armed Gimp
01-14-2011, 08:48 AM
Odd that Torval, a darkfriend, would deem the Cleansing of Saidin “wondrous” while Dashiva, another darkfriend was poleaxed by the news.

Dashiva's reaction is really not that odd.

Now him expressing wonder and amazement would have been.

New Futurist Man
01-14-2011, 09:45 AM
No Dashiva's reaction is exactly what you'd expect from a servant of the Shadow, any "oddness" is definitely with Torval's reaction and why he'd find the healing of the Counterstroke "wondrous".

As has been said above, a grunt like Torval may not have been privy to anything more special than being protected from the madness of Tainted Saidin by agreeing to serve the Shadow, which isn't much if weighed against what he was forsaking - so a Saidin now Taint-free as a consequence of the Dragon's actions, may have been reason enough for him, and others, to forgo there oaths to the Shadow. Who knows.

One Armed Gimp
01-14-2011, 10:01 AM
I don't think Torval's reaction is odd either.

Not that I think a dissection of Torval and Dashiva's reactions are necessary to support your premise, but you really are comparing apples to oranges.

Torval has been affected by the Taint. Dashiva has never been exposed to it. Torval's reaction is pretty much what I would expect from any male channeler from this Age. Dashiva's is what you would expect of a male channeler that has never had to channel tainted Saidin and has always been protected. I mean Torval is a young new channeler, Dashiva is a Forsaken. Do you expect all new df's to act as a Forsaken does?

New Futurist Man
01-14-2011, 10:52 AM
Apples to oranges? The theory's premised on the notion both are protected from the madness-inducing effects of the Taint - not just Dashiva.

"dissection" is a tad strong. I'm merely employing the disparity in their reactions to illustrate my point regarding recruitment to the Shadow.

One Armed Gimp: Torval has been affected by the Taint.
I disagree. I think for effectiveness and, most importantly, reliability, the Dark One shields all Shadow channellers. Why take the chance of their going mad? Weiramon was also somehow connected to the Dark One in a way Rand could detect - so its probable all darkfriends are. Rand says as much to Min after ejecting Weiramon.

One Armed Gimp: I mean Torval is a young new channeler, Dashiva is a Forsaken. Do you expect all new df's to act as a Forsaken does?

Firstly, Torval isn't (or wasn't) a "young new channeller", though he may have only been channelling fairly recently - which is debatable - he was in fact in his middle years, plus he must've been amongst the highest ranking Shadow channellers in the Black Tower as he was given command of the Asha'man to fight the Seanchan. And, significantly, he was also amongst those trusted with executing the Dragon in the Sun Palace - an order which came from high up. So the competency is evident.

Secondly, it wasn't an "act" but an earnest reaction from both Torval and Dashiva. In other words zero dissembling and highly illuminating regarding what they thought of the Dragon's admission.

And the point to remember: Torval's admission was surprising because of hindsight, but it was also in keeping with how any male channeller would react to the Cleansing of Saidin. Or in normal circumstances should react. It was Dashiva who let his mask slip.

One Armed Gimp
01-14-2011, 11:04 AM
I disagree. I think for effectiveness and, most importantly, reliability, the Dark One shields all Shadow channellers.

Absolutely, but we do not for certain whether Troval had ever channeled without that protection and was therefore exposed to the taint.


Firstly, Torval isn't (or wasn't) a "young new channeller", though he may have only been channelling fairly recently - which is debatable - he was in fact in his middle years, plus he must've been amongst the highest ranking Shadow channellers in the Black Tower as he was given command of the Asha'man to fight the Seanchan. And, significantly, he was also amongst those trusted with executing the Dragon in the Sun Palace - an order which came from high up. So the competency is evident.

The "young new channeller" was in relation to Dashiva, not a statement on his actual age in the book.

Secondly, it wasn't an "act" but an earnest reaction from both Torval and Dashiva. In other words zero dissembling and highly illuminating regarding what they thought of the Dragon's admission.

And the point to remember: Torval's admission was surprising because of hindsight, but it was also in keeping with how any male channeller would react to the Cleansing of Saidin. Or in normal circumstances should react. It was Dashiva who let his mask slip.

Ok, so I go back to my original posts, what is odd about their reactions?

"dissection" is a tad strong. I'm merely employing the disparity in their reactions to illustrate my point regarding recruitment to the Shadow.

A disparity in their reactions is to be expected and understood, its also not needed to push your point forward, only Torval's reaction is necessary.

I was merely curious why you thought the disparity was odd.

New Futurist Man
01-14-2011, 11:15 AM
What isn't "odd" about Torval reacting positively to news the wound his Great Lord had inflicted upon Saidin might be healed?

New Futurist Man: Torval evidently considered the Taint as much of an abomination as Narishma, Hopwil and Morr. Which lends scope as to how men are recruited to the Shadow and the nature of why Torval and possibly others who serve the Shadow chose it in this Age.

Perhaps one of the original incentives for men to join the Shadow was the promise that they would be allowed to wield an unsullied Saidin and not suffer madnnes. But since the Cleansing its no longer something Taim or a Forsaken can bargain with. This could certainly have been the reason for Torval’s turning and possibly many others.

And as its suspected Taim is now turning Asha’man to the Shadow against their will - perhaps this is the only avenue open to him since the Cleansing?

One Armed Gimp
01-14-2011, 12:33 PM
I guess I can see where you are going with this. Why would he express wonder at it when its a blow against his "leader"?

GonzoTheGreat
01-14-2011, 03:19 PM
Well, DF would also care most about themselves, wouldn't they? So for them too the ability to channel without the Taint would seem a good deal.

Fie
01-15-2011, 06:00 AM
To me there seems to be no reason to think that the reaction on the "good news" from the df channelers had to be same. Could be as many different reactions as reasons why each one of them became a df channeler. For example, say some people became criminals to get a certain else unavailable medicine against a disease of theirs, and, wondrously, the medicine suddenly becames available to everyone, surely there would be different reactions. One would look happy thinking "At least, no need for decent folk to become df just for that medicine", one would look envious, thinking "damn, why did I have to become this, while all future channelers will live happily ever after, I hate them all", one will look relieved thinking "thank the light, my son wonīt have to become a criminal or die, when the disease gets him, too, now I can die in peace" etc. etc.
So I think the reaction would correspond with the motivation of which they did become darkfriend channelers, so could be the same, but wouldnīt have to be the same for everyone. Dashiva of course, is another thing. To me his looking poleaxed isnīt because of pure love for the DO or his taint, of course, but because probably heīs convinced since long that he took the right (i.e. the winnerīs) side and suddenly there comes a blow to this conviction, as he realizes that maybe someone who can do THAT might as well do other impossible things, e.g. winning TG, defeating the DO...

subwoofer
01-16-2011, 06:20 PM
I dunno, I think another selling point for the guys in black hats is the really really long lifespan. The Aes Sedai, for all intents and purposes live a few hundred years. The carrot the Forsaken may dangle is that they are thousands of years old. Some people fear the grave, even if it is a long time off. Some folks want immortality. Maybe that is what the DO peddles? Who wants to live forever?- The baddies.

And the White Tower Oaths blow too. Freedom from that could be another thing. I know the Asha'man have nothing like that right now, but down the road?... This also ties in with the long life thing.

And maybe some folks like to wear black. I hear it is very slimming:)

nameless
01-16-2011, 06:33 PM
I'm reminded of some of the interview database's quotes regarding the Eye of the World. It was considered a prize among the Forsaken even though they didn't really have to worry about the taint, because using the Eye would mean they didn't have to use the Dark One's filter. As long as they relied on the filter, the Dark One knew about every time they touched the Power. Freedom from that kind of surveillance gives them the opportunity to pursue their own backstabbing selfish agendas without worrying about what the boss will think.

Though I'd agree that Torval's wonderment is a little stronger of a reaction that you'd expect if it were just an issue of unwanted surveillance. Maybe access to the filter is something that's held over their heads as an incentive rather than handed out as soon as they sign on?

GonzoTheGreat
01-17-2011, 04:43 AM
Even with the filter, the Forsaken noticed the Taint:
"One of your play pretties?" a woman's voice said behind him as the carved door closed. "Have you taken to dressing them like that?"
Snatching at saidin, he filled himself with the Power, the taint on the male half of the True Source rolling off the protection of his bonds and oaths, the ties to what he knew as a greater power than the Light, or even the Creator.If they notice it, then they definitely also notice how horrible it is. Thus, they would clearly have some benefit from having the Taint gone entirely, as then they could have the good experience of channeling without having the bad topping of Taint.

Juan
01-17-2011, 12:35 PM
The whole saidin taint protection the Forsaken had makes me wonder.

If you could protect against the DO's taint of saidin using.. the DO, then how about protecting against the nasty little side effects of the True Power? ... using.... the DO as well.

GonzoTheGreat
01-18-2011, 03:59 AM
The whole saidin taint protection the Forsaken had makes me wonder.

If you could protect against the DO's taint of saidin using.. the DO, then how about protecting against the nasty little side effects of the True Power? ... using.... the DO as well.Good point, but then, the Forsaken could not protect themselves against the Taint. Instead, the DO protected them.
In the same way, the DO might be capable of protecting them against the side effects of the TP. But what's in it for him?

Fie
01-18-2011, 05:38 AM
Thatīs a good question. Well, why would he. Letīs take side effect "saa",shall we? You could think it would be wiser to counter saa, so that not even the last idiot in WoT could identify Moridin as a baddie, then again, maybe the DO thinks, if Moridin has need not to be seen as that he shall take precautions himself and for the DO that side effect is not unwanted per se, because itīs a means of showing his own and his minions power to everybody to legitimate Moridin as Naeīblis etc. Maybe he sees it like there are some good, some bad side effects and so he just doesnīt bother. Then again it could be that he not wouldnīt but couldnīt. Itīs really sad we know so little of the TP, I hope there will be some more disclosures in the last book. The DO was able to "taint" the OP, but I donīt think he created this TP by himself. After all, itīs the Creatorīs job to create, I guess, the DO can taint, contort, destroy, whatever, but I donīt think itīs in his power to create something like the TP. He may call it "HIS" power, but I think heīs lying :p

Weird Harold
01-18-2011, 07:15 AM
Itīs really sad we know so little of the TP, I hope there will be some more disclosures in the last book. The DO was able to "taint" the OP, but I donīt think he created this TP by himself. After all, itīs the Creatorīs job to create, I guess, the DO can taint, contort, destroy, whatever, but I donīt think itīs in his power to create something like the TP. He may call it "HIS" power, but I think heīs lying :p

The Gathering Storm confirmed the consensus opinion about the source/nature True Power:

At that moment he grew aware of a strange force. It was like a reservoir of water, boiling and churning just beyond his view. He reached toward it with his mind.

A clouded face flashed before Rand's own, one whose features he couldn't quite make out. It was gone in a moment.

And Rand found himself filled with an alien power. Not saidin, not saidar, but something else.
Something he'd never felt before.

Oh, Light, Lews Therin suddenly screamed. That's impossible! We can't use it! Cast it away! That is death we hold, death and betrayal.
It is HIM.

Rand closed his eyes as he knelt above Min, then he channeled the strange, unknown force. Energy and
life surged through him, a torrent of power like saidin, only ten times as sweet and a hundred times as
violent. It made him alive, made him realize that he'd never been alive before. It gave him such strength as he'd never imagined. It rivaled, even, the power he'd held when drawing from the Choedan Kal.

He screamed, in both rapture and rage, and wove enormous spears of Fire and Air. He slammed the
weaves against the collar at his neck, and the room exploded with flames and bits of molten metal, each one distinct to Rand. He could feel each shard of metal blast away from his neck, warping the air with its heat, trailing smoke as it hit a wall or the floor. He opened his eyes and released Min. She gasped and
sobbed.

Rand stood and turned, white-hot magma in his veins5as when Semirhage had tortured him, yet
somehow opposite. As painful as this was, it was also pure ecstasy.

Semirhage looked utterly shocked. "But . . . that's impossible . . ." she said. "I felt nothing. You can't..."

She looked up, staring at him with wide eyes. "The True Power. Why have you betrayed me, Great Lord? Why?"

Semirhage confirms that what Rand Channeled was the True Power and LTT flatly stated what the True Power IS -- It is HIM!

The DO did not create the True Power, He IS the True Power

ETA: check the interview database. I'm pretty sure RJ addressed the question of why the DO doesn't provide protection again the side efeects of the TP -- given the nature of the True Power as the essence of the DO himself, I think you can probably guess.

Juan
01-18-2011, 02:20 PM
So that those who use the TP because of its addictiveness will cease from using the OP if there were no harmful side effects. This would create a much greater dependency on the DO and his powers.

Or, maybe the DO would benefit in this regard because his valuable pawns such as Moridin, who is Nae'blis, would live longer, or anything along those lines.

Of course, there can also be downsides to this..

If the DO can prevent the taint which is something he caused, then I'm sure he can prevent the effects/saa of the TP, which is something he also causes.

Granted, the question then becomes why the DO would/wouldn't.

Madgod
01-18-2011, 02:58 PM
Well, if the DO is concerned with the destruction of everything, I doubt he's that worried about random minion #42 or whatever. Remember that the True Power drives the user mad then kills them - unless the DO also grants you immortality (per RJ quotes). So in a sense he protects you from the worst of the side effects if he likes you.

Juan
01-18-2011, 03:03 PM
Except Moridin, for example, is Nae'Blis. He isn't a random minion. He is the Shadow's champion. If you use the TP a lot but he grants you immortality, you may live forever, but you'll still be insane and probably not very pleasing to look at. To someone such as Graendal, Lanfear, and Ravhin (were he still around), this would be very important.

I'd rather be sane, and retain my looks, and be immortal, than be insane, deformed, and immortal. That just sounds like torture, I'd rather be dead in that situation.

Which raises the question, it seems like Nynaeve could heal madness... Can the DO do the same for Moridin? This actually raises another question. Can the TP be used to Heal? Likely so, but if so, how would this differ from a Healing done by the OP?

looqas
01-19-2011, 02:24 AM
Interesting thought popped up.

If DO is True Power then maybe Creator is One Power.

Ying and Yang thing... Not Saidin and Saidar as we all assume in the Aes Sedai logo but One Power and True Power. Like matter and anti-matter.

Fie
01-19-2011, 02:33 AM
Which raises the question, it seems like Nynaeve could heal madness... Can the DO do the same for Moridin? This actually raises another question. Can the TP be used to Heal? Likely so, but if so, how would this differ from a Healing done by the OP?

In the prologue of tEoTW Ishidin did "heal" LTT so he should see what he did to his kin. He said something along the lines of "You wonīt like my kind of healing" etc. In retrospection I take this to be because he heales him with the TP.

Fie
01-19-2011, 02:46 AM
The Gathering Storm confirmed the consensus opinion about the source/nature True Power:



Semirhage confirms that what Rand Channeled was the True Power and LTT flatly stated what the True Power IS -- It is HIM!

The DO did not create the True Power, He IS the True Power

ETA: check the interview database. I'm pretty sure RJ addressed the question of why the DO doesn't provide protection again the side efeects of the TP -- given the nature of the True Power as the essence of the DO himself, I think you can probably guess.

I see your reasoning, but I donīt saw that "It is HIM!" as TP=DO, well, in some sense of course TP=DO, but not, well, I donīt know how to explain it well, more DO^=TP. I just took it to stress how shocked LTT was of Rand using the TP, because he himself never did and because TP is,hm,congruent with DO, "It is HIM" quite makes sense to me.

The database, yes, Iīm afraid Iīm rather bad at database etc. things. Iīd rather that you could get everything out of the "real text", but probably I should get accustomed to have a look at additional sources as well...

looquas, yes, that thought has to come along, if one says DO=TP. But I rather think that RJ would have the Creator as the almighty entity/power and without Creator there wouldnīt be a DO/TP, so ultimately the Creator would be the OP but as well the TP. Probably doesnīt make sense to anybody but me and can be negated by some interview or twitter, but well, Iīm not easily offended... ;)

sorry, messed up with multi-quote :(

Weird Harold
01-19-2011, 03:16 AM
If DO is True Power then maybe Creator is One Power.

Probably correct. Not the entire Creator, but some of his essence/nature left behind to maintain things.

I see your reasoning, but I donīt saw that "It is HIM!" as TP=DO, well, in some sense of course TP=DO, but not, well, I donīt know how to explain it well, more DO^=TP.

As I said, that comment is taken as confirmation of deductions from clues almost as early as the beginning of tEotW.

looquas, yes, that thought has to come along, if one says DO=TP. But I rather think that RJ would have the Creator as the almighty entity/power and without Creator there wouldnīt be a DO/TP, so ultimately the Creator would be the OP but as well the TP.

The DO and Creator are pretty well established as equals or near-equals who exist independently of each other outside of the Wheel of Time. There is a bare hint of the fall of Lucifer in the cosmology, but "Bound by the Creator at the moment of Creation" strongly suggests that the DO xisted before Creation -- insofar as "before" can be applied to the timeless state outside of the constrainst of Time.

Enigma
01-19-2011, 04:12 PM
The True Power is the Dark One or at least part of him. Lanfear detected the True Power and was able to learn enought of it to know that both men and women could both use it and thus get over the limitations of the male and female halfs of the One Power, which in turn caused the bore to be drilled but the Guide pretty much said that what they were sensing was the Dark One.

Going back a bit on the dark recruiters offering protection from the taint to male channelers was this always available. I seem to recall RJ when dealing with why Aginore was so hot to get his hands on untainted saidin from the Eye of the World he also said that the protection had only just been put in place for the two forsaken.

That could mean that they only received their protection after escaping the bore or it could mean that the protection was a new thing that the DO had only just came up with because not of his special chosen needed it before and he did not care enought about the lessor dreadlords to go to the effort. Not to mention the seals were a lot stronger and the DO was not able to touch the world as much back years ago.

Lastly if there was no proteciton before the seals weakened enough for Aginor and co to get out and the DO could mess with the world was that why Ishamael used the True Power so much because he could not use the One Power on his temportary 40 year releases as he would have gone even madder that he was if he used the OP?

Cor Shan
01-19-2011, 08:44 PM
I thought that was pretty obvious :cool:

Kimon
01-19-2011, 09:50 PM
In the prologue of tEoTW Ishidin did "heal" LTT so he should see what he did to his kin. He said something along the lines of "You wonīt like my kind of healing" etc. In retrospection I take this to be because he heales him with the TP.

Yeah, seems likely from the actual phrasing that what he used was indeed TP:

But I fear Shai'tan's healing is different from the sort you know.

Only possible uncertainty is if we should take Shai'tan literally as TP, of if it might just be a reference to the type of healing that the Shadow teaches. I think that the former is much more likely but herein lies the caveat:

Flinn (while healing Rand) ACoS Ch. 36:

...the M'Hael taught me Healing. And other things. A rough sort of Healing; I was Healed by an Aes Sedai once - oh, nigh on thirty years back now - and this hurts, compared to that. Works as well, though.

Fie
01-20-2011, 03:10 AM
Ah, yes. I took that as Taim doesnīt care that his healing hurts, but I think itīs OP-healing nonetheless. I canīt imagine that he goes around teaching TP-things to "random" ashaman. First, they would have to be "allowed" using it, second, Taim doesnīt seem to be the one to share his advantages too freely. And AS/Ashaman would sense that theres something wrong if Flinn would use TP-healing, wouldnīt they?
Of course, it could be that nearing "the end" anybody and his dog will be let in the exclusive TP-wielders-club, I donīt know, never thought about that. I will, now. :)

Kimon
01-20-2011, 03:49 PM
Ah, yes. I took that as Taim doesnīt care that his healing hurts, but I think itīs OP-healing nonetheless. I canīt imagine that he goes around teaching TP-things to "random" ashaman. First, they would have to be "allowed" using it, second, Taim doesnīt seem to be the one to share his advantages too freely. And AS/Ashaman would sense that theres something wrong if Flinn would use TP-healing, wouldnīt they?
Of course, it could be that nearing "the end" anybody and his dog will be let in the exclusive TP-wielders-club, I donīt know, never thought about that. I will, now. :)

No. What Taim taught Flinn was clearly not TP Healing. The question is whether this is a OP variant of Healing that is puposefully rough. What Taim taught to Flinn was definitely rough, but definitely OP- Flinn is a good guy, so clearly wouldn't have ever had access to TP.

Keep in mind, while what Elan Morin used on Lews Therin may well have been TP (it certainly would make sense considering that Elan Morin seems to make almost exclusive use of TP), that doesn't negate the fact that Taim seems to have been long a protege of Ishamael, so it's not unreasonable to posit that this rough Healing that he learned, and passed on to the asha'man, was a weave that he may have learned from Ishamael. The other possibility is that it was a self-taught weave, and thus clumsy, but effective. But Semirhage used a rough sort of Healing in the AoL that was effective but which also was slightly painful for the person being healed. Perhaps this weave that Taim taught Flinn (and which Flinn later discarded when he began self-teaching himself, perhaps with the aid of some hints by Aginor/Dashiva, a better form of Healing), is a sort of male version of the Sadist School of Healing Weaves.

That of course only addresses the Taim/Flinn problem, doesn't really solve the issue of what Elan used on Lews Therin. I still think that TP was likely there, but brought up Flinn's comment about the sort of Healing that he had learned from Taim to point out that it is not completely implausible that Elan Morin may have just been referring to a sadistic, but OP, style of Healing in that passage from the EotW Prologue.

Fie
01-21-2011, 02:56 AM
Now I get your point, sorry, I misunderstood.
We canīt know for sure, but I think (maybe Iīve been reading too much of the foreshadowing-threads lately ;) )itīs rather the TP, because LTT would have known that there is some rough-kind OP-healing or if Elan was a loser in healing. So no need to specifically warn him that heīs not going to like his healing. Thatīs my view of course, but I do think the words of the prologue are clear "Shaitanīs healing" "I follow a different power now" "the light dimmed as if a shadow had been laid across the sun".

Zombie Sammael
01-21-2011, 03:24 AM
Is it possible that "Shai'tan's healing" in the TEOTW prologue was some sort of effort on the Shadow's part to further taint the Dragon? Might it be a clue to explaining how Rand was able to draw on the TP? i.e. he'd made contact with it before passively, and so was able to do so actively when he needed to? Perhaps that's what Rand meant about having had the ability to channel TP for a while - he's had it since TEOTW prologue.

Weird Harold
01-21-2011, 04:09 AM
The other possibility is that it was a self-taught weave, and thus clumsy, but effective. But Semirhage used a rough sort of Healing in the AoL that was effective but which also was slightly painful for the person being healed.

As far as I know, Semirhage is the only Forsaken who is an outright Sadist. Her healing in the AOL was not "slightly painful" is was as painful as the patient could survive -- and on occasion, if the patient wasn't important enough for heirs to cause a fuss, even more painful.

I would guess that the Healing Taim taught Flinn was self-taught, and no more refined than absolutely necessary; Taim doesn't seem to particularly mindful of or careful with his minions' health.

Since Semirhage, in the moments before her extinction, said she had "almost forgotten the trick" of Channeling Saidin, it is remotely possible that Semirhage taught Taim his painful Healing weave. She was the best qualified Healer among the Forsaken and sometimes Healed as leader of a Circle, she would be the logical choice for instructing any 3rd Age DF Healing tricks.

Juan
01-21-2011, 12:53 PM
In the example of LTT being healed by Ishamael... When he'd said you won't like my kind of healing and that.. I didn't think he used the TP or gave LTT some pain like Semirhage did when she healed. I took it to mean that in that situation, the "healing" he gave LTT was not really a healing in the sense that now he could see all the damage he had done and all the people and loved ones he'd killed and hence why LTT wouldn't like it.

Weird Harold
01-21-2011, 02:42 PM
When he'd said you won't like my kind of healing and that.. I didn't think he used the TP or gave LTT some pain ...

This is what the book says:

Tossing back his black cloak, Elan Morin flexed his hands. "A pity for you," he mused, "that one of your Sisters is not here. I was never very skilled at Healing, and I follow a different power now. But even one of them could only give you a few lucid minutes, if you did not destroy her first. What I can do will serve as well, for my purposes." His sudden smile was cruel. "But I fear Shai'tan's healing is different from the sort you know. Be healed, Lews Therin!" He extended his hands, and the light dimmed as if a shadow had been laid across the sun.

Pain blazed in Lews Therin, and he screamed, a scream that came from his depths, a scream he could not stop. Fire seared his marrow; acid rushed along his veins. He toppled backwards, crashing to the marble floor; his head struck the stone and rebounded. His heart pounded, trying to beat its way out of his chest, and every pulse gushed new flame through him. Helplessly he convulsed, thrashing, his skull a sphere of purest agony on the point of bursting. His hoarse screams reverberated through the palace.


I really don't see how that can be construed as anything but the TP and painful.

Juan
01-21-2011, 02:47 PM
Can't say I'm completely convinced as to that specific example.

But as I said before. I do think the TP healing would be much rougher than OP healing.

Enigma
01-21-2011, 03:26 PM
The True Power seems to be inherently distructive given the way it can destroy heartstone and the way one travels using it tears at the pattern. It stands to reason that if its used to heal it probably hurts.

As far as Semirhage teaching any of the Asha'man the forsaken are very reluctant to teach any of the current age chanelers. Mesaana and Alviarin is as far as I can recall the only example of this and Alviarin was pretty much under the thumb of the forsaken. Would Semirhage teach Asha'man who she had no real control over?

GonzoTheGreat
01-21-2011, 03:29 PM
I think that Taim and his pupils actually learned Healing in the way they claimed they did: by trying to duplicate what they had witnessed AS doing, or what they had heard AS could do.
Imagine someone learning dentistry in that manner, and I'm sure at least some of you can believe that the resulting method could be a tad painful. Convincing you lot that it could be effective I'll leave up as an exercise for Terez, I think. Gives her something to do.

Weird Harold
01-21-2011, 03:35 PM
Can't say I'm completely convinced as to that specific example.

How can you not be?

Or maybe I should ask, what exactly aren't you convinced of?

Juan
01-21-2011, 04:30 PM
Like I said I just see it as the actual result being unpleasant. Not necessarily the process. (in that case).

The Immortal One
01-22-2011, 03:36 AM
How could you not be convinced that that particular instance is an example of True Power Healing?

The parts he specifically bolded are the "Shai'tan's Healing" and "shadow had been laid across the sun". How could that be anything but the True Power? Is there anywhere in the books where use of Saidin (the only other way for Ishamael to Heal) caused a shadow?

"But I fear Shai'tan's healing is different from the sort you know. Be healed, Lews Therin!" He extended his hands, and the light dimmed as if a shadow had been laid across the sun.

subwoofer
01-22-2011, 08:02 AM
The Gathering Storm confirmed the consensus opinion about the source/nature True Power:



Semirhage confirms that what Rand Channeled was the True Power and LTT flatly stated what the True Power IS -- It is HIM!

The DO did not create the True Power, He IS the True Power

ETA: check the interview database. I'm pretty sure RJ addressed the question of why the DO doesn't provide protection again the side efeects of the TP -- given the nature of the True Power as the essence of the DO himself, I think you can probably guess.

Well then... so Rand used the TP to heal Min. Will that have any fallout or negative effect on her or is Healing Healing? The pain in the process is dependent on the type of Power used but the end result is the same.

Any way you slice it- LTT being Healed or Min being Healed are both prime examples of the DO's power at work... in a twisted way.

Enigma
01-22-2011, 11:05 AM
I was under the impression that LTT had to have been healed with the True Power. When he died he was lucid all be it in shock, destressed and in super grief over his wife. The One Power could not be used to heal madness at least not before Nynaeve came along. If it could there would not have been any breaking as the male AS could have been healed by their female counterparts.

Juan
01-22-2011, 11:39 AM
Well, just because people then didn't know how to do it doesn't mean that it couldn't be done. Also, it's possible that a person, or even a few people may have known how but simply were too few, too weak, killed off by the madmen when they attempted to heal them, or simply refused to use their knowledge in this regard and place themselves in danger... or whatever the reasons. It's kinda like now.. only Nynaeve knows how to Heal madness. It's not like everyone knows it. And far as I remember not many people even know it can even be done yet. So I mean you could theoretically claim that it could be done back the AOL.

Enigma
01-22-2011, 11:56 AM
Yes it could have been done but how likely was it that Ishamael knew how to do it. Firstly I don't recall ever seeing him referred to as one of the top healers. Like LTT healing was just not one of his tallents.

Secondly the male half had only just been tainted. LTT survived the sealing but went mad and returned to his family. I don't know if there much of a gap between the sealing at the prologue but the impression I had was that a few weeks at the very most had passed not years. Could a cure have been invented that fast?

Ishamael seemed surprised at the state LTT was in and appeared to have come simply to gloat and show his enemy that the Light had not won after all. Finding himself talking to a mad man he had to heal him if he was to get the satisfaction he wanted.

GonzoTheGreat
01-22-2011, 11:58 AM
On the other hand, Ishamael may have known what the Taint actually was, from conversation with the one that made it.

The Immortal One
01-22-2011, 01:34 PM
From what Ishamael said when he Healed Lews Therin Telamon (something along the lines of "what I can do will suffice for my purposes") it implies that Ishamael could not entirely Heal the madness; but could only give Lews Therin temporary sanity - long enough to realise what he had done before Ishamael killed him (because Ishamael wanted him to endure the extra emotional pain because he is a vengeful ... uh... person).

Cor Shan
01-24-2011, 02:25 AM
Don't know if someone's mentioned it, but maybe Rand is only protected from the Taint right now because he's all Dragon'd up; when he survives he'll probably rebound to pre-TGS levels of insanity.

Enigma
01-24-2011, 09:22 AM
Don't know if someone's mentioned it, but maybe Rand is only protected from the Taint right now because he's all Dragon'd up; when he survives he'll probably rebound to pre-TGS levels of insanity.

At the risk of reopening the whole "what is the nature of the taint" arguement my take was that the tain broke down the barriers between the Dragon's past life as LTT. Rand has now sucessuflly integrated that portion of his personality/memories into his mind so that even if he stops being ta'avern and retires at savour of the world until the next age he should still be sane.